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Now before everybody shouts "SIDIOUS HE'S STATED TO BE THE MOST POWERFUL SITH!!!!!!!" Remember that "most powerful sith" just means that Sidious > Bane, not that Sidious > Bane with ORBALISKS on.

Luke is the most powerful jedi, but that doesn't mean that Luke > an average padawan with the imperial fleet at his command.

So who wins, and please use feats/evidence, not "Sidious is the most poweful sith" because that quote doesn't take the Obalisks into account.

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

And oh, I'm still undecided as to who wins. Haven't read RoT, but I've read PoD.

Not to mention that it could easily be referring to power in the Force specifically (among other things, some of which that have no relation to combat or ability with the Force, and even that's assuming that the canonicity and infallibility of the sources can even be confirmed, but we don't have to get into that right now) which doesn't take into account control over the Force, an area where Bane is on paper completely unrivalled in.

Bane in a stomp.

RotS Sidious' lightning was enough to take on the most powerful foe the Darkness has ever known. This is no Bane stomp.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
RotS Sidious' lightning was enough to take on the most powerful foe the Darkness has ever known. This is no Bane stomp.

Of course not, but is it a Sidious WIN?

And oh yeah, you shouldn't talk to Nebaris, remember? I wonder if I should report you...

Bane vs Sidious No excuse for this one.

That thread said that "feats cannot be applied here." In this thread, I am trying to tell to people to ignore the "Sidious is the most powerful sith ever!" quotes from sources because this is Bane with ORBALISKS, which changes things up a bit: Coloman Trebor (sp?) with a fleet at his command can still beat Yoda "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known", because the quote doesn't take into account outside objects such as Orbalisks or fleets.

In other words, let's discuss in this thread who's better based on feats, and maybe some quotes.

We do that anyways.

*Sigh*

*sigh*

Can you guys please just debate?

I'd say that Sidious wins after a hard fight, but I haven't read RoT so my opinion isn't really substantiated.

Debate? This has been done before... We all consider Bane his Orbs to be part of his, it's more likely to say no Orbies than say with Orbies. Only tools like Nebaris would say Bane wins.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Debate? This has been done before... We all consider Bane his Orbs to be part of his, it's more likely to say no Orbies than say with Orbies. Only tools like Nebaris would say Bane wins.

That's entirely reasonable, but can you guys find feats that Sidious acomplished that trump Bane's? Not saying that Bane wins, just wondering.

Bane all the way. No, its close but I think Bane does win. I don't by that Sidious quote crap and even if the quotes are taken as total fact, it could just as easily be referring to different incarnations of Sidious, or his political and military power, not his combat ability.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Bane all the way. No, its close but I think Bane does win. I don't by that Sidious quote crap and even if the quotes are taken as total fact, it could just as easily be referring to different incarnations of Sidious, or his political and military power, not his combat ability.

You have got to be kidding me. You're only 2-3 years behind with this retarded logic.

Guys, can you say HOW Bane wins/HOW Sidious wins?

Sidious fries Banes' orbalisks? That is one idea.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You have got to be kidding me. You're only 2-3 years behind with this retarded logic.

I am not going to revert to falling back to quotes in order to try and make an argument. I still stick to the "retarded logic" which is better than no logic at all.

Originally posted by truejedi
Sidious fries Banes' orbalisks? That is one idea.

Proof that Sidious can get through Bane's defenses (lightsaber, Force shield, orbalisks, and his own resistance to pain)? Not saying that he can't, I've read PoD but not RoT. PoD Bane obviously gets tooled, but RoT Bane w/Orbalisks IDK since I don't have the book.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I am not going to revert to falling back to quotes in order to try and make an argument. I still stick to the "retarded logic" which is better than no logic at all. The quote was refering to his battle with Yoda. What does that have to do with political power?

So basically, you want us to debate about how Sidious would win, but you want to ignore all the evidence that supports it? Hm...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The quote was refering to his battle with Yoda. What does that have to do with political power?

Wait what? The quote I was referring to is about how he is the greatest Sith ever. That doesn't automatically refer to his combat ability.

But there were plenty of quotes that did. Advent and Gideon have posted them numerous times.

I know that. And like I said, I don't think quotes can always override in-universe evidence.

An out of universe quote from writers and creators (that write and create the in-universe stories) is not good enough? So if Lucas were to say, "At the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful Jedi around." then we aren't to take that as canon? Come on Glentract, you know better than that.

I've said many times that I don't buy that crap. It isn't good enough for me.

But a narrator stating something is Canon. And Canon > you.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Proof that Sidious can get through Bane's defenses (lightsaber, Force shield, orbalisks, and his own resistance to pain)? Not saying that he can't, I've read PoD but not RoT. PoD Bane obviously gets tooled, but RoT Bane w/Orbalisks IDK since I don't have the book. Well the orbalisks have a severe weakness to lightning according to ROT and sidious lightning is probably the strongest in the mythos so....

You should know the rest.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
But a narrator stating something is Canon. And Canon > you.

Depends on what you personally see as canon. I don't agree that what a narrator, author, or even GL says. If its not proven in-universe, then it doesn't matter to me. That's not the policy on the forum, so I won't make a big deal out of it, but it is how I think.

Would it make sense if george lucas stated that anakin was actually a women than a man?

Well unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, and makes absolutely no sense. You want something proven by fictional characters, but won't accept the word of the real people that create said fiction.

I know this sounds dumb but what if lucas made claims that sidious was actually female and that yoda was the female of his species....

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, and makes absolutely no sense. You want something proven by fictional characters, but won't accept the word of the real people that create said fiction.

Look to the fiction itself, not the creator.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I am not going to revert to falling back to quotes in order to try and make an argument. I still stick to the "retarded logic" which is better than no logic at all.

Except the quotes are logical. Claiming "lolz political power" was laughed off this forum years before I even got here.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Look to the fiction itself, not the creator. Not your decision to make. Those three new members from a few weeks ago wanted to use their imagination as a means of debate. Too bad we follow the accepted canon of Star Wars here. They left and probably went to look for other forums which don't follow this one's rules.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wait what? The quote I was referring to is about how he is the greatest Sith ever. That doesn't automatically refer to his combat ability.

The quote I was refering to said he was the most POWERFUL in history. The NEC guide. It said something like... "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful sith lord in history".

Yea I think it was Janus or Nai or one of those guys that cried "LOLZ POLITICAL POWER", when that quote was given.

So i'm just jumpin in right now and i probably wont stick around to see the end of this thread but so far I got that glentrac doesn't agree with canon because an in-universe explanation in his opinion overrides canon.

My 2 cents if it's worth anything is this/ GL stated there are 3 worlds of starwars and his world which is everything from 32 BBY-6ABY, there's the EU which is everything else and then theres the fans imagination.

so in this case glentract is right as to what canon is to him in the sense that whatever he wants to make him enjoy SW more is ok. BUT when arguing anything from that sense doesn't matter because when you debate everything goes to what actually IS and IS NOT canon.

And yes if GL says Anakin was a chick then guess what That's Canon it's stupid and would NEVER happen but his word=canon

so if Glentract refuses to argue with what canon actually is then you will never win that arguement because you can't argue with ignorance.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But there were plenty of quotes that did. Advent and Gideon have posted them numerous times.

Advent disagrees with the quotes' validity in supporting the argument, at least as far as I remember, and every quote that Gideon has presented has been more than adequately addressed, only to be brought up again in threads like these (see Sidious66 and the in-universe NEC quote as an example).

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yea I think it was Janus or Nai or one of those guys that cried "LOLZ POLITICAL POWER", when that quote was given.

Or was it "LOLZ IN-UNIVERSE SOURCE"?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Well the orbalisks have a severe weakness to lightning according to ROT and sidious lightning is probably the strongest in the mythos so....

You should know the rest.

In the sense that lightning is the only thing that can actually harm them. This doesn't mean that the orbalisks make him more vulnerable to lightning than he would otherwise be, in fact they still offer added protection given they are able to absorb hundreds of thousands of volts of electricity before being damages. His unprotected skin would be far more vulnerable (or anyone's for that matter).

Originally posted by ApC
Advent disagrees with the quotes' validity in supporting the argument, at least as far as I remember, and every quote that Gideon has presented has been more than adequately addressed, only to be brought up again in threads like these (see Sidious66 and the in-universe NEC quote as an example).

Let's be clear, I'd admit that's some of the quotes that are brought up in favor of Palpatine being the most powerful are bunk. The NEC quote in particular because the narrator of the source could not measure Palpatine's Force power in comparison to any Sith Lord. I don't think Voren had ever been in the same room as him, and he certainly never met the thousands of Sith Lords that came before Palpatine. Since he logically cannot know the personal power of the people he's judging, he cannot make that claim.

Another example would be the one in Vader: The Ultimate Guide:

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."

We're given the definition of what 'power' means in the context of this sentence at the beginning. 'Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire'. It's obvious then that galactic dominance and having reign over a militant empire is what 'power' was alluding to. You can't find a single person with the exception of Captain Falcon that wouldn't be hard-pressed to single-handedly overthrow the man who commands the entire Galactic Empire.

But, I do recall there being at least a couple of more quotes that do specifically call him the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about. Besides, it's hard to ignore the tons of evidence that indicates he should be; Palpatine is basically the most profiled Sith Lord when it comes to his knowledge and power.

Here's one of the remaining quotes, certainly the last one that I'll bother to look for before I hit the hay:

"The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course ; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed."

This is from the novel Death Star. The last two lines appear to be fairly straightforward. I'm not sure what the Rebellion has to do with that, though, which raises an eyebrow as to how that fits into the rest of the statement. Without having the entire passage, I can't be certain if it sets any pretense, but I doubt it. Judge for yourselves.

There is also a quote which nikkolas provided from star wars insider that kevin j anderson stated that exar kun, naga sadow and the other sith are on a firmly lower tier than emperor palpatine.

However do NOT take my word for it as i CANNOT confirm it with nikkolas(or anyone elese) as to which issue of SW insider did he get it from seeing that he has been banned like a year or two ago.

Originally posted by ApC
Advent disagrees with the quotes' validity in supporting the argument, at least as far as I remember, and every quote that Gideon has presented has been more than adequately addressed, only to be brought up again in threads like these (see Sidious66 and the in-universe NEC quote as an example).
Actually NONE of the quotes have been adequately addressed. You've tried and failed and were banned on multiple occasions.

Originally posted by Advent
Here's one of the remaining quotes, certainly the last one that I'll bother to look for before I hit the hay:

"The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course ; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed."

This is from the novel Death Star. The last two lines appear to be fairly straightforward. I'm not sure what the Rebellion has to do with that, though, which raises an eyebrow as to how that fits into the rest of the statement. Without having the entire passage, I can't be certain if it sets any pretense, but I doubt it. Judge for yourselves.

Seems clear cut to me. There are questions only if you're specifically looking to doubt the quotes in favor of an alternate, yet less logical meaning

Can I also point out that authors, and even GL haven't read all the books (GL has said multiple times he has never read them all). How can he say, yes, the EU exists as canon, but I don't really know what is in there and I'm just going to make blanket statements out of ignorance? As I said before, I realize the policy of KMC is to accept statements from Lucas, but I personally don't appeal to faulty authority.

Originally posted by Advent
Oops, I actually didn't provide the full quote last night!

Wasn't that like three hours ago?

Originally posted by ApC
Wasn't that like three hours ago?

It's open to interpretation.

Advent, there's been PLENTY of quotes that make it obvious. Glentract wants to go the way of the Antediluvians with the "I don't believe it logic", let him.

Originally posted by Advent
But, I do recall there being at least a couple of more quotes that do specifically call him the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about. Besides, it's hard to ignore the tons of evidence that indicates he should be; Palpatine is basically the most profiled Sith Lord when it comes to his knowledge and power.

There is a downside to that level of exposure however; while his strengths are profiled so are his weaknesses. Specifically, the movies (highest form of canon and as such set the precedence) quite effectively establish limitations to both the likes of Sidious and Yoda; Yoda struggles with relatively basic telekinesis frequently throughout the movies, and at the same time was able to both overpower Sidious directly with telekinesis and later force a stalemate with the Sith Lord.

Even outside of the movies he is never shown to have done anything of a truly significant scale under his own power with defined circumstances.

The Force Storm (which is performed by a later incarnation anyway) relies on a complex and organised, indirect procedure that summons power from a "hidden reservoir of dark side power" (and as such is not reflective of his regular level of ability).

Palpatine's part in diminishing the Jedi's sensitivity of the Force was done in completely undefined circumstances, and it's entirely possible he required the use of tools or an organised ritual, such as the one we see in Sithisis, in which case it would not be reflective of his regular level of ability either.

Everything else IIRC has all been of a completely unspectacular scale, and nobody has ever really substantiated what knowledge actually means in a combat situation. The Force hasn't truly shown itself to be manifested through combat relevant techniques in that many ways; Jedi and Sith are shown to be able to use physical, long ranged offensive powers, both externally and internally on an opponent, defencive powers, can effect their own physical abilities, can hide themselves in the Force, sense hidden objects in the Force, enhance their reflexes, use telepathy both offensively and defensively and a few other relatively basic abilities (and rare ones such as Shatterpoint); Sidious himself hasn't displayed anything combat relevant outside of the above mentioned abilities so against someone like Bane (who himself has a pretty incredible knowledge base, and has specifically displayed all of the above), the only advantage Sidious can truly be said to possess is a variety of techniques; nothing indicates that he would possess any real advantage over Bane (such as an attack that Bane doesn't have a defencive ability for), knowledge wise; whereas everything Bane has displayed would suggest that he'd have a pretty considerable advantage over the Sith Lord in both power (absorbing, storing, defending himself internally against, and telekinetically redirecting a planetary level of Force lightning) and precision (subatomic scale alterations using the Force), not even mentioning the orbalisks.

Good lord. As usual, Nebaris brings in defeated arguments.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Seems clear cut to me. There are questions only if you're specifically looking to doubt the quotes in favor of an alternate, yet less logical meaning

So you accept that there are alternate meanings? Awesome.

Originally posted by ApC
So you accept that there are alternate meanings? Awesome.

In some quotes yes, in the majority no.

Post just one of "the majority" please.

Advent
This is from the novel Death Star. The last two lines appear to be fairly straightforward. I'm not sure what the Rebellion has to do with that, though, which raises an eyebrow as to how that fits into the rest of the statement. Without having the entire passage, I can't be certain if it sets any pretense, but I doubt it. Judge for yourselves.

Vader was musing how many of the Empire's commanding officers did not consider the Alliance to be a threat, but that the Emperor did. It has no bearing on the quote at all.



That's good enough for me.



Good...



Many have tried. But His Majesty conquers all skeptics and foes!



That's because he's the most important. Hell, the man tends to have profiles as long as Obi-Wan's or Anakin's in Wookieepedia, the official website, various Encyclopedias. He's also tended to be the most referenced; hell, there are more references of him in the Essential Atlas (I know: WTF?) than most characters.

No one else really cares about any other Sith other than Palpatine, with the exception of Vader.

Pop Culture doesn't care about Palpatine though. Really, he's one of the least iconic movie characters there is. Vader? Iconic. Yoda? Iconic. Boba Fett? I conic. Jubba The Hutt? Iconic. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Han Solo, Princess Leigha, R2D2, C3P0? All iconic? Palpatine? Who?

The Force doesn't care either, it credits everything the man did to Bane. Poor Palaptine... Cared so much about the dark side and the dark side didn't even know who he was.

And Bane credits everything he did to Revan

no

Anyway, it has been communicated to me that a certain party has questioned Palpatine's role in blunting Jedi sensitivity. Because my position is truly invincible and no pro-Palpatine argument can be defeated, I shall indulge the ignorant just this once:

"The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office ; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception." -- Revenge of the Sith, page 321.

What does that even mean though? Sounds highly metaphorical. Sexy, ask Gideon via PM to explain it to you publicly in this thread so Gideon can respond please.

Originally posted by Advent
But, I do recall there being at least a couple of more quotes that do specifically call him the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about.

The only quote that I vaguely remembered was, of course, the one I misquoted. Of the three that I found, they were all nugatory. So, are there any more statements that aren't open to interpretation regarding Palpatine's power?

Advent
The only quote that I remembered was the one I misquoted. Of the three that I found, they were all nugatory. So, are there any more statements that aren't open to interpretation regarding Palpatine's power?

All of the ones concerning Palpatine's ability relative to his predecessors in Bane's Order.

First of all, even if you take "most powerful" as combat wise, then you have to take in account that even if Sidious > Bane, that doesn't mean that Sidious > Bane with ORBALISKS!

Yoda was in his time the greatest jedi to have existed yet, so Yoda > TPM Obi Wan, but does that mean that Yoda > TPM Obi Wan with a fleet at his command? NO!

"most powerful", IF it deals with combat, means most powerful when no outside interference is included. Michael Phelps may be one of the fastest if not the fastest swimmers in the world, meaning that in speed He > you. But does that mean that Phelps > you in an aircraft carrier? NO!

So in other words, in this thread we are looking to debate who would win based on FEATS not just quotes.

HWKA just went back on my ignore function. Permanently. I strongly suggest that everyone finds a place for him on theirs.

Apparently, to tell people that this thread is about arguing over their feats and not quotes claiming that Sidious > all is enough for me to permanently go back on his ignore. How logical.



Anyway, it's true that Sidious could kill/severely harm Bane via FL, since Bane has shown to be vulnerable to it.

No. It's more or less an issue that you truly know nothing in the grand scheme of things.

"YODA IS THE MOST POWERFUL EVER BUT DOES THAT MEAN HES BETTER THAN KENOBI WITH A FLEET LOLLLLLLLLLL NO!"

^ Absolutely retarded. You make faulty analogies and logical blunders in almost everything you do. No one here has any modicum of respect for you and you've driven away anyone who has ever dared given you a second chance. Perhaps if you didn't try to lecture those of us who are better than you, we'd understand. Rather than ask questions to increase your knowledge, you push your way into the fray with bullshit like the above and wonder why everyone scoffs at you.

You need to learn: you argue the right way around here or not at all.

Period.

Dude, the fleet analogy was heavily exaggerated to prove a point: just because Sidious is more powerful than any other sith (including Bane) doesn't mean that Sidious is more powerful than Bane with ORBALISKS.

I was just asking to see if Sidious's feats surpassed that of Bane's. Of course, most of you ignored that.

And yes, I have asked a lot of questions, but few of them ever get answered. For example:

When you say "X takes it 9/10", that means that 90% of the time he'll win, right? And the other 10% his enemy just go lucky, right? So in the movies when so and so wins, how do you know that he didn't just get lucky? Sure, you can't speculate like that, but you guys always take who wins in the movies as proof.

And I asked several other questions, such as what Neb's original account was/why he orgininally got banned. No one answered that.

And I do admit that many of you are excellent debaters, many far better than me, including:

You (Gideon)
Advent
Lord Lucien when he wants to actually debate
Sometimes Red Nemesis when he wants to actually debate
TJ, although I wouldn't say that he's that much BETTER
Sometimes Slash, although I wouldn't say he's BETTER
Eminence
Darth Sexy
Sometimes Nai
and maybe a few others that I missed

But just because you're usually better doesn't mean that you're always right. Otherwise there isn't any point in debating is there?

For example: once, Nai said "oh the jedi mind trick always works on any non-force sensitives". I showed a part where Jabba resisted it. "Oh that's because he's a hutt and hutts can resist that, as can other species". I showed him numerous quotes saying that it only works on the weak minded, and then numerous examples of where non force sensitive humans resisted it. He never responded to that point again, because he couldn't.

I'm just telling you to stop being an ass and think. THINK.

T-H-I-N-K.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm just telling you to stop being an ass and think. THINK.

T-H-I-N-K.

I knew it. I just KNEW it.

I just knew that you would ignore everything that I say and just post a two line "response".

You're the one that typically makes very long (and well thought out) posts while everyone else (or at least Red Nemesis) says stuff like "the one with the biggest cheeseburger wins!". But, of course, you ignore what I say.



How about this: feel free to put me on ignore, but please you, Lucien, Nai or Red Nemesis respond to each of the arguments numbered below. Just please.


In the Empire vs Earth thread, you said that it was a spite, and that therefore I lose. This is just BS. Here is the LOGIC behind it:

1. If it was a spite, then why did you say that the Empire wins when they obviously would lose?

2. If you didn't realize that it was a spite, then doesn't that mean that you lose? You argued for the wrong side, your side lost, mine won. Therefore, I won the debate.

3. Claiming that it was lopsided and unfair that I argued for the unfairly favored team while you argued for the losing team, answer this: isn't it your fault that you didn't realize that it was a spite and that you argued for the wrong side? You didn't HAVE to argue for the Empire, you couldn't correctly stated that Earth wins.

4. Why did you blame me for not including air support when I gave them 100 tie fighters (not in the OP, but later)?

5. Why did you blame me for not giving them supplies when

a) I gave them quite a bit of supplies
b) Red Nemesis claimed that they didn't need supplies due to "hypermatter".

6. Why did you blame me for not giving them intel when I gave them just as much intel about Earth as Earth gets?

7. Why did you blame me for putting them too far from America when I put them right next to America (in Mexico)?

8. Why did you blame me for not letting the thread die when just a few pages in I said that we should let it die and everyone ignored me?

Now please respond to each of these numbered PERFECTLY LOGICAL arguments. Prove to me how much of an idiot I am, and then I'll admit it.

Yep. I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You'll simply have to learn; I'm the instrument of change around here.

So think. Now. Period.

To answer your question He-man, Bane and Sidious (ROTS) are mostly level feat-wise with alot of controversy about how level with both characters having advantages and disadvantages over the other. To decide a winner one should carefully consider feats, know information and make judgements

And you're right about the quote thing and how Sidious being (possibly, I'm not siding with anyone here) more powerful doesn't grant him an automatic win. To use an example it would be like claiming that swimmer X could beat swimmer Y because he is faster or the better swimmer, despite the fact that swimmer Y has rocket boots on. You would need to think about other things in this case. To use a relevant example it would be like saying Sidious would beat Mace Windu becuase he's more powerful.

And btw it wasn't spite in the Earth v Empire thread. The others were just being dicks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To answer your question He-man, Bane and Sidious (ROTS) are mostly level feat-wise with alot of controversy about how level with both characters having advantages and disadvantages over the other. To decide a winner one should carefully consider feats, know information and make judgements

And you're right about the quote thing and how Sidious being (possibly, I'm not siding with anyone here) more powerful doesn't grant him an automatic win. To use an example it would be like claiming that swimmer X could beat swimmer Y because he is faster or the better swimmer, despite the fact that swimmer Y has rocket boots on. You would need to think about other things in this case. To use a relevant example it would be like saying Sidious would beat Mace Windu becuase he's more powerful.

THANK YOU

Nephthys
And you're right about the quote thing and how Sidious being more powerful doesn't grant him an automatic win.

Corrected. There is no possibly; numerous sources make it abundantly clear that Sidious is more powerful than Bane even during TPM.

Originally posted by Gideon
Corrected. There is no possibly; numerous sources make it abundantly clear that Sidious is more powerful than Bane even during TPM.

They don't specifically state Bane. They just say "most powerful"

Power isn't just physical prowess. Some call the president of the United States the most powerful person in the world, and not because he/she can beat people up (most can't, they're politicians not soldiers). It's because they have command, or at least influence, over the most powerful country in the world.

The quote could simply mean that Palapatine controls the most powerful Empire ever.

EVEN IF it means that Palpatine > all, that doesn't mean that Palpatine > all, even when "all" has outside objects such as orbalisks.

My Yoda vs Obi Wan was an exaggerated example.

I must've missed where Palpatine benchpressing cars or ruling the galaxy as of TPM.

Rather than make stupid assertions, you should have asked: "Hey, Gideon, could it possibly mean political power?" But you opted to pretend you're a know-it-all and give out an idiotic answer. Don't address me directly again. I'm always right and you're always wrong.

Originally posted by Gideon
I must've missed where Palpatine benchpressing cars or ruling the galaxy as of TPM.

Rather than make stupid assertions, you should have asked: "Hey, Gideon, could it possibly mean political power?" But you opted to pretend you're a know-it-all and give out an idiotic answer. Don't address me directly again. I'm always right and you're always wrong.

The person that said this must really be confused.

He apparently claimed that someone said that Palpatine could benchpress cars.

He also responded to the top half of someone's argument, but completely ignored the bottom part, which made an entirely reasonable argument that qutoes saying that Sidious > all doesnt' take outside objects such as Orbalisks into account.

He also misread someone's line saying:


"The quote could simply mean that Palapatine controls the most powerful Empire ever."


And interpreted it as that someone claiming to know all.


He also claims that he's ALWAYS right, and that someone is always wrong, even though that someone once said that Sidious is the most powerful sith ever. Logically, since that someone is always wrong, that must mean that Sidious isn't the most powerful sith ever.

Heknowsall, seriously. I know Gideon might be confused sexually but he DOES have a point. As of TPM, Sidious was stated to be the most powerful of Bane's order which includes BANE. There are MANY quotes that put him above Bane or any other sith lord for that matter.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Heknowsall, seriously. I know Gideon might be confused sexually but he DOES have a point. As of TPM, Sidious was stated to be the most powerful of Bane's order which includes BANE. There are MANY quotes that put him above Bane or any other sith lord for that matter.

That's true, and I agree with that.

So it's agreed that:

Sidious > Bane

However, those quotes mean that Sidious = most powerful when outside objects aren't brought into play.

Sidious > Bane =/= Sidious > Bane WITH ORBALISKS

I'm in NO WAY saying that Orbalisk Bane > Sidious. I'm simply trying to get a discussion going in which people debate Sidious vs Orbalisk Bane based on feats and logic, not simply quotes, because the quotes about Sidious don't include outside objects such as orbalisks.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
That's true, and I agree with that.

So it's agreed that:

Sidious > Bane

However, those quotes mean that Sidious = most powerful when outside objects aren't brought into play.

Sidious > Bane =/= Sidious > Bane WITH ORBALISKS

I'm in NO WAY saying that Orbalisk Bane > Sidious. I'm simply trying to get a discussion going in which people debate Sidious vs Orbalisk Bane based on feats and logic, not simply quotes, because the quotes about Sidious don't include outside objects such as orbalisks.

What the hell are you talking about? You are making ridiculous statement. Of course, Bane with a star destroyer can defeat Sidious. It is ASSUMED that when we say Bane vs. Sidious, we mean Bane vs. Sidious, not Bane and the ancient sith vs. Sidious.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the hell are you talking about? You are making ridiculous statement. Of course, Bane with a star destroyer can defeat Sidious. It is ASSUMED that when we say Bane vs. Sidious, we mean Bane vs. Sidious, not Bane and the ancient sith vs. Sidious.

...

when did I say anything about Bane having ancient sith or star destroyers?

In this fight, Bane has ORBALISKS. I included that in the thread title.

Quotes about Sidious being the most powerful sith doesn't take outside objects into account. In this thread, Bane has an outside object helping him.

It doesn't matter. Sidious is still more powerful than Bane with orbalisks. Sure the fight might be more even, but one blast from Sidious' lightning and Bane is gone.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It doesn't matter. Sidious is still more powerful than Bane with orbalisks. Sure the fight might be more even, but one blast from Sidious' lightning and Bane is gone.

That's a reasonable claim. But can Sidious's lightning get past Bane's own lightning (if he attacks at the same time)/his lightsaber, his Force shield, his orbalisks and his own natural and very high resistance to pain? Not saying he can't, just asking, like what Gideon said I should do.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
That's a reasonable claim. But can Sidious's lightning get past Bane's own lightning (if he attacks at the same time)/his lightsaber, his Force shield, his orbalisks and his own natural and very high resistance to pain? Not saying he can't, just asking, like what Gideon said I should do.

The question is this. How does Bane prepare himself for someone who is superior in both knowledge and command of the force?

I would be on your side right now but you didn't include me in your list.

Originally posted by ApC
I would be on your side right now but you didn't include me in your list.

It's better that he save himself the embarrassment of including a 100-time loser.

Dr McBeefington
The question is this. How does Bane prepare himself for someone who is superior in both knowledge and command of the force?

A FLEET!!!1!!!!!

BECUZ SIDZ > BANE SURE BUT SIDZ > BANE + A FLEET? LOL I DONT THINK SO NO!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The question is this. How does Bane prepare himself for someone who is superior in both knowledge and command of the force?

Well, I think that it said somewhere that one has to be significantly more powerful in the Force in order to break through one's prepared Force defenses. In this case, Bane has far more than just his lightsaber and Force shield, he also has his Orbalisks, which while weak vs lightning still does defend him.

In addition, Bane has a remarkable resistance to pain, is no slouch in the Force either, and the orbalisks also enhance his Force abilities.


Not saying that Bane wins, I personally think that Sidious takes this. Just coming up with ideas as to how this isn't a predetermined thread where the winner is obvious: one CAN make an argument for Bane.

What the hell are you even babbling about? Resistance to pain? That will keep someone from dying? If you're hopped up on PCP, you will literally feel NOTHING (i.e. a Resistance to pain) but if another crack head comes along and shoots you in the head, it doesn't matter how much pain you can withstand, the injury itself is what kills you.

Sidious took the brunt of his own lightning for what, 10 seconds or so, and was fine. He still had, as he said, "unlimited power" to kill Mace with.

On a side note, since it was said in universe, he must've really had unlimited power. Oh yea, and since Anakin said he becomes more powerful that Sidious, I guess that's true too... at least according to Glentract's logic.

You can make all the arguments for Bane that you want, but when something is wrong, it's wrong. You can't debate around it (logically) and expect to win. And feats, as I remember, around here don't mean that much. Yoda is Sidous' equal as of RoTS and we've never seen him kill legions of people with the force, but does that mean that he can't? Absolutely not. He has a superior command of the force, just as Sidious does and is technically just as capable of killing people with it. So when feats don't get a point across, we go to quotes from those who created the fictitious characters. Understand?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sometimes Slash, although I wouldn't say he's BETTER


Lying is a sin.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm just telling you to stop being an ass and think. THINK.

T-H-I-N-K.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
That's entirely reasonable, but can you guys find feats that Sidious acomplished that trump Bane's? Not saying that Bane wins, just wondering. Creating a vortex or something in space that crushed fleets, escaping death, killing 3 masters in under 5 seconds, having lighting that rivals Bane's, which was said to contain at least a million volts from one hand, because Bane made people ashes and skeletons, Sidious left people skeleton when they were wearing armor, masterminded the Clone Wars, leading both sides, and managing to hide the darkness inside him in front of Yoda, Mace, and the entire High Council, anything ring a bell?

Hmm. I would start with clouding the light side of the force. Staying under the radar of 10,000 Jedi..

He defeated the Jedi the moment they added Anakin to the council and made them start going against their own code; handing out "secret" missions that included treason. Turning the galaxy against those who have been it's protectors for centuries. And all that was without even using the force. Put that kind of mind behind the ultimate power of the dark side and he's virtually unstoppable. Dispatching of 3 council members/masters in seconds.

Bane couldn't even hurt Kas'im with a force wave that was in a one on one setting where he had time to build up the energy for said attack.

EDIT: sorry, just saw the reply above about the Jedi masters.

Hmm sidious mere presence causing an unbalance in the force, his mere presence turning byss from once a "lush and fertile world" to "one of the most powerful dark side sites" in the galaxy.

I think creating wormholes that wipe out entire fleets, killing 50 storm troopers with one blast of lightning and keeping the lightning from killing his own men along with draining billions of people on byss sub conciously pretty much puts him above bane.

Dont forget that when he died, a dark side nexus formed above Endor where he died.

I support quotes, and Sidious is obviously the greatest DLOTS, but I think I see what HWKA is trying to say here:

If you give... Lumiya a stick, and say... Rosh Penin (random Jedi) a lightsaber, and that is ALL the equipment Lumiya has, she is probably going to die. Not necessarily, but her chances don't look good.
This doesn't necessarily make Rosh Penin a greater combatant than Lumiya, in fact, most would argue differently. It just means Lumiya was severely at a disadvantage in this fight.

In a fight in which Lumiya has the exact same equipment as Rosh Penin, she is going to win the huge majority of the fights. She is more powerful. However, if she starts at an equipment disadvantage, there is a chance she will lose.

I think HWKA is simply stating here that he thinks Sidious is at an equipment disadvantage. He is stronger in the force than Bane, and a better duelist than Bane, but perhaps so was Raskt'a, and it didn't do him much good. According to HWKA, simply because Sidious is more powerful than Bane, it doesn't make it a cut and dried argument over who wins a duel if Bane is wearing the orbies.

Personally, I think Sidious would fry Bane's orbalisks, and end the fight with UNLIMITED POWaaaah... but HWKA exaggerated a point to the extent that he lost his point in his example, but I think the point was a valid opinion, even as I believe it is wrong.

I always thought that his orbalisks were standard when someone starts a Bane VS thread, just like Exar Kun's amulets and all of Jango Fett his equipment.

And yes, I also support quotes. If Lucas states that Jar Jar was actually a Force sensitive then yes, Jar Jar is, unless it contradicts any other source that states Jar Jar can't be a Force sensitive.

Yes, I support quotes. If GL says it (or another official source) then that's just the way it is.

Such a limited way to look at things. Don't ignore actual evidence in exchange for falling back on any "official" source that supports your opinion.

But, Yoda already beat Ventress...

Slash_KMC
But, Yoda already beat Ventress...

no

But that was an awesome line: "Strong you are in the dark side, but not that strong."

Not very Yoda like though.

and yes

Originally posted by truejedi
I support quotes, and Sidious is obviously the greatest DLOTS, but I think I see what HWKA is trying to say here:

If you give... Lumiya a stick, and say... Rosh Penin (random Jedi) a lightsaber, and that is ALL the equipment Lumiya has, she is probably going to die. Not necessarily, but her chances don't look good.
This doesn't necessarily make Rosh Penin a greater combatant than Lumiya, in fact, most would argue differently. It just means Lumiya was severely at a disadvantage in this fight.

In a fight in which Lumiya has the exact same equipment as Rosh Penin, she is going to win the huge majority of the fights. She is more powerful. However, if she starts at an equipment disadvantage, there is a chance she will lose.

I think HWKA is simply stating here that he thinks Sidious is at an equipment disadvantage. He is stronger in the force than Bane, and a better duelist than Bane, but perhaps so was Raskt'a, and it didn't do him much good. According to HWKA, simply because Sidious is more powerful than Bane, it doesn't make it a cut and dried argument over who wins a duel if Bane is wearing the orbies.

Personally, I think Sidious would fry Bane's orbalisks, and end the fight with UNLIMITED POWaaaah... but HWKA exaggerated a point to the extent that he lost his point in his example, but I think the point was a valid opinion, even as I believe it is wrong.

THANK YOU.

This is what I was trying to say. Sorry if I was a bit confusing.

I haven't read RoT, so I can't really make a statement here, but I'm just saying does Sidious have the ability to get past Bane's defenses and his orbies? Probably, so Sidious wins in Force and maybe all-out. But what about sabers? I'm tempted to say that Bane takes this. I mean, only his head is vulnerable, and he can basically use his hand to grab Sidious's lightsaber, throw it away (since Bane is physically stronger) and then chop Sidious's head off.

Technically his wrists are also visible but Sidious would have to hit witha blow which would take his hand away else it'd heal within seconds.

Oh, you mean how Anakin did Dooku? Hmmm... Don't see how that would be that difficult, especially for someone with the credentials of Sidious. I'm not, however, saying that Bane is a slouch.

Darth Subjekt
Oh, you mean how Anakin did Dooku? Hmmm... Don't see how that would be that difficult, especially for someone with the credentials of Sidious. I'm not, however, saying that Bane is a slouch.

Well, to be fair, Anakin did have to grapple with Dooku in order to get to that point. I don't see Sidious trying to grab Bane's wrists...

Any particular reason why? Please don't play the "uncharacteristic" card. I've heard that more times than I care to count since I've been back... like people are going out and having a beer with the characters. If that were the case, it was uncharacteristic of Anakin as well, but it didn't stop him.

But no really, why do you say that?

Why?

Look at illustrations of both of them and you have your answer: Sidious, for all his power, is an old geezer. Bane is a monster without the superadrenaline inducing crabs shackled to his skin. Do you honestly think Palpatine would want to get that close?

Personally, I doubt it. But anything is possible.

No, I supposed not. But in the unlikely scenario that Sidious would have to sever Bane's hands in a fight to win, I think he might be willing to risk it all if he thinks he might be destroyed anyways. Or basically, make an uncharacteristic move, should the situation require it.

I didn't mean to imply he's just going to run right over and try to grapple with Bane, which obviously, he would lose on the purely physical level.

The thing is that in a melee, Bane can literally use his hands to block lightsaber strikes, so if Sidious tries to slash at him he can just catch Sidious's lightsaber BLADE and then stab him.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The thing is that in a melee, Bane can literally use his hands to block lightsaber strikes, so if Sidious tries to slash at him he can just catch Sidious's lightsaber BLADE and then stab him.

this is actually a very good point. That would be very frustrating to someone with a lightsaber. Probably something that never ever happened to them in their history of saber fighting too.

Though, IF sidious had knowledge of the orbalisks, he would only need to unignite his weapon to get it back.

And why wouldn't he know about them considering he was stated to mastering almost all aspects of the force?

So you're saying that Bane could just turn on his saber and grab the blade and NO harm will come to him? I call bullshit, unless he's done it already. Also, Sidious, as said by Ian McDiarmid in the ROTS SF, he got his roll call to actually do the fight and was told by George that he was supposed to be the "fastest fighter in the galaxy" (May be slightly off, but the point is that he was meant to be the fastest with a lightsber). So Bane would have to be as fast,if not faster in order to just grab Sidious' saber.

I'm not saying its impossible, just incredibly improbable.

He may not need to grab it in RoT he uses his forearm to 'bat the blade away' it would be easier to dothat.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The thing is that in a melee, Bane can literally use his hands to block lightsaber strikes, so if Sidious tries to slash at him he can just catch Sidious's lightsaber BLADE and then stab him.


I thought in the book, Bane wore special cages to prevent them from growing over his hands, feet, and head. So he can't really hold onto the blade with his hands, since they are unprotected, but he could trap the blade at his side with his forearm, and impale sids that way.

This is true yet it's said the only place the lightsaber could do damage was the neck ankles and wrists which implies whatever he wore on his hands could deflect sabers as well.

Originally posted by mattatom
He may not need to grab it in RoT he uses his forearm to 'bat the blade away' it would be easier to dothat. No, that's not what was said. It was said that "he could literally use his hands to block lightsaber strikes, so if Sidious tries to slash at him he can just catch Sidious's lightsaber BLADE and then stab him." Therefore you all have to PROVE that he can 1, even be fast enough to catch it, and 2, if he is that fast, that his hands can grab a pure beam of intangible energy.

Originally posted by mattatom
This is true yet it's said the only place the lightsaber could do damage was the neck ankles and wrists which implies whatever he wore on his hands could deflect sabers as well. Where exactly is this stated? There's also spaces in between the orbies that would be vulnerable when facing someone like Sidious.

Furthermore, what's to stop Sidious from using the force to rip them off of Bane?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
So you're saying that Bane could just turn on his saber and grab the blade and NO harm will come to him? I call bullshit, unless he's done it already. Also, Sidious, as said by Ian McDiarmid in the ROTS SF, he got his roll call to actually do the fight and was told by George that he was supposed to be the "fastest fighter in the galaxy" (May be slightly off, but the point is that he was meant to be the fastest with a lightsber). So Bane would have to be as fast,if not faster in order to just grab Sidious' saber.

I'm not saying its impossible, just incredibly improbable.

Not to sound insulting, but first you say that it's "bullshit" but then you say that it's possible but just improbable.

If Bane's orbies are more or less saber proof, then what's to say that the orbies won't stop the saber (assuming that his hands are protected)?

And true, Sidious is faster, but that doesn't mean that Bane can't block it. Yoda was faster than Dooku but Dooku could still block Yoda's strikes. It would be difficult, but may be plausible for Bane to use his body parts to block Sidious's attacks.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
.

Furthermore, what's to stop Sidious from using the force to rip them off of Bane?

Cause we are discussing melee combat. We are in 100% agreement that Sids wins the force and all out.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Not to sound insulting, but first you say that it's "bullshit" but then you say that it's possible but just improbable. **Sigh** I said "bullshit" in a completely different thread.. therefore it doesn't count in this thread. Understand? So, yes I said this was extremely improbable - meaning as close to impossible as possible without actually being impossible. (BTW, the "bullshit" was in reference to Luke having 4 years of training)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If Bane's orbies are more or less saber proof, then what's to say that the orbies won't stop the saber (assuming that his hands are protected)? Do you have proof that his palms are covered by orbies? If not, then your point would be moot.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And true, Sidious is faster, but that doesn't mean that Bane can't block it. Yoda was faster than Dooku but Dooku could still block Yoda's strikes. It would be difficult, but may be plausible for Bane to use his body parts to block Sidious's attacks. Big difference there. Yoda was not at ALL trying to harm Dooku. This would be completely different. And if you were to strike the same area of orbies, they would eventually give and break. And I'm not saying that he use them to help block. I'm saying that he can't just "grab" his lightsaber in mid swing and stop it. It's not tangible. It's not a solid matter so you wouldn't be able to grab it. It a beam of energy. Can you "grab" light from a flashlight? No, you can't.

Originally posted by truejedi
Cause we are discussing melee combat. We are in 100% agreement that Sids wins the force and all out.
touche.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Furthermore, what's to stop Sidious from using the force to rip them off of Bane?

Aside from the fact that he would have to first break through Bane's force shield to even attempt it, Bane himself, a being who's displayed both greater precision and greater power over the Force, wasn't ever able to, even with the advantages of time and preperation.

Yeah but u see.. If we are comparing lightsabers to flashlights, and one can't physically hold the flashlight beam, then why can another flashlight beam physically "touch" it?

I'm referring to the lightsabers. They should be "intangible" as you said, but since a lightsaber can be blocked by another lightsaber, what you are saying doesn't apply. If some material existed, that could also block a lightsaber beam, besides another lightsaber beam, then why couldn't that substance be used in combat? It shouldn't just pass right through the lightsaber. Star Wars isn't like that.
Think about it like having a lightsaber that extends around one's arm/hand or w/e bodypart. Then using that arm covered in laser or light or cortosis, and stopping the blade. I think its pretty concievable that Bane could do that.

If the book said that orbalisks oculd block lightsabers, then they can. You can't really argue agasint that u kno...


And ur question about where it says Bane's hands are protected, in ROT, during that last fight, It said that Bane's only weaknesses were his ankles, wrists, and head. It didn't mention hands.

They also interact with normal matter- Jinn experiences resistance when trying to cut through the door. This is why bullets would bounce.

They shouldn't weigh anything either, No matter how hard they swing them, they should have exactly ZERO momentum when they connect, (If the mass part of the equation goes to zero)

However, clearly HOW HARD they swing matters a great deal.

So... We must suffice it to say that we don't understand lightsabers.

Well, the hilt has mass. And there is mass in the arm that swings it. It would be more accurate to call it something like a (theoretical) lever- it moves pressure from the hand outward without adding any mass of its own.

That would make sense, except the hand would always have to be moving in the direction of the desired force. Any change in the component is more lost momentum.

Lots of lost momentum from the simple fact that the movement of the arm is coming 3 feet from where the blow is desired too... In fact, i'm really not even sure if that is possible. That 3 feet of x component might make it impossible to transfer that momentum to y, wouldn't it?

Any change in the component is more lost momentum.


Wut?

This would allow for Dooku's strong style- the wrist motions are very precise, but Anakin's full body slashes would have more followthrough.

i'm just thinking that if you start putting 0 into different equations, the lever one, for instance, you are going to have a lot of things going to 0 that make lightsabers a bit abnormal. I mean, miniscule mass is still mass, and there is room there for the transfer of the momentum from one set of arms, through the miniscule mass, to the other set of arms.

I think... If your mass is 0, it will lose that lever function. The momentum would be lost instead of transferred.

don't quote me either... I'm supposing out loud. I could go find one of my physics books from several years back if i really wanted to know... Spanish and scene work first though...

EDIT: Nevermind, I sold my physics books, for MONEY.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Any change in the component is more lost momentum.




cause the cos of 90 degrees is 0, so the closer the angle approaches that 90, the less momentum is transferred in the desired direction. (if i remember correctly)

if im thinking all wrong, sorry. been several years.

My whole point was that a lightsaber is described as a weapon with a beam of pure concentrated energy that cut through anything save for another lightsaber, therefore Bane shouldn't be able to grab it. And saying that those were his only weaknesses could very well be hyperbole.

I mean how often does someone's hand (as opposed to their wrist) actually come into play as a target in SW (except one time for Luke just to show his robotic hand)? Its always an arm or wrist that gets cut by a saber. He might very well have orbies on the tops of his hands, but his palms? He wouldn't even be able to close his hand and make a fist if that were the case.

So no one has still yet proved that his hands are protected. Its all just been speculation.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
My whole point was that a lightsaber is described as a weapon with a beam of pure concentrated energy that cut through anything save for another lightsaber, therefore Bane shouldn't be able to grab it.

There are other materials that can stop a lightsaber, besides another lightsaber.

That's the way they were described on the OS, give or take a few words. But even the magna guards staffs had similar properties at either end.

@Whoever claims that the lightsaber will just go through like a flashlight

Then what about win Qui Gon/Obi Wan cut open that door in TPM? It takes them effort to do so, and the lightsaber didn't just go through.

What about Beskar armor? It has been shown to stop lightsabers with nothing more than a scorch mark.

Bane's orbalisks were said to be able to stop more or less anything, right?

Not saying that he wins, just saying that his orbalisks can stop lightsabers.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Whoever claims that the lightsaber will just go through like a flashlight

Then what about win Qui Gon/Obi Wan cut open that door in TPM? It takes them effort to do so, and the lightsaber didn't just go through.
It did go through, it just took a while to burn away the super thick door.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It did go through, it just took a while to burn away the super thick door.

I said "just" as in magically pass through like an intangible object.

So then... what was your point about the door?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So then... what was your point about the door? It took a while to get through it, apparently.

Doi.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Doi. I'm upset noones commented on my avatar change, not even you Lucien!

Mr. Ican'tbebotheredtoreadasimpledocumentbecauseIneedt
osleepinsteadlikeapussyman

I would have commented on it but I can't make out what it is.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I would have commented on it but I can't make out what it is. It's a drawing called Master Flood, which is what I picture Master Chief would look like if he was infected by the Flood. Here's the proper image.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
My whole point was that a lightsaber is described as a weapon with a beam of pure concentrated energy that cut through anything save for another lightsaber, therefore Bane shouldn't be able to grab it.
Except that we clearly see it interact with normal matter in such a way that proves resistance is present. If there was a material such that the resistance was perfect then it would be lightsaber proof.

Hence: orbalisks and the ability to reflect bullets.

On his hands, see below...


Is this the one you mean? This doesn't look like hyperbole to me.

and

His hands are not protected, at least not by orbalisks.

You have yet to address this though:


He does this:


So: Bane can't physically grab the lightsaber with his hand. No. Bane can use his body to deflect lightsaber blades though.

And bullets would bounce off a saber blade.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Except that we clearly see it interact with normal matter in such a way that proves resistance is present. If there was a material such that the resistance was perfect then it would be lightsaber proof.

Hence: orbalisks and the ability to reflect bullets. From the OS:
"When deactivated, a lightsaber appears as a polished metallic handle, about 30 centimeters long, lined with control studs. At the press of a button the energy contained within is liberated and forms as a shaft of pure energy about a meter long. The saber hums and scintillates with a distinct sound. Its shimmering blade is capable of cutting through almost anything, save for the blade of another lightsaber."

As for the EU entry:
"Once unleashed, the power channels through a positively charged continuous energy lens at the center of the handle. The beam then arcs circumferentially back to a negatively charged high energy flux aperture. A superconductor transfers the power from the flux aperture to the power cell. As a result, a lightsaber only expends power when its blade cuts through something. So efficient is the blade, that it does not radiate heat unless it comes into contact with something."

"The blade's color depends on the nature of the jewel it springs from, and while its length is fixed in the case of a single-jewel lightsaber, lightsabers equipped with multiple crystals can have their length varied by rotating a knob that allows the focusing crystal activator to subtly modify the refraction pattern between the gems.'

Now, the second "EU" paragraph affirms further that it's a beam or energy, which the length can be varied at anytime. You can't do that with a solid object.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
On his hands, see below...

I was saying the entire time that his hands weren't covered. You just helped me with that... thanks. And so yes, it was hyperbole, as he was saying that only his neck and wrists and ankles were weaknesses. I said that doesn't mean that his hands ARE covered, because how often are hands the subject of attack as opposed to the wrist...

EDIT: I said he could use his forearms to bounce the saber off. I never went againt that. As far as the bullets, as we know of them on Earth, I think they would burn up rather than be deflected.

That was sort of the point. I'm a helper.



I said the blade was a solid object? How silly of me.

Could you point me to that so that I may formally retract the statement? It seemed to me like I was pointing out the canon evidence of how lightsabers actually act in the mythos.

Because, you know, the evidence we have to look at supports what I said. The evidence you provided does not really comment on the matter except for the line about cutting through "almost anything." The list of things it doesn't cut is exclusive, but definitely a relevant set.

If anything you've helped me (thank you) by proving the nature of the interaction between the blade and normal matter.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That was sort of the point. I'm a helper.


You're getting there. Almost at that place where I started so long ago.

Be quiet slash.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That was sort of the point. I'm a helper.



I said the blade was a solid object? How silly of me.

Could you point me to that so that I may formally retract the statement? It seemed to me like I was pointing out the canon evidence of how lightsabers actually act in the mythos.

Because, you know, the evidence we have to look at supports what I said. The evidence you provided does not really comment on the matter except for the line about cutting through "almost anything." The list of things it doesn't cut is exclusive, but definitely a relevant set.

If anything you've helped me (thank you) by proving the nature of the interaction between the blade and normal matter. You didn't say it directly, but the implication was that it was bound by the same physics as a sword, for the lack of a better example.

My ENTIRE point, was that Bane could not grab a saber. So despite the fun little banter we're sharing, you've ultimately agreed with my point. Of course SW physics and logic don't equal that of our own, so I will admit that the flashlight analogy was not the best choice. So I'll take that particular example back, but my point stands.

I agree with your point that Bane can't grab the saber, since his hands weren't covered. I'm not entirely sure that he couldn't grab the saber if they WERE covered.

The only point I would say is agreeable is that we don't know HOW the physics of a lightsaber works. In TPM, the fact that the lightsaber didn't just immediately slice through the blastdoor , and that QUI Gonn was pushing very hard on the saber can only mean that a lightsaber CAN meet resistance other than from another saber.

What are thudbugs made out of that lightsabers deflect them rather than burn them up? What is beskar, that it can resist lightsabers?

FOr that matter, why does a blade of light seem to carely roughly the same weight as the hilt of the saber?

I also, still think that the entire concept of swinging a lightsaber HARD is kinda pointless if the blade actually contains a 0 in the mass department. If i'm wrong on that, i'd love to hear why. It is something that has bothered me, since for any force to exist, a mass must be present. acceleration alone isn't enough.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
From the OS:
"When deactivated, a lightsaber appears as a polished metallic handle, about 30 centimeters long, lined with control studs. At the press of a button the energy contained within is liberated and forms as a shaft of pure energy about a meter long. The saber hums and scintillates with a distinct sound. Its shimmering blade is capable of cutting through almost anything, save for the blade of another lightsaber."



You forgot to bold the almost anything part.

If lightsabers just go through everything like a flashlight, then how come beskar armor can stop it in its tracks? How come that blast door/big door in TPM could resist it? Why didn't it just go through like a flashlight?

The saber did go through the door like a flashlight... At 5:40 onwards The reason it takes so long to open the door when hes pulling in a circle is because he needs to go around the locking mechanism then when the blast door closes, the lightsaber isn't long enough to go all the way through.