Kyle Rayner vs Nate Grey

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id369
This will not be your average match up. The following stipulations are in effort to balance out the match.

Stipulation.
Kyle is fused with the Ion Force, and wearing his GL Ring to maximize his potential and feats to claim.

Nate Grey makes use of the feats, and properties of his genetic twins (Stryfe & Cable). Only the beneficial properties, such the combined experience, the T.O./Professor under his control, and Deadpools healing factor.

DarthZoom
If original Ion then he stomps X-man

If current Ion then X-man ftw.

id369
If its not obvious, its current Ion.

DarthZoom
Then X-man takes it.

guy222
nate

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Then X-man takes it.

Why?

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
Why?

Are you familiar with his powerset?

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Are you familiar with his powerset?

familiar with both.

Slaanesh
Yat FTW..

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
familiar with both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nate_Grey#Powers_and_abilities

He has any number of options to stomp Yat.

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nate_Grey#Powers_and_abilities

He has any number of options to stomp Yat.

Its not Yat he is fighting. Its Kyle.

And he comes packing a GL ring on top of the Ion Force.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
Its not Yat he is fighting. Its Kyle.

And he comes packing a GL ring on top of the Ion Force.

The ring doesn't add to the ION power really, it just keeps the lead from killing Yat.

Whether Yat or Kyle, X-man takes this unless it's original Ion.

batdude123
facepalm

This must be the Tin Age of KMC.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by DarthZoom
The ring doesn't add to the ION power really, it just keeps the lead from killing Yat.

Whether Yat or Kyle, X-man takes this unless it's original Ion.

it doesn't matter if it's Kyle or Yat Ion..
both can beat Nate..Ion 10/10..Ion is just way more powerful..

Prep-Man
Kyle.

Mindset
Originally posted by batdude123
facepalm

This must be the Tin Age of KMC. I don't think fire has been discovered yet.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Slaanesh
it doesn't matter if it's Kyle or Yat Ion..
both can beat Nate..Ion 10/10..Ion is just way more powerful..

Original Ion yes, current Ion gets whopped. The current Ion doesn't have the feats the Original had.

Prep-Man
no, but kyle does. and that's just with a ring.

batdude123
Originally posted by Mindset
I don't think fire has been discovered yet.

True. It's the age where humans haven't even evolved from apes yet.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Prep-Man
no, but kyle does. and that's just with a ring.

How so?

Slaanesh
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Original Ion yes, current Ion gets whopped. The current Ion doesn't have the feats the Original had.

he fought Prime longer than anybody did..he change a red star to yellow..all that > whatever Nate ever did..

Mindset
nope

batdude123
laughing out loud

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Slaanesh
he fought Prime longer than anybody did..he change a red star to yellow..all that > whatever Nate ever did..

Prime kicked his ass.

Again, read Nate's powerset

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nate_Grey#Powers_and_abilities

Slaanesh
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Prime kicked his ass.

Again, read Nate's powerset

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nate_Grey#Powers_and_abilities

i said he fought Prime longer than anybody did..i didn't say he beat Prime..

nothing is in there to make me think he can beat Yat with Ion power..

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Slaanesh
i said he fought Prime longer than anybody did..i didn't say he beat Prime..

nothing is in there to make me think he can beat Yat with Ion power..

I don't think anything could convince you.

But let's see:

1.The character has the ability to tap into the enormous psychic resources of the astral plane in order to manipulate matter and energy.

2.This grants him incredible psychic powers including telepathy and telekinesis. He can use his telepathy to , control minds, create illusions by altering the perceptions of others, fire psionic blasts that can scramble an opponent's thought processes (causing the victim either intense pain, or rendering them unconscious)

3.Upon examination by Moira Mactaggert, she suggested his psionic powers rivalled that of a Phoenix Force-imbued Jean Grey. In another instance, he was measured as having a psionic energy output matching that of the Dark Phoenix.

4.He was also an extremely powerful telekinetic who could phase through solid matter, create destructive psionic spikes, and lift objects weighing up to 10 tons.

Mindset
Why'd you just copy and paste what wiki said?

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Mindset
Why'd you just copy and paste what wiki said?

And from the Marvel database as well.

Mindset
Oh sorry, my bad.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Mindset
Oh sorry, my bad.

It's cool. Happy Dance

Mindset
Bring it in, let's hug it out.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Mindset
Bring it in, let's hug it out.
http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/love/love_453.gif

batdude123
0ZvarRe-XVQ

Slaanesh
Originally posted by DarthZoom
I don't think anything could convince you.

But let's see:

1.The character has the ability to tap into the enormous psychic resources of the astral plane in order to manipulate matter and energy.

2.This grants him incredible psychic powers including telepathy and telekinesis. He can use his telepathy to , control minds, create illusions by altering the perceptions of others, fire psionic blasts that can scramble an opponent's thought processes (causing the victim either intense pain, or rendering them unconscious)

3.Upon examination by Moira Mactaggert, she suggested his psionic powers rivalled that of a Phoenix Force-imbued Jean Grey. In another instance, he was measured as having a psionic energy output matching that of the Dark Phoenix.

4.He was also an extremely powerful telekinetic who could phase through solid matter, create destructive psionic spikes, and lift objects weighing up to 10 tons.

1. Ion can manipulate matter and energy too..

2. Lantern have a very high mental defence..

3. Yat is a daxamites..that's near Supes level of durability..and on top of that..he got GL shield..Prime HV that can burn through Supes didn't even put a scratch on him..

4. 10 ton..that's it??what so impressive about that??

Mindset
He can lift a lot more than 10 tons, a lot.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Slaanesh
1. Ion can manipulate matter and energy too..

2. Lantern have a very high mental defence..

3. Yat is a daxamites..that's near Supes level of durability..and on top of that..he got GL shield..Prime HV that can burn through Supes didn't even put a scratch on him..

4. 10 ton..that's it??what so impressive about that??

1. Nate turns his costume and the air around him into lead.

2. Mental defenses are one thing, this is a guy who forced Xavier out of the Astral Plane. Hector Hammond has given GL's trouble.

3. Nate Can phase thorugh matter and yank his heart out, he can telekinetically redirect the flow of blood to his brain.

4. He has a Phoenix level of power.

id369
BTW - What X-Man will look like, when Dark X-Men mini gets released (art by Leonard Kirk)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8519/shamanxman.jpg

Prep-Man
Originally posted by DarthZoom
1. Nate turns his costume and the air around him into lead.

2. Mental defenses are one thing, this is a guy who forced Xavier out of the Astral Plane. Hector Hammond has given GL's trouble.

3. Nate Can phase thorugh matter and yank his heart out, he can telekinetically redirect the flow of blood to his brain.

4. He has a Phoenix level of power.

Heaven's Ladder is more impressive than most of that, plus he has resisted part of the Anti Life Equation, IIRC.

Survivor19
Nate Grey was also able to create solid psionic constructs...

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by DarthZoom
And from the Marvel database as well.

Doesn't really make a difference one way or another.

thanos-prime
Nate FTW

Juntai
ION ftw.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by thanos-prime
Nate FTW

Definately Nate, If this is Ion Kyle Post IC, then Nate can just either phase into him and rip his heart out, or screw him up mentally. Or just TK him in half or many other options.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Juntai
ION ftw.

It's not even a fight.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
It's not even a fight.

If it's Original Ion I agree. If it's post IC Ion then this goes to Nate.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by DarthZoom
If it's Original Ion I agree. If it's post IC Ion then this goes to Nate.

No.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
No.
Yes.

Warlord
nice...

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Warlord
nice...

Hey I already offered up ways he could do it.

Warlord
yep...still the No-Yes debate was priceless

Lord Feron
Originally posted by Warlord
yep...still the No-Yes debate was priceless thumb up

iceman24567
lol

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
If it's Original Ion I agree. If it's post IC Ion then this goes to Nate.

This is post IC Ion. (What ever IC is). Why would Nate take the win?

Originally posted by DarthZoom
The ring doesn't add to the ION power really, it just keeps the lead from killing Yat.

Whether Yat or Kyle, X-man takes this unless it's original Ion.

Kyle has higher highs. Both in durability and energy output.

gobstakid777
nathan's hot dogs ftw

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
This is post IC Ion. (What ever IC is). Why would Nate take the win?

Infinate Crisis, and Nate has a stronger powerset. Plus GL's have had trouble with Hector Hammond mind controlling them. Your putting that up against a guy who can push Xavier out of the astral plane?



Such as?

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Infinate Crisis, and Nate has a stronger powerset. Plus GL's have had trouble with Hector Hammond mind controlling them. Your putting that up against a guy who can push Xavier out of the astral plane?



With out any powers, Kyle has a rugged mental fortitude. He has overcome powerful telepaths in separate occasion. Psimon and the Controllers come to mind.

Originally posted by DarthZoom

Such as?
Output.
Forcibly containing the weaponized black hole known as the Blind.
Destroying planet OA.
Forcing the Sun to go Super Nova.

Durability.
Casually flying through a black hole.
Shields hold up against massive entropic energy washing over an entire region in space.
Shields hold up against massive antimatter storm, destroying entire solar systems.
Sustained an attack from Parallax in Zero Hour.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
With out any powers, Kyle has a rugged mental fortitude. He has overcome powerful telepaths in separate occasion. Psimon and the Controllers come to mind.

Again Hector Hammond gives GL's trouble. Parallax was able to control him.

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Again Hector Hammond gives GL's trouble. Parallax was able to control him.

This does not take away Kyle showings. Both Psymon and the Controllers are superior Hector Hammond.

Parallax is a different case. Telepathy was not the case of his control over Kyle. But the fact, that it is a parasitic leach that bounds to its host through fear.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
This does not take away Kyle showings. Both Psymon and the Controllers are superior Hector Hammond.

Parallax is a different case. Telepathy was not the case of his control over Kyle. But the fact, that it is a parasitic leach that bounds to its host through fear.

It still shows he can be controlled and Nate has TP stronger then Professor X. He has a power level on par with the Phoenix.

And whats to stop him from going intangible and just ripping out Kyle's heart?

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
It still shows he can be controlled and Nate has TP stronger then Professor X. He has a power level on par with the Phoenix.

And whats to stop him from going intangible and just ripping out Kyle's heart?
Nate is not the embodimeint of fear. A diffrent powerset was used, to acomplish said feat. The time telepathy has bin used, Kyle has overcame it.

Nate has never accessed those vast energy reserves and live to brag about them. The one time he did, he instantly overloaded himself and died.


What keeps Nate going intangible and ripping his heart out? You mean besides the shields? How about Kyle going intangible himself.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
Nate has never accessed those vast energy reserves and live to brag about them. The one time he did, he instantly overloaded himself and died.


What keeps Nate going intangible and ripping his heart out. You mean besides the shields? How about Kyle going intangible himself.

Yes he has, when he first appear in the 616 universe, he forced Xavier right out of the Astral Plane.

And when has Kyle gone intangible?

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Yes he has, when he first appear in the 616 universe, he forced Xavier right out of the Astral Plane.

And when has Kyle gone intangible?

Thats more or less Nate's ability to manipulate the astral plane into the real world. A feat previously thought to be impossible.


Kyle went intangible in GLv3 around issue 160's.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
Thats more or less Nate's ability to manipulate the astral plane into the real world. A feat previously thought to be impossible.

No, thats not what it said on panel, Xavier was painfully forced out. His astral form wasn't brought into the real world.



Was that as Original Ion?

id369

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
coffee1
I really don’t feel like arguing useless schematics. Its not like Nate will pull Kyle from the astral plane. But here keep note.


He was able to pull my astral self into the real world - Xavier (X-Man #11)
http://h.imagehost.org/t/0268/X-Man_011_Large09.jpg
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0268/X-Man_011_Large09


Thats not the example I'm talking about. When Nate frist arrived, Xavier was exploring the Astral Plane and experienced such agony from X-man's presence there that he was forced out. He was swimming in a pool at the time if I recall correctly.



Can you find out the issue number?

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Thats not the example I'm talking about. When Nate frist arrived, Xavier was exploring the Astral Plane and experienced such agony from X-man's presence there that he was forced out. He was swimming in a pool at the time if I recall correctly.


Ok I know of the instance. But that in it of itself, holds little value in a confrontation. Kyle does not relay on the psi or the astral plane.

Originally posted by DarthZoom


Can you find out the issue number?
Green Lantern v3 #167 pg20
http://h.imagehost.org/t/0219/20_10.jpg
http://h.imagehost.org/0219/20_10.jpg

Phasing through matter, was never an ability outside of the reach of a GL. Even for post crisis Green Lanterns.

Green Lantern - Legacy
An explanation of what it means to be a Green Lantern and Manipulate its power by Hal Jordan.


http://g.imagehost.org/t/0402/GLLegacy_pg057.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0636/GLLegacy_pg058.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0402/GLLegacy_pg057.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0636/GLLegacy_pg058.jpg

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
Ok I know of the instance. But that in it of itself, holds little value in a confrontation. Kyle does not relay on the psi or the astral plane.

And your point would be? It still shows Nate has TP beyond that of Xavier and GL's have trouble with second string TP's like Hector Hammond.

Thanks for the scans, okay so that attack may not work, although, if Black Lanterns can rip out their hearts why wouldn't Nate be able to? Just asking.

id369

DarthZoom
Okay so your putting them on par with a TP power that beats out Xavier handidly?


This actually brings up a whole new debate. Is Ion's power in this feild greater then Nates? If one goes intagible, can the other force them back into solid form? And if not, then wouldn't that render this match a stalemate?

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Okay so your putting them on par with a TP power that beats out Xavier handidly?




Psimon wrecks planets. The Controllers are equivalent to Guardians of the Universe. Draw your own conclusion, but those are not weak characters.

Originally posted by DarthZoom

This actually brings up a whole new debate. Is Ion's power in this feild greater then Nates? If one goes intagible, can the other force them back into solid form? And if not, then wouldn't that render this match a stalemate?

Who is the greater energy/matter manipulator of the two?

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
Psimon wrecks planets. The Controllers are equivalent to Guardians of the Universe. Draw your own conclusion, but those are not weak characters.

Shadow King can do the same and Nate is stronger then him. Keep in mind Nate's psionic power is on par with the Phoenix.



To be honest not sure.

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
Shadow King can do the same and Nate is stronger then him. Keep in mind Nate's psionic power is on par with the Phoenix.


His potential my rival the Phoenix. He cant risk, tapping into that potential because his body cant handle the strain.

The Phoenix Force destroys suns, tosses moons, ignites planets. Could vary well wipe out a Galaxy, on a whim. Nate has not shown even remotely this level of power, because of the risk he run of going into critical mass.

Originally posted by DarthZoom

To be honest not sure.
For starters. At best, Nate (Cable) has shown matter manipulation across the globe. Kyle has recreated an entire planet on two separate occasions.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by id369
His potential my rival the Phoenix. He cant risk, tapping into that potential because his body cant handle the strain.
As I said telepathically he has.


That shows a greater distance, but not nessecairly a greater level of power.

Example:

You have a gun that fires at 10 meters, I have a rocket laucher that only fire 5 meters. Range isn't the same as power output. I agree with you that Ion most likely has a greater range.

id369
Originally posted by DarthZoom
As I said telepathically he has.



Nate falls short to the telepathic feats performed by the Phoenix. Because if he did, I would have referenced it in either Phoenix or X-Man’s respect thread.

Originally posted by DarthZoom


That shows a greater distance, but not nessecairly a greater level of power.

Example:

You have a gun that fires at 10 meters, I have a rocket laucher that only fire 5 meters. Range isn't the same as power output. I agree with you that Ion most likely has a greater range.

An entire planet was rendered to cinders and debris. Kyle effectively molded it back together. How is this a lack of power? Nate has nothing to show that level matter manipulation.

Prep-Man
Kyle.

Warlord
Ion although Nate would beat normal GL KyLE

Juntai
Originally posted by id369
Ok I know of the instance. But that in it of itself, holds little value in a confrontation. Kyle does not relay on the psi or the astral plane.


Green Lantern v3 #167 pg20
http://h.imagehost.org/t/0219/20_10.jpg
http://h.imagehost.org/0219/20_10.jpg

Phasing through matter, was never an ability outside of the reach of a GL. Even for post crisis Green Lanterns.

Green Lantern - Legacy
An explanation of what it means to be a Green Lantern and Manipulate its power by Hal Jordan.


http://g.imagehost.org/t/0402/GLLegacy_pg057.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0636/GLLegacy_pg058.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0402/GLLegacy_pg057.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0636/GLLegacy_pg058.jpg In the same comic, Marty, using Hal's tactics, put Psi shields over himself and Tom, that completely nullified any Psi attacks from Martian Manhunter.

DarthZoom

Juntai
Originally posted by DarthZoom

Who is Marty? And like I said guys like Hector Hammond give GL's trouble. Marty is Hal's good side manifest from Hal Jordan's power, while Hal Jordan was dead. Sort of a fail-safe Hal left behind during Final Night.

When Hal had trouble keeping his concentration against Hammond as a rookie, Sinestro mocked him that he could actually lose his concentration to a telepath.


In the current Green Lantern run, when Hal went t see Hammond, he had to specifically lower his defenses to allow Hammond into his mind. He simply couldn't otherwise.

DarthZoom
Originally posted by Juntai
In the current Green Lantern run, when Hal went t see Hammond, he had to specifically lower his defenses to allow Hammond into his mind. He simply couldn't otherwise.

I don't think it spacifically stated he couldn't otherwise, do you have a scan?

In Green Lantern 80-Page Giant #2 he is able to exert control over a GL. Impluse had to pull the Lantern away to save him.

And I'm not saying Nate would be able to control them forever, but should be able to long enough.

Also as I said how is Kyle supposed to kill Nate?

Juntai
Originally posted by DarthZoom
I don't think it spacifically stated he couldn't otherwise, do you have a scan?

In Green Lantern 80-Page Giant #2 he is able to exert control over a GL. Impluse had to pull the Lantern away to save him.

And I'm not saying Nate would be able to control them forever, but should be able to long enough.

Also as I said how is Kyle supposed to kill Nate? Did he have psi inhibitors mentioned as being up in that issue? Or psi defense of any kind being said to be in place?
Was it Kyle or Hal or Guy or..?

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