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Obi-Wan at his height, which Sith Lords could he defeat?

Almost all of them

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Almost all of them

Like Bane, Dooku, Vader, Sidious and Caedus?

Just for anyone wondering:

How many sith have there been in the entire order's history (not just the famous ones)?

Now count how many Kenobi CAN'T beat

Now divide that number by the total number of sith.

Now multiply it by 100.

Now put a percentage sign next to it.

You'll see that the percentage is far less than 0.1%.

Do you believe that you're the only one who understands that there have been an assload of Sith Lords in the SW universe? Most are unknowns and so we have no idea if Obi-Wan could beat them or not.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Do you believe that you're the only one who understands that there have been an assload of Sith Lords in the SW universe? Most are unknowns and so we have no idea if Obi-Wan could beat them or not.

By "unknowns" do you mean sith like Ragnos and Revan that are powerful but it's unkown HOW powerful?

Or just random run of the mill no name sith that we never heard about and never will?

Most of the former are superior/close to Kenobi, but all of the latter are no where close.

Here's my scale:
1. Obi-Wan makes mincemeat out of Darth Maul, Darth Zannah, and anyone from Krayt's Sith Order including Krayt himself.
2. Dooku for a debatable outcome
3. Even with Vader
4. Dies against anyone above Vader's level (That's Exar Kun, Darth Caedus, Post-Russan Bane, Orbalisk Bane, and both versions of Sidious)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Most of the former are superior/close to Kenobi, but all of the latter are no where close.

Can you prove this?

Vorpal Ruin
Can you prove this?

Don't bother. The guy just told me that Yoda may be better than Obi-Wan, but he's definitely not better than Obi-Wan and a starfleet. I think I've lost IQ points from reading his bullshit.

Put him on ignore and be done with it.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Can you prove this?

OF COURSE I CAN PROVE IT!

Take Ten Thousand...Multiply it by Twelve Hundred Thousand. Then Subtract Eight Million and THAT is how many Sith can destroy Obi-Wan Kenobi with their Pinky Finger alone.

Originally posted by Gideon
Don't bother. The guy just told me that Yoda may be better than Obi-Wan, but he's definitely not better than Obi-Wan and a starfleet. I think I've lost IQ points from reading his bullshit.

Put him on ignore and be done with it.

So Obi Wan with a fleet can't beat Yoda?

And you always take everything I say literally. It was an exaggeration to show that Sidious > Bane doesn't mean that Sidious > Bane with ORBALISKS.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Can you prove this?

Former I can't because they're unknowns, just educated speculation really.

Latter I can, because those sith are no name for a reason.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Latter I can, because those sith are no name for a reason.



I wish I could help you.

OK then.

Obi Wan beat Grevious, who was capable of beating 5 council members at once.

Those council members are on the council for a reason. They're obviously above no name jedi/sith.

Jedi are only put on the council for their combat abilities?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Jedi are only put on the council for their combat abilities?

No, but all of them are also remarkable fighters compared to random jedi/sith.

Think about it: Obi Wan is THE master of Soresu, beat Maul (albeit due to Maul's overconfidence) and Grevious.

No name sith are just average, random sith that can't hope to stand up to someone that is not a no name due to his superior skill in combat, the Force, diplomacy and legacy.

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Here's my scale:
1. Obi-Wan makes mincemeat out of Darth Maul, Darth Zannah, and anyone from Krayt's Sith Order including Krayt himself. Uh, how exactly does he make "mincemeat" out of Maul, when Maul is his superior and defeated and all but killed Kenobi, after killing Qui Gonn while being injured? Together the Jedi team was no match for Maul, let alone Ob1 by himself. OB1 even had to tap into the darkside to defeat Maul in the very end. If Maul wasn't so sure that victory was his and finished him while he had the chance (however the story wouldn't allow that), then OB1 would have been SOL.


Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
2. Dooku for a debatable outcome How is Dooku pwning OB1 TWICE a debateable outcome? As a Jedi, Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history and was an even greater Sith. He was the foremost lightsaber instructor in the Order, and had a wealth of knowledge in all saber forms and mastered the finest lightsaber form to it's highest degree. He was one of only two people to ever defeat Mace, and has 8 decades of experience, some of which were during the turbulent times of the Clone Wars.

Sorry, OB1 loses here too.


Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
3. Even with Vader Uh... how so? Even in RoTS it was stated that Anakin/Vader was the more powerful of the two, OB1 just had the experience edge along with not having his mind a judgment clouded by the darkside, as Anakin did before he learned how to control it. Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, who is a league or two above OB1. He got a lucky hit on an enraged Anakin and had no chance of beating him in ANH, hence the suicide move.


Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
4. Dies against anyone above Vader's level (That's Exar Kun, Darth Caedus, Post-Russan Bane, Orbalisk Bane, and both versions of Sidious) There's a few more as well. All in all, he's defeated by more than he beats.

His only chance is his Soresu (spelling?) which will only by him time. He can run, but just die tired.

He only beat GG because of his form, and because GG has no force ability AND it should be mentioned that he had to kill him with a blaster... not his saber.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Uh, how exactly does he make "mincemeat" out of Maul, when Maul is his superior and defeated and all but killed Kenobi, after killing Qui Gonn while being injured? Together the Jedi team was no match for Maul, let alone Ob1 by himself. OB1 even had to tap into the darkside to defeat Maul in the very end. If Maul wasn't so sure that victory was his and finished him while he had the chance (however the story wouldn't allow that), then OB1 would have been SOL.


How is Dooku pwning OB1 TWICE a debateable outcome? As a Jedi, Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history and was an even greater Sith. He was the foremost lightsaber instructor in the Order, and had a wealth of knowledge in all saber forms and mastered the finest lightsaber form to it's highest degree. He was one of only two people to ever defeat Mace, and has 8 decades of experience, some of which were during the turbulent times of the Clone Wars.

Sorry, OB1 loses here too.


Uh... how so? Even in RoTS it was stated that Anakin/Vader was the more powerful of the two, OB1 just had the experience edge along with not having his mind a judgment clouded by the darkside, as Anakin did before he learned how to control it. Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, who is a league or two above OB1. He got a lucky hit on an enraged Anakin and had no chance of beating him in ANH, hence the suicide move.


There's a few more as well. All in all, he's defeated by more than he beats.

His only chance is his Soresu (spelling?) which will only by him time. He can run, but just die tired.

He only beat GG because of his form, and because GG has no force ability AND it should be mentioned that he had to kill him with a blaster... not his saber. I agree on almost everything. The part about Zannah, I think it would be even. She uses Soresu in my inference is correct, and she also has sith sorcery (albeit difficult to use in combat, she only needs a second) along with her command of the force which, I must add, had the ppotential to surpass Bane, who would have mauled Kenobi.


Also about Maul, that was a padawan Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan at his best may have been able to kill him, can some1 give me a list of feats for Maul and the force and a saber plz? (plz make sure in force that it works on jedi, so mind tricks wouldnt be usable)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So Obi Wan with a fleet can't beat Yoda?

And you always take everything I say literally. It was an exaggeration to show that Sidious > Bane doesn't mean that Sidious > Bane with ORBALISKS.



Former I can't because they're unknowns, just educated speculation really.

Latter I can, because those sith are no name for a reason.

Yeah but sidious > bane with the orbalisks.

OK Then. Here's my NEW scale
1. Obi-Wan still makes mincemeat out of Krayt's Order and Zannah
2. Kills Maul BUT it's close. Obi-Wan did beat DS Anakin who was much better then Maul and he's a Soresu Master.
3. Loses to anyone else.

Well being that he has a defensive style, I don't see him making mincemeat out of anyone as opposed to gaining a strike or two in between defensive maneuvers. So i still don't see him beating Maul. Well I'd give it to Maul 7/10 to make room for flukes.

With Anakin, Anakin wasn't thinking clearly and had they fought under any other circumstance, OB1 would be "mincemeat."

They knew each other more intimately than lovers, i think the quote went, so that definitely made a difference in their fight. Had Anakin not jumped right then, Anakin wouldn't have lost. Plus they had to work it into the story, but whatever. Have them fight 9 more times and I'd say that Anakin takes them all. That was also a situational win given the environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKsErC1koQ


Listen to the song, this is what Obi-Wan becomes cuz he just got pwned so many times by so many sith lords, its not even funny.



Ok, maybe it is.......

I'd say Kenobi beats maul. The difference between even AOTC and ROTS kenobi is noted by Dooku, who finds it remarkable. He has a completely different style from TPM to ROTS, and is the The Master of Soresu. In the era in which he is called this, his saber skills are undefeated. He beat General Grievous and Dark Side Skywalker (i.e, the one that beat Dooku.)

Consider Maul certainly didn't wipe the floor with Qui-Gonn Jinn, an aging Jedi master who was said to be tiring (for some weird reason, since he WAS a jedi who should have been able to sustain himself with the force) by the end of the fight. So was maul's greatest feat killing QGJ, or killing Bondara?

Either way, Kenobi's two victories are more impressive than those of Bondara.

if someone were to say skywalker was more powerful than kenobi, so kenobi won by a fluke it is a half truth. The first half of the sentence is true, but the ROTS novelization makes clear that in the actual fight between Kenobi and Anakin, Kenobi dominated the fight. He chose where they would fight, he chose to give ground, he passed on at least one opportunity to kill Kenobi, while Anakin passed on no such chances.

Each of the statements from the novel collaborate with moments on the bigscreen, The movie might make it look like Kenobi is losing, but when that exact moment is described in the novel as Kenobi choosing to let Anakin do something... the novel does not contradict the movie, merely further explains what we are seeing, and stands as the correct canon viewpoint.

But I digress.

Obi-Wan will lose to KNOWN Sith: Sidious, Bane, Dooku
PROBABLY ROTJ Vader.

In each of these cases, Kenobi is destroyed with the force, since that seems to be simply the best way to take him out.

Also, Probably (but unprovable) Revan, Marka Ragnos, and Exar Kun

I think he wins the rest.

No name Sith Lords are average? That means Bandon must be pro.

So... Logically. Bandon=Dooku because they both have names, and Dooku casually dispatched Obi Wan...

So... Bandon> Kenobi?

Originally posted by truejedi
Consider Maul certainly didn't wipe the floor with Qui-Gonn Jinn, an aging Jedi master who was said to be tiring (for some weird reason, since he WAS a jedi who should have been able to sustain himself with the force) by the end of the fight. So was maul's greatest feat killing QGJ, or killing Bondara?

Oh dear Buddha, Maul curbstomped Qui-Gon on Tatooine using one side of his blade and only testing him. Qui-Gon was left just short of losing his life and on the brink of a heart attack. On Naboo, he was beating both Jedi around like they were his redheaded step-children. The movie, the novel, and other materials (such as the Official Star Wars Fact File #1) corroborate that.



Anoon Bondara was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order when it consisted of people like Mace Windu, Yoda, and Dooku. He was the battle master of the entire Order. Kenobi beat Grievous...and? How does that make him close to as good as people like Anoon or Maul?

His victory against Anakin was entirely situational. He didn't beat Anakin in a direct fight because he knew that he couldn't, and so do we.



Kenobi didn't have any chance to pass on. At all. The movie shows Obi-Wan clearly trying to kill Anakin at every step. When he trips Anakin to the ground, he Force pulls his saber to him and tries to cleave him. Kenobi also didn't "dominate" the fight, he gave ground because he couldn't beat Anakin in a fair fight. He didn't choose to give ground, he had to. Kenobi has to resort to distractions like platform balancing, swinging from cables, and lava skating.



The movie shows Anakin forcing Kenobi to pull any trick he think of out of the bag and getting his ass beat with 20 second long Dragon Sleeper holds and melee attacks.

The novel also says that Kenobi was trying to do anything he could to slow Anakin down. He wasn't able to match him directly.

Originally posted by Advent
Oh dear Buddha, Maul curbstomped Qui-Gon on Tatooine using one side of his blade and only testing him. Qui-Gon was left just short of losing his life and on the brink of a heart attack. On Naboo, he was beating both Jedi around like they were his redheaded step-children. The movie, the novel, and other materials (such as the Official Star Wars Fact File #1) corroborate that.
Actually, there was no curbstomp on Tatooine, as opposed to him pushing Qui Gon back but unable to deal a killing blow. I suggest you look up the meaning of words before using them in improper context. And Maul was testing Qui Gon? Please prove it. Otherwise stop making shit up.




Boondara was the most technically skilled duelist, NOT the best.


This is irrelevant. They both knew each other inside and out and Obiwan was the smarter fighter.




Or because he's a defensive fighter? Could that be why he gave ground? The entire fight was fair and the simple result was this: Skywalker couldn't break Obiwan's defenses. Stop twisting things around.




And the realistic fight shows Obiwan knocking Anakin back a few times while Anakin did the rest. REALITY>Advent.


THe movie shows otherwise.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Actually, there was no curbstomp on Tatooine, as opposed to him pushing Qui Gon back but unable to deal a killing blow. I suggest you look up the meaning of words before using them in improper context. And Maul was testing Qui Gon? Please prove it. Otherwise stop making shit up.

"Qui-Gon, surprised by the other's quickness and ferocity, barely blocked the blow with his own weapon, the blades sliding apart with a harsh rasp.

His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.

Qui-Gon had barely managed to scramble up the rampway and into the interior of the ship before the hatch sealed and the Nubian began to accelerate. He lay on the cool metal floor of the entry, his clothing dusty and damp with his sweat, his body bruised and battered. He breathed deeply, waiting for his pounding heart to quiet. He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely."

Maul was only using one blade of his lightsaber. He didn't even activate the second, which is what he normally fights with. That's a test that left Qui-Gon "barely escaping with his life".



"The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none." (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter)

"Renown for his skill with a lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded as a role model who's combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order." (Jedi Academy Training Manual, Ch. 6, pg. 97)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say he "wasn't the best". Who was and why?



It's irrelevant that Obi-Wan didn't win in a direct fight and the battle relied on the structures built on Mustafar? I beg to differ because those two things give context to the Obi-Wan's victory. The simple fact is that Anakin is much more skilled and powerful than he is, so when it's brought up that "Kenobi beat Anakin", that needs to be pointed out.



You think platform jumping, tight rope jumping, and lava skating are "fair ground"? No, they aren't by any reasonable measures. It's specifically mentioned in the novel that Obi-Wan was trying to do anything he could to avoid Anakin's onslaught. That means he didn't choose to retreat, he had to.



He was put in a Dragon Sleeper hold for almost 20 seconds. That was shown in the movie.

At the start of the duel, Anakin boots kicks him square in the chest that tosses Obi-Wan into the air. That was shown in the movie.

Anakin kicks Obi-Wan dead in the chin sending him stumbling backwards while verbally expressing the blow as "ACCCCK". That was shown in the movie

By comparison, Obi-Wan only ends up tripping Anakin and tries to score a couple of light kicks.



Don't be nugatory when writing to Advent.

Originally posted by Advent
"Qui-Gon, surprised by the other's quickness and ferocity, barely blocked the blow with his own weapon, the blades sliding apart with a harsh rasp.

His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.


Qui-Gon had barely managed to scramble up the rampway and into the interior of the ship before the hatch sealed and the Nubian began to accelerate. He lay on the cool metal floor of the entry, his clothing dusty and damp with his sweat, his body bruised and battered. He breathed deeply, waiting for his pounding heart to quiet. He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely."

Maul was only using one blade of his lightsaber. He didn't even activate the second, which is what he normally fights with. That's a test that left Qui-Gon "barely escaping with his life".
You are probably misunderstanding my position. In no way am I arguing for Qui Gon. I'm simply stating that you're making shit up.
You called the fight a "curb stomp" and claimed Maul was "testing him".




Advent, do you try anymore? You CLAIMED he was the best. Then you invoke a quote that supports my argument and contradicts yours. He was one of the best=/= the best. You then invoke ANOTHER quote which supports my argument that he was the most technically skilled duelist with "his skill.." Are you TRYING to make my argument for me. Being the most technically skilled=/=the best.




I'm not arguing that Kenobi is superior to Anakin because he won. I AM arguing that they are equals because they know each other so well, and Anakin couldn't penetrate Obi Wan's defense.




He fought on the defensive the entire fight. Skywalker couldn't penetrate his defenses EVEN on fair ground. Skywalker got impatient, he lost.




Obiwan gets kicks in, Anakin gets kicks in. My memory of WWF finishing moves is a little hazy so you'll have to remind me what the dragon sleeper is, because I don't think it is what you think it is.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You are probably misunderstanding my position. In no way am I arguing for Qui Gon. I'm simply stating that you're making shit up.
You called the fight a "curb stomp" and claimed Maul was "testing him".

I'm making shit up because I used the word "curb stomp"? Can you remind us where "curb stomp" is defined in Webster's? Or are you just fulfilling the complete and utter dumbass prophecy that's been foretold? Please. I have better things to do with my time than such an idiotic and feeble charge.

Maul using one side of his blade is evidence he was testing him since he's a double-bladed lightsaber user. That's very simplistic to understand, so quit making shit up about me making shit up.



Originally posted by Advent
Anoon Bondara was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order

How do those two quotes support your argument when mine is simply exactly what they say: he was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order. Apparently, you're confused because I didn't specify "lightsaber" before duelist.



That's your interpretation; mine differs. And I expect the retort to go along the lines of "BUT MINE'S RIGHT ADVENT", to which I'll reply, "That's your interpretation; mine differs".

Originally posted by Advent
I'm "making shit up" because I used the word "curb stomp"? Can you remind us where "curb stomp" is defined in Webster's? Or are you just fulfilling the complete and utter dumbass prophecy you've been foretold? Please. I have better things to do with my time than such a idiotic and feeble charge.
Like..Making shit up? Curb stomp means Qui Gon got his ass kicked. Do you want to know what it DOESN'T mean? Qui Gon getting backed up.


You're an idiot advent. What is with the constant reaching? He was a double bladed light saber user who was also proficient with a single blade. How about the fact that he didn't think he needed a double blade against the one opponent? This is too easy.






Sweetheart. You said he was the best duelist. I said he was the most technically skilled. Your quotes said that he was one of the BEST duelists, and the most skilled. Ergo, it supports my argument that he WASN'T the best, but the most skilled. Understand?





Um...No? I'm going to ask you once again. Are you even trying anymore?

"Renown for his skill with a lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded as a role model who's combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order." (Jedi Academy Training Manual, Ch. 6, pg. 97)


Combat prowess encapsulates all forms of combat related abilities right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Renown for his skill with a lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded as a role model who's combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order." (Jedi Academy Training Manual, Ch. 6, pg. 97)


Combat prowess encapsulates all forms of combat related abilities right?

Rofl

Huh?


Edit: Someone obviously has his panties in a twist.

I don't know if you were serious or not but the answer is no. Advent has difficulty differentiating between "most powerful" and "most skilled".

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Like..Making shit up? Curb stomp means Qui Gon got his ass kicked. Do you want to know what it DOESN'T mean? Qui Gon getting backed up.

Qui-Gon "just barely escaping with his life" when Maul was using one end of his blade isn't getting his ass kicked? I'd say it certainly is. You're making bogus arguments out of semantics.



You need to explain why "he didn't think he needed a double-bladed against one opponent" because it's out of character for Maul. Against even a padawan like Darsha Assant he used both blades. Why should that be any different than his battle on Tatooine? He was testing him and according to Qui-Gon, "tested him severely".



No, because the quote said that he was "one of the best fighters" (not duelist). When Jedi fight, they use the Force. Ergo, the Force was inclusive when that statement was made. Good game. Having "unmatched combat prowess" and "skill second to none" makes him the best lightsaber duelist of the Order. You've come up with nothing to contradict that other than repeating "he was the most technically skilled" as if that means something.



I never have to try when I'm debating you. Your arguments about Anakin and Obi-Wan are based on what you interpreted from the duel. You are too entrenched in your beliefs and bitterness towards me that no matter what I say, you'll just say "no" because you only hear what you want to hear and are a damned troll.

Originally posted by Advent
Qui-Gon "just barely escaping with his life" when Maul was using one end of his blade isn't getting his ass kicked? I'd say it certainly is. You're making bogus arguments out of semantics.
No, I'm really not. Because we both saw the fight and while he was driving Qui Gon back, it certainly was not a curbstomp.




I don't have to contradict it. There's nothing suggesting the most skilled equates to being the best. Mace was better, Yoda was the best.





I have no bitterness towards you. I just laugh at your lack of self awareness when you claim I'm making shit up and that i'm a troll, with arguments like this. And you're right, you don't have to try, which is why you're getting your ass kicked.

Originally posted by Advent
Oh dear Buddha, Maul curbstomped Qui-Gon on Tatooine using one side of his blade and only testing him. Qui-Gon was left just short of losing his life and on the brink of a heart attack. On Naboo, he was beating both Jedi around like they were his redheaded step-children. The movie, the novel, and other materials (such as the Official Star Wars Fact File #1) corroborate that.


Define curbstomp? Also,on Naboo, the fight was clearly not as one-sided as you just stated it to be. At one point Maul was on the ground with QGJ trying to land the final blow, (from the movie) Maul kicks QGJ away, but that ends the use of the word curbstomp. Kenobi cutting his saber in half also ends the word curbstomp.

Curbstomp is Luke picking Jacen up and throwing him into the chair an not letting him move, imho. A fight that can go either way is not a curbstomp.



Let us see... Kas'sim was the best DUELIST in his order, hardly made him the most powerful by a long shot. Kenobi beat Grievous and Dark Side anakin, Dark Side anakin made a JOKE out of count dooku. Grievous also has more combat feats than Bondara ever did.



This is bull. They fought a direct fight, Obi-Wan won. What is your definiton of a direct fight? Fists and teeth?



He did. ROTS summary, because I'm at school, i'll give exact quotes for all these tonight. I've posted them elsewhere, but it was long ago.

Kenobi gets both his hand on Anakin's lightsaber (supported by the movie, where they are holding each other's sabers together) He has the moment to kill Anakin, and hesitates, allowing Anakin to use the force to push Kenobi back.

Another "quote" from the book:

"kenobi gave ground, both because it was his way, and because he knew to strike Anakin down would burn his heart to ash."



Not until the "He knew what do with attachement, he let it go" subquote most of the way through the fight. I will give you exact quotes later, or if you have ROTS, just read the fight.



Prove it.



I have an exact quote that makes every single part of this argument null and void.

it starts with " In every exchange, Kenobi gave way...." give it all to you tonight.

Second, when they went out onto the lava, they went there because "It was a place he (kenobi) decided, they should reach together."

Finally, even when being kicked outside for the first time, the Novel says that Kenobi did it on purpose. "positioned his blade so that Anakin's next kick carried him through the wall behind him."


I dont' blame you for not knowing this if you haven't read ROTS novel, but it is all very clearly laid out therein.




"In every exchange Kenobi gave ground." 3 blows of a saber and a kick is an exchange. A choke move followed by a throw is an exchange. Plus, the choke hold was the result of Kenobi passing on his chance to kill Anakin.

Even though, and I agree, that the movie makes it APPEAR as though Kenobi is getting it handed to him, the novel does not contradict the movie, but re-explains what is happening on screen to show that Kenobi is in control.
Since it doesn't contradict the movie, it IS canon.



First sentence, true. That really changes nothing by itself. Any combatant in any fight would be doing the same. Your spin on it in sentence 2 is speculation.

Wow TJ has common sense

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001

3. Loses to anyone else.

What about that random sith lord in PoD that Bane said was so weak that it wasn't even worth mentioning his name?

Originally posted by Advent
Semantics won't be addressed because the arguments are just silly. That being said, let's take excerpts from The Phantom Menace novelization itself, found in chapters 22 and 23:


By semantics do you mean what happened in the fight, that is very important.



That is a very strong quote and kudos for using it, but I wasn't claiming that Maul wasn't stronger. He showed that he was, But being the stronger(more powerful, better, w/e adjective have you) in a duel doesn't guarantee success unless you are so much stronger than the opponents that you cannot be touched. It takes a split second for a lesser opponent to kill a stronger opponent. Maul had those moments where he could have died (you call it scemantics?) that means he didn't curbstomp. Since this is a hand-to-hand fight, I beg to differ that there were several moments in the duel when he could have died, and THAT removes the word curbstomp. A curbstomp is a 10 second, 20 second fight. Sidious curbstomps 3 jedi masters before fighting windu. This wasn't a curbstomp. It was a fight in which maul was better.

These moments of possible death come at 1:30, and at 3:51 if maul is a split second slower. It also lasted 5 minutes. It hardly fit the definition of curbstomp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q&feature=related


This kinda actually stands as a contradiction to your first two quotes above. Saying they should have won the battle long ago doesn't really do anything to make this sound like a curbstomp. I'm not saying Maul didn't have the advantage remember.



IF that was the entire duel, I would agree with you. However, the solo duel between Maul and QGJ began when Obi-Wan fell.



As evidenced by the 2 video references above, and the unpredictability of melee combat, it was. Maul coming off the floor a split second later would have had him killed by Kenobi, while laying on the ground , without the kick, QGJ would have taken him out.

This duel wasn't as one-sided as you are trying to say.



Right, we agree about Bondara then. Being the best duelist means not nearly as much when you realize how important the force is in a duel between force weilders. Not to short-change Bondara, but it doesn't mean that Maul beat the best the order had to offer.

To counter that: I would give you the quote from ROTS novelization where Mace says to kenobi:

"In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him. Pg. 294"
Does this mean Obi-wan is the most dangerous of living jedi? hardly. Does this mean that Maul beating him is a greater feat than beating Yoda? no.




So you are saying in a land WITHOUT an environment that Anakin would kill Kenobi? That is kinda pointless isn't it, as every fight has an environment. It is kinda painting with a broad brush to say that location was absolutely everything to this fight, when they spent an inordinate amount of time fighting at arms length. Yes, Kenobi got the high-ground, and Anakin tried to leap over him at the end of the fight, but the only case where it would be possible for this to occur would be in a setting with absolutely no ledges or changes in terrain.



Where did Kenobi run in ROTS? I must have missed that.



My point, in all of this, is that Kenobi CHOSE to use that ground. He fought with the same limitations as Anakin in every instance that you named there.

second: I have a problem with the 2/5 minute thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

at the 1:34 mark, it cuts away from the fight scene between anakin and obi-wan. We have no idea how long that cut away is for. Any details from the novel that are absent from the screen, easily fit into that abscence, and are still canon.






novel: "Obi-Wan reached. ANakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "the flaw of power is arrogance."
"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion--"
"It's not compassion, Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."
He sighed. " It's regret for the man you were."

This scene actually fits very well into the cut-away from the 1:34 mark of ROTS. Remember, no contradiction makes novel still canon.


Well, yes... I agree with that. I said the reason Kenobi giving ground was a result of his hesitance to kill Anakin. It was also his way. That is supported by the novel. Given the opportunity, he was still willing to land the killing blow. That is obvious by the end of the duel.

Pg. 397 "In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash."

That, coupled with the quote from above provides that there was more hesitation on Kenobi's part than was present in his duel with Grievous, and certainly more hesitation than Maul had with either Bondara or QGJ.

Also evidenced by Pg. 403: Which, is when they are fighting on the conduit, 2:45-2:55 of the above clip. Not to say kenobi was holding back, but he it was at THAT point, not the 1:07 mark, as you said that he let his attachement go.

"Obi Wan still loved him...Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for atachment... He let it go."

2:45-2:55 actually, as I said above, BUT.... this also does not include the time from the cut-away, that had to be long enough to include the material from the novel that is not in the movie.

Anyway, its a novel quote that Kenobi hesitated earlier in the duel, both he and anakin acknowledge it. So there was definitly hesitation there. I rest my case there.



2:45-2:55, after the majority of the melee fighting is nearing completion actually.



This is interesting. If you want to use this quote, from pg. 397, you will have to acknowledge the circumstance I quoted earlier with Kenobi hesitating with the chance to kill anakin. They are both from the same place, Pg,397-398, and they both include details that didn't happen on screen. (Kenobi opening Anakin's hand and getting both sabers, and Anakin and Kenobi sending blaster bolts back and forth at each other, respectively.)

I don't think it indicates he couldn't stop him outright at all. I think it indicates that it was Kenobi's way to give ground, and the burn to ash quote i've given several times. Feel free to expound on the fact that Kenobi couldn't stop Anakin, just slow him down, but I don't think it is convincing enough at the moment.




He dictated where the fight went from the beginning giving ground means leading. If he had retreated in the opposite direction, they would have gone in the opposite direction. If he had retreated in circles, they would have fought in circles around the landing platform. By giving ground, he chose what ground they fought on.






This does seem contradicted by the movie, in which kenobi retreats through the door of that room, so i withdraw that one.

(2:10 in the clip above)

However, we are given this, which indicates Obi-Wan chose to go outside.

"Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it. It was a place, he decided, they should reach together."

Pg. 401







As did your quote about Kenobi using anything he could to slow Anakin down, since in the movie, there is no part of the fight where they parry blaster bolts back and forth at each other. However, It all fits nicely into the cut-away we see at the 1:34 mark of the duel.

This kinda actually stands as a contradiction to your first two quotes above. Saying they should have won the battle long ago doesn't really do anything to make this sound like a curbstomp.

No. I didn't read the rest, but no.

They would have beaten most people by now. Because they have not, Maul > Most people. Maul >>> Them (as evidenced by the final sentence).

EDIT

wut?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

No. I didn't read the rest, but no.

They would have beaten most people by now. Because they have not, Maul > Most people. Maul >>> Them (as evidenced by the final sentence).

Where does it say most people? The quote she gave said they should have won THIS battle by now.

I missed the MOST PEOPLE reference you gave above. Quote it please.

EDIT: I'm having quoting issues! gah.

I don't think that you can argue this: The quote says


See how that works?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think that you can argue this: The quote says


See how that works?

I stand corrected. (Lol, see how it works when I am wrong? Lol, i wish everyone would be as willing to admit it when their error is staring them in the face. It would make KMC a much more logical place.


However, because I was wrong on the most people quote doesn't tell me that Maul curbstomped Kenobi and Qui-GOnn simply because they would have beaten another opponent long ago.

What is a curb stomp to you Red? To me its sidious beating the 3 masters in 10 seconds, NOT a 5 minute duel. Was Maul superior? Sure. I never denied that. even stated it myself a couple of times. Did he wipe the floor with the Jedi without effort? i see no evidence of it.

I'm still trying to figure out how Qui Gon got curbstomped on Tatooine, and how Maul was only testing him.

Everyone with a little bit of common sense can see that Qui-Gon barely got out of there alive and was exhausted after just 15 seconds, while fighting a Maul who isn't even using his double-bladed lightsaber.

Sith lords are supposed to be all powerful, because there are only two of them active at any given time, which means they must be strong. Strong enough to beat a jedi. Strong enough to beat even Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm still trying to figure out how Qui Gon got curbstomped on Tatooine, and how Maul was only testing him.

Don't try because it never happen.

Maybe because the quote even said, "severely tested."

Sorry guys that's not a curb stomp. A curb stomp is what Dooku did to Obi wan and then Anakin in AOTC. A curb stomp is what Palpatine did to the 3 Jedi. We all saw the movies...I don't really care what the c-canon novel says. The movie shows them fighting and Maul pushing Qui Gon slowly back. That's NOT a curb stomp.

Furthermore, you're saying Maul tested Qui Gon because Qui Gon thought so? That's rich.

Well, as far as I remember, I never said curb stomped, and that might be a strong word for it, but there was absolutely no hope for QGJ to win that fight, as he barely escaped as it was.

You agreed with the statement though. And it was Qui Gon who felt he was severely tested. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Advent's assertion that Maul was just testing him.

When did I say, "Well, I agree that it was a curb stomp."

And I agree that being tested is different someone just testing another person. And when I said "maybe cause the quote..." that was a real "maybe," not a sarcastic "maybe."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sorry guys that's not a curb stomp. A curb stomp is what Dooku did to Obi wan and then Anakin in AOTC. A curb stomp is what Palpatine did to the 3 Jedi. We all saw the movies...I don't really care what the c-canon novel says. The movie shows them fighting and Maul pushing Qui Gon slowly back. That's NOT a curb stomp.

Furthermore, you're saying Maul tested Qui Gon because Qui Gon thought so? That's rich.

TkW8ydn3cPQ

At 0:13 you can see that Qui-Gon isn't 'slowly' giving ground. Unless that is your interpretation, then I wouldn't like to see someone quickly giving ground.

EDIT: I just noticed you said that the Obi + Anakin VS Dooku actually was a curbstomp, but they actually did a better job than Qui-Gon did.

lIWm1GSHJ2o&

I'm still searching for a curb stomp. He's getting pushed back, that's it.

I'd still say that Qui-Gon did a worse job than Obi-Wan or Anakin did. Qui-Gon wouldn't have last as long as the latter without being rescued, he was near death after a 15 seconds duel. This while Dooku actually looked out of breath after his curbstomping.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I'd still say that Qui-Gon did a worse job than Obi-Wan or Anakin did. Qui-Gon wouldn't have last as long as the latter without being rescued, he was near death after a 15 seconds duel. This while Dooku actually looked out of breath after his curbstomping.

Wow, Slash that is some Interpretation of the fight.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Wow, Slash that is some Interpretation of the fight.

Next time, say something useful like how and where you disagree with my interpretation or just stay quiet.

Dooku never looked out of breath. A curb stomp involves one participant getting his ass kicked. Qui Gon was getting pushed back. That's all.

TCQMyphxXPU

Right after he Force pushed Anakin around 4:42.

And Qui-Gon did get his ass kicked, Maul just didn't have the time to finish the job. But I'm not going to get into this "yes, no, YES, NO" dance, I neither have the time nor the patience to deal with this at the moment.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Next time, say something useful like how and where you disagree with my interpretation or just stay quiet.

Aren't we Irritated today.

The first meeting Qui Gon was caught off guard and taken by surprise seeing that there weren't suppose to be any Sith anymore. The fact that Maul could touch or disarm him under those circumstances proves that there was no stomping by Maul.

Then we have the second meeting in which Qui Gon was able to keep pushing Maul back until they were stop by the power generator. He never waited for Obi Wan or tried to re-group with him.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
TCQMyphxXPU

Right after he Force pushed Anakin around 4:42.

And Qui-Gon did get his ass kicked, Maul just didn't have the time to finish the job. But I'm not going to get into this "yes, no, YES, NO" dance, I neither have the time nor the patience to deal with this at the moment.

This is a retarded assumption. Don't make excuses for Maul. We are arguing the FIGHT, not what MIGHT have happened had it continued. During the fight, all Maul did was push him back. It's a simple concept, I don't know why you can't understand it.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Next time, say something useful like how and where you disagree with my interpretation or just stay quiet.






TkW8ydn3cPQ

"Anakin, drop!"

He was clearly taken off guard.


The fact that Qui-Gon was out of breath after twenty seconds worth of fighting speaks volumes.

You're in denial.


Damn... it isn't like we have canon sources indicating that a better interpretation was that Maul was leading the fight... Oh. Wait.

You are wrong.

2 bad

no one is saying that Maul wasn't better in TPM, we are discussing the word curbstomp Red. Did Maul CURBSTOMP them in TMP. MY opinion of curbstomp is a fight in which the weaker opponent(s) never have a chance. I.e. 3 Masters against Sidious.

Since there are 2 points in the fight. (posted earlier btw) where maul could have died, without first kicking QGJ, and the second time if he had been a split second slower, AND this fight lasted 5 minutes, Maul lost his lightsaber, this wasn't a curbstomp.

What is your interpretation of the word?

EDIT: actually... Beefy might be saying QGJ and TPM kenobi were better, so i take it back if it was him you were speaking to.

But I doubt it.

Just watched that clip above. It looked more like QGJ was just running away, avoiding a fight. Not so much that he got pushed back that quickly. He was running towards the ship, Maul leaps over him to block his escape, and he leaps up into the ship.

Someone with the novel, can you post those few moments of fighting action? If the novel says that QGJ was getting it handed to him, that is one thing, but since he was clearly running away and not trying to engage Maul, these few seconds are hardly a great indication of who had better ability.


My main argument though, rests with the second fight, and the sheer length of time it took, second longest fight in the mythos, with a cut-away scene that took, we have no idea how long.

I believe the fight on naboo is from QGJ's perspective right up until the end before the end where it switches to Kenobi's, am i wrong?

If i remember that much correctly, it does at one point say that QGJ took the fight to Maul, trying to end it quickly. Not that this matters, because Maul WAS better.

The second fight on naboo, simply was not a curbstomp. I'm yet to see that addressed here. People say Maul >>>>>>> than QGJ and Kenobi together, are focusing only on this first snippet in which QGJ is clearly trying to simply run away. The second fight is about the furthest thing from a curbstomp that you are going to get.

I'm confused. How is the canonicity of something in question if it's explicitly stated in a G-Canon novel and not contradicted in the movie?

Advent, I'm just throwing this out there: You do realize that, according to Stover, Lucas went through the novel line by line, edited it quite a bit and cut stuff out? You realize that if Lucas is performing a line edit and a 'between the scenes scene' is left in, it's a safe bet to say that's fitting not only nicely in with canon but Lucas's intention.

Originally posted by Eminence
I'm confused. How is the canonicity of something in question if it's explicitly stated in a G-Canon novel and not contradicted in the movie?

If it isn't shown in the movie, we have no idea what Lucas' intentions were. The novel even has parts of fights that directly contradict what is shown on screen. For example, during the Jedi duo vs. Dooku event:

"Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back-and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one-handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.

He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own-and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall. His lightsaber came loose from his slackening fingers and clattered across the tabletop to drop to the floor on the far side."

Therefore, just because the novel says that it happened, doesn't mean that George Lucas would agree with it. The fact that there isn't a contradiction does not necessarily make it true then.

I'm sorry, the novel is at LEAST C-canon if non contradictory and why are you completely ignoring Lucas line edited the thing scene by scene?

What you don't seem to understand is that no contradiction does not equal true. The novel is often flat-out wrong about how scenes in the movie are shown to happen. There's absolutely no reason to think that they would necessarily be right about scenes that aren't shown then. This is the case with almost every movie novel. The TPM novelization, for example, had tons of inconsistencies in the Maul vs. Jedi duo fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sorry, the novel is at LEAST C-canon if non contradictory and why are you completely ignoring Lucas line edited the thing scene by scene?

He edited the novel scene-by-scene but made inaccuracies to the very scenes he directed? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

A passage which is, as you said, contradicted entirely by what we see on-screen. This is not the case for the quote truejedi provided; the two aren't comparable.Advent
If it isn't shown in the movie, we have no idea what Lucas' intentions were.



Therefore, just because the novel says that it happened, doesn't mean that George Lucas would agree with it. The fact that there isn't a contradiction does not necessarily make it true then.Although I'm not sure the argument would have any merit either way, Stover has conveniently addressed this:That seems fairly conclusive.

Let me make the point clearly.

The passage I've provided is contradicted by the movie.

Therefore, the novel can be inaccurate when describing fights.

The quotes truejedi has provided are not shown on-screen.

Therefore, we can't assume that because it's written in the novel it's true. If the novel can be inaccurate when describing fights on-screen, why should we automatically trust descriptions that aren't on-screen?

The passage I've provided was just to make the larger argument hold water; it wasn't a comparison.

That said, I don't really give a damn what Stover says.

Originally posted by Advent
What you don't seem to understand is that no contradiction does not equal true. The novel is often flat-out wrong about how scenes in the movie are shown to happen. There's absolutely no reason to think that they would necessarily be right about scenes that aren't shown then. This is the case with almost every movie novel. The TPM novelization, for example, had tons of inconsistencies in the Maul vs. Jedi duo fight.

I'm afraid in this case, non contradictory scenes are indeed accurate. Mace meeting Yoda and deciding to overthrow Palpatine, Mace assigning Obi-wan to Grievous? Those are canonical as far as it goes.

You are mentioning INCONSISTENCIES, which is a different kettle of fish from non-contradictory scenes

Nevertheless, it places a non contradictory scene higher than you'll admit.

Originally posted by Advent
Let me make the point clearly.

The passage I've provided is contradicted by the movie.

Therefore, the novel can be inaccurate when describing fights.

The quotes truejedi has provided are not shown on screen.

Therefore, we can't assume that because it's written in the novel it's true. If the novel can be inaccurate when describing fights on-screen, why should we automatically trust descriptions that aren't on-screen?

The passage I've provided was just to point out the larger point; it wasn't a comparison.

That said, I don't really give a damn what Stover says.
Is this your MO lately? "I'll believe what I want, screw all evidence to the contrary."
And given Stover is the AUTHOR of the book reporting that Lucas wanted that scene to be in there, it seems pretty clear what he 'intended.' Get over it.

Actually... No. Think of it like a computer program. A=movie, B=novel.

Everything from A is true. Everything from B is true IF there is not a direct contradiction from A. This is true of everything in the novel that isn't shown on-screen. If the fight was continuous, and we saw all of it, the book would be wrong, but that gap means the novel is still canon.

I'm not defining canon, I'm quoting it. You are defining canon when you discount the novel without a direct portion from the movie that contradicts it. Pg. 397-398 stand.




Yes it does.



You just discounted the entire EU Advent. That is just silly.



The novel says it is his way. Are you seriously trying to say that your opinion of Obi-Wan's fighting style > novel? For that matter, he backed away from Grievous until his defenses were overloaded. He chased him down for the same reason he went to Mustafar. To get in a fight. Clearly obi-wan putting himself in a position to fight has nothing to do with the fight itself.

Obi-Wan was fighting in Tandem with Anakin on the Invinsible hand. It wasn't kenobi dueling.




It is given as another reason why Kenobi gave ground Advent. He was giving ground, not being forced back. We may have to just agree to disagree on this one, simply because we both have read the same sources and interpret it differently.

It'll be a few minutes before i get the other half of your post answered, but i'm not skipping it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Is this your MO lately? "I'll believe what I want, screw all evidence to the contrary."
And given Stover is the AUTHOR of the book reporting that Lucas wanted that scene to be in there, it seems pretty clear what he 'intended.' Get over it.

It appears to be your modus operandi because you are blatantly ignoring common sense and rationality on the basis that "cuz Stover say-so". You haven't addressed the logic at all.

Since Lucas reviewed the novel line-by-line, I guess he left those inconsistencies of his own movie in there. That means that things that aren't shown on-screen are also open to same fallibility. We don't know what Lucas would have shown on-screen, so we can't automatically assume that it would be consistent. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if Lucas reviewed it or not, because he also reviewed and left in materials that are blatant contradictions of his own work. My point stands.

Originally posted by Advent
Begging the question, logical fallacy.

The evidence you're using to support that is not shown in the movie. Anakin didn't acknowledge a damned thing and Obi-Wan didn't show an ounce of compassion. When he had the chance to kill Anakin, he tried to capitalize on it. That is shown in the movie and trumps your assumptions.


It happened in the novel, uncontradicted by the Movie, its canon.
Considering its fiction, I have no problem with you deciding you don't want to believe it, but please don't try to pass it off as fact.



He lets go of attachement on the conduit. pg. 403. Its interesting you are pushing a quote from the same scene you are claiming never happened.




This is just a double-standard. If you can claim something never happened in a scene, how can you claim the thoughts in that scene were thought? This doesn't make a lick of sense.



Are you really arguing a negative? Doesn't meant that he wasn't being pushed back? If that's what you want to believe, fine, but the novel supports that it was Kenobi's choice. Of course I can't prove that Kenobi WASN'T being pushed back. That is teh beauty of a negative.
I can however prove that Kenobi was giving ground because it was his way, A much stronger argument than you saying I can't prove something DIDN'T happen.



This is perfect with me. This is my personal MO on these forums.
I just enjoy discussing it.




But your first statement does not exist in the novel. You are using your interpretation of the second statment(which does exist) To create this:


You would need to prove sentence 1 above in order for me to need to justify anything.




I have no problem admitting error when I see it. I could have just dropped that part of the argument when I saw I was wrong, and tried to act like it didn't happen. I don't roll that way.



This is your interpretation meeting mine again. So i won't repeat myself on it again.




Sorry, I disagree with your logic. Novel is canon until actually contradicted by what we see, not just when we don't see it happen.

Originally posted by Advent
It appears to be your modus operandi because you are blatantly ignoring common sense and rationality on the basis that "cuz Stover say-so". You haven't addressed the logic at all.
Your argument: You can't prove this is what Lucas intended
Faunus posts an Exact quote] from the author saying what's in the novel is what Lucas intended to be in. If there was a fight scene inconsistency, then that's one. This is NOT contradictory, was line edited by the highest source and left in.

Scenes that directly contradict aren't canon. Character thoughts and scenes that do NOT conflict? Leland Chee says those are fine

Lucas read it, edited it and left it in. He's fine with it, it contradicts nothing. Ergo, it's usable and canonical

You have suddenly bizarre standards on what is and isn't valid.

I'll address the rest of your argument later, True Jedi (it's FRIDAY!), but let me just respond to that last post. I should also say that I'm fine with dropping the arguments that are based on interpretation (which appears to be pretty much the majority).

Originally posted by truejedi
It happened in the novel, uncontradicted by the Movie, its canon.
Considering its fiction, I have no problem with you deciding you don't want to believe it, but please don't try to pass it off as fact.

Originally posted by Advent
Let me make the point clearly.

The passage I've provided is contradicted by the movie.

Therefore, the novel can be inaccurate when describing fights.

The quotes truejedi has provided are not shown on-screen.

Therefore, we can't assume that because it's written in the novel it's true. If the novel can be inaccurate when describing fights on-screen, why should we automatically trust descriptions that aren't on-screen?

The passage I've provided was just to make the larger argument hold water; it wasn't a comparison.



If he let go of his attachment on the conduit, then why was he trying to kill Anakin before then? QED.



Obi-Wan's thoughts on the his opponent's force extend through the entire fight. It doesn't matter if the scene is contradicted; it was his overall impression, which goes much further than that single passage.



LMAO! Please don't tell me you succumb to the "you can't prove a negative" logic. I hope you realize that statement in itself is a negative.

I'm arguing that Obi-Wan was being pushed back and as such, was giving ground. How is your argument stronger? Your argument is that he was giving ground intentionally. That assumes that he could have matched or defeated Anakin head on. If that's the case, why resort to a much more dangerous and difficult strategy like his lava skating, tight rope walking, platform jumping tactics?




It was an example that demonstrates how just "giving ground" does not automatically translate into "leading".

You're suggestion that "giving ground" automatically translates into "leading" is therefore false. In that respect, your evidence does not justify your conclusion.



Like I said, I'm glad to hear it.



See above posts.

@ Lightsnake:

You're hopeless.

The novelization is a C-canon source. As Faunus has already addressed, the passage you provided -- the one where Dooku is throwing tables and chairs and shit -- is contradicted by what we see on screen. There are no breaks or interruptions during the duel; no way to write it off. Ergo that particular passage was removed from the final cut. But when there are no contradictions provided by subsequent or higher canon, what rationale do you have for cherrypicking what is and what is not canon?

The audience simply can't pick and choose what stays and what goes.





We don't really give a damn that you don't give a damn what Stover says. It's valid. And it stays.

Originally posted by Advent

@ Lightsnake:

You're hopeless.
Not a good rebuttal. I'm sorry, this is so far from your usual standard it isn't even amusing. Usually you have a habit of admitting when you're wrong and being able to pretty evenly analyze and use quotes. Now? Somehow, me pointing out that not only did Lucas leave the line in, but Leland Chee commented that things in the novels don't contradict are pretty much considered valid and the scene, in an official novelization contradicts NOTHING...and I'm the one who's hopeless? Come on. Grab the reins, Advent

The passage I've provided was largely irrelevant; it was only used to show that the novel contradicts on-screen scenes (George Lucas' own movie) when it comes down to describing how fights play out. If the novelization can be wrong about on-screen portions of fights, then why should we automatically believe they are right about off-screen portions of fights?

Because one is DIRECTLY contradictory to the movie. The other is not. According to Chee at his Holocron thread at SW.com, what doesn't contradict-IE: off screen scenes, character thoughts, narration, etc. is considered valid.

There is no reason not to consider Palpatine chatting with Dooku on board the Invisible Hand prior to the battle canon, no reason not to consider the narration commenting on Grievous's victories to be invalid....This isn't different. It contradicts nothing, Lucas approved it.

Advent
The passage I've provided was largely irrelevant; it was only used to show that the novel contradicts on-screen scenes (George Lucas' own movie) when it comes down to describing how fights play out. If the novelization can be wrong about on-screen portions of fights, then why should we automatically believe they are right about off-screen portions of fights?



Because... they're canon... and you're not?

Advent
The passage I've provided was largely irrelevant; it was only used to show that the novel contradicts on-screen scenes (George Lucas' own movie) when it comes down to describing how fights play out. If the novelization can be wrong about on-screen portions of fights, then why should we automatically believe they are right about off-screen portions of fights? Because... that's... canon... policy?



Edit: Damn you Gideon.

Yes, the line I've provided about Dooku vs. Jedi is directly contradicted by the movie because it's not shown. These scenes in the novel that True Jedi posted weren't shown either. Therefore, we cannot conclude that Lucas would be putting them in his movie. He left in inconsistencies about the same damn scenes he directed; it's reasonable to assume then that he could have left in inconsistencies about what isn't shown. Since it's inconclusive, it would be hasty and faulty to use them as viable evidence.

You are assuming that because Lucas approved it, it's true. Obviously that isn't the case since passages in the novel aren't true according to the movie.

By that logic any character's thought process contradicts the movie as it's 'not shown,' despite Chee having commented on how this policy WORKS.
The scene is canon, end story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
By that logic any character's thought process contradicts the movie as it's 'not shown,' despite Chee having commented on how this policy WORKS.
The scene is canon, end story.

Thought processes aren't physical actions; the scenes True Jedi is talking about are. So you aren't going "by that logic" as much as making a faulty comparison.

Advent
You are assuming that because Lucas approved it, it's true.

No one's disputing that Lucas is notorious for changing his mind (and his story!) at every opportunity. But until you have something concrete that gives a valid reason to question a specific scene or event, then it remains canon.

Originally posted by Advent
Thought processes aren't physical actions; the scenes True Jedi is talking about are. So you aren't going "by that logic" as much as making a faulty comparison.
By this logic, the info we've gotten on Anakin killing Cin Drallig isn't canon as we never see it onscreen.

Advent
Yes, the line I've provided about Dooku vs. Jedi is directly contradicted by the movie because it's not shown.It's directly contradicted by the movie because it doesn't happen in the movie and there is unarguably no room for it to have happened in whatever cutaways and gaps are present in the film scenes. This is not the case with the line TJ provided.Unlike the above example, in this case the movie does not in any way lead us to suspect that the events described could not have happened. The two scenarios are not related in the way you'd like them to be, so don't try to point out a relationship that doesn't exist.

hey um this is kinda long, and I don't have time to read it all since I have a shitload of chinese hw to do all due at like 8am 2mrw and its like almost 12 am for me.. so yeah


anyways...

I would put Obi-wan on par with lower tier council members, slightly lower than windu, lower/on par with grevious, because of his style. and luck I suppose.

He is below ROTS Anakin in skill, and defeated Maul through sheer luck.

But I think he was above dooku in swordsmanship, not overall by ROTS. In the novelization, dooku was suprised by the change in tactics, and suddenly found himself fighting for his life.

Although one might say dooku pwned Obiwan in the ROTS fight also, that was using the force... I guess dooku is above Obi-wan then.

and He surpassed Quigon by ROTS. But he isn't that great...

Mostly because of his lack in force prowess imo.

anyways i gotta run. see u guys later.

Can I please ask for reasonable discussion? Rather than Lightsnake Logic - "it's canon, end of story" and ad hominem attacks. A reasonable discussion at least should admit that you acknowledge the opposition's argument and think about where they are coming from. Gideon's (one) post is a perfect example of that. I'm willing to say that perhaps you're right, and it is canon, but I believe that conclusion is based on inconclusive evidence.



While Lucas has approved the novel and allegedly reviewed it line by line, he still left in direct contradictions to his own movie. This is the basis for questioning its validity: fight scenes themselves are shown to directly contradict the movie, why is it unreasonable to extend the possibility to fight scenes that aren't shown?

To that extent, it's inconclusive because we have no idea how Lucas would portray those events since we're not actually seeing them in the movie. Notice that I used the word inconclusive. I'm not saying that they would or wouldn't be accurate if Lucas decided to shoot those scenes. I am saying that we just can't make the call either way because he hasn't.



I never denied the possibility that they could have occured, but we're not left with any reason to conclude that they did.

Originally posted by Advent
...why is it unreasonable to extend the possibility to fight scenes that aren't shown?

This should read: '...why is it unreasonable to extend the possibility of being wrong to fight scenes that aren't shown?'.

because they are between scenes. Non contradictory. Same standard as any EU

Originally posted by Advent
Can I please ask for reasonable discussion? Rather than Lightsnake Logic - "it's canon, end of story" and ad hominem attacks. A reasonable discussion at least should admit that you acknowledge the opposition's argument and think about where they are coming from. Gideon's (one) post is a perfect example of that. I'm willing to say that perhaps you're right, and it is canon, but I believe that conclusion is based on inconclusive evidence.



I've explained to you HOW AND WHY it is canon. Point out one use of ad hominem, Advent, because I'm not entirely convinced you know what that means.


No. Based on the guy behind the Holocron, it is a basis to reject that one scene and instance. Nothing more

Except for the fact that the author was wrong about fight scenes even shown in the movie? That's my biggest problem here. If he was wrong then, why is he absolutely right here about scenes that aren't even so much as featured? I'm guessing that you responded to that single snippet and didn't even read the post it originated from.

Ah so we're in agreement then. There was no curb stomp on Tatooine, and there's no proof that Maul was just "testing" Qui Gon. Gotcha.

YOU YOURSELF have addressed this in the past. The author wasn't 'wrong,' the movie made later merely rendered those scenes N-Canon. As Leland Chee, the man who handles canon has said, noncontradictory material is and has always been considered C-G canon.

Btw, Advent, 'ad hominem?' It's not 'insult,' it'd be if I dismissed your argument off hand because of something of you personally. If I said "that's wrong and you're a fool," that is one thing. If I say "That's wrong because you're a fool" that's ad hominem.

You aren't going on my ignore, Dr. No, but you are going to be ignored. Do you get that?

@Lightsnake: Agreed on the 'ad hominem'. I just wrote that hastily based on that "is this your MO lately" comment.

(I love that emote)

Advent, I'm fairly certain that you're not following: The author is, in this case, "wrong" simply because Lucas decided to change certain facets of the movie during shooting. There is a blatant contradiction shown and thus the movie takes precedence. But if there is no contradiction and room can be made for the events, dialogue, scenes, and musings that are displayed in the novelization, then it is canon.

That's simply how it works. Novelizations are C-canon. Unless you can provide a direct reason for why a specific event should not be considered part of the movie, then it stands.

Originally posted by Advent
You aren't going on my ignore, Dr. No, but you are going to be ignored. Do you get that?

@Lightsnake: Agreed on the 'ad hominem'. I just wrote that hastily based on that "is this your MO lately" comment.

You can put me on ignore all you want Advent. I've proven my case, you haven't proven yours. Making shit up doesn't help your argument either.

I can't help but repeat myself: the author was wrong about fight scenes that are shown in the movie, why should he be right about portions that aren't? There doesn't have to be a contradiction to make it false. If it isn't shown on screen, then we have no idea if it would contradict what would be shown on screen. Meaning it's inconclusive.

@ That very, very, very annoying sound in my head that comes up when reading the post above me: Shuddap.

Advent
I can't help but repeat myself: the author was wrong about fight scenes that are shown in the movie, why should he be right about portions that aren't?

Because the author was "wrong" only when he was contradicted by a subsequent source.

Otherwise, the novelization remains C-canon, which you'll note is higher on the list than A-canon, which might as well be N-canon.

In other words, G-canon > C-canon > N-canon > you. Let's not be difficult here.



This is a terrible echo of your first attempt to cherrypick. Or, in otherwords, Hindenburg, the Sequel.



The novelization is C-canon, Advent, and it was personally line edited by George Lucas. Until such a time that you can provide factual basis for the events, statements, and descriptions provided by the novelization to be false, it remains canon.

btw.. whats C-G cannon? I'm confused...

Originally posted by Gideon
Because the author was "wrong" only when he was contradicted by a subsequent source.

Otherwise, the novelization remains C-canon, which you'll note is higher on the list than A-canon, which might as well be N-canon.

In other words, G-canon > C-canon > N-canon > you. Let's not be difficult here.



This is a terrible echo of your first attempt to cherrypick. Or, in otherwords, Hindenburg, the Sequel.



The novelization is C-canon, Advent, and it was personally line edited by George Lucas. Until such a time that you can provide factual basis for the events, statements, and descriptions provided by the novelization to be false, it remains canon. Damn, did you all wake up on the wrong side of the bunk beds recently? Usually are tag-teaming (I love low-rent, drunk, sexual puns at 1 in the morning) other people rather than going at each other's throats.

Advent knows that she's a fine piece of ass and that I love her.

But KMC is a man's world and a responsible man has to put his hoe back in line!

...



plz dont hert me

LOL... hoe back in line.... wow J, that was pretty ballsy. I'm impressed and yet somehow scared due to guilt by association.

To be clear Advent, I'd crawl through broken glass just wipe your soiled ass should you so command.... ... but still, Gideon is acting alone on this one, lol.

Coward.

Hey.. incur the wrath of Advent? No thanks. But uh... yea buddy... i got your back... for sure.... tell her to toe the line, and to do it on the double.

Okay, I just re-watched the scene and actually, it is canon.

pSwy412nttI

The reason being I believe is not solely because it isn't contradicted by anything, however. I should point out that, because I still don't agree with "if it isn't contradicted, it's true". It's canon because after the cut away (1:07), which occurs immediately after Anakin and Obi-Wan enter the room from the hallway. When it returns, we see Anakin putting (not already having it applied) Obi-Wan in a choke hold and does not have his lightsaber in hand. Obi-Wan loses his lightsaber after Anakin dropkicks him (1:23), but at 1:32 we can see Anakin pulls his lightsaber to him. Obviously when he put Kenobi in a choke hold, he wouldn't stash his saber away, so it must not have been in his possession. The novel then gives us the reason as to why Anakin doesn't have his blade there.

However, to True Jedi, this just shows that Obi-Wan wasn't trying to kill him until after 1:07 in the duel. Afterward, he is. As well, it still doesn't indicate that he could take Anakin head-on. Here's what it says:

"A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice-But it was a very good trick.

It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous . . .

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.

Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "The flaw of power is arrogance."

"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion-"

"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."

He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."

Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad."

Alright, to analysis this information I dismissed: this clearly shows that Obi-Wan knew he couldn't stop Anakin head-on. He has to resort to a "trick" (fighting dirty) and forces Anakin's mechanical hand to drop his saber.

Notice that when Anakin says Obi-Wan is hesitating this is because he was talking rather than fighting. There was still a distance between them apparently. In other words, it was only a chance that he had to kill Anakin. It wasn't an opportunity that Anakin couldn't fight back against. This is obvious since Anakin does fight back and puts him in a choke hold, neutralizing that chance. There's nothing to indicate that had Kenobi immediately tried to do something, Anakin wouldn't have done the exact same thing, IMO.

Nvm this post.

^ That would be my hoe getting back in line.

No, it would be Advent admitting when she's wrong by providing convincing reasoning to herself and others.

Advent
No, it would be Advent admitting when she's wrong by providing convincing reasoning to herself and others.

Can't we just, y'know, pretend?

Originally posted by Gideon
Advent knows that she's a fine piece of ass and that I love her.

But KMC is a man's world and a responsible man has to put his hoe back in line!

...



plz dont hert me


LOL I just can't imagine whats going to happen in the next... 6 min and 40 sec. assuming shes still online.

Alright. As long as we're in this pretend world, can you admit that you have a sexual attraction to Hayden Christensen?

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3446/shirtlessani.jpg

I don't think we need to pretend when saying that this screen shot gives everyone that thrilling feeling up their leg.

Originally posted by Gideon
^ That would be my hoe getting back in line.
Ummm... Photo evidence please.

Possibly the same reason it's OB1's saber at first and then it's Anakin's when the shot switches...shitty editing perhaps.

WTF.

Your vagina is located on your leg?

Originally posted by Gideon
WTF.

Your vagina is located on your leg? After i got done with it, it was.

lol u just typed up an entire like idk 500 words? of stuff and just completely disregarded it.


btw ur talking about Gideon right? cuz u kno like i'm not gay...


edit: ok u guys whats with the and

and.. I didn't kno Gideon liked christensen that way.

Darth Subjekt
After i got done with it, it was.

You gave her vagina necrosis?

kotorfan
btw ur talking about Gideon right? cuz u kno like i'm not gay...


edit: ok u guys whats with the and

and.. I didn't kno Gideon liked christensen that way.



Who's gay? I aint gay! Bein gay is for queers!

Is your phallus located on your leg when you get a hard-on? WTF.

um yeah I'll be leaving now i think.. before something bad happens.


btw any tips on what to write? i'm supposed to write a letter to someone about eating in a restaurant.

so far.. I have

Dear 張學友

上周我去了唐人街。

yeah. thats about it...

Originally posted by kotorfan
btw any tips on what to write? i'm supposed to write a letter to someone about eating in a restaurant.

so far.. I have

Dear 張學友

上周我去了唐人街。

yeah. thats about it...

LOL.

Originally posted by Gideon
You gave her vagina necrosis?

No, that's just how I roll. You'll understand once you hit puberty.
Originally posted by Gideon


Who's gay? I aint gay! Bein gay is for queers! ... you said queers...

Advent
Is your phallus located on your leg when you get a hard-on? WTF.

All the way down to my ankle.



But unless your vagina has an extension cord, I don't get it.

Originally posted by Advent
Is your phallus located on your leg when you get a hard-on? WTF. GOD... there's just something about a woman who can and will say "hard-on."

Originally posted by Gideon
All the way down to my ankle.



But unless your vagina has an extension cord, I don't get it.

SItting indian style, maybe, Gideon.

lol



Hey I'm serious.. I have 12 essays/letters to write in like 4 hrs.

and yeah that really is all I have.

Dear Jacky Cheung


Last week I went out with a friend to chinatown and got stuff to eat.


and I can't use colloquial canto words either.

which means I have to think in mandarin. lol

I don't get what you don't get...a thrilling feeling up the leg . Unless you are saying that your phallus is your leg, I'm not sure why you're confused. Admittedly, I stole that phrase from a guy named Chris Matthews...

Darth Subjekt
GOD... there's just something about a woman who can and will say "hard-on."

She typed it.

131

Originally posted by Advent
Unless you are saying that your phallus is your leg,

Might as well be.

131

No midget jokes plz.

Originally posted by Gideon
She typed it.

131



touche

Kotorfan, if you're writing a letter is it...a letter of commendation, a letter expressing your distaste for their food, a letter stating your dissatisfaction with the management, a letter to inform the establishment that you had cockroaches in your meal so you called the feds, or a letter to ask if you can deep fry the food there (if that's the case, you'll probably need a helluva' lot more than that)?

ok i'm writing a letter to "my chinese friend describing the situation when my classmate and I had a meal at a chinese restaurant. don't forget to use the following words:
湯　點菜　飯　盤　碗　肉　素　上菜　


the words are pretty easy, its like I order a PLATE of stuff and a BOWL of SOUP and ate RICE. thats like half the words already. It doesn't have to be too long, just a simple letter. and I have a mental block. lol


ok now its actually readable. be4 it was so small..

Originally posted by Gideon
Might as well be.

131

No midget jokes plz.

Aren't you paraplegic?

Originally posted by Advent
Alright. As long as we're in this pretend world, can you admit that you have a sexual attraction to Hayden Christensen?

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3446/shirtlessani.jpg

I don't think we need to pretend when saying that this screen shot gives everyone that thrilling feeling up their leg. Meh i got a better body than that.

I'll get to the rest later Advent, but the cut-away I was talking about is at 1:33.

Advent
Alright. As long as we're in this pretend world, can you admit that you have a sexual attraction to Hayden Christensen?

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3446/shirtlessani.jpg

I don't think we need to pretend when saying that this screen shot gives everyone that thrilling feeling up their leg. Youcan'tevenseehisabsinthispictureNo.

You sure its his abs you're worried about seeing, lol j/k

Originally posted by truejedi
I'll get to the rest later Advent, but the cut-away I was talking about is at 1:33.

The problem is, Obi-Wan tries to cleave Anakin down the middle at 1:33, meaning he clearly didn't hold any regard for his life then or at any point after. The scene where Kenobi is hesitating to fight (not to score a killing a blow) happens immediately before 1:08 following the novel's timeline, but at 1:08 he decides to 'let go', the result of which can be seen in the previous sentence to this one.