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Yoda...

im going to go with yoda...

i feel hes a much better lightsaber and force combatant. the location favors them both equally well since they both use styles that require space.

*shrug*

as far as exar kuns force feats go his most impressive to my knowledge is his senate chamber freezing. i dont like to consider it in fights because we dont know if he prepared the technique prior to casting it or if he requires intense concentration to use it. he wont have the luxery of either in this fight im assuming.

it just occured to me that the woman in your signature is holding a grenade with the pin pulled... what is the symbolic context for that picture?

Kun with amulets?

Originally posted by truejedi
Kun with amulets?

forgot about the amulets.

Yes, Kun's got the amulets; he's not fighting naked. Unless mentioned otherwise (and I usually don't restrict anything), my threads assume that the characters have all the equipment they regularly are armed with for personal combat.

Originally posted by ares834
Yoda...

GTFO.

well, obviously not naked, but am i wrong to think that Kun also had a lightsaber WITH the amulets? I don't do comics myself, so my knowledge of Kun is limited.

he does.

he cant use both the amulet with the lightsaber at the same time however as the 'saber staff requires both hands. that can be his downfall. i dont know if kun can track someone moving as fast as yoda and keep him at range. if yoda somehow manages to close the distance kun would have to drop the amulet and take out his lightsaber before yoda could get a strike in...

How far apart are they at the start of the match?

Kun had the gauntlet equipped at all times after he gains it during Dark Lords of the Sith.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
if yoda somehow manages to close the distance kun would have to drop the amulet and take out his lightsaber before yoda could get a strike in...
Exar Kun's amulets are strapped to his hands.

Edit: Ninjad

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
he cant use both the amulet with the lightsaber at the same time however as the 'saber staff requires both hands.

That's entirely inaccurate, at least in Kun's case. His double-bladed lightsaber had a hilt that was the same size as a normal saber's. Against Vodo, he's shown wielding it with only one hand.

hmm... does he ever use the amulet against another very powerful force user? or is it quoted as being unblockable? Just wondering if we know for certain Yoda would even need to dodge.

Getting a feel for Kun outside of Jedi Academy, which is the only series i know him from.

No, because there wasn't anybody dangerous enough to use it against.

Originally posted by Advent
That's entirely inaccurate, at least in Kun's case. His double-bladed lightsaber had a hilt that was the same size as a normal saber's. Against Vodo, he's shown wielding it with only one hand.

which i always found to be completely retarded. he always struck me as kind of a dumbass because of that... how are you supposed to use a double bladed lightsaber with one hand?



ah; i havent read that particular comic in a long time. he takes the healthy majority then imo.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
which i always found to be completely retarded. he always struck me as kind of a dumbass because of that... how are you supposed to use a double bladed lightsaber with one hand?



Well because DBL sabers are long so they require two hands but kuns DBL was like a standard lightsaber just that it had two blades coming out.

So how is he suppose to use two hands without getting one of his hands burned?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
No, because there wasn't anybody dangerous enough to use it against.

so we certainly can't consider them an automatic win if he does manage to aim them at yoda correctly can we?

In that case, I'm going to go Yoda. The "most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" fought the "most powerful Sith Lord in history" to a standstill. Said Sith Lord even tried to run from Yoda at the beginning of their duel.

Not knowing enough about Kun to offer reasons why he would lose, I merely stand on what is known of Yoda until someone can dissuade me with feats or quotes.

i mean wtf srsly. does he spin it like a baton and shit?

also how can he block strikes with it? if hes holding it in the middle that means a strike to one side would transfer all of the kinetic energy to the least supported part of the weapon. kun wouldnt even have the strength to guard any swings made by someone with above average strength...

i change my mind about vader vs. exar kun. vader would destroy exar kun in a lightsaber duel.

but on a serious note, has there ever been a limit to the size of his amulet beams? yoda has dodged missiles and shite. it stands to reason he could dodge a beam. especially if hes moving fast enough to stay ahead of exar's traking arm.

well not really as the amulets are exars only way to win... >.>

<.<

Could yoda disarm him from his amulets? This is not my argument though, that was what LS and maybe gideon rambling that in a previous thread.

hahaha.

and thats why absolute quotes are pointless.

Dark empire souce book.

Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned

The complete visual dictionary regarding exar kun:
Exar Kun , Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith

Originally posted by Advent
Dark Empire was created in 1991. At that point, Kun wasn't even an idea on the drawing board; certainly not an established character in the mythology. Kun's first appearance is in 1994 in Dark Lords of the Sith.

Hell, even the Dark Empire Sourcebook was published an entire year before DLotS.



Originally posted by Advent
That doesn't contradict it in any way, shape or form. Exar Kun wasn't as powerful as a spirit as he was when he consisted of flesh and blood. For example, by the New Jedi Order's time, Kun was a 4,000 year old half-mad ghost. Since he's shown to be both alive and dead, it would only make sense if he was "once" the most powerful since he's not in death.

If you look at what we know about Palpatine and decide that he's more powerful than any Sith Lord ever, that's fine with me. It's your opinion.

If you look at what we know about Exar Kun and decide that he's more powerful than any Sith Lord ever, that's fine with me. It's your opinion.

If you dictate that opinion about Palpatine as absolute, that's not fine with me, because your opinion isn't more valid than the next.

If you dictate that opinion about Exar Kun as absolute, that's not fine with me, because your opinion isn't more valid than next.

The truth is, if we do disregard "ever" quotes, then "ever" is a matter of your personal interpretation of the characters (which is fine by me). Since nobody disputes the fact that both Palpatine and Exar Kun are among the most powerful Sith, the absence of quotes leaves it to opinion.

Now now advent i cannot argue against that because doing so would be like putting me into the ring with Mike Tyson.

The real reason is your intellect is far superior to mine *kneels before his superior*.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Can it be argued that yoda could move fast enough to dodge the blasts?

It can be argued, yes. Has it been argued? No.

Kun was shown firing the blasts with no indication that they weren't being fired rapidly a la DBZ. And Yoda would also have to avoid the radius of the impact the beams make as they cause massive explosions that cover a large area.

It is not enough to say that Yoda can move really fast, therefore he can dodge really fast amulet beams fired by a really fast Force user. While it may or may not be true, it hasn't been justified.

I think it really depends on how large the blasts are the initial time kun fires it, chances are that yoda may be able to dodge them assuming exar kun isn't extremely pissed off yet because i assume the damage and radius of the blasts increase as his anger swells up.

Its plausible that he can dodge them but not 100% justified as you said.

Advent.... Please show me what advantage Kun has over Palpatine. I'll be waiting. I know you aren't suggesting that Kun has more knowledge of the force or the dark side, or is even close in that arena. I also know that you couldn't possibly claim that Kun's command of the dark side surpasses or even equals Palpatine's.

Read Gideon's essay. There's no real evidence that suggests Kun is even on par with Palpatine. The feats simply don't compare.

Originally posted by Advent
The author of the series and source book wrote them at a time when Kun didn't even exist. That means we know Exar Kun definitively wasn't considered when that statement was made (ergo invalid). The quote in the Official Fact File, however, was stated after the establishment of Exar Kun as a character and took into consideration Sith Lords like Palpatine. Hence the DE source book quote being nugatory when compared to the later source.
Wonderful. And we know that KJA, the creator of Kun, has stated that Kun was a tier below Palpatine, as per his email to lightsnake.




Then what respect is he possibly greater than him in?




What aspects?


Except for the fact that Kun's only access to knowledge was Sadow's teachings, something that apparently Nadd mastered. Palpatine's access to sith teachings was virtually limitless. Palpatine also spent a lifetime studying this knowledge whereas Kun spent 6 months with less knowledge. It would be rather foolish to follow this line of thought.


Wonderful. This means what exactly? That with a force assisting amulet, Kun would put up a better fight? Sure

Great. Unfortunately this doesn't mean much because no force users were involved, and because C'Baoth did something similar with his crew. Palpatine clouded the light side and the minds of 10,000 jedi. That's a superior feat.



Here we go with the battlemaster argument. Nothing suggests that Vodo was amazing. "BUT HE MADE HIS STICK HARDER THAN A SABER!!" Great, so?



Yay..Kun knows sith magic...



I've addressed this before. Nothing indicates that Odan Urr had a vast knowledge of the force in regards to techniques. Furthermore, nothing indicates that he was powerful at ALL. So while you call this a great feat, I call it somewhat impressive but ultimately irrelevant.


At a time where Luke was yet to gather force knowledge due to Palpatine's purging. So?



While Sidious had knowledge beyond anything Kun had.


Since you like to "reach", JvS confirms that Kun didn't invent the double blade.


Stronger? what does this even mean? Artifacts? Do you really want to judge who had more artifacts, because you'd lose that argument. The same goes with sith arcana and saber abilities. Palpatine was out of practice for 13 years, yet he took it to 4 jedi including Mace, who had to use Vaapad to subdue him. I'd take that over stalemating Ulic and beating Vodo "look at me I'm a battlemaster with my pointy stick" anyday.

I would argue that sidious saber skills are above that of kun.

But i am not going to give the details and explanations now, its bad enough shitting in your pants when trying to fart due to gastric flu.

I think Advent has lost her mind.

Originally posted by Advent
Dr. McBeefington...what, yesterday?









Don't expect me to take any of your posts seriously. You don't bring anything to the table, and it's getting old. You've been doing this for years and the value of your pseudo-logic remains zilch.

I've destroyed your logic Advent. Get over it. I'm not the only one who thinks you've fallen off your high horse of intelligence, and now we have someone that either makes shit up, posts retarded arguments, or just bitches the whole time.

Please show me where I said quotes are end all be all. If I recall correctly, the ONLY position I've ever taken was one where if the feats and information support the quotes, then it's 100% valid.


Do us all a favor and stop posting here. I think we've had a good laugh about "Qui Gon getting curbstomped on Tatooine because it was a test." You're basically going on ignore for incessant stupidity and ignorance.

They both have clear cut quotes it seems. So now we must go by feats and raw power, and Palpatine has him BEAT.

That was my point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They both have clear cut quotes it seems. So now we must go by feats and raw power, and Palpatine has him BEAT.

Except for the fact that Palpatine has no quote in his favor.

Palpatine has MANY quotes in his favor. Have you ignored the last 3 years of KMC?

Originally posted by Advent
Except for the fact that Palpatine has no quote in his favor. You just posted one yourself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You just posted one yourself.

I didn't post the full excerpt; read the second quote that's in my post above.

Yes, I'll do that in a bit. Keep in mind that the rest of the quotes are supported by Palpatine's feats. You have 1 quote for Kun unsupported by feats. We also have KJA's email to LS that took hours to find.

Originally posted by Advent
I didn't post the full excerpt; read the second quote that's in my post above. Well excuse me....

First of all, you can't wave around quotes if you haven't produced them. As usual, you're making claims without proof. It's your opinion that Kun's showing don't support him being the most powerful. They support him being the most powerful if he is, and according to that canon statement at least, he is.

Second, a fabricated e-mail that supposed to be from Kevin Anderson doesn't mean jack shit.

Originally posted by Advent
First of all, you can't wave around quotes if you haven't produced them. As usual, you're making claims without proof. It's your opinion that Kun's showing don't support him being the most powerful. They support him being the most powerful if he is, and according to that canon statement at least, he is.

Second, a fabricated e-mail that supposed to be from Kevin Anderson doesn't mean jack shit.

Ah, so Advent is going down the road of "LOLZ ITS FAKE". Ok, I accept your concession.

Secondly, it's not my OPINION it's FACT when Palpatine's feats completely TRUMP Kun's.

Finally, nobody is better at making shit up than you Advent. Repeating what I just said makes you look ridiculously. You need to cool off because it's obvious when you're mad.

Palptines feats totally trump Exar's? Why don't you list some of these amazing feats he had completed when Yoda had fought him?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Palptines feats totally trump Exar's? Why don't you list some of these amazing feats he had completed when Yoda had fought him?

What the hell? When Yoda fought him? Are you on drugs?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the hell? When Yoda fought him? Are you on drugs?

Can't you just answer a question instead of answering it like you always do, by avoiding it.

I think he means Palpatine as of RotS.

So you're wanting to use Yoda's fight against Sidious as proof that Sidious is so good that Yoda fighting is evidence that Yoda would beat Exar? WTF

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Palptines feats totally trump Exar's? Why don't you list some of these amazing feats he had completed when Yoda had fought him? Extreme TK and powerful lightning.

Can I ask the same about what Kun did in his duels?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So you're wanting to use Yoda's fight against Sidious as proof that Sidious is so good that Yoda fighting is evidence that Yoda would beat Exar? WTF
What the hell once again? You want me to prove that Sidious is more powerful than Kun by explaining what he did and didn't do in a fight with Yoda? You're giving me internet blue balls.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the hell once again? You want me to prove that Sidious is more powerful than Kun by explaining what he did and didn't do in a fight with Yoda? You're giving me internet blue balls.

Seriously dude, you are the one who started proclaiming Sidious has sooo many feats. Offer some specifics, or there isn't an argument for us to have.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Seriously dude, you are the one who started proclaiming Sidious has sooo many feats. Offer some specifics, or there isn't an argument for us to have.

Yes, I'm claiming he has a RIDICULOUS amount of feats. Read Gideon's essay. And your response is "show us what he did in fight x"? Wow.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Seriously dude, you are the one who started proclaiming Sidious has sooo many feats. Offer some specifics, or there isn't an argument for us to have. He has named quite a few in previous posts. Now can you name some feats of Kun's that trump Palpatine's?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Extreme TK and powerful lightning.

Pretty pathetic examples. Try and be more specific next time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Can I ask the same about what Kun did in his duels?

Freezing the entire Senate (millions) and killing one of the Order's top Jedi.

Killing the only Jedi to modify the Jedi Code with a mere whim.

Surviving the combined assault of a small Jedi army. (He lost his body, but survival is survival).

Killed Sith wyrm, which is pretty dang powerful.

Killed Freedon Nadd, who was also extremely powerful (Sadow's apprentice, conquered planet, spirit powerful enough to be serious threat even to Jedi Masters)

Invented the double bladed lightsaber and his own style, which was never able to be replicated.

What can you offer for Sidious???

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, I'm claiming he has a RIDICULOUS amount of feats. Read Gideon's essay. And your response is "show us what he did in fight x"? Wow.

Were aren't talking about what Sidious, throughout all incarnations was capable of, numskull. The only reference's that work are ones from before he fought Yoda, as we don't know how a fight between the two of them would have gone after that point. You what me to go read and essay? You can go read the comics for yourself, big man.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract




Freezing the entire Senate (millions) and killing one of the Order's top Jedi.
Millions my ass. You and the antediluvians have been peddling that for years. And none of them were force user. And this was replicated by C"Baoth who didn't need a sith spell.


OMG he modified the Jedi Code!! He must be awesome!!


This is so stupid it doesn't warrant a response.


With a force assisting amulet.


Who was ACTUALLY a pretty powerless spirit.


Didn't invent it according to JvS



This is one of the worst arguments for Kun I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Were aren't talking about what Sidious, throughout all incarnations was capable of, numskull. The only reference's that work are ones from before he fought Yoda, as we don't know how a fight between the two of them would have gone after that point. You what me to go read and essay? You can go read the comics for yourself, big man.

I was talking about Sidious in general, and you brought up the Yoda fight like an idiot. I've read the comics. I've also read many star wars books and Gideon's essay. Kun has nothing on Sidious.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Millions my ass. You and the antediluvians have been peddling that for years. And none of them were force user. And this was replicated by C"Baoth who didn't need a sith spell.

The Senate consisted of multiple members from each planet. There were hundreds of thousands of Republic member worlds at that time. You do the math. C'baoth, who I have been parading as very powerful for years, controlled the crew of one SD, not millions of minds. C'baoth was also rather taxed, Exar killed one of the Order's most powerful members while freezing a far greater number of people.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
OMG he modified the Jedi Code!! He must be awesome!!

Yoda basically worshiped this dude, so SMD.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is so stupid it doesn't warrant a response.

SMD, yes is does, ass wipe. It took a combined assault by THOUSANDS of Jedi to kill his body.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
With a force assisting amulet.

Which he always has on his person, and is started to have for this fight, genius.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Who was ACTUALLY a pretty powerless spirit.

A spirit who could kill Force Users. Get your facts strait.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Didn't invent it according to JvS

Prove it. Every source I have seen specifically states he did.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is one of the worst arguments for Kun I've ever seen.

You're an ass. And you make shitty arguments.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I was talking about Sidious in general, and you brought up the Yoda fight like an idiot. I've read the comics. I've also read many star wars books and Gideon's essay. Kun has nothing on Sidious.

Sidious in general has nothing to do with the Sidious Yoda fought. Get back on topic.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious in general has nothing to do with the Sidious Yoda fought. Get back on topic.

I never brought up the Yoda Sidious fight you buffoon. You brought it up.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
]The Senate consisted of multiple members from each planet. There were hundreds of thousands of Republic member worlds at that time. You do the math. C'baoth, who I have been parading as very powerful for years, controlled the crew of one SD, not millions of minds. C'baoth was also rather taxed, Exar killed one of the Order's most powerful members while freezing a far greater number of people.
C'Baoth controlled some 30 thousand members. Exar Kun FROZE the senate.




Which means absolutely dick Glentract.




No, it didn't TAKE thousands of Jedi, that's how many they used to INSURE that Kun, his temple, and all of his followers were destroyed.




Which again, COULD help him or not.




WHO DID HE KILL?




Jedi vs. Sith "It is a common misconception that Exar Kun created the first double blade light saber when in fact he used a holocron that may have been created by the Exiles to contstruct it". That's not the exact quote btw.





I've just destroyed yours. Go back to 2006

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Didn't invent it according to JvS

Originally posted by Borbarad
ROFL, Sexy. What a great application of logic that is.

You are aware of the fact that everything said in JvsS refers to the usual DBL design with the extreme long hilt, correct? Kun pretty much built a DBL with a usual length lightsaber hilt - and that, my friend, is a unique weapon design. And he also used a unique style for it just because of that.

And even if you want to assume that he got the design from some other source, that doesn't mean his style can't be unique. If you want to argue that, than Mace Windu couldn't have come up with Vaapad because he didn't invent the lightsaber...

Originally posted by Advent
Thank you, Borbarad. To quell the JvS myth further:

JvS is from Tionne Solusar, NJO historian four millenia after the GSW. She got that info from the Tedyrn Holocron. Since the Tedryn Holocron is a Jedi artifact, a Jedi must've recorded that. No Jedi could know where Kun's design came from & they'd be a fallible source to begin with, much like the narrator already is.

One line from an in-universe, third party source does not retcon anything! An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:

"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"

The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own. Fact. As for the form: There's no proof that a style was with it or that Kun would even use it. The battery pack's chord was connected to the hilt of the saber during the Exiles' era, therefore restricting movement to an extreme degree. So the Jedi would've had to adapt for that, Kun would not have to with the advancement of modern lightsabers.

This is important to consider since twirling the saber like Kun does would tangle the chord, cut it & cut off power to their lightsaber! So it is safe to assume that even if he didn't create the model (he did), he created an entirely new style. Evidence firmly supports me, your evidence is "Tionne said it, it must be true!". Uh....NAH!

Not to mention, it states that the imaginary holocron might of came from the Exiles. JvS is not conclusive proof of a retcon when it doesn't even have its facts straight nor does it make sense nor does it have authority over OOU.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

For reference, OOU = Out Of Universe.

Originally posted by Advent
From what I remember, Joruus was bat-shit insane and only thought that he could control a fraction of the number of beings that Kun froze against their will. Those subjects were also willing to let Joruus influence them. That's not close to being "replicated".







For reference, OOU = Out Of Universe.

Ignoring a newer source in favor of another one. Advent, you should be ashamed.

But yes, Tionne, a historian MUST be fallible lol.

And there's a big difference in freezing someone in their tracks, and commanding a few star destroyers to do your bidding.

I'm looking at the Star Wars databank Advent, where does it say that he invented his own blade?

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/exarkun/index.html

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Pretty pathetic examples. Try and be more specific next time. Well he nearly knocked Yoda (one of the most powerful light side users in history) unconscience. Same lightning ripped Yoda's saber right out of his hands, and nearly overwhelmed him (Note: Yoda casually obsorbed and redirected Dooku's lightning attack that was capable of causing a huge explosion in the ceiling.

Also Sidious easily ripped several senate pods from durasteel retraints, and throw them. He did this while levatating himself on one.

Now Tell me what Kun did to beat this in a duel with another powerful force user.



In a duel with another force user?

Sidious dimished the entire jedi order's ability to use the force.

How powerful was the jedi? Compare him to Yoda. I bet you can't make one.

Well in that case, Sidious managed to survive being sucked in a wormhole that annililated starfleets.

During Sidious's sithisis ritual he ruduced a sith worm to ash

Ok?

Sidious blitzed four masters in seconds and nearly overwhelmed Mace.

I just did.

Name something that Kun did to rival Sidious taking on the entire rebel fleet by himself (Note: He would have succeeded if it wasn't for Luke, Leia and her unborn children from using the full power of the lightside to surround Sidious.

Sidious also drained billions of Byss inhabitants of their life force, and turning Byss into one of the most powerful dark side nexus in the galaxy.

Apparently, you need to learn to read. It has nothing to do with it being ignoring newer sources, nitwit. I explained the logic behind it quite clearly:

Originally posted by Advent
JvS is from Tionne Solusar, NJO historian four millenia after the GSW. She got that info from the Tedyrn Holocron. Since the Tedryn Holocron is a Jedi artifact, a Jedi must've recorded that. No Jedi could know where Kun's design came from & they'd be a fallible source to begin with, much like the narrator already is.

One line from an in-universe, third party source does not retcon anything! An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:

"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"

The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own. Fact.

For those of us who can read, out-of-universe canon contradicts in-universe beliefs that are heavily flawed by reason. On that basis, the out of universe source takes precedent.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm looking at the Star Wars databank Advent, where does it say that he invented his own blade?

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/exarkun/index.html

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm looking at the Star Wars databank Advent, where does it say that he invented his own blade?

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/exarkun/index.html

You must be pretty blind: "It should also be noted that Kun was the first to weild a double-bladed lightsaber". So, you are telling me that people who designed the weapon didn't even pick it up?

And this behind the scenes is part of the database? Who wrote this a 12 year old?

'It should also be noted that Kun was the first to weild a double-bladed lightsaber, beating Darth Maul to the punch by several years."

Wtf is weild?

Originally posted by Advent
You must be pretty blind: "It should also be noted that Kun was the first to weild a double-bladed lightsaber". So, you are telling me that people who designed the weapon didn't even pick it up?

Ah so you want me to guess why. That's not my job advent. Creator and "wield" are two different things. Stop playing Kun's therapist.

Ok you win Advent, you want me to play the guessing game with you and it just so happens that I love guessing games. So let me try my first guess.

One of the Jedi Exiles had the knowledge to build a double bladed saber, put that knowledge in the holocron, and sometime later decided that alchemically altered sith swords were better.

Tell me if I'm hot or cold.

Stop trolling:

Originally posted by Advent
JvS is from Tionne Solusar, NJO historian four millenia after the GSW. She got that info from the Tedyrn Holocron. Since the Tedryn Holocron is a Jedi artifact, a Jedi must've recorded that. No Jedi could know where Kun's design came from & they'd be a fallible source to begin with, much like the narrator already is.

One line from an in-universe, third party source does not retcon anything! An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:

"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"

The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own. Fact. As for the form: There's no proof that a style was with it or that Kun would even use it. The battery pack's chord was connected to the hilt of the saber during the Exiles' era, therefore restricting movement to an extreme degree. So the Jedi would've had to adapt for that, Kun would not have to with the advancement of modern lightsabers.

This is important to consider since twirling the saber like Kun does would tangle the chord, cut it & cut off power to their lightsaber! So it is safe to assume that even if he didn't create the model (he did), he created an entirely new style. Evidence firmly supports me, your evidence is "Tionne said it, it must be true!". Uh....NAH! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Not to mention, it states that the imaginary holocron might of came from the Exiles. JvS is not conclusive proof of a retcon when it doesn't even have its facts straight nor does it make sense nor does it have authority over OOU.

Is there any reason you don't seem to be reading the passage provided from an out-of-universe source? Is there any reason why you think finding a typo in the Star Wars data bank disproves...anything?

Originally posted by Advent
Stop trolling:



Is there any reason you don't seem to be reading the passage provided from an out-of-universe source? Is there any reason why you think finding a typo in the Star Wars data bank disproves...anything?

Besides the fact that it doesn't say he created? No not really. I'm downloading this "source" as we speak so I'll get back to you on it.

Originally posted by Advent
Have you ignored KMC for the past three days?







The quotes from tNEC, Vader: Ultimate Guide, Death Star, and Dark Empire Sourcebook are all but nugatory. Care to produce any more of these "many" quotes?

Few things you kind of neglect, Advent:
1. The UTTER hypocrisy of the old Antediluvian route of "No context of power!!!!!" DESPITE your own quote providing...no context of what power means. He
2. This is from 2005. We have plenty since then.
3. You also neglect to mention it's discussing the OLD REPUBLIC ERA THERE, period. There is no 'ever,' no 'in history,' no 'all times,' nothing. It's describing the Sith of that specific era and no other.

Oh, and you know what's rich? Your response to the DE quote is to vaguely complain about how there are things more recent but when a more recent quote from Vader the Ultimate Guide is introduced, you suddenly develop contradictory standards and claim "Oh, well, power doesn't mean!"
Well, I don't see "In The Force" after 'powerful' for your pony tailed prince. Can we say double standards?

Originally posted by Advent
Stop trolling:



Is there any reason you don't seem to be reading the passage provided from an out-of-universe source? Is there any reason why you think finding a typo in the Star Wars data bank disproves...anything?

And SUDDENLY you gain standards for THIS, too? Miss "An in universe quote meant to illustrate new knowledge!...except when I don't like it."

I'm sorry, are you making this argument? Hey, in-universe sources presenting new information aren't valid, despite my arguing for them in the past

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Pretty pathetic examples. Try and be more specific next time.



Freezing the entire Senate (millions) and killing one of the Order's top Jedi.
Millions? The senate at its MAX consisted of thousands of seats, not millions. Prove up.


So he killed someone with legislative clout, and?

Poor argument. He survived because he ran off and performed a ritual that trapped his soul in the temple. He never fought a single Jedi on Yavin

Prove it. It was a mindless beast from what we saw

Nadd: Fear me not! I am powerless in my current state, Jedi! (From The Freedon Nadd Uprising)
Nadd was dangerous because he could corrupt. They did NOT fear his spirit's power despite occasional bursts that knocked down one surprised Jedi.
Oh, you forget Nadd was caught off guard when Kun punched him with something that automatically destroyed him.
Clone Trooper #4 must be AWESOME as he shot Ki Ai

Probably retconned now, sorry. Prove this 'own style,' too

Want to get us started, kiddo?

Look who's come crawling back...

ouch

Originally posted by Advent
First of all, you can't wave around quotes if you haven't produced them. As usual, you're making claims without proof. It's your opinion that Kun's showing don't support him being the most powerful. They support him being the most powerful if he is, and according to that canon statement at least, he is.

Second, a fabricated e-mail that supposed to be from Kevin Anderson doesn't mean jack shit.

"I have a quote applying to one era from 2001. Let me ignore the ones from earlier and future years."


Yeah, great. Prove it. Using something beyond double standards and a single overwritten quote from 2001


Amazing. One of the most hardliner 'my way or the highway' posters in this entire board who has rarely, if EVER had issues with the Antediluvians forcing their opinions in the old days (Read: Traya, Nai, Sorgo) is suddenly "Well, let me have MY opinion?"

You have to be kidding about the absence of quotes, too. There aren't an 'absence' of them, you're creating reasons to dismiss the ones you don't like.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Few things you kind of neglect, Advent:
1. The UTTER hypocrisy of the old Antediluvian route of "No context of power!!!!!" DESPITE your own quote providing...no context of what power means. He

Are you embracing their argument then? I don't understand because you say 'the utter hypocrisy of the Antedelivian' and remind me that I'm 'neglecting it' (wouldn't that be a good thing?). My beliefs are that if it says "most powerful" it means "most powerful" unless there's reasonable evidence from the context of the passage that contradicts that. In Palpatine's case, every last quote that I've seen (so far, at least) has been under the assumption of political power or written from an in-universe perspective that don't have the authority to make such a claim.



What? The entire two page article is about Sith Lords from the PT, OT and Old Republic. It says that he's "the most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords", it's reasonable to assume it was including people like Palpatine because...he's profiled on the page immediately before and is a Sith Lord. You're looking for things that aren't there.



Lightsnake, the more recent quote from Vader: the Ultimate Guide has the pretense of political power. It was clearly defined as being such and I explained why already. It isn't a double standard.



Actually, I said if we're disregarding quotes like those, then yes, it is a matter of opinion as to who's the most powerful ever since Kun and Palpatine are basically among the most powerful Sith Lords regardless.

Originally posted by Advent
Are you embracing their argument then? I don't understand because you say 'the utter hypocrisy of the Antedelivian' and remind me that I'm 'neglecting it' (wouldn't that be a good thing?). My beliefs are that if it says "most powerful" it means "most powerful" unless there's reasonable evidence from the context of the passage that contradicts that. In Palpatine's case, every last quote that I've seen (so far, at least) has been under the assumption of political power or written from an in-universe perspective that don't have the authority to make such a claim.
Oh, so you mean you use a different standard from one case. Ok. It's a reference to Kun's military power or just in context of the era. The last.
Can we say 'hypocrisy,' Advent? You suddenly decide the quotes can mean something else. When you have DIRECTLY argued in the past in-universe quotes that are major enough tend to be just author mouthpieces. When power is used with the Sith it tends to be power in the Dark Side. So the quote in Vader the Ultimate Guide? Get over it.
"
"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.""
Yeah, is Vader planning to defeat Palpatine in a political debate? Or perhaps militarily? No, he wants to get an apprentice so they can kill the most powerful Sith together. In this context, of needing someone else to physically defeat an opponent you can't beat on your own, what do you think 'power' MEANS? When Dooku realized next to yoda he 'was not the most powerful' after all, did he mean Yoda wielded more political clout?
There's WAY more context here than any of that quote for Kun.

And yeah, the author of the official galactic histories who is familiar with Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow blowing up suns, Exar Kun using the amulet, freezing the senate and the like isn't a decent authority. Sure. Right



Yeah, and you'll notice all of it is written in a differing context relating on the era being discussed? Kun is the most dangerous and powerful when compared to Ulic, Nadd and Sadow.




This is a deliberate twisting of the truth

Bullshit. As I explained above, this is blatant bias that makes precisely no sense.
Prove Kun's quote is in a context that precludes it being military or political power, given he ruled a sizable brotherhood in the end that, according to the KOTOR comics, was giving the galaxy a run for its money.

Oh, and the context, I reiterate in case you didn't get it the first time:
"
"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.""
Wait, could this be you taking the former ACTION of this-Vader wanting political power- and applying it to an almost independent sentence?
Sorry, but the sentence directly implies Vader cannot defeat Palpatine because of his PERSONAL POWER.



who needs to disregard anything when your single quote is woefully out of date and all the tedious distortions of what overwrites it mean nothing at the end of the day.

And even disregard them, we can just apply plenty else. Knowledge? Showings? You name it. The ponytailed prince comes up short


Except...Kun isn't stronger. He lacks a better control of the Force, he lacks expressions of power to put him up there...and oh, yeah, Palpatine's collection of lore and arcana eclipses Exar's ten times over at a conservative estimate.

Not to mention Palpatine with the saber is easily comparable to or superior than Exar.

Clearly somebody's a little envious over the ponytail.

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."

A quote that is entirely subject to indirect narration. An original reference to Vader's personal thoughts ("Vader imagined...", with the entire passage remaining to be stated from his perspective ("But first, he would...", "By himself, he could not...".

Originally posted by ApolloCIoud
Clearly somebody's a little envious over the ponytail.

Time for another ban

Reported.

Harsh, though envy is a sin.

wut?

I do not think you fully understand my motives. In fact, I think you're projecting.

I was still hung up on the ponytail, which is totally super-dreamy btw.

It would mean very very much to my opinion of Yoda IF I knew for sure whether sidious lost his lightsaber to yoda, or if he simply put it away.

That would make all the difference to me in ROTS Sidious and ROTS Yoda threads.

truejedi
It would mean very very much to my opinion of Yoda IF I knew for sure whether sidious lost his lightsaber to yoda, or if he simply put it away.

According to the official script, which is G-canon, Yoda disarmed the Emperor.

The problem therein is that the script does not seem to make any sense whatsoever: Yoda disarms Sidious; Sidious blasts Yoda with Force lightning; Yoda deflects the lightning back towards Sidious "and it appears as though the Dark Lord is doomed"; Yoda vows to kill Sidious and presses the advantage... before letting him go.

Unlikely, not to mention that Palpatine was not on the Chancellor's podium when the duel resumes in the movie; rather, Yoda is seen leaping from the podium to pursue Sidious.

It's entirely possible that Yoda disarmed him; Sidious was thirteen years out of practice. But circumstances would have to be right: how would an unarmed Sith Lord escape from Yoda at close quarters and apparently put colossal distance between them?

Perhaps he temporarily incapacitated Yoda? Who knows?

Originally posted by Gideon
According to the official script, which is G-canon, Yoda disarmed the Emperor.

The problem therein is that the script does not seem to make any sense whatsoever: Yoda disarms Sidious; Sidious blasts Yoda with Force lightning; Yoda deflects the lightning back towards Sidious "and it appears as though the Dark Lord is doomed"; Yoda vows to kill Sidious and presses the advantage... before letting him go.

Unlikely, not to mention that Palpatine was not on the Chancellor's podium when the duel resumes in the movie; rather, Yoda is seen leaping from the podium to pursue Sidious.

It's entirely possible that Yoda disarmed him; Sidious was thirteen years out of practice. But circumstances would have to be right: how would an unarmed Sith Lord escape from Yoda at close quarters and apparently put colossal distance between them?

Perhaps he temporarily incapacitated Yoda? Who knows?

you're right that it doesn't make sense. I had always wondered, because Yoda is right up in the empourer's grill before the cut-away, he has Sidious trapped on the Senate podium, and is moving much faster than the empourer. Then they cut away, and bam, Yoda is in the SCREWED position.

The same thing happens with Kenobi and Anakin. Before the cutaway, Anakin is on the ground, and Kenobi is pushing both sabers down towards his throat, the sabers are obviously moving, Anakin is on the ground, flat on his back, Kenobi is standing. if you have ever lifted weights, you know the closer the weights get to you when you are putting them down,(bench press) the harder it is to keep from dropping them. THat is what is happening to Anakin here, and the sabers were moving from the very beginning.

Then cut-away, and they are both on their feet, going at it again.

Not very clear, that is for sure.

Either Palp was disarmed or decided it'd be safer fighting from a distance...both say good things for Yoda

Advent, let's go. I'm on a fragile timeframe here.

I'm not a thirty-minutes-or-it's-free pizza delivery service, Gideon. You will get what I give when I give it. When I have the time to write a well thought out response on the most controversial issue of this forum, I will give it.

But, to put your fragile timeframe heart to rest, I will try to make sure FedEx delivers my post by the end of the weekend.

That's an inappropriate comparison. Perhaps not pizza, but I'm sure you provide other thirty minute services for free.





And you'll give it when I command you to give it: soonplz.



As demonstrated last night with your persistent responses to Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, Faunus, and myself, you do have the time to provide an argument. But perhaps not the ability?

Yes, that's probably it.

131



Thx.

Originally posted by Advent
I'm not a thirty-minutes-or-it's-free pizza delivery service, Gideon. You will get what I give when I give it. When I have the time to write a well thought out response on the most controversial issue of this forum, I will give it. Damn Gideon, sounds like she put her hoe back in line, lol.

If said post is going to be up to the same standards of what you've demonstrated thus far in the last few days, we don't have much to look forward to.

Darth Subjekt
Damn Gideon, sounds like she put her hoe back in line, lol.

Nonsense.

Or not nonsense, if her hoe isn't me. But if you are suggesting that I, in this case, am the hoe, then you are mistaken.

Do not let her vag. fool you. Advent's been reading so much of the Antediluvian that she might as well be Traya reincarnated. Traya, by the way, turned out to be a guy.

Advent's been struggling against His Imperial Majesty for years. Sooner or later, she's going to realize that he's more powerful, smarter, more successful, more important, and better endowed than any Sith Lord in the mythos.

131

And my comment totally owned hers.

Lightsnake, please. You have your Sidious Spectacles perma-equipped and nothing, NOTHING will ever change your mind about what you want to believe about him. You are the perfect example of someone too entrenched in their own beliefs that you won't even consider the possibility of popping your head out of those trenches.

Originally posted by Gideon
As demonstrated last night with your persistent responses to Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, Faunus, and myself, you do have the time to provide an argument. But perhaps not the ability?

Yes, that's probably it.

That was an issue that will probably never be raised again. On the other hand, who is the most powerful Sith has been the most controversial debate since the inception of this forum. It's not enough to just write what I think down without consulting the same sources the opposition is using because I like to be Fair & Balanced, look at all the evidence - not just ignore stuff because I don't like it, and have a discussion rather than an argument. Like I've been saying, I'm open to both sides of the issue because there's compelling arguments either way.

If you want to chat over MSN, however I'd be more than glad to do that right now.

I'm always on for you, baby.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm always on for you, baby. Save it Gideon I just gagged a little.

Originally posted by Advent
Lightsnake, please. You have your Sidious Spectacles perma-equipped and nothing, NOTHING will ever change your mind about what you want to believe about him. You are the perfect example of someone too entrenched in their own beliefs that you won't even consider the possibility of popping your head out of those trenches.

This is a perfect example of irony, considering your display in the last topic when you were presented with canon policy and direct novel information. Your response? "I don't give a damn." Presented with bare quotes in this thread, you immediately attempted to declare them invalid on incredibly faulty reasoning using standards contrary to those you've used in the past. This coming from someone who will fervently argue for emperor ponytail by somehow deciding power in one context is just political while the one in her favor can only mean force power.
What's next, the quote referring to Caedus being




No, you don't ignore it because you don't like it. All you're doing is attempting to invalidate it on absurd premises.


Whenever you want.

mattatom
Gideon I just gagged a little.

Originally posted by Gideon
Save it for MSN Gideon...

Q_VZdQ92pQc

"you guys are freaks."

IN BED!

^

z0mg! Can't forget about this!

This official bump is brought to you by His Imperial Majesty, the Galactic Emperor Palpatine, the most powerful, accomplished, and bestest Sith Lord evar!!1!

Be quiet.

Well who made you king?

Jebus swung by in the Krishnumobile last month. Don't you remember the tirade?

You were denounced as the only threat to world domination.

Listen, pal: strange women lieing in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. I mean, can you imagine if I went around calling myself an emperor just because some watery tart lobbed a golden scimitar at me? People would think I was crazy.

I know I've seen that before...