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As many of you know, the 90's is a time that marvel would like to forget but recently I've been rereading or finding some of those stories and. Hit and miss I guess...

I remember reading X-Cutioner's Song and Fatal Attractions as a kid and enjoying them a lot. My Fatal Attractions trade was lost when I sold it for a DS-1 Distortion Pedal so I don't remember much about the writing other than some memorable panels.

Now I got HUUUGEE into Daredevil as some of you know. Recently I've been picking up some of the comics that haven't been collected from that time period. Ann Nocenti's run was awesome as was Last Rites (called Fall of the Kinpin in trade form), a wonderful sequel to Frank Miller's Born Again. However, I recently purchased the TPB for Fall From Grace. Wow. This thing was kind of saved from the shitcan cause it was Daredevil but both story and the art were impossible to follow. And not in the cool Frank Miller/Grant Morrison let's reread this a couple of times kind of way. This shit was a convoluted mess that was nearly impossible to follow. I'm almost afraid to try to read Tree of Knowledge, Fathoms of Humanity, Over the Edge, Divine Comedy, FEar, and Flying Blind, the other major stories before Kevin Smith gave that book a kick in the ass.

I had the same experience with X-Cutioner's Song. Rereading it, it just seemed like this awful, convoluted mess.

Does anyone else feel like between 1992 and 1998 Marvel was using bad color schemes and that they just put their books together by cutting up panels, throwing them up in the air, adding Gambit or Venom, and then barely patching them up before selling them?

Discuss...

Well I think the general attitude was quantity over quality in the nineties. Foil covers and saturating the market with no 1 issues. And it worked for the best part of a decade. I joined comics with the Spider-man clone saga.

I think for the most part the stories were bad, however there were a few gems. I'm forever partial to Ben Reilly, who got me into comics.

Now for all his mistakes, Quesada has a lot of strengths. When he became Marvel's top dog, he decided to have quality over quantity. Stories became good again, interesting. A bigger variety of art and writing styles was introduced through the Marvel Knights line and half of those titles (2, Daredevil and Punisher) were very well written and very successful. Sales dipped as not every comic looked like a foil issue with interiors by Jim Lee or Rob Liefield.

However, other factors like the movies saved Marvel and now we have entered a new era of comics, the one we are still in, where the emphasis is unfortunately not on content, nor (fortunately) on having a gimmick like a foil cover. Nowadays creative teams rule the roost. When this period is looked back upon in the history of comics, it will be seen as the period after the gimmicky 90's, just past the age of foil covers and into the age where the writer and artist ruled and dictated which comic fans should spend money on. It's a step in the right direction but comics haven't peaked yet, IMO.

I find myself buying alotta comics from the 90's I think half or maybe over half of my spiderman collection is made up of issues from the 90's, that includes the clone saga. I gotta say though I enjoyed the ultimate clone saga storyline very much and it was one of the best storylines I've ever read Unfortunately most of the ultimate universe got killed off which I was dissapointed with since I thought the storylines were pretty good.

Lets not forget that DC also had the storyline that came as quite a shock to not only DC fans but I'm sure marvel fans as well, January 1993 the death of superman...doubt there's ever been a death quite as big as that.

Originally posted by willRules
Now for all his mistakes, Quesada has a lot of strengths. When he became Marvel's top dog, he decided to have quality over quantity. Stories became good again, What bizzaro alternate reality marvel comics are you reading?

Originally posted by Creshosk
What bizzaro alternate reality marvel comics are you reading?

That's right, Joe Q was sooooo bad he got the top job at Marvel

I read the regular Marvel comics.

Have you ever read a comic drawn by Quesada? The guy is a fantastic artist, his Daredevil work is jaw dropping.

Say what you will about Joey Q, but yes, Marvel's doing lots better than it was a decade ago. Lots. He's been good for business, at least.

Death's Head II was a 90's child, and the aura of testosterone throughout the entire decade actually worked for his title, so I can't hate the decade too much.

Two best Daredevil'ers I know of, Quesada and Bendis.

Originally posted by Digi


Death's Head II was a 90's child, and the aura of testosterone throughout the entire decade actually worked for his title, so I can't hate the decade too much.

Ah I remember that and Marvel UK, that was some good stuff.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Two best Daredevil'ers I know of, Quesada and Bendis.

Agreed. Brubaker's doing a fantastic job as well. I also like Andy Diggle's work, for the most part, so I look forward to his run.

I've just been noticing, and granted I'm not the most reliable critic because I do have protanomoly, that from about 1990-1994, Marvel was using these really ugly dark colors, lots of dark browns and blacks which worked will initially but later on just becomes a hard to follow mess where all the panels seem to meld together. Then around 95, things get glossy, disgustingly bright, and cartoony. Plus everyone thinks that just because they have a higher color budget that they should use all these bright cartoony, primary colors to the point where Daredevil, Spider-Man, and even the Punisher look like something out of Lion King. It's a color theory John Kricfalusi angrily called "candy cane lane". The characters' faces get really weird, ugly and angular too with lots of out of place prominent chins and generally, weird blobby body proportions. It's like the Dark Knight Strikes Again theory of comics but not ironic. Oh, and all the male characters decided that wearing bright colors is the best thing for camouflage while all the female characters decided that the only parts of their body that needed protection even from the elements were their butt cracks, pubic triangles, and nipples.

Story wise you've got the clone saga with the real Spidey retiring, you've got more X-Books than anyone really cares about and all of them seem to star Wolverine, Cable, or Gambit. You've got Matt Murdock bringing Elektra back to life, faking his death, and then running around in a black armored costume with Batman toys in it calling himself "Jack Battlin". Oh, and of course you've got the Punisher adopting the Steven Segal look, becoming a mob boss and later an agent of the dead, and having more Bullseye encounters over the course of the decade than Daredevil.
There are a lot of really under appreciated series that have been forgotten in the mess though. Some of Nocenti and Chichester's run on Daredevil is good. Nocenti's adult Typhoid miniseries is unbelievably good as is some of the Captain America stuff. The rest...I dunno.

Anyone remember that horrible artist that made everybody look wierd?

Dillon? Whoever did the one issue of The Target before it was canceled? Lynn Varney in some of her work?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyone remember that horrible artist that made everybody look wierd?

...Liefeld?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Dillon? Whoever did the one issue of The Target before it was canceled? Lynn Varney in some of her work?

Nah not Dillion. I havent seen him anymore, his style was kinda squiggly and he would make people look wack, like he would make peoples bodies disproportionate or something, like there arms were drawn to big.

Dillon draws all faces the same, everybody has an under bite and really heavy eyelids. Just really volumetric as if making everything thick and heavy makes art good. The only comic I've read where it worked was Bullseye v. punisher. But that's about 10 years outside of when I'm talking about.

Originally posted by willRules
I read the regular Marvel comics. Really? Because I read what's going on with the X-men, and things like civil war and One more day... You think those are good quality stories? Seems like its just one big event after the other these days, and that's quantity over quality right there.

Originally posted by tjcoady
...Liefeld?


Nah I just looked it up..Tom Grindberg...wackness.

http://www.comicvine.com/the-secret-defenders-/37-38103/

What you have to consider is that when you have a character, such as Daredevil (Whose comics I am looking to complete), 500 issues into their life, things can get stale.

Think of it like a band with a lengthy discography; The Cure, The Rolling Stones etc. These bands have more than 10 albums and those discographies are subject to patchiness.

By the 90s, things had already been around for ages and lots of new cultural phenomena were rearing their heads. The wave of the anti-hero picked up more pace than ever, as well as other trends.

I think new artist/writer combos just suffer from transition.

I remember reading Agent X. As soon as they changed the artist from Udon Studios to others, it felt like it was shit. Mostly because Gail Simone left too. Looking back, they aren't bad, they're just different.

However, comics with massive runs are ALWAYS gonna have filler issues. Filler issues without substance or purpose. You can't have an infinite arc, you know?

Arcs are striking when they follow a few disjointed issues.

Of course, there are some writers that genuinely can't write for shit, in my opinion. I will always hate most of what Chris Claremont has ever done, and will only ever read his stories again if he changes the X-Men bedsheets.

Ok, Mutant Massacre. Besides Mutant Massacre.

To re-iterate; it's like any decade. There'll be good and bad.

Personally, Bendis was amazing on Daredevil and I fail to see why he has such a bad reputation it seems. He lost a bit of potency on New Avengers at one point, but I think he's one of the most consistent writers right now, besides Brubaker.

Miller, Bendis, Quesada and Brubaker. In those you've got Daredevil in good hands. I also liked Kevin Smith's Guardian Devil.

Among my faved '90s runs; those, Kelly's run on Deadpool and of course, Deadpool himself being spawned.

Liefield is a horrible man, but ironically, I love his Deadpool. Anyone WITHOUT a full mask, though...no.

-AC

Originally posted by Creshosk
Really? Because I read what's going on with the X-men, and things like civil war and One more day... You think those are good quality stories? Seems like its just one big event after the other these days, and that's quantity over quality right there.

X-men: Messiah Complex came out a while back and that felt like a classic X-men event. Great quality and it crossed most of the X-line of comicdom.

I agree with you, OMD was travesty. Only two good things to say about it

1)The art, drawn by Quesada. Great quality
2) The Spidey-verse post OMD. Much better. Good Quality

I also suffer from event fatigue. But Civil War was fantastic. Art was great and I think Mark Millar is a genius. Plus the post Civil War MU was soooo much more interesting. Again, Good Quality. I didn't enjoy secret invasion as much but the same can be said post MU. Some Dark Reign stuff has been terrible, some has been great.

It seems to me, these days for every crappy story put out by Marvel, two good titles are on the shelf. I was sad to see Cap Britain go very recently, but it ended on high and was a fantastic quality series.

I understand that taste is subjective, but do you seriously think Marvel's quality has been dropping recently? I personally think the top two publishers especially haven't been this good for years.

But I guess it's just different strokes for different folks

I don't suffer from event fatigue so much now.

Simply because I see Civil War, Secret Invasion and Dark Reign as under the same umbrella. The last two more so.

If Dark Reign doesn't pay off, though, I'll be pissed. Most exciting event in ages. I won't actually get as invested in the others if this one ends badly.

-AC

please stay on topic. As for having a rough start. That doesn't quite explain why Chichester started strong on Daredevil and then just turned to suck. Same with other writers of the period like Fabien Niceiza or however you spell it.

I quite like the 90's comics alot of my comics are from that era and some before then have'nt really come across anything bad myself from that era.

Really? between 1991-1998 you didn't find anything objectionable?

Originally posted by Kazenji
I quite like the 90's comics alot of my comics are from that era and some before then have'nt really come across anything bad myself from that era.

Punisher may have had the worst decade of his life in the 90's - creatively speaking. Weapons from heaven?

Originally posted by roughrider
Punisher may have had the worst decade of his life in the 90's - creatively speaking. Weapons from heaven?

Countdown and the first issue of the edge punisher series and I think a few issues before were awesome though. I love any pairing of the Punisher and Bullseye just cause he seems to frustrate Frank and drive him crazier than anyone else I can think of other than Daredevil.

One of the best things Marvel did to start the 90's was to bring back Thanos.
What else went on that was positive -

Peter David kept an amazing run on Hulk going until 1998.
Jim Starlin & George Perez returned to freelance for Marvel.
Jim Lee became a superstar artist.
Andy & Adam Kubert defected from DC and became Marvel stalwarts for many years.

I always thought Jim Lee was overrated and waaaay too colorful. But to reiterate, despite my criticism, I thought the following stories were really good (or I remember them being good). I never read Age of Apocalypse so I'm not going to comment on that.-

Daredevil: Mephisto, Man Without Mercy, Last Rites/Fall of the Kingpin.
Captain America/Avengers: Streets of Poison, Galactic Storm, the Diamondback/Crossbones angle.
Marvel Comics Presents...: Weapon X, any stories featuring Typhoid, a Crossbones one-shot where he escapes from prison.
Punisher: Countdown
Black Widow: The Coldest War
Black Widow and Daredevil: Abottior
Typhoid limited series
X-books: X-Tinction Agenda and Fatal Attractions.


There is also one moment that I think visually represents the end of the 90's excess for Marvel Comics. It's in Gambit #17 (I think) and it's last panel. The entire comic is a recap of his craptastic overblown adventures and it ends jarringly with him being impaled by Bullseye. To paraphrase from a Sensational Spider-Man issue from the time period- "Did you know that there's some mutant freak stealing my schtick? What was his name? Gamble or Gumbo or something...Unlike him, I throw more than cards!!!"

Originally posted by Darth Jello
please stay on topic. As for having a rough start. That doesn't quite explain why Chichester started strong on Daredevil and then just turned to suck. Same with other writers of the period like Fabien Niceiza or however you spell it.

When exactly did Nicieza suck?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When exactly did Nicieza suck?

-AC

He didn't. I thought he was an entertaining writer. He & Scott Lobdell had the unenviable task of following up Chris Claremont's work on X-Men.

I didn't even like Claremont.

His later years anyway.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I didn't even like Claremont.

His later years anyway.

-AC

No, by the beginning of the 90's he was due to leave X-Men. He used to think they should cancel the book when he leaves; they survived without him.

I think the artistic highpoint for Marvel in the 90's was MARVELS.

But Alex Ross would go on to top even that with KINGDOM COME.

Considering Marvel has (I believe) Adi Granov, the best comic book artist of all time, I don't think that's fair to say.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Considering Marvel has (I believe) Adi Granov, the best comic book artist of all time, I don't think that's fair to say.

-AC

I was referring to Marvel in the 90's only. Granov wasn't around then.

Alex Ross vs. Adi Granov? That's fairly close, for full-colour painters...

Originally posted by roughrider
Punisher may have had the worst decade of his life in the 90's - creatively speaking. Weapons from heaven?

Can't say much on that since i have'nt read it.