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Who will win this duel, eh?
Conditions:

1.) Saber
2.) Force
3.) All Out

What I think:

1.) Luke
2.) Anakin
3.) Luke, but Anakin still has a chance.

My logic is that Luke defeated Vader, who is stronger than Anakin in the Force, but not so much in Saber skills. So what do you think?

Anakin. More control of both the force and a lightsaber. Vader didn't want to kill Luke anyways. Even still, Anakin contended with Dooku and visibly wore him out, as evident by the deep breath after it was over. Luke used no force really in his duel with Vader, saver for a couple jumps and one saber grab.

Vader didn't use the Force in their duel, and if he would have, he should have been able to swat Luke down like a fly.

ROTJ Luke doesn't have more than possibly two months of informal training (with the lowest estimate of time that Luke spent on Dagobah being as little as two weeks). In AOTC, Anakin's proficiency with saber combat had Dooku more hard-pressed than when he was dueling his master Obi-Wan. Luke has done nothing to indicate that he'd be able to beat a young, athletic and agile Jedi like Anakin who has at least a decade of experience and formal apprenticeship under a Jedi Master.

anakin ftw! lol

that sounded remarkably similar to animeftw
w/e

Originally posted by Advent
Vader didn't use the Force in their duel, and if he would have, he should have been able to swat Luke down like a fly.

ROTJ Luke doesn't have more than possibly two months of informal training (with the lowest estimate of time that Luke spent on Dagobah being as little as two weeks). In AOTC, Anakin's proficiency with saber combat had Dooku more hard-pressed than when he was dueling his master Obi-Wan. Luke has done nothing to indicate that he'd be able to beat a young, athletic and agile Jedi like Anakin who has at least a decade of experience and formal apprenticeship under a Jedi Master.

Luke had 4 years of unprofessional training.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Luke had 4 years of unprofessional training.

Anakin had 10 years under an order that was 20,000+ years old, was at its prime, and under Obi Wan Kenobi, one of the greatest jedi of all time.

But then again, apparently Luke by DE had surpassed ROTS Anakin, so maybe Luke is just a very fast learner.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Anakin had 10 years under an order that was 20,000+ years old, was at its prime, and under Obi Wan Kenobi, one of the greatest jedi of all time.

But then again, apparently Luke by DE had surpassed ROTS Anakin, so maybe Luke is just a very fast learner.

What is DE? And Luke and Anakin were the fastest learners of the order.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Luke had 4 years of unprofessional training. Bullshit. He didn't know either OB1 or Yoda for 4 years, so who was he learning from for those 4 years? He knew OB1 for like, what, a week before daddy killed him. He wasn't on Degobah nearly that long, so where is that time period being pulled from?

Had Anakin not been met with his unfortunate incident on Mustafar, he would have surpassed all other force users, including Luke, as the chosen one. By AoTC, he was already ahead of his peers and was resented by many other of the Jedi, to include some Masters like Mace. (I believe I heard that in the AoTC commentary around the time when Anakin jumps out of the speeder.) Anakin destroys Luke here.

crylaugh

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Bullshit. He didn't know either OB1 or Yoda for 4 years, so who was he learning from for those 4 years? He knew OB1 for like, what, a week before daddy killed him. He wasn't on Degobah nearly that long, so where is that time period being pulled from?


By the time of ROTJ, he knew about the Force for 4 years.

How does knowledge about something equate to training in it? So from the second that OB1 explained to him the force in his house, he instantly started training in it? Come now. He had extremely limited and informal training from OB1 right before he died, suffice to say a quick tutorial rather than training. And then he was on Degobah for a couple months training with Yoda in a swamp, and failed almost all his little tests (rocks, x-wing, cave.. hell, his initial "interview" and that somehow translates into 4 years of training?

No sir. You have to prove that he was actually training over that time period when he was actively involved with the rebellion. When training yourself with no instruction or holocrons to study, you can only improve on the very limited knowledge that you already know. Nothing compared to what Anakin went through for 10 years, formally.

I know OF quantum physics, and have known OF it for some years now. I don't jack SHIT about it. Luke and I are in the same boat, albeit I'm still in steerage and he's made it to 3rd class.

luke wins all 3 this is no contest for 3 reasons

1) they didnt have cgi and nick gillard back then so you cant take the coreography to mean that all the PT duelists are better than all the OT duelists.

2) luke was also going easy on vader "i will not fight you father" pretty much sais it all

3) anakin is too cocky at the point and luke is calmer and more collected and would easily overwhelm his father,
now if you said rots anakin vs rotj luke, that would be a better and more even fight

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Anakin had 10 years under an order that was 20,000+ years old, was at its prime, and under Obi Wan Kenobi, one of the greatest jedi of all time.

But then again, apparently Luke by DE had surpassed ROTS Anakin, so maybe Luke is just a very fast learner.

so did kit fitso, agen kolar, ki adi mundi, adi galia and depa bilaba and mace windu, and look what happened to them

they were killed/defeated by some of the greatest fighters in the entire mythos?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
they were killed/defeated by some of the greatest fighters in the entire mythos?

clarify please

A few of them, were slain by clones.

ok so "hewhoknowsall" was giving the credentials of anakin as if being trained by the jedi order in a formal sense made you more powerful and i was giving examples of jedi who had the same training yet sucked

Originally posted by Man of Christ
ok so "hewhoknowsall" was giving the credentials of anakin as if being trained by the jedi order in a formal sense made you more powerful and i was giving examples of jedi who had the same training yet sucked

Uhhhh... so you're saying that Kit, Depa, and Mace suck?????? Because, that's what you just said/typed/whatever.

You have to realize that Luke was trained to be a weapon while Anakin's training was more about diplomacy and learning galactic customs. Luke had maybe a week with Obi-wan, plus two weeks or so with Yoda, and then several months training in Obi-wan's house before rescuing Han.

Regardless of training though, Luke demonstrated some impressive powers. He showed that he can use Force Choke (the Guards when first entering Jabba's palace. His lifting of the X-wing as much as he did it actually extremely impressive. Luke is a powerhouse and we've seen that Jedi trained in different manners can advance far more rapidly than PT Jedi (the NJO and Old Republic Jedi).

Luke wins it.

Originally posted by mattatom
A few of them, were slain by clones.

Yeah...a bunch of clones. That caught them off guard. While many of the Jedi were already in battle.

They have precognition... if they were being real Jedi they would of being actively looking for any threats...just like Yoda.

Luke dies

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Luke dies

Luke gets raped, badly!!!

Even after all these years, I still don't know where the duel on the Death Star fits canonically. Was Luke winning before he tapped in to his anger, or was Vader or holding back at that point, or what?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Even after all these years, I still don't know where the duel on the Death Star fits canonically. Was Luke winning before he tapped in to his anger, or was Vader or holding back at that point, or what? I think during the whole fight Luke was tapping in and out of his anger, but was able to control it at the beginning. Like when he kicked Vader down the stairs the Emperor starts laughing and says "Use your aggressive feelings boy... Let the hate flow through you", then Luke controls it and shuts off his lightsaber. But at the end of the duel, Luke is unable to control it and eventually wears Vader down.

And was Vader holding back at that point? Or was he holding back after Luke went all out?

That, I don't know. I would like to think Vader was holding back the whole fight. I don't think Vader wanted to kill Luke even though he said he was willing to. At that point Vader was struggling with his own feelings.

we will realize t didnt matter that vader was holding back when we realize that luke was also holding back...." i will not fight you father"

Yeh, Luke wasn't holding back at all...

nope, by the end, Luke definitly wasn't holding back. Luke talks later (i think in the battle of Mindor) about how vader was holding back against him in the fight.

we are going to go strictly with the movies here because if we use those glorified fanfics of novels we will find plenty of plotholes...............
the movie is plenty evident that luke was holding back....thats why he turned his saber off

actually, this is the vs. Forum, and all novels ARE canon, so we will go ahead and use them, just the same.

regardless though, novels or no:

he was no longer holding back after Vader threatened his sister. that is obvious.

yes and we saw the result of that......there are plotholes wrought throughout star wars and whether or not vader was holding back is one of them...dont mistake the differences in coreography for holding back

well, MOC, i have often argued that he WASN'T holding back against Luke, that Luke beat him at his prime, and that Luke was simply mistaken when he remembered the battle. So I would like to agree with you.

However, when stacked with the rest of Vader's body of work, it seems like more of a plothole if luke was able to defeat Vader UNLESS vader was holding back, and the quote (granted, from an IN-UNIVERSE, non-omniscient source) seems to tie up that plothole nicely.

Yeah seriously, talk about a huge f*ck-up. 2 BBY Vader's fight with Marek is full of fast sabers swings and giant displays of Force powers. 6 years later his greatest feat in a fight with a neophyte is to huck his saber at a railing?

due to the inconsistencies i am using what came first and thats the film...plus even if vader was holding back...so was luke..so back to square one

actually.. what came latest would be the MOST canon. That's how it works. But as it is, nothing in the novels on the subject contradicts the movies, so they are both canon.

To be honest though, i'm not sure what side of the issue you are on at this point. What you just posted seems to contradict what you posted earlier.

Luke wasn't holding back after Vader threatened his sister, we know this for sure.

Vader may have been holding back, Luke thought he was, but that isn't necessarily true, you are free to have an opinion on it.

Where is the discrepency?

ok first of all the more media of star wars that lucas sells to others, the more plotholes introduced like there are contradictions in the clone wars animated series that disregard the exposition in AOTC.

however the descrepancy is as follows....
many argue that luke was not on par with vader in ROTJ because he was said to have been holding back against luke...

several things contradict this argumentation

1) luke was holding back also
2)its illogical that vader would hold back once luke got serious because who is going to let someone chop thier arm off?
3) the fact that luke didnt kill him when he could've is even more evidence of luke holding back
4) "if you will not fight then you will meet your destiny" says vader, those dont sound like the words of someone holding back
5) after saying the above quote vader telekenetically launches his own saber AT LUKE'S HEAD! thats not a move that someone holding back would use because if that had connected then luke wouldve died.
6) Lets be logical here (stupid TPM Bio-mumbo jumbo aside) WHY WOULD PALPATINE BE SO EAGER TO REPLACE VADER WITH SOMEONE WHO WHEN THEY GOT SERIOUS COULD CRUSH HIM? Midichlorians or not if vader was such a BMF why throw him away for someone less?

and last but not least
7) Yoda something along the lines of "know that which you need you already do" on his deathbed...essentially admitting he was ready to face vader in ROTJ, now yoda, a man who knew what vader was truly capable of, couldve continued to train luke as a force ghost if luke wasnt ready, so the final questions is, WHY WOULD YODA SEND LUKE TO FIGHT VADER IF HE HAD NO CHANCE OF WINNING? the fact that yoda sent him was proof he could win, we can tell that yoda wouldnt send the weak to figh the strong because he wouldnt send obi wan to fight palpatine. so all this concluded luke is on par with if not above,,,vader in ROTJ....

and as a side note luke when looking back on it could have just been saying it out of humility because afterall who in this world ever thinks they can beat thier own dad in a serious fight?

Your an idiot, 6 years earlier he was tearing down massive pillars and crushing his enemies(enemies that ripped entire space station apart) with utter ease and your trying to argue that vader was going all out in this fight unleashing every thing he has?

Your a man of crap.

Originally posted by Man of Christ


1) luke was holding back also



Until Vader threatened his sister, then he was definitly going all out.



He did. He just kinda lay there with his arm up while luke hit the sword twice, and then his arm. Kinda the epitome of quitting.



Luke didn't kill a helpless foe because he was a jedi. He even said so. That one isn't open for any form of debate. no other reason. That's not called holding back, that is called self-control.



This i could agree with. I already said that we share the opinion that Vader wasn't holding back. But while canon doesn't settle the issue, there is definitly a strong case for the alternative, that he was holding back, as well.


same response as 4.



Because Palpatine was going to live forever. He was the first Sith, we think, since Bane, to figure out essence transfer, and therefore needed a younger apprentice. Sidious was saying SCREW the rule of 2, and was in the business for a better apprentice.


Yoda sent him cause he died. That one is the easiest point to refute. Yoda told him he knew what he had to know, cause what else was he going to say? "You are screwed. But i'm dying. Tough."

Besides that: Luke obviously WASN'T ready, because he had no idea how to defend against force lightning, something that if Yoda had been serious about Luke defeating the empire, he would have taught him.



Well, he didn't say it. It was his innermost thought: somthing along the lines of "looking back, Luke knew that Vader had spared him. Luke knew he could never have won against his father had his father wanted him dead. "

that is a rough paraphrase, but it captures the idea.


And wolfman, be nice!

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Your an idiot, 6 years earlier he was tearing down massive pillars and crushing his enemies(enemies that ripped entire space station apart) with utter ease and your trying to argue that vader was going all out in this fight unleashing every thing he has?

Your a man of crap.

then explain palpatines eagerness to throw him away at that time?
and insulting my religion is intolerance, something you shouldnt be doing, its fair to disagree with my point but dont call me an idiot atall thats is despicable and a violation of the terms of use....read your contract

How is calling you a man of crap insulting your religion? Are you an extremist?


Firstly palpatine wanted to pick luke because at that time he was potentially stronger than vader, hell it happend in TFU between marek and vader as well.
Just because he chose 2 people, 1 stronger than vader and one potentially stronger does not mean vader is weak as your trying to imply.

Oh and lastly, if you so religious what are you doing wasting your time here? Aren't you suppose to indoctrinate other people in real life and preach how "awesome" god is?

Originally posted by truejedi
Until Vader threatened his sister, then he was definitly going all out.



He did. He just kinda lay there with his arm up while luke hit the sword twice, and then his arm. Kinda the epitome of quitting.



Luke didn't kill a helpless foe because he was a jedi. He even said so. That one isn't open for any form of debate. no other reason. That's not called holding back, that is called self-control.



This i could agree with. I already said that we share the opinion that Vader wasn't holding back. But while canon doesn't settle the issue, there is definitly a strong case for the alternative, that he was holding back, as well.


same response as 4.



Because Palpatine was going to live forever. He was the first Sith, we think, since Bane, to figure out essence transfer, and therefore needed a younger apprentice. Sidious was saying SCREW the rule of 2, and was in the business for a better apprentice.


Yoda sent him cause he died. That one is the easiest point to refute. Yoda told him he knew what he had to know, cause what else was he going to say? "You are screwed. But i'm dying. Tough."

Besides that: Luke obviously WASN'T ready, because he had no idea how to defend against force lightning, something that if Yoda had been serious about Luke defeating the empire, he would have taught him.



Well, he didn't say it. It was his innermost thought: somthing along the lines of "looking back, Luke knew that Vader had spared him. Luke knew he could never have won against his father had his father wanted him dead. "

that is a rough paraphrase, but it captures the idea.


And wolfman, be nice!

1) killing unarmed opponents as being against the jedi code is such an inconsistency in the jedi code, cases in point, anakin beheading dooku, mace about to kill palpatine, the exile killing a handless traya....so i RESPECTFULLY (unlike boratborat) disagree that lukes refusal to kill vader is unrelated to whether or not he was goin all out

2) i disagree that vader was quitting, if you remember they were both using djem so which is pure offense with virtually zero defense, luke legitimately beat vader at his own game

3) Yoda could have continued to train luke as a force ghost much like quigon did for obi wan, so being dead is not much of a reason for yoda not to train luke if he wanted to.

4) we cannot rule out the possibility that luke may have known how to deflect it but threw his saber down in the heat of passion, but even so he obviously had surviving it down packed as he could still move after being shocked with a current so strong that it was visible

5) i am amiguous on the innermost though one so i will leave it alone untill futher notice,,,,but what about the rest of my explanation?

Originally posted by BoratBorat
How is calling you a man of crap insulting your religion? Are you an extremist?


Firstly palpatine wanted to pick luke because at that time he was potentially stronger than vader, hell it happend in TFU between marek and vader as well.
Just because he chose 2 people, 1 stronger than vader and one potentially stronger does not mean vader is weak as your trying to imply.

Oh and lastly, if you so religious what are you doing wasting your time here? Aren't you suppose to indoctrinate other people in real life and preach how "awesome" god is?

Palpatine only does the switching of apprentices when he has milked his current apprentice for all he is worth and the prospective is ready to defeat the current one....

case in point, in AOTC anakin had more POTENTIAL than dooku but wasnt more powerful than him until ROTS which is when palpatine chose to offer anakin the job......he didnt offer the job to him in AOTC....thus we can conclude that since palpatine offered luke the JOb in RoTJ that he was ready and above vader......

now to your more riddiculous point.....first of all it is not a sin to be on a forum but you would only know that if you read the Bible...
second of all....this is my spare time...i do evangelizing durring the day....so cease attacking me as i have done nothing wrong...i have respected you , and i deserve to be respected by you

Originally posted by Man of Christ

case in point, in AOTC anakin had more POTENTIAL than dooku but wasnt more powerful than him until ROTS which is when palpatine chose to offer anakin the job......he didnt offer the job to him in AOTC....thus we can conclude that since palpatine offered luke the JOb in RoTJ that he was ready and above vader...... Don't be foolish, first off why should he offer the job to anakin in AOTC? He needed dooku's charisma and used him to instigate the clone wars and giving anakin the job and killing dooku would be the very undoing of his plans and he would be sabotaging himself.

There were plenty of things that needed to be done with dooku before he could discard him, hell whats there to say sidious wouldn't have tried to recruit anakin during TPM as a child? Right, the thing that stopped him from doing that was his plans.

Sidious simply gave anakin the opportunity when the time was right, when everything was set in motion and that recruiting anakin wouldn't have sabotaged his own plans.

Think about it, if he recruited anakin and dooku ended up dead in AOTC, would the clone war started? Would it allow sidious to get a grip on the galaxy? It would undo or set back his plans by a very long time.

And lastly, prove vader wasn't holding back against luke, luke himself admitted vader was holding back when it came to the force, several years prior he went all out against marek and that fight was epic with massive pillars flying all over the place.

Vader may have been all out when it came to sabers, but he certainly refrained from attacking luke with the force which he, could have easily crushed luke.



Originally posted by Man of Christ


now to your more riddiculous point.....first of all it is not a sin to be on a forum but you would only know that if you read the Bible...
second of all....this is my spare time...i do evangelizing durring the day....so cease attacking me as i have done nothing wrong...i have respected you , and i deserve to be respected by you Fine, but don't get offended when i say i hate god and hate most christians and catholics, you love god and want to spread his name im fine with that.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Don't be foolish, first off why should he offer the job to anakin in AOTC? He needed dooku's charisma and used him to instigate the clone wars and giving anakin the job and killing dooku would be the very undoing of his plans and he would be sabotaging himself.

There were plenty of things that needed to be done with dooku before he could discard him, hell whats there to say sidious wouldn't have tried to recruit anakin during TPM as a child? Right, the thing that stopped him from doing that was his plans.

Sidious simply gave anakin the opportunity when the time was right, when everything was set in motion and that recruiting anakin wouldn't have sabotaged his own plans.

Think about it, if he recruited anakin and dooku ended up dead in AOTC, would the clone war started? Would it allow sidious to get a grip on the galaxy? It would undo or set back his plans by a very long time.

And lastly, prove vader wasn't holding back against luke, luke himself admitted vader was holding back when it came to the force, several years prior he went all out against marek and that fight was epic with massive pillars flying all over the place.

Vader may have been all out when it came to sabers, but he certainly refrained from attacking luke with the force which he, could have easily crushed luke.



Fine, but don't get offended when i say i hate god and hate most christians and catholics, you love god and want to spread his name im fine with that.

1) your initial paragraph actually proves my point...hence the whole "milking him for all he is worth" which i said
2) the oppurtunity was rigth because luke was above vader which is why palpatine didnt come to luke in ESB
3) siddious didnt get anakin in TPM because the jedi had him, and if he so much as tried to offer anakin traning at that time that would uncover him as a sith
4) i wont blame you for the marek piece i will simply blame lucas who for the love of money has instituted many plotholes when he magically pluggs stuff in.....still it doesnt negate my initial point
5) who is to say luke couldnt have done likewise?

It is part of the Jedi code Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine Mac had vaapad flowing through him

Originally posted by Man of Christ
Palpatine only does the switching of apprentices when he has milked his current apprentice for all he is worth and the prospective is ready to defeat the current one....

case in point, in AOTC anakin had more POTENTIAL than dooku but wasnt more powerful than him until ROTS which is when palpatine chose to offer anakin the job......he didnt offer the job to him in AOTC....thus we can conclude that since palpatine offered luke the JOb in RoTJ that he was ready and above vader...... Actually, in a general line of thinking, it makes far more sense to grab them when they're young and foolish rather than wait for them to become wise and experienced. Palpatine got lucky with Dooku's idealism.

You're also thinking rather black and white here. Just because Palpatine chose Luke in RotJ doesn't mean Luke>Vader. A young and promising Force-sensitive, the son of the "Chosen One", has literally delivered himself to you. If Luke and Vader's potential were cars, Palpatine's utilitarian nature would recognize that Luke's 2005 Chrysler 300 Prototype was newer and better than Vader's 1981 Honda, all it needs is some final touch-ups and it's good to go driving down the Dark Side highway. And Luke's can me modified to be made even better, whereas Vader's car isn't capable of anything more. On top of that, stealing Luke's car seems so easy right now--why not make a go for it? And hey, if it turns out Luke's car would rather do plummeting off a cliff, Palpatine's still got Vader's Honda to get him from point A to B.

Originally posted by Samurai100
It is part of the Jedi code Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine Mac had vaapad flowing through him

but vapaad never tainted windu unlike sora and depa billaba

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) your initial paragraph actually proves my point...hence the whole "milking him for all he is worth" which i said
No it didn't and i refuted that and said WHY he didn't.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

2) the oppurtunity was rigth because luke was above vader which is why palpatine didnt come to luke in ESB
NO IT WASN'T. Prove luke is above vader in the force.

Palpatine DID come to luke in ESB moron, why did palpatine give the order to vader to capture him? Why did vader keep referring to luke as the emperors prize?

The emperor WANTED luke the moment he heard of him, even the fallible wookiepedia says your wrong.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

3) siddious didnt get anakin in TPM because the jedi had him, and if he so much as tried to offer anakin traning at that time that would uncover him as a sith
Thank you for pwning yourself, the jedi had him in AOTC and in ROTS anakin was WEARY of the jedi and the jedi was spread all over the galaxy which made it 10x easier for palpatine to manipulate anakin.

Your own words murdered you.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

4) i wont blame you for the marek piece i will simply blame lucas who for the love of money has instituted many plotholes when he magically pluggs stuff in.....still it doesnt negate my initial point
It does because canon > you, because canon facts > your twisted mind.

How is vader being a power house a plot hole? Sorry spud, canon is canon, canon > you, vader ,according to the almighty luke himself was holding back, vader,according to common sense and logic was holding back. Canon + common sense > you.


Originally posted by Man of Christ


5) who is to say luke couldnt have done likewise? Who is to say luke can rip massive pillars in ROTJ? He had trouble with rocks just a year prior, whose to say luke can pwn people that tore an entire space station apart like vader did?

If you can prove luke can do that, ill concede.

You obviously never played or read anything outside the movie which explains your sheer idiocy and sheer stubbornness to concede, but hey your a christian extremist so obviously now i understand why people like you don't know when to admit they are wrong and when to shut up.

You "sound" like a broken record, just shut up because you lost. Your a man of crap seriously.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
No it didn't and i refuted that and said WHY he didn't.

NO IT WASN'T. Prove luke is above vader in the force.

Palpatine DID come to luke in ESB moron, why did palpatine give the order to vader to capture him? Why did vader keep referring to luke as the emperors prize?

The emperor WANTED luke the moment he heard of him, even the fallible wookiepedia says your wrong.

Thank you for pwning yourself, the jedi had him in AOTC and in ROTS anakin was WEARY of the jedi and the jedi was spread all over the galaxy which made it 10x easier for palpatine to manipulate anakin.

Your own words murdered you.

It does because canon > you, because canon facts > your twisted mind.

How is vader being a power house a plot hole? Sorry spud, canon is canon, canon > you, vader ,according to the almighty luke himself was holding back, vader,according to common sense and logic was holding back. Canon + common sense > you.


Who is to say luke can rip massive pillars in ROTJ? He had trouble with rocks just a year prior, whose to say luke can pwn people that tore an entire space station apart like vader did?

If you can prove luke can do that, ill concede.

You obviously never played or read anything outside the movie which explains your sheer idiocy and sheer stubbornness to concede, but hey your a christian extremist so obviously now i understand why people like you don't know when to admit they are wrong and when to shut up.

You "sound" like a broken record, just shut up because you lost. Your a man of crap seriously.

1) what did i just say about respect? just because i disagree with you doesnt make me crap....you are entitled to your own opinion, as am i ...so cease the personal attacks
2) you seem to miss my point about when siddious chooses to take a new apprentice, he does so when the new one can overtake the old which is what he did with both anakin and luke, hence your statement does prove mine not disprove it
3) he never directly offered to replace vader with luke in ESB, he only did that in ROTJ, he from the words sounded more like he wanted to raise luke above vader but once he saw that luke wouldnt listen to vader he himself had to let luke prove himself above vader hence ready to take his place "your hate had made you powerful, now fulfill your destiny"
4)my own words didnt pwn me for 2 reasons
wanting someone and comming on to them personally are 2 diffrent things
also you seem to negelect that i could be BOTH that anakin was more mentally malliable,,,,in EP 3 AND he was at the point where he was superior to dookul.....you fail to present why these have to be mutually exclusive
5) george lucas is to be blamed because if you look at the fighting style of vader in games it is inconsistent with films as well as his movements but those are for out of universe reasons.
6) who is to say luke cant match vaders feats?....what im saying is there is no evidence either way
7) you shouldnt insult my religion, or my character, i have respected you and deserve the same respect and for you to attack somone who has respected you is reprehensible and something you shouldnt do.
8) for the record in the Bible in Proverbs 16:18 it says that pride commeth before the fall....so i am not arrogant as you say because i adhere to the scripture...and finally...this is a minor disagreement, not something meant to be won or loss....you are making this into a battle for reasons unneccesary

look i view you as a fellow human being not to be disrespected and i deserve the same of you

Originally posted by Man of Christ
look i view you as a fellow human being not to be disrespected and i deserve the same of you If you have to make a demand to someone to be respected, then you don't deserve it.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) what did i just say about respect? just because i disagree with you doesnt make me crap....you are entitled to your own opinion, as am i ...so cease the personal attacks.

The only time ill stop attacking you is when you shut the hell up.
Why should i when your wrong and won't shut the hell up?

Originally posted by Man of Christ

2) you seem to miss my point about when siddious chooses to take a new apprentice, he does so when the new one can overtake the old which is what he did with both anakin and luke, hence your statement does prove mine not disprove it
Yes it does idiot, you

Originally posted by Man of Christ

3) he never directly offered to replace vader with luke in ESB, he only did that in ROTJ, he from the words sounded more like he wanted to raise luke above vader but once he saw that luke wouldnt listen to vader he himself had to let luke prove himself above vader hence ready to take his place "your hate had made you powerful, now fulfill your destiny"
But he intended to replace vader with luke, sources confirmed he did the moment he heard of luke skywalker.

It doesn't matter if he sees luke listening to vader or not, he never intended for vader to raise him and always wanted to replace vader with luke. Don't be foolish.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

4)my own words didnt pwn me for 2 reasons
wanting someone and comming on to them personally are 2 diffrent things
What a way to try to divert the issue, the fact is he always wanted anakin to be his apprentice so once again you fail.
I said he wanted to recruit luke because of his potential you countered by saying anakin was weak in AOTC which is why sidious didn't try to recruit him, i countered by saying sidious needed dooku and can't replace him so he can instigate the clone wars and then i brought up how he could have recruited anakin in TPM if it didn't sabotage his plans and then you tell me he couldn't because the "jedi owned him".

I then tell you that the jedi still owned him during AOTC which is yet one more reason why he couldn't recruit anakin.

The point is your claiming that he only recruited people that were stronger than vader at that time, but i called out bullshit because luke was weak with the force at that time and palpatine recruited him only because of his untapped potential. Then you instigate this shit.



Originally posted by Man of Christ

also you seem to negelect that i could be BOTH that anakin was more mentally malliable,,,,in EP 3 AND he was at the point where he was superior to dookul.....you fail to present why these have to be mutually exclusive
Your rational for sidious not wanting to offer anakin the job in AOTC was because anakin couldn't defeat dooku and was still relatively weak which is bull, i simply stated why sidious couldn't recruit anakin so early despite the incredible potential he had.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

5) george lucas is to be blamed because if you look at the fighting style of vader in games it is inconsistent with films as well as his movements but those are for out of universe reasons.
How is it inconsistent? Hell if you want to get technical i can argue the fighting style of vader in TESB and ANH is inconsistent because he fights so slowly in ANH against a obi wan, a seasoned jedi and hes far more acrobatic against luke in the next film.

Let me ask you one thing, when was vader in any real danger in the films? Other than the final blows luke gave to vader in ROTJ?

The answer? He held back most of the time, there was nothing for vader to tear apart from the walls and crush obi wan, he wasn't trying to kill luke in TESB and he wasn't going all out in ROTJ with the force.

Lukes fighting style is ALSO inconsistent by your logic, as he swings his lightsaber like a moron but in the EU he was such a badass.

Mace windu must also be inconsistent because he was so slow against sidious in ROTS yet the EU showed mace being an incredibly powerful duelist.

Hell the whole of EU must be inconsistent because force storms were never shown in the movie, force drains must also be inconsistent because the movies only showed TK and lightning.

Do you now realize how much of an idiot you are?

Originally posted by Man of Christ

6) who is to say luke cant match vaders feats?....what im saying is there is no evidence either way
Good lord are you an idiot with low IQ? No evidence? Hello? Did you play TFU? Did you even read the EU?

Who is to say luke can match vaders feats? Im asking you to prove it and you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence.

There's plenty of proof of vaders force prowess on youtube, wookiepedia, games and novels but i am NOT going to spoon feed you.

You made the claim luke is superior to vader in the force in ROTJ, you prove it.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

7) you shouldnt insult my religion, or my character, i have respected you and deserve the same respect and for you to attack somone who has respected you is reprehensible and something you shouldnt do.
You don't deserve respect, you earn it and until you shut the hell up and admit your wrong, i am not going to respect you.

And when did i ever insult your religion? I just told you to go spread your indoctrination elsewhere, i never said christianity is bullshit so learn to read dick head.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

8) for the record in the Bible in Proverbs 16:18 it says that pride commeth before the fall....so i am not arrogant as you say because i adhere to the scripture...and finally...this is a minor disagreement, not something meant to be won or loss....you are making this into a battle for reasons unneccesary Good lord don't being the bible into this, THATS unneccesary.

And don't give me the crap that your following the bible, because if you did you would support communism, you would support geonocide, murder and slavery.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

look i view you as a fellow human being not to be disrespected and i deserve the same of you Then admit your wrong and you get my respect.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you have to make a demand to someone to be respected, then you don't deserve it.

women had to demand a mans respect in the workplace,,,,does that mean they didnt deserve it?.........minorties had to do likewise....does that mean they didnt deserve respect?

They earned it... unlike you.

So we can't insult your religion because that would be intolerant, even though religion itself is one of the main causes for intolerance.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you have to make a demand to someone to be respected, then you don't deserve it.

Well, he's just saying what the bible is saying and you should listen to it because the bible isn't filled with guidelines you know. Or is it?

Now Man Of Christ, couldn't you figure out that respecting eachother is important without reading the bible or following a religion? I'm not being offensive by the way, I'm being curious as to why most humans don't have the common sense to know right from wrong and need to be spoon fed by religion for this (which isn't exactly bulletproof either).

That is because most people in christianity are so damn gullible and can't think for themselves.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Why should i when your wrong and won't shut the hell up?

But he intended to replace vader with luke, sources confirmed he did the moment he heard of luke skywalker.

It doesn't matter if he sees luke listening to vader or not, he never intended for vader to raise him and always wanted to replace vader with luke. Don't be foolish.
What a way to try to divert the issue, the fact is he always wanted anakin to be his apprentice so once again you fail.
I said he wanted to recruit luke because of his potential you countered by saying anakin was weak in AOTC which is why sidious didn't try to recruit him, i countered by saying sidious needed dooku and can't replace him so he can instigate the clone wars and then i brought up how he could have recruited anakin in TPM if it didn't sabotage his plans and then you tell me he couldn't because the "jedi owned him".

I then tell you that the jedi still owned him during AOTC which is yet one more reason why he couldn't recruit anakin.

The point is your claiming that he only recruited people that were stronger than vader at that time, but i called out bullshit because luke was weak with the force at that time and palpatine recruited him only because of his untapped potential. Then you instigate this shit.



Your rational for sidious not wanting to offer anakin the job in AOTC was because anakin couldn't defeat dooku and was still relatively weak which is bull, i simply stated why sidious couldn't recruit anakin so early despite the incredible potential he had.

How is it inconsistent? Hell if you want to get technical i can argue the fighting style of vader in TESB and ANH is inconsistent because he fights so slowly in ANH against a obi wan, a seasoned jedi and hes far more acrobatic against luke in the next film.

Let me ask you one thing, when was vader in any real danger in the films? Other than the final blows luke gave to vader in ROTJ?

The answer? He held back most of the time, there was nothing for vader to tear apart from the walls and crush obi wan, he wasn't trying to kill luke in TESB and he wasn't going all out in ROTJ with the force.

Lukes fighting style is ALSO inconsistent by your logic, as he swings his lightsaber like a moron but in the EU he was such a badass.

Mace windu must also be inconsistent because he was so slow against sidious in ROTS yet the EU showed mace being an incredibly powerful duelist.

Hell the whole of EU must be inconsistent because force storms were never shown in the movie, force drains must also be inconsistent because the movies only showed TK and lightning.

Do you now realize how much of an idiot you are?

Good lord are you an idiot with low IQ? No evidence? Hello? Did you play TFU? Did you even read the EU?

Who is to say luke can match vaders feats? Im asking you to prove it and you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence.

There's plenty of proof of vaders force prowess on youtube, wookiepedia, games and novels but i am NOT going to spoon feed you.

You made the claim luke is superior to vader in the force in ROTJ, you prove it.
You don't deserve respect, you earn it and until you shut the hell up and admit your wrong, i am not going to respect you.

And when did i ever insult your religion? I just told you to go spread your indoctrination elsewhere, i never said christianity is bullshit so learn to read dick head.
Good lord don't being the bible into this, THATS unneccesary.

And don't give me the crap that your following the bible, because if you did you would support communism, you would support geonocide, murder and slavery.
Then admit your wrong and you get my respect.

when it comes to the actual arguments regarding star wars again you fail to understand that this isnt a contest and that as equals we should just agree to disagree like repsonsible adults...not like children who need to feel like they won a petty disagreement.

second you did insult my religion when you argued that christian extremists cannot admit when they are wrong....i brough in the scripture to show that even to the christian extremists admittting when you are wrong is MANDATED not DISCOURAGED in christianity.

third of all you called me a man of crap when my screen name is man of christ....a 4 year old could detect that you intened to take a stab at my religion.

christianity doesnt promote genocide and slavery but you are unfamiliar with the bible so im not suprised you think so
and 2 last things.....

1) to say that someone only deserves to be respected when they agree with you is to say that you dont believe everyone is equal...and that is a mentality that has led to racism and sexism which i am sure that you do not want to be associated with.

2) telling me to shut the H*ll up and calling me a D*(K head as you just did are a violation of the terms of use of this forum and someothing you shouldnt be doing

Originally posted by BoratBorat
They earned it... unlike you.

no one should have to earn respect when all are equal

Originally posted by BoratBorat
That is because most people in christianity are so damn gullible and can't think for themselves.

martin luther king? a christian, thomas aquinas? a chirstian.....Jfk a christian....all deep thinkers and individuals who impacted the world....and lets not forget FDR

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So we can't insult your religion because that would be intolerant, even though religion itself is one of the main causes for intolerance.



Well, he's just saying what the bible is saying and you should listen to it because the bible isn't filled with guidelines you know. Or is it?

Now Man Of Christ, couldn't you figure out that respecting eachother is important without reading the bible or following a religion? I'm not being offensive by the way, I'm being curious as to why most humans don't have the common sense to know right from wrong and need to be spoon fed by religion for this (which isn't exactly bulletproof either).

lets be clear....religion isnt the root of intolerance but the MISAPLICATION OF RELIGION THAT LEADS TO INTOLERANCE

Jesus said Love thy nieghbor as thyself...which is quite the opposite of intolerance

Originally posted by Man of Christ

third of all you called me a man of crap when my screen name is man of christ....a 4 year old could detect that you intened to take a stab at my religion.

He didn't take a stab at your religion... That's what you made of it. He meant that you were full of crap.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He didn't take a stab at your religion... That's what you made of it. He meant that you were full of crap.

then he could have said i am full of crap but to make it sound nearly identical to my screen name is evident that he didn intend to insult my religion, espcecially when you put it in the context of the other things he has said about christians

Originally posted by Man of Christ
no one should have to earn respect when all are equal

Except God, Christ or the Pope... They are just a little more equal than us right?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Except God, Christ or the Pope... They are just a little more equal than us right?

i dont see quite what you are saying here beccause they are all intrinsically respected of many....God shoudnt have to earn respect neither should anyone else.....please elaborate what you mean here

to get this a little back on track, I say Anakin. I mean, Luke's barely trained around ROTJ, and Anakin was "properly" trained. And Anakin held his own against Dooku, and Vader in ROTJ was holding back... so.. yeah.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
when it comes to the actual arguments regarding star wars again you fail to understand that this isnt a contest and that as equals we should just agree to disagree like repsonsible adults...not like children who need to feel like they won a petty disagreement. Maybe i just went a little too far.. sometimes i just get too caught up and forget that arguing about fiction is pointless.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

second you did insult my religion when you argued that christian extremists cannot admit when they are wrong....
That i will admit im wrong but Thank god your not a muslim or i would have found a bomb in my drawer.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

i brough in the scripture to show that even to the christian extremists admittting when you are wrong is MANDATED not DISCOURAGED in christianity. Do you really need to bring the scriptures into a childish debate? Look for my sake just leave religion out of the picture.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

third of all you called me a man of crap when my screen name is man of christ....a 4 year old could detect that you intened to take a stab at my religion. Wtf, when i said your a man of "crap" i was referring to you being full of shit, that was never an attack on god, jesus or christianity.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

christianity doesnt promote genocide and slavery but you are unfamiliar with the bible so im not suprised you think so
and 2 last things.....
I'm going to let this one pass, its unfair to attack the bible anyways but i am familiar with it, not as familiar as you are with it.

I WAS a catholic until i recently renounced my faith in god, you have no idea of the amount of bullshit i have seen in my own church, in my own cell group and the shit they try to spew, they give all catholics and christians a bad name and think their opinions are universal fact.

It was because of them i started to hate god and hate religion, im sorry if you felt offended when i called you "man of crap" but as i said earlier, that was calling you out on being full of rubbish, not an attack on god.

I know not everyone is perfect but they act like they are perfect beings and treat their opinions as universal fact, because of them i despise the idea of a god and all other christians and religions.


Originally posted by Man of Christ

1) to say that someone only deserves to be respected when they agree with you is to say that you dont believe everyone is equal...and that is a mentality that has led to racism and sexism which i am sure that you do not want to be associated with.

2) telling me to shut the H*ll up and calling me a D*(K head as you just did are a violation of the terms of use of this forum and someothing you shouldnt be doing Im sorry so just forget it.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
to get this a little back on track, I say Anakin. I mean, Luke's barely trained around ROTJ, and Anakin was "properly" trained. And Anakin held his own against Dooku, and Vader in ROTJ was holding back... so.. yeah.

can we JUST please get back on topic? I barely go on the SW forums, and I run into this.

Nobody takes the SW forums seriously, dont like what your seeing then bugger off.

Its better to derail the topic a little bit to understand each other a little bit more than attack each other when we disagree.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Nobody takes the SW forums seriously, dont like what your seeing then bugger off.

Its better to derail the topic a little bit to understand each other a little bit more than attack each other when we disagree.

I hang around here sometimes, so I kinda know the drill. I was just trying to get it a little back on topic. it's a little hard to be sarcastic online, sorry.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Maybe i just went a little too far.. sometimes i just get too caught up and forget that arguing about fiction is pointless.
That i will admit im wrong but Thank god your not a muslim or i would have found a bomb in my drawer.
Do you really need to bring the scriptures into a childish debate? Look for my sake just leave religion out of the picture.
Wtf, when i said your a man of "crap" i was referring to you being full of shit, that was never an attack on god, jesus or christianity.

I'm going to let this one pass, its unfair to attack the bible anyways but i am familiar with it, not as familiar as you are with it.

I WAS a catholic until i recently renounced my faith in god, you have no idea of the amount of bullshit i have seen in my own church, in my own cell group and the shit they try to spew, they give all catholics and christians a bad name and think their opinions are universal fact.

It was because of them i started to hate god and hate religion, im sorry if you felt offended when i called you "man of crap" but as i said earlier, that was calling you out on being full of rubbish, not an attack on god.

I know not everyone is perfect but they act like they are perfect beings and treat their opinions as universal fact, because of them i despise the idea of a god and all other christians and religions.


Im sorry so just forget it.

understood...as a side note i only brought in scripture because you were making statements about Christian extremists that were paradoxical......and lastly i am a baptist cleric who has seen my fair share of church hypocrisy as well....being a man who went to catholics schools i share in your dissilussionment with the catholic church.....but overall.....i respect you and hope we can move forward from this

Originally posted by Man of Christ
lets be clear....religion isnt the root of intolerance but the MISAPLICATION OF RELIGION THAT LEADS TO INTOLERANCE

Jesus said Love thy nieghbor as thyself...which is quite the opposite of intolerance

Exactly, and there have been A LOT of misapplications of religion, just read some history and you'll come across them. So if there was never a Religion in the first place, there would have never been misapplications.

So to what I was saying earlier, it's not because Jesus said that you should 'love thy neighbour' aka 'respect eachother', that you shouldn't have figured that out for yourself.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
then he could have said i am full of crap but to make it sound nearly identical to my screen name is evident that he didn intend to insult my religion, espcecially when you put it in the context of the other things he has said about christians

If I'm reading correctly, he said that after you went all touchy about it.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i dont see quite what you are saying here beccause they are all intrinsically respected of many....God shoudnt have to earn respect neither should anyone else.....please elaborate what you mean here

I'm comparing it to Communism.

In my opinion, Religion is highly unnecessary. Like I said before, people should learn to think for themselves and not let some Bible or Christ do the thinking for them.

No problem, but you win the debate, i don't want to argue about stuff that isn't going to change our lives.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Exactly, and there have been A LOT of misapplications of religion, just read some history and you'll come across them. So if there was never a Religion in the first place, there would have never been misapplications.

So to what I was saying earlier, it's not because Jesus said that you should 'love thy neighbour' aka 'respect eachother', that you shouldn't have figured that out for yourself.



If I'm reading correctly, he said that after you went all touchy about it.



I'm comparing it to Communism.

In my opinion, Religion is highly unnecessary. Like I said before, people should learn to think for themselves and not let some Bible or Christ do the thinking for them.


we are competitive by our very nature....even if we didnt have religion we would still have something to fight about...im sure you have known a few atheists to be contentious as well....plus i think the social commentary behind the 2 part atheist episode in south park eloquently explains what i am trying to say....you know the episode where Dawkings gets involved with mr garrison...even though the nation became filled with atheists they still found something to fight over...so its not religion that causes these problems

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I hang around here sometimes, so I kinda know the drill. I was just trying to get it a little back on topic. it's a little hard to be sarcastic online, sorry.

Nice try, but many have done that and failed.

By the way, sarcasm is sexy, but the effect it has online just isn't the same as in rl.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Nice try, but many have done that and failed.

By the way, sarcasm is sexy, but the effect it has online just isn't the same as in rl.

thanks, I think.

I agree - it just isn't the same. there's no apparent stress and expression on online conversations. Oh well. I think I'm just going to watch read you guys talk.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
we are competitive by our very nature....even if we didnt have religion we would still have something to fight about...im sure you have known a few atheists to be contentious as well....plus i think the social commentary behind the 2 part atheist episode in south park eloquently explains what i am trying to say....you know the episode where Dawkings gets involved with mr garrison...even though the nation became filled with atheists they still found something to fight over...so its not religion that causes these problems

There are other more greater problems like the need for possession, but suicide bombers for example wouldn't do something like that if their faith hadn't totally brainwashed them by promising them a great afterlife.

My question still remains though, do we really need the Bible to tell us what to do?

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
thanks, I think.

I agree - it just isn't the same. there's no apparent stress and expression on online conversations. Oh well. I think I'm just going to watch read you guys talk.

Oh, but we're boring. Best cure for insomnia ever.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Oh, but we're boring. Best cure for insomnia ever.

it's almost midnight here, so i guess, if what you're saying is true, then you guys can totally help.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
There are other more greater problems like the need for possession, but suicide bombers for example wouldn't do something like that if their faith hadn't totally brainwashed them by promising them a great afterlife.

My question still remains though, do we really need the Bible to tell us what to do?

yes but there are equally devastating motives that are non religous, like when native american were wipped out, it wasnt because of religous differences...they just wanted out land, and look what happened...i would say small pox to us was just as devastating at least.

and as a response to your last question....as a christian my answer would be yes, and this is due to my beliefs...which are that without the bible we can live a good life but being a good person doesnt equate to being right with God....again this is not be trying to trash what you believe or dont believe its what i believ.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
it's almost midnight here, so i guess, if what you're saying is true, then you guys can totally help.

Yeah I know, but the activity around this hour is too low to help you right now.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yeah I know, but the activity around this hour is too low to help you right now. 3:40 i nthe afternoon here, /flex

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yeah I know, but the activity around this hour is too low to help you right now.

I know, but I'm being entertained. I like reading stuff like what you and Man of Christ are talking about right now. don't ask why - because I don't know, either.

Originally posted by mattatom
3:40 i nthe afternoon here, /flex

My hero!!

Aren't you supposed to be in Canada?

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I know, but I'm being entertained. I like reading stuff like what you and Man of Christ are talking about right now. don't ask why - because I don't know, either.

Well, look forward to the moment I really try to entertain you then! Yeah, that sounded less perverted in my mind.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC

Well, look forward to the moment I really try to entertain you then! Yeah, that sounded less perverted in my mind.

I can't wait, I think.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
yes but there are equally devastating motives that are non religous, like when native american were wipped out, it wasnt because of religous differences...they just wanted out land, and look what happened...i would say small pox to us was just as devastating at least.

and as a response to your last question....as a christian my answer would be yes, and this is due to my beliefs...which are that without the bible we can live a good life but being a good person doesnt equate to being right with God....again this is not be trying to trash what you believe or dont believe its what i believ.

I totally overlooked this...

Okay, I still don't know why people believe there is a God that has the ability to say you're a good person or not. In a way, I am more free because I don't have to think about it. I just try to live a good life while being a good person by looking out for myself while also considering other people.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I can't wait, I think.

Me neither!! ... w8wut

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I totally overlooked this...

Me neither!! ... w8wut

I was wondering a little why you didn't answer that one - i was waiting for it.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I was wondering a little why you didn't answer that one - i was waiting for it.

It was actually your fault...

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
It was actually your fault...

I should have called you on it.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I should have called you on it.

Yes, yes you should have. Don't forget it next time or I'll post an angry smiley face.

Now, shouldn't you be going to sleep yet?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yes, yes you should have. Don't forget it next time or I'll post an angry smiley face.

Now, shouldn't you be going to sleep yet?
no, not the angry smiley face, that scares me!

Yeah, I know. Classes start tomorrow, darnit. Yeah, probably should go to bed. Good night people who care... and good night, slash. well, technically morning, but...

I'm just gonna go to bed now.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
no, not the angry smiley face, that scares me!

Yeah, I know. Classes start tomorrow, darnit. Yeah, probably should go to bed. Good night people who care... and good night, slash. well, technically morning, but...

I'm just gonna go to bed now.

Classes have already started for me, but I barely have any so I can't complain. Anyways, good night hun. x

good grief people. I leave for what i think is the middle of the night, and come back to 2 pages of comments? hardcore ya'all.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Anakin had 10 years under an order that was 20,000+ years old, was at its prime, and under Obi Wan Kenobi, one of the greatest jedi of all time.

But then again, apparently Luke by DE had surpassed ROTS Anakin, so maybe Luke is just a very fast learner.


What, Yoda and Obi-wan are now unprofessional? I think that Luke would put up a good fight, if not win. I mean he was trained by YODA and Obi Wan I find your argument immaterial.

Originally posted by truejedi
good grief people. I leave for what i think is the middle of the night, and come back to 2 pages of comments? hardcore ya'all.

That's only for a small bit my fault.

...now to your more riddiculous point.....first of all it is not a sin to be on a forum but you would only know that if you read the Bible...
second of all....this is my spare time...i do evangelizing durring the day....so cease attacking me as i have done nothing wrong...i have respected you , and i deserve to be respected by you

You are correct sir.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you have to make a demand to someone to be respected, then you don't deserve it.

Didn't seem like a demand to me, simply a reasonable statement.

Adults talking about a thirty year old franchise that caters to prepubescent children. Got it.


No, a four year old could not tell that, because that is absolute bullshiit. The jab was a play on your name, in the same way that I might call Gideon "Gaydeon," Slash KMC "Gay KMC," or TrueJedi... wait for it... "stoopidJedi."

That the portion of your name that was mutated in the service of humor is a pillar of your faith has nothing to do with prejudice and everything to do with that higher calling: wordplay.


"Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)"

Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14

"You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new."

Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9

""Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "

Genesis 9:25-27

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever."
Exodus 21:2-6 NLT


w8wut?
Premise: If someone is equal, then they deserve to be respected.
Contrapositive: If someone is not equal, then they do not deserve to be respected.
Premise: Everyone is equal
Conclusion: Everyone deserves to be respected.
You're saying that Stalin (dodged a Godwin there!) deserves to be respected the same as Ghandi? Ghandi is equal to one of the most oppressive dictators in all of history?




Slash: Religion is the cause of a lot of destructive competition.
You: But non-religious people are competitive!
=
Slash: Flamethrowers start fires.
You: But people without flamethrowers start fires too!


Religion, at least in the totalitarian form that figures so prominently in the history of civilization, is necessarily contentious. Absolutism tends to lean that way.



http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/Dr_Zoidberg71/thePoint.jpg



1. Yes it was.
2. For the love of baby Yahwe Jr. man! Spellcheck!

You seem to be using words of some kind...
Am I wrong in this interpretation of the collection of symbols reproduced above?

Ell-Ohh-Ell

Nemesis, I am impressed.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
TrueJedi... wait for it... "stoopidJedi."



oh the hurt. Oh the unimaginable pain. Red, you have cut me to the quick.

and also: one thought on your verses: you used those to say the Bible supports slavery and genocide. The word supports is important there, because you have to remember that the Bible is actually addressing Societal realism. It doesn't support slavery in a way that PROMOTES it, it merely makes laws on what was already a societal issue.

Not disagreeing with your verses, but merely with the strictest definition of the word supports.

For instance, the U.S. government doesn't SUPPORT religion, but DOES set limits and regulations on its practice, in order to maintain 2 parts of the constitution: Freedom of Religion, and Seperation of Church and state.


lol, you got that, you BIG DUMB NEMESIS!?!?

Your below-standard available intelligence (which I can only hypothesize is the origin of the stench emanating from the posterior that you use for a face) has led you to two mistakes (if not moar).

The first is one of omission (unintentional I'm sure). You have not explained how Exodus:34 11-14 (which prohibits the thought of negotiation with the victims) or Lev:26 7-9 (assuring overwhelming military slaughters) is outside of even the strictest definition of the word "support." As far as I'm aware, that passage is an order originating from Yahwe himself! He is not merely regulating the genocide of the aborigines, he is mandating it.

The second is of selective shortsightedness on the issue of slavery. These two passages (the later two I used) can only be seen as an endorsement of slavery. Genesis 9:25-27 wills the subjugation and enslavement of the Canaanites. From free men the bible instructs the formation of slaves. Moreover, Exodus 21:2-6 erects a system exquisitely designed to continue an individual's enslavement. What man could abandon his wife and family to continued bondage while he was released? By keeping the women and children bound to the master, so too is the male trapped. While the bible here does not establish the slave dynamic (that is done elsewhere ) it certainly legitimizes and preserves it.


These all look appropriate.

And about your for instance- I would be entirely comfortable with labeling the federal government's treatment of religion as "support." Churches are granted tax-exempt status, unique legal protections, as well as unmatched interaction with both personal and public legal matters in the form of marriage (which is both a tax and legal protection). What the federal government cannot do is endorse a religion you big dummy.

Besides, there exist books and creeds that condemn all dancing as the devil's work. As long as the bible stays away from regulating the dancing of animated fruit (about which there is an unusually low number of references in that text, even in the gospel according to Luke disclaimer: I have no flash player so I haven't seen the video) then we're cool.

Really? Tell me which part of the francise caters to prepubescent children? Aside from the SW Christmas special of 1978, everything else seems pretty much PG-13. I agree there is a lack of blood but really, prepubescent?

Somebody is getting butthurt.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Somebody is getting butthurt.
http://www.freewebs.com/newimperialclan/ShutUpBitch.jpg

Oh no the world hates me now!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Really? Tell me which part of the francise caters to prepubescent children? Aside from the SW Christmas special of 1978, everything else seems pretty much PG-13. I agree there is a lack of blood but really, prepubescent? You're right. Aside from Star Wars: Ewoks, Star Wars: Droids, Gungans, all of Episode I, the Clone Wars, and the Holiday Special, the franchise is full of adult-themed dismemberment, Satanic rituals, and blood orgies.


And for the love of Christ Cookies, Red, go easy on the poor boy. He's only a Christian after all.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're right. Aside from Star Wars: Ewoks, Star Wars: Droids, Gungans, all of Episode I, the Clone Wars, and the Holiday Special, the franchise is full of adult-themed dismemberment, Satanic rituals, and blood orgies.


And for the love of Christ Cookies, Red, go easy on the poor boy. He's only a Christian after all.

His implication was that the franchise as a whole caters to prepubescent children. You've mentioned a fraction of the entire franchise.

Go lick some balls... scumbag!!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His implication was that the franchise as a whole caters to prepubescent children. You've mentioned a fraction of the entire franchise. But when it comes to the audience that is the wider public (movie-goers, casual watchers, television audiences) those fractions make up a large portion of the public face of Star Wars. Most off-hand references tend still towards Vader, and the Death Star, and the Force etc., but 1/3 of the entire billions-of-dollars live-action movies are childish and silly. The entire Clone Wars project (sans the 2002 animation) is marketed towards die-harders like us, or the young.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But when it comes to the audience that is the wider public (movie-goers, casual watchers, television audiences) those fractions make up a large portion of the public face of Star Wars. Most off-hand references tend still towards Vader, and the Death Star, and the Force etc., but 1/3 of the entire billions-of-dollars live-action movies are childish and silly. The entire Clone Wars project (sans the 2002 animation) is marketed towards die-harders like us, or the young.

I don't think the movies or the books are suited for kids. Most of the crap may be childish and silly by your standards as an adult, but that doesn't imply that children dominate the Star Wars fan base. Hell, even the Clone Wars cartoons are questionable.

Ugh, no it's for children. Perhaps not prepubescent ones like Ivalice said, but it's certainly not aimed at adults.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ugh, no it's for children. Perhaps not prepubescent ones like Ivalice said, but it's certainly not aimed at adults.

I never claimed it was aimed at adults, just not prepubescents

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

And for the love of Christ Cookies, Red, go easy on the poor boy. He's only a Christian after all.

wow.

For the record, I am issuing an official warning to BoratBorat for his relentless and entirely pointless insults toward Man of Christ. There was entirely no need for your behavior. If you disagree with him, say so without calling him an idiot. It just makes you look bad and gives me reason to tell you so.

Carry on, everyone. I personally think Anakin could take Luke quite easily...

Well at least some of the buttons still work

Originally posted by REXXXX
For the record, I am issuing an official warning to BoratBorat for his relentless and entirely pointless insults toward Man of Christ. There was entirely no need for your behavior. If you disagree with him, say so without calling him an idiot. It just makes you look bad and gives me reason to tell you so.

You DO realize i apologized to him right? Or did you ignore that part on purpose?

But thanks for a warning than a ban, your not as obnoxious as peach.