ROTS Obi Wan vs AOTC Obi Wan and Anakin

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Hewhoknowsall
Setting: Same place that they dueled Dooku in AOTC

Rules: None

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

mattatom
Duo after a duel lasting a millenia.
Duo
I'd go for the duo here.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
...2?

DarthDaniel1001
Episode 3 Obi-Wan wins here. He owned DS Anakin who was MUCH stronger then Count Dooku, who defeated the duo here. And he killed Grievous, who would have also beaten Episode 2 Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Episode 3 Obi-Wan wins here. He owned DS Anakin who was MUCH stronger then Count Dooku, who defeated the duo here. And he killed Grievous, who would have also beaten Episode 2 Obi-Wan and Anakin. Sadly, no. He didn't "own" Anakin at all. He was being pushed back and back and got lucky that Anakin chose to do a stupid jump dues to not thinking clearly.

And as I recall, he didn't kill GG with a saber, but with a blaster. Yes he disarmed him... twice, but that's not how he met his end.

AOTC OB1 is only 3 years behind his ROTS so he's rather proficient in the same form. Adding in Anakin, who did much better against Dooku than OB1 in AoTC, is just going to be too much for RoTS OB1.

truejedi
but he did win the duel against Anakin if I remember correctly.

Seriously, did you go read Chapt 7 of ROTS. If you don't think better of obi after that, i don't know what else to say to ya . ( =

Darth Subjekt
Ok, when Anakin wasn't in his normal mind state, which was the cause of his loss. Had he been, as people refer to as, in the zone, he would have mauled OB1 and it would have been game over. Plus... with the story written in reverse, they didn't have much choice other than to do it that way. erm

Did I read it? Why, it said, "OB1 proceeds to PWN DS Anakin!" No, I don't think so.

Lord Lucien
I think we came to a conclusion that there are 4 kinds of RotS Anakin:

1.) Light Side Jedi Anakin--the weakest one.
2.) Moody, kinda pissed Anakin--the one that gave Dooku a run up until he (Dooku) employed Dun Moch.
3.) "Teh Z0ne" Anakin--the most focused and, frankly, dangerous Anakin.
4.) Dark Side Anakin--the most powerful of Anakins, but his lack of focus is something to be capitalized upon, which is what Kenobi did, according to the novel.

Advent
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think we came to a conclusion that there are 4 kinds of RotS Anakin:

1.) Light Side Jedi Anakin--the weakest one.
2.) Moody, kinda pissed Anakin--the one that gave Dooku a run up until he (Dooku) employed Dun Moch.
3.) "Teh Z0ne" Anakin--the most focused and, frankly, dangerous Anakin.
4.) Dark Side Anakin--the most powerful of Anakins, but his lack of focus is something to be capitalized upon, which is what Kenobi did, according to the novel.

There is only one RotS Anakin with separate states of mind, perhaps. Anakin "in the zone" is focusing his rage and well of emotions onto his opponent. He's technically using the dark side, but maintaining a clarity of mind by controlling the emotions. That means the state Anakin was in when he killed Dooku is what we see against Cin Drallig, for example. That's why he tools him. This is how Sith Lords fight; rather than their rage making them mindless berserkers a la Mustafar.

On Mustafar, Anakin was an emotional wreck. This was the first chance he got to actually think about what he's done (killing children, his Jedi brothers, and abandoning everything he knew up to that point). Notice how he is crying in that one scene? Anakin was absolutely mentally unstable by the time of his duel with Kenobi. He ends up hurting the one he turned to the dark side for, because his mind was warped at that point. Unlike against Count Dooku, he could not control himself.

Edit: With that, I'd say "Light side Anakin" is the same as number two, and "in the zone" is the same as "Dark side Anakin". What we saw against Obi-Wan had to do with the plot catching up to the character.

Ms.Marvel
its easier to just call him "eyeliner anakin", or "thriller anakin" when hes in that state.

http://destroyerbeat.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/o_darthvader.jpg

erm

in any case i think RotS obiwan could definitely take this through sheer attrition. plus he knows anakin well enough to mindrape him into doing something stupid.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Advent
There is only one RotS Anakin with separate states of mind, perhaps.Yeah, that's... what I was implying.

Originally posted by Advent
Anakin "in the zone" is focusing his rage and well of emotions onto his opponent. He's technically using the dark side, but maintaining a clarity of mind by controlling the emotions. That means the state Anakin was in when he killed Dooku is what we see against Cin Drallig, for example. That's why he tools him. This is how Sith Lords fight; rather than their rage making them mindless berserkers a la Mustafar.

On Mustafar, Anakin was an emotional wreck. This was the first chance he got to actually think about what he's done (killing children, his Jedi brothers, and abandoning everything he knew up to that point). Notice how he is crying in that one scene? Anakin was absolutely mentally unstable by the time of his duel with Kenobi. He ends up hurting the one he turned to the dark side for, because his mind was warped at that point. Unlike against Count Dooku, he could not control himself.

Edit: With that, I'd say "Light side Anakin" is the same as number two, and "in the zone" is the same as "Dark side Anakin". What we saw against Obi-Wan had to do with the plot catching up to the character. I based my ranking from my assessment of the RotS duels in the novel. IIRC, after Kenobi was downed by Dooku, "Moody Anakin" emerged and started rivaling Dooku, even winning. Then Dooku used Dun Moch and in Dooku's words he went from having the edge to losing. Then of course "tEh Z0ne Anakin" came about and defeated Dooku. Following this on Mustafar was Dark Side Anakin that was all crazy-pants.

Hewhoknowsall
Obi Wan is probably about evenly matched with Anakin as of ROTS, right?

But has he developed his power sufficiently do defeat his AOTC self and the AOTC Anakin?

Oh, and Anakin's power fluctuates a lot in the movie. Apparently his state of mind really affects him. But if "in the zone" Anakin is fighting like Sith do, then that must mean that sith are far more powerful than jedi, which doesn't seem to be always true.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Obi Wan is probably about evenly matched with Anakin as of ROTS, right? In raw strength and power? No. In saber skills? It depends on what one considers skill. Powerhouse expert on Djem So vs. the prodigy of Soresu. "This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object."

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Oh, and Anakin's power fluctuates a lot in the movie. Apparently his state of mind really affects him. But if "in the zone" Anakin is fighting like Sith do, then that must mean that sith are far more powerful than jedi, which doesn't seem to be always true. That's generalizing. We've seen Jedi more powerful than Sith and vice versa. Individuals.

Darth Subjekt
LOVE that Dark Knight line... so true for this instance.

The darkside is more powerful in the sense that it's a destructive force and all it's energies are being thrust outwad onto it's opponent. That being said, it's also a self destructing power so it can hurt the practitioner in the long run.

When Anakin uses his emotions and such, it's no different than what Luke teaches his NJO, so I don't know if we can call him DS Anakin. Yes he's using negative emotions, but he's funneling them into a positive outlet, i.e. fighting a Sith Lord. Which is, in essence, no different than Mace using Vaapad. He's not letting the darkside overtake him and control him, as he is in total control at all times.

It is that incarnation of Anakin that I believe can take almost anyone he faces. Not in force attacks, but he could likely overwhelm them before they could use the force.

Count Makashi
1. ROTS Obi Wan The complete master of Soresu at this time, he is much better then his younger self and Anakin, he would hold both of them off until someone of the duo(most likely Anakin) would make a mistake and take him out and then proceed to defeat the other one.

2. ROTS Obi Wan is the most powerful, but none of the combatants have the offensive powers to easily defeat the other team. So the question is, could the duo together overcome ROTS Kenobis mastery of the Force? I would give a slighter edge to the duo.

3. ROTS Kenobi Wit his superior saber skills and being a smarter fighter, would win this.

Darth Subjekt
Sorry, can't agree. There's nothing to suggest that ROTS OB1 is more powerful than Anakin. By AOTC he was already stated as being able to do things that no one else could do. Being that OB1 was already getting older, I doubt he would grow in power that much in three years. More mastery of it, sure, but not more powerful. I don't see how a solo OB1 could win this. Anakin would have near endless power reserves and along with AoTC OB1, would eventually wear down his defenses.

Hewhoknowsall
Obi Wan would be like "ok...we take him together. you go in..." But Anakin wouldn't listen and would rush in and do a flip over Obi Wan, only to get chopped into pieces. AOTC Obi Wan would get tooled just like got tooled by Dooku, and then ROTS Obi Wan would get tooled by Yoda.

...

Seriously, if Obi Wan could block Grevious's 20 strikes a second, then he could probably block the two's strikes.

Count Makashi
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Sorry, can't agree. There's nothing to suggest that ROTS OB1 is more powerful than Anakin. By AOTC he was already stated as being able to do things that no one else could do. Being that OB1 was already getting older, I doubt he would grow in power that much in three years. More mastery of it, sure, but not more powerful. I don't see how a solo OB1 could win this. Anakin would have near endless power reserves and along with AoTC OB1, would eventually wear down his defenses.

Just for the record, we are talking about ROTS Kenobi and AOTC Anakin right?

Well would you agree that ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan are about the same level in Force mastery, because whet they Forced pushed each other on Mustafar, they were about equal. And surely you would agree that ROTS Anakin>AOTC Anakin.
The problem with Obi-Wan he lacks offensive powers, just like Anakin and his younger version does, so the fight would go to sabers.
And i am not saying Obi-Wan would trash the duo immediately, but he would set it up, to first take one out and then proceed to take the the remaining person out as well. He would just wait for Anakin to make a mistake, because Anakin from AOTC is very reckless and head strong, he would make a mistake eventually.
Another advantage for ROTS Kenobi is, that he knows about everything about Anakin and his former self, whole the duo, doesn't know that much about the future Kenobi, not to mention he is much more experienced(3 years of war), calmed, smarter fighter...
And Anakins endless power reserve, is kind off a non factor, because Kenobi would force Anakin to make a mistake, he would utilize, before he would get tired.

Sure Anakin By AOTC was stated as being able to do things that no one else could do, but that is only compared to his peers, not generally, are you saying that people like Yoda and Mace, couldn't do what Anakin could?(except for Anakins flying ability).

How do you know he(Kenobi) didn't grow in power by a huge amount, i doubt he hit his maximum potential by AOTC?
Dooku improved by a considerable margin in his 70s, Mace made a huge leap from TPM to AOTC and he was older then Kenobi.
I would think that 3 years of constant fighting, would improve your skill considerably. Before he was doing just diplomatic missions and training and then he was fighting constantly to stays alive for 3 years.

ares834
Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Episode 3 Obi-Wan wins here. He owned DS Anakin who was MUCH stronger then Count Dooku, who defeated the duo here. And he killed Grievous, who would have also beaten Episode 2 Obi-Wan and Anakin.

eek!
Worst case of ABC logic I have ever seen. You are claiming that ROTS Obi-Wan will win because he beat a guy, who beat Dooku, who beat the team. BUT ROTS Obi-Wan was thrashed by Dooku... SO clearly your "argument" fails.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Obi Wan would be like "ok...we take him together. you go in..." But Anakin wouldn't listen and would rush in and do a flip over Obi Wan, only to get chopped into pieces. AOTC Obi Wan would get tooled just like got tooled by Dooku, and then ROTS Obi Wan would get tooled by Yoda.

...

Seriously, if Obi Wan could block Grevious's 20 strikes a second, then he could probably block the two's strikes. Right, because Anakin would react the same way to OB1 as he did to a former Jedi turned Sith who just killed a bunch of Jedi... yea, that makes sense.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Just for the record, we are talking about ROTS Kenobi and AOTC Anakin right?

Well would you agree that ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan are about the same level in Force mastery, because whet they Forced pushed each other on Mustafar, they were about equal. And surely you would agree that ROTS Anakin>AOTC Anakin.
The problem with Obi-Wan he lacks offensive powers, just like Anakin and his younger version does, so the fight would go to sabers.
And i am not saying Obi-Wan would trash the duo immediately, but he would set it up, to first take one out and then proceed to take the the remaining person out as well. He would just wait for Anakin to make a mistake, because Anakin from AOTC is very reckless and head strong, he would make a mistake eventually.
Another advantage for ROTS Kenobi is, that he knows about everything about Anakin and his former self, whole the duo, doesn't know that much about the future Kenobi, not to mention he is much more experienced(3 years of war), calmed, smarter fighter...
And Anakins endless power reserve, is kind off a non factor, because Kenobi would force Anakin to make a mistake, he would utilize, before he would get tired.

Sure Anakin By AOTC was stated as being able to do things that no one else could do, but that is only compared to his peers, not generally, are you saying that people like Yoda and Mace, couldn't do what Anakin could?(except for Anakins flying ability).

How do you know he(Kenobi) didn't grow in power by a huge amount, i doubt he hit his maximum potential by AOTC?
Dooku improved by a considerable margin in his 70s, Mace made a huge leap from TPM to AOTC and he was older then Kenobi.
I would think that 3 years of constant fighting, would improve your skill considerably. Before he was doing just diplomatic missions and training and then he was fighting constantly to stays alive for 3 years. No. Just because they had a stalemate with ONE move doesn't mean they're equals. Per Lucas, at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful. Yes he lacks mastery and control at times, but he is still superior to OB1. Now, is ROTS OB1's mastery of the force greater than AOTC Anakin's? Sure. But that's also from a "Jedi" point of view. If Anakin were to give into his emotions like he did with the tuskens and later, Dooku, then I'm sure he could find some ways to launch some offensive force attacks.

I just think that together, they would overwhelm OB1. It won't be fast, but they will get him. Look how Anakin affected Dooku after their duel via his labored breathing. ROTS OB1 couldn't even do that. People tend to underestimate Anakin around here becase of Hayden's acting and Lucas' writing.

First, there was a 10 year gap for Dooku to improve, and Dooku, by nature, is quite a bit higher than OB1. There was only 3 years between AOTC and ROTS and we've seen nothing from Kenobi to suggest he's a beast with the force. Just some low grade telekinesis. Yes his saber skill enhanced, but to what extent? Couldn't be that much in three years compared to the first 10 that he started studying it after realizing that QGJ's form was lacking.

And yes, fighting for that long would make you better, but you can only go as far as your natural potential can take you. He didn't become THE master of Soresu during ROTS, which means he obtained that goal during the Clone Wars, which for us, could be a few weeks after AOTC for all we know. Even still, the power gap for OB1 wouldn't be that great or anywhere near the level of that of Anakin.

On a side note, Dooku had just quit the Order around the time of TPM and was said to have become a more powerful Sith once giving into the Darkside, which would attribute to his exponential power gain over that 10 year span. Well that and training under the most powerful Sith Lord ever...

mattatom
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Right, because Anakin would react the same way to OB1 as he did to a former Jedi turned Sith who just killed a bunch of Jedi... yea, that makes sense.

No. Just because they had a stalemate with ONE move doesn't mean they're equals. Per Lucas, at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful. Yes he lacks mastery and control at times, but he is still superior to OB1. Now, is ROTS OB1's mastery of the force greater than AOTC Anakin's? Sure. But that's also from a "Jedi" point of view. If Anakin were to give into his emotions like he did with the tuskens and later, Dooku, then I'm sure he could find some ways to launch some offensive force attacks.

I just think that together, they would overwhelm OB1. It won't be fast, but they will get him. Look how Anakin affected Dooku after their duel via his labored breathing. ROTS OB1 couldn't even do that. People tend to underestimate Anakin around here becase of Hayden's acting and Lucas' writing.

First, there was a 10 year gap for Dooku to improve, and Dooku, by nature, is quite a bit higher than OB1. There was only 3 years between AOTC and ROTS and we've seen nothing from Kenobi to suggest he's a beast with the force. Just some low grade telekinesis. Yes his saber skill enhanced, but to what extent? Couldn't be that much in three years compared to the first 10 that he started studying it after realizing that QGJ's form was lacking.

And yes, fighting for that long would make you better, but you can only go as far as your natural potential can take you. He didn't become THE master of Soresu during ROTS, which means he obtained that goal during the Clone Wars, which for us, could be a few weeks after AOTC for all we know. Even still, the power gap for OB1 wouldn't be that great or anywhere near the level of that of Anakin.

On a side note, Dooku had just quit the Order around the time of TPM and was said to have become a more powerful Sith once giving into the Darkside, which would attribute to his exponential power gain over that 10 year span. Well that and training under the most powerful Sith Lord ever... Thats all very well and good but I wasn't aware Dooku trained under Bandon confused

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by mattatom
Thats all very well and good but I wasn't aware Dooku trained under Bandon confused

You mean Revan right?

Fun note: Bandon is actually indirectly trained by the most powerful Sith Lord.

Count Makashi
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt


No. Just because they had a stalemate with ONE move doesn't mean they're equals. Per Lucas, at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful. Yes he lacks mastery and control at times, but he is still superior to OB1. Now, is ROTS OB1's mastery of the force greater than AOTC Anakin's? Sure. But that's also from a "Jedi" point of view. If Anakin were to give into his emotions like he did with the tuskens and later, Dooku, then I'm sure he could find some ways to launch some offensive force attacks.

I just think that together, they would overwhelm OB1. It won't be fast, but they will get him. Look how Anakin affected Dooku after their duel via his labored breathing. ROTS OB1 couldn't even do that. People tend to underestimate Anakin around here becase of Hayden's acting and Lucas' writing.

First, there was a 10 year gap for Dooku to improve, and Dooku, by nature, is quite a bit higher than OB1. There was only 3 years between AOTC and ROTS and we've seen nothing from Kenobi to suggest he's a beast with the force. Just some low grade telekinesis. Yes his saber skill enhanced, but to what extent? Couldn't be that much in three years compared to the first 10 that he started studying it after realizing that QGJ's form was lacking.

And yes, fighting for that long would make you better, but you can only go as far as your natural potential can take you. He didn't become THE master of Soresu during ROTS, which means he obtained that goal during the Clone Wars, which for us, could be a few weeks after AOTC for all we know. Even still, the power gap for OB1 wouldn't be that great or anywhere near the level of that of Anakin.

On a side note, Dooku had just quit the Order around the time of TPM and was said to have become a more powerful Sith once giving into the Darkside, which would attribute to his exponential power gain over that 10 year span. Well that and training under the most powerful Sith Lord ever...

I never said, they were equals, of course Anakin has more raw power, reserve..., (more than anyone) but they have ABOUT equal mastery of their powers, probably Obis is even higher. But what good is this raw power to him(Anakin) , if he cant summon it at will, that he cant control it all the time(i am talking about Force powers, not ligtsaber prowess).
And ROTS Anakin has nothing to do with this fight.
But what offensive Force powers does AOTC Anakin have? If ROTS ROTS Anakin, who very much, gave to his emotions, couldn't defeat ROTS Kenobi, what will AOTC Anakin do, who has even less mastery of the Force and has no reason yet to give in to his emotions, against Kenobi.

Tell me, how do you imagine the fight, described it to me, how will the duo get him.
Sure Anakin affected Dooku a little, but lets be fair here, by this point, he was no match for him and Dooku was practically toying with the duo in the movie.
Dooku only took Kenobi out so quickly in ROTS, because of the Force, with sabers he would, have to work for it very hard.
I actually had no problem with his acting and off all actors(except Ray Parks-Dart Maul) he was the most proficient in the training process,
allegedly, almost defeated a Kendo master.

Yeah there was a 10 year gap and of course Dooku is higher then Obi-Wan, but he was decades older then Kenobi and still advanced by a lot, are we to believe that Kenobi who was in his 30s, by AOTC was actually close to his full potential. And you have to remember , it was 3 years of constant fighting.
I never said he is a best with the Force, but i wouldn't call him weak, sure Dooku pwned him, but he is one of the best ever. Very few people, in history of SW, could do something like that.
I think his saber skill was enhanced, by a huge margin. He went from, being a joke against Dooku, to pwning Grievous with ease. I don't see, AOTC Kenobi, doing that.
Why couldn't he learned more in 3 years of constant war, then 10 years of peace. Look how much Dooku learned in 10 years, compare to previous 70, how much Mace advanced in 10, compared to before...
Both were older then Kenobi and Kenobi saw much more action then Dooku and Mace.

I agree that, fighting long would make you better and you can only go as far as your natural potential can take you, but how do you know, where Kenobis potential ends. Do you have a chart of every SW character and when they hit their potential. Is it logical to assume, that Kenobi stop growing, somewhere between Clone wars in his 30s, when people older then him, were still advancing, becoming more powerful.
Your absolutely right about the fact, that the power gap for OB1 wouldn't be that great or anywhere near the level of that of Anakin, but in this fight its AOTC Anakin, who has still to experience the 3 year war and huge growth in power.
And not to mention the fact, that he still learned new techniques that made him a overall better combatant.

Dooku advanced lot, by joining the Dark side and studying under Sidious, but he was already in his 70s, why couldn't Obi-Wan in his 30s, whit constant fighting advance as well.

And like i said in my earlier post, Kenobi knows the duo and their weaknesses, the same doesn't apply in return.
And, do we agree, that no team here, can with this battle with Force powers?

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Count Makashi
I never said, they were equals, of course Anakin has more raw power, reserve..., (more than anyone) but they have ABOUT equal mastery of their powers, probably Obis is even higher. But what good is this raw power to him(Anakin) , if he cant summon it at will, that he cant control it all the time(i am talking about Force powers, not ligtsaber prowess). The reserves is what keeps him going at such a frantic pace that people can't keep up with. Ergo, OB1 would tire long before Anakin would and his defenses would be breached.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
And ROTS Anakin has nothing to do with this fight. Um...never said he did. confused

Originally posted by Count Makashi
But what offensive Force powers does AOTC Anakin have? What offensive force powers does Kenobi have? They're Jedi... they don't typically use the force like that.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
If ROTS ROTS Anakin, who very much, gave to his emotions, couldn't defeat ROTS Kenobi, whoa whoa whoa.... you know that was a completely different situation than when he completely and utterly destroyed Dooku. You know better than that. Don't try that Nebaris shit please.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
what will AOTC Anakin do, who has even less mastery of the Force and has no reason yet to give in to his emotions, against Kenobi. I said Anakin wouldn't freak out on OB1 like he did Dooku in AOTC. That certainly doesn't mean that he can't use his emotions to fuel to his attacks.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Tell me, how do you imagine the fight, described it to me, how will the duo get him. Considering they were the best team in the Order, they could figure something out. They aren't both going to just stand right in front of him and take turns attacking him. They're both craftier than that. If a padawan OB1 can defeat a more deadly and powerful opponent (Maul) then certainly him and the chosen one can defeat an older OB1.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Sure Anakin affected Dooku a little, but lets be fair here, by this point, he was no match for him and Dooku was practically toying with the duo in the movie. But the point is he did much better than OB1 did. Proof he was "toying' with them? Especially when Anakin saved OB1 from a sure shot death blow.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Dooku only took Kenobi out so quickly in ROTS, because of the Force, with sabers he would, have to work for it very hard. How do you know? He mastered the ultimate refinement in saber to saber combat to the absolute highest degree. Kenobi mastered a defensive form designed at a time when an answer to blaster shots was needed. And yes he used the force. he was so in control of the saber duel at hand that he had the time to use the force against OB1 while simultaneously kicking Anakin in the chest.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I actually had no problem with his acting and off all actors(except Ray Parks-Dart Maul) he was the most proficient in the training process,
allegedly, almost defeated a Kendo master. That was a general statement for the boards. Not just directed towards you.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yeah there was a 10 year gap and of course Dooku is higher then Obi-Wan, but he was decades older then Kenobi and still advanced by a lot, are we to believe that Kenobi who was in his 30s, by AOTC was actually close to his full potential. And you have to remember , it was 3 years of constant fighting. Again, if Dooku had a higher potential that OB1, which he almost certainly does, then it makes the point moot. We didn't see that great of improvement on the part of Kenobi, save for sabers, which we didn't really get to see much of in AOTC. I'm not saying he didn't improve. I'm saying it wasn't to that great of a degree, especially in the force.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I never said he is a best with the Force, but i wouldn't call him weak, sure Dooku pwned him, but he is one of the best ever. Very few people, in history of SW, could do something like that. I didn't say he was weak, but I wouldn't call him one of the greats either. What has he done with the force? Saw QGJ and came to see Luke? Wow...

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I think his saber skill was enhanced, by a huge margin. He went from, being a joke against Dooku, to pwning Grievous with ease. I don't see, AOTC Kenobi, doing that. Wait, pwning GG with ease? Did we watch the same movie? He cut off two hands and then used a force push. He didn't defeat GG with a saber. He had to shoot him. He wasn't even effective with the staff. And he wasn't much more than a joke to Dooku in Sith either.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Why couldn't he learned more in 3 years of constant war, then 10 years of peace. Studying? Time to refine skills? Guidance from greater masters? Just cause you're in wars doesn't mean that you will constantly be in situations that will allow you to improve on your force abilities. Saber skills, sure. I said he improved. But we don't know at what point he earned the moniker as THE Soresu master. It could have been right after AOTC for all we know.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Look how much Dooku learned in 10 years, compare to previous 70, how much Mace advanced in 10, compared to before...
Both were older then Kenobi and Kenobi saw much more action then Dooku and Mace. This begs proof. Mace fought along side in the CW and Dooku was being trained and instructed by Sidious, the most powerful DLOTS ever. They don't train the way Jedi do in peaceful surrounding and such. He was constantly busy carrying out Sidious' plans across the galaxy, and learning new DS techniques. Mace and OB1 weren't learning "new" dark techniques. I'd venture to say they weren't learning new LS techniques that late in life. And still, you're comparing 10 years and two people that are far more powerful to OB1 who only had 3 years to grow.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I agree that, fighting long would make you better and you can only go as far as your natural potential can take you, but how do you know, where Kenobis potential ends. Do you have a chart of every SW character and when they hit their potential. That's exactly my point. You can't assume that he grew by a great amount when nothing suggested he did, save for becoming better in sabers.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Is it logical to assume, that Kenobi stop growing, see above.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
somewhere between Clone wars in his 30s, when people older then him, were still advancing, becoming more powerful. Who else really grew that much in those three years other than Anakin?

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Your absolutely right about the fact, that the power gap for OB1 wouldn't be that great or anywhere near the level of that of Anakin, but in this fight its AOTC Anakin, who has still to experience the 3 year war and huge growth in power. But he still has the power within him, he's just yet to learn to harness it. Given his natural abilities and then fact that AOTC OB1 wasn't far from his ROTS self, they would eventually overpower him.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
And not to mention the fact, that he still learned new techniques that made him a overall better combatant. Like what?

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Dooku advanced lot, by joining the Dark side and studying under Sidious, but he was already in his 70s, why couldn't Obi-Wan in his 30s, whit constant fighting advance as well. Different potential. Different techniques. Different methods of learning. And different masters, for starters.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
And like i said in my earlier post, Kenobi knows the duo and their weaknesses, the same doesn't apply in return. How not? He doesn't know himself? Anakin doesn't know him? ROTS OB1 knew all that about Dooku the second time around and he ended up in a worst position.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
And, do we agree, that no team here, can with this battle with Force powers? I'll assume you meant "win." Not really. But it would depend on how they would use the environment around them. But unlikely in most scenarios.

Count Makashi
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
The reserves is what keeps him going at such a frantic pace that people can't keep up with. Ergo, OB1 would tire long before Anakin would and his defenses would be breached..

Yea, but the question is, could he tire him before, ROTS Obi-Wan defeats him, or is he actually good enough yet, to defeat him. Remember this is AOTC Anakin, who is way below of his ROTS version.


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Um...never said he did. confused

Then why did you brought it up?


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What offensive force powers does Kenobi have? They're Jedi... they don't typically use the force like that.

I know, its exactly what i was saying. It was a response to your statement

-If Anakin were to give into his emotions like he did with the tuskens and later, Dooku, then I'm sure he could find some ways to launch some offensive force attacks


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
whoa whoa whoa.... you know that was a completely different situation than when he completely and utterly destroyed Dooku. You know better than that. Don't try that Nebaris shit please.

Yea, i know, but Kenobi still survived his onslaught, whats his(Anakins) younger version going to do, who isn't as good, strong, fast....?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I said Anakin wouldn't freak out on OB1 like he did Dooku in AOTC. That certainly doesn't mean that he can't use his emotions to fuel to his attacks.

Well Obi-Wan could be a dick and just say something about Padme.
And yeah, he can use his emotions, but this is THE master of Soresu
and Anakin who is headstrong, inpatient, reckless...


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Considering they were the best team in the Order, they could figure something out. They aren't both going to just stand right in front of him and take turns attacking him. They're both craftier than that.

The same aplies in return. ROTS Kenobi isn't just going to stand there and let the team atack him at once. He will try to break them apart, he willl use faints to force them to get in eachothers way...
And the best team in order, performed miserably against Dooku twice.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If a padawan OB1 can defeat a more deadly and powerful opponent (Maul) then certainly him and the chosen one can defeat an older OB1.

whoa whoa whoa.... you know that was a completely different situation. It was PIS and you know it. You know better than that. Don't try that Nebaris shit please.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But the point is he did much better than OB1 did. Proof he was "toying' with them? Especially when Anakin saved OB1 from a sure shot death blow.

Yea, he did better, but he was still no match fore Dooku.
Well ok, he was toying with Obi-Wan, but didn't go all-out on Anakin either, look how easily he destroyed his second saber.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
How do you know? He mastered the ultimate refinement in saber to saber combat to the absolute highest degree. Kenobi mastered a defensive form designed at a time when an answer to blaster shots was needed. And yes he used the force. he was so in control of the saber duel at hand that he had the time to use the force against OB1 while simultaneously kicking Anakin in the chest.

ROTS novel.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

-Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this

Sure Dooku was surprised, when Kenobi switched to Soresu, but he still couldn't break trough his defences in the given time,that is why he used the Force, because he was worried, not because he was in control.


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Again, if Dooku had a higher potential that OB1, which he almost certainly does, then it makes the point moot. We didn't see that great of improvement on the part of Kenobi, save for sabers, which we didn't really get to see much of in AOTC. I'm not saying he didn't improve. I'm saying it wasn't to that great of a degree, especially in the force.

I never said in the Force, i meant his general combat prowess. But he advanced hugely in sabers. He went from being a joke to Dooku, to see above.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I didn't say he was weak, but I wouldn't call him one of the greats either. What has he done with the force? Saw QGJ and came to see Luke? Wow...

Well ok, maybe not one of the greats, but very strong, i think the problem is, that most people thin of Yoda and compare all the Jedi to him and of course then they look weak. Hell, what did other Jedi, in the time of PT show with the Force?(except Mace)

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Wait, pwning GG with ease? Did we watch the same movie? He cut off two hands and then used a force push. He didn't defeat GG with a saber. He had to shoot him. He wasn't even effective with the staff. And he wasn't much more than a joke to Dooku in Sith either.

Yes with ease. He cut of his 2 hands easily and Force pushed Grievous, who then tried to escape. And he didn't defeat him with sabers, was because he lost his saber in the chase. And even with a staff, he still defeated him and hit him in the chest, GG only survived, because he had some kind of a steel chest and staffs weren't designed to hurt him.
He says something like this to Obi-Wan(i just don't remember where)

-Do you really think, i would equip my bodyguards, with weapons that could harm me?

Only in the Force, see above.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Studying? Time to refine skills? Guidance from greater masters? Just cause you're in wars doesn't mean that you will constantly be in situations that will allow you to improve on your force abilities. Saber skills, sure. I said he improved. But we don't know at what point he earned the moniker as THE Soresu master. It could have been right after AOTC for all we know.

I never meant his Force powers alone, but his overall combat ability. For
all we know it could have been 3 days before ROTS. You don't have proof to dispute, that he didn't advance allot in between the Episodes.
Like i said, he went from being a joke to Dooku, to holding his own against him with sabers.


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
This begs proof. Mace fought along side in the CW and Dooku was being trained and instructed by Sidious, the most powerful DLOTS ever. They don't train the way Jedi do in peaceful surrounding and such. He was constantly busy carrying out Sidious' plans across the galaxy, and learning new DS techniques. Mace and OB1 weren't learning "new" dark techniques. I'd venture to say they weren't learning new LS techniques that late in life. And still, you're comparing 10 years and two people that are far more powerful to OB1 who only had 3 years to grow.

Yea, but he wasn't fighting as much as Kenobi, we see in the cartons,
novels that he stayed more in the temple, occasionally going to pitch in.
Dooku didn't spent all 10 years training every single day, he still has an CIS to run, meetings with important people...
I am not saying Kenobi advanced more then Dooku or Mace, but both of them were quite older and still advanced, why couldn't Kenobi in his 30s.
Are you saying, that he didn't grow after AOTC?


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's exactly my point. You can't assume that he grew by a great amount when nothing suggested he did, save for becoming better in sabers

Yea, but your saying he only advanced by a little in sabers, i am saying, he advanced by allot. See the above quote from the ROTS novel.


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Who else really grew that much in those three years other than Anakin?

No one as much as Anakin, but other people, including Kenobi, still grew.

Count Makashi
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But he still has the power within him, he's just yet to learn to harness it. Given his natural abilities and then fact that AOTC OB1 wasn't far from his ROTS self, they would eventually overpower him

Yes, he has to learn to harness it, something he didn't menage to do, by AOTC, so all this power, want help him that much, if he has no control over it, or if he cant unleash at will.
ROTS Kenobi is quite, if not much better then his AOTC counterpart.
See above.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Like what?

I don't know, but he probably picked something up.



Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
How not? He doesn't know himself? Anakin doesn't know him? ROTS OB1 knew all that about Dooku the second time around and he ended up in a worst position.

They know about him and generally know what to expect, but they don't know exactly how he "evolved" and how good he has become, While ROTS Kenobi, knows everything about his former self and apprentice.
A small advantage for ROTS Kenobi.



Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I'll assume you meant "win." Not really. But it would depend on how they would use the environment around them. But unlikely in most scenarios.

Exactly, it would have to go to sabers, where ROTS Kenobi, who is a smarter fighter, the best combatant here, more calm, experienced(from the war), would eventually turn the battle in his favor. He would especially use the knowledge of AOTC Anakin(his weaknesses), to win this battle.


Sorry for the double post, it said i had to much characters.

Darth Subjekt
Hey, I'm at work right now and when I get off, my wife and I have to go see our Realtor about a new house, but after that, I will come back and reply to you. Don't think I'm ducking you or conceded, lol. wink

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yea, but the question is, could he tire him before, ROTS Obi-Wan defeats him, or is he actually good enough yet, to defeat him. Remember this is AOTC Anakin, who is way below of his ROTS version. He's still very powerful and talented and he still has younger OB1 with him. This seems to be turning into Anakin vs OB1 and it's not just that. I think they, together, with Anakin's force reserves, I think they'd get him before Anakin tires.


Originally posted by Count Makashi
Then why did you brought it up? I didn't. I was making a comparison.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I know, its exactly what i was saying. It was a response to your statement

-If Anakin were to give into his emotions like he did with the tuskens and later, Dooku, then I'm sure he could find some ways to launch some offensive force attacks No, I'm saying given how emotional Anakin is, he could use the force for offense. Kenobi... probably not so much.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yea, i know, but Kenobi still survived his onslaught, whats his(Anakins) younger version going to do, who isn't as good, strong, fast....?This is a good point, but this time he'll have OB1 with him too.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Well Obi-Wan could be a dick and just say something about Padme.
And yeah, he can use his emotions, but this is THE master of Soresu
and Anakin who is headstrong, inpatient, reckless... Not likely. Jedi don't typically use Don Moch or anything of the like. Sure, little quips here and there, but nothing that would bring out his inner rage. Also, the outcome wouldn't be the same as rushing Dooku, as OB1 doesn't have lightning.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
whoa whoa whoa.... you know that was a completely different situation. It was PIS and you know it. You know better than that. Don't try that Nebaris shit please. No, actually that's not different at all. A padawan and his master taking on a better, singular opponent. The padawan taps into the darkside in order to gain a temporary advantage and kill the opposition. But nice attempt at using my quote against me. wink

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yea, he did better, but he was still no match fore Dooku.
Well ok, he was toying with Obi-Wan, but didn't go all-out on Anakin either, look how easily he destroyed his second saber. That's not Anakin's chosen style. But when it was down to one saber, Anakin improved alot and really pushed the Count. Dooku was not toying with them. No reason and he tried to kill OB1, but Anakin saved him... again.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
ROTS novel.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

-Kenobi had become a master of Soresu. Ok, that's just the part that says they were using ploy forms against him at first. This will also ccome in handy to one of your later arguments.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this It never said that at all. It said that while planning his attack based on his ploy form, that he didn't realize that it was a ploy form until he felt Anakin coming back at him. It also never strikes at his feet or legs in the movie so it could be rendered irrelevant.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Sure Dooku was surprised, when Kenobi switched to Soresu, but he still couldn't break trough his defences in the given time,that is why he used the Force, because he was worried, not because he was in control. The time limit? What 10 seconds at the most? That means nothing. There's not set time limits that one has to break a defense before its indicative of being impossible. I'd say that Dooku would have a better chance of getting through than Anakin did in ROTS. That's how good Dooku is. He simply didn't have time before the "headstrong, impatient and reckless" Anakin would have gotten to him.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I never said in the Force, i meant his general combat prowess. But he advanced hugely in sabers. He went from being a joke to Dooku, to see above. He was a joke both times, just more so the first time cause Anakin wasn't there to mount the pressure right away like he was the second time.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Well ok, maybe not one of the greats, but very strong, i think the problem is, that most people thin of Yoda and compare all the Jedi to him and of course then they look weak. Hell, what did other Jedi, in the time of PT show with the Force?(except Mace) Story wasn't focused around that many other Jedi, but OB1 was never known for being a force powerhouse.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yes with ease. He cut of his 2 hands easily and Force pushed Grievous, who then tried to escape. And he didn't defeat him with sabers, was because he lost his saber in the chase. And even with a staff, he still defeated him and hit him in the chest, GG only survived, because he had some kind of a steel chest and staffs weren't designed to hurt him.
He says something like this to Obi-Wan(i just don't remember where)

-Do you really think, i would equip my bodyguards, with weapons that could harm me? He was so good that he lost his saber... and once he had the staff, he was disarmed extremely quickly. He used the force push on GG because he was feeling the pressure. If he were that confident, he would have finished it there.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Only in the Force, see above. Already dealt with.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I never meant his Force powers alone, but his overall combat ability. For
all we know it could have been 3 days before ROTS. You don't have proof to dispute, that he didn't advance allot in between the Episodes.
Like i said, he went from being a joke to Dooku, to holding his own against him with sabers. Then you don't have proof to dispute it either. And like I said, he was a joke both times. Just more time to show it (by himself) in Clones.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yea, but he wasn't fighting as much as Kenobi, we see in the cartons,
novels that he stayed more in the temple, occasionally going to pitch in.
Dooku didn't spent all 10 years training every single day, he still has an CIS to run, meetings with important people... thought we weren't using the CW in here?? And how can you say that Dooku wasn't always striving to get better and or fighting? He was a Sith lord and killed people accordingly. Its hard to run the CIS as you suggest during a war. And we see him in action in the CW, if you want to bring it up.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I am not saying Kenobi advanced more then Dooku or Mace, but both of them were quite older and still advanced, why couldn't Kenobi in his 30s.
Are you saying, that he didn't grow after AOTC? Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. But you're naming two people that are a good league or two above Kenobi naturally. Yes he improved, but nothing we see shows "remarkable" growth.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yea, but your saying he only advanced by a little in sabers, i am saying, he advanced by allot. See the above quote from the ROTS novel. Again, all the quote says is that they were using ploy forms and that Dooku realized it at the last minute. That's it.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
No one as much as Anakin, but other people, including Kenobi, still grew. Never doubted that. Just by how much.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yes, he has to learn to harness it, something he didn't menage to do, by AOTC, so all this power, want help him that much, if he has no control over it, or if he cant unleash at will.
ROTS Kenobi is quite, if not much better then his AOTC counterpart.
See above. He doesn't have as much control as in ROTS, but he still can control it and focus it on his enemies. Dooku was just the first to hand him his ass up to that point, and as its been noted, OB1 is no Dooku.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I don't know, but he probably picked something up. Well that doesn't really prove or even say anything, does it?

Originally posted by Count Makashi
They know about him and generally know what to expect, but they don't know exactly how he "evolved" and how good he has become, While ROTS Kenobi, knows everything about his former self and apprentice.
A small advantage for ROTS Kenobi. He doesn't know how his former self would react to... himself...


Originally posted by Count Makashi
Exactly, it would have to go to sabers, where ROTS Kenobi, who is a smarter fighter, the best combatant here, more calm, experienced(from the war), would eventually turn the battle in his favor. He would especially use the knowledge of AOTC Anakin(his weaknesses), to win this battle. AOTC OB1 would be just as smart, just not as technically sound. Don't think he's able to beat himself and Anakin.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Sorry for the double post, it said i had to much characters. likewise

Count Makashi
I am busy today, i l respond tomorrow.

Count Makashi
You, know what proves, that Kenobi advanced allot, Asajj Ventress.
In their first fights, Assaj easily holds her own against Kenobi and Anakin. She is about equal, if not better in their first fights.
But by, the time of Obsession(which takes what, a couple of months, before ROTS), she is no match for Kenobi anymore. He easily, effortlessly defends against her and isn't even attacking her, he just parries her strikes and is trying to redeem her, while she is in rage and attacking him furiously.
Obviously, Kenobi had to advance by allot, to go from about equal with Assaj, to easily defeat her. And Assaj was also growing, during the Clone Wars, so Kenobis growth had to be substantial.

Darth Subjekt
I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly. Asajj is hardly a measuring stick. How can he "defeat" her if he, as you said, wasn't even attacking her? Escaping defeat or simply blocking attacks, is in no way, shape or form indicative of "easily defeating" someone in a duel. Dooku was blocking all of Yoda's "attacks" and he could never beat him. Granted, Yoda was holding back, but he was still attacking to subdue him, all strikes of which were blocked.

And yes, Obsession was about 6 months prior to Sith. But still, that doesn't indicate when he advanced. He had to have had improved before Obsession to contend with her.

truejedi
AOTC Kenobi had not even BEGAN to use Soresu. By ROTS, he is "the master" of it. This title is given by Mace, and backed up by musings from Dooku, and by evidence with his fight with Grievous.

Incanus
I read the Star Wars dictionary thingy one time, it said Obi-Wan had mastered 3 forms, Soresu being his best, but also Ataru, and something else............

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by truejedi
AOTC Kenobi had not even BEGAN to use Soresu. By ROTS, he is "the master" of it. This title is given by Mace, and backed up by musings from Dooku, and by evidence with his fight with Grievous. Yes he did. He started right after QGJ died and saw how flawed that style was. He did not master Soresu in less then 3 years. That would make more prodigious that Anakin.

truejedi
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Yes he did. He started right after QGJ died and saw how flawed that style was. He did not master Soresu in less then 3 years. That would make more prodigious that Anakin.

I would have to disagree: Consider:

AOTC: Pg. 341: "Obi-Wan stepped slowly at first, then cam on in a sudden rush, his blue blade coming in hard, right to left.

Pg. 342: "Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacks seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another....

Pg. 342: "Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient.

Pg. 342: His words spurred OBi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but DOoku's red blade....

Pg 343: Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely , his blue lightsaber flashing about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, thought, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thurst, and he soon had dooku backing, the red blade working furiouly to keep Obi-Wan at bay.


pg 343: OBi-Wan pressed forward more forcefully, but Dooku continued...

Sound like SOresu to you? Not to me.

Also, from ROTS:

(While playing Dooku)


So... Dooku had no idea that Kenobi knew Soresu. If Kenobi had used SOresu to fight with Dooku in AOTC (which the novel clearly describes as a form other than all the characteristics we have of Soresu) Then Dooku would not have been so surprised to see it in him in ROTS.

He may have used Shii-Cho, or Ataro in that fight, but not Soresu.

Darth Subjekt
It also doesn't sound like the movie, as OB1 never did any of that.

Second one you quoted... you're taking completely out of context and you know it. He didn't become a master of Soresu during that fight. That's just saying that he and Anakin were using ploy forms with Dooku at the start of the fight.

And no, it doesn't describe a different form, as opposed to OB1 incorrectly trying to use a form he's not yet mastered. He switched to Soresu right after the death of QGJ after noticing how flawed it was.

Examples:

AOTC - Obi-Wan Kenobi uses Soresu against renowned bounty hunter Jango Fett, a masterful wielder of twin blasters. - wookiepedia - Form 3 with picture.

Obi-Wan Kenobi originally practiced Ataru, but when the style's lack of defensive capability cost the life of his Master, he abandoned the style and began practicing Soresu. Eventually, his mastery grew to the point where he was able to defeat such seasoned swordsmen as Grievous, and Darth Vader during the duel on Mustafar. - same source as above

truejedi
give me a source other than wookie. i have heard your quote before, but i'm still not sure where it is from.

EDIT: also, what do you mean kenobi didn't do any of that? It was in the AOTC movie that i watched... Complete with the dialogue break in the middle of the fight.

You are saying you don't like this interpretation of the fight from AOTC. The description above certainly isn't contradicted by the movie.

ANd the quote from ROTS is not out of context. it proves that Dooku was surprised to see Obi-Wan using Soresu. Now why would he be surprised to see Soresu if Kenobi used it against him in AOTC?

Darth Subjekt
It was in the OS's databank before they revamped it, then moved to its current location.

Then I have to watch it again, but I don't recall OB1 ever pressing forward and driving Dooku back. But it has been awhile, so I could be wrong. If so, I'll happily concede that portion.

As far as the first part about OB1 and switching - Star Wars insider # 62 - Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

Raptor 7789
I'd say that like in AOTC, Anakin gets cocky, rushes forward blindly, and then gets killed by RotS OB1. (Except in the movie he doesnt get killed). Then RotS OB1 comes in and destroys his weaker self. BUT if Anakin DIDN'T get cocky and rush forward, I'd say 2v1 would be too much for poor old RotS OB1 and the duo would win.

Darth Subjekt
He wasn't being cocky, he was pissed and didn't think. Ob1 wouldn't have evoked those emotions in Anakin, so he would have no reason to do that. Plus, Dooku got him with lightning, not something that OB1 can do. And OB1's not on Dooku's saber level to just ill Anakin. What did Kriea say about Soresu, its a defensive form that only delays the inevitable? Exactly.

Who has Ob1 killed in saber combat? I don't mean droids and such, but people that could fight back. None come to mind.

Also, at what point was it when Anakin killed Durge? Sure as hell wasn't ROTS. And what he do? Force pushed him into a sun? If he gets mad, but still maintains control, he can fire off force attacks that will have an effect.

Advent
"Obi-Wan takes up a dedication to Form III after the death of Qui-Gon Jinnn (who favored form IV), since it was apparent that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul." (Star Wars Insider 62, FightSaber, pg. 31)

^ I believe that's what you were looking for, True Jedi.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Advent
since it was apparent that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul." (Star Wars Insider 62, FightSaber, pg. 31)



wow really? hes blaming the form? qui-gon lost because he was an inferior duelist period not because of his form. laughing out loud

yoda would whoop darth mauls ass. ataru or not.

Darth Subjekt
Yea, because Maul was far too aggressive to combat with another offensive form. Soresu is the definitive defensive style. it's served him fairly well.. save for fighting Dooku.

And it's safe to say that Yoda is a good margin above both QGJ and Maul. He's the exception, not the rule.

truejedi
Originally posted by Advent
"Obi-Wan takes up a dedication to Form III after the death of Qui-Gon Jinnn (who favored form IV), since it was apparent that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul." (Star Wars Insider 62, FightSaber, pg. 31)

^ I believe that's what you were looking for, True Jedi.

thx for the quote. big grin

So what form did Obi-Wan use in the AOTC fight with Dooku, since Dooku was surprised to see form 3 from him in ROTS?

Advent
Originally posted by truejedi
So what form did Obi-Wan use in the AOTC fight with Dooku, since Dooku was surprised to see form 3 from him in ROTS?

Dooku was played like a violin; that's why he was surprised. Obi-Wan and Anakin tricked him into believing they hadn't grown any stronger since Geonosis; they tricked him into thinking that they didn't stand a chance against his abilities. Well, he was wrong. At least on some level, Dooku realized this. He realized that they were lulling him into a false sense of security and got scared. That's quite a rational response for someone who thrives on controlling the battle and dominating his opponents.

Obviously, he was surprised because they were stronger than he thought, he took it for granted that Kenobi would be using Ataru the entire time since...he was using it. Like I said, he got duped and let his guard down. I fail to see how that means Obi-Wan:

a) didn't start learning Soresu until AOTC (which has been proven incorrect by canon), which was the original point, and

b) didn't use Soresu in AOTC. He attacks, and? We've seen Luminara Unduli press the offensive against Asajj Ventress a few times, as Kenobi does against Grievous; it's obvious against some opponents -- those like Dooku who are perfectionists -- you have to create your own openings. We know that Kenobi implements Ataru into his swordplay anyways, so why you're even bringing the AOTC duel up is beyond me.

For clarification,

Originally posted by truejedi
AOTC Kenobi had not even BEGAN to use Soresu.

^ The original point.

truejedi
I can accept that. I guess I can't exactly prove when Kenobi STARTED using Soresu. I suppose my point would have to be amended to the statement that he didn't use Soresu in the AOTC.

The reason I bring up the AOTC is, The description there for Kenobi sounds nothing like the description of his fight with Grievous. If they are both descriptions of Kenobi using Soresu, they are definitly night and day.

The ROTS point you make, that Dooku was surprised simply because Kenobi started using Ataru and Shien-Cho is a sound one. I interpret it differently, but I definitly don't have evidence to prove you wrong.

Darth Subjekt
Wow and what do you know... I said that they surprised him by using ploy forms like 4 days ago, but somehow that wasn't right until Advent said it? Hmm... as young OB1 would say, curious....

truejedi
oh, lest there be any confusion there, i meant, that there is no way for me to prove when Kenobi started LEARNING (i used the word, using, which was confusing i think) Soresu. I still contend he did not use Soresu against Dooku in AOTC.

Also, me agreeing the point is sound, but i interpret the ROTS, differently, was meant to be directed at both of u, since I had you both in mind when I wrote it.

Happy now big guy?


lol, plus advent is hotter than you man, what can you expect? " Boys laugh at girls even when they're not funny."

Darth Subjekt
Touche.


And the duo still wins. smile

Anakin4Ever
Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Episode 3 Obi-Wan wins here. He owned DS Anakin who was MUCH stronger then Count Dooku, who defeated the duo here. And he killed Grievous, who would have also beaten Episode 2 Obi-Wan and Anakin.
He didn't own DS Anakin, he just outsmarted him.

truejedi
he owned him.

Darth Subjekt
No he didn't. He got lucky that Anakin made a stupid move.

truejedi
lol, no need to go round again on that one subjekt. we must agree to disagree here. ( :

Darth Subjekt
No, that's coming from GL himself. "OB1 had an interesting string of success with luck at his side, which makes his line in ANH ironic and somewhat comical."

I remember that from a tv spot right after Sith came out.

truejedi
but did he say what feats were luck? I'm thinking it was a reference to his surviving the purge at the hand of the clones? Can your quote prove otherwise?

Darth Subjekt
Yea, it was in reference to the fight. That's what brought it up. I'm trying to find the clip cause I'm not going to write out the 6 minute interview. He also makes mention of the "so clumsy" remark to the blaster.

truejedi
"so uncivilized" you mean?

Darth Subjekt
Pardon me, yes. I was thinking of his line in ANH when I was typing that, lol.

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