Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

battle takes place in a large cage dome in a seedy par in mandripoor.....

crowds are cheering.... taking their seats getting ready for the main event.... making and placing bets eating popcorn and chucking beer......


http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/daken-vs-daredevil/377855/?page=last#reply_form


also out of curiosity what do u guys think of the comments on this link?

Daken, pretty hard.

IMO THE phermones should really do anything to DD abilities. Also IMO Daken is a great fighter but i'm gonna go with DD for the KO.

Pheremone control has very little to do with sight though.

It's just the people who write Daken who seem very confused about what it actually does.

I don't know what to make of Daken right now.. DD slightly ftw

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Pheremone control has very little to do with sight though.

It's just the people who write Daken who seem very confused about what it actually does.

IMO i assumed his phermones trick the senses of his enemies. From what I seem it's a mild hallucinogenic. Can't really trust your senses because everything is kinda going bonkers and what you think is real kinda isnt. But DD special sense should not be affected. Thats my take on it.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
IMO i assumed his phermones trick the senses of his enemies. From what I seem it's a mild hallucinogenic. Can't really trust your senses because everything is kinda going bonkers and what you think is real kinda isnt. But DD special sense should not be affected. Thats my take on it.

Pheremone control should be control of practically all bodily functions. If Stacy X was any indication, Daken should've been able to make Daredevil actually crap his pants.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Pheremone control should be control of practically all bodily functions. If Stacy X was any indication, Daken should've been able to make Daredevil actually crap his pants.
Yeha Idk if he has that much level of control most of the time. It seems a bit more limited than that.

hmmm... but if what u say is true that would be a amazing power! Crap you pants and (why not throw this in) orgasm as I stab you in the face. Don't think anyone would be able to crap their pants and orgasm at the same time without making themselves vulnerable to a hit.

on second thought... maybe Herc can do that.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Yeha Idk if he has that much level of control most of the time. It seems a bit more limited than that.

hmmm... but if what u say is true that would be a amazing power! Crap you pants and (why not throw this in) orgasm as I stab you in the face. Don't think anyone would be able to crap their pants and orgasm at the same time without making themselves vulnerable to a hit.

on second thought... maybe Herc can do that.

How do you think Stacy X made her living as a mutant prostitute?

Anyways, Daken seems to be mostly limited to messing with someone's emotions and perception. The latter being completely useless against someone using a radar sense like Daredevil. Regardless Daken's physical edge seems almost too great here, considering his ability to affect Daredevil's emotions.

Does Daken have a healing factor? Because if he does, then Daredevil dies.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
How do you think Stacy X made her living as a mutant prostitute?

Anyways, Daken seems to be mostly limited to messing with someone's emotions and perception. The latter being completely useless against someone using a radar sense like Daredevil. Regardless Daken's physical edge seems almost too great here, considering his ability to affect Daredevil's emotions.

Really the pheromones and effect the emotional state of someone? Thats pretty impressive if he can do this all at the same time and competently fight DD.

Physically Daken is all intents and purposes slightly superior to DD. But IMO DD is alot more skilled.

So IF the pheromones can seriously dampen DD fighting ability then he could lose. I should prob go look for some examples of this.

DD has fought people who tried to mess with his senses and won. Mysterio prepped for Daredevil but couldnt pull anything off. Daken does has a healing ability, but honestly it seems fairly mediocre. Daredevil should be able to win this one.

DD

I can't honestly say Daredevil is more skilled than Daken, who has been training hard with Romulus since he was able. The guy is 60+, he's got more combat experience than DD, and more skill.

Originally posted by KingD19
I can't honestly say Daredevil is more skilled than Daken, who has been training hard with Romulus since he was able. The guy is 60+, he's got more combat experience than DD, and more skill. what top tiers has daken beaten i can think of a few for DD

Deadpool, Wolverine, he beat Spidey for a while. He probably fought some other people I can't think of at the moment.

DD has beaten wolvie, captain america,black panther, IF etc etc
Btw i was talking about actually skilled people so minus spidey

Originally posted by thanos-prime
what top tiers has daken beaten i can think of a few for DD

Wolverine, Deadpool, and a group of X-Men; also he was humiliating Spider-man... uuuuuuuuuuntil he got electrocuted by a plot device.

He also kicked Shaw out a window after stabbing him, stalemated X-23, Pixie and Armor. Danced around Ares, took a hit from Bor, and held his own briefly against Pluto.

Well there ya go.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine, Deadpool, and a group of X-Men; also he was humiliating Spider-man... uuuuuuuuuuntil he got electrocuted by a plot device.

He also kicked Shaw out a window after stabbing him, stalemated X-23, Pixie and Armor. Danced around Ares, took a hit from Bor, and held his own briefly against Pluto. i didn't say held his own/got beat bye i said beat them and i said top tier martial artists

Originally posted by thanos-prime
i didn't say held his own/got beat bye i said beat them and i said top tier martial artists

You also said DD has beaten Wolverine...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You also said DD has beaten Wolverine... and he has twice..

Originally posted by thanos-prime
and he has twice..

He's choped him the throat once, and broken his mind control once. He's never beaten him.

i didnt realize punching some one and failing to kill or ko an opponent is considered a win now........

hmm.. i need to reevaluate my passed fights and historical wars

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He's choped him the throat once, and broken his mind control once. He's never beaten him. he went to sleep when he got chopped so that's 1 and he humiliated him in that other that's 2

oh well take out wolvie doesn't matter he still has more wins than daken

Originally posted by thanos-prime
he went to sleep when he got chopped so that's 1 and he humiliated him in that other that's 2

He wasn't even koed, he was on the ground for a few seconds. And he hit Wolverine once with a bar bell and knocked him onto a sword breaking his mind control. Neither of those is a "win"... neither of those where even a ko.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
oh well take out wolvie doesn't matter he still has more wins than daken

So does Dazzler...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So does Dazzler... what's your point the other guy said daken was more skilled so i asked for a list of dakens wins

Originally posted by thanos-prime
what's your point the other guy said daken was more skilled so i asked for a list of dakens wins

The point is that everyone has more wins than Daken... he's a new character.

However, Wolverine's coincided that Daken may be better then he is, which makes him better than Matt... depending on how good he is without the aid of his pheromones, which we can't say for sure.

i dont see DD winning this fight...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He wasn't even koed, he was on the ground for a few seconds. And he hit Wolverine once with a bar bell and knocked him onto a sword breaking his mind control. Neither of those is a "win"... neither of those where even a ko.




Daken's too much.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW



Daken's too much. why don't you think DD can beat him?

Originally posted by thanos-prime
why don't you think DD can beat him?

Pheromones.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pheromones. what could they do to him it won't affect his radar and that' all he really needs

Originally posted by thanos-prime
what could they do to him it won't affect his radar and that' all he really needs

Mr Fear's gas based on the pheromone works on him just fine, doesn't it?

Daken could make him laughing like a lunatic, for example. One good swipe would end it then.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
why don't you think DD can beat him?

Hes related to Wolverine.





Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pheromones.

Ive seen three fights were it did nothing or nearly nothing.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ive seen three fights were it did nothing or nearly nothing.

Then why don't you read some more comics with him?

He's messing with his foes' perception, everybody has a hard time tagging him. And one swipe is all he needs in this fight...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Mr Fear's gas based on the pheromone works on him just fine, doesn't it?

Daken could make him laughing like a lunatic, for example. One good swipe would end it then. im not aware of any pheromones ever working on his radar after all it is produced with magic so i can't see why they would correct me if im wrong

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Then why don't you read some more comics with him?

He's messing with his foes' perception, everybody has a hard time tagging him. And one swipe is all he needs in this fight...

I tell you what why dont you give me more examples because I suspect your exaggerating.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
im not aware of any pheromones ever working on his radar after all it is produced with magic so i can't see why they would correct me if im wrong

Radar ain't gonna help with overcoming paranoia, laugh attack or recklessness.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Then why don't you read some more comics with him?

He's messing with his foes' perception, everybody has a hard time tagging him. And one swipe is all he needs in this fight... if he hits and when daredevil starts using pressure points then what?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Radar ain't gonna help with overcoming paranoia, laugh attack or recklessness. im pretty sure his pheromones have not been shown to the extent your using them at

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I tell you what why dont you give me more examples because I suspect your exaggerating.

1st fight with Wolverine - all Logan did was grabbing his son's neck when he slipped on the blood and SCRATCHING his cheek when was talking. Daken won.

Fight with Deadpool - Wade connected only after Daken lost control. That was a one-trick pony, Akihiro no longer hates Logan 'cause he found out he wasn't responsible for Itsu's death. Daken's beaten DP nonetheless.

Spider-Man fight... Peter missed with impact web and guess who got hit first?

Originally posted by thanos-prime
if he hits and when daredevil starts using pressure points then what?

Pheromone manipulation =/= basic knowledge. Even H.A.M.M.E.R. file is incomplete.

Pressure points? It would take a lot of strikes to put him down. And Daken needs just one...

Originally posted by thanos-prime
im pretty sure his pheromones have not been shown to the extent your using them at

Read more comics with him then.

He did that to Cyber (paranoia, false sense of security, laugh attack), Ares, Thing (recklessness, both)...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1st fight with Wolverine - all Logan did was grabbing his son's neck when he slipped on the blood and SCRATCHING his cheek when was talking. Daken won.

Fight with Deadpool - Wade connected only after Daken lost control. That was a one-trick pony, Akihiro no longer hates Logan 'cause he found out he wasn't responsible for Itsu's death. Daken's beaten DP nonetheless.

Spider-Man fight... Peter missed with impact web and guess who got hit first?



Pheromone manipulation =/= basic knowledge. Even H.A.M.M.E.R. file is incomplete.

Pressure points? It would take a lot of strikes to put him down. And Daken needs just one...



Read more comics with him then.

He did that to Cyber (paranoia, false sense of security, laugh attack), Ares, Thing (recklessness, both)... It would take 1 pressure point to put him down and it's debatable to think the pheromones could work on him he has resisted stuff like them before

Originally posted by thanos-prime
It would take 1 pressure point to put him down and it's debatable to think the pheromones could work on him he has resisted stuff like them before

One pressure point? I wholeheartedly disagree. He has a healing factor.

==Pre-Fatal Attractions==

Wolverine vs. Shingen - did it it take just one nerve strike? Hell no.

Wolverine vs. Blood Shadow - again, it took a lot of them.

==Current lv healing==

Wolverine vs. Elektra - once the sais were removed, Logan was as good as new... proving that if she just poked him with them it would do nothing.

Wolverine vs. Echo - she just made him angry.



DD's not immune to pheromones. Even if he could overcome their effect, it would take time. And Matt doesn't have that kind of luxury in this fight.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
One pressure point? I wholeheartedly disagree. He has a healing factor.

==Pre-Fatal Attractions==

Wolverine vs. Shingen - did it it take just one nerve strike? Hell no.

Wolverine vs. Blood Shadow - again, it took a lot of them.

==Current lv healing==

Wolverine vs. Elektra - once the sais were removed, Logan was as good as new... proving that if she just poked him with them it would do nothing.

Wolverine vs. Echo - she just made him angry.



DD's not immune to pheromones. Even if he could overcome their effect, it would take time. And Matt doesn't have that kind of luxury in this fight. From what i have seen the pheromones don't work instantly and DD could take him out before being affected once he sees the wolvie comparison i don't they he would hesitate to break dakens neck

Originally posted by thanos-prime
From what i have seen the pheromones don't work instantly and DD could take him out before being affected once he sees the wolvie comparison i don't they he would hesitate to break dakens neck

Depends on the opponent. It took one whiff of the pheromones to affect Bullseye. Just saying.

DD isn't faster than him. And he'd have to be much, much faster in order to do what you said in such a short time.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Depends on the opponent. It took one whiff of the pheromones to affect Bullseye. Just saying.

DD isn't faster than him. And he'd have to be much, much faster in order to do what you said in such a short time. no he wouldn't Daken isn't the type to avoid an attack two pressure points too both arms then he snaps his neck

Originally posted by thanos-prime
no he wouldn't Daken isn't the type to avoid an attack two pressure points too both arms then he snaps his neck

What? Daken isn't the type to avoid an attack? Are you serious?

He dodged attacks from Logan, Deadpool, Thing, Ares, Spider-Man, Cyber (year 1959), Avalanche (UXM 513), Bullseye (UXM 514)... and you're saying he isn't the type to avoid an attack? Really?

He is not just gonna stand there and say "c'mon, hit me with all you got, my HF will just fix it". You confused him with someone else.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What? Daken isn't the type to avoid an attack? Are you serious?

He dodged attacks from Logan, Deadpool, Thing, Ares, Spider-Man, Cyber (year 1959), Avalanche (UXM 513), Bullseye (UXM 514)... and you're saying he isn't the type to avoid an attack? Really?

He is not just gonna stand there and say "c'mon, hit me with all you got, my HF will just fix it". You confused him with someone else. ok well they are of similar speed so DD should have no prob hitting him

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1st fight with Wolverine - all Logan did was grabbing his son's neck when he slipped on the blood and SCRATCHING his cheek when was talking. Daken won.

Fight with Deadpool - Wade connected only after Daken lost control. That was a one-trick pony, Akihiro no longer hates Logan 'cause he found out he wasn't responsible for Itsu's death. Daken's beaten DP nonetheless.

Spider-Man fight... Peter missed with impact web and guess who got hit first?




I didnt ask you who won. I was asking about examples of people tripping on pheremones. So far you seem to have only two examples.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
ok well they are of similar speed so DD should have no prob hitting him

Akihiro shouldn't have much problem either. Muramasa claws don't need to be backed up by much strength, he needs just to connect. Even a glancing shot would be dangerous and probably fatal, splicing Matt's ribs on the molecular level, for example. Some chi ability to control the bleeding, Elektra-esque? Ain't gonna work. These blades are magic and they block HF.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I didnt ask you who won. I was asking about examples of people tripping on pheremones. So far you seem to have only two examples.

What do you want? I've already listed some more examples in the same post.

About Spider-Man... the pheromones worked on him and SS wouldn't do jack if he used them in the mood-altering manner, which he CAN.

Look at Cyber. Laugh attack? Check. Distorted perception (so Daken could do his vanishing act)? Check. False sense of security? Check. Paranoia? Check. Friggin' heart attack? Check, check, check.

Then you have Ares and Thing acting mindlessly. Bullseye affected by one whiff of pheromones.

Ares (again) and even Venom manipulated into confronting FF.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


About Spider-Man... the pheromones worked on him and SS wouldn't do jack if he used them in the mood-altering manner, which he CAN.

Correct.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Look at Cyber. Laugh attack? Check. Distorted perception (so Daken could do his vanishing act)? Check. False sense of security? Check. Paranoia? Check. Friggin' heart attack? Check, check, check.


Exactly he only vanished once in the whole fight, what else. Serioulsy he was laughing because of the pheremones, what false sense of security. So now you're attributing everything to pheremones? Not sure of the heart attack had anything to do with Pheremones but i'll check.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Then you have Ares and Thing acting mindlessly. Bullseye affected by one whiff of pheromones.

Ares (again) and even Venom manipulated into confronting FF.

Not sure if all of those examples are good because it seems they may have been exposed to pheremones over a period of time.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Exactly he only vanished once in the whole fight, what else. Serioulsy he was laughing because of the pheremones, what false sense of security. So now you're attributing everything to pheremones? Not sure of the heart attack had anything to do with Pheremones but i'll check.

He was a noob then. That happened in year 1959, when he was inexperienced, before Romulus' training.

Yes, he was laughing because of the pheromones. Do I need to quote them or post the scans? I guess I have no credibility in your eyes 'cause I'm a Wolverine fan, the character you hate and despise ahah

*sigh*

(...) I can lull them into a false state of calm, I can elevate their feelings of joy... or I can feed their sense of panic and paranoia. Those who are weak... break.

Heart attack was the result of too much stress and strong emotions. Milo had a weak heart though.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not sure if all of those examples are good because it seems they may have been exposed to pheremones over a period of time.

Ben wasn't. And Venom got convinced pretty quickly.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He was a noob then. That happened in year 1959, when he was inexperienced, before Romulus' training.

Im talking about the fights in Wolverine Origins, they weren't in 1959.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Yes, he was laughing because of the pheromones. Do I need to quote them or post the scans? I guess I have no credibility in your eyes 'cause I'm a Wolverine fan, the character you hate and despise ahah

*sigh*

....you know what I just looked at it, and he didn't laugh once. Maybe I read it wrong.

I dont know man your not really doing a good job so far, no offence intended.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

(...) I can lull them into a false state of calm, I can elevate their feelings of joy... or I can feed their sense of panic and paranoia. Those who are weak... break.

Heart attack was the result of too much stress and strong emotions. Milo had a weak heart though.

That doesnt matter, none of that was shown in the Origins fights. No he had a hert attack because his heart was weak not because of any pheremones. Good Lord man there was even a page where they were talking about his heart and they were worried he would die before being arrested and while being arrested.


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Ben wasn't. And Venom got convinced pretty quickly.

I'll have to see for myself.

They had several fights in W:O. one of them in flashback, set in 1959.

Yes, Cyber had poor heart condition.
Yes, he got a heart attack.
Why did he got it? Because his system was pushed past limits when he started experiencing strong emotions.
The cause of said emotions? Daken's pheromones.

Originally posted by Survivor19
They had several fights in W:O. one of them in flashback, set in 1959.


Im not refering to those fights.

Originally posted by Survivor19

Yes, Cyber had poor heart condition.
Yes, he got a heart attack.
Why did he got it? Because his system was pushed past limits when he started experiencing strong emotions.
The cause of said emotions? Daken's pheromones.

Again it was stated that his heart was so bad he might even die while being arrested he didnt need pheremones to have heart attack, hell it damn well could have been because of the fighting he was doing. You cant assume it was the pheremones when physical actvity can cause a heart attack.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im talking about the fights in Wolverine Origins, they weren't in 1959.

Oh, first fight. It could be argued that he made him paranoid in that fight. "Get' im dad" moment.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
....you know what I just looked at it, and he didn't laugh once. Maybe I read it wrong.

I dont know man your not really doing a good job so far, no offence intended.

Dude, if you read all of his appearances in Origins and DW, I wouldn't have to educate you. All you're doing is questioning his abilities, nothing more.

Here. Satisfied?

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8190/pm2uqn.th.jpg

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That doesnt matter, none of that was shown in the Origins fights. No he had a hert attack because his heart was weak not because of any pheremones. Good Lord man there was even a page where they were talking about his heart and they were worried he would die before being arrested and while being arrested.

Originally posted by Survivor19
Yes, Cyber had poor heart condition.
Yes, he got a heart attack.
Why did he got it? Because his system was pushed past limits when he started experiencing strong emotions.
The cause of said emotions? Daken's pheromones.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I'll have to see for myself.

DW #77.

If the pheromones don't affect his radar sense DD wins.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Oh, first fight. It could be argued that he made him paranoid in that fight. "Get' im dad" moment.


No I dont think so.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Dude, if you read all of his appearances in Origins and DW, I wouldn't have to educate you. All you're doing is questioning his abilities, nothing more.

Here. Satisfied?

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8190/pm2uqn.th.jpg



No im not satisfied im not arguing that his pheremones work im arguing that they dont always work. You still have no evidence of pheremones working in the fights I mentioned.


LOL physical exercise can cause a heart attack but were assuming its pheremones?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again it was stated that his heart was so bad he might even die while being arrested he didnt need pheremones to have heart attack, hell it damn well could have been because of the fighting he was doing. You cant assume it was the pheremones when physical actvity can cause a heart attack.

Fighting? You're exaggerating. If the pheromones weren't involved, he wouldn't be stressed out. Oh and he has a pacemaker here. "Those who are weak... break".

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2882/wo32oroborosdcp028.th.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Fighting? You're exaggerating. If the pheromones weren't involved, he wouldn't be stressed out. Oh and he has a pacemaker here. "Those who are weak... break".

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2882/wo32oroborosdcp028.th.jpg

Oh well im talking about a different fight, not that one.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No I dont think so.

So Cyber is just that dumb?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No im not satisfied im not arguing that his pheremones work im arguing that they dont always work. You still have no evidence of pheremones working in the fights I mentioned.

Oh really? Then post some examples of him using pheromones and them having no effect. I'll wait.

He may not always use them, that doesn't mean they don't work.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL physical exercise can cause a heart attack but were assuming its pheremones?

He didn't overexert himself.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Oh well im talking about a different fight, not that one.

About their fight in WO #14, like I said, maybe he made Cyber paranoid, maybe not. Doesn't matter because we have evidence of him using pheromones against Burr in other instances.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
So Cyber is just that dumb?

Im not even sure if were refering to the same fight.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Oh really? Then post some examples of him using pheromones and them having no effect. I'll wait.

He may not always use them, that doesn't mean they don't work.


Im unable to post the scans of the fights im refering to but in those fights there was no proof of pheremones. It really doesnt matter becuase now you've provided more proof.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

He didn't overexert himself.

He did in the one im refering to. Anyway doesn't matter you've provided enough proof.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not even sure if were refering to the same fight.

This is the one you're familiar with (WO #14). Cyber witnessed Logan passing out from the blood loss. He knew Daken was responsible for that.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4610/wolverineorigins014003.th.jpg

IMO, he used pheromones and made him feel paranoid. It is not stated on panel though, so it's just my opinion... feel free to disagree.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im unable to post the scans of the fights im refering to but in those fights there was no proof of pheremones. It really doesnt matter becuase now you've provided more proof.



He did in the one im refering to. Anyway doesn't matter you've provided enough proof.

Yeah, his fight with Daken got interrupted by Logan and we all know what happened later.

Should've posted these scans earlier, my bad. Had no idea you knew about just one Cyber/Daken encounter.

Lol Alf. Stilt nice.