Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I mean, it's like this:

Anakin: Obi Wan I'm not leaving without you you're my BFF! No! I shouldn't kill Dooku he's unarmed!

Anakin: Padme, I love you and we can raise the baby without deceptions or anything I'm tired of it.

Palpatine: Jedi are just like sith.

Anakin: Palpatine, that's not true! Jedi are protectors of the peace! Sith are evil!

Palpatine: this sith dude could prevent others from dying!

Anakin: really...

Palpatine: I'm a sith lord! Join me and you'll save Padme!

Anakin: Gasp! You're evil! I wanna kill you! I'll report you to the council immediately!

Anakin: Don't kill Sidious! I need him! *cuts off Mace's hand*

Anakin: OK I'll be evil now

Sidious: Good. Now you're Vader. Go slaughter younglings.

Vader: Of course. *ruthlessly slaughters jedi*

Vader: I hate you Obi Wan even though I saved your life many times and you were the closest thing that I ever had to a father and I risked my life to save you only a few days ago!



Get it? He's good, and then turns evil FAR too quickly and without much reason. Anakin should be smarter than to listen to a sith.

Anakin was emo, nuff said.

it was a process... you did watch episode II, right? although the process is kinda obscure. >>. and well... what do you expect with only 3 movies?

weirdly, though - there seemed to be no dark-side-y tendencies in clone wars (new one) for anakin... mhmm

The "process" was very badly done.

Originally posted by queeq
The "process" was very badly done.

agreed. >>.

That's the stellar writing abilities of an aging billionaire.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's the stellar writing abilities of an aging billionaire.

he's getting rusty.

It needs a remake. The OT is *almost* perfect as it is. well, for me its perfect already, anyway..

Yeah, the prequels screwed the pooch on more than a few points. Anakins descent to the dark side being one of them. Funny Star Wars PSA here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tpW_I8-jt8

I have seen more dramatic and believable character twists in a 90 minute movie than in almost seven hours of PT Star Wars.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I mean, it's like this:

Anakin: Obi Wan I'm not leaving without you you're my BFF! No! I shouldn't kill Dooku he's unarmed!

Anakin: Padme, I love you and we can raise the baby without deceptions or anything I'm tired of it.

Palpatine: Jedi are just like sith.

Anakin: Palpatine, that's not true! Jedi are protectors of the peace! Sith are evil!

Palpatine: this sith dude could prevent others from dying!

Anakin: really...

Palpatine: I'm a sith lord! Join me and you'll save Padme!

Anakin: Gasp! You're evil! I wanna kill you! I'll report you to the council immediately!

Anakin: Don't kill Sidious! I need him! *cuts off Mace's hand*

Anakin: OK I'll be evil now

Sidious: Good. Now you're Vader. Go slaughter younglings.

Vader: Of course. *ruthlessly slaughters jedi*

Vader: I hate you Obi Wan even though I saved your life many times and you were the closest thing that I ever had to a father and I risked my life to save you only a few days ago!



Get it? He's good, and then turns evil FAR too quickly and without much reason. Anakin should be smarter than to listen to a sith.

I think its very clear in the movies, that he only did it to save Padme, of course he doesn't believe Sidious, he only does those stuff because he thinks he needs Sidious.
The scene on Mustafar, when he kills the Separatist council and then watches the lava and a single tear comes from his eye, you can see, that he knows what he has become, what he has done, but he was willing to pay any price to save Padme.

Originally posted by queeq
I have seen more dramatic and believable character twists in a 90 minute movie than in almost seven hours of PT Star Wars.

Why always so hateful towards the PT?

Surely there must be something positive you must say about it?

I can think of ten:

1. Liam Neeson

2. Ewan McGregor

3. Awesome lightsaber duels

4. Awesome ground and space battles

5. Decent to amazing CGI

6. Fantastic music

7. Maintaining a used universe feel in addition to a more pristine age.

8. Jango Fett

9. Darth Maul

10. YOUR TURN!

I really like Star Wars, and I find all of the films to be really enjoyable. This is just asking why Anakin is good and then turns bad within the next few minutes.

I love it to death.

Originally posted by queeq
I have seen more dramatic and believable character twists in a 90 minute movie than in almost seven hours of PT Star Wars.

Not to be rude or anything, but why are you the mod for a set of movies that you don't seem to like?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Not to be rude or anything, but why are you the mod for a set of movies that you don't seem to like?

oh, he likes it.

sometimes it just doesn't seem that way.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This is just asking why Anakin is good and then turns bad within the next few minutes.

I think after cutting off Mace Windu's arm and basically causing him to plummet to his death sealed the deal on him not wanting to be associated with the Jedi. That, and he felt Palpatine had the key to save Padme's life.

Don't forget he considered Palpatine as a mentor and a close friend. Just like Obi-Wan, he was the closest thing to a father Anakin had.

Originally posted by queeq
The "process" was very badly done.

In the movie yes, in the book NO it was done very, very well.

Too bad they didnt do it that way in the movie.

And dont pay any attention to Queeq, he's just cranky cause he misses me. flirt

True!

So because I like SW I cannot be disappointed about extremely bad elements. There are quite a number of good things about the PT, but the thing that I can't seem to get over is that Lucas had no limitations at all making the PT. And yet, he fails to make it a very good trilogy. The PT is all about Anakin's fall... he spends about seven hours telling that story... he makes one completely obsolete film (AOTC) and rushes the turn to the Dark Side in such a way that it loses all credibility. And this from the filmmaker that always used to say the effects were just tools in telling a story. And when he has unlimited power to make the PT, he fails at telling the story properly and submerges in a load of special effects. That's irony and a painful irony for a fan like me.

Agreed. yes

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
he's getting rusty.

It needs a remake. The OT is *almost* perfect as it is. well, for me its perfect already, anyway..

Yea, lets not go around giving George the idea to change more stuff in the OT up... I would say give the PT a remake, but he'd probably make it worse... Like an entire scene where Anakin and Jar Jar are talking philosophy...

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I think its very clear in the movies, that he only did it to save Padme, of course he doesn't believe Sidious, he only does those stuff because he thinks he needs Sidious.
The scene on Mustafar, when he kills the Separatist council and then watches the lava and a single tear comes from his eye, you can see, that he knows what he has become, what he has done, but he was willing to pay any price to save Padme.

Sooo... when Padme' dies, he decided to stay evil because... ?

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Yea, lets not go around giving George the idea to change more stuff in the OT up... I would say give the PT a remake, but he'd probably make it worse... Like an entire scene where Anakin and Jar Jar are talking philosophy...



Sooo... when Padme' dies, he decided to stay evil because... ?

scary...

...maybe he thought that there's nothing left for him anyway and he already messed everything up so he thought "well screw this" and finalized the deal with the dark side?

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Yea, lets not go around giving George the idea to change more stuff in the OT up... I would say give the PT a remake, but he'd probably make it worse... Like an entire scene where Anakin and Jar Jar are talking philosophy...



Now that I'd pay to see. I bet it's a lot funnier than the poop jokes.
Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Sooo... when Padme' dies, he decided to stay evil because... ?

Excellent point.

Originally posted by queeq
Now that I'd pay to see. I bet it's a lot funnier than the poop jokes.

Very true. But it'd probably come out something like:

Anakin: Jar Jar, what do you think about the ramifications the Jedi have on the common population, seeing as they are technically nothing more than a group of Vigilante Space Wizards? (Yes, I just pulled that out of my butt.)
Jar Jar: Mie dunno, Annie. (Jar Jar trips over a nearby blaster, causing it to fire into a nearby fuel cell, causing a chain-reacton explosion that blows out the entire wall, alerting the separatist forces. Anakin Joins battle reluctantly due to his newly confounded beliefs and Jar Jar runs around like an idiot, accidentally destroying the entire separatist force that was attacking them.)
Anakin: What have I done? (Falls to his knees and begins sobbing.)

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Very true. But it'd probably come out something like:

Anakin: Jar Jar, what do you think about the ramifications the Jedi have on the common population, seeing as they are technically nothing more than a group of Vigilante Space Wizards? (Yes, I just pulled that out of my butt.)
Jar Jar: Mie dunno, Annie. (Jar Jar trips over a nearby blaster, causing it to fire into a nearby fuel cell, causing a chain-reacton explosion that blows out the entire wall, alerting the separatist forces. Anakin Joins battle reluctantly due to his newly confounded beliefs and Jar Jar runs around like an idiot, accidentally destroying the entire separatist force that was attacking them.)
Anakin: What have I done? (Falls to his knees and begins sobbing.)

shock

We're all doomed. DOOMED. Jar Jar saves the day. what is the world coming to...

Jar Jar... George Lucas.... there are some interesting correlations.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I really like Star Wars, and I find all of the films to be really enjoyable. This is just asking why Anakin is good and then turns bad within the next few minutes.

That is an exaggeration. The roots of Anakin's eventual fall to the Dark side started right from when he was accepted to the Jedi Order, despite Yoda's fears about training him at his age, and the attachment he still felt to his mother.
Expanded universe material like 'Rogue Planet' by Greg Bear put down more root causes for his actions. But by the time Episode II came along, we see he's gotten arrogant in his prowess, and the council has gotten interested in indulging him because of his great talent. Only Obi Wan is concerned, because he's with him all the time.
Palpatine subtly arranges for Anakin to spend time with Padme as official business, starting the wheels of his plan in motion. The seeds of their eventual - and forbidden - secret marriage are planted.
Anakin comes to his mother's rescue too late, and kills the Tuskens in a rage that shocks and shames him later. It shows his self control is frayed when it comes to those close to him.
The rematch with Dooku in Episode III, he executes him in cold blood at Palpatine's request. Anakin is suddenly ashamed at this, but Palpatine confuses his thoughts on it, saying it was necessary and not the first time Anakin has killed for justifiable revenge (his mother.)
Knowing Anakin is having nightmares of Padme's death in childbirth, Palpatine starts dropping hints of secret Sith knowledge for preserving life, while beginning to disparage the reputation of the Jedi. He confuses Anakin's thinking of what should motivate him - "The Jedi are selfless. They think only of others" states Anakin. Later he will be twisting that into thinking by saving Padme he IS being selfless. And by saving Palpatine from being 'killed' by Mace Windu, that he is following a moral code he thinks the Jedi are not following, believing they are taking over the Republic illegally.
It's once he chops off Mace Windu's hand, that there is no going back for Anakin. He is fully in Palpatine's thrall.
So no, it's not just suddenly. It's something that has been worked on since Episode I, when Palpatine greeted the the young Anakin and declared "We will watch your career with great interest."

After Anakin chops Mace's arm off (which was done because he thought he needed him, that and that "it's not the jedi way" to kill an unarmed prisoner) it pretty much was no turning back after that because, well, you think about it! You just helped a sith lord kill one of the jedi council! The jedi won't be very impressed! Straight after that, Palpatine goes "execute order 66" and turns every single clone trooper into stormtroopers, pretty much sealing the deal, THEN Anakin has a lightsaber fight to the death with his own mentor, the closest thing he ever had to a father who leaves him to die on the side of a river of lava! To top it all off, his one true love dies! I think thats enough to turn Ned Flanders evil!

Nuff said.

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Sooo... when Padme' dies, he decided to stay evil because... ?

Because there was nothing left for him but Sidious.

Originally posted by Hybris
Because there was nothing left for him but Sidious.

Palpatine exploited his long-unfulfilled need for a father figure.
If Qui-Gon had lived, maybe he could have done it, and trained Anakin in a different way that would have kept him on the light side. But Qui-Gon was a maverick with different ideas than the council. Because Obi Wan wasn't willing to play father, just teacher (and a rather unyielding one) Palpatine saw his opportunity to get into Anakin's head years in advance.

Lucas is a big kid at heart, that's all. I've said a million times on here. The Star Wars generation changed with the release of the PT. It was the parents who passed SW on to their kids, and the kids are the ones who idolized all the SW merchandise and toy lightsabers. Yes the adults still cherished the older movies, but in 1999, that generation of parents were kids when the OT came out, and the PT was for a new generation of kids. I think that's why we get a lot of childish elements from these movies. Lucas did the best he could, his devotion and love for his creation means he would not try to intentional mess it up, just as parents would not intentionally try to raise their kids up the wrong way.

That's not to say GL didn't have to make a movie that was kiddy. They were kiddy but I do believe they appealed to adults as well.

He should have followed obi wan's orders and seek help . I saw this in the cinema everthing does happen too fast

IMHO I think EP1 should of had the events of episode 2 and 1 combined so one half how anakin was found and trained and the other about the beginning of the CW. EP2 woulda been about the clone wars and explain anakins descent to the dark side an EP 3 be about the end of the clone wars , and the beggining of anakins transformation woulda probade things simpler

Another thought what if anakin after being " Vaderised(sorry!)" and palpy/emperor revealed padmes death he just left and didn't become vader

Vader: nooooooo! Ok I'm leaving is that the way out?
Palpy: heheheh- wait what NOOOOOOOOO my plan is ruined!!!!! And padme didn't die I just tried making u more evil!!! But she died but gave birth to twins!!!! This is more of a backlash then the vision I had of ewoks beating my best men!!

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Lucas is a big kid at heart, that's all. I've said a million times on here. The Star Wars generation changed with the release of the PT. It was the parents who passed SW on to their kids, and the kids are the ones who idolized all the SW merchandise and toy lightsabers. Yes the adults still cherished the older movies, but in 1999, that generation of parents were kids when the OT came out, and the PT was for a new generation of kids. I think that's why we get a lot of childish elements from these movies. Lucas did the best he could, his devotion and love for his creation means he would not try to intentional mess it up, just as parents would not intentionally try to raise their kids up the wrong way.

That's not to say GL didn't have to make a movie that was kiddy. They were kiddy but I do believe they appealed to adults as well.

Nevertheless, the OT made more sense. And adults loved it in the 70s too.

As to what roughrider was saying obi wan did fail and didn't try to play father but it woulda messed up the films as anakin never wouldve turned to the dark side

"Every SINGLE jedi is now an enemy of the republic..."


Obi wan was single.
Yod was single.
Mace was single...

Anakin had Padme and who knows what Sidious was into?

I have stuck with this theory for 5 years and Im not letting it go.


Anakin had a clear movation for killing children ( all single ), as well as trying to kill Obi Wan.

Even the stormtroopers let Bail go once they realized he was not single. The kid who attacked them however was another case...
Not to mention Bail was never a jedi to begin with...

So.

Anakin joined sidious to gain power over death.
Every unmarried jedi would oppose his plans to the end.

+ How was Anakin supposed to know what the power over death would take ( if there ever was one to begin with ) ?

Surely its not the best time to start questioning orders once you have signed up with the Evil.

Originally posted by InfernoJG95
As to what roughrider was saying obi wan did fail and didn't try to play father but it woulda messed up the films as anakin never wouldve turned to the dark side

Obi Wan didn't fail exactly - he fulfilled the role he thought he should have performed with Anakin; teacher and mentor, not parental figure. He considered that to be Anakin's issue to deal with. And he wasn't getting any backing from the Jedi Council on what he thought were problems with Anakin's character. They have decided years earlier to follow this 'experiment' to wherever it led.

Originally posted by Sesse
"Every SINGLE jedi is now an enemy of the republic..."


Obi wan was single.
Yod was single.
Mace was single...

Ki adi mundi wasn't he hade seven wives and they were behea- oh that's henry the eighth

Hehehe...

I thought Revenge was one of the best of the SW series, but I did have an issue with the fact that Anakins move to the Dark Side was too quick.

On the other hand, some of the time frames are uncertain, so I guess we will have to imagine how it happened in the gaps.

In my opinion, the whole movie felt like it took place in a two or three days. We never know just how much time passes exactly, but that's how it felt.

So what feels more rushed, then?
Anakin's fall to the dark side, or Luke's Jedi training in the OT?

Well, Anakin's fall to the dark side IMO.

If I'm not mistaken, Luke's training in the OT was crafted throughout the entire 3 films. According to Yoda...he wasn't technically a Jedi until he faced Vader at the end of ROTJ...."then, only then, a Jedi will you be." That was his final test.

After he beats Vader..."I am a Jedi, like my father before me." The arc is complete.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
."I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Best freakin line in the entire saga imho.

Star Wars Insider 84 - Ask the Master Q & A - pg. 40

Q: "How much time passes in ROTS? Some people online say it's months because Padme is only just pregnant when she meets Anakin and has children by the end, but I don't think that's right. Is there any official word on this?"

A: "...nine days. DAY ONE starts with the space battle and ends with Anakin's initial dreams of Padme's death. Morning of DAY TWO, Anakin consults with Yoda. By day's end, he hears of Darth Plageuis from Palpatine at the opera. On DAY THREE, on a bright and sunny afternoon, Obi-Wan is dispatched from Coruscant once the Jedi Council learns that Grievous is on Utapau. DAY FOUR, Obi-Wan arrives on Utapau and Anakin discovers the truth about Palpatine. That night, the Republic is sunk as Anakin makes a pact with the devil in Palpatine's office. In the early hours of DAY FIVE, Bail Organa leaves Coruscant and logs alot of interstellar mileage as he picks up Yoda and Obi-Wan. By that night, Palpatine declares himself Emperor. The next bright sunny day is DAY SIX, when Obi-Wan visits Padme to determine where Anakin went. It's sunset when he sneaks aboard her vessel. DAY SEVEN is the day of the duel on Mustafar and between Yoda and Palpatine. DAY EIGHT has Padme giving birth, while Vader is rebuilt. On DAY NINE, we see Naboo during the day as the Tantive IV arrives to deliver Padme's body. The remainder of DAY NINE is hazy since the movie switches to a more stylized depiction of closure across the galaxy. The funeral, the delivery of Luke and Leia, the Emperor and Vader admiring the Death Star may happen at different times and are gathered together editorially."

OMG... nine days.... Talk about a rush job.

And it took Anakin only 3 days to turn. The WHOLE thing was so unbelievable - two whole movies to set up a bad dream about Padme.

That coment is ridiculous, RotS is my favourite star wars film and now they say it only takes place in 9 days?
That's not right, If they in least were planning this to take place during 9 days, with the fan reaction of how it was rushed i think that they coul change the events to take place in the time of some months, it wouldn't make much difference and would make us fans happier.

Well, it's not NOW they say it takes place in 9 days...it was THEN, when they wrote the screenplay, that they said it took place in 9 days. Your saying that if they were planning it to be a 9 day period and they knew fan reaction would be that it was rushed, that they should've changed the events to take place in monthly increments? I kinda think that comment is ridiculous (no offense) and I think that would've made MUCH difference. If they were gonna do that - they'd have to change the story around so it took place over a period of months - they might as well start over from scratch - which I wished they did...ROTS was a huge disappointment.

And the fans are divided once again.

Do days even exist in a galaxy far far away? lol

Good point actually!

What with all the hopping to and fro planets... it seems like they get beamed over, like a trip to Utapau takes no time at all...

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Do days even exist in a galaxy far far away? lol What do you mean?

OMG...

Days arer defined on our planet by the time the earth rotates around its axis. But when you're not stuck to one planet: what exactly is a day?

What exactly is a day? The time it takes for a planet to rotate around it's axis OR 24 hours. Just because someone leaves a planet - time doesn't stop. Anakin was on Coruscant for most of ROTS. Use THAT to gauge a timeframe. The fact that Han said in ANH that they would be reaching Alderaan by 02:00 hours seems to indicate they operate on a 24 hour universal clock, like us.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Well, it's not NOW they say it takes place in 9 days...it was THEN, when they wrote the screenplay, that they said it took place in 9 days. Your saying that if they were planning it to be a 9 day period and they knew fan reaction would be that it was rushed, that they should've changed the events to take place in monthly increments? I kinda think that comment is ridiculous (no offense) and I think that would've made MUCH difference. If they were gonna do that - they'd have to change the story around so it took place over a period of months - they might as well start over from scratch - which I wished they did...ROTS was a huge disappointment.
No, the events don't seem to take place in 9 days, they could left it as it is but they could say that it takes place in some months or one, simple.

Well, it OFFICIALLY takes place over a 9 day period. It may not seem that way, but if you pay attention to the rise and setting of the sun - it definitely takes place in 9 days. How does it not seem like 9 days to you? Is it just that fact that so much happens in such a short period of time?

THe 9 days just make it feel even more rushed and incredible... but that's the way it is.

Originally posted by queeq
OMG...

Days arer defined on our planet by the time the earth rotates around its axis. But when you're not stuck to one planet: what exactly is a day?

Exactly.

But I'll go ask Supershadow just to make sure.

I would say it was rushed. Even through Palaptine manipulates him throughout the films and then uses the Padme thing to 'hook' him he never really gave Anakin a credible reason to turn on the Jedi. The only antagonism that was played out well was with Mace Windu, who did not grant him the title of Master. Thus causing the mother of all sulks.

Obi- Wan: no reason to hate him since he offered nothing but friendship and guidance to Anakin, not to mention freeing him from slavery.

Yoda: Nothing but guidance and understanding , can't see the deception here.

Mace Windu: Little bit of anatagonism after the Jedi Master snub but thats such a pithy reason especially when he mellows down and has pleasant dialogue with Windu later on in the film.

Padme: Yes the girl he loves, the girl he wants to save from dying. So he strangles her over a slight misconception. Very strange...

The Younglings: After being a sudden convert to the Sith he instantly has no qualms about killing kids. Yet wants to save the life of his girlfriend... by inexplicably killing kids...

Palpatine gives no reasons for him betraying any of the above , other than the ' I am being victimised by the Jedi, help me !' excuse. Of course Anakin didn't really consider the fact that any of the past two films events could have killed Padme and Palpatine was the orchestrator of everything beforehand, even the death of Qui'Gon.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
The Younglings: After being a sudden convert to the Sith he instantly has no qualms about killing kids. Yet wants to save the life of his girlfriend... by inexplicably killing kids...

With Padme being pregnant herself.... go figure.

And yes there is no character motivation in all this. Or as someone once said about the PT: characters act in a certain way because the plot requires them to. Anakin HAS to be evil so he has to do evil things like killing kids and strangling his girlfriend.
That fact taht all these acts come from nowhere in the character's motivations proves the point.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Exactly.

But I'll go ask Supershadow just to make sure.

Yes yes.... the Oracle you must ask!

everything can be change... including anakin, decision in this life.

umm anakin did the bussiness with padme 9 months before btw just before he left again to fight in the clone wars

Pretty much everybody who has issues with the prequels points this out. Guess the better guy who does this is Redlettermedia lol.

Originally posted by queeq
With Padme being pregnant herself.... go figure.

And yes there is no character motivation in all this. Or as someone once said about the PT: characters act in a certain way because the plot requires them to. Anakin HAS to be evil so he has to do evil things like killing kids and strangling his girlfriend.


This I agree completely. The biggest flaw in the PT's story was lack of motivation and forced plot. The plot forced Anakin and Obi-Wan to fight on a pointless planet that looked cool because the back of a toy box 20 years ago said Vader got his injuries due to lava burns. Yes, I love Mustafar but....well...I've been down this road many a times on my thoughts of it. lol

In AOTC, I get so frustrated when people say that the scene where Anakin's talking about the Tusken Raiders to Padme was bad. In all honesty, I thought that was his best performance between both AOTC and ROTS. His character had perfect motivation in that film to slaughter the raiders because they were responsible for his mother's death....and his reaction "They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them." was in my opinion, the first time we see some actual "real" character development and great acting instead of it being manufactured. He delivered those lines with hate in his eyes, and rage in his voice, and I think its the best scene in the entire movie. I don't get how else Hayden was supposed to do that scene. I guess people would have preferred that he sang a lullaby instead.

The bad guys are whiny teens at first...

Originally posted by Sith Master X
This I agree completely. The biggest flaw in the PT's story was lack of motivation and forced plot. The plot forced Anakin and Obi-Wan to fight on a pointless planet that looked cool because the back of a toy box 20 years ago said Vader got his injuries due to lava burns. Yes, I love Mustafar but....well...I've been down this road many a times on my thoughts of it. lol

In AOTC, I get so frustrated when people say that the scene where Anakin's talking about the Tusken Raiders to Padme was bad. In all honesty, I thought that was his best performance between both AOTC and ROTS. His character had perfect motivation in that film to slaughter the raiders because they were responsible for his mother's death....and his reaction "They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them." was in my opinion, the first time we see some actual "real" character development and great acting instead of it being manufactured. He delivered those lines with hate in his eyes, and rage in his voice, and I think its the best scene in the entire movie. I don't get how else Hayden was supposed to do that scene. I guess people would have preferred that he sang a lullaby instead.

The real problem of that scene is not Anakin or Hayden. The problem of this particluar scene is Padme: why tf does she fall in love with a guy like this? And yet, this appears to be the scene that sets their relationship in motion. This is the moment where a smart girl like PAdme would say: stay away from this guy....

(Especially after whining a lot about his master... )

Uh cause he was hot! Whatssamatta with you?

Anakin- "I slaughtered them like animals!"
Padme thinking- *I just LOVE bad boys*

But the Tusken raiders aren't human as far as I know. Maybe that's why Padme didn't care so much. They're pretty much like animals as Anakin said.

If I were Padme, I probably wouldn't have blamed Anakin for killing them. Jedi Younglings on the other hand...a completely different story. As soon as Obi-Wan told her that in ROTS, she shouldn't have thought twice about going to Mustafar to get Anakin to "come back while he still can."

"Not Anakin...he couldn't! I don't believe you." Whatever...as if Obi-Wan would come over just to lie to you. lol

Maybe Obi Wan wanted a piece of Padme if ya catch my drift

Originally posted by Sith Master X
But the Tusken raiders aren't human as far as I know. Maybe that's why Padme didn't care so much. They're pretty much like animals as Anakin said.

So what? The Senate is full of non-humans. I doubt Padme is for an all-human universe. They were sentient creatures and Anakin slaughtered them like animals. Alarm bells should be going off. When Anakin makes a joking remark about dictatorship, Padme is shocked. But when he goes out to slaughter some race, well... then it's fine coz he's supposedly hot and a bad boy... It just doesn't make sense at all.

Originally posted by queeq
So what? The Senate is full of non-humans. I doubt Padme is for an all-human universe. They were sentient creatures and Anakin slaughtered them like animals. Alarm bells should be going off. When Anakin makes a joking remark about dictatorship, Padme is shocked. But when he goes out to slaughter some race, well... then it's fine coz he's supposedly hot and a bad boy... It just doesn't make sense at all.

His hatred towards the Sand People was confusing, yes, they killed his mother but the way he went on about about them (and hacked them all down) suggested he had some underlying hatred of them, which was never explored in TPM. Maybe he got sick of them taking pot-shots at him in his pod-racing days!

On another tangent I never understood why Anakin didn't buy his mothers freedom after the events of Phantom Menace, I mean he's in with Queen Amidala and the Jedi, why not go back and rescue his mother?

Because the plot requires him to get back in the following movie, in order to butcher some life forms?

Sounds about right.

Originally posted by queeq
So what? The Senate is full of non-humans. I doubt Padme is for an all-human universe. They were sentient creatures and Anakin slaughtered them like animals. Alarm bells should be going off. When Anakin makes a joking remark about dictatorship, Padme is shocked. But when he goes out to slaughter some race, well... then it's fine coz he's supposedly hot and a bad boy... It just doesn't make sense at all.

That's a good point, but these are still the creatures responsible for his mother's death. I don't think it's right to kill someone who has done you wrong so to speak, but I can justify their anger and rage toward something that recklessly killed a loved one of yours if its of another race or species. If a hound of wolves killed a close friend of mine, I'd have no problem shooting those damn things to the ground until its out of it's misery. I also wouldn't expect people to look at me as some sort of murderer afterward for killing a pack of vicious animals that have done harm to others.

Unless you were a priest, or a monk or a Jedi. A slightly bit more could be expected from people like that.

That was Episode 1 and 2. His review of the third was just released right before New Years.

Look, I'll admit, the guy is funny. There were so many moments of his Episode II review that had me in tears laughing so hard, like when he shows you the brochure titled "So you want your child to become a Jedi Knight" and the book shows Qui-Gon getting stabbed, then a bunch of Youngling lying dead on the floor. Lots of other things that were hysterical as well.

He makes some really valid points about the war seeming to have no consequences...and I especially agreed with him that the Lightsaber being a universal weapon used by all sorts of alien races defeats the purpose of the weapon because these aliens have features on them that would make using the sword a personal risk to the their own bodies.

However, a bunch of his complaints are just simply looking into things far too much, failing to acknowledge that it's just a sci-fi movie, and also failing to ackowledge that some of the problems he finds here, existed in the OT as well...yes, even the Empire Strikes back.

He talks about how convenient it is that Anakin doesn't get struck by a ship while he's falling through Coruscant, and thus, it suspends the belief of the situation. Ok, good point. Having said that, you can say the same thing about Luke's fall in Empire and how he conveniently lands in an air shaft...and then Leia all of the suddenly "conveniently" becomes force sensative and can hear Luke calling for help. Wonderful!

I have no problem acknowledging that the PT has several flaws...there were several missed opportunities, and from a filmmaking standpoint, there aren't as good as the originals. Having said that, it doesn't take away from my being able to like the films for what they are either, because like I said....I can point out numerous "flaws" from the originals too...something that people pass off as being "nearly perfect."

ROTS gets ridiculed for Vader's "noooo" at the end, but Luke's even more horrifying delivery in Empire gets compltely brushed off because that film is just the bestest thing and is just so much betterer dan da prequels. I could make a gigantic list of how many things people complain about out the newer ones, can be applied to the older ones as well.

I better go and wtach Plinkett's review of EpIII then.

While Lucas gives many reasons for why Anakin would find the Dark Side appealing, the change still wasn't believable. The main reason why a Jedi or any being would leave the Jedi for the Sith is to gain more power for himself or herself. While it is believable that Anakin is a self-centered and selfish person when it came to those close with him like his mother and Padme, it is not believable for him to go over to the Dark Side because he has been manipulated by Palpatine into believe the Dark Side has this kind of power. Anakin's initial reaction to Palpatine being a Sith Lord and manipulating the war was more believable. His reaction to stop Windu from killing Palpatine was believable. His reaction to kill the Sand people is believable and does not make him a bad person overall.

But those who defend the films saying that there signs of him going to the Dark Side are forgetting Anakin's initial reaction to Palpatine revealing that he is a Sith Lord. Anakin trusted Palpatine because he believed he was serving the Republic and the Seperatists are the bad guys. When Palpatine reveals that he is not who he says he is, that means that Anakin himself has been manipulated by Palpatine and feels so. Therefore, why would he continue trusting him regarding anything else including all that talk about "Being able to save Padme from death"?

If Anakin was made out to be someone who wanted to control the Republic by going into politics one day, then his turn would be more believable. But he didn't seem particularly interested in politics and even his views expressed in Episode 2 regarding the inefficiency of democracy doesn't mean that he wants to rule the galaxy himself like Darth Vader in episode 4-5 wants to.

Yes, Anakin says in Episode 2 after his mother's death that he will even learn one day to stop people from dying so his interest in the power when he hears of it in Episode 3 is believable. But in my opinion, he would only be interested in that power, and not necessarily turn into a Sith to learn that power.

He was still a good person albeit immature and selfish, but people just don't turn bad like that. It's more like when someone reveals themselves as being bad, it's more like we weren't able to see how they were bad to begin with.

That is why Dooku turning Sith is way more believable than Anakin. Dooku was into politics and gaining more power whereas Anakin seemed more like an employee about to get fired because he was not able to sacrifice having a wife for the Jedi Order. His character and his circumstances suggested that he would be kicked out of the Jedi Order for what he was doing. Killing the younglings was not in his character. Those younglings did not harm Padme or his mother like the Tusken Sand people.

Bottom line is that Anakin wouldn't keep trusting Palpatine after learning the truth. He was young and naive, but I don't believe he was really that stupid. Selfish and arrogant, but not evil and wanting more power for himself.

That and the ridiculous build up to the conversion: finding out Palpy is a Sith, reprot him, want to come along to fight, go after Mace, kill Mace, feel sorry for the kill, join Palpy... Ridiculous.

Yeah the "Padme will die without my help" BS of Palp's was the was lynchpin.

A grim yet truthful portrayal of conflict of interest...

And then saying immediately after Anakin's conversion: oh yeah, sorry, I can't save Padme from death but if we try really really hard, hey we might... ya never know...


RI

DI

CU

LO

US

!!

I agree.

I guess Palpatine was covering his own ass, knowing that Padme would die and Anakin would blame himself.
(Which was helped along with the "It seems that in your anger, you killed her." bit.)

A real Darth Vader would have cut him down there and then.

Making it "Always three there are.."

Vader plus two halves of Palpatine.

Quite.

Anakin's move to stop Windu from killing Palpatine was impulse, i'm sure he didn't want windu to die but immediately after he was responsible and pretty much obligated to follow this path out of an impulse decision. Which all played out exactly as Palpatine wanted.

But I agree with the OP that going off to kill younglings in the next scene is a hell of a transition.

I never really understood his motivations for turning to begin with.
It seems there are two main reasons for turning 1) To gain power in the Dark Side in order to become powerful enough to save Padme and 2) because the Jedi tried to assassinate the Chancellor so they were trying to take over. Now the movie sets up both of them but things in the movie seems to contradict these.

Reason 1 is VERY confusing but here goes:

Ok. So we have Anakin who is scared to lose his wife because of a dream he had. Ok got it.
Next, Sidious tells him that an old Sith Lord knew how to stop people from dying because he was really "wise". Ok.

Next, Sidious tells him that he is a Sith Lord and Anakin gets pissed. Since, Anakin is on the side of the Republic here and hates the Separatists, (calling Grievous a monster) he now knows the true leader of the Separatists. Because: Dooku was the leader of the Separatists before he died. He was a Sith Lord. Sidous is also a Sith Lord. Ding.ding.ding. Sidious is the leader of the Separatists. A TRAITOR to the Republic.

Next, Anakin turns him in to Mace Windu, knowing that they will try to arrest him.
Mace is standing over Palpatine, and Palpatine says he has the power to save Padme.

Next, Anakin chooses to cut off Mace Windu's arm and saves Palpatine purely motivated by the idea of saving Padme.

Anakin feels bad and says "What have I done?" in horror of his actions. This tells us that he probably acted on impulse and didn't really want Mace Windu to die.

Palpatine has said that he had the "POWER" to save Padme, so its either some dark side knowledge Sidous knows, or he is powerful enough in the darkside to do it (power) or he is simply powerful enough period and the dark side is just a faster way to get power. Which is it? Who knows.
We don't know and Anakin doesn't know. But he has to believe its one of these yet we are never told which one.

Then immediately says "I'll do whatever you ask". I never understood why he said this for two reasons.

If he thinks its dark side knowledge:
1) Why doesn't he try to force Palps to talk about the way to save Padme right then and there. This guy is the most desperate guy in the galaxy, you would think that he would do anything to get Palps to talk immediately about this dark side knowledge since his wife is going to give birth in a few hours.

2) Why does he feel he needs to follow Palps orders?
Is he going to do Palpatine's bidding in exchange for the knowledge from Palps to save Padme?

Or
Maybe its a "power"? Anakin needs to become powerful in the dark side or powerful in general to be able to save people right?

But no, because Palpatine tells him the way to save someone is a 'secret' implying that its some kind of knowledge. Right?

But he also says that "if they work together they can discover the secret". Ok. Here is where one of the biggest flaws in his turn comes out. Palps just admitted that he doesn't know how to save Pame's life. Anakin has no reason to follow Sidious now. Only some vague promise that they will "discover the secret". Why would he trust Sidious in this aspect? Why? Where are they going to discover it from?? He isn't asking the questions that are appropriate to his goals. Yet he is ABSOLUTELY desperate to reach his goal of obtaining the ability to save Padme. It doesn't really make sense.

He then pledges himself or whatever. He is now a Sith Lord.
So the fact that Sidious is the leader of the Separatists completely goes over his head. He only cares about saving Padme. He could give a rats a** about any type of politics right now. However, he doesn't really have any loyalties to Sidous either since again he is just interested in saving Padme and could give a rats a** any loyalties to a Sith.

Then Sidious guesses that Anakin is the only one that knows Sidious is a Sith and Mace went to arrest him. Despite him having no idea that this is true and no matter how much it doesn't make sense that Mace wouldn't have told anyone else. (But since this is a movie where the plot rules over sense it happens). Note, since this is true, this also establishes that all the other Jedi knew nothing of the "assassination attempt" and thus were NOT accomplices to the act; this becomes important later.

Palpatine then claims that once the Jedi know what has happened they will kill both Vader and Sidious ok.

But then he claims that the Jedi are going to kill the Senators. WTH?? He just pulled this out of his ass. Why in the world would the Jedi kill the Senators? Why?? Why?? Why??

Then like a complete idiot Vader agrees. Again, why?? What reason would the Jedi have according to what Vader knows to kill the Senate? This just doesn't make sense, AT ALL. Also, why is Vader talking about the Jedi now? Wasn't he all worried about Padme just a second ago? and wanted to find out the ability to save her? Yes, right? So why isn't Vader asking question like: "What about saving Padme?", "Can we start 'discovering the secret now'?" "Yeah I don't care about the Jedi I just want to save Padme... Can you please teach me NOW since Padme is going to give birth in a few hours, PLEASE?!?" But no, what Vader is thinking about changes all of a sudden.

So Palpatine says they must kill all the Jedi now because he said so. And they are enemies of the Republic. Vader says he understands and agrees to killing all the Jedi. This makes no sense at all. 1) Sidous is a traitor to the republic as the leader of the seperatists 2) The Jedi have no reason to take over the Senate 3) Vader doesn't give a rats a** about who is an enemy of the Republic he just wants to save Padme. 4) They just discussed that none of the other Jedi knew what happened or that Sidious is a Sith Lord so they were not accomplices to anything. 5) He agrees so easily to kill the people he has known his whole life even Obi-Wan who is like a brother to him. WTH?!?

I could already hear people arguing that the Jedi tried to assassinate the Chancellor so it looked like they were taking over BUT due to 4) from above this doesn't make sense. Also 3) from above, Vader doesn't care about politics or the republic or anything besides saving Padme so it doesn't make sense he would care about a political reason to slaughter all the Jedi.

See here the shift has changed. Lucas has now introduced the the idea that the Jedi are the enemies of the Republic from nowhere and that Vader agrees and actually cares about it to kill them. So ultimately what Lucas gives is that Vader kills them not because he is evil but because of a political reason. This is so out of character to Vader right now and to the events that just happened like 2 minutes ago.

This is where the motivations of Vader are not made clear.

Did he turn to save Padme? But then why would he kill the Jedi? He could kill the Jedi because he is a Sith, but he wouldn't really care to kill Jedi immediately he would only care to save Padme right? The whole reason he turned for Padme is quickly forgotten. This makes no sense at all.

Palpatine then orders Vader to go to the Jedi temple and kill all the Jedi, catching them all off guard. Why would Vader do this? Who knows how long this could take and Padme gives birth in only a few hours. Why waste all this time killing Jedi for no reason instead of 'discovering the secret' to save Padme. Vader is a complete idiot for not ever questioning Sidious on this. Lucas completely fails at developing a character who has can think.

Sidious then tells him that he must show no mercy and only then will Vader become powerful enough to save Padme. Presumably because the more hate and anger he has the more powerful he will become. So is that the key to saving Padme; becoming powerful?? Wait, first it was a dark side knowledge by Plagueis, then it was a power by Sidoius, but then it was a secret (implying some type of unknown knowledge), but now its simply becoming 'powerful enough'? Sidious keeps changing the goals posts and Vader never questions this. Why?? Does Vader really want to save Padme?

So I guess Vader now has motivation to kill the Jedi so he can become more powerful right?

But, then Vader asks about all the other Jedi spread out across the galaxy, like if he personally wants all the Jedi dead. This isn't about gaining power, because killing them personally would take far too long and Padme gives birth shortly. So why does he point out these Jedi to Sidous? Does HE want all the Jedi dead? You would think that he would be doing this reluctantly and would feel sorry about it (*cough* Windu *cough) but he is almost eager to do it.

Then Sidous reveals that he knows where all the Separatists are (*cough* Traitor! *cough*). You would think that he would at least make up an excuse that he knows exactly where the enemy is but since Vader is a complete idiot nah no point.

He orders Vader to a far away planet and gives him two tasks. Padme is going to give birth in a few hours and he is wasting all this time killing everyone. What happened to 'discovering the secret'? Why doesn't he care about Padme anymore? Why does he care about politics all of a sudden? How and when does he plan to save Padme from dying? None of this makes sense.

Then after all of this, when Palpatine reveals that Padme has died (the entire reason (supposedly) why Anakin turned into Darth Vader, he just accepts it and moves on.

Remember, the ENTIRE POINT of the Prequel Trilogy was to show Vader's fall to the Dark Side. But we never know the real reason he turns and kills all the Jedi. And the movie is an incoherent mess that it only confuses the whole mess. Is George Lucas the worst writer or what?

Geez, that took forever, I am never going to write this much for something non-school related again.

Charlie

Charlie... you just summed up the most extensive list ever in showing how much Vader's turns sucks balls the size of Mars... I;ve argued this exact sequence like you did several times, just not so long winde..err... extensive ( j/k).

This is my main gripe with the PT. Especially with AOTC and ROTS: both screw up the main plot points that are the evry reason these movies exist. AOTC is about Anakin and PAdme falling in love and that is done in such a bad bad lousy crappy way... that that too sucks balls the size of Jupiter... And ROTS is about Anakin's fall... see Charlie's post above.

For those who think I'm a grumpy old geezer: I'd totally discard any movie for failing at its crucial plot points. But I am a fan, that doesn't mean I have to praise everything about it. Lucas as a writer and a director failed miserably at these plot points... and instead we get a lot of exposition about boring things.

I think it was clearly explained from previous episodes how ANAKIN turned to dark side.

It was the fear of losing someone he really love!

I love Master YODA ! "Fear leads to dark side " ---- I totally agree

I doubt Anakin ever really loved Padme, trying to choke her that quickly. I think Anakin only ever loved his mother and himself. At least, that's what his actions in the PT tell us.

Originally posted by queeq
I doubt Anakin ever really loved Padme, trying to choke her that quickly. I think Anakin only ever loved his mother and himself. At least, that's what his actions in the PT tell us.
Are you serious??? The whole reason why he turned was because he loved Padme. He chocked her just because he got angry. He did it in his anger, but when he found out (incorrectly of course) that he killed her in his anger, he was really upset. That's why he shouted, "NOOOO". In AOTC, he even wanted to get off the ship @ a really incomveniant (sorry about spelling) time just to help her. You realy don't think he loved her?

He got angry just like Luke did with Vader in ROTJ.

But Luke was about to be struck down by Vader, Padme was unarmed and pregnant when he choked her?

Anakin doesn't show love for Padme, in the movie all he shows how he likes to have her by his side. He is not in the least bit interested in her needs. He does care a lot about his own needs: he breaks Jedi code to live with her (for his own satisfaction), he wants to be the bvest Jedi, he wants more, he wants Sith powers etc etc.

I know Anakin is supposed to love Padme, the script says he does, but frankly: I don't SEE it... It's a crucial element in the PT that just doesn't work.

Originally posted by queeq
Anakin doesn't show love for Padme, in the movie all he shows how he likes to have her by his side. He is not in the least bit interested in her needs. He does care a lot about his own needs: he breaks Jedi code to live with her (for his own satisfaction), he wants to be the bvest Jedi, he wants more, he wants Sith powers etc etc.

I know Anakin is supposed to love Padme, the script says he does, but frankly: I don't SEE it... It's a crucial element in the PT that just doesn't work.

Well, that's why he becomes the villain. Yes, he is selfish, and he is frustrated by it. Braty and whiney as he was in Episode II (and being frustrated with his own feelings), he is much more humble and admirable at the start of Episode III. This is a sure sign that he wants to be good, and in some cases, can be good. But his wants and desires for Padme and prestige overwhelm him. He can't help himself. He tries to be honorable and humble, but in the end he wants what he wants, and he is consumed by it.

Well, here's my problem. he doesn't BECOME the villain... he is already like that from the start of AOTC. And we don't really understand why he is like that. Except taht he is whiny, arrogant, self centered etc.... But we don't get why he has become this way. There is no development, except that he gets more powerful. But characterwise he remains unaltered.

Originally posted by queeq
Well, here's my problem. he doesn't BECOME the villain... he is already like that from the start of AOTC. And we don't really understand why he is like that. Except taht he is whiny, arrogant, self centered etc.... But we don't get why he has become this way. There is no development, except that he gets more powerful. But characterwise he remains unaltered.

I really can't believe that. Being selfish and braty doesn't make him villainous. It makes him selfish and braty. And I'd have to disagree that there wasn't any development. His mother dies, he gets pissed, and slaughters a camp of sandpeople, who are killers and marauders. He makes his first trek over to the darkside here, and it seems pretty eerie when he admits to killing the women and children. Some would say that Padme should have shun him for this (and she does seem deeply disturbed by his behavior) but why should she have any sympathy for ruthless beings such as tuskan raiders? Especially those who abused Anakin's mother to death? The only wrong Anakin did here is he lets himself be consumed by his anger and goes too far, acting on his emotions. Does this make him Vader all of a sudden? You may say yes, but I don't think it does. This is merely the first trek down that path. The seed starts to sprout, but still has a little ways to go before it becomes a fully grown plant. And yet, after all this, Anakin berates himself by saying, "I am a Jedi. I know I'm better than this." He even prevents Dooku from striking Obi-wan down later on. If he was truly Vader, why prevent Dooku from killing Obi-wan?

He doesn't only do evil, but to me there is little difference between his slaughter of the Tuskens and the Younglings... well, his emotional state was a little different. After killing the Tuskens he justifies himself and no one corrects him, not even Padme. And the 'berating himself' I consider as more whining... "why is OB1 holding me back, I want more, I should be better than this, they don't trust me, if you are not with me you're against me, I should be the greatest Jedi ever, blahdeeblahdeeblah.." He sounds like an adolescent that never grows up (unlike his son Luke for that matter!).

So to me the whiny Anakin that justifies his bad deeds in AOTC is not so much different from the Anakin slaughtering younglings and that is basically Darth Vader.

The sad thing about this all is that Lucas wanted to tell the story how a 'good man that was your father' made certain choices to become the evil "more machine than man" Darth Vader. Now, that's a very good theme, that allows for spectacular as well as extremely dramatic movie series. When Lucas started, he always said it had to do with choices people made. Now... I don't see Anakin make a lot of choices. I see the grumpy angry kid not change, the only choices he really makes is marry Padme against the rules (in a rather terribly flawed love story) and to follow Sidious (in a terribly flawed turn to the dark side scene). So he does bad stuff and the choices don't influence his character or behaviour... he does that because he wants to. Not because he is forced, not because he tries not to, not because people force him or whatever... he just does it. I don't see the choices that make him bad... I just see he's bad from the beginning and that is why he makes these choices. Quite the reverse from what Lucas intended.

Originally posted by queeq
He doesn't only do evil, but to me there is little difference between his slaughter of the Tuskens and the Younglings... well, his emotional state was a little different. After killing the Tuskens he justifies himself and no one corrects him, not even Padme. And the 'berating himself' I consider as more whining... "why is OB1 holding me back, I want more, I should be better than this, they don't trust me, if you are not with me you're against me, I should be the greatest Jedi ever, blahdeeblahdeeblah.." He sounds like an adolescent that never grows up (unlike his son Luke for that matter!).

So to me the whiny Anakin that justifies his bad deeds in AOTC is not so much different from the Anakin slaughtering younglings and that is basically Darth Vader.

The sad thing about this all is that Lucas wanted to tell the story how a 'good man that was your father' made certain choices to become the evil "more machine than man" Darth Vader. Now, that's a very good theme, that allows for spectacular as well as extremely dramatic movie series. When Lucas started, he always said it had to do with choices people made. Now... I don't see Anakin make a lot of choices. I see the grumpy angry kid not change, the only choices he really makes is marry Padme against the rules (in a rather terribly flawed love story) and to follow Sidious (in a terribly flawed turn to the dark side scene). So he does bad stuff and the choices don't influence his character or behaviour... he does that because he wants to. Not because he is forced, not because he tries not to, not because people force him or whatever... he just does it. I don't see the choices that make him bad... I just see he's bad from the beginning and that is why he makes these choices. Quite the reverse from what Lucas intended.

There is a huge difference between the killing of the Tuskens and of the younglings. The Tuskens were armed, trained and very efficient killing machines in their own right. The younglings, while dangerous in their own rights, were, well...younglings who posed no threat. The Tuskens killed his mother and countless others. This was one of those decisions that led him to go to the dark side later on - showing his tendencies. And who would have questioned Anakin for doign it? Lars? Not a chance, I'm sure he wanted them deas just as much. Padme isn't a Jedi so I could see her understanding (it was his mother, after all, the only person who really cared for him for the longest time). I haven't seen the movie in a while, but I don't remember them going to the council and bragging about his slaughter. I do agree that he was whining in those scenes.

I think it was extremely clear that Anakin was, indeed, the "good man that was Luke's father." He was a hero of the Republic, respected by the troops he was with, if I recall and OB1's padawan and then a Jedi Knight for the duration of the war who performed miraculous feats for the Republic (see Grievous' flagship) and clearly demonstrated his heroic and courageous tendencies (see RotS where he wanted to go and save those pilots instead of continue with the mission and was bothered when OB1 made him do otherwise). They don't come out and slap you in the face and say "hey, Anakin is a good guy and here is a comprehensive list of why he is so." They don't need to. If he wasn't a good guy, he would have war crimes, he would be reprimanded by the Council, etc. There is no way that he was "bad from the beginning." I see you as a movie "expert", queeq, so it bothers me that you don't seem capable of reading between the lines and picking out details from the movie unless they slap you in the face with it. Luke does just as many rash moves in the OT that Anakin did in the PT (see ESB when he left Yoda; see RotJ where he goes to the planet to help Han and co. when he knows he shouldn't; see RotJ when he used his anger to defeat Vader - so it's OK for him to dip into the dark side for his benefits?; etc.).

Luke is LEARNING in ESB, and only a few months. Anakin is a fully trained JEDI KNIGHT in ROTS that passed the trials. There is a huge difference.

He is hero, but WE as viewers see what what he really does, including the secret stuff people who consider him a hero do not see. Let's list his achievements in AOTC and ROTS (not counting TPM because he was just a little kid who did most things by accident):

1. Complains about his master
2. Disobeys his master (in public) several times And right from the start)
3. Clumsily seduces Padme - against Jedi Code
4. Complains to Padme about the kiss she should not have given him, while it was he who kissed Padme (has no self reflection)
5. Disobeys Jedi Council order to stay on Naboo
6. Slaughters unexpecting Tuskens who are no match for him, not just the men but the women and the children
7. Disbobeys Jedi Council orders and goes on a rescue mission to Geonosis and gets captured (sure Padme lured him into that but he wasn't really resisting)
8. Disobeys OB1 in Dooku fight and loses arm
9. Gets married against Jedi Code
10. Kills unarmed Dooku - against Jedi Code
11. Complains more about OB1 and Council
12. Takes side against Jedi Council in favour of non-Jedi Palpatine
13. Disobeys Mace by staying behind
14. Cuts of Mace's hands allowing him to get killed
13. Becomes Darth Vader and acts more like that

So tell me? Where is the great hero? Where is the "the good man" Anakin?

The problem is, G, you seek justification of Anakin "by reading between the lines" and by picking out a few details. I look at this film and consider what I see ON SCREEN.... which is where the movie story takes place: in actions (be it arguments, fights, acts, dialogue)... and the actions say only one thing: Anakin is bad news... there's nothing good about this guy. The only good thing is that he doesn't entirely turn to the Dark Side until he actually does.

Originally posted by queeq
Luke is LEARNING in ESB, and only a few months. Anakin is a fully trained JEDI KNIGHT in ROTS that passed the trials. There is a huge difference.

He is hero, but WE as viewers see what what he really does, including the secret stuff people who consider him a hero do not see. Let's list his achievements in AOTC and ROTS (not counting TPM because he was just a little kid who did most things by accident):

1. Complains about his master - Who doesn't complain about their job once in a while or their boss? We just happened to see him do it. This is also part of the Jedi's fears of training him at such a late age - Anakin was not used to the Jedi life and he had a wife to talk to about such things.


2. Disobeys his master (in public) several times And right from the start) Yes, but look at the reasons he did this for. Some of which are outlined below. It's not like he was disobeying an order to save someone and instead chose to do something else.


3. Clumsily seduces Padme - against Jedi Code Anakin as a failed romantic should not be counted against him


4. Complains to Padme about the kiss she should not have given him, while it was he who kissed Padme (has no self reflection) No self reflection? Did you not see the Mustafar scene in RotS with him crying as he knew what he had done? The scene after the Tusken slaughter? He knew what he did and he blamed himself for it.


5. Disobeys Jedi Council order to stay on Naboo. Again...how does this make him a bad person? He's on the same level as Darth Vader because he wants to spend time with someone he trule cares for?


6. Slaughters unexpecting Tuskens who are no match for him, not just the men but the women and the children Yes. And I've admitted that this was a sign of what was to come in that his anger can get the best of him and he should have been able to control himself or handled the situation in a better manner. Regardless, look at why he did it - he did so to save his mother, whom was a slave to them and treated witht he utmost of harshnes. I don't think that reason makes him a bad character. I wouldn't call someone a bad person because they wanted to save their mother.


7. Disbobeys Jedi Council orders and goes on a rescue mission to Geonosis and gets captured (sure Padme lured him into that but he wasn't really resisting). To save his MASTER. Again, he's a bad person because he's willing to put himself in personal risk to save those he cares about? If he hadn't have gone...things may not have looked to bright for OB1.


8. Disobeys OB1 in Dooku fight and loses arm. Yes, he acted very rashly and used his anger. Yet another step towards the dark side


9. Gets married against Jedi Code. Getting married makes one a bad person? We can't think of Anakin as the same as every other Jedi. He's not. And the Jedi Council don't even treat him as such. He gets many special privileges. He is different from the rest of the Jedi and has some different values.


10. Kills unarmed Dooku - against Jedi Code. Yes, and this was bad. He was an unarmed prisoner. Does that make Mace Windu a bad person? In RotS he was going to strike down Sidious - an unarmed prisoner. Dooku had very similar abilities to Sidious. While Sidious may have been MORE dangerous than Dooku as a prisoner. Dooku was most certainly a dangerous prisoner.


11. Complains more about OB1 and Council. Are you a bad person, queeq, because you complain about the PT so much?


12. Takes side against Jedi Council in favour of non-Jedi Palpatine. This is Anakin analysing his options. The Jedi offered him nothing for Padme. Palps did. And, in his head, he had just killed Mace Windu - a very prominent Jedi Master. He wasn't trying to kill him, he just wanted to stop him from striking Palps down, but Palps killed him. Anakin felt he had gone too far.


13. Disobeys Mace by staying behind. You mean by not staying behind? It's a good thing he did go. Mace is allowed to kill an unarmed prisoner but Anakin isn't? Both Dooku and Palps were extremely dangerous, even as prisoners. All Mace had to do to keep Anakin from going to the dark side was take Palps into custody. MACE choose to strike him down. Anakin needed reassurance that the Jedi were still the good guys. Striking down unarmed prisoners was against the Jedi Code, showing that Mace, a very prominent figure, was himself corrupt.


14. Cuts of Mace's hands allowing him to get killed His intention was not to kill Mace. If Mace had been on the flagship with Anakin and Dooku, I'm thinking Mace would have done the same thing to Anakin to stop him killing Dookue, an unarmed prisoner. Why are there double standards between Mace and Anakin?


13. Becomes Darth Vader and acts more like that. Yes, becoming Darth Vader did indeed make him a bad guy.

So tell me? Where is the great hero? Where is the "the good man" Anakin?

The problem is, G, you seek justification of Anakin "by reading between the lines" and by picking out a few details. I look at this film and consider what I see ON SCREEN.... which is where the movie story takes place: in actions (be it arguments, fights, acts, dialogue)... and the actions say only one thing: Anakin is bad news... there's nothing good about this guy. The only good thing is that he doesn't entirely turn to the Dark Side until he actually does.

No, I watch the movie and I see everything that is on screen and what is said and, from that, I can pull the hero and good person that OB1 refers to in ESB who is Anakin Skywalker. You can clearly see that the Tusken slaughter eats away at his conscience, as well as the slaughter of the younglings (see him on Mustafar after ending the war). Personally, I don't believe Sidious would give either act a second thought. Anakin blames himself for his mother's death as he was not able to save her. He swore he would not do the same for Padme. He would not lose her the way he lost his mother. He saw corruption in the Jedi and found, to him at least, the most likely way to save her - Sidious. The Jedi offered nothing for him for Padme. They said to accept it and move on; don't be attached to anything. Sidious at least gave him hope of saving her.

To say that there is nothing good about this guy is jus tbeing completely ignorant to the movies. So a bad guy would want to save those under him rather than continue the mission (again, see RotS Coruscant space battle); would a bad guy go to such lengths, ignoring the pleas of the Chancellor, to save his master? Would a bad guy go and turn the Chancellor in to the Jedi? Would a bad guy go and try and save his mother, ignoring the wishes of the Jedi Council? There are honestly so many examples of Anakin being a hero and a good guy that I can't believe you to be making the statement you did.

I do believe there is a sense of WANTING to be good in Anakin... But his only measure is himself. I don't SEE him do a lot of good, I don't SEE his conscience being eaten away either. I see and hear him blaming everyone but himself...

Saving his mother is his attachment from the past, we know that was his weak spot. But it is his attachment, going after her shows lack of judgement in the end because trying to save her does bring him closer to his utter fall. That attempt of saving his mother just pushed him closer to his fall...

I will not go very deep into that whole turn in of the Chancellor againbecause those scenes are so sill, inconsistent that show more bad deeds that good ones (he doesn't want to kill him because he is unarmed and agains Jedi Code (he had no trouble with Tusken children and Dooku), he turns him but disobeys Mace, he follows and cuts Mace's arms off, says "what have I done" but submits himself to Sidious anyway so his wife can live (but she dies BECAUSE he turns), but when Sidious he doesn't know how to save people from death he goes along and kills more kids... WTF????).

So at best Anakin is someone who doesn't want to be bad... but since we mostly SEE him do bad things and we SEE show bad judgment and we SEE him disregard his masters' advice, we can only conclude that Anakin was always going down the dark path... and once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Anakin just didn't have it in him to change that path, nor did he want to see it. So he's a wanna-be good guy... but really he isn't. Not in the movies at least, the novelizations are kinder for his character.

Originally posted by queeq
I do believe there is a sense of WANTING to be good in Anakin... But his only measure is himself. I don't SEE him do a lot of good, I don't SEE his conscience being eaten away either. I see and hear him blaming everyone but himself...

Saving his mother is his attachment from the past, we know that was his weak spot. But it is his attachment, going after her shows lack of judgement in the end because trying to save her does bring him closer to his utter fall. That attempt of saving his mother just pushed him closer to his fall...

Yes, his attachment and devotion to others is his weak spot, but how can you say that that makes him a bad character/person? That makes him a good person in just about every society. I don't think it is merely the fact that he goes after her that brings him closer to his downfall. I would say it is more the way in which he does so. He could have done it in another way which would have resulted in less bloodshed and more rational thinking by Anakin. If Anakin never went after his mother, then the audience would call him a heartless pr!ck and would have zero sympathy for him. More people can sympathise with someone who lost the only family member they had given Anakin's situation.

Originally posted by queeq
I will not go very deep into that whole turn in of the Chancellor againbecause those scenes are so sill, inconsistent that show more bad deeds that good ones (he doesn't want to kill him because he is unarmed and agains Jedi Code (he had no trouble with Tusken children and Dooku), he turns him but disobeys Mace, he follows and cuts Mace's arms off, says "what have I done" but submits himself to Sidious anyway so his wife can live (but she dies BECAUSE he turns), but when Sidious he doesn't know how to save people from death he goes along and kills more kids... WTF????).

This entire scene could have been done infitely better for sure. I will, though, go into more detail in this scene because you refuse to acknowledge any good deeds done by Anakin. He did have an issue with the Tusken children and women. You see that when he gets back when he talks with Padme. And he did have an issue with killing Dooku which he states when he is standing there with him at his mercy. "It's not the Jedi way." He gave into peer pressure by Palps. If only OB1 were still conscious, he would have talked Anakin out of it.

I've stated in my previous post why he disobeyed Mace and how it was good that he did disobey Mace. He cuts his arm off, not to kill him, but to stop him from striking down Sidious. ALL MAce had to do was take Sidious into custody with him. It was Mace who decided to strike him down. Why are there double standards between Mace and Anakin? By your logic, Mace is worse than Darth Vader. At least Anakin had regrets and personal turmoil over killing unarmed prisoners. Mace was just going to strike him down, showing Anakin that the Jedi were indeed corrupt.

The whole reason Padme died was because he turned to the dark side, yes, but he didn't know that. Anakin should have become much more cautious when Sidious said he didn't know how to save people from death, but he said they could figure it out together. This was still more of a guarantee than what the Jedi were giving Anakin. They promised him nothing to save her.

Originally posted by queeq
So at best Anakin is someone who doesn't want to be bad... but since we mostly SEE him do bad things and we SEE show bad judgment and we SEE him disregard his masters' advice, we can only conclude that Anakin was always going down the dark path... and once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Anakin just didn't have it in him to change that path, nor did he want to see it. So he's a wanna-be good guy... but really he isn't. Not in the movies at least, the novelizations are kinder for his character.

We SEE Anakin do good things as well as bad. We SEE Anakin disregard his masters' advice in order to do good things. We both can agree that he was always going down the dark path. This was both a fault of his and the Councils' though. He's a wanna-be good guy. That statement I can get behind. The novelisations are important.

Originally posted by General G
you refuse to acknowledge any good deeds done by Anakin.

I do not. I question Anakin's motives. Anakin is focused only on himself, his own mother, his own girl... it's me me me. He did good things but that doesn't mean the PT portrays him unfortunately as an intrinsically bad person in the sense that he acts mainly in self interest and shows a very very poor sense of judgment.

Originally posted by General G
THe gave into peer pressure by Palps. If only OB1 were still conscious, he would have talked Anakin out of it.

That shows he has not matured, he's just an adolescent that cannot make sensible decisions without daddy... This proves how Anakin's mind works in these movies: he thinks only about himself. If no one corrects him, he fails miserably.

Originally posted by General G
The whole reason Padme died was because he turned to the dark side, yes, but he didn't know that.

He knew very well the lessons of Yoda, that attachment ultimately leads to suffering... But he chose to serve himself and brought this on himself.

Originally posted by General G
We SEE Anakin do good things as well as bad. We SEE Anakin disregard his masters' advice in order to do good things. We both can agree that he was always going down the dark path. This was both a fault of his and the Councils' though. He's a wanna-be good guy. That statement I can get behind. The novelisations are important.

We see him do a FEW good things... we see him do A LOT of bad things in a time when he is to be considered "a good man'. That is contradictory. His motives in AOTC and ROTS are howvere alwasy the same: it's only me me me... Good men do not only think of themselves... Anakin in these movies does.

Originally posted by queeq
I do not. I question Anakin's motives. Anakin is focused only on himself, his own mother, his own girl... it's me me me. He did good things but that doesn't mean the PT portrays him unfortunately as an intrinsically bad person in the sense that he acts mainly in self interest and shows a very very poor sense of judgment.

How can you say that he is focused only on himself while acknowledging the good things Anakin does in the movies? He went to save his mother from the Tuskens, not himself. he wasn't going to bring his mother back from Tatooine to Coruscant with him. He wanted to save her so she could finally live the happy life she deserved. He wanted to save his wife from death during childbirth. There is some selfish motive here, of course, being it's his wife, so of course he selfishly wants her to survive, that's why he married her - he cares deeply for her. He wanted to go off and save those Clone Troopers in the Coruscant space battle; he wanted to stop the ship on Geonosis to help Padme; he went to go and save his master on Geonosis instead of obeying the wishes of the Council at great personal risk. He is certainly no saint and he definitely has selfish tendencies, but he's not a bad person.

His decisions may be rash and not totally thought out, but the reasons for many of his decisions are inherently good.

Originally posted by queeq
That shows he has not matured, he's just an adolescent that cannot make sensible decisions without daddy... This proves how Anakin's mind works in these movies: he thinks only about himself. If no one corrects him, he fails miserably.

That doesn't show he hasn't matured. This war had been going on for three years. Millions have died as a result of Count Dooku. Comparing Anakin to a child in this case is just ignorant. Heroes on both sides of the conflict die every day and Dooku (while not shown in the movies, it can be assumed that) has escaped a few instances where the Republic may have closed in on him. Should OB1 have shot the staff from Grievous' hands and forced him to submit and then taken him back to Coruscant? What would Anakin have done with Dooku if he kept him alive? The ship turned upside down, if you recall, and Anakin was busy carrying Dooku. Nobody expected Dooku to survive the encounter against OB1 and Anakin. A necessary death.

Originally posted by queeq
He knew very well the lessons of Yoda, that attachment ultimately leads to suffering... But he chose to serve himself and brought this on himself.

Yes, and this is what Yoda was so worried about. Anakin was old enough that he had already gained attachments in the form of both his mother and a pretty queen. Tell me, queeq, if someone came up to you at that age and told you to forget your mother. Forget everybody that once mattered to you. How easy is that? It's not. He cared for these people. He can't just give them up cold turkey.

Originally posted by queeq
We see him do a FEW good things... we see him do A LOT of bad things in a time when he is to be considered "a good man'. That is contradictory. His motives in AOTC and ROTS are howvere alwasy the same: it's only me me me... Good men do not only think of themselves... Anakin in these movies does.

We see him do more than enough good deeds in order to back up OB1's statement that he was a good man.

Look, G, I see you reciting from the script... I just don't see it on screen. I know how theoretically all these things are supposed to be... but as I said: I don't see it up on the screen.

THe motives are weak, incomprehensible or downright not there. The attachement and age thing is a bit silly... for many centuries young women and children went to monasteries but in the christian as well as in the Asian world. Since the Jedi are based on Shaolin Monks, the comparison is not so weird. And yet, a great deal of them managed to devote their lives to their religion, living separate from their families. Anakin's obviously couldn't.

But here's the weird thing: if his mother meant so much to him, was there in those ten years never any time to go back??? That's what I mean: the motives are convoluted... And it's all over the place.

The large majority of Anakin's actions are disobedience or malcontent... the fact that he sometimes does a good deed, don't take away the fact that he is utterly selfish...All those horrible love scenes in AOTC on Naboo proves that: Anakin doesn't care about Padme's well being, he cares about having her. See the lies, the downright manipulation etc etc. And of course, her dying doesn't fit the picture of having her... of course he wants to prevent her from dying. And he is willing to kill his masters, the younglings and the entire universe to keep her. But when she turns against him in words only, he chokes his pregnant wife... yeah, really a guy who wants to do good... NOT. He didn't as Vader and he didn't as Vader and he didn't as Anakin.

Originally posted by General G
Nobody expected Dooku to survive the encounter against OB1 and Anakin. A necessary death.



Lol you sound like Chancellor Palpatine's spin doctor!

God forbid you give the PT any credit, eh, queeq?

Originally posted by General G
There is a huge difference between the killing of the Tuskens and of the younglings. The Tuskens were armed, trained and very efficient killing machines in their own right. The younglings, while dangerous in their own rights, were, well...younglings who posed no threat. The Tuskens killed his mother and countless others. This was one of those decisions that led him to go to the dark side later on - showing his tendencies. And who would have questioned Anakin for doign it? Lars? Not a chance, I'm sure he wanted them deas just as much. Padme isn't a Jedi so I could see her understanding (it was his mother, after all, the only person who really cared for him for the longest time). I haven't seen the movie in a while, but I don't remember them going to the council and bragging about his slaughter. I do agree that he was whining in those scenes.


Ok. You just tried to justify the killing of an entire village of sentient beings. Men, women and children. Doesn't that bother you at all? In your quest to defend all things PT you should really look at yourself and see if you aren't going too far.

And BTW, you don't have to be a Jedi to see that slaughtering a group of people is a very bad thing.

I know I'm always late to the party, but I will try to make this quick.

I don't think Anakin's turn to the dark side was as rushed as it seemed. Let's remember this is a movie; how long do you expect it to be? The books are always more detailed. N E whoo, the key thing to think about when it comes to Anakin is his age. He WAS to old when they started training him. We all know from our own lives that at a certain age some things are just with you. He already knew how to love with ALL his heart by the time he started his training. There is a thin line between love and hate after all. His physical abilities as a Padawan and then Jedi Knight had him advancing quickly, but his immaturety held him back. Darth Sidious had a way with words and the power of the dark side also to aide in his persuasion. Pay attention to how his voice changes when he says certain things to Anakin; like when he told Anakin to kill Dooku. Anakin's love for Padmae mixed with his immature mind couldn't do anything but fall prey to Palpatine. I do understand that it would seem like Anakin should have been smarter, but Jedi Masters have years and years of experience training their minds without interference. Anakin wasn't a Jedi Master and had The Dark Lord of the Sith wispering in his ear from the begining; building his trust. ALL IMO.

Would love to hear what you think about this.

Originally posted by Charlie512
Ok. You just tried to justify the killing of an entire village of sentient beings. Men, women and children. Doesn't that bother you at all? In your quest to defend all things PT you should really look at yourself and see if you aren't going too far.

And BTW, you don't have to be a Jedi to see that slaughtering a group of people is a very bad thing.

No, I didn't try and justify killing a village of living beings. Nowhere did I say it was OK for Anakin to do so and I actually said the opposite - it was a key moment for his turn to the dark side. I said multiple times it was a bad move and a bad thing to do. I would never say killing a village is an inherently "good" move.

The only thing I can see someone being slightly confused towards is that it was for a somewhat "good" reason. I didn't ever say the act was good. He was angry. Those people just killed his mother through brutal slavery and could have killed him during the podrace and they do this very often. This doesn't justify it for anyone but himself. It was still a "bad" act, one that brought him closer to the dark side.

Originally posted by JuicyJ
I know I'm always late to the party, but I will try to make this quick.

I don't think Anakin's turn to the dark side was as rushed as it seemed. Let's remember this is a movie; how long do you expect it to be? The books are always more detailed.

Well, there are still issues. More than three plot points could have been revealed in AotC and Anakin could have shown more of his transformation starting then. Lucas didn't need to bring in a new villain for each film and could have spent more time on the protagonist (could have kept Maul for all three films or introduced Dooku in the first and kept him throughout, for example). That's just wasted screentime, even though one of my favourite characters is a result of this.


Originally posted by JuicyJ
but his immaturety held him back. Darth Sidious had a way with words and the power of the dark side also to aide in his persuasion. Pay attention to how his voice changes when he says certain things to Anakin; like when he told Anakin to kill Dooku. Anakin's love for Padmae mixed with his immature mind couldn't do anything but fall prey to Palpatine. I do understand that it would seem like Anakin should have been smarter, but Jedi Masters have years and years of experience training their minds without interference. Anakin wasn't a Jedi Master and had The Dark Lord of the Sith wispering in his ear from the begining; building his trust

His immaturity did hold him back and Palps acted as a trusted figure towards Anakin. He built his trust with him over many years and knew Anakin's weaknesses. It was also the Council's complete lack of willingness to do anything for Anakin to help with Padme didn't help either. As I've said, Palps at least offered a solution to Anakin. The Council told him to let go - easier said than done for someone of Anakin's background.

Anakin's fall was, indeed, rushed, though and fairly anti-climactic.

Well, if you consider my idea that Anakin always was pretty much a bad guy, it's not rushed. But then, there isn't much transformation either, just an intensification.

Fact is that the whole build up from Anakin finding out Palpy is the Sith Lord to his turn is utterly ridiculous.

Originally posted by queeq
Fact is that the whole build up from Anakin finding out Palpy is the Sith Lord to his turn is utterly ridiculous.

So is sound in space and the lacking need to adjust to different levels of gravity when going form planet to planet. But... it is just a movie after all

Well I saw ROTS was a modern day Macbeth. Anakin WAS the Republic's greatest hero at the beginning of the movie, but then throughout the movie made choices, starting with the murder of Count Dooku which turned him into an evil selfish being.

I know he killed in AOTC but I dnt think that means ROTS Anakin was already bad/evil at the beginning of the movie. It was 3 years later and he was a full fledged Kinght now.

But I do feel that AOTC incident was a bit early on(before he becomes the Republic's greatest hero) and his "revenge" a bit over the top. If he just killed all the male Tusken Raiders that would have been bad enough. Killing women and children in a fit of rage was a bit too much. I think AOTC was flawed in many ways though. It's my least favorite Star Wars prequel.

Mine too. Still, that doesn't do away with the fact that both in AOCT and ROTS Anakin is pretty much the same character that whines, disobeys and does plenty of other bad stuff (see list above).

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
So is sound in space and the lacking need to adjust to different levels of gravity when going form planet to planet. But... it is just a movie after all

Tue but soundless space is boring and not dramatic. Messing around with motivations and characterizations kill drama as well. There is a difference.