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The three great apprentices vs. the master of the Dark Side. Who wins? This is Darth Sidious full power from Revenge of the Sith when he was fighting Yoda.

1. Saber
2.Force
3.All Out

My bet is on the Light Siders. It would be a tough battle, but the Force would be on their side.

Sidious dispatches Luke with casual ease then proceeds to get taken out by Anakin and Galen.

Originally posted by mattatom
Sidious dispatches Luke with casual ease then proceeds to get taken out by Anakin and Galen.

I might have to agree with you on that one.

Agreed with mattom.

Except the force wasn't on the Jedi's side the entire time Palpatine was in office any taking over the republic.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Except the force wasn't on the Jedi's side the entire time Palpatine was in office any taking over the republic.

Well, the three Jedi are incredibly gifted in the Force.

So was Yoda, Mace and the rest of the Council.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Well, the three Jedi are incredibly gifted in the Force. Apart from Luke since he has alack of training at this point.

Originally posted by mattatom
Sidious dispatches Luke with casual ease then proceeds to get taken out by Anakin and Galen. Taken out via pwnage.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Taken out via pwnage. Hence the casual ease bit.

Perhaps he meant Sidious being taken out via pwnage

No don't be stupid Lucien would never mean that.

I don't know how weak Luke actually was during ROTJ. Think about this. At the beginning of ESB, he was barely able to pull his lightsaber from the snow. He goes, spends some time with Yoda, and his power increases by massive amounts. He is able to partially lift his X-wing, which would have been thousands of times more difficult than pulling out his lightsaber. Plus, he trains more with Yoda before leaving for Cloud City. Yeah, he had FAR less time to train, but at the Jedi Temple most of the training went towards diplomacy skills and common knowledge (like math and how to write). Yoda and Obi-wan were creating a weapon to destroy Vader and the Emperor. In any case, I think Luke was not nearly as weak as everyone seems to think by ROTJ.

I think the Lightsiders win.

No sir. They didn't only learn math and writing. When OB1 went to talk to Yoda when he was training the younglings, he wasn't teaching them their times tables. They were blocking remotes with their lightsabers. I don't recall seeing desks and blackboards. Yes, of course the younger ones had to learn these things as well, but that was the point in time when the Jedi thrived and were the most combat effective and most powerful with the force.

Prove "were the most combat effective and most powerful with the force."

Edit: BTW, that ignores the fact that Luke's power was actually pretty significant after his training with Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove "were the most combat effective and most powerful with the force."

Edit: BTW, that ignores the fact that Luke's power was actually pretty significant after his training with Yoda.

I am really unsure who wins. I do know that one powerful gout of lightning from Sidious, and Luke's dead. I don't even see how Anakin survives.

Also: If we use the dark side ending of The Force Unleashed as a "what if", then Galen is really no match for Sidious. I am not sure how that works though.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove "were the most combat effective and most powerful with the force."

Edit: BTW, that ignores the fact that Luke's power was actually pretty significant after his training with Yoda. The fact that we GL says that the Jedi we see in the PT is the "Jedi in their prime," says enough. That would be their prime in all facets.

I know you don't like when the creator says something that goes against what you want, but you have to remember Lucas>>>>>>>>>Glentract

This is a tough one, Galen in the game at least, looked like he was on a level of a more powerful version of Sidious, so by that you could say that with the help of 2 more combatants the team would win, although i didn't read the book, how did the fight in the book went, was Galen like equal to Sidious in the book as well?

Galen got his ass handed to him. Sidious> Starkiller

Can you provide a text from the book about the fight?

Not got the novel and its not online yet.

Then, how do you know, he got hiss ass handed to him?

not completely handed to him, but the insinuation was he was nowhere near sidious's level.

I've seen the cutscene and i've read Gideon's essay.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
The fact that we GL says that the Jedi we see in the PT is the "Jedi in their prime," says enough. That would be their prime in all facets.

I know you don't like when the creator says something that goes against what you want, but you have to remember Lucas>>>>>>>>>Glentract


You can't blanket that one statement to cover "all facets." Thats total bullshit. And it doesn't change the fact Luke actually showed pretty impressive Force power when partially lifting his X-wing.

Its not bullshit at all. Their prime - at fighting, at utilizing the force, diplomacy... everything. if you don't think so, then you have to prove that he only meant A, B, or C.
Luke, in partially lifting his ship, actually completely failed in lifting his ship. He didn't accomplish it. He always wanted to quit, and even failed at the rock training. He's nowhere close to even being a league below the other 3.

I can't help but not take Subjekt seriously when he comes out with this kind of sh1t. Sorry, but no, such a statement could be in reference to any specific attribute, as it could be to all specific attributes, or an overall assessment of attributes. Glentract pointing out that you're not in a position to say that George Lucas was definitively stating it in the style of the second does not mean that he has to prove that he was stating it in the style of the first.

Neb go away.

Originally posted by mattatom
Neb go away.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Its not bullshit at all. Their prime - at fighting, at utilizing the force, diplomacy... everything. if you don't think so, then you have to prove that he only meant A, B, or C.
Luke, in partially lifting his ship, actually completely failed in lifting his ship. He didn't accomplish it. He always wanted to quit, and even failed at the rock training. He's nowhere close to even being a league below the other 3.

Incorrect. Lucas' statement doesn't automatically blanket to all aspects. Were they the prime Jedi in bed? The prime of the Jedi when it comes to failing? Prime can not be assumed to cover all things because then it would have to cover the negatives too.

Luke partially lifting his ship still required an incredible amount of Force power, more than I remember Obi-wan or Anakin having demonstrated.

Wasn't Lucas talking about Lightsaber combat, when he was talking about Prime of the Jedi. or the Golden age of the Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Incorrect. Lucas' statement doesn't automatically blanket to all aspects. Were they the prime Jedi in bed? The prime of the Jedi when it comes to failing? Prime can not be assumed to cover all things because then it would have to cover the negatives too. Lucas was refering to combat prowess. I don't think Lucas thought he had to spell it out for people to get it. You are not slow; you know what he meant. Do you think he meant the prime at gambling?

Obi-Wan ripped a huge machine from the ceiling to crush magna guards. He and Anakin easily lifted huge boulders that were alot bigger than the rocks Luke struggled with.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lucas was refering to combat prowess. I don't think Lucas thought he had to spell it out for people to get it. You are not slow; you know what he meant. Do you think he meant the prime at gambling?

According to Darth Subjekt, that is what Lucas was saying.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obi-Wan ripped a huge machine from the ceiling to crush magna guards. He and Anakin easily lifted huge boulders that were alot bigger than the rocks Luke struggled with.

When was this? Please don't tell me during the Clone Wars cartoons.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Incorrect. Lucas' statement doesn't automatically blanket to all aspects. Were they the prime Jedi in bed? The prime of the Jedi when it comes to failing? Prime can not be assumed to cover all things because then it would have to cover the negatives too.

Luke partially lifting his ship still required an incredible amount of Force power, more than I remember Obi-wan or Anakin having demonstrated. You truly are an idiot. A negative wouldn't be a prime. And combat prowess would include what I said, fighting and force mastery. Why is that so far fetched? Your poor attempts at sarcasm are in fact humorous, but not the way you would like them to be. They're laughable due to the sheer ignorance they are laced with. In bed? Right, cause that's something that the Jedi partake in. Gambling... same thing. All that were the "Jedi" is to what he was referring. Force mastery and fighting ability make up combat prowess as most, if not all, Jedi utilize the force to aide them while in combat.

And you're right, Luke failing to lift his ship far supersedes Anakin skydiving hundred of stories through traffic to land on the ONE speeder he was aiming for. Collapsing a building just by yelling. Throwing a Jedi Temple statue through a wall. The aforementioned showings listed by Sids 66. The incredible lava surfing and super jumps to land on a piece of metal just big enough for your feet.Yea. they've done nothing. Luke pwns them all.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You truly are an idiot. A negative wouldn't be a prime. And combat prowess would include what I said, fighting and force mastery. Why is that so far fetched? Your poor attempts at sarcasm are in fact humorous, but not the way you would like them to be. They're laughable due to the sheer ignorance they are laced with. In bed? Right, cause that's something that the Jedi partake in. Gambling... same thing. All that were the "Jedi" is to what he was referring. Force mastery and fighting ability make up combat prowess as most, if not all, Jedi utilize the force to aide them while in combat.

Warriors is NOT what the Jedi were supposed to be in their "Golden Age." They were peace keepers who worked with negotiation and compromise. They weren't interested in starting fights. The Golden Age WAS a golden age for them because they didn't have to fight. They had defeated the Sith and brought relative peace to the Galaxy. That has nothing to do with one on one combat ability.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
And you're right, Luke failing to lift his ship far supersedes Anakin skydiving hundred of stories through traffic to land on the ONE speeder he was aiming for. Collapsing a building just by yelling. Throwing a Jedi Temple statue through a wall. The aforementioned showings listed by Sids 66. The incredible lava surfing and super jumps to land on a piece of metal just big enough for your feet.Yea. they've done nothing. Luke pwns them all.

Are you not going to source the "aforementioned showings listed by Sids 66" either? Come on man.

And when the hell did Anakin collapse a building by yelling or throw a Temple statue through a wall? You aren't referring to the ROTS game are you? The rest of the feats are impressive, but don't demonstrate raw power in the same sense as the X-wing showing.

I'm not saying that Luke is all around better than Anakin or Obi-wan by any means, but he did show very impressive Force power lifting the X-wing as high as he did. And may I remind you that this was only about half way into his training with Yoda. From when he got to Dagobagh to then, he went from barely pulling his lightsaber from the snow to the X-wing feat. Who knows how much more powerful he got by the time he left. Add in the additional teaching at Ben's house on Tatooine, and by ROTJ he was for all intents and purposes pretty damn capable. Granted, Sidious floored him with lightning, but Luke didn't have his saber to block with. He'd have to be Yoda to do that and I'm NOT claiming anything like that.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Warriors is NOT what the Jedi were supposed to be in their "Golden Age." They were peace keepers who worked with negotiation and compromise. They weren't interested in starting fights. The Golden Age WAS a golden age for them because they didn't have to fight. They had defeated the Sith and brought relative peace to the Galaxy. That has nothing to do with one on one combat ability. Lucas did not say they were in their golden age. He said they were in their prime, and he was refering to combat prowess. He said something like "You will see the jedi in their prime". He was talking about the prequel trilogy. It was a way of getting the veiwers excited to see a lot more action. Lucas was not talking about their prime in peace, since the PT is mainly about a galaxy wide conflict.

A jedi's philosophy is negotiation first, yes. But they are more then just negotiators. They were training to refight the old wars with the sith



Why not? Because you don't like it? They came from canon sources. One of them being ROTS, and the other was the newer clone wars cartoon.

Labyrinth of Evil.

Not sure about this one.

He wasn't

Way more impressive than anything Luke did at that point.


That was a good demonstration of raw power to you?

He was not even close at lifting it. He shook it some and then it sunk even deeper than before.

The point is Luke has not shown the raw power in ROTJ as Anakin did by ROTS, or even as much skill. Luke is not capable of standing against Sidious. He would get floored even with a saber.

Why is it so hard to accept that the average Jedi of the PT>the average Jedi in the previous eras. Blanket statements like the one Lucas made can't be applied to individuals, but rather the Order as a whole. In general, on average, the PT Jedi are more combat-capable than any other. Individuals excluded.

Sidious 66, I'm not going to argue with both of you.

Glen, I apologize for my being a little brash before. It was uncalled for at that juncture. However, the "training he got from Ben at his house" was like a few hours max. He went there, got his sense back along with a brief history lesson, and then went home to see. Along the way they found the Jawas and then made it home to find his uncle and aunt burned up. Then they went to Mos Eisly (spelling?) and got with Han and Chewy, and the rest is, as they say, history.

I know that given his natural potential (thanks Dad, aka Anakin) that under Yoda he progressed rather quickly, but not to the point to contend with these guys.

After ESB he spent several months at Ben's house studying.

Studying what? What's the source for that?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Studying what? What's the source for that?

Are you serious? You think Luke just magically learned how to create a lightsaber on his own or that he just found his new green one before ROTJ?

After ESB Luke did go to Ben's house and learned how to construct a lightsaber I believe it's in Shadows of the empire but I could be wrong.

Am I serious for asking for the source that states that? Um...yea. What kind of artifacts could possibly be left behind? You think OB1 put a tutorial on youtube on how to create a lightsaber? Look, I know he constructed his green saber in Ben's old house, but I was reading something where Jedi were told how to do it and had to call upon the force to help them. What if Ben was out getting milk one day and some crackhead tusken raider broke in looking for stereo equipment to pawn to Watto for a quick fix, and they look down... oh shit, a detailed owner's manual on how to build a saber!?! Now doesn't that see silly? To the best of my knowledge, OB1 didn't have any holocrons or archives from the temples, so really... or seriously, what was he studying?

In the Shadows of the Empire book it says that Ben had left things for Luke to study from. This is how he learned to build his saber and, presumably, Force Choke those Gamorreans. Who knows what else he did for SEVERAL MONTHS there. Watch TV?

Right, because OB1 always went around choking people. We never see Anakin being taught that... he just did it when he was enraged and using the darkside. Luke doing that was done to show the similarities between him and Vader, along with his all black outfit. So basically, you all have no idea what he did there,save for building a lightsaber? Just say that then.

How is choking a person someone all that complex? It's just an applied form of TK that for some bizarre reason is considered "Dark Side".

Can you point out to me when I said it was complex? I said that OB1 never did it because its considered a darkside attack. It's using the force to offensively and purposely kill someone.

Granted Luke only did it to the point of unconsciousness, but it was purposely done, along with a few other things, to show the similarities between him and his father.

Easy peezy Lemon-squeezy. Autokrat was directing no venom at you.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Am I serious for asking for the source that states that? Um...yea. What kind of artifacts could possibly be left behind? You think OB1 put a tutorial on youtube on how to create a lightsaber? Look, I know he constructed his green saber in Ben's old house, but I was reading something where Jedi were told how to do it and had to call upon the force to help them. What if Ben was out getting milk one day and some crackhead tusken raider broke in looking for stereo equipment to pawn to Watto for a quick fix, and they look down... oh shit, a detailed owner's manual on how to build a saber!?! Now doesn't that see silly? To the best of my knowledge, OB1 didn't have any holocrons or archives from the temples, so really... or seriously, what was he studying?

well you kind of answered that one on your own yes obi-wan DID leave instructions on HOW to create a lightsaber. It does still take the force to attune a crystal into the right positions to make the lightsaber work properly also if you recall Ullic built a lightsaber AFTER he was stripped of the force so it IS possible for non force sensatives to create a lightsaber if they know how.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Right, because OB1 always went around choking people. We never see Anakin being taught that... he just did it when he was enraged and using the darkside. Luke doing that was done to show the similarities between him and Vader, along with his all black outfit. So basically, you all have no idea what he did there,save for building a lightsaber? Just say that then.

So then what was Luke doing for all that time he spent studing at Obi-wan's house?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Easy peezy Lemon-squeezy. Autokrat was directing no venom at you. Nor was I.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
well you kind of answered that one on your own yes obi-wan DID leave instructions on HOW to create a lightsaber. It does still take the force to attune a crystal into the right positions to make the lightsaber work properly also if you recall Ullic built a lightsaber AFTER he was stripped of the force so it IS possible for non force sensatives to create a lightsaber if they know how. Why would he leave a written down tutorial on how to build one? Why wouldn't have just learned that from Yoda, lost daddy's, then go back to Ben's hut and build it from what Yoda taught him? I'm really only arguing the point of what Ben left there for him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So then what was Luke doing for all that time he spent studing at Obi-wan's house? Exactly my point. We don't know. But whatever it was, it wasn't enough for him to be in the league of these guys...

You'd think Ben would have at least left a note telling Luke than Lightsabers are great for blocking Force Lightning.

Nah, probably just used them for bug zappers, a la Family Guy.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You'd think Ben would have at least left a note telling Luke than Lightsabers are great for blocking Force Lightning.

Yes, remember kids, do not throw away your lightsaber just to prove your point. Imagine if Yoda did that in his battle with Sidious.


*Yoda throws away lightsaber after entering room*

"Jedi, I am!!!!1!1!!111"

*Zap, dead*

dumbest single thing from all the movies is that Yoda and KEnobi never bothered to mention force-lightning when they were sending Luke to destroy the Empire.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Exactly my point. We don't know. But whatever it was, it wasn't enough for him to be in the league of these guys...

He was stated to be studying the Force. I don't understand why partially pulling an X-wing out of a swamp doesn't seem like a big deal to you. Yoda was impressed at what he saw until Luke gave up. And then since he stayed with Yoda for a long time after that and got even more powerful.

Why would he leave a written down tutorial on how to build one? Why wouldn't have just learned that from Yoda, lost daddy's, then go back to Ben's hut and build it from what Yoda taught him? I'm really only arguing the point of what Ben left there for him.


Why did darth maul just stand there when Obi wan jumped over him? I don't know. BUT obi wanDID have plans on how to make a LS in his house on tattoine. I never said it made sense or that you had to like it but it is canon.

yeah, i read that. its in some book between ESB and ROTJ (courtship of princess leia, perhaps?)

I'm not certain, but yeah, he does find plans and builds one. its weird,there is absolutely no reason for written instructions on tatooine. Yoda teaching Luke to make one on dagobah makes MUCH more sense.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
Why did darth maul just stand there when Obi wan jumped over him? I don't know. BUT obi wanDID have plans on how to make a LS in his house on tattoine. I never said it made sense or that you had to like it but it is canon. OK, find the source.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
He was stated to be studying the Force. I don't understand why partially pulling an X-wing out of a swamp doesn't seem like a big deal to you. Yoda was impressed at what he saw until Luke gave up. And then since he stayed with Yoda for a long time after that and got even more powerful. The most important thing you said there was "he gave up." Plus, he barely moved it. Not impressive. I think Yoda was more of getting ready to be impressed.

Why do people always make up stuff like "force choke" and claim that you have to learn to use it? It's just TK, only you use TK to Force together someone's windpipe...Jedi typically don't use it because it's somewhat dark.

FL is another story though.

I hope to your Christ that you aren't referring to me.

No, of course not. Just people in general. Seriously. Many people claim that "X doesn't know how to use FC!" which makes no sense.

Well that's what I was saying. In fact, it went a little something like this:

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
In the Shadows of the Empire book it says that Ben had left things for Luke to study from. This is how he learned to build his saber and, presumably, Force Choke those Gamorreans. Who knows what else he did for SEVERAL MONTHS there. Watch TV?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Right, because OB1 always went around choking people. We never see Anakin being taught that... he just did it when he was enraged and using the darkside. Luke doing that was done to show the similarities between him and Vader, along with his all black outfit. So basically, you all have no idea what he did there,save for building a lightsaber? Just say that then.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
The most important thing you said there was "he gave up." Plus, he barely moved it. Not impressive. I think Yoda was more of getting ready to be impressed.

Go re-watch the movie. He lifted it several feet. This while he is already exhausted from intense training. Yeah, he gave up, but what he did accomplish is impressive enough on its own, especially when coupled with the fact that he got significantly more training afterwards.

http://starwars.yahoo.com/videos/prime-of-the-jedi

pwnd