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Darth Cadeus



vs.




Darth Bane

Originally posted by the Darkone
Darth Cadeus



vs.




Darth Bane With Orbalisks? Or not.

why again? This one is done repeatedly. over and over and over again. over and over and over again? yes. over and over and over again.

Originally posted by mattatom
With Orbalisks? Or not. If I believed in God, I would damn you right now.

and caedous wins

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If I believed in God, I would damn you right now. Why so? Hey it had to be asked

Its to be taken as a given around here. Usually only if he's not with his seashells does it get special mention.

And Cadeus wins.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Its to be taken as a given around here. Usually only if he's not with his seashells does it get special mention.

And Cadeus wins. I know it is, it's just fun to ask.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt


And Cadeus wins.

How? What exactly has Caedus done that makes him super uber? I don't recall him doing that much...

ya competeing in LOTF Lukes league in saber combat and force mastery isn't anything special.........

Of course not. LotF Luke is way too overrated around here. He manipulated a black hole. So what? Bane could benchpress 920.

AND he can manipulate stuff at the molecular level something no one else has demonstrated...........

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
AND he can manipulate stuff at the molecular level something no one else has demonstrated........... Apart from Jaina as a child

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
AND he can manipulate stuff at the molecular level something no one else has demonstrated........... So? Does that make vegere an ub3r jedi or sith seeing she did the same thing to a holocron?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So? Does that make vegere an ub3r jedi or sith seeing she did the same thing to a holocron?
Umm... Sarcasm.

Let's point out that there's a difference between atomic and molecular, too. I've heard statements about different characters being able to do both, respectively.

either way neither of those really matter and equal to nothing in a combat scenario.

It does if he contended with Luke in battle.

Luke being able to center himself to the point that the black hole that holds the galaxy together couldn't move him, is, IMO his most impressive feat. That or the cloaking the planet in the force thing. (for someone reason I feel like i'm completely missing something too...)

but i would put both of those in front of the dovin basil feat.

Originally posted by truejedi
Luke being able to center himself to the point that the black hole that holds the galaxy together couldn't move him, is, IMO his most impressive feat. That or the cloaking the planet in the force thing. (for someone reason I feel like i'm completely missing something too...)

but i would put both of those in front of the dovin basil feat.

Wait... what?

Luke was able to keep himself from being moved by a supermassive black hole? A piece of natural phenomena with a mass in the order of millions (potentially billions) greater than the entire solar system?

I'm really hoping he was near the edges of the event horizon.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Wait... what?

Luke was able to keep himself from being moved by a supermassive black hole? A piece of natural phenomena with a mass in the order of millions (potentially billions) greater than the entire solar system?

I'm really hoping he was near the edges of the event horizon.

This really happened, surprisingly. Probably the most impressive feat in the SW mythos. Yet he couldn't defeat a member of the lost tribe of the sith. Gotta love GL

Originally posted by Autokrat
Wait... what?

Luke was able to keep himself from being moved by a supermassive black hole? A piece of natural phenomena with a mass in the order of millions (potentially billions) greater than the entire solar system?

I'm really hoping he was near the edges of the event horizon.

Yeah, it was in Dark Nest. Though it is important to make the distinction that the black hole wasn't actually TRYING to move him, it just stated that it "nothing, not even the black hole in the center of the galaxy" could have moved him.

Ya it's that was rad. My favorite feat of Luke's is up for debate and I didn't even realize it till we did project holocron and Gideon was the guy who actually helped me figure it out even though he never realized it.

It was in the NJO when him jaina and Jacen were in a battlemeld fighting everyone and how the most logical explanation was that jaina and jacen were drawing off of not only their power reserves but Luke's as well and He was still rocking house.

xxxpoppunker182
Ya it's that was rad. My favorite feat of Luke's is up for debate and I didn't even realize it till we did project holocron and Gideon was the guy who actually helped me figure it out even though he never realized it.

It was in the NJO when him jaina and Jacen were in a battlemeld fighting everyone and how the most logical explanation was that jaina and jacen were drawing off of not only their power reserves but Luke's as well and He was still rocking house.

It's not up for debate. Everything Luke did after the battlemeld was destroyed, i.e. Jacen and Jaina being rendered unconscious and/or kidnapped by Onimi, was by virtue of his own feats.

Everything prior to that, according to the Essential Guide to the Force, was the product of a Jedi battlemeld, in which all three contributed, basically pooling their reserves of Force energy into a mammoth spring of power. It also enhanced their skill and coordination and was "a technique simply couldn't match."

Originally posted by Gideon
It's not up for debate. Everything Luke did after the battlemeld was destroyed, i.e. Jacen and Jaina being rendered unconscious and/or kidnapped by Onimi, was by virtue of his own feats.

Everything prior to that, according to the Essential Guide to the Force, was the product of a Jedi battlemeld, in which all three contributed, basically pooling their reserves of Force energy into a mammoth spring of power. It also enhanced their skill and coordination and was "a technique simply couldn't match."

So jacen and jaina combined have better/more force reserves than Luke?

xxxpoppunker182
So jacen and jaina combined have better/more force reserves than Luke?

Never said that.

A conclusion of the source material that Luke, Jaina, and Jacen's combined Force reserves > Luke's Force reserves, which should be obvious to anyone.

The fact of the matter is that the Essential Guide makes it abundantly clear: that feat of him taking on an army was not the product of his own energies and skill, but rather a heightened combination of three very talented fighters.

and i agree with that it just makes more sense that Lukes energies are the MAIN source of of the 3 combined. And that Jaina and Jacen were drawing off of the pool of energy bringing them closer to luke slvl and him going down closer to their lvl so instead of having 1 really awesome jedi and 2 mediocre jedi that they now have 3 awesome jedi.

Or somethin like that i can't remeber exactly how i wrded it and either way It doesnt matter because in your opinion and my opinion on Lotf luke we just don't see eye to eye.

it has merit, because it doesn't make sense that Jaina and Jacen could somehow make Luke better, since he is better than either of them.

Luke, on the other hand, could make Jacen and Jaina better.

Not necessarily right. I honestly, don't really care. But it isn't a ludicrous thought.

i guess the way i see it is like this

there are 100 force points in the pool

Luke provided 65 of the points and jaina and jacen contributed 17.5 points each making it 35 points

luke uses 35 points jacen uses 33 points and jaina uses 32

i haven't a problem with that, in ROT, the one Jedi using a battle med. sat out the battle, because he couldn't contribute to the fight, and provide "points to the pool" at the same time. Here, Luke is contributing, and fighting as well.

xxxpoppunker182
It doesnt matter because in your opinion and my opinion on Lotf luke we just don't see eye to eye.

You're right: it doesn't matter, but not for the reasons you cite. The Essential Guide makes it abundantly clear that the battlemeld enhances the abilities of all Jedi involved which doesn't translate to Luke, in his infinite power, wisdom, knowledge, and handsomeness, lowering himself to allow Jacen and Jaina to draw upon Luke's abilities.

Hell, why would they? Jacen himself would later become the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record during his battle with Onimi, surpassing this state of Luke's and then some.

Originally posted by Gideon

Hell, why would they? Jacen himself would later become the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record during his battle with Onimi, surpassing this state of Luke's and then some.

I had forgotten that. Does it actually say that? I was thinking the insinuation was that it was Jacen's most powerful manifestation of the Force ever. Not that I don't believe you, I just don't remember.

Side note as well:
(Oh, and since DN happened AFTER that, it would mean Luke still could theoretically taken that title from him with the "centered completely in the heart of the force....black hole, center of galaxy... etc." moment.


Also, in discussing the dovin basil, i don't think that feat compares to the DN moment. So when touting Luke's greatest feats, the DN moment should be considered, not the former.

The very concept of "pooling" your powers means to put them all together, then mutually utilize them.If you have three people buying a pizza, and one person puts in $7 and the other two only put in $4 a piece, you can still all get the same amount of pizza. It's not a "you each get out what you each put in" type of thing. That would be no different then each of them using their own powers.

truejedi
I had forgotten that. Does it actually say that? I was thinking the insinuation was that it was Jacen's most powerful manifestation of the Force ever. Not that I don't believe you, I just don't remember.

The Essential Guide to the Force says that Jacen "briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record." And this is during Legacy of the Force.



Not when the document was compiled and written, sorry.



The Dark Nest feat was extremely badass.

Originally posted by Gideon
Luke, in his infinite power, wisdom, knowledge, and handsomeness

I've never seen this side of you Gideon....

as to your argument about Jacen that doesn't matter. It's a different scenario just like the difference between anakin fighting dooku and anakin "in the zone" fighting dooku.

the scenario's have changed which is exactly what happened with jacen.

You yourself stated that Luke is the deadliest or best combatant in the SW mythos or something along those lines. AND that his raw power is above Sidious's. By the time of LOTF or the END of LOTF Luke is more powerful than DE sidious. Sidious is a close second behind him and in any fight between the 2 Luke is going to be very hardpressed to win and IMO he would win like 6/10 times.

this might make a little more sense too and I'm using your own words here. Luke "when he wants to be" is more powerful than anyone else in the SW mythos.

on a totally unrelated note hows the reconstruction thing goin it sounds interesting and I really wanna read through it.

poppunker182
I've never seen this side of you Gideon....

my disguise has slipped, egads!



It really does matter: Jacen apparently had enough energy and skill within him to, however briefly, become the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record -- surpassing, for a short time, Luke or the Emperor. So why he would be desperate for Luke's reserves of Force energy is... interesting.



The "scenario" is thus: the Essential Guide says that it was the product of a Jedi battlemeld. Luke's feats were not by virtue of his own natural strength, but a shared demonstration of power with Jacen and Jaina and of which he was the focal point. Meaning Luke did not slay an army with his own uber-l33t skillz. And nothing suggests he could replicate the feat again.

It is not, sir, up for discussion 'til Lucas gives you the power to overturn canon.



See, this is the problem. I write a multi-page essay conclusively proving Sidious's status relative to others, and not only do you not accept it, but your counter-offer is an unsubstantiated line: "by the end of LotF Luke is more powerful than Sidious."

No.

In fact, hell no. This treads very closely to the DS rule of thought where we can just disregard canon whenever we please under three letter acronyms like PIS or CIS or something.

No.

No, Luke is not the strongest until you prove it. Saying it over and over and over again simply convinces you, not the rest of us. If you don't show any respect for my contention, proven by countless feats and quotes, why should I have any respect for yours, which is considerably less?

It's a combination of simple truths: Sidious's knowledge of the Force > Luke's knowledge of the Force, by miles. Sidious's mastery of the Force > Luke's mastery of the Force.

Raw power means jack. Otherwise, Anakin Skywalker circa Revenge of the Sith would absolutely annihilate both Luke and Sidious. So unless you want to agree to that, it's time to move on.



When Luke wants to be, there are very few in the mythos who can touch him. Nowhere does a source state or suggest that he's more powerful than anyone ever.



Sign up.

You have to love Gideon's inability to read or interpret things correctly, instead electing to making shit up on the level of Eminence or RH..

Nobody ignored canon Gideon. If I said "This did NOT happen", that would be ignoring canon. No, what me and the majority of the people have suggested was that what happened was mainly determined by circumstance. Your only response is "nuh uh its canon". Wonderful.

Originally posted by Gideon


It's a combination of simple truths: Sidious's knowledge of the Force > Luke's knowledge of the Force, by miles.
I agree and so does canon. Luke's knowledge isn't even close to that of sids yoda, odan, possibly even jacen although one could argue that jacen knows things luke doesnt but 'm sure Luke has learned things jacen hasn't like under sids. but there really isn't anything to substantiate this.

as to jacen becoming the most powerful manifestation and why. I still think my argument stands. IMO after the meld was broken it's not like luke and jacen and jaina were just out of force reserves and when one goes into "in the zone" state I don't think their force reserves, knowledge, or mastery of the force even matter. Just their potential. Because it's no longer them in a sense it's the force using them as an avatar for a time. same thing when anakin solo died.

To my knowledge the the force has a will of it's own and this thought isn't ludicrous.



This is up for debate. my reasons for this are(and here is where we differ in opinion because we can match up force feats of sids and Luke and to you sids force storm> Lukes ability to make real physical clones of ships, people, and stuff. where in my opinion it's the other way around)

Luke

In DN you are aware of his not being able to be moved by a The black hole at the center of the galaxy. which is bigger than any of the other black holes in their galaxy.

He can make physical copies of himself, others, ships. I'm sure you are aware of when he did it in DN and it drained him but by Betrayal he could do it without much effort.

You know he manipulated black whole and all that stuff. In fact you know everything that I could list so I don't think I need to bother.

I'd like to say I don't think anything the emperor has done is on this level of using the force like these two feats and there is nothing that can state what palpatine has done is a bigger more impressive feat than these BUT the exact same could be said towards luke. It is a matter of opinion as to who's force feats are greater/more impressive.

also I signed up last night just waiting for approval

Yep. He makes copies of himself. I'm wondering if it was Luke's copy that had Jacen in the force hold because as I recall, nobody saw Luke on board prior to this engagement and after.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yep. He makes copies of himself. I'm wondering if it was Luke's copy that had Jacen in the force hold because as I recall, nobody saw Luke on board prior to this engagement and after.

That is exactly how I read that too but it is only alluded to it's never stated and the only thing aside from no one seeing him prior was that Caedous stops and mentions how he didn't expect him to be on the cockpit 5 minutes after talking to him but not really giving it a second thought.

Yea it happened more than once is what I was saying. He did that to Jacen on multiple occasions, among the illusion of a fleet to confuse Jacen.

In my opinion that alone surpasses Sidious abilities and it's something that sidious flat out can't do. In fact no one BUT luke can.

This whole black hole thing kinda gets thrown into question when you think about it being COMPLETELY out of line with the rest of Luke's capabilities. Hyperbole, anyone?

I've got some time to kill before my last, dreaded class.



I'm not sure you really offered a position, much less an argument. The Essential Guide to the Force explicitly states that when Jacen entered his battle with Onimi, he "briefly became the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record." The guide was written well into Legacy of the Force, specifically after the murder of Mara Jade Skywalker. It has taken into account Luke's feats in the New Jedi Order and Dark Nest series respectively, and the collective minds of the Jedi agree that Jacen's feat > Luke's feat of "rooting himself into the heart of the Force."

I'm not arguing what it takes to enter into such a state. Numerous characters seemingly become one with the Force at will. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku throughout Revenge of the Sith, Galen Marek during the Force Unleashed, and Luke Skywalker in the Dark Nest crisis: numerous characters have entered into such a state on numerous occasions. How and why, and what exactly it requires to do so is unknown.



Asserting that Luke's ability to summon illusions and deceive the mentally deranged is more potent than Sidious's Force Storms or the blunting of Jedi sensitivity seems rather baseless. I could also assert that, since Jacen manipulated Luke via illusion in the final book in the Dark Nest trilogy as well as enjoyed "the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record," that he is more powerful than either Luke or Sidious. Likewise, I could assert that Yoda deflecting Dooku's Force lightning is greater than all of Luke's or Sidious's feats and when you disagree, chalk it up to a difference in opinion.

Opinions are fine. But when it comes to an application in an argument, bias must be checked at the door.

Analyze all feats, for example. Sidious's Force Storms were capable of devouring fleets of ships, each one capable of resisting gigatons of damage. They were also sufficient to "tear the surfaces off worlds" and teleport Luke Skywalker from Coruscant to a dungeon ship en route to Byss. The conjuring of such storms also required "mere thought or inclination."

That seems a great deal more powerful than manipulating a Sith Lord into thinking that there is a fleet out to kill him.

Likewise, if we're to compare mental manipulations: Darth Sidious exerted telepathic control over both General Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil and Galen Marek in the Force Unleashed novelization. He wasn't exploiting them, as Luke was with Jacen, he was exerting mental dominance over them, compelling them to obey his commands. Likewise, I could also point out that Sidious actively diminished the powers and senses of the collective Jedi at their height: ten thousand Jedi Knights and Masters spread over the distance of a galaxy. And he did so for thirteen years while simultaneously keeping his presence hidden with the Quey'tek discipline for hiding one's self in the Force.

If you're going to tell me that exacerbating paranoia in a mentally deranged Sith Lord > overwhelming ten thousand Jedi, I'm afraid we have a problem.

(The correct answer: Sidious's superiority in this regard is nigh incalculable.)



A considerable, badass feat, yes. Yet I fail to see how this means that he is more powerful than the Emperor. You'll notice that Shimrra was able to force Luke to bow via manipulation of a dovin basal, until Jacen reversed it through Vongsense. Perhaps hyperbole? Perhaps it was due to the benefits afforded by rooting one's self into the heart of the Force? Who knows.



I do recall him making illusions, yes. I do not recall the copies being manifest, i.e. Luke summoning matter from thin air.



A feat which, as I mentioned earlier, has yet to be substantiated or analyzed. Did he overpower the black hole in a tug-o'-war match or something else? When it's analyzed, I'll happily concede that point.



But this isn't the case. You're looking evidence straight in the eye and saying that it doesn't matter, because in your opinion, Luke's is better. That's rather like me asserting that Cuba could take the USA in a fight, when all evidence points to the contrary. It might be my opinion, but it doesn't mean diddly in a debate and it certainly doesn't mean that your conclusion is as valid as someone else's.



Validated.

Start contributing!!!!1!oneone!



Prove that.

Originally posted by Gideon
I've got some time to kill before my last, dreaded class.



I'm not sure you really offered a position, much less an argument. The Essential Guide to the Force explicitly states that when Jacen entered his battle with Onimi, he "briefly became the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record." The guide was written well into Legacy of the Force, specifically after the murder of Mara Jade Skywalker. It has taken into account Luke's feats in the New Jedi Order and Dark Nest series respectively, and the collective minds of the Jedi agree that Jacen's feat > Luke's feat of "rooting himself into the heart of the Force."

I never said that what Jacen did wasn't the most powerful force feat ever recorded.



the thing with jacen is that he doesn't the the control to just become that manifestation at will. that's why he isn't more powerful than luke or sids.

I understand what you're saying here though and i get it BUT which is the better feat winning WW1 winning WW2 winning the revolutionary war or winning the civil war? That is a matter of opinion.

Whats a better feat when Canada stormed and took control of a pirate boat or when we stormed normandy? I think this one is obvious and i don't need to point out which is a greater feat just like whats better Lukes ability to create real physical manifestations of ships(not simply illusions) I.E the jade shadow in DN or Yoda reflecting force lightning? It's obvious.




so just because the darkside offers more destructive powers makes it more powerful than the lightside? I don't think so.

so because force lightning hurts someone and severing someong from the force doesn't, lightning>sever force? no



so since Luke is a jedi and he wouldn't do some of the things sidious would(like killing jacen at the end of LOTF) he isn't as powerful as sidious?





first i was never trying to state this.

second prove that it was sidious ALONE who clouded the jedi's collective mind. Because as I understand it Sids wasn't actively putting forth effort to cloud the jedi every day. It is a culmination of what the sith have been doing for the last 1000 years otherwise before palpatine was even born Yoda or any wise master would have foreseen such a terrible event which is the Jedi purge.



I'm not saying that feat makes Luke more powerful I'm saying that feat can attribute to his mastery of the force.

as to why he didn't do that in the NJO was because either PIS or that he couldn't because he doesn't do it until the end of the DN.





He does it to the jade shadow in the DN it drains him to the point of him physically resembling the emperor. Yes, he did make matter out of thin air which again attributes to his mastery of the force.

In Betrayal it's stated that he can now do this with little effort.





He manipulated the gravity produced by the dovin basal to flip it in on itself. He didn't manipulate the dovin basal itself because at that point in the war no one had Vongsense and they never had the ability to manipulate the vong or their technology. So ya he overpowered a miniature black hole.



all the evidence doesn't point to Luke being inferior to sids and that sids>all in the SW mythos. it does however show that Sids and Luke are both extremely powerful but it shows tha Luke is number 1 and Sids is number 2.

Validated.

Start contributing!!!!1!oneone!





Prove that Luke can't do things Palpatine can do.

because that was exactly your argument.

and what is the highest canon? The way I see it is anything and everything GL states and says. am I right?

You'll have to excuse Gideon. He wasn't even able to offer so much as 1 iota of evidence of Jacen being "deranged", so he thinks repeating it will make it suddenly true. There is nothing to suggest Jacen was deranged. What Luke did had no "circumstances". You lose.


You do realize that he learned this ability in the DE comics right?

Didn't Luke learn the illusion casting from Sidious' Dark Side Compendium.

BTW, how is casting illusions greater than the ability to rip holes in the fabric of space, and shred starfleets?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Didn't Luke learn the illusion casting from Sidious' Dark Side Compendium.

That's what I said lol. Apparently so as he did it to Leia in DE and a couple of times to Jacen during LOTF.

beefington

luke didnt learn the making physical copies of stuff until dn the illusions which is a different power was learned in de. also if u have read lotf u should know that jacen is in every way crazy.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
beefington

luke didnt learn the making physical copies of stuff until dn the illusions which is a different power was learned in de. also if u have read lotf u should know that jacen is in every way crazy.

Where do you get "physical copies" from?

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
beefington

luke didnt learn the making physical copies of stuff until dn the illusions which is a different power was learned in de. also if u have read lotf u should know that jacen is in every way crazy.

Prove it. I've read the entire series more than on one occasion. He's a sith and by his own standards he's as sane as they come. He has an agenda and had one ever since his 5 year sojourn and he's carrying it out. Nothing remotely derranged about that.

And yes, I was talking about the illusion. I wonder which he did with Jacen.

Poppunker
I never said that what Jacen did wasn't the most powerful force feat ever recorded.

Good, then you needn't bring up the two feats in comparison to one another again. Because, as it stands, Jacen was able to root himself into the Force to an extent greater than Luke.



No one is asserting that he is actively more powerful or more skilled than Luke or Sidious. What I'm trying to get at here is that all of Luke's major feats, which required active preparation or rooting one's self into the Force, aren't unique. Obi-Wan and Count Dooku rooted themselves in the Force to a considerable extent in Revenge of the Sith; Obi-Wan was described as a vessel for the Force, its avatar, whereas Dooku became "the axis of the universe." Galen Marek utilized the same technique to hold off the Emperor while simultaneously destroying his body, which combined with the Emperor's deflected lightning, destroyed the observation tower and caused considerable cosmetic damage to the Death Star. Lastly, we see that Jacen himself became one with the Force to an extent that the Essential Guide to the Force considers to be superior to all of Luke's feats of a similar nature.



Not really.



You'll have to quote the relevant passage; my books are spread over three locations: my dorm room, my mom's house, and my dad's. The Dark Nest trilogy is back at my dorm, so I'll need to see the relevant passage.

And it's funny that you think that Yoda's feat is obviously inferior, because I think it's pretty obvious that Force Storms and blunting Jedi sensitivity across a galactic scale > Force-assisted rigor mortis and making one's mentally deranged nephew see a fleet of ships. The degree by which is beyond calculation.



The scale and power of energy (i.e. the Force) is something to consider. Yes, a Force Storm is more powerful than the feats you listed.



Faulty analogy. Severing and/or surpressing the Force abilities of another requires great technique and power to do: you're stifling the abilities of another person, suggesting greater strength.



Luke advocated the assassination (a slightly nicer way to say murder) of Caedus, but was too frightened to do so himself with the risk of falling to the dark side. Luke blew up a Death Star, killing millions of beings in one fell swoop, reiterated over and over again his intentions to kill Lomi Plo in the Dark Nest Crisis, and lastly butchered a Sith assassination team in a cat-and-mouse engagement, utilizing traps and blaster bolts.

As he admits to his son in Sacrifice, he has killed a lot of people. Let's face it, there is a cunning Machiavellian nature to Luke beneath the surface. Is he evil? Hardly. But he's not a saint, either.



Sure seems like it.



You're wrong.

Since you've claimed to read the essay, you'll no doubt remember the part where numerous sources concluded that Palpatine was the cause of the shroud of the dark side. If you want a concise answer: the Revenge of the Sith novelization concludes that "The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow ; it was the darkness."

More importantly, the nature of the Force began to change a hundred years or so prior to the coming of Darth Sidious. But Labyrinth of Evil noted that the Jedi weren't concerned; it clearly didn't diminish their capacity to use the Force.

And, by the way, if Palpatine's foresight isn't infallible, what leads you to believe that the Jedi, who subscribe to the notion that the Force is constantly in motion, would somehow enjoy superiority in that department? The fact that they did not sense the coming purges does not mean that their sense has always been blunted.

It was Palpatine.



Luke's mastery of the Force is not yet on the Emperor's level.



Or, better yet, perhaps (as Glentract has suggested) the feat itself is PIS? You shouldn't have opened the door on that one...



The passage, please.



Even if what you say is true, it's not exactly something that places him above the Emperor, otherwise Wyyrlok and Andeddu would be on par with Luke as well.



Quote the relevant passage and submit it to a thread.



For someone who has repeated "it's opinion, it's opinion," you sure do seem to be rather conclusive at this point.

Make up your mind.

As for the statement itself, no, Palpatine's feats eclipse Luke's.



Sorry, no, but I don't have to prove a negative. You made the claim: Palpatine can't replicate Luke's feats.

Now prove it or concede.

Gideon, I agree with most of what you're saying, but you did make the original assertion that the Emperor was beyond Luke (as I recall - but I could be wrong). And the whole prove a negative argument is kind of... suspect. Could one prove that a youngling can neither block, nor produce lightning? Of course. It's just becoming like the last theme around here of "absence of proof isn't proof of absence." That was used for a couple months, then was retired. Besides, we both know that you can prove that, if you so choose.

But, if it's him making the assertion (i.e. I was wrong about you making the inverse originally), then yes, the onus would be on him to produce reasonable and substantial evidence.

Darth Subjekt
Gideon, I agree with most of what you're saying, but you did make the original assertion that the Emperor was beyond Luke (as I recall - but I could be wrong). And the whole prove a negative argument is kind of... suspect. Could one prove that a youngling can neither block, nor produce lightning? Of course. It's just becoming like the last theme around here of "absence of proof isn't proof of absence." That was used for a couple months, then was retired. Besides, we both know that you can prove that, if you so choose.

But, if it's him making the assertion (i.e. I was wrong about you making the inverse originally), then yes, the onus would be on him to produce reasonable and substantial evidence.

I made the claim that the evidence points to the Emperor being more powerful than Luke, and provided it. Nowhere did I say that the two necessarily possessed exclusive powers.

I don't have to prove that Luke can't perform the Emperor's feats. That's what the opposition is there to do.

Well, then as I said, were I wrong in that aspect, then yes, the burden of proof is on him. Just chiming in with the interest of being fair. I know how you like to bully people, you big, burly, hulking man, you.

<3

Gideon, POP QUIZ! Journey's foreign lead singer's name, who sounds remarkably close to SP!?!?!?!


GO!

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Gideon, POP QUIZ! Journey's foreign lead singer's name, who sounds remarkably close to SP!?!?!?!


GO! Arnel Pineda.

Night all.

If anyone can give me a good feat of Lukes that wasnt the result of a battlemeld or non comb at situation, then I would not say Bane wins.

I would say that now due to the fact that even if Luke cloaks himself AND hides in the force, Bane would just send out a shockwave forcing him to drop the cloak and then cut off his head or something.


Some1 plz prove me wrong.




PLZ.

^ Bingo.

Arnel Pineda, or if you believe it, Steve Augeri. Love both of them.

HOw about Luke's ability to simply take the weapon out of someone's hand, and put it in his own? (learned in Omen) If Luke had so chosen, he could have won the fight in Abyss by having a live detonator appear beside each Sith as they entered the station.

Unless of course, we are going to arbitrarily limit the feat to stone...

Anyone else still waiting on Gideon's proof that Caedus was deranged?

Hop on MSN for a second.

I have to install it again hold on..

But can Luke do the same thing to other force users and their lightsabers?

Originally posted by truejedi
HOw about Luke's ability to simply take the weapon out of someone's hand, and put it in his own? (learned in Omen) If Luke had so chosen, he could have won the fight in Abyss by having a live detonator appear beside each Sith as they entered the station.

Unless of course, we are going to arbitrarily limit the feat to stone...

I can't remember him doing this at all. I'm not saying he didn't, but you're saying he just teleported someones weapon into his hand?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I can't remember him doing this at all. I'm not saying he didn't, but you're saying he just teleported someones weapon into his hand?

It;s called the folded space technique first invented in star wars D20 and yes luke did learn the ability in omen.

@gideon I will come back with a rebuttal either tomorrow or MI'm very busy today and tomorrow.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I can't remember him doing this at all. I'm not saying he didn't, but you're saying he just teleported someones weapon into his hand?

Omen, Pg. 229

possibility it doesn't extend to all materials though. (as referenced earlier in the novel.)

Wow, totally didn't realize the significance of that when I read through it. Never played D20, so what is the deal with it? Are there defense's against it?

d20?