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First, it is important to point out that “so many” is not an accurate characterization. It may seem like many evangelical Christian leaders are caught in scandals, but this is due to the vast amount of attention such scandals are given. There are thousands of evangelical Christian leaders, pastors, professors, missionaries, writers, and evangelists who have never participated in anything “scandalous.” The vast majority of evangelical Christian leaders are men and women who love God, are faithful to their spouses and families, and handle their activities with the utmost honesty and integrity. The failures of a few should not be used to attack the character of all.

With that said, there is still the problem that scandals do sometimes occur among those claiming to be evangelical Christians. Prominent Christian leaders have been exposed for committing adultery or participating in prostitution. Some evangelical Christians have been convicted of tax fraud and other financial illegalities. Why does this occur? There are at least three primary explanations: 1) Some of those claiming to be evangelical Christians are unbelieving charlatans, 2) some evangelical Christian leaders allow their position to result in pride, and 3) Satan and his demons more aggressively attack and tempt those in Christian leadership because they know that a scandal involving a leader can have devastating results, on both Christians and non-Christians.

1) Some “evangelical Christians” who are caught in scandals are unredeemed charlatans and false prophets. Jesus warned, “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves … Therefore by their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7:15-20). False prophets pretend to be godly men and women and appear to be solid evangelical leaders. However, their “fruit” (scandals) eventually reveals them to be the opposite of what they claimed to be. In this, they follow the example of Satan, “And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

2) The Bible makes it clear that “pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall” (Proverbs 16:18). James 4:6 reminds us that “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” The Bible repeatedly warns against pride. Many Christian leaders begin a ministry in a spirit of humility and reliance upon God, but as the ministry grows and thrives, they are tempted to take some of this glory for themselves. Some evangelical Christian leaders, while paying lip-service to God, actually attempt to manage and build the ministry in their own strength and wisdom. This type of pride leads to a fall. God, through the prophet Hosea, warned, “When I fed them, they were satisfied; when they were satisfied, they became proud; then they forgot me” (Hosea 13:6).

3) Satan knows that by instigating a scandal with an evangelical Christian leader, he can have a powerful impact. Just as King David’s adultery with Bathsheba and arranged murder of Uriah caused great damage to David’s family and the entire nation of Israel, so has many a church or ministry been damaged or destroyed by the moral failure of its leader. Many Christians have had their faith weakened as a result of seeing a leader fall. Non-Christians use the failure of “Christian” leaders as a reason to reject Christianity. Satan and his demons know this, and therefore direct more of their attacks against those in leadership roles. The Bible warns us all, “Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

How are we to respond when an evangelical Christian leader is accused of or caught in a scandal? 1) Do not listen to or accept baseless and unfounded accusations (Proverbs 18:8, 17; 1 Timothy 5:19). 2) Take appropriate biblical measures to rebuke those who sin (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Timothy 5:20). If the sin is proven and severe, permanent removal from ministry leadership should be enforced (1 Timothy 3:1-13). 3) Forgive those who sin (Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 3:13), and when repentance is proven, restore them to fellowship (Galatians 6:1; 1 Peter 4:8) but not to leadership. 4) Be faithful in praying for our leaders. Knowing the problems they deal with, the temptations they suffer, and the stress they must endure, we should be praying for our leaders, asking God to strengthen them, protect them, and encourage them. 5) Most importantly, take the failure of an evangelical Christian leader as a reminder to put your ultimate faith in God and God alone. God never fails, never sins, and never lies. “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of His glory” (Isaiah 6:3).

All three of your threads lately seem to just be "blah blah blah I am going to think of elaborate ways to pretend stuff I disagree with don't count blah blah blah"

Because they are human?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because they are human?

Evangelicals aren't human

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Evangelicals aren't human

I guess, if they are a true Christian, then they have been changed by the holy spirit, and once they have done something wrong, then they show themselves as never having been a true Christian, in the first place.

It hurts my head to think like that.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because they are human?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because they are human?

this, and maybe because they're not really real Christians or something? ugly testimony though, that's for sure. ermm

For a former so-called "Christian" to make such elementary statements escapes my mind. I honestly don't understand your angle. If the teachings of Buddha have brought peace into your life, why do you bicker over trivial issues regarding Christianity -- things that Christians know and have confirmed? Where is your wisdom? You should be teaching and sharing your experiences with Buddhism, not attacking other religions! Are you trying to reason or argue?

Is a backsliding Christian still saved?

Originally posted by ushomefree
For a former so-called "Christian" to make such elementary statements escapes my mind. I honestly don't understand your angle.

Translation: “I can’t argue your point so I’m going to insult you.

Originally posted by ushomefree
If the teachings of Buddha have brought peace into your life, why do you bicker over trivial issues regarding Christianity

Translation: “Why is everyone picking on me?

Originally posted by ushomefree
-- things that Christians know and since confirmed?

You have not confirmed anything; you never debate on this forum.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Where is your wisdom?

Translation: “Insulting you the first time wasn’t enough for me, so I’m going to insult you again.

Originally posted by ushomefree
You should be teaching and sharing your experiences with Buddhism, not attacking other religions! Are you trying to reason or argue?

I have not been attacking anyone.

I have made threads about Buddhism on this forum; Fill free to read them.

BTW This is a debate forum.

Shaky-

Your just throwing it all away, bro.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Shaky-

Your just throwing it all away, bro.

Throwing what away?

Originally posted by ushomefree
For a former so-called "Christian" to make such elementary statements escapes my mind.

You probably wouldn't have classified him as a real Christian to begin with. In fact there's no way you could have.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Is a backsliding Christian still saved?

You've already said that not only is such a person not saved, they were never even Christian to begin with.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I guess, if they are a true Christian, then they have been changed by the holy spirit, and once they have done something wrong, then they show themselves as never having been a true Christian, in the first place.

It hurts my head to think like that. incorrect. The first christians made a multitude of sins and had scandals. did this void them from christianity just because they missed the mark once or twice? no. I don't think that god would expect us to be too much better than the original 12.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
incorrect. The first christians made a multitude of sins and had scandals. did this void them from christianity just because they missed the mark once or twice? no. I don't think that god would expect us to be too much better than the original 12.
Shaky's post was a mockery of Ushomefree's logic. Address all complaints to him.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
incorrect. The first christians made a multitude of sins and had scandals. did this void them from christianity just because they missed the mark once or twice? no. I don't think that god would expect us to be too much better than the original 12.

What King Kandy said. But you have a good point. Didn't the disciples turn their back on Jesus when he was taken by the Romans? According to ushomefree's logic, they were never Christians in the first place.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Shaky's post was a mockery of Ushomefree's logic. Address all complaints to him. oh, then please disregard my post.

C'mon... let's be fair. The disciples feared the Romans, and they fled for their lives. They never renounced the teaches of Jesus and re-subscribed to Jewish teachings/laws. In fact, they later rejoined and lead the Christian movement while experiencing persecution and death.

Originally posted by ushomefree
C'mon... let's be fair. The disciples feared the Romans, and they fled for their lives. They never renounced the teaches of Jesus and re-subscribed to Jewish teachings/laws. In fact, they later rejoined and lead the Christian movement while experiencing persecution and death.

They saw and talked to Jesus, and still they turned away. They came back because they had always been with Jesus. For a time they were ex-Christians.

They're just curious like any other individual and some just wonder what gay s3x on meth feels like.

every other individual wonders what gay sex on meth feels like?

Originally posted by inimalist
every other individual wonders what gay sex on meth feels like?

No that's why I said that "some" wonder

Originally posted by AngryManatee
No that's why I said that "some" wonder

argh!!!!

some day I will learn how to read properly.

Originally posted by ushomefree
C'mon... let's be fair. The disciples feared the Romans, and they fled for their lives. They never renounced the teaches of Jesus and re-subscribed to Jewish teachings/laws. In fact, they later rejoined and lead the Christian movement while experiencing persecution and death.

Peter turned away from jesus, swore, and said that he never knew the man. (jesus's "rock"

David sent a man to die in battle so that he could lay his wife. (god called him a man after his own heart)

Solomon Worshiped false idols.

And do you think its hard for us, here? what about we who are mentally persecuted our entire lives for being christians, us who are called stupid and who the media portrays as evil. We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs. We, in a society surrounded by, based on, and saturated by sex. Do you think it's hard for any christian not to misstep? We are humans, not god. It doesn't make it excusable, but we aren't excommunicated for a sin.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
They're just curious like any other individual and some just wonder what gay s3x on meth feels like. QFT








wait, wut?

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs.

push so hard, eh?

I think you underestimate scientists....

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
who the media portrays as evil.

More than they do atheists?

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs

Scientists aren't looking for proof against your beliefs.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~


And do you think its hard for us, here? what about we who are mentally persecuted our entire lives for being christians, us who are called stupid and who the media portrays as evil. We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs. We, in a society surrounded by, based on, and saturated by sex. Do you think it's hard for any christian not to misstep? We are humans, not god. It doesn't make it excusable, but we aren't excommunicated for a sin.

Holy crazy...

For a time, the disciples were ex-Christian because they fled in fear of Roman persecution?

Originally posted by ushomefree
For a time, the disciples were ex-Christian because they fled in fear of Roman persecution?

No, they were never Christian at all because they denied Christ.

Originally posted by ushomefree
For a time, the disciples were ex-Christian because they fled in fear of Roman persecution?

So, we agree that ex-Christians do exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, we agree that ex-Christians do exist. I think he was asking a question, not making a statement. Though it seems to be impossible that he was agreeing with you in that post.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs.

Scienists don't care about yout beliefs.

"mental persecution" LMAO

sure they care.

Tust me, I was much more engrossed in translational regulation of mammalian iron metabolism than "god."

Thinking all of society is out to get you is a form of paranoia. Just because someone uses facts to question your beliefs...gah...you can't research god. Everything about god is entirely outside of the realm of science. Its like blaming the water for sinking your boat.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
sure they care.

Only historians, sociologists and *a half dozen different mind/brain fields* are even remotely interested in religion as part of their field.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only historians, sociologists and *a half dozen different mind/brain fields* are even remotely interested in religion as part of their field.

and in those instances, it is about the behaviour of religious people or institutions, not about the validity of the beliefs.

I can't think of an actual field of science which actively looks for evidence that is contrary to religious views.

Originally posted by inimalist
and in those instances, it is about the behaviour of religious people or institutions, not about the validity of the beliefs.

I can't think of an actual field of science which actively looks for evidence that is contrary to religious views.
It's called "strawmanology"

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Peter turned away from jesus, swore, and said that he never knew the man. (jesus's "rock"

David sent a man to die in battle so that he could lay his wife. (god called him a man after his own heart)

Solomon Worshiped false idols.

And do you think its hard for us, here? what about we who are mentally persecuted our entire lives for being christians, us who are called stupid and who the media portrays as evil. We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs. We, in a society surrounded by, based on, and saturated by sex. Do you think it's hard for any christian not to misstep? We are humans, not god. It doesn't make it excusable, but we aren't excommunicated for a sin.

about this post.

Don't judge me. In order to persuade crazy you have to talk crazy.

touche...

Originally posted by Ordo
Tust me, I was much more engrossed in translational regulation of mammalian iron metabolism than "god."

Thinking all of society is out to get you is a form of paranoia. Just because someone uses facts to question your beliefs...gah...you can't research god. Everything about god is entirely outside of the realm of science. Its like blaming the water for sinking your boat.

i was referring more to the fact that you used a blanket statement. you then used yourself as an example as if you represent everyone. i know that wasnt your intention but still.

im sure there are scientists out there who go out of their way to somehow disprove the existence of god... not everyone thinks as rationally as you do.

id say its just as incorrect to say no one is out to get you as it is to say everyone is.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
im sure there are scientists out there who go out of their way to somehow disprove the existence of god... not everyone thinks as rationally as you do.

in the philosophy of science and how research programmes are constructed, proof of negatives, ie: unicorns don't exist, man X isn't tall, etc., are not allowed for reasons like, you might have missed a unicorn. Scientists, when doing science, by definition, cannot be finding evidence against the existence of God. The best that can be said is that their findings are not congruent with empirical statements found in religious literature, such as the age of the earth.

Scientists have gone out of their way to test things like the Mormon claims of genealogy, which is closer to what we are talking about, but iirc, it was done with the mormon church's consent (maybe even at BYU...) and not with the specific intent of "debunking" the religious claim.

From the scientists I know, and this is those mainly in behavioural science where religion is relevant to some programmes, they are not religious themselves, but seem to spend no time at all on the question. I'd think you would have a better argument if you were saying Liberal arts and philosophy professors go out of their way to disprove religion, scientists have more pressing concerns.

Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it! You doom yourself so drastically with statements like these.

See why it's hard to remain a christian with all these idiots out here that you get grouped together with??

Originally posted by ushomefree
Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

And to understand cause and effect at anything beyond the most basic level you usually need massively complex mathematics, a lifetime of experience or both.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

where did I say science is complex?

I think science is very simple. We have discovered many things, including how to do proper research and what types of questions are answerable through the scientific method, but at its core, science is not complex at all.

and technically, they predict causality to test models built through the analysis of many studies pertaining to the phenomena in question. What happens is only part of it, they have to build a narrative based on the best data about why it is happening as well. Science is not simply the reporting of statistics

And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

Originally posted by ushomefree
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

Now who is being insulting?

Originally posted by ushomefree
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

and such is what I get for taking the time to participate in a thread and answer the points/questions you raise seriously...

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
See why it's hard to remain a christian with all these idiots out here that you get grouped together with??

I mean, on this forum there's JIA and now this BOZO.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!
Maybe if I, haha, pretend to laugh in every post, heh, it will make people like me more. Haha!

rofl (sincere lol)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You probably wouldn't have classified him as a real Christian to begin with. In fact there's no way you could have.



You've already said that not only is such a person not saved, they were never even Christian to begin with.


I have to interject here. Backsliding Christians are still saved. That is a gift that you can not lose. Too much evidence in Scripture support that doctrine. Besides, after the Crucifixtion, Peter and the other disciples went fishing(literaly) instead of carrying on with the Great Commission given them. They backslid until Christ appeared to them and reminded them of what they were called to do. Did Peter and the others lose their salvation? No. Scripture does not indicate anything like that.

I will say that some people do profess Christ, and never live the way they should..even from the moment of conversion. Now, those people were NEVER converted, as you could see by their lack of "fruit". Christ says that you can know true believers by their "fruit", or "works". If someone says he/she was converted, and still lives the same as before he/she was converted, then that person made a false confession of faith..and were never saved to begin with. However, it is possible to show fruit..and then lose faith and give up. Scripture is full of instances like that.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
im sure there are scientists out there who go out of their way to somehow disprove the existence of god... not everyone thinks as rationally as you do.

id say its just as incorrect to say no one is out to get you as it is to say everyone is.

The point being, that if random practicioners of any given profession are not more or less actively trying to disprove the existnace of god, then saying "scientists are trying to disprove god" is as accurate as saying "garbage collectors are trying to disprove god."

ie. NEITHER statement is accurate.

Even if you accept by some delusion that MORE are, its clearly not a majority. The only way you can reach such a conclusion is by percieving the mere presence of deduced fact as an affront to god.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

Not really...

...especially since everyhting can be construed to have a cause and an effect.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
I have to interject here. Backsliding Christians are still saved. That is a gift that you can not lose. Too much evidence in Scripture support that doctrine. Besides, after the Crucifixtion, Peter and the other disciples went fishing(literaly) instead of carrying on with the Great Commission given them. They backslid until Christ appeared to them and reminded them of what they were called to do. Did Peter and the others lose their salvation? No. Scripture does not indicate anything like that.

I was referring to ushome's claim that a person who becomes Christian and then loses faith was never a Christian at all.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
I will say that some people do profess Christ, and never live the way they should..even from the moment of conversion. Now, those people were NEVER converted, as you could see by their lack of "fruit". Christ says that you can know true believers by their "fruit", or "works". If someone says he/she was converted, and still lives the same as before he/she was converted, then that person made a false confession of faith..and were never saved to begin with. However, it is possible to show fruit..and then lose faith and give up. Scripture is full of instances like that.

How would you define "fruit" and "works"?

But more importantly is a person who does, I assume, good deeds as an atheist or Jew or Hindu any less deserving of salvation? Good works strike me as more important than religion.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I was referring to ushome's claim that a person who becomes Christian and then loses faith was never a Christian at all.



How would you define "fruit" and "works"?

But more importantly is a person who does, I assume, good deeds as an atheist or Jew or Hindu any less deserving of salvation? Good works strike me as more important than religion.





I wasn't directing my post at you. I just quoted your post to base my argument about what he said. I didn't feel like looking up the reference you were referring to.

Fruits are just the works that Christians perform. In essence, it refers to preaching the gospel, living a moral life, helping others. In New Testament times, it also referred to performing miracles, casting out devils, speaking in tongues, etc.. However, those things are not done today. I'll explain more about that if you want me to, but I'm not gonna go into detail about that. So, Fruits are just signs that someone is a "true" Christian. They follow Christ by doing His will.

As far as your other question, "works" have nothing to do with salvation. It doesn't matter if you're an atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, or even Christian...you can't earn salvation based on works.
The Bible says that salvation is a GIFT of God, not of WORKS, lest any man should boast. Confessing Christ as your Saviour is the ONLY way to salvation according to the Bible. A man can devote his life to nothing but good deeds, but that is not enough to earn salvation. Like I said, you can't EARN salvation. Salvation is freely given(GIFT) to all that believe and accept Christ as his/her Saviour.

Now, works are important. Christ does ask us to follow His commandments, attend Church, and live moral lives. Not living a Christ-like life is SIN to a Christian, and it is viewed negatively by Christ. However, it has no bearing on salvation....only in the REWARDS a believer receives on the day of judgment. According to the Bible, the believer has to stand in judgment, just as the non-believer. A Christian will be judged not on Salvation, since Christ already paid the debt of SIN for him/her, rather a Christian's judgment is based on the works he/she commited themselves to do as a Christian. The Bible says faithful believers will receive crowns to cast at the feet of Christ on the day of judgment...lazy Christians will receive no crowns and will be greatly embarrassed on that day of judgment. Scripture also hints that faithful believers will be given important responsiblilites in the heavenly kingdom. A lazy Christian will not be appointed to those responsibilities, although he does get to enjoy Heaven. In essence, works are important to a Christian not only because it is what he/she COMMITTED to do when he/she recieved salvation, but it is also important in Heaven when Christ designates responsibilites to His believers.

Originally posted by One Free Man
You doom yourself so drastically with statements like these.

See why it's hard to remain a christian with all these idiots out here that you get grouped together with??

QFT

Because any time you abide by a lifestyle that denies your core nature you're going to slip up, be it being insanely religious and strict or pretending your straight or writing with your off hand.