Why are so many evangelical Christian leaders caught in scandals?

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ushomefree

King Kandy
All three of your threads lately seem to just be "blah blah blah I am going to think of elaborate ways to pretend stuff I disagree with don't count blah blah blah"

Shakyamunison
Because they are human?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because they are human?

Evangelicals aren't human no expression

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Evangelicals aren't human no expression

I guess, if they are a true Christian, then they have been changed by the holy spirit, and once they have done something wrong, then they show themselves as never having been a true Christian, in the first place.

It hurts my head to think like that.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because they are human?

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because they are human?

this, and maybe because they're not really real Christians or something? ugly testimony though, that's for sure. ermm

ushomefree
For a former so-called "Christian" to make such elementary statements escapes my mind. I honestly don't understand your angle. If the teachings of Buddha have brought peace into your life, why do you bicker over trivial issues regarding Christianity -- things that Christians know and have confirmed? Where is your wisdom? You should be teaching and sharing your experiences with Buddhism, not attacking other religions! Are you trying to reason or argue?

Is a backsliding Christian still saved?

Shakyamunison

ushomefree
Shaky-

Your just throwing it all away, bro.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
Shaky-

Your just throwing it all away, bro.

Throwing what away? confused

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ushomefree
For a former so-called "Christian" to make such elementary statements escapes my mind.

You probably wouldn't have classified him as a real Christian to begin with. In fact there's no way you could have.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Is a backsliding Christian still saved?

You've already said that not only is such a person not saved, they were never even Christian to begin with.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I guess, if they are a true Christian, then they have been changed by the holy spirit, and once they have done something wrong, then they show themselves as never having been a true Christian, in the first place.

It hurts my head to think like that. incorrect. The first christians made a multitude of sins and had scandals. did this void them from christianity just because they missed the mark once or twice? no. I don't think that god would expect us to be too much better than the original 12.

King Kandy
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
incorrect. The first christians made a multitude of sins and had scandals. did this void them from christianity just because they missed the mark once or twice? no. I don't think that god would expect us to be too much better than the original 12.
Shaky's post was a mockery of Ushomefree's logic. Address all complaints to him.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
incorrect. The first christians made a multitude of sins and had scandals. did this void them from christianity just because they missed the mark once or twice? no. I don't think that god would expect us to be too much better than the original 12.

What King Kandy said. But you have a good point. Didn't the disciples turn their back on Jesus when he was taken by the Romans? According to ushomefree's logic, they were never Christians in the first place. wink

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by King Kandy
Shaky's post was a mockery of Ushomefree's logic. Address all complaints to him. oh, then please disregard my post.

ushomefree
C'mon... let's be fair. The disciples feared the Romans, and they fled for their lives. They never renounced the teaches of Jesus and re-subscribed to Jewish teachings/laws. In fact, they later rejoined and lead the Christian movement while experiencing persecution and death.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
C'mon... let's be fair. The disciples feared the Romans, and they fled for their lives. They never renounced the teaches of Jesus and re-subscribed to Jewish teachings/laws. In fact, they later rejoined and lead the Christian movement while experiencing persecution and death.

They saw and talked to Jesus, and still they turned away. They came back because they had always been with Jesus. For a time they were ex-Christians.

AngryManatee
They're just curious like any other individual and some just wonder what gay s3x on meth feels like.

inimalist
every other individual wonders what gay sex on meth feels like?

AngryManatee
Originally posted by inimalist
every other individual wonders what gay sex on meth feels like?

No that's why I said that "some" wonder confused

inimalist
Originally posted by AngryManatee
No that's why I said that "some" wonder confused

argh!!!!

some day I will learn how to read properly.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by ushomefree
C'mon... let's be fair. The disciples feared the Romans, and they fled for their lives. They never renounced the teaches of Jesus and re-subscribed to Jewish teachings/laws. In fact, they later rejoined and lead the Christian movement while experiencing persecution and death.

Peter turned away from jesus, swore, and said that he never knew the man. (jesus's "rock"wink

David sent a man to die in battle so that he could lay his wife. (god called him a man after his own heart)

Solomon Worshiped false idols.

And do you think its hard for us, here? what about we who are mentally persecuted our entire lives for being christians, us who are called stupid and who the media portrays as evil. We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs. We, in a society surrounded by, based on, and saturated by sex. Do you think it's hard for any christian not to misstep? We are humans, not god. It doesn't make it excusable, but we aren't excommunicated for a sin.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by AngryManatee
They're just curious like any other individual and some just wonder what gay s3x on meth feels like. QFT








wait, wut? laughing

inimalist
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs.

push so hard, eh?

I think you underestimate scientists....

wink

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
who the media portrays as evil.

More than they do atheists?

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs

Scientists aren't looking for proof against your beliefs.

Bardock42
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~


And do you think its hard for us, here? what about we who are mentally persecuted our entire lives for being christians, us who are called stupid and who the media portrays as evil. We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs. We, in a society surrounded by, based on, and saturated by sex. Do you think it's hard for any christian not to misstep? We are humans, not god. It doesn't make it excusable, but we aren't excommunicated for a sin.

Holy crazy...

ushomefree
For a time, the disciples were ex-Christian because they fled in fear of Roman persecution?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ushomefree
For a time, the disciples were ex-Christian because they fled in fear of Roman persecution?

No, they were never Christian at all because they denied Christ.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
For a time, the disciples were ex-Christian because they fled in fear of Roman persecution?

So, we agree that ex-Christians do exist.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, we agree that ex-Christians do exist. I think he was asking a question, not making a statement. Though it seems to be impossible that he was agreeing with you in that post.

Ordo
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs.

Scienists don't care about yout beliefs.

"mental persecution" LMAO

Ms.Marvel
sure they care.

Ordo
Tust me, I was much more engrossed in translational regulation of mammalian iron metabolism than "god."

Thinking all of society is out to get you is a form of paranoia. Just because someone uses facts to question your beliefs...gah...you can't research god. Everything about god is entirely outside of the realm of science. Its like blaming the water for sinking your boat.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
sure they care.

Only historians, sociologists and *a half dozen different mind/brain fields* are even remotely interested in religion as part of their field.

inimalist
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only historians, sociologists and *a half dozen different mind/brain fields* are even remotely interested in religion as part of their field.

and in those instances, it is about the behaviour of religious people or institutions, not about the validity of the beliefs.

I can't think of an actual field of science which actively looks for evidence that is contrary to religious views.

King Kandy
Originally posted by inimalist
and in those instances, it is about the behaviour of religious people or institutions, not about the validity of the beliefs.

I can't think of an actual field of science which actively looks for evidence that is contrary to religious views.
It's called "strawmanology"

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Peter turned away from jesus, swore, and said that he never knew the man. (jesus's "rock"wink

David sent a man to die in battle so that he could lay his wife. (god called him a man after his own heart)

Solomon Worshiped false idols.

And do you think its hard for us, here? what about we who are mentally persecuted our entire lives for being christians, us who are called stupid and who the media portrays as evil. We, who the scientists push so hard to find proof against our beliefs. We, in a society surrounded by, based on, and saturated by sex. Do you think it's hard for any christian not to misstep? We are humans, not god. It doesn't make it excusable, but we aren't excommunicated for a sin.

about this post.

Don't judge me. In order to persuade crazy you have to talk crazy.

inimalist
touche...

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Ordo
Tust me, I was much more engrossed in translational regulation of mammalian iron metabolism than "god."

Thinking all of society is out to get you is a form of paranoia. Just because someone uses facts to question your beliefs...gah...you can't research god. Everything about god is entirely outside of the realm of science. Its like blaming the water for sinking your boat.

i was referring more to the fact that you used a blanket statement. you then used yourself as an example as if you represent everyone. i know that wasnt your intention but still. stick out tongue

im sure there are scientists out there who go out of their way to somehow disprove the existence of god... not everyone thinks as rationally as you do. stick out tongue

id say its just as incorrect to say no one is out to get you as it is to say everyone is.

inimalist
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
im sure there are scientists out there who go out of their way to somehow disprove the existence of god... not everyone thinks as rationally as you do. stick out tongue

in the philosophy of science and how research programmes are constructed, proof of negatives, ie: unicorns don't exist, man X isn't tall, etc., are not allowed for reasons like, you might have missed a unicorn. Scientists, when doing science, by definition, cannot be finding evidence against the existence of God. The best that can be said is that their findings are not congruent with empirical statements found in religious literature, such as the age of the earth.

Scientists have gone out of their way to test things like the Mormon claims of genealogy, which is closer to what we are talking about, but iirc, it was done with the mormon church's consent (maybe even at BYU...) and not with the specific intent of "debunking" the religious claim.

From the scientists I know, and this is those mainly in behavioural science where religion is relevant to some programmes, they are not religious themselves, but seem to spend no time at all on the question. I'd think you would have a better argument if you were saying Liberal arts and philosophy professors go out of their way to disprove religion, scientists have more pressing concerns.

ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it! You doom yourself so drastically with statements like these.

See why it's hard to remain a christian with all these idiots out here that you get grouped together with??

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ushomefree
Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

And to understand cause and effect at anything beyond the most basic level you usually need massively complex mathematics, a lifetime of experience or both.

inimalist
Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

where did I say science is complex?

I think science is very simple. We have discovered many things, including how to do proper research and what types of questions are answerable through the scientific method, but at its core, science is not complex at all.

and technically, they predict causality to test models built through the analysis of many studies pertaining to the phenomena in question. What happens is only part of it, they have to build a narrative based on the best data about why it is happening as well. Science is not simply the reporting of statistics

ushomefree
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

Now who is being insulting? roll eyes (sarcastic)

inimalist
Originally posted by ushomefree
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

and such is what I get for taking the time to participate in a thread and answer the points/questions you raise seriously...

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
See why it's hard to remain a christian with all these idiots out here that you get grouped together with??

I mean, on this forum there's JIA and now this BOZO.

King Kandy
Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!
Maybe if I, haha, pretend to laugh in every post, heh, it will make people like me more. Haha!

~:Mr.Anderson:~
rofl (sincere lol)

Tattoos N Scars
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You probably wouldn't have classified him as a real Christian to begin with. In fact there's no way you could have.



You've already said that not only is such a person not saved, they were never even Christian to begin with.


I have to interject here. Backsliding Christians are still saved. That is a gift that you can not lose. Too much evidence in Scripture support that doctrine. Besides, after the Crucifixtion, Peter and the other disciples went fishing(literaly) instead of carrying on with the Great Commission given them. They backslid until Christ appeared to them and reminded them of what they were called to do. Did Peter and the others lose their salvation? No. Scripture does not indicate anything like that.

I will say that some people do profess Christ, and never live the way they should..even from the moment of conversion. Now, those people were NEVER converted, as you could see by their lack of "fruit". Christ says that you can know true believers by their "fruit", or "works". If someone says he/she was converted, and still lives the same as before he/she was converted, then that person made a false confession of faith..and were never saved to begin with. However, it is possible to show fruit..and then lose faith and give up. Scripture is full of instances like that.

Ordo
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
im sure there are scientists out there who go out of their way to somehow disprove the existence of god... not everyone thinks as rationally as you do. stick out tongue

id say its just as incorrect to say no one is out to get you as it is to say everyone is.

The point being, that if random practicioners of any given profession are not more or less actively trying to disprove the existnace of god, then saying "scientists are trying to disprove god" is as accurate as saying "garbage collectors are trying to disprove god."

ie. NEITHER statement is accurate.

Even if you accept by some delusion that MORE are, its clearly not a majority. The only way you can reach such a conclusion is by percieving the mere presence of deduced fact as an affront to god.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Science is not as complicated as you make it out to be, ha ha! Science, pertaining to any field, attempts to understand cause and effect. That is it!

Not really...

...especially since everyhting can be construed to have a cause and an effect.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
I have to interject here. Backsliding Christians are still saved. That is a gift that you can not lose. Too much evidence in Scripture support that doctrine. Besides, after the Crucifixtion, Peter and the other disciples went fishing(literaly) instead of carrying on with the Great Commission given them. They backslid until Christ appeared to them and reminded them of what they were called to do. Did Peter and the others lose their salvation? No. Scripture does not indicate anything like that.

I was referring to ushome's claim that a person who becomes Christian and then loses faith was never a Christian at all.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
I will say that some people do profess Christ, and never live the way they should..even from the moment of conversion. Now, those people were NEVER converted, as you could see by their lack of "fruit". Christ says that you can know true believers by their "fruit", or "works". If someone says he/she was converted, and still lives the same as before he/she was converted, then that person made a false confession of faith..and were never saved to begin with. However, it is possible to show fruit..and then lose faith and give up. Scripture is full of instances like that.

How would you define "fruit" and "works"?

But more importantly is a person who does, I assume, good deeds as an atheist or Jew or Hindu any less deserving of salvation? Good works strike me as more important than religion.

Tattoos N Scars
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I was referring to ushome's claim that a person who becomes Christian and then loses faith was never a Christian at all.



How would you define "fruit" and "works"?

But more importantly is a person who does, I assume, good deeds as an atheist or Jew or Hindu any less deserving of salvation? Good works strike me as more important than religion.


laughing


I wasn't directing my post at you. I just quoted your post to base my argument about what he said. I didn't feel like looking up the reference you were referring to.

Fruits are just the works that Christians perform. In essence, it refers to preaching the gospel, living a moral life, helping others. In New Testament times, it also referred to performing miracles, casting out devils, speaking in tongues, etc.. However, those things are not done today. I'll explain more about that if you want me to, but I'm not gonna go into detail about that. So, Fruits are just signs that someone is a "true" Christian. They follow Christ by doing His will.

As far as your other question, "works" have nothing to do with salvation. It doesn't matter if you're an atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, or even Christian...you can't earn salvation based on works.
The Bible says that salvation is a GIFT of God, not of WORKS, lest any man should boast. Confessing Christ as your Saviour is the ONLY way to salvation according to the Bible. A man can devote his life to nothing but good deeds, but that is not enough to earn salvation. Like I said, you can't EARN salvation. Salvation is freely given(GIFT) to all that believe and accept Christ as his/her Saviour.

Now, works are important. Christ does ask us to follow His commandments, attend Church, and live moral lives. Not living a Christ-like life is SIN to a Christian, and it is viewed negatively by Christ. However, it has no bearing on salvation....only in the REWARDS a believer receives on the day of judgment. According to the Bible, the believer has to stand in judgment, just as the non-believer. A Christian will be judged not on Salvation, since Christ already paid the debt of SIN for him/her, rather a Christian's judgment is based on the works he/she commited themselves to do as a Christian. The Bible says faithful believers will receive crowns to cast at the feet of Christ on the day of judgment...lazy Christians will receive no crowns and will be greatly embarrassed on that day of judgment. Scripture also hints that faithful believers will be given important responsiblilites in the heavenly kingdom. A lazy Christian will not be appointed to those responsibilities, although he does get to enjoy Heaven. In essence, works are important to a Christian not only because it is what he/she COMMITTED to do when he/she recieved salvation, but it is also important in Heaven when Christ designates responsibilites to His believers.

Mandrag Ganon
Originally posted by One Free Man
You doom yourself so drastically with statements like these.

See why it's hard to remain a christian with all these idiots out here that you get grouped together with??

QFT

Darth Jello
Because any time you abide by a lifestyle that denies your core nature you're going to slip up, be it being insanely religious and strict or pretending your straight or writing with your off hand.

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