Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I was discussing in another forum the idea of one's perception relative to gravity. It is know that a person standing on the South Pole would not feel "upside down" due to gravity and perception. The Earth is too large to be viewed as a sphere...and gravity gives us a natural sense of up and down...with down always being towards the ground.


The debate is how tall must a person be to realize that he/she IS upside down. If a person was so tall that his head reached the upper stratosphere, would he have a sense of being "upside down" if standing at the south pole. If not, let's say that his height reached into the mesosphere, thermosphere, or exosphere...he could see the curvature of the Earth at any of those levels. Would he begin feeling that he is "upside down"? If not, what if his height grew to where his feet covered the entire soutern hemisphere...and his head soured halfway to the moon? Place another man at the North Pole with an equivalent height...and they would see each other from space. One man would look upside down from the point of view of the other.

In essence, it was being argued that even at such vast heights, a person would still not have a sense of being "upside down". If that was the case, you'd have to argue the way astronauts in space see the Earth. If they could identify individual humans at that height, the majority of them would appear sideways, being closer to the Equator. If the astronauts could see scientists in Anarctica, they would appear upside down to an astronaut in space. With that said, I believe that it is obvious that height can counter gravity's perception...only if the height is at a magnitude where you can see the curvature of the Earth.

What direction is "down"?

It's a meaningless term in the context of this discussion.

indeed

there is no up or down in space, no "top" to the universe

Originally posted by King Kandy
What direction is "down"?

It's a meaningless term in the context of this discussion.


I agree. Well, we consider down as being towards the central point of gravity. So, down would be the ground...and up would be the sky. It's not the same as direction, meaning North and South.

"Upside down", in the context of this discussion, refers to a person's position at the South Pole...when that person is so tall that his head reaches into the exposphere. At that height, even if your feet are still bound by gravity to the Earth, you would have a different perception of "up" and "down". At that height, you would feel "upside down" in relation to a man of similar height standing on the North Pole....as you could see the other man standing on that side of Earth from space.

For instance, stick a G.I. Joe action figure on the bottom of a baseball(feet first as if he was standing). If the baseball was the Earth, and the G.I. Joe figure was the actual size of a man, then he would have a different perception of "up" and "down" as opposed to a normal person standing at the South Pole. A normal person is bound by gravity...but, also by his own perception of what he thinks is "up" or "down".

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed

there is no up or down in space, no "top" to the universe


Agreed. Up and down are relative terms. However, they are relative to the person experiencing them. A man of great height would view "up" and "down" differently than a man of normal height.

the whole thing is, even conceptualizing the world as having the northern pole as up and the southern one as down is a product of the maps you have used as a person in the northern hemisphere.

People in Australia have maps we would consider "upside down", but makes sense if you are Australian. See: http://www.sandeonline.co.uk/Upside%20Down%20World.gif

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Agreed. Up and down are relative terms. However, they are relative to the person experiencing them. A man of great height would view "up" and "down" differently than a man of normal height.

why is that?

down would still be relative to where their feet were planted, and given the earth is a sphere, it would have the same shape when looked down upon from all angles, and the universe has no distinguishing features of up or down.

The only cue of "up" or "down" you would have would be gravity. unless you were so tall that the gravity of another planet was effecting your head, down would be down.

Originally posted by inimalist
the whole thing is, even conceptualizing the world as having the northern pole as up and the southern one as down is a product of the maps you have used as a person in the northern hemisphere.

People in Australia have maps we would consider "upside down", but makes sense if you are Australian. See: http://www.sandeonline.co.uk/Upside%20Down%20World.gif


Yes, I agree. I've seen those maps. However, if you looked at Earth from a space station orbiting Earth, then you could visualize the Earth as a sphere. Suppose while on the space station, you had Superman's enhanced vision. With that vision, you could see people all over the globe...and from that vantage point, some would appear sideways, some upside down, etc....due to the Earth being a sphere.

If a man was so tall that he had the same vantage point of the Earth as astronauts do in the space station, then he would make the same judgment in perception.

A normal man can't make that perception. A man assumes the ground he is walking on to be "down"...since that is the direction gravity acts upon, regardless of where he stands on Earth.

A man of great height, many miles tall would not have the same perception because his eyes and senses will tell his brain something else. Even though he is still bound to Earth by gravity(in this scenario), he is so tall that his senses would tell him something else. Do you follow me? I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across..lol.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
I agree. Well, we consider down as being towards the central point of gravity. So, down would be the ground...and up would be the sky. It's not the same as direction, meaning North and South.

"Upside down", in the context of this discussion, refers to a person's position at the South Pole...when that person is so tall that his head reaches into the exposphere. At that height, even if your feet are still bound by gravity to the Earth, you would have a different perception of "up" and "down". At that height, you would feel "upside down" in relation to a man of similar height standing on the North Pole....as you could see the other man standing on that side of Earth from space.

For instance, stick a G.I. Joe action figure on the bottom of a baseball(feet first as if he was standing). If the baseball was the Earth, and the G.I. Joe figure was the actual size of a man, then he would have a different perception of "up" and "down" as opposed to a normal person standing at the South Pole. A normal person is bound by gravity...but, also by his own perception of what he thinks is "up" or "down".
Both men would think they were rightside up. Neither would consider themselves upside down.

That's sort of what I'm referring to.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Both men would think they were rightside up. Neither would consider themselves upside down.



I agree with that. However, the guy on the opposite pole would look upside down to the other guy.


I suppose that if you were so big that you had a center of gravity larger than the Earth's, then you would appear upside down if you attempted to stand on what you perceived was the bottom of Earth's sphere.

In any event, it's hard to imagine NOT viewing yourself upside down if you were that big and looking down at the planet. However, that's because my senses are spoiled by my normal size and the law of gravity.

You've got your ideas of perception and how gravity affects it completely wrong.

No matter how tall you are, you would never think of yourself as upside down, simply because you never are. Down is where gravity is pulling you. Your sense of balance depends on this. This would never change with your height, even if you reached into space, so your basic premise is an irrelevance. Starting this discussion by basing it on height is very weird indeed. If you had such a vantage point and superhuman eyesight, you would perceive other people as being at odd angles, sure. But that's not very interesting- someone climbing a steep hill a mile away can easily be at an odd angle to me. Obviously, you wouldn't perceive anyone as being upside down as the Earth would be in the way of seeing people that far- which is something pretty obvious you seemed to ignore- but even if you could, you would still never ever think of yourself as upside down, and quite why you nominate the South Pole man as the one who would think that is beyond me.

So you saying "it is hard to imagine not viewing yourself upside down" really only makes people wonder what the heck is wrong with your imagination. It's out and out silly to consider that is how you would view yourself. If you are something of comparable nature to the Earth in order to have your own similar gravity, then why the heck would you be thinking ANY part of the Earth is its bottom at all? You'd just consider yourself next to it. Talking about 'upside-down' in such a scenario is meaningless.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You've got your ideas of perception and how gravity affects it completely wrong.

No matter how tall you are, you would never think of yourself as upside down, simply because you never are. Down is where gravity is pulling you. Your sense of balance depends on this. This would never change with your height, even if you reached into space, so your basic premise is an irrelevance. Starting this discussion by basing it on height is very weird indeed. If you had such a vantage point and superhuman eyesight, you would perceive other people as being at odd angles, sure. Obviously, you wouldn't perceive anyone as being upside down as the Earth would be in the way of seeing people that far.

So you saying "it is hard to imagine not viewing yourself upside down" really only makes people wonder what the heck is wrong with your imagination. It's out and out silly to consider that is how you would view yourself. If you are something of comparable nature to the Earth in order to have your own similar gravity, then why the heck would you be thinking ANY part of the Earth is its bottom at all? You'd just consider yourself next to it. Talking about 'upside-down' in such a scenario is meaningless.


Well, like I said in the first post, I was discussing the argument on another fourm. I did not create that discussion. I only brought someone else's viewpoints over from the other forum. So, the height and gravity argument didn't originate with me.

Furthermore, with the heights I'm referring to, both men at opposite poles could see each other if they leaned over, as they'd be able to pretty much shake hands because the curvature of the Earth would be a non-factor with their heights.

At such a height, their mass would be greater than the Earth's and would not be bound by its gravity. I was just pointing out that if they were still bound by Earth's gravity, and can plant their feet(or foot) on opposite poles, they can see each other...and the other man would "appear" to be upside down.

I agree if you were tall enough to do that, then you would appear to be standing next to the Earth and not on it...realistically. I'm only talking "theoretically"...as in only the instance of this case(scenario).

Also, my imagination is just fine. If it was possible to be that height, and you are standing on the North Pole...you would view yourself as upside down IF you imagined yourself standing on the opposite pole...since the south pole would be directly beneath your feet on the other side of the planet. If you couldn't imagine that, then something would be wrong with you.

That last point makes absolutely no sense at all. Your height is a total irrelevance to how you would think yourself as being if you simply imagine yourself being at the opposite end of the world. And the answer in any case is still no- you would think of yourself as being the right way up. Again, you have some faults with your imagination there.

Meanwhile, if you were tall enough to wrap yourself around the world, then you don't have a proper feeling of up and down any more anyway (or at most, it is distributed weirdly along your body), so the whole up/down thing becomes irrelevant again, because any normal talk of gravity depends on you being in the same geographical place on Earth that your feet are. if you've changed that, you've ruined the whole scenario.. Your argument about up/down depends on you being, effectively, on one spot (like just about everyone is at any given moment), and from that perspective you cannot perceive the other side of the world regardless of height.

So, in short... no, the other man would not appear as being upside down. You still have it all wrong. It is impossible to perceive him in that way. Either you cannot see him, or you have moved your eyes to a point where he does not look upside down to you, even assuming you still have a fixed concept of your own 'down'.

The biggest problem here is that you are using an absurd example for a simple thing. A much simpler example is to fly a spaceship towarda a planet, but orientate it so that the planet is at the top of your view out the cockpit, not the bottom. From that perspective, with sufficient zoom, people on the closest edge of the planet would look upside down to you. As you closed on the planet though, you would start to feel the pull of gravity towards the top of your craft, and soon you would feel upside down yourself.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That last point makes absolutely no sense at all. Your height is a total irrelevance to how you would think yourself as being if you simply imagine yourself being at the opposite end of the world. And the answer in any case is still no- you would think of yourself as being the right way up. Again, you have some faults with your imagination there.

Meanwhile, if you were tall enough to wrap yourself around the world, then you don't have a proper feeling of up and down any more anyway (or at most, it is distributed weirdly along your body), so the whole up/down thing becomes irrelevant again, because any normal talk of gravity depends on you being in the same geographical place on Earth that your feet are. if you've changed that, you've ruined the whole scenario.. Your argument about up/down depends on you being, effectively, on one spot (like just about everyone is at any given moment), and from that perspective you cannot perceive the other side of the world regardless of height.

So, in short... no, the other man would not appear as being upside down. You still have it all wrong. It is impossible to perceive him in that way. Either you cannot see him, or you have moved your eyes to a point where he does not look upside down to you, even assuming you still have a fixed concept of your own 'down'.

The biggest problem here is that you are using an absurd example for a simple thing. A much simpler example is to fly a spaceship towarda a planet, but orientate it so that the planet is at the top of your view out the cockpit, not the bottom. From that perspective, with sufficient zoom, people on the closest edge of the planet would look upside down to you. As you closed on the planet though, you would start to feel the pull of gravity towards the top of your craft, and soon you would feel upside down yourself.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. I guess I didn't explain it in the best terms.

The closest I've come to experiencing something like an "unusual" perceptual-gravity relationship is on those clear nights when I can see a few planets (eg, Venus, Mars). These moments - when I try to visualize their orbits and relation to the Sun - is when I start to get a sense of being on big sphere, and that I am, in fact, "standing sideways" on the Earth's surface (relative to the plane of the ecliptic).

Wow...Just, wow...Even on these boards, it's rare to encounter such manure as this thread.

This is the kind of utter garbage that makes me avoid the philosophy forums like the plague.

Kudos to you for it.

this reminds me a bit of little kids saying that they're going to dig a hole to china because it's opposite us through the earth.

also, a person standing on any part of the world would think they're "up" - the rule of gravity applies through the universe. if the world in orbit has has america 'above' china through the earth's crust an core, then someone without a mature mind would think that all chinese walk upside down, in relativity to someone walking in america.

however, the gravity for earth lies neither at the south pole or the north pole or the tri-state area or the place where india meets the ocean. gravity's source is in-ward. therefore everyone on earth is "right-side up."

people in space are also ruled by inward gravity - this is what they plan their flight around. as long as anyone, anywhere, has the sensation that their feet are on the ground and their heads aren't turning bright red, they're "right-side up." i can't even think of a situation outside of sci-fi fiction where the rule of gravity does not apply.

Originally posted by Mindship
The closest I've come to experiencing something like an "unusual" perceptual-gravity relationship is on those clear nights when I can see a few planets (eg, Venus, Mars). These moments - when I try to visualize their orbits and relation to the Sun - is when I start to get a sense of being on big sphere, and that I am, in fact, "standing sideways" on the Earth's surface (relative to the plane of the ecliptic).

lol, I had an experience once where I would lie down and close my eyes, and it would feel like gravity was holding me up on the ceiling.

coincidentally, I also felt as though my body had become an amorphous liquid...

joking aside, I hear what you are saying. I love the sense of awe it inspires to think of yourself really on this giant ball in the cosmos, hurtling through space.

WTF?

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed

there is no up or down in space, no "top" to the universe

I could have sworn magnets "self-right." I can't remember why. It might be because of the sun. (Edit, I mean North goes "up" and south goes "down".



I'll googled it and I couldn't find anything. I may be wrong.