Hollow Ichigo vs Zaraki Kenpachi

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EvilAngel
As it sounds. The battle takes place in soul society.

By Hollow Ichigo i mean purely the form that fought Byakuya, Darku, the Vizards and Zangetsu. Not the form that appears to fight Ulquiorra. And yes i am aware 2/4 of the explains were strictly speaking none canon, but in this thread you can use those feats to help judge if it helps you reach the verdict you think is correct. Same goes for Kenpachi. You can use any feats or showings in fillers.

Ms.Marvel
didnt regular ichigo beat kenpachi when they both went all out?

KingD19
Yeah, Ichigo beat Zaraki while his mask was still only popping up to block fatal injuries. His 1st Hollow form made Love have to put on his mask, he takes Zaraki out.

Demonic Phoenix
^ Was a draw. Ichigo actually fainted first iirc.

KingD19
I remember now, it was a draw, but Hollow Ichigo is leaps and bounds beyond regular Ichigo, he wins this without a doubt.

EvilAngel
Don't be so certain. I personally think that Ichigo beating Kenpachi was more PIS than anything else. For example, Kenpachi states that Ichigo was overpowering him, which imo makes no sense that Ichigo is stronger(literally stronger) than Kenny.

Take a look at Nnoitra's fight with both of them. Yes Ichigo was tired but he still would not have won. Also in that fight Kenpachi sustained a hell of allot more injuries than Ichigo put on him. And finally, do you really think Ichigo could defeat Bankai Tousen then take on foxman? Because i don't

Demonic Phoenix
Meh, I'd give it either way, with HI having a slight lead. Both are berserkers, but imo, Kenpachi could be the better tank.

HI has that unorthodox style based on powering through (a double-edged sword), and he has the kick-ass version of Kuroi Getsuga Tenshou.

Kenpachi can use those kendo-like strikes with devastating results if he manages to strike HI (given that he's a berserker, he'll likely decide to tank through rather than avoid). Cutting through Nnoitra like that is no small feat.

Either way imo.

If Kenpachi were up against that pure hollow form of Ichigo (Vizard training), I doubt that form would have access to the Bankai. Love only put on the mask as he'd have to take the brunt of the cero.
I don't remember the size of the Kido-enclosed arena, but I don't think it was fairly big. Kenpachi would have ample time to dodge a cero.

EvilAngel
Assuming he'd have to. I have to admit one of my all time favourite bleach moments is when Kenpachi caught the Cero and just cast it away.

Maybe Hollow Ichigo's is too strong but it's a fun thought ^^

KingD19
Considering Ichigo's rapid healing, I say he can tank more damage than Kenpachi.

And his winning wasn't PIS, it's the fact that he gets like 10 times stronger after every fight.

Ichigo has immense physical strength, he proves it all the time.

A full strength Ichigo could have won that fight with Nnoitra. I don't think Kenpachi would have done any better if he'd just got done fighting an Espada only one level lower than Nnoitra. Besides, he wasn't just tired, he was incredibly injured.

I actually think Ichigo could have defeated Tosen without getting stabbed in the gut, and after the fight he could have kept going.

Demonic Phoenix
Ichigo has rapid healing confused? HI hasn't demonstrated regeneration anywhere outside that brief fight against the Vizard.

Getting 10x stronger after every fight is PIS no expression. Ichigo did get stronger during the fight via a plot device, so it could be viewed as PIS. Besides, Ichigo didn't win >__>.

Not as much as Kenpachi though. That is fairly obvious. As far as brute strength is concerned, Ichigo pales in comparison to Kenpachi. He only reaches Kenpachi's level with his bankai.

Thing is, for someone like Ichigo, his bankai wouldn't help much against someone like Tosen. Tosen's bankai is l33t powerful all things considered, it's only because Kenpachi was wise enough to take damage to cause severe damage that Tosen lost the fight.

Ichigo could have arrived at the same idea, but the damage would be more detrimental to him than it was to Kenpachi.

~ All this is without considering the fact that Ichigo could try to override HI's influence over his body, which would leave HI wide open. However, I don't think that Ichigo's influence plays any part in this thread.

KingD19
That proves he has rapid healing, the Vizard even said it while he was fighting. He has demonstrated it in both Hollow forms, to say he doesn't is just wishful thinking. He even showed it in the recent Muramasa/Zanpakuto arc, when he turned Hollow and healed while he was fighting Muramasa and Zangetsu.

Also, what other times has Hollow Ichigo been shown, besides his fight with the Vizard, and the Muramasa fight?

Demonic Phoenix
While he was in Ichigo's bankai form, he didn't show any regeneration, though I might be wrong. I haven't seen the Muramasa fight. If we go by canon (not applicable here as the TC says that non-canon feats are allowed), he's only demonstrated it while in full hollow form, and not the bankai ichigo form.

Against Byakuya, and perhaps Jin. & the time inside Ichigo. That fight was sweet.

KingD19
You obviously misunderstood me, Hollow Ichigo has rapid healing, and that's whose fighting Kenpachi. So yeah, he can heal for this fight.

Demonic Phoenix
We don't know which form of HI is fighting. He's demonstrated two forms (bankai, & pure hollow). His bankai form didn't demonstrate healing outside (apparently) the Muramasa fight.

KingD19
By Hollow Ichigo i mean purely the form that fought Byakuya, Darku, the Vizards and Zangetsu.

That is the Hollow that showed rapid healing against Muramasa, he couldn't even go Bankai in the Muramasa fight, Zangetsu was still fighting against him. So he used his Hollow energy to even things out.

Ichigo has shown his salamander/lizard hollow form(1st transformation with the vizard)

A hollowfication and vizard mask he usually uses when he goes Bankai.

And the new Hollow form he used to beat Ulquiorra.

What are you talking about?

Demonic Phoenix
That form against Byakuya/Muramasa/Kariya, and the salamander form no expression.

In canon, the first form hasn't demonstrated regeneration, but that point is moot in this thread.

Vizard is tied to Ichigo, not hollow ichigo no expression. HI has never been referred to as a vizard, only Ichigo has.

KingD19
He only has 2 hollow forms, the one with the tail(Salamander where he fought the Vizard, Muramasa, etc..), and the one with the horns.(When he killed Ulquiorra)

And it has demonstrated RH, it was shown in the manga, the exact same scene from the anime.

Vizard=Shinigami who has undergone the Hollowfication process. And if they can't fully control it, it can force them to change to full Hollow, like Ichigo sometimes does. And while Hollow Ichigo isn't considered a vizard, since he's fully hollow, he couldn't become a hollow if he wasn't a vizard.

Healing applies to all Vizard if they go full Hollow, like Kensei, and the chick who dresses like a power ranger, his lieutenant.

Demonic Phoenix
The salamander form never fought against Byakuya no expression. It was basically HI in control of Ichigo. That form never demonstrated regeneration afaik. That form could be considered an arrancar I guess.

The form against Uluqiorra is not applicable here. The other form has demonstrated regeneration, I'm not arguing against that.

Vizards are also shinigami who have access to hollow powers. If they become full hollows, the shinigami aspect is not in control, thus they aren't vizards by definition. HI will never be a vizard, not by definition anyway.

KingD19
Okay, for clarification, I'm pretty sure this is the Hollow Ichigo she's talking about, if it is, the Rapid Healing is applied, and he would more than likely take a strong majority, since he made a Captain Level Vizard put on his mask just to keep from getting hurt.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/bleach/en/images/7/73/Bleach-IchigosInnerHollow-CeroBlast.gif

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/bleach/en/images/d/de/2416930685_f8c596e872.jpg

Demonic Phoenix
Thing is, she said the hollow form that fights against Byakuya, Darku, Vizards, and Zangetsu. If she said forms, or left out Byakuya, then sure, it would be the Salamander form.

laughing out loud we've been arguing over a misunderstanding.

Kenpachi could avoid the cero. Love made no such attempt. HI would take a slight majority, but it wouldn't be a curbstomp imo.

KingD19
Well that's the form that fought against Zangetsu and the Vizard, I don't remember which one went against Byakuya and Darku. Is she talking about Vizard Ichigo in those instances, where he's Bankai but has his Hollow mask on?

I remember the fight now, Love commented on how difficult the fight would be, and before Ichigo got the Cero off, he regained control and exploded, which broke his Hollow shell, and he came out with the Hollow Mask on.

EvilAngel
I see, Sorry about the confusion. I can't Edit the opening post so i'll just write it here.


I'm going to say. There will be 2 rounds.

Round 1 is the Hollow that only uses the half mask. So the one that fought Byakuya and Darku.

Round 2 will be the fully turned hollow that fought the vizards and Zangetsu.

And of course both will be completely restored inbetween each round.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ Was a draw. Ichigo actually fainted first iirc.

It was not a draw. Both Ichigo and Kenpachi said Ichigo won

Here's why Ichigo won:

They both passed out around the same time, with Kenpachi standing just a tad longer to mutter to Ichigo that Ichigo won.


Why would both say Ichigo won? Simple: Ichigo won because Kenpachi's sword was cut in two, signifying that Ichigo had sharpened his reiryoku further than Kenpachi did. This signified Ichigo's will to win was stronger than Kenpachi's, which was a subject they were discussing earlier in their fight. IF neither of their swords broke, I would say Kenpachi won. Since these are Shinigami and their swords are an extension of their souls and they are very symbolic to the Shinigami, Ichigo definitely won. He not only won to both the characters Ichigo and Kenpachi, the creater himself says Ichigo won...and this was before Ichigo amped himself up.



Now, the stupid PIS in this manga has made it to where Kenpachi can stand on equal ground with the #5 espada, which shouldn't have been the case.

Oh well. PIS be damned.




So, Hollow Ichigo should win if you ignore PIS.

KingD19
Well Kenpachi only won against Nnoitra is because he used Kendo to make full use of his strength, which allowed him to cut Nnoitra's hierro, and exhaust his healing.

I say Ichigo wins both scenarios a solid majority.

dadudemon
Originally posted by KingD19
Well Kenpachi only won against Nnoitra is because he used Kendo to make full use of his strength, which allowed him to cut Nnoitra's hierro, and exhaust his healing.

I say Ichigo wins both scenarios a solid majority.

Kenpachi shouldn't have been able to keep up with #5 at all. Ichigo didn't know flash step until his Bankai training. He fought Kenpachi before his Bankai training. It's completely possible that Kenpachi refused to use his Flash Step to keep the match interesting....but that still doesn't account for a Bankai Ichigo, who is faster in his Bankai form than Byukuga (and Byukuga is one of the fastest Bleach characters), getting his butt handed to him by #5. However, it's entirely possible that Ichigo was so beat up and so exhausted from his fight with Grimmjow that he could not move nearly fast enough.


So, if we assume Kenpachi didn't use flash step and Ichigo couldn't move even fast enough to account for #5's sonido, then we can say that Kenpachi winning was PIS.


I wish it were as simple as Ichigo just being retardedly beaten up and exhausted. But didn't he get a tad bit of healing before he stood up against #5?

KingD19
Orihime healed him for less than 5 minutes. The guy took a couple full force ceros, including a gran rey, he also took like 8 of those darts in the chest, and those are the same darts that decimated that building. He also got his ass whooped and sliced the whole fight. I don't think he was nearly healed enough for that to be considered a fair fight.

And every Captain must know the basics, Flash Steps included.

After he was fully healed, he was dancing around with Ulquiorra.

dadudemon
Originally posted by KingD19
Orihime healed him for less than 5 minutes. The guy took a couple full force ceros, including a gran rey, he also took like 8 of those darts in the chest, and those are the same darts that decimated that building. He also got his ass whooped and sliced the whole fight. I don't think he was nearly healed enough for that to be considered a fair fight.

And every Captain must know the basics, Flash Steps included.

After he was fully healed, he was dancing around with Ulquiorra.


Okay. Fair enough. That makes me a feel a tad better about Kenpachi winning the fight against #5.



However, WHY would Kenpachi beat a #5 when Ichigo had a VERY hard time beating a #6? This doesn't account for Ichigo beating Kenpachi BEFORE Ichigo even went through his Bankai training. This is still PIS that needs to be resolved. Kenpachi shouldn't have stood a chance.

KingD19
Well, the only thing I can say is that as soon as Aizen left, everyone stepped their game up. Before that, the captains were already at the top, why should they do everything in their power to stay there? But when the Espada came along, they had to get serious, more intense training, etc...

dadudemon
Originally posted by KingD19
Well, the only thing I can say is that as soon as Aizen left, everyone stepped their game up. Before that, the captains were already at the top, why should they do everything in their power to stay there? But when the Espada came along, they had to get serious, more intense training, etc...

Getting that much power in that amount of time has ONLY been done by Ichigo and Ichigo alone. It was said that it takes decades to master Bankai...and that is indeed how long it took Renji.

Ichigo is the ONLY person in all of bleach, other than Urahara, that can make such huge leaps of progress. Not even Byukuga can make that type of progress. Remember when Byukuga said that very few people ever achieve Bankai and that of those people, it takes years to develop?

On top of that, it took Renji and Rukia decades to become as strong as they did. We got to see flash backs of them training.

KingD19
Hey, that's the only thing I could think of. And it took Renji decades to get his Shikai, he got his Bankai using the same 3 Day Method Ichigo used.

And I wouldn't so much call it as getting stronger, as I would call it, getting back in your prime.

dadudemon
Originally posted by KingD19
Hey, that's the only thing I could think of. And it took Renji decades to get his Shikai, he got his Bankai using the same 3 Day Method Ichigo used.

No, Renji slowly cultivated his Bankai in that secret place so Byakuga wouldn't know about it as that training room hid reiryoku.

Originally posted by KingD19
And I wouldn't so much call it as getting stronger, as I would call it, getting back in your prime.

Oh.


Hmmm.

I have no canon rebuttal to this. So, that may be adequate enough.

Wait. No. 11th division squad is all about fighting and taking positions. Your point would work for any captain but the 11th division squad.

EvilAngel
But wait doesn't Zaraki say while fighting Nnoitra that this fight has taught him how to use his muscles again?

Or something like that. Infact i'm sure he does.

KingD19
Who in the 11th Division could put up any kind of challenge to Kenpachi??? Everyone either adores him, or is scared sh*tless by him, sometimes both.

Yeah, looked over it again. He was already close to getting his Bankai, he just trained underground to get there all the way.

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
But wait doesn't Zaraki say while fighting Nnoitra that this fight has taught him how to use his muscles again?

Or something like that. Infact i'm sure he does.


That would fall under taunting. If the captains trained at all for the Esapda, then we would know that they did. Since they didn't train for the Espada and it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the manga as well, we are 100% they didn't train and any reasons that can be thought up are simply reasons to justify Kenpachi's PIS defeat of #5.


Originally posted by KingD19
Who in the 11th Division could put up any kind of challenge to Kenpachi??? Everyone either adores him, or is scared sh*tless by him, sometimes both.


He is constantly getting into fights because he loves to do it.

I think in the anime, he bacame a captain just a few years before the series starts. That means he was very much training for and eventuall killed the 11th squad captain.

And, we really don't have any evidence that Shinigami "get out of shape" or anything. I don't even recall that being an issue in the anime, either. Look at urahara. Been living on Earth completely sedentary. Then, when crap hits the fan, he's just as strong as most Esapda...and that was from a short fight with barely any effort.

Originally posted by KingD19
Yeah, looked over it again. He was already close to getting his Bankai, he just trained underground to get there all the way.

Yeah. That's right.

lol. Just messin'.

EvilAngel
I must ask. Why is it that Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was PIS and not Ichigo beating Kenpachi?

The way i see it, it could be either way. I mean, Ignoring Ichigo struggled to beat Renji, then was suddenly better than Kenpachi, passing it off as PIS Ichigo power boost

But there is one little thing that bugs me, and makes me think more so than actually the PIS was Ichigo beating Kenpachi in the first place. Generally, the captains are equal. So why can Ichigo Bankai-less beat Kenpachi and not even by close to Byakuya?

That doesn't make too much sense from my perspective

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I must ask. Why is it that Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was PIS and not Ichigo beating Kenpachi?

Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish.

The way i see it, it could be either way. I mean, Ignoring Ichigo struggled to beat Renji, then was suddenly better than Kenpachi, passing it off as PIS Ichigo power boost

But there is one little thing that bugs me, and makes me think more so than actually the PIS was Ichigo beating Kenpachi in the first place. Generally, the captains are equal. So why can Ichigo Bankai-less beat Kenpachi and not even by close to Byakuya?

That doesn't make too much sense from my perspective

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish.

Mmm but the problem with this is that before this Ichigo beat Ikkaku. Who we are later told is stronger than Renji.

Meaning the first enemy Ichigo beat was the strongest below-captain person in Soul society.

PIS surely, right?

Especially if he then struggled with Renji.

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I must ask. Why is it that Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was PIS and not Ichigo beating Kenpachi?

Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish. That would put Renji at almost low level captaain, at the time.

Then, we have Ichigo who trains under Urahara for 10 days straight. Not only does he get his shinigami powers back, he learns a crapload from Urahara and becomes MUCH stronger than ever before. Definitely low level captain at this point...but not quite getting down physical sword fighting/martial art technique yet...as we see in his fight with Ikkaku.


Then, Ichigo fights Ikkaku who has learned his Bankai. That alone puts Ikkaku as a very strong opponent. Ichigo becomes stronger in his fights. So much so that in the time he fougth Ikkaku and the time he fights Kenpachi, Ikkaku remarks to Kenpachi that Ichigo has gotten much stronger since he fought him. Ikkaku is arguably stronger than Renji because Ikkaku is the one who took Renji under his wing and taught him how to do shikai and things like that. If anything, Ikkaku is low level captain. Ikkaku DOES have a bankai which is almost completely exclusive to the captains.


I see Ichigo being at marginally below average captain level when he fights Kenpachi. Since this was a pure power match and that's what Kenpachi excelled in, Ichigo, even being at captain level, was no match for Kenpachi. By the time Ichigo stops being a scardy cat, Ichigo is able to concentrate and use his bond with his Zanpkutou to become even stronger than Kenpachi. Both Kenpachi and Ichigo have UBER amounts of reiryoku, but Ichigo got the edge over Kenpachi by becoming one with his sword. (lol).

Everything lead up to Ichigo becoming progressively stronger. He barely beat Kenpachi with his life intact and it took everything he had and then stuff he learned during the fight to beat Kenpachi. Before tha fight, Ichigo didn't stand a chance against a fully released Kenpachi. This is what makes Ichigo so uber badass. He's like...worse than a Saiyan. lol

Originally posted by EvilAngel
The way i see it, it could be either way. I mean, Ignoring Ichigo struggled to beat Renji, then was suddenly better than Kenpachi, passing it off as PIS Ichigo power boost

The only difference is: Ichigo was shown from the beginning to make massive leaps in progress. He's the Naruto of Bleach. That's something that has been part of Ichigo's character since the beginning. Therefore, it isn't PIS for him to learn something about himself or his Powers and become stronger. Compared to everyone else in bleach, he has about a year of experience...? Whereas the Espada, Captains, and lieutenants all have a minimum of decades of experience and training.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
But there is one little thing that bugs me, and makes me think more so than actually the PIS was Ichigo beating Kenpachi in the first place. Generally, the captains are equal. So why can Ichigo Bankai-less beat Kenpachi and not even by close to Byakuya?

Simple. The captains, by far, are not equals. Byukuga would easily beat Kenpachi.

Yamamoto would easily beat all of the other captains cept MAYBE Aizen. He took on two of the strongest captains, alone.

If anything, Kenpachi is one of the weakest captains. Overall, that is actually true, if we take the official databook into consideration.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
That doesn't make too much sense from my perspective

Well, we know for a fact that the captains are not equal. Not even close to being equal. That's just from feats alone.

That point is further solidified by the official databook.

EvilAngel
Even so i don't think that's an entirely accurate portrayal.

First of all, when Ichigo got that massive power boost in his first encounter with Renji we don't know anything about that. But it seems highly unlikely that was a constant power. If you ask me, his insane speed, his lack of reaction to pain, and even the look in his eye. I would say that is when his hollow manifested it's powers.

Captain level to lietenant is a big difference. Very big, and i think Ichigo crossed the gap far too simply. And as i said i think his defeat of Kenpachi was PIS.

Kenpachi at the same level of strength took on and won again two captain at the same time. Then defeated Tousens bankai. And matched the Foxman until he ran away to help Yamamoto.


I also must admit i don't fully grasp how Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was pis.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by dadudemon
It was not a draw. Both Ichigo and Kenpachi said Ichigo won

Here's why Ichigo won:

They both passed out around the same time, with Kenpachi standing just a tad longer to mutter to Ichigo that Ichigo won.


Why would both say Ichigo won? Simple: Ichigo won because Kenpachi's sword was cut in two, signifying that Ichigo had sharpened his reiryoku further than Kenpachi did. This signified Ichigo's will to win was stronger than Kenpachi's, which was a subject they were discussing earlier in their fight. IF neither of their swords broke, I would say Kenpachi won. Since these are Shinigami and their swords are an extension of their souls and they are very symbolic to the Shinigami, Ichigo definitely won. He not only won to both the characters Ichigo and Kenpachi, the creater himself says Ichigo won...and this was before Ichigo amped himself up.

Hmm, from that point of view, I suppose you are right. Ichigo did win.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish. That would put Renji at almost low level captaain, at the time.



When they first met, Ichigo wasn't at the level of a top lieutenant. He got more powerful during the fight, and it was enough to beat a Renji at 1/5 his normal power. Lieutenants and Captains have their power lowered to a fifth of what it normally is when they enter the human dimension.

I don't recall anything being said about the limit not being placed, though I may be wrong.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Even so i don't think that's an entirely accurate portrayal.

First of all, when Ichigo got that massive power boost in his first encounter with Renji we don't know anything about that. But it seems highly unlikely that was a constant power. If you ask me, his insane speed, his lack of reaction to pain, and even the look in his eye. I would say that is when his hollow manifested it's powers.

Captain level to lietenant is a big difference. Very big, and i think Ichigo crossed the gap far too simply. And as i said i think his defeat of Kenpachi was PIS.

Kenpachi at the same level of strength took on and won again two captain at the same time. Then defeated Tousens bankai. And matched the Foxman until he ran away to help Yamamoto.


I also must admit i don't fully grasp how Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was pis.

Ichigo never had a hollow half when he first met Renji. It was probably his determination to win manifesting itself. That same determination & will manifests when he trains with Urahara. That is also part of his power.

If the amp Ichigo got when he fought against Kenpachi was permanent, then it means that he obviously would be more powerful while using Bankai. Curbstomping more powerful once he became proficient with his Vizard powers.

Seeing as a vizard Ichigo in control of his hollow powers just scraped through the fight against the 6th Espada, he considers it PIS as there was no way a weaker character would be able to defeat the 5th Espada, given that there was no way Kenpachi could have become that powerful in approximately three months.

Had he learned his zanpakutou's name and learned shikai, it might have been a different story.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Ichigo never had a hollow half when he first met Renji. It was probably his determination to win manifesting itself. That same determination & will manifests when he trains with Urahara. That is also part of his power.

If the amp Ichigo got when he fought against Kenpachi was permanent, then it means that he obviously would be more powerful while using Bankai. Curbstomping more powerful once he became proficient with his Vizard powers.

Seeing as a vizard Ichigo in control of his hollow powers just scraped through the fight against the 6th Espada, he considers it PIS as there was no way a weaker character would be able to defeat the 5th Espada, given that there was no way Kenpachi could have become that powerful in approximately three months.

Had he learned his zanpakutou's name and learned shikai, it might have been a different story.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/14/

I don't think his overpowering Renji to that extent is his determination to win. That would give him endurance and courage, not raw power and the ability to numb out pain from a wound like that. However looking at Hollow Ichigo's fights that's exactly like him. Even the way he's talking resembles Inner Hollow Ichigo far more than sounding like something Ichigo would say.

Of course this is just a theory without there being any true backing to it. But consider. It is stated Ichigo had his own shinigami powers even excluding what Rukia gave him. Yet he was not a Shinigami, he is a human.

Next look at this

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/02/

That is not what happens when someone turns into a hollow. They dissapear and reform elsewhere. So why is it starting with the mask? This is not unlike what happens when his Hollow side takes over like against Byakuya. It starts with the mask.

This is my theory. Ichigo already had Shinigami powers, and he already had hollow powers. And the reason Ichigo doesn't reform somewhere else is because he already has a hollow.


Though not that any of this has relevence to the actual thread. I'm just really tired and babbling.




Just as i see it. It is simplier to assume Ichigo beating Kenpachi was PIS than Kenpachi beating #5 is PIS. It makes allot more sense. If Ichigo beating Kenny was PIS we don't have to assume there are massive power gaps inbetween the captains. We don't have to assume Kurotsuchi was being unusually unconfrontational when Kenpachi stopped him from interrogating Ikkaku. Kenpachi's beating the 2 captains makes actual sense. Ichigo not being much stronger relative to Byakuya even after gaining his mask fits better with Kenpachi.

Otherwise all of the above is iffy.

Kenpachi beating Tousen and Foxman would also have to be PIS, since he would be one of the 'weaker captains'

If Ichigo was making massive power leaps with his mask, why is it he went trhough an epic battle with 6, when Byakuya used bankai on 7 and annihilated him.

But hey, just calling it like i see it.

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Even so i don't think that's an entirely accurate portrayal.

First of all, when Ichigo got that massive power boost in his first encounter with Renji we don't know anything about that. But it seems highly unlikely that was a constant power. If you ask me, his insane speed, his lack of reaction to pain, and even the look in his eye. I would say that is when his hollow manifested it's powers.

We do know, however, that Ichigo was stronger than Rukia and Rukia was at least as strong as a seated shinigami. At least. She fought and defeated an Espada. Sure, she almost died...but we know Byukuga kept Rukia from becoming seated to keep her from more dangerous missions. Ichigo was stronger than what we know as a seated officer...from the get go.

Then, Ichigo's character is built around the idea that he makes progress at a unprecedented pace in the Bleach-verse. Ichigo reaching captain level in a year, in and of itself, would be PIS IF it wasn't for Kubo writing that into his character.

That's just who Ichigo is.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Captain level to lietenant is a big difference. Very big, and i think Ichigo crossed the gap far too simply. And as i said i think his defeat of Kenpachi was PIS.

Sure it is. But there has to be a gap bridged at some point. The Lieutenants fill that gap somehow and that somehow are those few rare lieutenants that reach bankai.


Originally posted by EvilAngel
Kenpachi at the same level of strength took on and won again two captain at the same time. Then defeated Tousens bankai. And matched the Foxman until he ran away to help Yamamoto.

Kenpachi is just simply badass, though. His power is hand2hand. So much so that even trickery techniques like Tousan's couldn't completely fool Kenpachi in a simple sword fight.


Originally posted by EvilAngel
I also must admit i don't fully grasp how Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was pis.

I'll explain it another way:


Ichigo was about captain level when he fought Kenpachi. Kenpachi is in the top half of captains in fighting ability by feats and by the databook.

Ichigo won that fight, but just barely. Kenpachi took his patch off and was certainly not holding back as far as anyone can tell, period. If anyone claims he was holding back, it is baseless speculation.

Then, Ichigo gets a few days of training and not only drastically improves his strength, sword skill, tactics, and speed, he also learns (quite well, mind you) flash step and masters his bankai.

Ichigo becomes so fast that he can block 100,000,000 tiny blades being thrown at him as fast as a flash step can travel. That's retarded fast. Yet, Kuchiki is able to keep up in a sword fight with Ichigo? Rediculous and PIS itself.


So, we have this Ichigo who is better than most captains, become much stronger.

Hallow Ichigo having trouble against any Espada is PIS itself...except Ulq in his second form. The only captains I should have been able to keep up with the top Espada are Shunsui, Unohana, and Ukitake. When Ichigo reaches his bankai form, he should have been right up there with those captains. But noooo. Kubo had to PIS his progress and basically fly in the face of everything that had happened before then. Hell, Ichigo blocked the attack of a super zanpakutou (Sokyoku) that should have destroyed his sword. (When Rukia was almost killed.)

This is why Kenpachi should not have even stood a chance against Espada #5, who should have been stronger than #6. Also, the Espada should have all been stronger than the captains, except for the top 3 I mentioned earlier....and Yamamoto, which goes without saying.



Tousen and Sajin are in the bottom half of captains. In fact, Kenpachi is considered the weakest captain, and that makes sense. If Tousen wasn't such a pussy, he could have easily killed Kenpachi with no problem. Instead, he "pulled his punches." Tousen, Kenpachi, and Sajin are all in the bottom half.


Ichigo beating the, by Bleach standards, the weakest captain, when he was right there at about low level captain, shouldn't be PIS. However, the lowest level captain winning against the #5 Espada is PIS...when Ichigo, who should have been up there with Shunsui and a healthy Ukitake, barely won against the #6.


Now, I've heard other justifications as to why #5 was #5 and Grimmjow #6: Grimmjow was under-ranked and/or Nnoitra was ranked so high because his hierro was so strong that it would be very hard for anyone without massive reiryoku to be able to cut him...but people with really high reiryoku like Kenpachi and Espada #4 and up could. This can mean that a character that wasn't as fast or had as much reiryoku could conceivably make it to #5....only because he couldn't be challenged well enough by anyone beneath him.


Therefore, if Kenpachi can move as fast and has just as much if not more reiryoku, no matter how he stacks up against the other captains, he was the perfect math for #5. However, he STILL had to amp his attack power by doubling his hands up.

That's almost a stretch, though, as the justification is almost baseless.

So, anyway, yeah. Ichigo should be, without his Hallow mask, up there with Shunsui and Ukitake. And with it, up there near Yamamoto and Aizen, but not quite that strong. Yet, he struggled against Grimmjow.


To me, that was stupid. It's just another case of the DBZ syndrome: the heroes are weaker than the current badguy/s, no matter how strong...all previous logic be damned.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon

Ichigo becomes so fast that he can block 100,000,000 tiny blades being thrown at him as fast as a flash step can travel. That's retarded fast. Yet, Kuchiki is able to keep up in a sword fight with Ichigo? Rediculous and PIS itself.




Hollow Ichigo States it's Ichigo spirit pressure that's slowing him down. From the moment he used Bankai, Ichigo got slower and slower.


Just thought i'd post that before i fall alseep on my keyboard ^^'

Night night dadude

dadudemon
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hmm, from that point of view, I suppose you are right. Ichigo did win.

Indeed. However, I would like to say that Kenpachi won...because Kenpachi is my fav. It's just the way the "rules" were written for "winning." Hell, Byakuga said that Ichigo won their fight, despite Ichigo being unable to really move. It's really only because Byakuga's sword broke, too, from their final clash. Thats the "rules" I guess for Bleach fights.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
When they first met, Ichigo wasn't at the level of a top lieutenant. He got more powerful during the fight, and it was enough to beat a Renji at 1/5 his normal power. Lieutenants and Captains have their power lowered to a fifth of what it normally is when they enter the human dimension.

You're correct. When they first met, he wasn't. However, at the end, before he lost his abilities, he was.

That's why I said this, "Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time."


And, your point only further conveys that idea of Ichigo growing absurdly stronger by the 1/5 power level from Renji and Byakuya. I had forgotten all about that. So, I made a factual mistake (see, it happens to everyone), but that mistake actually helps make my point of the absurd amount of progess Ichigo made before his fight with Kenpachi.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I don't recall anything being said about the limit not being placed, though I may be wrong.

No, you're right. They specifically mention that they release that limiter when they first fight Espada. This happened around chapter 195-200 when Toshiro fought those arrancar.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Ichigo never had a hollow half when he first met Renji. It was probably his determination to win manifesting itself. That same determination & will manifests when he trains with Urahara. That is also part of his power.

If the amp Ichigo got when he fought against Kenpachi was permanent, then it means that he obviously would be more powerful while using Bankai. Curbstomping more powerful once he became proficient with his Vizard powers.

Seeing as a vizard Ichigo in control of his hollow powers just scraped through the fight against the 6th Espada, he considers it PIS as there was no way a weaker character would be able to defeat the 5th Espada, given that there was no way Kenpachi could have become that powerful in approximately three months.

Had he learned his zanpakutou's name and learned shikai, it might have been a different story.


I agree on all points. You're most correct about Ichigo just concentrating on what he had learned with Urahara. That portion is brought out more in the Anime as he recalls his lesson about doing that getsuga tensho thing against him to win. In fact, Ichigo had enough spiritual power to cause Renji to feel heavy under his spiritual pressure when they first met and Ichigo's not even flexing it like Aizen did against Grimmjow:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106212/14.jpg

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Just as i see it. It is simplier to assume Ichigo beating Kenpachi was PIS than Kenpachi beating #5 is PIS. It makes allot more sense. If Ichigo beating Kenny was PIS we don't have to assume there are massive power gaps inbetween the captains. We don't have to assume Kurotsuchi was being unusually unconfrontational when Kenpachi stopped him from interrogating Ikkaku. Kenpachi's beating the 2 captains makes actual sense. Ichigo not being much stronger relative to Byakuya even after gaining his mask fits better with Kenpachi.

Otherwise all of the above is iffy.

Kenpachi beating Tousen and Foxman would also have to be PIS, since he would be one of the 'weaker captains'

If Ichigo was making massive power leaps with his mask, why is it he went trhough an epic battle with 6, when Byakuya used bankai on 7 and annihilated him.

But hey, just calling it like i see it.

But there are massive power gaps between captains.

And Kenpachi winning against two other captains who were stronger than him was not really PIS when you consider they took him one at a time and instead of using techniques Kenpachi would be very weak at, kidou, they took him head on. Kenpachi's fight with Sajin would have surely ended with his death to Sajin. And all Tousen had to do at the very beginning of the fight was walk up to Kenpachi and take off his head. Noooo...Tousen had to take a few superficial swings first so Kenpachi could learn to feel and move right at the last second to prevent his vitals from being hit.

BTW, both tousen and Sajin are bottom half fighters. Ichigo should be able to take them both out in his Bankai form, no problem.

Kenpachi is a superb sword fighter, no doubt. One of the best. He can take on most anyone in a sword fight with out flash step or sonido. He says that he can keep up because his legs are so strong that he doesn't need flash step...which in and of itself is just awesomely absurd. His reiryoku is second only to Yamamoto, imo. However, he lost to Ichigo when Ichigo could barely be considered captain level. (Ichigo was a low end captain level in his fight with Kenpachi, imo.)

Ichigo winning was not PIS. Especially when you consider that Kenpachi is supposed to be the weakest captain.

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Hollow Ichigo States it's Ichigo spirit pressure that's slowing him down. From the moment he used Bankai, Ichigo got slower and slower.


Just thought i'd post that before i fall alseep on my keyboard ^^'

Night night dadude

Night, pretty lady.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I don't think his overpowering Renji to that extent is his determination to win. That would give him endurance and courage, not raw power and the ability to numb out pain from a wound like that. However looking at Hollow Ichigo's fights that's exactly like him. Even the way he's talking resembles Inner Hollow Ichigo far more than sounding like something Ichigo would say.

Of course this is just a theory without there being any true backing to it. But consider. It is stated Ichigo had his own shinigami powers even excluding what Rukia gave him. Yet he was not a Shinigami, he is a human.

Next look at this

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/02/

That is not what happens when someone turns into a hollow. They dissapear and reform elsewhere. So why is it starting with the mask? This is not unlike what happens when his Hollow side takes over like against Byakuya. It starts with the mask.

This is my theory. Ichigo already had Shinigami powers, and he already had hollow powers. And the reason Ichigo doesn't reform somewhere else is because he already has a hollow.


Though not that any of this has relevence to the actual thread. I'm just really tired and babbling.

Just as i see it. It is simplier to assume Ichigo beating Kenpachi was PIS than Kenpachi beating #5 is PIS. It makes allot more sense. If Ichigo beating Kenny was PIS we don't have to assume there are massive power gaps inbetween the captains. We don't have to assume Kurotsuchi was being unusually unconfrontational when Kenpachi stopped him from interrogating Ikkaku. Kenpachi's beating the 2 captains makes actual sense. Ichigo not being much stronger relative to Byakuya even after gaining his mask fits better with Kenpachi.

Otherwise all of the above is iffy.

Kenpachi beating Tousen and Foxman would also have to be PIS, since he would be one of the 'weaker captains'

If Ichigo was making massive power leaps with his mask, why is it he went trhough an epic battle with 6, when Byakuya used bankai on 7 and annihilated him.

But hey, just calling it like i see it.

He also becomes determined to win against Kenpachi. It's reflected in his eyes, the will to cut anything. He numbs out wounds in that fight (or they stop bleeding completely, I dunno, the wounds are still there though). He acts like a berserker at times, without the influence of the mask. Even surviving debilitating wounds is in his ability (Aizen cuts Ichigo badly, he survives Ceros, etc).
HI taking control has always been signified by the formation of the mask.

Another instance occurs in his final fight with Grimmjow. They fight on par for most of it, and at the end, Girmmjow overpowers Ichigo & is about to kill an Ichigo who had lost most of his mask. After hearing Orihime, he was able to stop his strike without looking (talk about cool) and injure Grimmjow with a clean slash. He required Getsuga Tenshou's to cut Grimmjow before that. His determination is tied to how much power he can use.

Kisuke says that Ichigo's order is haphazard because he is resisting his conversion into a hollow.

If he had had hollow powers during his first fight with Renji and Byakuya, why didn't the mask form?

I can understand Ichigo having latent shinigami powers that were brought out by Rukia, but not hollow powers. Not unless Grand Fisher performed some sort of weird experiment on him.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Night night dadude

No goodnight for me stick out tongue?

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He also becomes determined to win against Kenpachi. It's reflected in his eyes, the will to cut anything. He numbs out wounds in that fight (or they stop bleeding completely, I dunno). He acts like a berserker at times, without the influence of the mask. Even surviving debilitating wounds is in his ability (Aizen cuts Ichigo badly, he survives Ceros, etc).
HI taking control has always been signified by the formation of the mask.

Another instance occurs in his final fight with Grimmjow. They fight on par for most of it, and at the end, Girmmjow overpowers Ichigo & is about to kill an Ichigo who had lost most of his mask. After hearing Orihime, he was able to stop his strike without looking (talk about cool) and injure Grimmjow with a clean slash. He required Getsuga Tenshou's to cut Grimmjow before that. His determination is tied to how much power he can use.

Kisuke says that Ichigo's order is haphazard because he is resisting his conversion into a hollow.

If he had had hollow powers during his first fight with Renji and Byakuya, why didn't the mask form?

I can understand Ichigo having latent shinigami powers that were brought out by Rukia, but not hollow powers. Not unless Grand Fisher performed some sort of weird experiment on him.



No goodnight for me stick out tongue?

Just to clarify this is just speculation from my part. It's an idea that hit be ages ago, but writing on here it's fun to play with the idea =)


But at no point during this fight do his eyes turn blue. His eyes also turn by when he destroys the execution stand, which is said to be able to stop a million zanpactou, or something like that.

I understand what you mean, but seriously, look at it;

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/12/

He overpowers him to the point he bats Renji away like a fly with one hand. And it's a back hand slash, the weakest kind. For me it's the only thing that makes sense, he draws out his Hollow strength during that fight. It doesn't get a face until his training with Urahara forces it out. That's what i think. Since i think most everyone would try to resist hollowification ;p


I agree that when Ichigo gains resolve, his power fluctuates highly. But i don't think this is that. He's acting far too much like Shirosaki.

I think the mask didn't form because the hollow power didn't have a conciousness. That formed when Urahara messed with Ichigo i think.


I can't think of a reason that Ichigo would have latent Shinigami powers and excludes the possibility he could have hollow powers. Just me ;p


Well you can have a Good Afternoon Demonic Phoenix. =)



edit: Actually can i just say, i think there's a difference between being able to resist the pain of his wounds and not feeling pain from them anymore. That i feel is an important and cruicial difference between hollowization and a strong resolve

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. However, I would like to say that Kenpachi won...because Kenpachi is my fav. It's just the way the "rules" were written for "winning." Hell, Byakuga said that Ichigo won their fight, despite Ichigo being unable to really move. It's really only because Byakuga's sword broke, too, from their final clash. Thats the "rules" I guess for Bleach fights.

True say.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're correct. When they first met, he wasn't. However, at the end, before he lost his abilities, he was.

That's why I said this, "Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time."

And, your point only further conveys that idea of Ichigo growing absurdly stronger by the 1/5 power level from Renji and Byakuya. I had forgotten all about that. So, I made a factual mistake (see, it happens to everyone), but that mistake actually helps make my point of the absurd amount of progess Ichigo made before his fight with Kenpachi.

Perhaps. Considering Renji had for the most part acquired his bankai, or was close to, he was already near the level of a captain. Though the power gap between Captains and Lieutenants is so immense, I don't think even a Lieutenant who is in Soul Society would be as powerful as a captain with the limiter (in terms of base abilities, the bankai would still take effect for the captain so that would be an edge obviously). So yeah, Ichigo was definitely Lieutenant level, though I'm not sure if we were a high level lieutenant.

Though yes, Ichigo has always been one to make ridiculous leaps in power, so much so that it almost seems like PIS.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree on all points. You're most correct about Ichigo just concentrating on what he had learned with Urahara. That portion is brought out more in the Anime as he recalls his lesson about doing that getsuga tensho thing against him to win. In fact, Ichigo had enough spiritual power to cause Renji to feel heavy under his spiritual pressure when they first met and Ichigo's not even flexing it like Aizen did against Grimmjow:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106212/14.jpg

Indeed. Renji probably wouldn't have felt like that had the limiter not been active. Ichigo has always had an incredibly high amount of reiatsu.

That determination of his is incredible to say the least.

Also, Sajin might be low-level, but I don't think Tousen is. Tousen is at least mid-level imo. His bankai is quite powerful all things considered. He's also pretty good with flash steps and he's able to fight properly. His senses are well honed as above all, he's frickin blind.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Just to clarify this is just speculation from my part. It's an idea that hit be ages ago, but writing on here it's fun to play with the idea =)

No problem with that on my end.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
But at no point during this fight do his eyes turn blue. His eyes also turn by when he destroys the execution stand, which is said to be able to stop a million zanpactou, or something like that.

That 'blue' effect is only a part of the anime which signals his will to win kicking in. We can't really tell if his eyes turn blue in the manga >__>. I look at his expression, he appears quite merciless/blank during those times.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I understand what you mean, but seriously, look at it;

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/12/

He overpowers him to the point he bats Renji away like a fly with one hand. And it's a back hand slash, the weakest kind. For me it's the only thing that makes sense, he draws out his Hollow strength during that fight. It doesn't get a face until his training with Urahara forces it out. That's what i think. Since i think most everyone would try to resist hollowification ;p

I agree that when Ichigo gains resolve, his power fluctuates highly. But i don't think this is that. He's acting far too much like Shirosaki.

I think the mask didn't form because the hollow power didn't have a conciousness. That formed when Urahara messed with Ichigo i think.


imo he surprises Renji with his power level, and then Renji fails to react properly when Ichigo capitalizes. He is then shocked that Ichigo could do something like that. Had Renji been able to react accordingly, he'd have avoided most of the damage he took.

The only way Ichigo could turn into a hollow is if he loses his chain which is what happens when Urahara trains him. Considering he was alive and well and had his chain intact, there was no hollow inside him.

Your theory is alright, and I'd accept it if Kubo reveals that Grand Fisher did something to Ichigo when GF killed Ichigo's mother. That's the only way I see Ichigo having hollow powers from the start.

He was never able to fully access Shinigami powers until Rukia helped him. Yeah, that might be it. His reiatsu at first was like a blank slate, a form that could either turn towards hollow or shinigami. He just needed some help for it to go either way. Rukia helped him with the first, then Urahara helped Ichigo's reiatsu follow both ways. So part of your theory might be correct, but not the part that states Ichigo had hollow powers during his first fight with Renji.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I can't think of a reason that Ichigo would have latent Shinigami powers and excludes the possibility he could have hollow powers. Just me ;p

Ichigo's father was a very powerful captain level shinigami at one point. Even if Isshin lost the bulk of his powers when he fathered Ichigo, it still could play a part on why Ichigo has such a high amount of Spiritual power.

It was latent at first, Rukia then helped him release it by lending some of her own, then he lost his access to Rukia's spiritual powers and by extension, access to his own, and finally, he trained with Kisuke to release his own spiritual powers. That's how I see it.

On a side note, I really wish Kubo would show Isshin Kurosaki (damn bastard acts like a fool around Ichigo when he is in fact quite cool) and Ryuken Ishida (imo looks better than Uryuu, srsly) in a fight where they show just how powerful they really are. Those two are implied to be mad strong.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Well you can have a Good Afternoon Demonic Phoenix. =)

That's a pity wish mad...thanks smile.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No problem with that on my end.



That 'blue' effect is only a part of the anime which signals his will to win kicking in. We can't really tell if his eyes turn blue in the manga >__>. I look at his expression, he appears quite merciless/blank during those times.



imo he surprises Renji with his power level, and then Renji fails to react properly when Ichigo capitalizes. He is then shocked that Ichigo could do something like that. Had Renji been able to react accordingly, he'd have avoided most of the damage he took.

The only way Ichigo could turn into a hollow is if he loses his chain which is what happens when Urahara trains him. Considering he was alive and well and had his chain intact, there was no hollow inside him.

Your theory is alright, and I'd accept it if Kubo reveals that Grand Fisher did something to Ichigo when GF killed Ichigo's mother. That's the only way I see Ichigo having hollow powers from the start.

He was never able to fully access Shinigami powers until Rukia helped him. Yeah, that might be it. His reiatsu at first was like a blank slate, a form that could either turn towards hollow or shinigami. He just needed some help for it to go either way. Rukia helped him with the first, then Urahara helped Ichigo's reiatsu follow both ways. So part of your theory might be correct, but not the part that states Ichigo had hollow powers during his first fight with Renji.



Ichigo's father was a very powerful captain level shinigami at one point. Even if Isshin lost the bulk of his powers when he fathered Ichigo, it still could play a part on why Ichigo has such a high amount of Spiritual power.

It was latent at first, Rukia then helped him release it by lending some of her own, then he lost his access to Rukia's spiritual powers and by extension, access to his own, and finally, he trained with Kisuke to release his own spiritual powers. That's how I see it.

On a side note, I really wish Kubo would show Isshin Kurosaki (damn bastard acts like a fool around Ichigo when he is in fact quite cool) and Ryuken Ishida (imo looks better than Uryuu, srsly) in a fight where they show just how powerful they really are. Those two are implied to be mad strong.



That's a pity wish mad...thanks smile.

Yeah you're probably right. I've said pretty much everything i had thought about so sorry to say but i don't have anything really to add or respond with.

Still it's fun to go back and reread the roots of bleach. Our boy Ichigo has come a long way eh? =)


Yeah, i must admit, i'd very much liek to see more of Isshin and Ishida's father. But we probably won't for a good amount of time =(

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yeah you're probably right. I've said pretty much everything i had thought about so sorry to say but i don't have anything really to add or respond with.

Still it's fun to go back and reread the roots of bleach. Our boy Ichigo has come a long way eh? =)


Yeah, i must admit, i'd very much liek to see more of Isshin and Ishida's father. But we probably won't for a good amount of time =(

He sure has, I'm so proud of him stick out tongue.
Kubo's way of drawing Ichigo also changed, he looks different in the earlier chapters.

Which sucks to be frank.
I'd also like it if Uryuu found a way to access the Final Form without losing his powers.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Perhaps. Considering Renji had for the most part acquired his bankai, or was close to, he was already near the level of a captain. Though the power gap between Captains and Lieutenants is so immense, I don't think even a Lieutenant who is in Soul Society would be as powerful as a captain with the limiter (in terms of base abilities, the bankai would still take effect for the captain so that would be an edge obviously). So yeah, Ichigo was definitely Lieutenant level, though I'm not sure if we were a high level lieutenant.

Though yes, Ichigo has always been one to make ridiculous leaps in power, so much so that it almost seems like PIS.

No no, you're right. If Renji was at 1/5 (we know he was from what Toshiro said), then Ichigo having what...double...triple Renji's reiatsu, then Renji should feel shocked and become slightly paralyzed, like he did there. Then, when they met together and fought in soul society, both fully powered, Renji would have 5 times as much reiryoku. That's a huge jump. So, actually it works out nicely and there was no PIS there at that point.

However, that DOES further illustrate my point that Ichigo made a MASSIVE leap in power under his training with Urahara. At the very least, he grew 5 times stronger. Before, he was stronger than a 1/5 powered lieutenant that was almost captain level, but not quite. Then, he was slightly stronger than a lieuteneant that was almost captain level (same person, just no 1/5 limiter). He grew from their fight and understood better the "focus" and "determination" required, but he did not yet know his swords name, nor had he become one with his sword, you.

When he fought Kenpachi, he wasn't very much stronger at that point. So, yes, he should have lost and he WAS losing, VERY badly. However, finally learned his sword's name, learned more about his intense focus and determination, even against stacked odds, and he ended up winning. Kenpachi is the lowerst overall captain, but has really high combat ability. So, in order to overcome someone like that, Ichigo had to just raise his reiryoku and reiatsu high enough to match Kenpachi, which is not PIS for Ichigo as he was the same type of fighter as Kenpachi. Ichigo won, despite being the less experienced fighter, because he gat the little extra boost from being one with his zanpakutou AND because he had more focus and a will to win. He was there to save Rukia. So, his winning that fight wasn't even remotely PIS as Ichigo has tons of reasons why he should have won AND lose that fight.


To sum up: he was losing because he was scared and wasn't focusing hard enough. He realized that he should stop being a mangina and increase his focus. He also had an epiphany, as many protagonists have in japanese manga and anima, and grew stronger and increased his focus by becoming one with his sword. Even a Kenpachi with double the reiryoku could not overcome Ichigo's renewed determination and new bond with his Zanpakutou, because of Ichigo's will to save his friend, Rukia.

For me, the Kenpachi fight was a major learning step for Ichigo.


The second step was his training with Hot cat naked chick lady: Yoruichi. He jumped from low level captain to average captain just a day or so into traning. By the 3 day, he was high level captain, able to keep up with Byakuya and even "beat" him.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Indeed. Renji probably wouldn't have felt like that had the limiter not been active. Ichigo has always had an incredibly high amount of reiatsu.

I agree. With 5 times as much reiryoku, Renji wouldn't have frozen up like that.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Also, Sajin might be low-level, but I don't think Tousen is. Tousen is at least mid-level imo. His bankai is quite powerful all things considered. He's also pretty good with flash steps and he's able to fight properly. His senses are well honed as above all, he's frickin blind.

Sajin is lower half. Tousen is lowe level. His Bankai is very similar to Aizen's Shikai...just for a specific area. However, he was definitely not a better swordsman than Kenpachi, as we clearly saw. Therefore, logic dictates that Tousen would not be better than Ichigo. That SHOULD be true, but then we have the PIS moment where Tousen cuts off Grimmjow's arm. LAME! That was just a plot device to get Inoue to heal his arm back. DOUBLE LAME!

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Just to clarify this is just speculation from my part. It's an idea that hit be ages ago, but writing on here it's fun to play with the idea =)


But at no point during this fight do his eyes turn blue. His eyes also turn by when he destroys the execution stand, which is said to be able to stop a million zanpactou, or something like that.

I understand what you mean, but seriously, look at it;

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/12/

He overpowers him to the point he bats Renji away like a fly with one hand. And it's a back hand slash, the weakest kind. For me it's the only thing that makes sense, he draws out his Hollow strength during that fight. It doesn't get a face until his training with Urahara forces it out. That's what i think. Since i think most everyone would try to resist hollowification ;p


I agree that when Ichigo gains resolve, his power fluctuates highly. But i don't think this is that. He's acting far too much like Shirosaki.

I think the mask didn't form because the hollow power didn't have a conciousness. That formed when Urahara messed with Ichigo i think.


I can't think of a reason that Ichigo would have latent Shinigami powers and excludes the possibility he could have hollow powers. Just me ;p


Well you can have a Good Afternoon Demonic Phoenix. =)



edit: Actually can i just say, i think there's a difference between being able to resist the pain of his wounds and not feeling pain from them anymore. That i feel is an important and cruicial difference between hollowization and a strong resolve

Ichigo's "hallow" abilities are not present until after he gets his powers back. The process that Urahara used is what caused Ichigo to have an inner hallow.

The lack of not feeling his wounds is from his resolve. Since his hallow powers did not exist at this moment, it can only be attributed to his resolve. His hallow powers didn't exist until Urahara brought his shinigami power back with that process. It was because Ichigo went so far into the halllowfication process that he had that latent hallow personality inside of him. It left a "residual" effect on Ichigo.

NemeBro
It does not take a friggin rocket scientist to figure out that the Captains received a power boost to fight the Espada.

Also, by the time Kenpachi had released his power, he sustained numerous grievous injuries. Ichigo was practically fresh.

Also, that amp he received in that fight, WAS temporary, his Reitsu was so bonded with Zangetsu's his previous wounds stopped bleeding from the amp, anyone care to show me him doing this again?

Kenny has obviously gotten stronger, since he outright SAYS it, and we SEE it, at first he had serious trouble cutting Nnoitra, then he was able to adapt to his incredible Hierro and sliced through it. Yeah, dur.

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
It does not take a friggin rocket scientist to figure out that the Captains received a power boost to fight the Espada.

They didn't. This is completely baseless. no expression

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, by the time Kenpachi had released his power, he sustained numerous grievous injuries. Ichigo was practically fresh.

This is also incorrect. Ichigo got a mortal wound closed up by Zangetsu. Ichigo had gotten sliced up, himself. no expression

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, that amp he received in that fight, WAS temporary, his Reitsu was so bonded with Zangetsu's his previous wounds stopped bleeding from the amp, anyone care to show me him doing this again?

You mean that Zangetsu had closed up the wound? Yes, thatís exactly what you meant.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenny has obviously gotten stronger, since he outright SAYS it, and we SEE it, at first he had serious trouble cutting Nnoitra, then he was able to adapt to his incredible Hierro and sliced through it. Yeah, dur.

Pics of him saying he had gotten stronger because of training after his fight with Ichigo, or ANY rerferential time frame post Ichigo fight. K. Thanks.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dadudemon
They didn't. This is completely baseless. no expression



This is also incorrect. Ichigo got a mortal wound closed up by Zangetsu. Ichigo had gotten sliced up, himself. no expression



You mean that Zangetsu had closed up the wound? Yes, thatís exactly what you meant.



Pics of him saying he had gotten stronger because of training after his fight with Ichigo, or ANY rerferential time frame post Ichigo fight. K. Thanks. 1. Let's see.

Byakuya was able to fight and defeat the 7th Espada, who was only a little weaker than Grimmjow, you know, the same guy who utterly raped Bankai Ichigo their first fight?

Kenpachi was able to take on and defeat the Fifth Espada...Doing so easily in fact, once he got serious.

Hitsugaya somehow can now hold his own and was going to defeat the Third Espada. Before that, he had trouble with Gin and some other chump Arrancar for Christ's sake.

Mayuri was able to pretty easily dispose of Szazel, although this was due largely to prep.

Shit, Kenpachi showed the ability to take on two Captains using their Shikai almost directly after his fight with Ichigo, and then took out Tousen without much trouble, once again, sealed.

Do you really think Ichigo with his Shikai is that strong?

Also, I am not saying they all "trained" or whatever bullshit way you interpreted my statement, I am saying Kubo brought them up to that level for plot purposes.

2. Once. no expression And said wound was no longer detrimental to him, and was absolutely trivial compared to Kenny's injuries.

3. Which does not refute my point in the least, semantic arguments tend to fail at that. Glad you agree though.

4. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/14/

He got used to his Hierro, and adapted his Reitsu to cut him. Kind of like what Ichigo did to be able to fight Kenpachi.

no expression

Only he managed to do this with his power sealed.

Yeah.

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Let's see.

Byakuya was able to fight and defeat the 7th Espada, who was only a little weaker than Grimmjow, you know, the same guy who utterly raped Bankai Ichigo their first fight?

Oh! I see.

So you're missing it. Okay. No prob.

I'll tell you again:

Ichigo NOT utterly destroying Grimmjow should be evidence of PIS. We have an Ichigo that is in the upper third tier captain level when he fights Byakuya and BEATS Byakuya.

By the time Ichigo fights Grimmjow, he gets a massive amp in power: Vizard form.

So, either Grimmjow is MUCH stronger than Byakuya, or Ichigo struggling against Grimmjow is PIS. Since the other top level captains fought MUCH stronger Espada than Grimmjow, we know that Grimmjow's fight was PIS. If you want to argue that Grimmjow was incorrectly rated as #6, I'll agree with that.


So, let's recap: Ichigo beat Kenapchi. Ichigo became MUCH MUCH better in every category when he fought Byakuya. On top of that, he got his Bankai. On top of THAT, Ichigo also unlocked his Vizard form which makes him so strong that characters that handed his ass to him, now get THEIR ass handed back to them.

K.

Follow me?


Now.


We have Kenpachi fight the #5 Espada and win when a Vizard Ichigo barely won against Grimmjow.

Is it clicking for you yet? Do you have the insatiable urge to scream "PIS!" now? If not, you're a fanboy of Kenpachi and our discussion is futile.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenpachi was able to take on and defeat the Fifth Espada...Doing so easily in fact, once he got serious.

This only further proves my point of PIS, sir. However, I don't think it was easy. He had to pull out a "technique" that he had almost forgotten about to win.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hitsugaya somehow can now hold his own and was going to defeat the Third Espada. Before that, he had trouble with Gin and some other chump Arrancar for Christ's sake.

DUH! Now you're getting it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Mayuri was able to pretty easily dispose of Szazel, although this was due largely to prep.

Agreed. However, by Szazel's own admission, he was weak and only got his spot because of his brains.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Shit, Kenpachi showed the ability to take on two Captains using their Shikai almost directly after his fight with Ichigo, and then took out Tousen without much trouble, once again, sealed.

Yeah, we've covered this already. Kenpachi is a great swordfighter. One of the best in all of the series.

Tousen not winning was simply due to a very pure form of PIS. All Tousen had to do was cut his head off at the very beginning of his Bankai technique. Instead, he slashed his back and then slashed him several more times just for what? To torture Kenpachi?

And, Sajin was about to utterly destroy Kenpachi when they both called off the fight. By Sajin's own words, he wasn't nice like Tousen and wasn't going to hold back.

And, no, it WAS much trouble against Tousen. He was close to getting killed, by his own admission. Remove Tousen's PIS moment and Kenpachi would be dead.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Do you really think Ichigo with his Shikai is that strong?

Not only is he "that strong", he got a lot better by the time Kenpachi fought Espada #5.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, I am not saying they all "trained" or whatever bullshit way you interpreted my statement, I am saying Kubo brought them up to that level for plot purposes.

K. I'll buy that. Because then you just admitted that it was PIS which was my argument the whole damn time.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Once. no expression And said wound was no longer detrimental to him, and was absolutely trivial compared to Kenny's injuries.

Wrong.

One deep cut to his sword arm, one slice to the face, one slice to his chest, and a mortal wound right into his chest.

Reread it again. I just did and counted them up. wink

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Which does not refute my point in the least, semantic arguments tend to fail at that. Glad you agree though.

Then that's your problem for failing to "see what I did there."

Your point is useless in actually doing anything to refute that Ichigo has gotten stronger since that fight. You know what that's called? Strawman.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/14/

He got used to his Hierro, and adapted his Reitsu to cut him. Kind of like what Ichigo did to be able to fight Kenpachi.

No, you mean exactly what it says, he got warmed up. In other words, he stopped dicking around and got serious. no expression no expression no expression no expression no expression

No where does it say he trained and got stronger. You took that portion out of context. He certainly "got warmed up" against ichigo, as well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only he managed to do this with his power sealed.

Yeah.

Are you trying to prove my point? You do know my point is that his win was PIS, right?

Overdose
I wish Tite Kubo would explain how Kenpachi is not the weakest Captain. Despite barley bein' able to beat regular Ichigo, then goes on to some how kill an Espada while still not knowing the name of his sword or use Bankai. There are some serious holes beginning to form.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Overdose
I wish Tite Kubo would explain how Kenpachi is not the weakest Captain. Despite barley bein' able to beat regular Ichigo, then goes on to some how kill an Espada while still not knowing the name of his sword or use Bankai. There are some serious holes beginning to form.

Yup. You get it. This is what I was saying.


And, the official databook puts Kenpachi as the overall weakest captain.





BTW, guys, it says that Byakuya has as high or higher spirit power than Kenpachi. So, this further makes my point that Ichigo got much stronger since fighting Kenpachi.

http://img16.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/14-116.0/compressed/Bleach-14-116._manga_rain_bleach_ch116_10.jpg

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yup. You get it. This is what I was saying.


And, the official databook puts Kenpachi as the overall weakest captain.

The same data book says Kenpachi and Aizen have the same Offensive, but Zaraki is Physically stronger.

Doesn't seem too reliable to me.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by EvilAngel
The same data book says Kenpachi and Aizen have the same Offensive, but Zaraki is Physically stronger.

Doesn't seem too reliable to me. \

Meh, it's just stats. If Kubo wrote it himself, I'd see little reason to doubt it.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
\

Meh, it's just stats. If Kubo wrote it himself, I'd see little reason to doubt it.


Originally posted by EvilAngel
The same data book says Kenpachi and Aizen have the same Offensive, but Zaraki is Physically stronger.

Doesn't seem too reliable to me.



http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/14/


I'd say i've just disproven it?

No?

Demonic Phoenix
That (Aizen stopping the sword with one finger) has more to do with Reiatsu/Reiryoku and not physical strength afaik.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That (Aizen stopping the sword with one finger) has more to do with Reiatsu/Reiryoku and not physical strength afaik.

Still i find it difficult to believe that if that's true there was a point of adding physical strength to the list on the chart.

Also going by that Hitsugaya is overall stronger than Gin. Just something i have slight difficulty with.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh! I see.

So you're missing it. Okay. No prob.

I'll tell you again:

Ichigo NOT utterly destroying Grimmjow should be evidence of PIS. We have an Ichigo that is in the upper third tier captain level when he fights Byakuya and BEATS Byakuya.

By the time Ichigo fights Grimmjow, he gets a massive amp in power: Vizard form.

So, either Grimmjow is MUCH stronger than Byakuya, or Ichigo struggling against Grimmjow is PIS. Since the other top level captains fought MUCH stronger Espada than Grimmjow, we know that Grimmjow's fight was PIS. If you want to argue that Grimmjow was incorrectly rated as #6, I'll agree with that.


So, let's recap: Ichigo beat Kenapchi. Ichigo became MUCH MUCH better in every category when he fought Byakuya. On top of that, he got his Bankai. On top of THAT, Ichigo also unlocked his Vizard form which makes him so strong that characters that handed his ass to him, now get THEIR ass handed back to them.

K.

Follow me?


Now.


We have Kenpachi fight the #5 Espada and win when a Vizard Ichigo barely won against Grimmjow.

Is it clicking for you yet? Do you have the insatiable urge to scream "PIS!" now? If not, you're a fanboy of Kenpachi and our discussion is futile.



This only further proves my point of PIS, sir. However, I don't think it was easy. He had to pull out a "technique" that he had almost forgotten about to win.



DUH! Now you're getting it.



Agreed. However, by Szazel's own admission, he was weak and only got his spot because of his brains.



Yeah, we've covered this already. Kenpachi is a great swordfighter. One of the best in all of the series.

Tousen not winning was simply due to a very pure form of PIS. All Tousen had to do was cut his head off at the very beginning of his Bankai technique. Instead, he slashed his back and then slashed him several more times just for what? To torture Kenpachi?

And, Sajin was about to utterly destroy Kenpachi when they both called off the fight. By Sajin's own words, he wasn't nice like Tousen and wasn't going to hold back.

And, no, it WAS much trouble against Tousen. He was close to getting killed, by his own admission. Remove Tousen's PIS moment and Kenpachi would be dead.



Not only is he "that strong", he got a lot better by the time Kenpachi fought Espada #5.



K. I'll buy that. Because then you just admitted that it was PIS which was my argument the whole damn time.



Wrong.

One deep cut to his sword arm, one slice to the face, one slice to his chest, and a mortal wound right into his chest.

Reread it again. I just did and counted them up. wink



Then that's your problem for failing to "see what I did there."

Your point is useless in actually doing anything to refute that Ichigo has gotten stronger since that fight. You know what that's called? Strawman.



No, you mean exactly what it says, he got warmed up. In other words, he stopped dicking around and got serious. no expression no expression no expression no expression no expression

No where does it say he trained and got stronger. You took that portion out of context. He certainly "got warmed up" against ichigo, as well.



Are you trying to prove my point? You do know my point is that his win was PIS, right? 1. PIS? How is it PIS? Grimmjow before that had not ONE showing under his belt, yet Ichigo losing to him was PIS? You have no idea what the **** PIS is, stop throwing the term around, classic case of "I don't like it, it didn't happen." The PIS is how all the Captains somehow magically became strong enough to take on the Arrancar.

Um, Byakuya had trouble with the seventh Espada, so we know he is not above Grimmjow, if he is on his level at all. Also, Vizard form is overrated. Srsly.

Personally? I think Kubo has no idea what the **** he is doing and cannot keep powers consistent, Grimmjow beating Ichigo was not PIS, but alot of other crap is, I would agree with that.



And then Kenpachi became strong enough to fight two captains, simultaneously, sealed. And then he beat Nnoitra. Fact is, newer feats take precedent over old ones, Kenny losing to Ichigo was the PIS, it is the low feat, whereas his general level of power is being able to beat Nnoitra, Tousen, etc.

Stop being a condescending ass.

The only PIS is Kenpachi ever losing to Ichigo, because every other feat is MUCH HIGHER.



...A technique? You mean holding your sword with two hands? erm The same technique which cut through all of Nnoitra's Zanpakuto and nearly killed him, all in one slash? Yeah...Dude no. If Kenny didn't constantly weaken himself in fights, he could have killed Nnoitra from the start.



Szazel was only "weak" because Kubo is an idiot and does not realise that there is more to combat than "T3H PURE POWA!!!" Szazel's powers were broken as hell, being able to damage your opponent's internal organs and the like.

He has proven to be one of the strongest captains.

"I don't like it, it didn't happen." Dude, it gets old. Kenpachi never goes all out against his opponents until he is critically injured, and this is Bleach. No one goes for a fatal blow right off the bat...Well actually that is not true, he pierced Kenny's chest, which did not detriment him in the slightest. I also assume you quickly forgot about Kenny being able to dodge the brunt of Tousen's sword strikes by feeling it touch his Haori?

Sajin was going to DESTROY Kenny? Lol, right, because his showings when he actually fought him definately prove that, amirite!? Like being slammed to the ground? Kenny was taken on both of them while sealed and they had their Shikai, and Sajin had some trouble with a friggin Fraccion, Kenny would destroy him by showings.

Right, because he was REALLY showing how in peril he was, right? Tousen's attacks did not slow him at all, not even the straight stab to the midsection. After that, Kenny destroyed Tousen.


So did near every Captain. Due to PIS for most of them, granted, but Kenny's showing against Nnoitra is more consistent than the one against Ichigo.

I said for plot purposes they were.


Who are you talking about getting injured now? Surely not Ichigo, who was nowhere near that injured.


Of course he has gotten stronger, nowhere did I say he didn't get ****ing stronger. Stop condescending, especially when you are in the wrong. smile

My point was that the amp was temporary, which evidence dictates it was.


He did not have to adapt to Ichigo's Reitsu to cut him, he had to against Nnoitra. There lies the difference, he was able to focus his Reitsu to cut the strongest Hierro of the Espada (Allegedly).


Because the feats that are more consistent are obviously PIS, right? smile

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Still i find it difficult to believe that if that's true there was a point of adding physical strength to the list on the chart.

Also going by that Hitsugaya is overall stronger than Gin. Just something i have slight difficulty with.

Do you know when the databook was released?

Gin has never really shown what he can do when he fights seriously. imo he was fooling around against Toshiro.
Toshiro is strong though, and he has the potential to become stronger than Kyoraku.

King Kandy
Originally posted by NemeBro
Um, Byakuya had trouble with the seventh Espada, so we know he is not above Grimmjow, if he is on his level at all.
You call that having trouble? He easily won as soon as he used Bankai.

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
The same data book says Kenpachi and Aizen have the same Offensive, but Zaraki is Physically stronger.

Doesn't seem too reliable to me.

Seems correct to me. What has Aizen done that shows his physical strength? We know Kenpachi is absurdly strong, physically. He said he doesn't use Shunpu because his legs are so strong that he can just move fast. That's absurd. No one in all of bleach can claim that cept Bankai ichigo.


Originally posted by EvilAngel
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/14/


I'd say i've just disproven it?

No?




Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That (Aizen stopping the sword with one finger) has more to do with Reiatsu/Reiryoku and not physical strength afaik.


In addition to what Demonic Phoenix just said, Ichigo just gone done getting a beat down and could barely stand.


Also, Kenpachi was at less than half his power. He powers up, with the patch still on, shortly after that. Then, he removes the patch. Powers up more. Then, he powers up again right before they clash swords at the end.

Ichigo, shortly after that fight and before he began his training with Yuroichi, was said to have captain level Reiatsu. Hardly a weakling.


Originally posted by EvilAngel
Still i find it difficult to believe that if that's true there was a point of adding physical strength to the list on the chart.

Also going by that Hitsugaya is overall stronger than Gin. Just something i have slight difficulty with.

Toshiro has the most powerful ice zanpakutou. Toshiro also damaged Gin in their little fight, whereas, Gin, did not damage Toshiro.

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. PIS? How is it PIS? Grimmjow before that had not ONE showing under his belt, yet Ichigo losing to him was PIS? You have no idea what the **** PIS is, stop throwing the term around, classic case of "I don't like it, it didn't happen." The PIS is how all the Captains somehow magically became strong enough to take on the Arrancar.

Good god, man. You didn't read anything I said before post this comment, didn't you? I explained exactly how it was PIS. *facepalm*

Originally posted by NemeBro
Um, Byakuya had trouble with the seventh Espada, so we know he is not above Grimmjow, if he is on his level at all. Also, Vizard form is overrated. Srsly.

Um, Byakuya has the same as if not higher reiryoku as Kenpachi. On top of that, he fights smarter, is much faster, and is an expert on Kido. He's better in every way except probably physical attack strength. Hell, his skin was even hard for Renji, the same as Kenpachis. (lol) When Renji lunged forward at the very last bit, his sword broke on Byakuya.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Personally? I think Kubo has no idea what the **** he is doing and cannot keep powers consistent, Grimmjow beating Ichigo was not PIS, but alot of other crap is, I would agree with that.

So now you agree with my main point? Dude, make up your mind so I don't have to pwn you. 313



Originally posted by NemeBro
And then Kenpachi became strong enough to fight two captains, simultaneously, sealed. And then he beat Nnoitra. Fact is, newer feats take precedent over old ones, Kenny losing to Ichigo was the PIS, it is the low feat, whereas his general level of power is being able to beat Nnoitra, Tousen, etc.

No, that's incorrect. Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in a constant release state, just like Ichigo's. NOT sealed.

And, to your second sentence:

You're joking, right? Logic and power continuity be damned, huh? No. That's not how I'm going to do it. My whole damn point is the PIS of the power continuity.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Stop being a condescending ass.

I will, as soon as you stop being an illogical fanboy. no expression

You've gone back and forth between agreeing and disagreeing with me. Make up your mind.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The only PIS is Kenpachi ever losing to Ichigo, because every other feat is MUCH HIGHER.

Uh. No.

Tousen not killing Kenpachi is PIS.

And the fight ended before Sajin was about to utterly destroy Kenpachi. Please, stop this fanboyism of Kenpachi. He's my favorite character, but at least I'm realistic about it.



Originally posted by NemeBro
...A technique? You mean holding your sword with two hands? erm The same technique which cut through all of Nnoitra's Zanpakuto and nearly killed him, all in one slash? Yeah...Dude no. If Kenny didn't constantly weaken himself in fights, he could have killed Nnoitra from the start.

Kendo technique. Deal with it. And the fact that he was even able to keep up with #5 proves it was PIS, as I explained earlier. So, you sort of agreed with me there, as well.



Originally posted by NemeBro
...Szazel was only "weak" because Kubo is an idiot and does not realise that there is more to combat than "T3H PURE POWA!!!" Szazel's powers were broken as hell, being able to damage your opponent's internal organs and the like.

That's why he ended up as an Esapda. no expression

Originally posted by NemeBro
He has proven to be one of the strongest captains.

Against any captains Bankai, including Tousen's, he's weak as hell. He doesn't even stand a chance.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I also assume you quickly forgot about Kenny being able to dodge the brunt of Tousen's sword strikes by feeling it touch his Haori?

You assume incorrectly because I've referenced that no less than twice in this thread. He did his dodging well after Tousen made a few slashes on him.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sajin was going to DESTROY Kenny? Lol, right, because his showings when he actually fought him definately prove that, amirite!? Like being slammed to the ground? Kenny was taken on both of them while sealed and they had their Shikai, and Sajin had some trouble with a friggin Fraccion, Kenny would destroy him by showings.

Duh. erm

Not only is he rated higher, overall, in the databook, for the simple reason he has a Bankai and Kenpachi doesn't, Kenpachi would lose.


And, show me this MASSIVE "taking on both of them" fight you are talking about. I read the same thing you did, and he didn't really take on both of them...really, it was almost completely Tousen. erm

Originally posted by NemeBro
Right, because he was REALLY showing how in peril he was, right? Tousen's attacks did not slow him at all, not even the straight stab to the midsection. After that, Kenny destroyed Tousen.

How is this comment even remotely a counter to this:

"All Tousen had to do was cut his head off at the very beginning of his Bankai technique. Instead, he slashed his back and then slashed him several more times just for what? To torture Kenpachi?"


Originally posted by NemeBro
So did near every Captain. Due to PIS for most of them, granted, but Kenny's showing against Nnoitra is more consistent than the one against Ichigo.

You have that exactly backwards.

Ichigo improved greatly in his 2.5 days. Absurd amounts of progress, to be exact. He was barely able to fight to beat Byakuya. Now, all of a sudden, Kenpachi, who LOST to Ichigo when both were going all out, is able to keep up and even defeat an Espada that is stronger than an Espada Ichigo barely beat?

No, it's the exact opposite. You have in your head, incorrectly so, that Kenpachi took on two captains at once. He really didn't. It was Tousen almost the whole time.

What's horribly inconstant is Kenpachi or any captain keeping up with any of the Espada's...you clearly already admitted this. I don't understand why you keep arguing.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I said for plot purposes they were.

I have no idea what this refers to.


Originally posted by NemeBro
Who are you talking about getting injured now? Surely not Ichigo, who was nowhere near that injured.

I have no idea what you're referring to. (I do, it's just so retarded that it can't possibly be a rebuttal to all of the injuries Ichigo sustained.)

Originally posted by NemeBro
Of course he has gotten stronger, nowhere did I say he didn't get ****ing stronger. Stop condescending, especially when you are in the wrong. smile

My point was that the amp was temporary, which evidence dictates it was.

This is your rebuttal to a strawman argument that I didn't even originally make a point for you to counter to begin with?

My point was that Ichigo got stronger. Then you used a very specific example as a rebuttal by saying his amp was temp. and his wound was closed up by zangetsu and that was the only time old man zangetsu has done that. My point was that you're really missing the point and it was by far, not a temp amp and that your extremely unrelated comment about the sealing of the wound wouldn't fly as a rebuttal. Now, try to keep up.

To say that was a temp amp is to be a retard. Every damn opponent Ichigo fights, he get stronger.


Originally posted by NemeBro
He did not have to adapt to Ichigo's Reitsu to cut him, he had to against Nnoitra. There lies the difference, he was able to focus his Reitsu to cut the strongest Hierro of the Espada (Allegedly).

1. Ichigo was barely captain level during their fight. He was also scared, and had never fought a captain before. He was trying his best not to piss himself, much less, concentrate his reietsu enough to actually damage a reietsu beast like Kenpachi.

2. He DID get warmed up with Ichigo, as well. he amped himself when Ichigo finally cut him. I don't understand how that isn't getting more serious, just the same as he did with #5.

3. He amped himself up and was finally able to cut #5's hierro.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because the feats that are more consistent are obviously PIS, right? smile

Only in your incorrect recollection are they consistent. In fact, you can't even keep yourself straight.

Feats that are consistent? pffft.

You self pwned right there. You forgot just a few sentences into one post what you had already said.

Remember posting this?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Personally? I think Kubo has no idea what the **** he is doing and cannot keep powers consistent

And very shortly thereafter:

Originally posted by NemeBro
So did near every Captain. Due to PIS for most of them,


Originally posted by King Kandy
You call that having trouble? He easily won as soon as he used Bankai.

Indeed. Forgot about that.

jinzin
Blahblahblahblahblah... Oy you guys are all over the place here.

Okay time for me to blab about.

First off, Kenpachi IS NOT one of the weakest captains of the Soul Society.... Unless you're talking about his lack of variable skill-sets or those handbook stats.

I mean I've read this garbage downplaying his fight with Tosen and Kamamora... Just stupid really... Fact is both captains attacked him together with released Shikais while he hadn't even removed his eyepatch and the guy literally laughed at them for their trouble before handling them in a h2h fight at once, THAT is insane!

I'll readily admit that Tousen could have killed Kenpachi with that first strike after releasing his Bonkai, but that was the ONLY attack that he had during the fight which would have given him any advantage, from then on and before then it was all Kenpachi, who once again STILL had yet to remove his eyepatch. erm

We've seen Kenpachi hurt Myori's wrist with a nonchalont grab, who has also shown a bit of timidity towards Kenpachi, and we know that Kenpachi wasted the last squad 11 captain with one blow while the captain was using Bonkai... Weakest of the captains? You're out of your damned mind if you truly believe that.

And when it comes to Ichigo..... The guy is THEE WORST EXAMPLE of any character in Bleach to EVER use as a standard of evidence, period.

Any arguments for using Ichigo as such were tossed right out the damned window the moment, Ulq confirmed something for us that we had been seeing from Ichigo the entire damned series... That his powers bounce up and down all over the place, sure he may have gotten stronger since the start of the series but it's been pretty evident that he has no consistency with his overall growth rate.

The guy stopped a cero but got curbed by Renji who was only using 1/5 of his power, then he curbed Renji 3 seconds later. He was able to beat Ikkaku who was already a master of Bonkai and who Renji STILL literally bowed down to when it came time to find new captains to replace the missing ones, then he got to Renji and barely held his own up to the point his eyes hollowed out white.
C'mon guys even Yuroichi was having a hard time dealing with the fact that Ichigo's Bonkai training wasn't actually making him stronger. Which we later found wasn't his Bonkai's ability anyways.

His strength isn't consistent, so of course his performances are not consistent.

When it comes to the battle that he and Kenpachi already had.
Pretty simple, Kenpachi hadn't fought a worthy opponent in some time as he readily admitted, so his muscles weren't at their peak as they came to be during his duel with Noitra. And, by the time he took his eyepatch off he had already taken literally more than a dozen blows from Zangetsu which regardless of his ability to ignore the pain likely contributed to knocking him out later.

Fact is, Ichigo was working in tandem with his Hollow AND his Zanpakto during that fight.
Zangetsu flat out told Ichigo that he was giving Ichi all the power he had (which is the point of a bonkai release as it is).
Ichi's spiritual pressure took the form of a hollow mask, his eyes hollowed out white and his mask manifested on his body to protect him from the final blow... which Kenpachi met... with one hand....

To say Kenpachi holding back there is a "baseless argument" is just ridiculous, the only way you could draw yourself to that conclusion is if you knew nothing about Kenny's Kendo training... Think about it, using Kendo Kenpachi went from barely being able to keep up with the 5 Espada, to quickly one-shotting him. That's a VAST difference in power that really has no place being ignored.

Now quite frankly when it comes to baseless speculation the only thing I see fitting that category is this assumption that Noitra's rank wasn't befitting his power level when that was stated to be the whole point to their ranking system. Ichigo couldn't match Noitra in a confrontation and there's little to no evidencce whatsoever to indicate otherwise at that time.


At the end of the day you simply can't use Ichigo as a good guarge for other characters.

All that said... Against the form of Hollow Ichigo that Byakuya met in battle and the bounts etc, Kenny would probably get crushed. When Ichi's hollow is in control of his powers he clearly far more powerful than Ichigo himself has been able to display in combat. Both in the way he easily drew an advantage over Byakuya and when he choked out Hyori's hollowfied form.

Against Hollow Ichgio when Ichigo's in control, who fought with Grimmjow, Kenny would likely win.

And against the fully transformed hollow Ichigo he would also likely lose.

jinzin
Originally posted by dadudemon

Um, Byuya has the same as if not higher reiryoku as Kenpachi. On top of that, he fights smarter, is much faster, and is an expert on Kido. He's better in every way except probably physical attack strength. Hell, his skin was even hard for Renji, the same as Kenpachis. (lol) When Renji lunged forward at the very last bit, his sword broke on Byakuya .
Ummm What the f**k?

Not sure how you came to that conclusion when consistency says otherwise. Hanataro and Ganju were able to approach Byakuya from a few yards away while he was flexing his spiritual pressure, while both characters were knocked unconscious just from being within the same block as Kenpachi.

They both fight intelligently. Both are able to determine their enemies attributes and make accurate assessments in how to beat them. Kenny's quite perceptive as he's the only one to note Tosen and Gin's commonality.

Much faster? I dunno about that, maybe a bit, but Kenny's obviously been shown capable of dealing with Sonido and flash step (going by thread perameters)

And iirc it seemed as though Renji's sword broke before it hit Byakuya and he hit him with a stump...


Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that's incorrect. Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in a constant release state, just like Ichigo's. NOT sealed.

I think he was talking about the eyepatch..

anyways.. as far as we know... In his captain's credit ending during season 2 his sword takes on the form of a water based release for a split second... It has no baring on the story obviously, but it should be noted every other captain ending had a bit about them to reveal before they had come into play for the plot, and every other one has come to fruition in one way or another.




Originally posted by dadudemon
Tousen not killing Kenpachi is PIS.

No, it's CIS, character induced stupidity.
The PIS is Kenny being hit with that primary attack when it's immediately displayed afterwards that he can consistently react to Tousen's attacks and counter them too.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And the fight ended before Sajin was about to utterly destroy Kenpachi. Please, stop this fanboyism of Kenpachi. He's my favorite character, but at least I'm realistic about it.

And just what in the blue hell makes you think this? Him getting handled by Kenpachi in a 2vs1 h2h or him having a mass issue dealing with fracion? confused



Originally posted by dadudemon
Against any captains Bankai, including Tousen's, he's weak as hell. He doesn't even stand a chance. ORLY? Is this why he BEAT Tousen using Bankai? Or why he killed the previous Captain of the 11th squad using Bankai with one stroke? Why he beat the 5th espada using his Ressurection release? Or why Ikkaku regards Kenny as "an impossible goal" inspite of mastering Bankai? Because he "doesn't even stand a chance"?

For god sakes, anyone else would have to seriously try to be as arrogant as you and still be this ignorant... It seems to come naturally from you though, nicely done. wink



Originally posted by dadudemon
Not only is he rated higher, overall, in the databook, for the simple reason he has a Bankai and Kenpachi doesn't, Kenpachi would lose.
Which is why Tousen lost to him in spite of using it?
Or the previous Captain of squad 11?
Why Myori's afraid of him?

I mean we all know Renji and Ikkaku would utterly DESTROY Kenpachi "for the simple reason" that they have "a Bankai and Kenpachi doesn't, Kenpachi would lose"..... no expression

Seriously if you believe that then there must be an unopened bottle of subscription pills in your closet your doctor should know about.


Originally posted by dadudemon
And, show me this MASSIVE "taking on both of them" fight you are talking about. I read the same thing you did, and he didn't really take on both of them...really, it was almost completely Tousen. erm
This would be the same fight where he literally laughed off taking both of their full on Shikai attacks? The one where he parried both of their assualts at once and then batted them both away like children? That one?

Yeah, pull your head out of your ass.



Originally posted by dadudemon
How is this comment even remotely a counter to this:

"All Tousen had to do was cut his head off at the very beginning of his Bankai technique. Instead, he slashed his back and then slashed him several more times just for what? To torture Kenpachi?"
K, how about this? All Kenny had to do was do what he did the entire fight and dodge Tousen's attack easily in response.

Consistency and ability dictates Tousen's first strike was CIS at play on both sides, it's an argument that works both ways.



Originally posted by dadudemon
My point was that Ichigo got stronger. Then you used a very specific example as a rebuttal by saying his amp was temp. and his wound was closed up by zangetsu and that was the only time old man zangetsu has done that. My point was that you're really missing the point and it was by far, not a temp amp and that your extremely unrelated comment about the sealing of the wound wouldn't fly as a rebuttal. Now, try to keep up

No it was clearly not temporary which is why Ichigo was able to manifest Zangetsu during his Kenpachi fight and didn't need help to do so later on when he began his Bankai train---doh wait yes he did!

That's why Zangetsu has been able to manifest in every fight with Ichigo and help direct his actions and stop his wounds from blee--- wait no he hasn't.

They why Ichigo's pressure ALWAYS takes the form of a hollow mask when he's about to atta---- wait no it doesn't....

That's why Ichigo's hollow mask is always able to protect Ichigo from taking on serious woun--- wait that isn't right.

That's why Ichigo casually keeps fighting after his pulse has ceased to---wait didn't Inoue have to heal him last time that happened?

Originally posted by dadudemon
To say that was a temp amp is to be a retard. Every damn opponent Ichigo fights, he get stronger.

So every time Ichigo fights an opponent the opponent is stronger? Like when he fought Ikkaku and then fought Renji afterwards who hadn't yet mastered Bankai?... You mean like that?

Pffft.. how is that even a justification to assume that wasn't a temporary amp? Wanna talk about keeping up.

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
Blahblahblahblahblah... Oy you guys are all over the place here.

Okay time for me to blab about.

First off, Kenpachi IS NOT one of the weakest captains of the Soul Society.... Unless you're talking about his lack of variable skill-sets or those handbook stats.

I mean I've read this garbage downplaying his fight with Tosen and Kamamora... Just stupid really... Fact is both captains attacked him together with released Shikais while he hadn't even removed his eyepatch and the guy literally laughed at them for their trouble before handling them in a h2h fight at once, THAT is insane!

I'll readily admit that Tousen could have killed Kenpachi with that first strike after releasing his Bonkai, but that was the ONLY attack that he had during the fight which would have given him any advantage, from then on and before then it was all Kenpachi, who once again STILL had yet to remove his eyepatch. erm

We've seen Kenpachi hurt Myori's wrist with a nonchalont grab, who has also shown a bit of timidity towards Kenpachi, and we know that Kenpachi wasted the last squad 11 captain with one blow while the captain was using Bonkai... Weakest of the captains? You're out of your damned mind if you truly believe that.

And when it comes to Ichigo..... The guy is THEE WORST EXAMPLE of any character in Bleach to EVER use as a standard of evidence, period.

Any arguments for using Ichigo as such were tossed right out the damned window the moment, Ulq confirmed something for us that we had been seeing from Ichigo the entire damned series... That his powers bounce up and down all over the place, sure he may have gotten stronger since the start of the series but it's been pretty evident that he has no consistency with his overall growth rate.

The guy stopped a cero but got curbed by Renji who was only using 1/5 of his power, then he curbed Renji 3 seconds later. He was able to beat Ikkaku who was already a master of Bonkai and who Renji STILL literally bowed down to when it came time to find new captains to replace the missing ones, then he got to Renji and barely held his own up to the point his eyes hollowed out white.
C'mon guys even Yuroichi was having a hard time dealing with the fact that Ichigo's Bonkai training wasn't actually making him stronger. Which we later found wasn't his Bonkai's ability anyways.

His strength isn't consistent, so of course his performances are not consistent.

When it comes to the battle that he and Kenpachi already had.
Pretty simple, Kenpachi hadn't fought a worthy opponent in some time as he readily admitted, so his muscles weren't at their peak as they came to be during his duel with Noitra. And, by the time he took his eyepatch off he had already taken literally more than a dozen blows from Zangetsu which regardless of his ability to ignore the pain likely contributed to knocking him out later.

Fact is, Ichigo was working in tandem with his Hollow AND his Zanpakto during that fight.
Zangetsu flat out told Ichigo that he was giving Ichi all the power he had (which is the point of a bonkai release as it is).
Ichi's spiritual pressure took the form of a hollow mask, his eyes hollowed out white and his mask manifested on his body to protect him from the final blow... which Kenpachi met... with one hand....

To say Kenpachi holding back there is a "baseless argument" is just ridiculous, the only way you could draw yourself to that conclusion is if you knew nothing about Kenny's Kendo training... Think about it, using Kendo Kenpachi went from barely being able to keep up with the 5 Espada, to quickly one-shotting him. That's a VAST difference in power that really has no place being ignored.

Now quite frankly when it comes to baseless speculation the only thing I see fitting that category is this assumption that Noitra's rank wasn't befitting his power level when that was stated to be the whole point to their ranking system. Ichigo couldn't match Noitra in a confrontation and there's little to no evidencce whatsoever to indicate otherwise at that time.


At the end of the day you simply can't use Ichigo as a good guarge for other characters.

All that said... Against the form of Hollow Ichigo that Byakuya met in battle and the bounts etc, Kenny would probably get crushed. When Ichi's hollow is in control of his powers he clearly far more powerful than Ichigo himself has been able to display in combat. Both in the way he easily drew an advantage over Byakuya and when he choked out Hyori's hollowfied form.

Against Hollow Ichgio when Ichigo's in control, who fought with Grimmjow, Kenny would likely win.

And against the fully transformed hollow Ichigo he would also likely lose.

It is true the Kenpachi held back against Ichigo UNTIL he took his patch off and put everything he had into their final strike. Ichigo had a mortal wound. From what we could see, Kenpachi did not have any mortal wounds. He had some nice Gashes and a deep wound on his left upper body, but nothing mortal like Ichigo's wound.

If you want to argue the two handed sword strike, that's cool. Kenpachi didn't think of that until his fight with #5. Had he done that, he would have cut Ichigo in half.

No, Kenpachi did not fight Sajin and Tousen at once. He really fought Tousen 98% of the time with Sajin only preventing the killing blow. If you want to go by Anime feats, cool. That just makes it even more PIS. If you want to say that Kenpachi is physically stronger than Sajin, then I call BS on feats alone. Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi with his Bankai. Tousen could have easily killed Kenpachi with his Bankai. Kenpachi certainly could not beat either of those two captains, even with his PIS win against #5.


Your claim that Ichigo used his hallow powers against Kenpachi are not completely unfounded as Yuroichi did find his mask on him after she rescued him. Fact is, both Ichigo and Kenpachi would have died without aid. Both passed out and both could not stand.

Kenpachi is very badass. Not as fast as some of the other captains, not as strong as Sajin by feats, etc. But he has one of the best combat ratings.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
not as strong as Sajin by feats, etc.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/16/

Sorry but that's just wrong =\

NemeBro
Thank God SOMEBODY else knows what I am saying, Jesus...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Good god, man. You didn't read anything I said before post this comment, didn't you? I explained exactly how it was PIS. *facepalm*



Um, Byakuya has the same as if not higher reiryoku as Kenpachi. On top of that, he fights smarter, is much faster, and is an expert on Kido. He's better in every way except probably physical attack strength. Hell, his skin was even hard for Renji, the same as Kenpachis. (lol) When Renji lunged forward at the very last bit, his sword broke on Byakuya.



So now you agree with my main point? Dude, make up your mind so I don't have to pwn you. 313





No, that's incorrect. Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in a constant release state, just like Ichigo's. NOT sealed.

And, to your second sentence:

You're joking, right? Logic and power continuity be damned, huh? No. That's not how I'm going to do it. My whole damn point is the PIS of the power continuity.



I will, as soon as you stop being an illogical fanboy. no expression

You've gone back and forth between agreeing and disagreeing with me. Make up your mind.



Uh. No.

Tousen not killing Kenpachi is PIS.

And the fight ended before Sajin was about to utterly destroy Kenpachi. Please, stop this fanboyism of Kenpachi. He's my favorite character, but at least I'm realistic about it.





Kendo technique. Deal with it. And the fact that he was even able to keep up with #5 proves it was PIS, as I explained earlier. So, you sort of agreed with me there, as well.





That's why he ended up as an Esapda. no expression



Against any captains Bankai, including Tousen's, he's weak as hell. He doesn't even stand a chance.



You assume incorrectly because I've referenced that no less than twice in this thread. He did his dodging well after Tousen made a few slashes on him.



Duh. erm

Not only is he rated higher, overall, in the databook, for the simple reason he has a Bankai and Kenpachi doesn't, Kenpachi would lose.


And, show me this MASSIVE "taking on both of them" fight you are talking about. I read the same thing you did, and he didn't really take on both of them...really, it was almost completely Tousen. erm



How is this comment even remotely a counter to this:

"All Tousen had to do was cut his head off at the very beginning of his Bankai technique. Instead, he slashed his back and then slashed him several more times just for what? To torture Kenpachi?"




You have that exactly backwards.

Ichigo improved greatly in his 2.5 days. Absurd amounts of progress, to be exact. He was barely able to fight to beat Byakuya. Now, all of a sudden, Kenpachi, who LOST to Ichigo when both were going all out, is able to keep up and even defeat an Espada that is stronger than an Espada Ichigo barely beat?

No, it's the exact opposite. You have in your head, incorrectly so, that Kenpachi took on two captains at once. He really didn't. It was Tousen almost the whole time.

What's horribly inconstant is Kenpachi or any captain keeping up with any of the Espada's...you clearly already admitted this. I don't understand why you keep arguing.



I have no idea what this refers to.




I have no idea what you're referring to. (I do, it's just so retarded that it can't possibly be a rebuttal to all of the injuries Ichigo sustained.)



This is your rebuttal to a strawman argument that I didn't even originally make a point for you to counter to begin with?

My point was that Ichigo got stronger. Then you used a very specific example as a rebuttal by saying his amp was temp. and his wound was closed up by zangetsu and that was the only time old man zangetsu has done that. My point was that you're really missing the point and it was by far, not a temp amp and that your extremely unrelated comment about the sealing of the wound wouldn't fly as a rebuttal. Now, try to keep up.

To say that was a temp amp is to be a retard. Every damn opponent Ichigo fights, he get stronger.




1. Ichigo was barely captain level during their fight. He was also scared, and had never fought a captain before. He was trying his best not to piss himself, much less, concentrate his reietsu enough to actually damage a reietsu beast like Kenpachi.

2. He DID get warmed up with Ichigo, as well. he amped himself when Ichigo finally cut him. I don't understand how that isn't getting more serious, just the same as he did with #5.

3. He amped himself up and was finally able to cut #5's hierro.



Only in your incorrect recollection are they consistent. In fact, you can't even keep yourself straight.

Feats that are consistent? pffft.

You self pwned right there. You forgot just a few sentences into one post what you had already said.

Remember posting this?



And very shortly thereafter:






Indeed. Forgot about that. 1. No you didn't. Just gave your own "I don't like it, it didn't happen" views. Grimmjow being much stronger than Ichigo is not PIS, everyone else get boosted to that level is.

2. Lol, and where did you get this ignorant conclusion? Byakuya's Reiryoku higher than Kenny's my ass. As Jinzin so generously pointed out, Ganju and Hanataro were fine under Byakuya's pressure, Kenny's sealed pressure was too much to even bare. Also, lol at Renji's sword breaking on Byakuya. Because it was not like Renji at this point was almost devoid of spiritual power, and severely injured, amirite!? Although really, it did not even touch his skin, his petals defended where Renji slashed. Byakuya fights smarter? Not by much, if at all...Kenny was the one to discover the flaw in Tousen's Bankai, and then won with little to no trouble. Byakuya is faster in movement, but Kenny's attack and reflex speed have shown to be extremely impressive. Kenny hits much harder. To emphasize on this, Kenpachi is the only Shinigami to cut through an Espada's Hierro without using Bankai (Except Renji cutting Szazel, but Szazel has shit Hierro). While sealed nontheless.

3. I agree there is PIS, it is what qualifies as PIS where our opinions differ.

4. erm Dude, if you are going to insult anyone's ability to read another's posts, make sure you are able to, it was so blatantly obvious I was talking about his ****ing eyepatch, Jesus Christ...

We are not talking about the entire Bleach power continuity, which is indeed ****ed. We are talking about one character, Kenpachi. Whose feat of beating Nnoitra was more consistent than the fight with Ichigo.

5. No, you're just nowhere near as intelligent as your arrogance forces you to believe and are unable to even see my point. smile

6. No, him not killing him from the get-go is CIS, I grant you...Kind of like how Kenpachi did not just cut Ichigo's head off at the start of the fight with his power released...In fact, every Kenpachi fight has CIS that only detriments Kenny. So yeah.

...Sajin was going to destroy Kenpachi? What feats of Sajin do you base this on exactly? Him being manhandled by Kenpachi when they fought, or him having to use his Bankai to handle a mere Fraccion? Yeah, you're talking out of your ass, Sajin is the weakest captain by showings.

7. Kendo technique amounted to holding the sword with two hands, nothing more. It wasn't PIS, because it is more consistent with his previous showing. You ***** about PIS, but all it really amounts to is you denying what happened for what you would have WANTED to happen.

8. Lol, I guess that is why he beat Tousen with his Bankai, amirite? Sealed nontheless. Tousen should have decapitated him with the first hit, true...But using what characters should do, Kenny should have just released and killed Tousen from the start. CIS works both ways.

9. Dude, if you ***** about that, you may as well ***** about every Bleach fight. Kenny could have killed Tousen start of the fight, FACT.

10. O RLY? So I guess that Ikkaku and Renji could beat Kenny too, huh? Despite the fact that Ikkaku sees Kenny as invincible, and impossible for him to beat? And stop referencing the ****ing databook as if it is worth a damn thing. Hitsugaya's overall stats are higher than Ukitake's, yet we know for a FACT that Ukitake is stronger. Kenny's are lower than both Tousen and Mayuri, but we know that Tousen lost to him and Mayuri is afraid of him.

11. Lol.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/19/

Because Kenny clearly did not, effortlessly, and with one hand, block both of their blades, right? He clearly did not grab Komamura and manhandle him, right? Lol gtfo.

12. And Kenny could have killed both Tousen and Komamura at the start of the fight with his unsealed power, point?

13. Ichigo had a temp amp when he beat Kenny, and his fight with Ichigo is less consistent than the one where he beat Nnoitra.

Only he did, as I just showed you. He fought them both, was manhandling both, hell, he took Tousen's Shikai with no trouble at all.

When they got boosted to that level, it was inconsistent and PIS. When they stayed at that level, inconsistency stopped. You may not like it, but it happened and that is how it is.

NemeBro
14. All the "injuries" he sustained? So a little cut on his palm, a flesh wound on his cheek, a small cut on his forearm, and only one lethal stab to the chest, equal the large gash under Kenny's eye, and the two large cuts on Kenny's mid-section? Not to mention unlike Ichigo, Kenny's wounds were not closed up.

15. Okay now, I know you're kind of slow, but try to bear with me, okay?

Ichigo had a few things happen for him during that amp, that have never happened again. Zangetsu was able to block his wounds is the first one, and that is before he received even more power from Zangetsu and was something he has never done again, Zangetsu was fighting totally in tandem with him, holding his sword with him, something that does not happen in every fight, if ever at all, and his aura manifested itself into his Hollow Mask. All of these never happened again. But...We have to assume this amp was permanent, right?

The evidence is in my favor, to deny this is to be a butthurt fanboy.

16. 1. Granted.

2. No, no he did not. I just read the whole fight, this never ****ing happened. He never adapted his Reitsu to Ichigo. Shut up with that shit.

3. Yeah, kinda like what I just said.

17. And you once again miss my point again. For someone who is apparently so intelligent and awesome, you sure are slow, huh?


I had to split my post because it was too long.

dadudemon
Also, I forgot to mention on my last post: you said something about hallow ichigo being part of that fight based on the energy face seen behind ichigo.

By that faulty logic, then Kenpachi was using his hallow powers too. no expression

Originally posted by jinzin
Ummm What the f**k?

Not sure how you came to that conclusion when consistency says otherwise. Hanataro and Ganju were able to approach Byakuya from a few yards away while he was flexing his spiritual pressure, while both characters were knocked unconscious just from being within the same block as Kenpachi.

I posted the scan where it was said "as high as or higher" than Kenpachi. You can claim whatever you want, I'm sticking to the manga. no expression

If you want to argue about something that you're clearly wrong about, that's fine. I wont' continue it. The mere fact that he goes on to say that Byakuya being the strongest head of the four noble families, EVER, should be evidence enough of his strength. erm

Originally posted by jinzin
They both fight intelligently. Both are able to determine their enemies attributes and make accurate assessments in how to beat them. Kenny's quite perceptive as he's the only one to note Tosen and Gin's commonality.

A berserker does not fight intelligently. You are also using Wiki too much.

We have slight intelligence from him: Using his reflexes to prevent himself from getting a mortal wound, and remembering his kendo training in a fight that he was about to get killed in. Other than that, nothing he has done in a fight was anymore intelligent than just using his reiryoku, reietsu, and strength that seems to be natural to him. He said that he didn't like to use tricks like that kendo one. He shies away from tricks.

Originally posted by jinzin
Much faster? I dunno about that, maybe a bit, but Kenny's obviously been shown capable of dealing with Sonido and flash step (going by thread perameters)

No, I'd say absurdly faster. Much much faster.

But, get this, Kenpachi was able to keep up with #5 because he's so strong that he doesn't HAVE to use shunpu. His legs are able to make him go fast. no expression This is another reason Kenpachi is my fave...he's just a f***ing hoss.

Originally posted by jinzin
And iirc it seemed as though Renji's sword broke before it hit Byakuya and he hit him with a stump...

No, that's incorrect. Reread chapter 144. It broke ON him. Byakuya's spiritual pressure was so great and Renji so debilitated that Renji lost that ability to even cut Byakuya anymore.

Since we know for a fact that Byakuya's spiritual power is as large as or greater than Kenpachi's, we know that this is really what happened, not your botched up bastard interpretation.



Originally posted by jinzin
I think he was talking about the eyepatch..

anyways.. as far as we know... In his captain's credit ending during season 2 his sword takes on the form of a water based release for a split second... It has no baring on the story obviously, but it should be noted every other captain ending had a bit about them to reveal before they had come into play for the plot, and every other one has come to fruition in one way or another.

His zanpakutou is already in it's released state. Regardless of what stuff was made up in the anime, it was stated in the manga that Ichigo and Kenpachi both have constantly released zanpakutou. That's the end of that.






Originally posted by jinzin
No, it's CIS, character induced stupidity.
The PIS is Kenny being hit with that primary attack when it's immediately displayed afterwards that he can consistently react to Tousen's attacks and counter them too.

His CIS, as you put it, is the cause of PIS, which is Tousen swearing he was going to kill Kenpachi, then not doing it in the first strike. How is that not utterly retarded? That was fully within his capability. Just as I asked before, was Tousen just trying to torture Kenpachi? That's not like Tousen's character to do that. It's just plain jane PIS.



Originally posted by jinzin
And just what in the blue hell makes you think this? Him getting handled by Kenpachi in a 2vs1 h2h or him having a mass issue dealing with fracion? confused

Again, it wasn't really a 2 versus 1 match. Tousen pretty much did the whole thing solo.

And he handed that Fraccion his ass. That Fraccion also beat a character that is approaching captain level. (Ikkaku)



Originally posted by jinzin
ORLY? Is this why he BEAT Tousen using Bankai? Or why he killed the previous Captain of the 11th squad using Bankai with one stroke? Why he beat the 5th espada using his Ressurection release? Or why Ikkaku regards Kenny as "an impossible goal" inspite of mastering Bankai? Because he "doesn't even stand a chance"?

PIS (or CIS, as you put it) certainly cannot account for the logical fact that IF Tousen was really trying to kill Kenpachi and not dick around, he would have chopped his head off, first thing. That was my point. Kenpachi doesn't stand a chance against any Bankai, if there is no sort of CIS involved. (I like this CIS. CIS is the cause of PIS, sometimes, but I think I'll start using the two initialisms. hehe!)

Originally posted by jinzin
For god sakes, anyone else would have to seriously try to be as arrogant as you and still be this ignorant... It seems to come naturally from you though, nicely done. wink

Now now. Watch the personal insults.

For someone to willfully over look the point I made and then say what you just did above is ignorance. However, you DIDN'T miss my point, you commented on it, and later you said what you did just above. That's worse than ignorance. no expression

If you think for an instant that Kenpachi stands a chance against any captain's bankai, CIS aside, you're just another blind fanboy.




Originally posted by jinzin
Which is why Tousen lost to him in spite of using it?
Or the previous Captain of squad 11?
Why Myori's afraid of him?

I mean we all know Renji and Ikkaku would utterly DESTROY Kenpachi "for the simple reason" that they have "a Bankai and Kenpachi doesn't, Kenpachi would lose"..... no expression

They aren't captains, though. If they were to become captains, I'd say that they both would lose to Kenpachi. Well, depends. Renji may destroy Kenpachi with that blast thingie. But I don't see them beating Kenpachi, even with their bankais. Hell, some captains could beat Kenpachi with their Shikais. Byakuya(duh), Aizen(duh), Soi Fon(she's much faster than Kenpachi. Two strikes, he's gone), Mayuri(Mayuri was as fast as or faster than the genius level quincy. Plus, his shikai paralyzes upon contact. I don't see Kenpachi keeping up with a very fast captain AND using the quincy puppet technique that Ishida used), Yamamoto (duh), Ukitake(duh), and Sunshui(duh). Hell, that's most captains that could beat him in just Shikai form. erm

Now do you see why I said this?

Originally posted by jinzin
Seriously if you believe that then there must be an unopened bottle of subscription pills in your closet your doctor should know about.

Seriously. Most of your points have either been in direct contradiction to the manga, willfully missing my point about shit being PIS (CIS), or you making non sequitor arguments. Now you're making baseless ad hominem fallacies. This is not how you debate.



Originally posted by jinzin
This would be the same fight where he literally laughed off taking both of their full on Shikai attacks? The one where he parried both of their assualts at once and then batted them both away like children? That one?

Yeah, pull your head out of your ass.

Correct.

And Tousen made the vast majority of attacks.

Sajin made 2 attacks.

Once he did his shikai attack with that huge giant arm. Then, he did a regular sword strike at the same time with Tousen. Sajin's reiatesu was destroying the ground around him as he flexed it. That's on par with Kenpachi. On top of that, the databook puts them, correctly so, as equal offensive and strength. Sajin has better strength feats, though. (He didn't and probably couldn't knock away Sajin's sword. Instead, he flipped Sajin over like some sort of ninja. That's why Kenpachi is badass...not your lame fanboy reasons.)


Also, are you trying to indirectly imply that Ichigo was stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together? (At that time.)

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
K, how about this? All Kenny had to do was do what he did the entire fight and dodge Tousen's attack easily in response.

Doesn't work that way since Kenpachi had no idea about the ability yet tousen did. We know for a fact that Tousen had to train at least 10 years with his bankai to get it right, per Yoruichi's comment to Ichigo.




Originally posted by jinzin
Consistency and ability dictates Tousen's first strike was CIS at play on both sides, it's an argument that works both ways.

Sorry, doesn't work that way. Kenpachi had no idea what it was. Tousen did. Tousen said he was going to kill Kenpachi. The fact that he didn't slice off Kenpachi's head was PIS. (Yes, PIS.)

It is definitely not an argument that works both ways. You're making a very invalid non sequitor argument.





Originally posted by jinzin
No it was clearly not temporary which is why Ichigo was able to manifest Zangetsu during his Kenpachi fight and didn't need help to do so later on when he began his Bankai train---doh wait yes he did!

That's why Zangetsu has been able to manifest in every fight with Ichigo and help direct his actions and stop his wounds from blee--- wait no he hasn't.

They why Ichigo's pressure ALWAYS takes the form of a hollow mask when he's about to atta---- wait no it doesn't....

That's why Ichigo's hollow mask is always able to protect Ichigo from taking on serious woun--- wait that isn't right.

That's why Ichigo casually keeps fighting after his pulse has ceased to---wait didn't Inoue have to heal him last time that happened?

None of those are counters to my point:

Ichigo gets stronger every fight. Ever last one of your points was a strawman argument and commits the same exact logical fallacy that I just got done explaining to Nemebro. erm



Originally posted by jinzin
So every time Ichigo fights an opponent the opponent is stronger? Like when he fought Ikkaku and then fought Renji afterwards who hadn't yet mastered Bankai?... You mean like that?

I wouldn't say "every", but, pretty much.

We've got that Guard outside seireitei. Then Ikkaku, then Renji, then Kenpachi, then Byukuya, then Grimmjow, them Grimmjoww again (cept Ichigo is vizard form and grimmjow is released), then Ulq. That's how it works. Every one he fought was stronger than the last. I am not including those he tried to fight right after almost dying such as against Aizen and against #5 espada.

Originally posted by jinzin
Pffft.. how is that even a justification to assume that wasn't a temporary amp? Wanna talk about keeping up.


So, what this amounts to is you throwing a fit. If you want to get pedentic, sure, Ichigo doesn't get stronger EVERY fight. I was referring to his major fights. Try to keep up. Don't argue semantics just to be right. Actually argue the point.


If you think Ichigo is relatively the same strength he was against Kenpachi as he was against Byakuya, you're a retard.

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/16/

Sorry but that's just wrong =\

I disagree. Kenpachi didn't and couldn't push Sajin away. He flipped him like a wrestler.

And, are you trying to say that Ichigo was (at the time) stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together?

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
Thank God SOMEBODY else knows what I am saying, Jesus...

I wouldn't be grateful for his help, if I were you. He did a very poor job. You're doing 10 times better.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. No you didn't. Just gave your own "I don't like it, it didn't happen" views. Grimmjow being much stronger than Ichigo is not PIS, everyone else get boosted to that level is.

Cept, no. I don't like the fact that everyone was illogical boosted, not the boost itself. You yourself admitted that everyone got a PIS boost. I don't see what we are arguing about.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Lol, and where did you get this ignorant conclusion? Byakuya's Reiryoku higher than Kenny's my ass. As Jinzin so generously pointed out, Ganju and Hanataro were fine under Byakuya's pressure, Kenny's sealed pressure was too much to even bare.

Fail. Contradicts the manga. Your entire point can and will be thrown out. Any logic you apply is the result of PIS from the author.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, lol at Renji's sword...(edited for space)

So, yeah, you agree with me. no expression Cool.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. I agree there is PIS, it is what qualifies as PIS where our opinions differ.

Not really. Especially since your point #1 agrees with what I've pretty much been saying the whole damn time.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. erm Dude, if you are going to insult anyone's ability to read another's posts, make sure you are able to, it was so blatantly obvious I was talking about his ****ing eyepatch, Jesus Christ...

With all of the mistakes you've made, I'm allowed an understandable misinterpretation. I don't think of it as "sealed" or "unsealed". I think of it is "off" or "on" when it comes to the eye patch. In Bleach, sealed refers to zanpakutou. Forgive me for being logical?

Originally posted by NemeBro
We are not talking about the entire Bleach power continuity, which is indeed ****ed. We are talking about one character, Kenpachi. Whose feat of beating Nnoitra was more consistent than the fight with Ichigo.

I am. And in that continuity problem occurs a retardedly massive power amp for Kenpachi. He's a prime example of the PIS that I'm referring to.

Originally posted by NemeBro
5. No, you're just nowhere near as intelligent as your arrogance forces you to believe and are unable to even see my point. smile

Again with the personal insults? Ugh. Just take your licks like a man instead of getting personal about this shit.

Originally posted by NemeBro
6. No, him not killing him from the get-go is CIS, I grant you...Kind of like how Kenpachi did not just cut Ichigo's head off at the start of the fight with his power released...In fact, every Kenpachi fight has CIS that only detriments Kenny. So yeah.

Ummmmm. No.

Kenpachi's character enjoys fights. You can argue CIS semantics, but him not cutting off Ichigo's head from the begining was definitely not in within Kenpachi's character. He likes to enjoy his fights as much as possible. The bells and the eye patch are examples of this.

CIS, however, would greatly apply to a Tousen that failed to cut off Kenpachi's head, especially after giving us speeches about how disgusting Kenpachi was, how he wanted to kill him, etc.

Originally posted by NemeBro
...Sajin was going to destroy Kenpachi? What feats of Sajin do you base this on exactly? Him being manhandled by Kenpachi when they fought, or him having to use his Bankai to handle a mere Fraccion? Yeah, you're talking out of your ass, Sajin is the weakest captain by showings.

Simple: Sajin's bankai is between 5-10 times stronger than his Shikai. Kenpachi dodged the shikai attack. What makes you think he even stands a chance against the bankai if you doesn't want to get hit by the bankai samurai?

There's also the fact that the databook says they are equal in strength. Kenpachi is more agile, I'll give you that.

And it was a fraccion that defeated ikkaku. Ikkaku is almost captain level. erm

Your favorite espada's fraccion were stronger than some of the Espada themselves.

Originally posted by NemeBro
7. Kendo technique amounted to holding the sword with two hands, nothing more. It wasn't PIS, because it is more consistent with his previous showing. You ***** about PIS, but all it really amounts to is you denying what happened for what you would have WANTED to happen.

Hey, you can downplay the feat as much as you want. It was still a kendo technique that Kenpachi hated to use. You can take up the idiocy of it with Kubo.

And, the opposite appears true. You're the one b*tching about things you want to happen and I'm just stating what was PIS.

Originally posted by NemeBro
8. Lol, I guess that is why he beat Tousen with his Bankai, amirite? Sealed nontheless. Tousen should have decapitated him with the first hit, true...But using what characters should do, Kenny should have just released and killed Tousen from the start. CIS works both ways.

It does not work both ways. *facepalm*

Cept, no. Not taking off his eye patch is within Kenpachi's character. However, tousen is a cold and swift acting character. He cut grimmjow's arm off with out warning, which, btw, was also a PIS move.



Originally posted by NemeBro
9. Dude, if you ***** about that, you may as well ***** about every Bleach fight. Kenny could have killed Tousen start of the fight, FACT.

"Ummmmm. No.

Kenpachi's character enjoys fights. You can argue CIS semantics, but him not cutting off Ichigo's head from the begining was definitely not in within Kenpachi's character. He likes to enjoy his fights as much as possible. The bells and the eye patch are examples of this."

Originally posted by NemeBro
10. O RLY? So I guess that Ikkaku and Renji could beat Kenny too, huh? Despite the fact that Ikkaku sees Kenny as invincible, and impossible for him to beat? And stop referencing the ****ing databook as if it is worth a damn thing. Hitsugaya's overall stats are higher than Ukitake's, yet we know for a FACT that Ukitake is stronger. Kenny's are lower than both Tousen and Mayuri, but we know that Tousen lost to him and Mayuri is afraid of him.

As I said earlier, "They aren't captains, though."

And, you can throw the official databook out. That's fine. More fanboyism?

Originally posted by NemeBro
11. Lol.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/19/

Because Kenny clearly did not, effortlessly, and with one hand, block both of their blades, right? He clearly did not grab Komamura and manhandle him, right? Lol gtfo.

"are you trying to say that Ichigo was (at the time) stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together?"

And, Kenpachi used Sajin's strength and stance against him by throwing him. You'd have a point if he just knocked Sajin back, like he did to Ichigo. lol, your point fails. It only strengthened mine.

Originally posted by NemeBro
12. And Kenny could have killed both Tousen and Komamura at the start of the fight with his unsealed power, point?

1. He probably could not have killed either of them. I seem to recall Tousen getting the first strike against Kenpachi. Tousen drew first blood. And, Sajin did his huge shikai attack thing as a diversion for Tousen to quickly end the fight against Kenpachi. They didn't realize that Kenpachi was so durable.

2. That's not in his character. To put it in your words, "all it really amounts to is you denying what happened for what you would have WANTED to happen."

Originally posted by NemeBro
13. Ichigo had a temp amp when he beat Kenny, and his fight with Ichigo is less consistent than the one where he beat Nnoitra.

See, I don't get this. Kenpachi gradually added power to his fight with Espda #5, just the same as he did against Ichigo. If anything, that version of Ichigo should have been able to keep up with #5 just as well as Kenpachi up to #5's release. (Cept, I don't see that version of ichigo cutting #5 at all...agreed?)

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only he did, as I just showed you. He fought them both, was manhandling both, hell, he took Tousen's Shikai with no trouble at all.

Getting stabbed by several blades is hardly "no trouble at all." Those blades went in several inches. This is the difference between my fanboyism and yours: I like Kenpachi for tanking obviously bad wounds that would kill most people or greatly debilitate others.

Originally posted by NemeBro
When they got boosted to that level, it was inconsistent and PIS. When they stayed at that level, inconsistency stopped. You may not like it, but it happened and that is how it is.

I agree with the first part, not the second part, and I agree with that last part. 2/3 ain't bad.

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
14. All the "injuries" he sustained? So a little cut on his palm, a flesh wound on his cheek, a small cut on his forearm, and only one lethal stab to the chest, equal the large gash under Kenny's eye, and the two large cuts on Kenny's mid-section? Not to mention unlike Ichigo, Kenny's wounds were not closed up.

One wound was closed up. And the gash to Kenpachi's face is not as debilitating as as the gash to Ichigo's primary sword arm. This is hardly a small wound.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106742/17.jpg

Justa mere flesh wound, right? Looks like he came really damn close to getting his damn hand cut off.

But, now you're admitting I was right, so I guess I should be thankful.

Originally posted by NemeBro
15. Okay now, I know you're kind of slow, but try to bear with me, okay?

Ichigo had a few things happen for him during that amp, that have never happened again. Zangetsu was able to block his wounds is the first one, and that is before he received even more power from Zangetsu and was something he has never done again, Zangetsu was fighting totally in tandem with him, holding his sword with him, something that does not happen in every fight, if ever at all, and his aura manifested itself into his Hollow Mask. All of these never happened again. But...We have to assume this amp was permanent, right?

The evidence is in my favor, to deny this is to be a butthurt fanboy.

I know your slow but try to bear with me, okay?

Ichigo hadn't fully subjugated his zanpakutou yet. The materialization of zangetsu was only seen by Ichigo, so it wasn't a full subjugation yet, either. The swinging in tandem was a metaphor for Ichigo being one with his sword. GASPITY! A JAPANESE METAPHOR ABOUT BEING ONE WITH THE SWORD! NO WAY! laughing And, you idiot. If the "hallow mask" energy face means he was using his hallow powah, then so was Kenpachi...if we are to apply your broken logic.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. No, no he did not. I just read the whole fight, this never ****ing happened. He never adapted his Reitsu to Ichigo. Shut up with that shit.

Riiiiiight.

Booya, mother ****er:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106752/05.jpg

But, wait, some how, you're going to justify that the energy that is starting to come off of him in the previous two pages and this one showing him going apeshit, as not amping at all. K, fine. We're done with this point cause you're definitely wrong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
17. And you once again miss my point again. For someone who is apparently so intelligent and awesome, you sure are slow, huh?

Dude...this is weird as ****. Y-you.

I-I.

I'm speechless. This level of idiocy is your aboslute highest. (Not lowest...think about it.)
I just pwned your ass hardcore with your own words...and now you counter with saying, "oooooh man. You're sooo stupid. You missed my point again."

Instead of completely dodging your own self pwnage, just post, "awwww ****. Kind of screwed myself there, didn't I?"



Originally posted by NemeBro
I had to split my post because it was too long.

Thanks for letting us know. thumb up

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Kenpachi didn't and couldn't push Sajin away. He flipped him like a wrestler.

And, are you trying to say that Ichigo was (at the time) stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together?

Well unlike you guys i won't say i know because i don't. But just as i see it. The only thing that makes sense to me is that after Ichigo's inner battle with his Hollow from that moment onward in the fight he was fighting with his resolve turned up high. (Just to clarify, during the Kenpachi vs Ichigo fight)

From my perspective Byakuya is physically weaker in terms of brute strength than Kenpachi and the battle data also says that to be true if you consider it accurate. Yet Ichigo and Byakuya seem to be on about the same strength level when they fight every time after the Kenpachi fight. Which doesn't make sense if you consider the Kenpachi fight, and like me if you consider Kenpachi to be stronger.

To get to the point the reason i think Kenpachi is stronger than Sajin is simply because he was able to take not only his attack but another enemy of captain level too simultaneously and stop them dead. Both of them seemly truly surprised at this, so i am lend to believe they were not holding back.


To answer your question, no i do not believe that to be true. Perhaps if Ichigo's resolve was as strong as it can be.... i think it's possible, but normally? two words; Hell no.

But that's just me and how i perceive it ;p

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Well unlike you guys i won't say i know because i don't. But just as i see it. The only thing that makes sense to me is that after Ichigo's inner battle with his Hollow from that moment onward in the fight he was fighting with his resolve turned up high. (Just to clarify, during the Kenpachi vs Ichigo fight)

From my perspective Byakuya is physically weaker in terms of brute strength than Kenpachi and the battle data also says that to be true if you consider it accurate. Yet Ichigo and Byakuya seem to be on about the same strength level when they fight every time after the Kenpachi fight. Which doesn't make sense if you consider the Kenpachi fight, and like me if you consider Kenpachi to be stronger.

To get to the point the reason i think Kenpachi is stronger than Sajin is simply because he was able to take not only his attack but another enemy of captain level too simultaneously and stop them dead. Both of them seemly truly surprised at this, so i am lend to believe they were not holding back.


To answer your question, no i do not believe that to be true. Perhaps if Ichigo's resolve was as strong as it can be.... i think it's possible, but normally? two words; Hell no.

But that's just me and how i perceive it ;p

This is why you're sexy. Even when I get pwned by you, you still do it elegantly.

So, yeah, I agree. I don't see Ichigo being stronger than those two. And, I only see Kenpachi using Sajin's strength against him by flipping him. I would put their strength close.

Another question....does reiryoku directly or indirectly translate to physical strength?

Another way to state that...which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Lemme expand on that: does one get more physical strength from reiryoku, or does increasing physical strength through training increase reiryoku? This, of course, assumes that the two are related. The databook would inidcate otherwise as Byakuya is obviously really strong, but not as strong as Kenpachi or Sajin...but he still has more reiryoku than most captains.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
This is why you're sexy. Even when I get pwned by you, you still do it elegantly.

So, yeah, I agree. I don't see Ichigo being stronger than those two. And, I only see Kenpachi using Sajin's strength against him by flipping him. I would put their strength close.

Another question....does reiryoku directly or indirectly translate to physical strength?

Another way to state that...which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Lemme expand on that: does one get more physical strength from reiryoku, or does increasing physical strength through training increase reiryoku? This, of course, assumes that the two are related. The databook would inidcate otherwise as Byakuya is obviously really strong, but not as strong as Kenpachi or Sajin...but he still has more reiryoku than most captains.


Hahah, only sometimes dear ;p

Yes, i can see what you mean, that flip does seem like the typical wrestlers move to use ones own strength against him.

I do not know. I would assume it does simply because of Aizen being able to stong Ichigo's blade with a finger. I mean, Ichigo is very muscular. So it would have to, to atleast a small extent i should thing. This would explain how people with powerful reiryoku/reiatsu usually overpower those who have weaker reiryoku/reiatsu.

I personally would suspect it's about translation. Just because you have so much reiryoku/reiatsu does not mean you are able to use it all so effectively in one area. Byakuya is a very balanced fighter, so it makes sense he's not as 'strong' as Sajin or Kenpachi.

Just an idea that last one, but so much of bleach is unexplained all we can do is call it as we see it.




To answer my own thread, no clue, but it would be a fight to see =)

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Hahah, only sometimes dear ;p

Yes, i can see what you mean, that flip does seem like the typical wrestlers move to use ones own strength against him.

I do not know. I would assume it does simply because of Aizen being able to stong Ichigo's blade with a finger. I mean, Ichigo is very muscular. So it would have to, to atleast a small extent i should thing. This would explain how people with powerful reiryoku/reiatsu usually overpower those who have weaker reiryoku/reiatsu.

I personally would suspect it's about translation. Just because you have so much reiryoku/reiatsu does not mean you are able to use it all so effectively in one area. Byakuya is a very balanced fighter, so it makes sense he's not as 'strong' as Sajin or Kenpachi.

Just an idea that last one, but so much of bleach is unexplained all we can do is call it as we see it.




To answer my own thread, no clue, but it would be a fight to see =)


K. And that explanation makes sense. Indeed, Byakuya would be a good example of someone using their reiryoku efficiently.


And, from what we can see, Kido is a very powerful tool. That's why Byakuya is rated so high in the databook: fast, strong, can use high level kido, has lots of reiryoku, etc.





To bring it back down to the real point of the thread, how about we rate Ichigo against the other captian's score as they appear in the databook?

And, btw, which Ichigoare we using again? Is it the tailed hallow ichigo, or the hallow ichigo that started to beat down Byakuya? I forgot what you said.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
K. And that explanation makes sense. Indeed, Byakuya would be a good example of someone using their reiryoku efficiently.


And, from what we can see, Kido is a very powerful tool. That's why Byakuya is rated so high in the databook: fast, strong, can use high level kido, has lots of reiryoku, etc.





To bring it back down to the real point of the thread, how about we rate Ichigo against the other captian's score as they appear in the databook?

And, btw, which Ichigoare we using again? Is it the tailed hallow ichigo, or the hallow ichigo that started to beat down Byakuya? I forgot what you said.


It's the only thing i can think of that would make some kind of sense. But it could be I'm drawing lines where there are none. As someone in here said it could just be Tibo making things up as he does along ^^' but i prefer not to think that ;p


Well that's a good question. To be honest i wouldn't have a clue. I guess through comparison with other characters it could be decided. But that might be too vague to use even if we did calculate it ;p


I said both, but unless Kenpachi uses two hands he won't stand a chance against the Lizard due to the instant regeneration. But that's not really what i had intended.

So just the one that fought Byakuya.

Here's an observation i made just now. Which is the Ichigo that fought Byakuya is (or so we can assume) the version which Ichigo fought in his inner world for dominance during the vizard training.

Ichigo when his resolve was absolute beat that Hollow. So if we then assume This hollow Ichigo, however strong, is weaker than Ichigo whose resolve is strong, then it seems to me this is indeed a good match =) Considering in my opinion i would rate Hollow Ichigo more skillful than normal ichigo. The fight between the two proves it for me ^^

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ichigo when his resolve was absolute beat that Hollow. So if we then assume This hollow Ichigo, however strong, is weaker than Ichigo whose resolve is strong, then it seems to me this is indeed a good match =) Considering in my opinion i would rate Hollow Ichigo more skillful than normal ichigo. The fight between the two proves it for me ^^

So, you're saying that Ichigo's inner hallow is more skillful than regular ichigo...as evidenced by his pwnage against Byakuya, right?


Going by that, we do know that regular ichigo beat that hallow in his mind.



About all of that:

All forms are Ichigo, though. They are different manifestions of Ichigo's personality. From Zangetsu, to hallow Ichigo, to Ichigo himself. Zangetsu is just an extension of his very own soul. Just different parts of himself. It's all....kind of....crazy. I can't put it any other way. They are all part of ichigo's soul. It's really weird. It means that every shinigami has mental problems with distinct personalities. I remember talking to Nemebro about this along time ago. The fact that their personality can be broken down into any more than one ego means they have schizophrenia. This means that every single shinigami and Stark have some form of schizophrenia.

Subjugating one's zanpakutou is really just a metaphor for gaining confidence and skill. It's not literally subjugating an entity that is wholly separate away from the shinigami.

I hate to use this as an example, but think of it in terms of horcruxes from harry potter, cept without the evilness involved with having separate pieces of your soul.


It's like Kubo wanted to create avatars, pokemon, or digimon for his charcters, but without making it seem so kiddie.

Demonic Phoenix
^ More than one personality would be DID (Dissociative identity disorder), not Schizophrenia.

It's hard to define it as personality though, or as anything for that matter. Zangetsu could be the 'physical' embodiment of Ichigo's shinigami reiryoku. Meh. Hollow Ichigo seems to be a completely different entity, akin to a parasite using a host for survival.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
So, you're saying that Ichigo's inner hallow is more skillful than regular ichigo...as evidenced by his pwnage against Byakuya, right?


Going by that, we do know that regular ichigo beat that hallow in his mind.



About all of that:

All forms are Ichigo, though. They are different manifestions of Ichigo's personality. From Zangetsu, to hallow Ichigo, to Ichigo himself. Zangetsu is just an extension of his very own soul. Just different parts of himself. It's all....kind of....crazy. I can't put it any other way. They are all part of ichigo's soul. It's really weird. It means that every shinigami has mental problems with distinct personalities. I remember talking to Nemebro about this along time ago. The fact that their personality can be broken down into any more than one ego means they have schizophrenia. This means that every single shinigami and Stark have some form of schizophrenia.

Subjugating one's zanpakutou is really just a metaphor for gaining confidence and skill. It's not literally subjugating an entity that is wholly separate away from the shinigami.

I hate to use this as an example, but think of it in terms of horcruxes from harry potter, cept without the evilness involved with having separate pieces of your soul.


It's like Kubo wanted to create avatars, pokemon, or digimon for his charcters, but without making it seem so kiddie.


Yes, and no, but more yes. I refer to the time the Hollow pointed out most of Ichigo's moves are just a rip off of his. That Ichigo was only a 'pathetic fake' if i remember correctly. Besides, you see how he fought Muramasa? he got defeated but not through lack of skill that's for sure.



I prefer to distinguish a different between normal Ichigo and Ichigo which a strong resolve, as the power difference between them is large.



I can see how this conclusion has been come to, yet i also disagree. I think they are separate entities from their Shinigami. The reason being purely on Hitsugaya's sword. It is said to appear every 100 years, or 1000. I realise the movie is none canon but it does attempt to make a point as to exactly what Zanpactou are. As i see it, Zanpactou are recurring spirits who appear in shinigami. Why, how, i don't know, i don't even think the likely hood of this is remotely high. But it's how i see it, and it makes the most sense which doesn't make them all seem crazy ;p

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yes, and no, but more yes. I refer to the time the Hollow pointed out most of Ichigo's moves are just a rip off of his. That Ichigo was only a 'pathetic fake' if i remember correctly. Besides, you see how he fought Muramasa? he got defeated but not through lack of skill that's for sure.



I prefer to distinguish a different between normal Ichigo and Ichigo which a strong resolve, as the power difference between them is large.



I can see how this conclusion has been come to, yet i also disagree. I think they are separate entities from their Shinigami. The reason being purely on Hitsugaya's sword. It is said to appear every 100 years, or 1000. I realise the movie is none canon but it does attempt to make a point as to exactly what Zanpactou are. As i see it, Zanpactou are recurring spirits who appear in shinigami. Why, how, i don't know, i don't even think the likely hood of this is remotely high. But it's how i see it, and it makes the most sense which doesn't make them all seem crazy ;p

Yeah, Gin said that Toshiro was a shinigami that was born once a century. No doubt that Gin was indirectly complimenting himself because just 100 years prior, Gin made a similar "genius" feat through the academy. But his zanpakutou...I'm not sure about that. I don't remember it saying anywhere in the manga that his zanpakutou was born once a century in a shinigami. That couldn't be possible unless the owner dies repeatedly with new reicarnations. The case with Yamamoto...his zanpakutou has existed for at least 2000 years. At least. That's how long ago he founded the school. They say it has the highest attack power....so, it is very unlikely that they mean it is reborn every s often. Agreed? It just means that it has the highest attack power. Same with Rukia: Toshiro's zanpakutou's powers are obviously greater in ability when compared to Rukia's...because they are both ice based.

But, yeah, I don't REALLY think they are all schizophrenic. I was being a tad facetious there when I said that. And, yes, they are literally separate physical entities such as in the case of subjugating them for the purposes of bankai. But, imo, they are more like horcruxes separate pieces of the whole soul.


So, going by this. Someone who is a master of everything about their soul, such as Yamamoto, would basically be sort of like Nirvana for them. lol Reaching complete control over every aspect of their personality and thoughts. This could be why Yamamoto's zanpakutou didn't go along with muramasa's technique of tricking and controlling zanpakutou....Yamamoto had complete mastery over his.

Demonic Phoenix
Dude, if most shinigami had Schizophrenia, Aizen wouldn't need his shikai at all stick out tongue.

EvilAngel
It was in Diamond Dust Rebellion. Because one sword chose two Shinigami, but that wasn't allowed, so they had to fight for it, and ultimately to the death.

I really can't recall clearly enough, i would have to watch it again.

As i say it's unlikely, but i prefer that over thinking they're all crazy ;p

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
It was in Diamond Dust Rebellion. Because one sword chose two Shinigami, but that wasn't allowed, so they had to fight for it, and ultimately to the death.

I really can't recall clearly enough, i would have to watch it again.

As i say it's unlikely, but i prefer that over thinking they're all crazy ;p


Yeah, I haven't seen diamond dust rebellion. It seems, though, that he writers took zanpakutou's out of context. They are actually part of the shinigami's soul and not actually a wholly separate sentient being.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, I haven't seen diamond dust rebellion. It seems, though, that he writers took zanpakutou's out of context. They are actually part of the shinigami's soul and not actually a wholly separate sentient being.

Yes they are a part of their Shinigami's soul. But within that soul they are seperate entities. Think of them as only able to exist within those souls. But when that person dies, it is not the end of them, they can reappear in another person soul given great time.

Or something like that. Atleas that's why Diamond Dust Rebellion would have us believe, which i choose to follow ;p

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yes they are a part of their Shinigami's soul. But within that soul they are seperate entities. Think of them as only able to exist within those souls. But when that person dies, it is not the end of them, they can reappear in another person soul given great time.

Or something like that. Atleas that's why Diamond Dust Rebellion would have us believe, which i choose to follow ;p


AHHH!


Well, reincarnation is not new to Eastern culture, so that's believable. Instead of the whole soul being reborn, it is a certain aspect of that soul. I can buy that.

jinzin
Originally posted by dadudemon
It is true the Kenpachi held back against Ichigo UNTIL he took his patch off and put everything he had into their final strike. Ichigo had a mortal wound. From what we could see, Kenpachi did not have any mortal wounds. He had some nice Gashes and a deep wound on his left upper body, but nothing mortal like Ichigo's wound.

Mortal wounds? He took over a dozen blows from a sword like Zangetstu, he was cut on both sides of his neck at the base of his shoulders and took a shot striaght through his face. At the very LEAST he took enough damage to equate several mortal wounds before removing his eyepatch. Anyone other than Kenny would have been done for. Even Ikkaku got obliterated by 1 shot like what Kenny was taking.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to argue the two handed sword strike, that's cool. Kenpachi didn't think of that until his fight with #5. Had he done that, he would have cut Ichigo in half. That IS what I'm arguing. I don't think he was holding back his spiritual pressure, he just wasn't using anywhere near his peak physical strength.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Kenpachi did not fight Sajin and Tousen at once. He really fought Tousen 98% of the time with Sajin only preventing the killing blow.

Yeah he did, nay-say all you like doesn't change the fact that he held them both off at once using shikais and then forced them into using bankai.
The only time he focused on Tousen was after his bankai release, for obvious reasons doesn't change what happened before.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to go by Anime feats, cool. That just makes it even more PIS. If you want to say that Kenpachi is physically stronger than Sajin, then I call BS on feats alone. Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi with his Bankai. Tousen could have easily killed Kenpachi with his Bankai. Kenpachi certainly could not beat either of those two captains, even with his PIS win against #5.

What feats?
In both the anime AND the Manga Kenpachi parries a two handed strike from both Tousen AND Sajin who were putting their full body weights into it, holding his sword with one hand. confused
And, Kenpachi still did this with his eyepactch on, covered in wounds from Ichigo from 3 days earlier, and having just taken the full on Shikai attacks of both captains.... How on earth you can possibly draw yourself to the conclussion that Kamamura is well beyond me, but please do tell I'd love to know, especially given that Kenny was the one to cut through the toughest Hierro of the Espada.

Likewise, prove your case that Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi.. please.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Tousen could have easily killed Kenpachi with his Bankai. Kenpachi certainly could not beat either of those two captains, even with his PIS win against #5. Tousen TRIED to kill Kenpachi with his bankai, and failed utterly... Kenpachi could not beat either of those two captains? He DID... he beat one using his bankai to the point that he literally began to walk away from the fight because it ceased to amuse him. confused
What the f**k?

"I don't like it, it didn't happen".


Originally posted by dadudemon
Your claim that Ichigo used his hallow powers against Kenpachi are not completely unfounded as Yuroichi did find his mask on him after she rescued him. Fact is, both Ichigo and Kenpachi would have died without aid. Both passed out and both could not stand.
No the point is, that Kenpachi was STILL holding back 1/2 his true power while Ichigo was going all out and had backup from two seperate sources.

jinzin
Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, I forgot to mention on my last post: you said something about hallow ichigo being part of that fight based on the energy face seen behind ichigo.

By that faulty logic, then Kenpachi was using his hallow powers too. no expression In what way is that logic faulty?
Given that Tousen seems to think Kenpachi's some sort of oni, that may very well be true. Point?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I posted the scan where it was said "as high as or higher" than Kenpachi. You can claim whatever you want, I'm sticking to the manga. no expression Since your scan doesn't actually show up it's hard to tell what you're talking about.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to argue about something that you're clearly wrong about, that's fine. I wont' continue it. The mere fact that he goes on to say that Byakuya being the strongest head of the four noble families, EVER, should be evidence enough of his strength. erm

Is Kenpachi of the four noble families? No..... Okay point?
You may as well say he's as strong as all the Espada based on that "faulty logic"...


Originally posted by dadudemon
A berserker does not fight intelligently.
And Kenny's far from a sheer berserker, so once again, your point?
Kenny simply enjoys fighting, this doesn't preclude that he can think in a fight. Especially when he used his fighting intelligence to own Tousen.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You are also using Wiki too much. Because of the reference to his observation on Gin and Tousen? Hardly... it's true.
Given that you're aware of where that's from I think we can at this point just conclude that you're a hypocrite. no expression


Originally posted by dadudemon
We have slight intelligence from him: Using his reflexes to prevent himself from getting a mortal wound, and remembering his kendo training in a fight that he was about to get killed in. Other than that, nothing he has done in a fight was anymore intelligent than just using his reiryoku, reietsu, and strength that seems to be natural to him. He said that he didn't like to use tricks like that kendo one. He shies away from tricks.
Exactly, he shies away from tricks/intelligence/selling out, it doesn't dictate that he's not an intelligent fighter though.

Example: Kenpachi accurately figures that Gin left Ichigo alive on purpose outside the front gate of the Seretei.
Accurately assesses that Ichigo and Renji are in combat halfway across the Seretei.
In the anime pinpoints Ichinose's position and figures out who was infiltrating the Seretei when everyone else had a mass issue doing so.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, I'd say absurdly faster. Much much faster.

But, get this, Kenpachi was able to keep up with #5 because he's so strong that he doesn't HAVE to use shunpu. His legs are able to make him go fast. no expression This is another reason Kenpachi is my fave...he's just a f***ing hoss.
I already know that. The guy runs long distance alongside bullet trains, he memics flash step he moves so fast.

But nonsense, Byakuya's not "absurdly faster" or "much much faster" than Kenpachi.
Kenpachi was able to practically teleport on Ichigo during their fight twice, at a point that Ichigo claimed he could read all of Byakuya's movements.
In the Anime, Kenny EASILY contends with Ichinose's shunpo who by all appearances seemed to have Ichigo at his mercy in a flash step contest.
He was able to cover a mass distance to save Ichigo before he got hammered by Telsa, appearing seemingly out of nowhere even though they were surrounded by a desert.
And finally able to keep up with Sonido against Nnoitra

Byakuya couldn't outmatch the speed of a SEVERLY wounded Ichigo who had just been fighting Kenpachi, possibly less than an hour before hand. How in the hell is he "much much faster"..... If you're talking about his Zenbanzakura, that's a totally different story.


Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that's incorrect. Reread chapter 144. It broke ON him. Byakuya's spiritual pressure was so great and Renji so debilitated that Renji lost that ability to even cut Byakuya anymore.

Since we know for a fact that Byakuya's spiritual power is as large as or greater than Kenpachi's, we know that this is really what happened, not your botched up bastard interpretation.

Still looks like he hit him with the stump of his blade, doesn't really matter either way though. Given the fact that Renji's Zanpactou quite literally disintigrated in his hands it really doesn't come off anywhere near as impressive as what Kenny did.


Originally posted by dadudemon
His zanpakutou is already in it's released state. Regardless of what stuff was made up in the anime, it was stated in the manga that Ichigo and Kenpachi both have constantly released zanpakutou. That's the end of that.
just giving some food for though. But no, it's not the "end of the that" until we know for sure... lest you think you can chalk Kenny's sword being released up to another plot-hole.. Tell me, how the hell can Kenny use his released state if he doesn't even know it's name?
That's the difference between him and Ichigo and it draws things into serious discrepency.

Originally posted by dadudemon
His CIS, as you put it, is the cause of PIS, which is Tousen swearing he was going to kill Kenpachi, then not doing it in the first strike. How is that not utterly retarded? That was fully within his capability. Just as I asked before, was Tousen just trying to torture Kenpachi? That's not like Tousen's character to do that. It's just plain jane PIS.
Since the plot calls for Tousen to lose the fight, him giving problems to Kenpachi is what's PIS....

It was CIS that was influencing both sides of the fight.
Tousen's was that he didn't kill Kenny in the first strike, Kenny's was that he didn't just remove his eyepatch and blow Tousen's Bankai like he did Ichinose's.... AS WELL AS him being distracted and unfocused enough by Tousen's Bankai reveal to allow Tousen to land that first blow in the first place...

Kenny a character praised by the 13 court guard squad as on of the best in sheer fighting ability, and one who berrates others for losing focus during a fight, and who's focus on the fight is so great that Myori asserts not to interfere in his fights.....

LOST HIS FOCUS enough to be hit by a strike that he was shown consistently and repeatedily capible of avoiding....

Yeah not PIS, you just don't like it.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Again, it wasn't really a 2 versus 1 match. Tousen pretty much did the whole thing solo.
After bankai, not before... stop ignoring half the damned fight.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And he handed that Fraccion his ass. That Fraccion also beat a character that is approaching captain level. (Ikkaku)
Only because Ikkaku himself refused to release his Bankai, Kenny one shotted a Fraccion with one blow without even taking his eyepatch off.

Originally posted by dadudemon
PIS (or CIS, as you put it) certainly cannot account for the logical fact that IF Tousen was really trying to kill Kenpachi and not dick around, he would have chopped his head off, first thing. That was my point.
Which is easily refuted when you consider that Kenpachi was more than capible of avoiding the blow when he focused on the fight and not the distraction of the Bankai to begin with.
Whic is easily countered when you consider that if Kenpachi wasn't dicking around he would have removed his eyepatch, powered up, used Kendo and utterly obliterated Tousen's Bonkai anyways.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Kenpachi doesn't stand a chance against any Bankai, if there is no sort of CIS involved. (I like this CIS. CIS is the cause of PIS, sometimes, but I think I'll start using the two initialisms. hehe!)
Which is why he did so against Tousen.
Against the previous squad 11 Captain.
And why he straight killled a released state Espada... okay.. "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

Originally posted by dadudemon
Now now. Watch the personal insults.

For someone to willfully over look the point I made and then say what you just did above is ignorance. However, you DIDN'T miss my point, you commented on it, and later you said what you did just above. That's worse than ignorance. no expression

Simply following your fine example hypocrite.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you think for an instant that Kenpachi stands a chance against any captain's bankai, CIS aside, you're just another blind fanboy.
Might as well label Tite Kubo a fanboy then. erm

Kenpachi has already beaten 2 Captains who used Bankai to against him, and an Espada's Released state. CIS played more against Kenny than Tousen in their fight. Honeslty... stop this nonsense.

Originally posted by dadudemon
They aren't captains, though. If they were to become captains, I'd say that they both would lose to Kenpachi. Well, depends. Renji may destroy Kenpachi with that blast thingie. But I don't see them beating Kenpachi, even with their bankais.


I will then take this as your concession that Bankai doesn't = Victory with Kenpachi.....

Concession accepted, so drop that nonsense.

jinzin
Originally posted by dadudemon
Hell, some captains could beat Kenpachi with their Shikais. Byakuya(duh), Uh, no... Byakuya failed to beat a sealed Renji with his Shikai, but you think he's gonna beat Kenpachi? GTFO.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Aizen(duh), Not really a typical captain is he.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Soi Fon(she's much faster than Kenpachi. Two strikes, he's gone),
Again with this 'much faster" crap. Get that outa here! Kenny's already proven fast enough to keep up with flash step and sonido on expert levels.
And you're completely assuming this based on Soifon hitting Kenpachi as needed before being taken out of a fight. Given that Tousen failed to do as much in a fight where Kenpachi had all his senses removed, what chance does Soifon have?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mayuri(Mayuri was as fast as or faster than the genius level quincy. Plus, his shikai paralyzes upon contact. I don't see Kenpachi keeping up with a very fast captain AND using the quincy puppet technique that Ishida used),
Same as above.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yamamoto (duh), Ukitake(duh), and Sunshui(duh). Hell, that's most captains that could beat him in just Shikai form. erm
All of these are up for debate....
hell, shunsui's shikai isn't even really granting him an advantage after his opponent figures out the rules. erm


But all you're doing for Soifon and Myori, is giving them the benefit of the doubt and robbing Kenny of his.
Given his fighting ability he's more likely to land first blood, assuming he's not messing around.
You're relying on a misconception that they are much faster than Kenny in combat when nothing of the sort has been proven true. Likewise Kenny could Slice either of their heads off with one blow without eyepatch removal OR Kendo. erm

Originally posted by dadudemon
Now do you see why I said this?


No I don't... since it's not true.. And infact proven false several times in the series already.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Seriously. Most of your points have either been in direct contradiction to the manga,

No.. that's what you've been doing Mr. "Kenny never fought both captains at once, he can't beat someone using Bankai etc etc..

Originally posted by dadudemon
willfully missing my point about shit being PIS (CIS),
PIS is entirely subjective to the reader which is why it can be argued both ways. I ignore your claims to PIS because 1) you call PIS on so many things and 2) Because they're not actually things influenced by PIS but CIS.
I care about facts, not your preferences.


Originally posted by dadudemon
or you making non sequitor arguments. Now you're making baseless ad hominem fallacies. This is not how you debate.
It was obviously a joke to make my point more effective about you ignoring facts.
It's a better method than the one you use which is essentially a grown up version of a "Nu-uh" argument, only one that's filled with ten dollar words, little substance, and the occassional red herrings when you don't have anything tangible to cling to.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Correct.

And Tousen made the vast majority of attacks.

Sajin made 2 attacks.

Once he did his shikai attack with that huge giant arm. Then, he did a regular sword strike at the same time with Tousen. Sajin's reiatesu was destroying the ground around him as he flexed it. That's on par with Kenpachi.
The same pressure that's caused massive shockwaves with one strike while not even powered up or without his eyepatch?
That's on par with Kenpachi? Really.. The same pressure that devestated Ichinose's released state with a flex?
How about some proof or example to this statement other than your bias opinion?

Originally posted by dadudemon
On top of that, the databook puts them, correctly so, as equal offensive and strength. Sajin has better strength feats, though. (He didn't and probably couldn't knock away Sajin's sword. Instead, he flipped Sajin over like some sort of ninja. That's why Kenpachi is badass...not your lame fanboy reasons.)
Databook fails to impress when it's constantly contradicted by the source material, you should head over the comic forums and ask how reliable to handbooks are. roll eyes (sarcastic)

In what blue hell has Sajin proven stronger? When he got stopped by a one handed parry from Kenpachi or when he got manhandled and tossed aside.
Christ it wasn't even a judo toss, he just grabbed Sajin and chucked him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, are you trying to indirectly imply that Ichigo was stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together? (At that time.)
I'm going to assume you mean when Ichigo beat Kenpachi?
Yes, without a doubt Ichigo was more powerful then them in spiritual pressure this should be obvious. C'mon, before his temporary amp up he was stronger than Ikkaku or Renji and both of them are around captain level, and that was before he even built himself up enough to cut Kenny. Several men near captain level are not even on the level needed to cut kenny.

NemeBro
Kenny has not a chance in hell of beating Yamamoto, Shunsui, or Ukitake, even with Shikai (Although I have my doubts on Ukitake).

Kenny and Ichigo also have Zanpakuto that are always released, because their spiritual energies are that enormous, Kenpachi directly said this.

Dadudemon, I may answer your post later...Or not. I don't really feel like typing that much again.

jinzin
Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenny has not a chance in hell of beating Yamamoto, Shunsui, or Ukitake, even with Shikai (Although I have my doubts on Ukitake).

Kenny and Ichigo also have Zanpakuto that are always released, because their spiritual energies are that enormous, Kenpachi directly said this.

Dadudemon, I may answer your post later...Or not. I don't really feel like typing that much again.
Yamamoto probably not. Unohana I doubt he'd beat either (going by implications at least)

Shunsui or Ukitake using shikai... I think is entirely left up to debate against an all out Kenny.

Shunshui even said something along the lines of his Shikai being dangerous to himself, so it's just a matter of who's better at taking advantage of the rules at play.

EvilAngel
Holy crap Jizin O.o

jinzin
Originally posted by dadudemon
Doesn't work that way since Kenpachi had no idea about the ability yet tousen did. We know for a fact that Tousen had to train at least 10 years with his bankai to get it right, per Yoruichi's comment to Ichigo.
Uh, yeah... it does as I already talked about.

Kenny dodging Tousen's attacks even without his senses, is the standard, not the exception.

Tousen hitting him was due to CIS, CIS affected both only it affected kenny more as he didn't even try to take his patch off. no expression



Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorry, doesn't work that way. Kenpachi had no idea what it was. Tousen did. Tousen said he was going to kill Kenpachi. The fact that he didn't slice off Kenpachi's head was PIS. (Yes, PIS.)
Yeah that's what he said, but the PLOT dictated Tousen to give Kenny a challenge before he lost. That he did something which was contradicted multiple times later is a plot device not the other way around. CIS was at play here, not PIS, and it affected Kenny more.


Originally posted by dadudemon
It is definitely not an argument that works both ways. You're making a very invalid non sequitor argument.
Uh, no. This has EVERYTHING to do with the argument at hand.

You think Tousen able to take advantage of a surprised Kenny dictates Kenny's ability to beat his Bankai.
You think Kenny was less affected by CIS than Tousen when he was the one holding more back in that fight.
You think that Tousen cutting Kenpachi with that first strike was a testament to his advantage over Kenny in combat even though it was discredited almost immediately after, and done so multiple times.. You're ignoring what you don't like, CIS played both parties, simple as. And yeah, it DOES work that way since CIS is applicable to both characters and unlike PIS is not relative to our subjections.


Originally posted by dadudemon
None of those are counters to my point:

Your point?!

Your point was that it was a permanent power-up even though everything about that scene dictates otherwise. So yeah, they were counters to that point. Way to follow along. wink

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ichigo gets stronger every fight. Ever last one of your points was a strawman argument and commits the same exact logical fallacy that I just got done explaining to Nemebro. erm


Please tell me this logical fallacy that's being used here.

Ichigo gets stronger after every fight, sure. No one said he didn't... What we're saying is that Ichigo's CONSISTENT level of strength isn't what it was while he was fighting Kenpachi.

Did Ichigo get stronger after that fight? Sure he did. Was it to a degree that you can jusitfy saying that his level of strength was consistently where it was when he fought Kenpachi and that is wasn't a temorary flux? Hell no.
And everything I said was a reason for why.

Fact is, as I already stated Ichigo's powers are all. over. the. place.

It's why he was able to reel back a Menos, and stop it's cero, but get beat up by an officer at 1/5 power like Renji, THEN backhand him into the air like a ragdoll.

It's why he was able to beat Ikkaku with little relative trouble, but then fought an almost losing battle with Renji, Ikkaku's student.

It's why he was stronger than Ulq for a moment, and then got curbed by Yammi, almost immediately after owning Yammi.

Why he's able to do things like scar Grimmjow after he had been no-sold the entire fight beforehand.

And there's even more examples than that. He was simply at the peak of one of his fluxes, and then that was compounded by two sources aiding him in the fight.
His performance there has not been matched since and for you to continue arguing otherwise is to simply ignore that Ichigo couldn't handle an espada of the 6th level using Bankai on 3 seperate occassions, nevermind Shikai, which he would have had to have done to match the level of power he was at while fighting Kenpachi, the man who was fighting the 5th to a standstill before his eyepatch came off. erm


Originally posted by dadudemon
I wouldn't say "every", but, pretty much.

We've got that Guard outside seireitei. Then Ikkaku, then Renji, then Kenpachi, then Byukuya, then Grimmjow, them Grimmjoww again (cept Ichigo is vizard form and grimmjow is released), then Ulq. That's how it works. Every one he fought was stronger than the last. I am not including those he tried to fight right after almost dying such as against Aizen and against #5 espada.
Yet.

Kisuke>Renji - he fought Kisuke first.
Ikkaku (Presumably)> Renji - He fought Ikkaku first.
Grimmjow<Ulq - He fought Grimm then Ulq, then Grimm again.

Fact is almost everyone of his fight performances proves that he's bouncing all around the scale, simply that the center of his scale is slowly going upwards which is why he showings have been becoming consistently stronger looking but all over the place all the same.



Originally posted by dadudemon
So, what this amounts to is you throwing a fit. If you want to get pedentic, sure, Ichigo doesn't get stronger EVERY fight. I was referring to his major fights. Try to keep up. Don't argue semantics just to be right. Actually argue the point.
lol, not sure what part about that you define as the "fit" but if that's any indication of your comprehensive abilities I'd say I'm beginning to understand why you're arguing the way you are.

Major fights to the plot or to his life? Because you know Kisuke WAS trying to kill him, as was ulq.

I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing facts. Fact is he fights opponents with varying levels of power and displays that his own power level varies. At any rate... at ANY rate.... You can't argue that the powerup he had against Kenpachi was a permenant one PERIOD. You can try but there's so many inconsistencies in trying to prove that, that the argument does nothing but fall to pieces at the seams which, I'm betting, is why you're so apt to cling to your excuses of PIS and such.


Originally posted by dadudemon
If you think Ichigo is relatively the same strength he was against Kenpachi as he was against Byakuya, you're a retard.
Well I don't so I guess I don't have to worry huh.

Nice little strawman though....

Basically all I see from you are glorified Nu-uh arguments, and that's when you're not just making up your own conclussions pulled straight out your backside. When you want to debate with the facts maybe we can continue this, as it stands your grdaeschool attempts to discredit empiracle evidence are pretty atrocious and if you focused half as much on the evidence as you do hitting on Angel maybe you would have half a leg to stand on....


Ichigo's as strong as Kenpachi using Shikai when he fought Grimmjow, he just lost HORRIBLY using Bankai, because he wanted to make things interesting right? That's what YOUR "faulty logic" would have us believe.
laughing

jinzin
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Holy crap Jizin O.o


erm

Sorry, I know you're not familiar with me, that was the Super-multi-battle-post.

But yeah I'm probably checking out after that last one. Not gonna do that again for someone who wants to say things didn't happen that clearly took place on screen and on panel as well.

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
Mortal wounds? He took over a dozen blows from a sword like Zangetstu, he was cut on both sides of his neck at the base of his shoulders and took a shot striaght through his face. At the very LEAST he took enough damage to equate several mortal wounds before removing his eyepatch. Anyone other than Kenny would have been done for. Even Ikkaku got obliterated by 1 shot like what Kenny was taking.

No he didn't. no expression


Mortal wound would be a stab through the lungs, major artery, etc. He cut large superficial cuts that would be mortal if not addressed, sure. If you want to argue semantics on wounds about a fictional universe, go ahead. Fact is, Ichigo was stabbed THROUGH the chest and they BOTH suffered large SUPERFICIAL wounds. Ichigo was in worst shape, at the beginning, in the middle, and even after the fight was over.

Originally posted by jinzin
That IS what I'm arguing. I don't think he was holding back his spiritual pressure, he just wasn't using anywhere near his peak physical strength.

Specifically, half of his striking ability. smile



Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah he did, nay-say all you like doesn't change the fact that he held them both off at once using shikais and then forced them into using bankai.

Deny all you want, he really didn't.

Here's your "at-once":

Sajin did that super strike with his Shikai (where it makes a huge arm). He knew full well that it wouldn't hit Kenpachi. He did it to make dust so Kenpachi wouldn't see the next attack from Tousne's shikai. Then, Tousen did his Shikai thingie, which would kill most shinigami, no problem.

Then, we have a double sealed sword strike against Kenpachi's released zanpakutou.

There's the extent of Sajin's involvement in the fight. All the rest was completely Tousen.

Now, no more of this.

Originally posted by jinzin
The only time he focused on Tousen was after his bankai release, for obvious reasons doesn't change what happened before.

This serves no purpose in this discussion. And, you're incorrect here, as well. If you want to get all pedantic on me, so will I.

Every time Kenpachi talks directly to Tousen, he is focusing on Tousen. Also, when kenpachi kicked away Tousen when they did that double sword strike, he was focusing on Tousen.



Originally posted by jinzin
What feats?
In both the anime AND the Manga Kenpachi parries a two handed strike from both Tousen AND Sajin who were putting their full body weights into it, holding his sword with one hand. confused
And, Kenpachi still did this with his eyepactch on, covered in wounds from Ichigo from 3 days earlier, and having just taken the full on Shikai attacks of both captains.... How on earth you can possibly draw yourself to the conclussion that Kamamura is well beyond me, but please do tell I'd love to know, especially given that Kenny was the one to cut through the toughest Hierro of the Espada.

Likewise, prove your case that Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi.. please.

So, you think that Sajin was giving it his all, hmm?

If Sajin REALLY put all of his effort into that strike, it would have launched Kenpachi straight down through the building. Or are you forgetting that he has the greatest strength feat in all of Bleach? (When he threw the skyscraper arrancer.)

Why is it difficult to assume that both Tousen and Sajin were holding back at the beginning of the fight? Of course, we could always talk about poor writing: Tousen chopped off Grimmjow's arm and Grimmjow didn't even notice it until after it happened. Sajin flipped that absurdly large arrancer, all on his own. You can say that those feats are PIS compared to their first showing. That's fine. I'd agree with that. That's really what my actual point was from the beginning.


Originally posted by jinzin
Tousen TRIED to kill Kenpachi with his bankai, and failed utterly... Kenpachi could not beat either of those two captains? He DID... he beat one using his bankai to the point that he literally began to walk away from the fight because it ceased to amuse him. confused
What the f**k?

"I don't like it, it didn't happen".

Tousen did not TRY to kill Kenpachi. He said he was, then dicked around for the first 3 or 4 strikes. If he TRIED to kill Kenpachi, he would have taken his head off as fast as he took Grimmjow's arm off.

Nemebro called that CIS. Cool. We can call it that.



Originally posted by jinzin
No the point is, that Kenpachi was STILL holding back 1/2 his true power while Ichigo was going all out and had backup from two seperate sources.

Two "separate" sources? Sorry, no. He didn't. A zanpakutou is part of a shinigami's soul. It IS them.


And, no, Kenpachi was not holding back half of his true power. He let it all loose. He just forgot to use his kendo skills that would double his striking power. (That's striking power, not his power, as a whole.)

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
In what way is that logic faulty?
Given that Tousen seems to think Kenpachi's some sort of oni, that may very well be true. Point?


Really? You don't know?

Not once, but twice do we see a large skull face energy thing behind Kenpachi as he does his supersaiyan thing.

The very same fight that has Ichigo with that "hallow" energy face behind him is the same exact fight Kenpachi had the same damn thing..just mere panels away from each other.

Originally posted by jinzin
Since your scan doesn't actually show up it's hard to tell what you're talking about.

You can look back a couple of pages. It won't kill ya.



Originally posted by jinzin
Is Kenpachi of the four noble families? No..... Okay point?



The point is that Byakuya is the strongest to ever come from the noble families in all of history. Isn't it obvious?

The fact that his spiritual pressure is equal to or greater than Kenpachi's should at least testify of the difference.

Byakuya vs. Kenpachi would be a rather one sided fight. Just a sealed sword figh alone would be rather one sided.


Originally posted by jinzin
You may as well say he's as strong as all the Espada based on that "faulty logic"...

No, that would be taking out of context of what my comment was about. It was simply a comment about how strong Byakuya was...which that particular point is unrelated to Kenpachi, the comment before that about the spiritual pressure was not, though.





Originally posted by jinzin
And Kenny's far from a sheer berserker, so once again, your point?
Kenny simply enjoys fighting, this doesn't preclude that he can think in a fight. Especially when he used his fighting intelligence to own Tousen.

My bad. I thought that someone who became blood lusted to kill during battle was a berserker. I thought someone who was called a demon, murderer, etc. during a fight could also be considered a berserker.

You say that Kenpachi is far from a berserker is one of the dumbest things you've ever posted.


Originally posted by jinzin
Because of the reference to his observation on Gin and Tousen? Hardly... it's true.
Given that you're aware of where that's from I think we can at this point just conclude that you're a hypocrite. no expression

Well, since you bring it up, my coworker reads Bleach a lot, too. He just got done telling me about Kenpachi being observant and used that same argument about his skills. Of course, my natural response was, "where?" He couldn't find it in the manga, so he showed me the Bleach wiki article stating that.


I try to steer clear of wiki's specifically for that reason. If it was stated by Kenpachi, or implied, we couldn't find it. I don't remember. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it does mean that you're using the Bleach wiki to pwn newbz. I don't like wiki-warrior debates.


Originally posted by jinzin
Exactly, he shies away from tricks/intelligence/selling out, it doesn't dictate that he's not an intelligent fighter though.

I don't disagree with this, however, he's not on the intellectual level of say, Byakuya, Ukitake, or Urahara. That's really my point.

Originally posted by jinzin
I already know that. The guy runs long distance alongside bullet trains, he memics flash step he moves so fast.

I know you know. I was stating it to just put out there how badass Kenpachi is. It was also so you could know that I know that. No I know that you know that I know that. And now that I've said that, you know that I know that you know that I know that.

Originally posted by jinzin
But nonsense, Byakuya's not "absurdly faster" or "much much faster" than Kenpachi.


No, he is. That's the end of this discussion. Dead serious. For anyone to think for a moment that Kenpachi, who can't even use s

Originally posted by jinzin
Byakuya couldn't outmatch the speed of a SEVERLY wounded Ichigo who had just been fighting Kenpachi, possibly less than an hour before hand. How in the hell is he "much much faster"..... If you're talking about his Zenbanzakura, that's a totally different story.

You've got that backwards. ICHIGO reacted fast enough to block Byakuya's sword strike technique known as senka? (I forget what it's really called and I can't be arsed to look it up.)


Ichigo couldn't, at the time, move as fast as Byakuya. He could, however, react in time to block a sword strike to his back.

I think, at this point, you're arguing just for the sake of argument.


Originally posted by jinzin
Still looks like he hit him with the stump of his blade, doesn't really matter either way though. Given the fact that Renji's Zanpactou quite literally disintigrated in his hands it really doesn't come off anywhere near as impressive as what Kenny did.

That's cool. You can interpret it the way you want. But, to me, it looks like he broke off the tip of the blade on Byakuya, and the rest of the sword shattered due to the stress of the strike.



Originally posted by jinzin
just giving some food for though. But no, it's not the "end of the that" until we know for sure... lest you think you can chalk Kenny's sword being released up to another plot-hole.. Tell me, how the hell can Kenny use his released state if he doesn't even know it's name?
That's the difference between him and Ichigo and it draws things into serious discrepency.

Damn it, dude. It was the end of that discussion. Until we have more information from the manga, it really is indeed the end of that discussion.


Originally posted by jinzin
Since the plot calls for Tousen to lose the fight, him giving problems to Kenpachi is what's PIS....

Okay, I can follow that logic. If that's the case, then Tousen shouldn't have been able to cut off Grimmjow's arm so easily.


Here's my logic on how retarded that was:

Ichigo beat Kenpachi at his best (minus the two handed kendo technique thingie). Then, Ichigo got training that made him a MUCH better sword fighter, learned shunpu, and unlocked his bankai. K, follow me so far?


Now, this version of Ichigo is much much stronger than his previous version. That version, in bankai mode, could easily dice Ichigo up. His sword skills alone greatly improved and he was able to not only FINALLY start keeping up with Zangetsu, he was fighting multiple Zangetsu's at once towards the end.

Now, we have this very same Bankai Ichigo getting his ass handed to him by unreleased Esapda, Grimmjow.

This very same Grimmjow got his arm hacked off by Tousen like it was nothing. Grimmjow has a hierro, which hardens his sking beyond Kenpachi's, he's much faster as he outclasses a bankai Ichigo, and he fights faster and better than a bankai Ichigo. This is an Ichigo that improved rediculously since his fight with Kenpachi. Give Kenpachi his Kendo Technique. Ichigo easily blocked a FAR more powerful attack than that attack: He stopped that sokyoku execution blade like it was nothing. This same Tousen who couldn't kill Kenpachi, easily cut off the arm of Grimmjow and at such speed that Grimmjow couldn't even react until after it happened.



Now, we can coclude 1 or 2 things: Tousen cutting of Grimmjow's arm is absurd PIS, or both Sajin and Tousen were going really easy on Kenpachi. We have feats from both Sajin and Tousen that would indicate either PIS or that they were going easy on him.

I like to thinkt that Tousen NOT cutting off Kenpachi's head, first of, during the bankai, is absurd PIS. If he said he was going to kill him, why didn't he do it? He could have. It was well within his ability to? Why did he just slash him? He wasn't serious about actually killing him when he said it multiple times.

Here's another perspective, which I covered with Nemebro: He just wanted to torture Kenpachi but didn't count on Kenpachi being so badass that he would allow himself to get stabbed just to kill Tousen. In fact, that seems the most plausible...but is really out of character for Tousen.


What do you say?

1. It was PIS that Tousen didn't kill Kenpachi in one sword strike like he should have and it was Kubo just trying to write out a longer story and save his characters.

2. It wasn't PIS at all and Tousen was very much trying to torture Kenpachi...which would also be PIS as Tousen is supposed to be a kind righteous type of character.

3. It was PIS that Kenpachi, while still wearing his patch, could even stand up to Sajin or Tousen.

4. Both Tousen and Sajin were holding waaaaaay back and didn't hold back later in the series.

OR

5. All subsequent feats from Tousen and Sajin were CIS.

EvilAngel
My take on the whole Tousen thing was, he believes Kenpachi to be a demon. His character to date tells us he believes himself to be an infallible force of justice. So my bet would be he was performing an act of retribution on Kenpachi.

He made references to fear, to me indicating he wanted Kenpachi to for once fear battle and a fight, as the so called demon loves and revels in it. Isn't that what their squad is about? Fearing war, and fighting?

I don't think he wanted to Kill Kenpachi per say. Maybe he was tempted, but he didn't, which to me suggests that wasn't what he had in mind. I suppose he changed his mind once he realised Kenpachi doesn't fear battle no matter what it is he is fighting, which was after he attack Kenpachi a few times. After that my bet was Tousen considered Kenpachi beyond 'redemption', and decided then and there to kill him. Only by which time Kenpachi had already worked out how he was going to win.



As for what what is PIS. I think Ichigo fought Kenpachi at full resolve which considered a resolved Ichigo beat Shirosaki (Hollow Ichigo) this is seemingly stronger than Vizard Ichigo (Ichigo using Shirosaki's power). While Bankai has been stated to only increase his speed, Kenpachi's Strength has not been left behind.

Resolved Ichigo also stopped the executing with one hand, and cut a stand that could stop a million zanpactou. Thus has some of the best feats in Bleach.

Thus i believe Kenpachi to be as strong (or more likely stronger) as Tousen and Byakuya in a sword fight only. Naturally those two are proficient and powerful with Kidou so that is where a balance is achieved. Until you consider Byakuya's bankai anyway.


Which in turn explains everything..... right?

Atleast if you consider my opinion to be true. Which is the optional part ;p

NemeBro
Originally posted by jinzin
Yamamoto probably not. Unohana I doubt he'd beat either (going by implications at least)

Shunsui or Ukitake using shikai... I think is entirely left up to debate against an all out Kenny.

Shunshui even said something along the lines of his Shikai being dangerous to himself, so it's just a matter of who's better at taking advantage of the rules at play. Probably nothing, and it is not up to debate, all four of them are the strongest captains in all of Soul Society, with Shunsui taking out the Primera by himself, Ukitake is about the same level.

Also, dadudemon, I am probably not going to respond. I will not resort to making four posts, each one enough for a couple essays, in order to argue anime. no expression

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
It was CIS that was influencing both sides of the fight.
Tousen's was that he didn't kill Kenny in the first strike, Kenny's was that he didn't just remove his eyepatch and blow Tousen's Bankai like he did Ichinose's.... AS WELL AS him being distracted and unfocused enough by Tousen's Bankai reveal to allow Tousen to land that first blow in the first place...

Yup. I agree on all accounts. HOORAY!

Originally posted by jinzin
Kenny a character praised by the 13 court guard squad as on of the best in sheer fighting ability, and one who berrates others for losing focus during a fight, and who's focus on the fight is so great that Myori asserts not to interfere in his fights.....

Yeah, I donít get the whole Myori fear thing. Myori could easily wipe the floor with Kenpachi with his Shikai. No one stands a chance against Myori unless they are faster or have a hack shikai/bankai.

Originally posted by jinzin
LOST HIS FOCUS enough to be hit by a strike that he was shown consistently and repeatedily capible of avoiding....

Yeah not PIS, you just don't like it.

I have no idea what youíre going on about, here. You do know that Tousen got 3-4 strikes on Kenpachi before Kenpachi adjusted to the Bankai, right?

And, avoiding those strikes while he was under Tousenís bankai is not even close to being correct. He didnít avoid any of them. no expression What he DID do was avoid getting his vitals slashed or stabbed.

And, it is PIS, you just donít like it because it takes away from your love of Kenpachi. Cool. But thereís other things to like about Kenpachi other than him surviving against Tousen when he shouldnít have, by all logic.



Originally posted by jinzin
After bankai, not before... stop ignoring half the damned fight.

Sorry, bro, but the vast majority of the fight occurred between Kenpachi and Tousen. Stop ignoring most of the fight, incorrectly assigning the small skirmish before the majority of the fight as ďhalf the damned fightĒ, and ignoring obvious CIS.


Originally posted by jinzin
Only because Ikkaku himself refused to release his Bankai,

Weíll come back to this, in a moment. Itís good info for a subsequent point of mine.

Originally posted by jinzin
Which is easily refuted when you consider that Kenpachi was more than capible of avoiding the blow when he focused on the fight and not the distraction of the Bankai to begin with.

No, it is not refutable at all. Iíve been over this already. Kenpachi had no idea what to do. It took him a few slashes to adapt. Tousen had the upper hand, by an absurd amount. Again, ďIF Tousen was really trying to kill Kenpachi and not dick around, he would have chopped his head off, first thing.Ē

Since we know for a fact that it took Kenpachi several slashes and THEN some to finally get it down, your point flies directly in the face of fact.

Originally posted by jinzin
Whic is easily countered when you consider that if Kenpachi wasn't dicking around he would have removed his eyepatch, powered up, used Kendo and utterly obliterated Tousen's Bonkai anyways.

1. This is a completely baseless statement.
2. Not being able to see, hear, taste, smell, or even feel his spiritual energy, kind of makes your point completely untrue. If it would have helped him, he would have done so. Or did you forget that Kenpachi said to himself that he could really die?

3. He didnít remember his Kendo thing until his fight with #5. You canít pick and chose things that are out of continuity. At that time, that kendo thing was not available to Kenpachi. (Sure, he could have done it, but it wouldnít have done jack diddly squat for him inside of the bankai.)

Originally posted by jinzin
Which is why he did so against Tousen.

I guess you werenít paying attention to what you were just posting to, were you? That was story stupidity that he didnít just lop off Kenpachiís head.

Originally posted by jinzin
Against the previous squad 11 Captain. Originally posted by jinzin
And why he straight killled a released state Espada... okay.. "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

Irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the current captains.



Originally posted by jinzin
Simply following your fine example hypocrite.

1. I only insult if I am insulted.
2. You insulted me first.
3. I called you ignorant, which isnít really an insult. You didnít know something. Thatís ignorance. Thereís tons of things I donít know and if you knew something I didnít, and I spoke in ignorance about it, and you set me straight, I would say it is ignorance on my part for not knowing that.

Originally posted by jinzin
Might as well label Tite Kubo a fanboy then. erm

Wow. You finally are getting a clue, here. HE CAN BE TAUGHT!

Originally posted by jinzin
Kenpachi has already beaten 2 Captains who used Bankai to against him, and an Espada's Released state. CIS played more against Kenny than Tousen in their fight. Honeslty... stop this nonsense.

As I already addressed earlier in this thread (which you seem to have conveniently overlooked), I was referring to the current captains.

And, you really need to stop this nonsense yourself. CIS worked FOR Kenpachi. Have you not been paying attention at all to anything Iíve said(posted)? Obviously, you have, but you chose to ignore and use counterarguments that are either full of fail or are factually incorrect. Honestly, this beats anything, as far as idiocy goes, youíve stated previously: ďCIS played more against Kenny than Tousen in their fight.Ē Youíve got to be kidding me. What the f**k? (Whatís sad is youíre not. Youíre actually serious.)




Originally posted by jinzin
I will then take this as your concession that Bankai doesn't = Victory with Kenpachi.....

Concession accepted, so drop that nonsense.

You can incorrectly and idiotically interpret it that way, if you want to. It is not ďbankai = victory Kenpachi.Ē It is any current or recent captainís Bankai that would destroy Kenpachi, CIS aside. The only exception to this would be Ichigo. He would wipe the floor clean with Kenpachi in Bankai form. RenjiÖI dunno. IkkakuÖI dunno. Prolly notÖbut Renji might pull a win off with his energy blast thingie.

NemeBro
Mayuri is not that fast dude...

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
Uh, no... Byakuya failed to beat a sealed Renji with his Shikai, but you think he's gonna beat Kenpachi? GTFO.

Wow. I take it back. THIS is the stupidest thing youíve said. This is so stupid that I didnít even laugh at it. Itís pathetic and sad. Youíve lost any reasonable counter arguments so youíre going directly against what was contained and making stuff up on the spot. (I know another poster that used to do that. Leo.)

So, to you, Byakuya holding back Renji in his sealed state, when Renji was using his Bankai, is Byakuya using his shikai and Renji using his sealed form?

K. Iíll bite. Post the scans of shikai Byakuya fighting a sealed Renji with his Shikai.

Iíll save you some time and tell you what happened: Byakuya was going to release his Shikai. Then, Renji quickly released his and launched it at Byakuya, forcing Byakuya to have to stop the release. Then Renji goes to his Bankai form. Then, Byakuya frigginí fights Renjiís BANKAI WITH HIS SEALED ZANPAKUTOU!

Originally posted by jinzin
Not really a typical captain is he.

Someone is in deeeeeniiiiiaaaaaal. teehee


Originally posted by jinzin
Again with this 'much faster" crap. Get that outa here!

Yeah, cause someone being really fast doesnít help at ALL in combat. erm

GTFO outta here with that crap.

Originally posted by jinzin
Kenny's already proven fast enough to keep up with flash step and sonido on expert levels.

On ďexpertĒ levels, huh? Cause it was established that #5 was using sonido on ďexpert levelsĒ huh? GTFO outta here with that crap. For all we know, #5 didnít even USE sonido in the manga. It was never said that he used Sonid. In fact, I think I got that ďdoesnít have to use shunpuĒ BS from the anime.

Originally posted by jinzin
And you're completely assuming this based on Soifon hitting Kenpachi as needed before being taken out of a fight. Given that Tousen failed to do as much in a fight where Kenpachi had all his senses removed, what chance does Soifon have?

Youíre COMPLETELY right, man. Why the hell would I assume that one of the fastest (I donít know who is faster: Soi Fon or Yuroichi) Shinigami would be able to use a hack shikai ability that only requires to pokes?

And, you still havenít paid attention to anything Iíve said. Tousen not chopping off Kenpachiís head at the very beginning is major PIS/CIS.


Originally posted by jinzin
Same as above.

And mine is the same as above.

Itís rather retarded to think that Kenpachi remotely stands a chance against people as fast as Byakuya or Soi Fon.


Originally posted by jinzin
All of these are up for debate....

Sure, itís up for debateÖonly if I feel like arguing with a bleach retard who thinks Kenpachi even remotely stands a chance against Soi Fon, Byakuya, or any of the other captains I mentioned.

Originally posted by jinzin
hell, shunsui's shikai isn't even really granting him an advantage after his opponent figures out the rules. erm

Right, cause everyone is as smart as Stark. erm If you actually read the manga, Starkís intuition is ridiculous. Heís not really comparable to anyone except maybe Yamamoto and Aizen, as far as intuition/intelligence goes.


Originally posted by jinzin
But all you're doing for Soifon and Myori, is giving them the benefit of the doubt and robbing Kenny of his.

Or the fact that Myori easily kept up with Ishida, who was a master of a technique similar to shunpu? Or that fact that Soi Fon could wreck anyone not able to keep up with her in her shikai form? (Cept BarringanÖcause Barringan had the cheat hack aging cloud mist thingie going on.)

Originally posted by jinzin
Given his fighting ability he's more likely to land first blood, assuming he's not messing around.

Yes, remove any sort of personality from Kenpachi (no patch) and Soi Fon(She can stay just in her Shikai form, but is serious), and Soi Fon insta kills Kenpachi with two strikes that appear to only be one unless played back in really slow mo.

Originally posted by jinzin
You're relying on a misconception that they are much faster than Kenny in combat when nothing of the sort has been proven true. Likewise Kenny could Slice either of their heads off with one blow without eyepatch removal OR Kendo. erm

Cept that, Kenpachi canít use shunpu and they can and their Shikaiís are haxor, and his is just a big sword, etc. Yeah, thereís NO reason at all to know that it would end quickly with Kenpachi on the dying end. Good call. NOT.

I donít remember anywhere where it said that #5 was using sonido. Makes perfect sense why Kenpachi could beat him.


Originally posted by jinzin
No I don't... since it's not true.. And infact proven false several times in the series already.

No, you do see it. It was proven true many times In the manga, already. You just say things that contradict the other person, not caring how wrong or right they are.




Originally posted by jinzin
No.. that's what you've been doing Mr. "Kenny never fought both captains at once, he can't beat someone using Bankai etc etc..

Yes, thatís exactly what Iíve been doing, Mr. ďIíll just make up a bunch of stuff to counter DDMís points because almost everything Iíve been arguing has been baseless or simply ignorance.Ē Thatís a long name you have there, friend.


Originally posted by jinzin
PIS is entirely subjective to the reader which is why it can be argued both ways.

Actually, no, PIS is almost always NOT subjective.

Originally posted by jinzin
I ignore your claims to PIS because 1) you call PIS on so many things and 2) Because they're not actually things influenced by PIS but CIS.
I care about facts, not your preferences.

No, you care about what you can make up or blatantly ignore.



Originally posted by jinzin
It was obviously a joke to make my point more effective about you ignoring facts.
It's a better method than the one you use which is essentially a grown up version of a "Nu-uh" argument, only one that's filled with ten dollar words, little substance, and the occassional red herrings when you don't have anything tangible to cling to.

1. It was not a joke.
2. $10 words? WTF? I havenít used any big words at all. If I did, thatíd be the stupidest argument anyone could come up with.
3. Odd that you say my arguments have no substance since that have little fact when they all contain absurd test walls of facts and cover many different logical perspectives on each point.
4. Red Herrings? Pffft. I need you to quote all of the Red Herrings. After you do that, Iíll show you where you just didnít understand.

Originally posted by jinzin
The same pressure that's caused massive shockwaves with one strike while not even powered up or without his eyepatch?
That's on par with Kenpachi? Really.. The same pressure that devestated Ichinose's released state with a flex?
How about some proof or example to this statement other than your bias opinion?

Wait, you mean the same Reiatsu that DIDNíT destroy the ground just by him flexing it while standing still?

So, like, yeah. You didnít address any of my points and are instead going off into strawman territory.

And, on top of that, youíre using filler episode bull as a counter argument. Laaaaame.


Originally posted by jinzin
Databook fails to impress when it's constantly contradicted by the source material, you should head over the comic forums and ask how reliable to handbooks are. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Databook doesnít fail when there are multiple feats to back it up. And, you canít bat away a canon source just because it contradicts your points. Thatís just dumb.

Originally posted by jinzin
In what blue hell has Sajin proven stronger? When he got stopped by a one handed parry from Kenpachi or when he got manhandled and tossed aside.
Christ it wasn't even a judo toss, he just grabbed Sajin and chucked him.

Iím actually loling to myself, now, because you donít know what Iím talking about.

PIS is PIS, bro. And, no, he used Sajinís massive size and strength to throw Sajin with a very ďjudoĒ like toss. Nice try, Mr. Denials.

Originally posted by jinzin
Several men near captain level are not even on the level needed to cut kenny.

Yeah, this statement is completely baseless. We know that Renji couldnít cut Byakuya when he was almost completely drained and Byakuya has the same as or greater than spiritual pressure as Kenpachi. Ikkaku is in the same boat as Renji. They are about equals with Ikkaku having a tad more experience with fighting and with his Bankai.

EvilAngel
No response for my post =(

i thought it was well thought out

NemeBro
Dadudemon, why are you arguing Sajin is physically stronger when we see he clearly is not?

Both him and Tousen clutched their swords with both hands...And Kenny easily blocked it with one hand on his.

We also saw who physically manhandled who.

Oh, and Sajin has never done this with his full strength:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/04/

As for Sajin having higher spiritual power...Why? Because he destroyed t3h ground? Lol, shut up.

Kenpachi has shown to have among the highest spiritual power in the series, his clash with Ichigo when both were at full power destroyed several surrounding buildings, it is so powerful by slashing in a building's direction he cut it in half.

Why do you think Kenpachi is the weakest captain? Is it because he is the most feared captain in Soul Society (Except for maybe Unohana and Yamamoto) and has a boogieman effect on those he battles? Is it because he killed the previous captain of his squad? Is it because he has shown to be definately superior to at least one captain?

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
Uh, yeah... it does as I already talked about.

Kenny dodging Tousen's attacks even without his senses, is the standard, not the exception.

Tousen hitting him was due to CIS, CIS affected both only it affected kenny more as he didn't even try to take his patch off. no expression

Iíve already talked about it too. Youíre just dense. Tousen hitting him is by far, not CIS.


Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah that's what he said, but the PLOT dictated Tousen to give Kenny a challenge before he lost. That he did something which was contradicted multiple times later is a plot device not the other way around. CIS was at play here, not PIS, and it affected Kenny more.

Itís the opposite. Since that time, Tousen has shown that he can move so absurdly fast and precise that he lopped off Grimmjowís arm. The fact that Tousen didnít do that to Kenny, who would be SOFTER than Grimmjow, is PIS and CIS. (It kept the fight going on longer, making it PIS. But, him not actually doing it is CIS.)



Originally posted by jinzin
Uh, no. This has EVERYTHING to do with the argument at hand.

No it doesnít. *facepalms*

Originally posted by jinzin
You think Tousen able to take advantage of a surprised Kenny dictates Kenny's ability to beat his Bankai.

Nope.

I think Tousen NOT chopping off Kenpachiís head with the very first strike, when it was fully within his powers, is PIS/CIS. Kenpachi was able to beat him because Tousen struck him with his sword a few times, giving Kenpachi enough time to figure out a way to adapt. THEN, Kenpachi STILL got sliced and stabbed, he was just avoiding certain death by dodging just enough.

Originally posted by jinzin
You think Kenny was less affected by CIS than Tousen when he was the one holding more back in that fight.

Right. Because if Kenpachi would have increased his reiatsu he would all of a sudden gain the ability to see, taste, hear, smell, and feel Tousenís reiatesu? GTFO out of here with that crap.

Originally posted by jinzin
You think that Tousen cutting Kenpachi with that first strike was a testament to his advantage over Kenny in combat even though it was discredited almost immediately after, and done so multiple times.

Uh.

No.

This:

ďSince that time, Tousen has shown that he can move so absurdly fast and precise that he lopped off Grimmjowís arm. The fact that Tousen didnít do that to Kenny, who would be SOFTER than Grimmjow, is PIS and CIS. (It kept the fight going on longer, making it PIS. But, him not actually doing it is CIS.)

I think Tousen NOT chopping off Kenpachiís head with the very first strike, when it was fully within his powers, is PIS/CIS. Kenpachi was able to beat him because Tousen struck him with his sword a few times, giving Kenpachi enough time to figure out a way to adapt. THEN, Kenpachi STILL got sliced and stabbed, he was just avoiding certain death by dodging just enough.Ē

Originally posted by jinzin
You're ignoring what you don't like, CIS played both parties, simple as. And yeah, it DOES work that way since CIS is applicable to both characters and unlike PIS is not relative to our subjections.

Your entire argument was build on a logical fallacyÖ.AGAIN. Surprise surprise, right?

ďBecause if Kenpachi would have increased his reiatsu he would all of a sudden gain the ability to see, taste, hear, smell, and feel Tousenís reiatesu? GTFO out of here with that crap.Ē


Originally posted by jinzin
Your point?!

Your point was that it was a permanent power-up even though everything about that scene dictates otherwise. So yeah, they were counters to that point. Way to follow along. wink

Nice try. You still missed it. Not suprising. Iíve explained it to you and Nembro more than once now. Iím not doing it again.

Hereís a summary of what just happened:

DDM: Ichigo has gotten stronger since his fight with Kenpachi.
Nemebro: Nuh uhhh! He canít replicate the close the wound feat and do that powerup focus thing.
DDM: Dude, that wasnít even my point. And he did increase his focus since then by MANY times.
Nemebro: You didnít counter my point. That makes me right.
DDM: Dude, it was a non sequitor argument to begin with. It didnít even address mine.
Jinzin: *Makes the same logical fallacy*
DDM: *Explains the same damn thing.*
Jinzin: ZOMG! Look at you. Youíre so stuuuuupid. Lol, he didnít keep doughs power ups. Lulz.
DDM: *Faceplams*




Originally posted by jinzin
Please tell me this logical fallacy that's being used here.

A non sequitor counter argument followed by a strawman. Iíve already stated that. Try to keep up.

Originally posted by jinzin
Ichigo gets stronger after every fight, sure. No one said he didn't... What we're saying is that Ichigo's CONSISTENT level of strength isn't what it was while he was fighting Kenpachi.

Great. And I didnít contradict that. In fact, I agreed with it. Whatís your point? awesome

Now do you see why you two have me facepalming?

Originally posted by jinzin
Did Ichigo get stronger after that fight? Sure he did. Was it to a degree that you can jusitfy saying that his level of strength was consistently where it was when he fought Kenpachi and that is wasn't a temorary flux? Hell no.
And everything I said was a reason for why.

Fact is, as I already stated Ichigo's powers are all. over. the. place.

Cept. No. Ichigo peak hasnít been as weak since his fight with Kenpachi wellÖsince his fight with Kenpachi. Sure, we can get pedantic and talk about times he was injured and/or exhausted from his fights. Bla bla bla. Thatís not peak. (Fresh.)

Originally posted by jinzin
It's why he was able to reel back a Menos, and stop it's cero, but get beat up by an officer at 1/5 power like Renji, THEN backhand him into the air like a ragdoll.

Nah. In both cases, Ichigo berserked. Fail point is fail.

Originally posted by jinzin
It's why he was able to beat Ikkaku with little relative trouble, but then fought an almost losing battle with Renji, Ikkaku's student.

I finally found what I was looking for. Renji WAS five times stronger. That means his first fight with Renji was greatly limited, and why he was handing Ichigo his butt in their soul society fight.

http://img09.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/11-095.0/compressed/_manga_rain_bleach_ch095_18.jpg

And, my take on it is again, PIS. It could also be the simple fact the Ikkaku got to complacent in his confidence against a literal rookie. However, thereís no denying that Ikkaku should have won if Ikkaku taught Renji on the side and had a Bankai for years without telling anyone.

I digress. It could be that Renji was just more motivated to surpass Byakuya than Ikkaku was Kenpachi.

Originally posted by jinzin
It's why he was stronger than Ulq for a moment, and then got curbed by Yammi, almost immediately after owning Yammi.

hmmm..


If thatís what Ulq was talking about, that makes sense, now. I thought he was talking about Ichigo using his mask to go ape shizer sometimes.

Originally posted by jinzin
Why he's able to do things like scar Grimmjow after he had been no-sold the entire fight beforehand.

The fact the Grimmjow tanked that when Tousen cut his arm off like it was butter should be a further testament to my point of PIS, earlier. (This is what you call a strawman. However, it isnít a ďperfectĒ strawman as we were talking about that, earlier. Itís a strawman only in the context of your above comment, but not to the discussion as a whole. And, youíre right. I am not denying that what you said isnít true or wrong or faulty logic.)

dadudemon
Originally posted by jinzin
And there's even more examples than that. He was simply at the peak of one of his fluxes, and then that was compounded by two sources aiding him in the fight.
His performance there has not been matched since and for you to continue arguing otherwise is to simply ignore that Ichigo couldn't handle an espada of the 6th level using Bankai on 3 seperate occassions, nevermind Shikai, which he would have had to have done to match the level of power he was at while fighting Kenpachi, the man who was fighting the 5th to a standstill before his eyepatch came off. erm

Woah woah woah. Hold on a minute. You stated A and skipped all the way to C. He definitely was at the peak of one of his fluxes. However, it was only one source: his ownself. His performance there has been surpassed in every single major subsequent match. You are just wanting energy to be coming off of them for it to be legit. His Getsua Tenshou should be an example of this. (Iím just assuming that thatís where youíre coming from with you idea that Ichigoís performance hasnít been matched. Thatís simply not true.)

And, youíre making a very misleading argument about Kenpachi.

1. #5 didnít appear to be using sonido.
2. #5 was still in his sealed form.



Originally posted by jinzin
Yet.

Kisuke>Renji - he fought Kisuke first.

Nah. Iíd say Ikkaku is weaker than Renji, despite Ikkaku having his bankai mastered for longer. The bankai thing.

Originally posted by jinzin
Ikkaku (Presumably)> Renji - He fought Ikkaku first.

Maybe. In shikai, Renji. Bankai, MAYBE Ikkaku. I may rethink my position unless we get another Ikkaku bankai feat.

Originally posted by jinzin
Grimmjow<Ulq - He fought Grimm then Ulq, then Grimm again.

I agree. Itís a land slide. With Ulq, thereís not PIS. We know Ulq is retard fast, strong, and has tons of reiatesu. On top of that, heís the ONLY espada weíve seen with a second release. He said that not even Aizen knew about it.

Originally posted by jinzin
Fact is almost everyone of his fight performances proves that he's bouncing all around the scale, simply that the center of his scale is slowly going upwards which is why he showings have been becoming consistently stronger looking but all over the place all the same.

No. All of his fights show a nice steady increase in ability, strength, and reiatesu.

The only exception would be Ikkaku, but that could simply be a cause ofÖIkkaku simply isnít stronger than Renji.


Originally posted by jinzin
lol, not sure what part about that you define as the "fit" but if that's any indication of your comprehensive abilities I'd say I'm beginning to understand why you're arguing the way you are.

laughing

I seriously lolíd hard. Youíre that last person that should imply anyone is stupid, bro.

Originally posted by jinzin
Major fights to the plot or to his life? Because you know Kisuke WAS trying to kill him, as was ulq.

Yes and yes. no expression

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing facts. Fact is he fights opponents with varying levels of power and displays that his own power level varies. At any rate... at ANY rate.... You can't argue that the powerup he had against Kenpachi was a permenant one PERIOD. You can try but there's so many inconsistencies in trying to prove that, that the argument does nothing but fall to pieces at the seams which, I'm betting, is why you're so apt to cling to your excuses of PIS and such.

No, youíre trying to, and failing, to argue semantics. And, no, his powers are rather linear as the series progresses. Sure, he gets worn out, sure he gets boosts from his hallow side. Overall, itís rather linear. Now, you can argue that heís all over the place in every fight. Thatís fine. But, then so is every single character in every single fight.

Hereís how bleach and most manga fights go:

Character 1: I will beat you. Take this!
Character 2: I can take that. You take THIS!
Character 1: I can take that, but hereís my power or technique you didnít know about. AHA!
Character 2: I have my own. AHA!
Character 1: Iím on the ropes, but Iíll never loose!
Character 2: Victory is mine. Iíve almost won! AHA!
Character 1: ZOMG! Hereís my win pulled out of nowhere! AHA!
Character 2: Oh man, youíre so strong. I learned something new about myself and/or about you.


Doesnít that look likeÖpretty much every single fight in bleach?

This is what I mean by semantics. You can argue that b.s., but, generally, Ichigo is no more up and down than anyone else and his progression is rather linear. (Is linear one of those $10 words you were talking about? If so, you learn that word in what, middle school?)


Originally posted by jinzin
Well I don't so I guess I don't have to worry huh.

Nice little strawman though....

No, thatís not a strawman argument. You obviously donít know what one is. (By the time you read this, you probably know what one is, as I explained it, slightly, earlier.)

Itís simply disbelief it your tard powers.

ZOMG! Liek, Kinpahchee can winz againsted Byakugan! dur

Originally posted by jinzin
Basically all I see from you are glorified Nu-uh arguments, and that's when you're not just making up your own conclussions pulled straight out your backside. When you want to debate with the facts maybe we can continue this, as it stands your grdaeschool attempts to discredit empiracle evidence are pretty atrocious and if you focused half as much on the evidence as you do hitting on Angel maybe you would have half a leg to stand on....

Basically, all I see from your retarded non sequitor, false, fanboyish, or just plain dumb arguments is that you just want to argue and you pull things out of your backside as counter points.

When you want to debate with facts maybe we can continue this. As it stands, your gradeschool arguments and attempt to using but misspelling a ďbigĒ word like empirical are pathetic. The fact that youíve assigned ďempirical evidenceĒ to a debate about a fictional manga is frankly, atrocious. If you focused half as much time learning the meaning of big words, actually reading bleach instead of using the wikis, youíd actually make a decent point that didnít commit half a dozen logical fallacies.

And, if you knew how awesome EvilAngel was, youíd think she was the bomb, too.


Originally posted by jinzin
Ichigo's as strong as Kenpachi using Shikai when he fought Grimmjow, he just lost HORRIBLY using Bankai, because he wanted to make things interesting right? That's what YOUR "faulty logic" would have us believe.
laughing

Wow, dude. Thatís almost EXACTLY my point. Thatís actually what happened, too. Why are you acting as if it isnít true because thatís really what happened in the manga. no expression

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
Dadudemon, why are you arguing Sajin is physically stronger when we see he clearly is not?

I've already indicated why. Pay attention so we don't have to talk about this a hundred million times.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Both him and Tousen clutched their swords with both hands...And Kenny easily blocked it with one hand on his.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, you think that Sajin was giving it his all, hmm?

If Sajin REALLY put all of his effort into that strike, it would have launched Kenpachi straight down through the building. Or are you forgetting that he has the greatest strength feat in all of Bleach? (When he threw the skyscraper arrancer.)

Originally posted by NemeBro
We also saw who physically manhandled who.

Oh, and Sajin has never done this with his full strength:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/04/

As for Sajin having higher spiritual power...Why? Because he destroyed t3h ground? Lol, shut up.

This:

http://img02.nj.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/35-312.0/compressed/03.jpg


Is no where near to being on par with this:

http://img16.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.06.jpg

or this:

http://img06.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.07.jpg

http://img12.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.08.jpg

http://img16.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.09.jpg


LOL, shutup. You know you've been pwned hardcore.

Kenpachi made some dust in the sand with his reiatesu and two handed sword strike. That's awesome....but...Sajin threw a character that was just as tall as the pillar of dust and sand AND the arrancer was wider and much more massive. Not only did he throw him, it was a significant distance.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenpachi has shown to have among the highest spiritual power in the series, his clash with Ichigo when both were at full power destroyed several surrounding buildings, it is so powerful by slashing in a building's direction he cut it in half.

Why do you think Kenpachi is the weakest captain? Is it because he is the most feared captain in Soul Society (Except for maybe Unohana and Yamamoto) and has a boogieman effect on those he battles? Is it because he killed the previous captain of his squad? Is it because he has shown to be definately superior to at least one captain?

Well, the largest amount of Reiatesu seen in the series, thus far, is when Ichigo and Byakuya were fighting on top of that execution hill. The reiatesus was larger than the hill. Much larger than the fight between Kenpachi and Ichigo. So, do I win because I'm right? Will you admit I'm right? PLEASE?!?!?

No, I said he was the weakest based on the over all stats. No shunpu, no kidou, is not as fast as the other captains even without shunpu, and is certainly not the smartest.





Edit - It almost took me 15 mintues to post all of that, you big jerk! FUUUUUUUUU!

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Holy crap Jizin O.o

laughing

I just noticed this post. It's full of win.

dadudemon
Originally posted by EvilAngel
My take on the whole Tousen thing was, he believes Kenpachi to be a demon. His character to date tells us he believes himself to be an infallible force of justice. So my bet would be he was performing an act of retribution on Kenpachi.

He made references to fear, to me indicating he wanted Kenpachi to for once fear battle and a fight, as the so called demon loves and revels in it. Isn't that what their squad is about? Fearing war, and fighting?

I don't think he wanted to Kill Kenpachi per say. Maybe he was tempted, but he didn't, which to me suggests that wasn't what he had in mind. I suppose he changed his mind once he realised Kenpachi doesn't fear battle no matter what it is he is fighting, which was after he attack Kenpachi a few times. After that my bet was Tousen considered Kenpachi beyond 'redemption', and decided then and there to kill him. Only by which time Kenpachi had already worked out how he was going to win.



As for what what is PIS. I think Ichigo fought Kenpachi at full resolve which considered a resolved Ichigo beat Shirosaki (Hollow Ichigo) this is seemingly stronger than Vizard Ichigo (Ichigo using Shirosaki's power). While Bankai has been stated to only increase his speed, Kenpachi's Strength has not been left behind.

Resolved Ichigo also stopped the executing with one hand, and cut a stand that could stop a million zanpactou. Thus has some of the best feats in Bleach.

Thus i believe Kenpachi to be as strong (or more likely stronger) as Tousen and Byakuya in a sword fight only. Naturally those two are proficient and powerful with Kidou so that is where a balance is achieved. Until you consider Byakuya's bankai anyway.


Which in turn explains everything..... right?

Atleast if you consider my opinion to be true. Which is the optional part ;p

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I agree with most of it. The part about Tousen changing his mind mid bankai, though, is not right. He said, before his Bankai, that he was going to kill Kenpachi. However, if you're referring to before the fight and then at the beginning, before bankai, that Tousen changed his mind to killing Kenpachi, then I agree.

In fact, that last part makes sense as to why Sajin and Tousen were having a difficult time with him. They simply weren't trying very hard as they didn't have any killing intent and Kenpachi did. Still, Kenpachi didn't take off his patch, so he was wanting to savor it as much as possible.


And, I agree. Byakuya is probably not as physically strong as Kenpachi or Sajin, but his overall abilities make him a much more powerful captain.

As far as stopping the execution blade, yes. That is probably the best feat. However, many people equate that to PIS as not even Yamamoto should have been able to stop that thing.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dadudemon
I've already indicated why. Pay attention so we don't have to talk about this a hundred million times.







This:

http://img02.nj.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/35-312.0/compressed/03.jpg


Is no where near to being on par with this:

http://img16.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.06.jpg

or this:

http://img06.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.07.jpg

http://img12.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.08.jpg

http://img16.tx.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/9/38-327.0/compressed/bleach_327.09.jpg


LOL, shutup. You know you've been pwned hardcore.

Kenpachi made some dust in the sand with his reiatesu and two handed sword strike. That's awesome....but...Sajin threw a character that was just as tall as the pillar of dust and sand AND the arrancer was wider and much more massive. Not only did he throw him, it was a significant distance.



Well, the largest amount of Reiatesu seen in the series, thus far, is when Ichigo and Byakuya were fighting on top of that execution hill. The reiatesus was larger than the hill. Much larger than the fight between Kenpachi and Ichigo. So, do I win because I'm right? Will you admit I'm right? PLEASE?!?!?

No, I said he was the weakest based on the over all stats. No shunpu, no kidou, is not as fast as the other captains even without shunpu, and is certainly not the smartest.





Edit - It almost took me 15 mintues to post all of that, you big jerk! FUUUUUUUUU! Dude I'm not reading your gigantic word quilts. no expression

1. Oh really? And I am sure you have boundless evidence to prove Sajin was in fact the one who was holding back, right? Oh wait, no you don't. But guess what? I have proof that Kenny in fact WAS holding back. eek! Kenpachi had his eyepatch on, sealing his power.

2. ?

Dude, why is it that you think posting a bunch of pictures that are not working is evidence?

That's nice, only we see Kenpachi overpower Sajin to disprove this.

3. Um, largest in appearance maybe? Sure, why not. In power? Nah. It didn't really do anything to my recollection, unlike Kenpachi and Ichigo's. Also, I am pretty sure Yamamoto's was larger and more powerful, and Ulquiorra's was more powerful.

What he lacks in shunpo he makes up for in raw speed, his reflexes and attack speed are very impressive. He lacks Kido, but makes up for it in endurance, power, and strength. He is very intelligent in battle by his own right.

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
Dude I'm not reading your gigantic word quilts. no expression

1. Oh really? And I am sure you have boundless evidence to prove Sajin was in fact the one who was holding back, right? Oh wait, no you don't. But guess what? I have proof that Kenny in fact WAS holding back. eek! Kenpachi had his eyepatch on, sealing his power.

If you would have read the giant word quilts, you would know why. I don't feel like going over it again.


The fact that he's the only one who tore up the ground when he flexed his Reiatesu automatically puts him as the top "reiatesu" flexor.

And, I already explained, in my quote of myself, why Sajin was obviously holding back.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. ?

Dude, why is it that you think posting a bunch of pictures that are not working is evidence?

That's nice, only we see Kenpachi overpower Sajin to disprove this.

They worked just fine for me at work. I don't know what happened. However, when you quote the post, you can easily see what link is being directed to.

Here is that post again but with onemanga images:

Originally posted by dadudemon
This:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000312/03.jpg


Is no where near to being on par with this:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000082081/06.jpg

or this:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000082081/07.jpg

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000082081/08.jpg

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000082081/09.jpg


LOL, shutup. You know you've been pwned hardcore.

Kenpachi made some dust in the sand with his reiatesu and two handed sword strike. That's awesome....but...Sajin threw a character that was just as tall as the pillar of dust and sand AND the arrancer was wider and much more massive. Not only did he throw him, it was a significant distance.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Um, largest in appearance maybe? Sure, why not. In power? Nah. It didn't really do anything to my recollection, unlike Kenpachi and Ichigo's. Also, I am pretty sure Yamamoto's was larger and more powerful, and Ulquiorra's was more powerful.

What he lacks in shunpo he makes up for in raw speed, his reflexes and attack speed are very impressive. He lacks Kido, but makes up for it in endurance, power, and strength. He is very intelligent in battle by his own right.

You can call it however you like, fact is, the largest amount of reiatesu seen is the Kuchiki Ichigo fight as it spanned the entire hill top and then some. No other fight has that massive of a reiatesu flexing going on.

Sajin's reiatesu flexing is the most destructive seen, so, if we want to get technical, his was the most powerful as no other character, to my recollection, destroyed stone tile with just simply flexing their reiatesu...not even Aizen when he stared dow Grimmjow.


And, I would agree that Yamamoto's would be more powerful...but his his fire...so it's kind of retarded to compare anyone to him as his just burns everything up. lol

NemeBro
Originally posted by dadudemon
If you would have read the giant word quilts, you would know why. I don't feel like going over it again.


The fact that he's the only one who tore up the ground when he flexed his Reiatesu automatically puts him as the top "reiatesu" flexor.

And, I already explained, in my quote of myself, why Sajin was obviously holding back.



They worked just fine for me at work. I don't know what happened. However, when you quote the post, you can easily see what link is being directed to.

Here is that post again but with onemanga images:





You can call it however you like, fact is, the largest amount of reiatesu seen is the Kuchiki Ichigo fight as it spanned the entire hill top and then some. No other fight has that massive of a reiatesu flexing going on.

Sajin's reiatesu flexing is the most destructive seen, so, if we want to get technical, his was the most powerful as no other character, to my recollection, destroyed stone tile with just simply flexing their reiatesu...not even Aizen when he stared dow Grimmjow.


And, I would agree that Yamamoto's would be more powerful...but his his fire...so it's kind of retarded to compare anyone to him as his just burns everything up. lol 1. Nah.

You do realise Kenpachi cannot, and has never, actually flexed his reitsu right? He has little real control over it in such a way, although he is getting better. Regardless, it is irrelevant, the clash or Reitsu between Kenny and Ichigo were far more powerful, and by simple logic, Kenpachi has greater Reitsu.

Because Kenpachi was not sent flying by his assumed superior strength? Faulty logic. You are using circular reasoning, we should believe that Sajin is stronger because he is? Kenpachi has not a single lifting feat, he did however hold back two captains, swinging with both hands, with a single hand on his sword, shit, they even express their shock that he did it, why would Sajin express shock if he was holding back? He then manhandled Komamura. And what is up with this Judo throw bullcrap? He blocked his attack, then he grabbed his wrist and slammed Sajin. I cannot believe this argument, based on a single lifting feat, we should just accept Sajin is stronger, even though we have SEEN Kenpachi overpower him? Bullshit, by that logic because Superman has superior lifting feats, he is stronger than Doomsday even though Doomsday has manhandled him. Oh, and by the way, Aizen is stronger than Sajin as well. He caught Sajin's sword with one hand.

2. That's nice. Kenpachi still overpowered Sajin in their fight, which proves he is stronger. There is no debating this, you are wrong, deal with it.

3. Which did nothing...Unlike Kenpachi and Ichigo's bust of reitsu which destroyed the many surrounding buildings.

Although now that I think of it...You're wrong.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/14-15/

For emphasis, this is how large a single one of those buildings is.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/06/

This is what I assume you mean with the Reitsu from the Byakuya and Ichigo fight.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/01/

Entire hill my ass, it was only in two directions, and was not very large or vast. Not to mention the lack of any damage.

For the sake of compromise, I would be willing to say they are equal in size, but the Byakuya and Ichigo reitsu effect was not larger.

...Dude. We know Aizen's is stronger, since it subdued even the Sixth Espada, who is on par with Hollow Ichigo, Yamamoto's flex was able to rob Nanao of air, Ulquiorra's was so heavy it was described as being barely comparable to reitsu at all, and Kenpachi's power as a captain is due to his reitsu.

Well Toshiro's was known to freeze people, reitsu can have an element.

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Nah.

You do realise Kenpachi cannot, and has never, actually flexed his reitsu right? He has little real control over it in such a way, although he is getting better. Regardless, it is irrelevant, the clash or Reitsu between Kenny and Ichigo were far more powerful, and by simple logic, Kenpachi has greater Reitsu.

Because Kenpachi was not sent flying by his assumed superior strength? Faulty logic. You are using circular reasoning, we should believe that Sajin is stronger because he is? Kenpachi has not a single lifting feat, he did however hold back two captains, swinging with both hands, with a single hand on his sword, shit, they even express their shock that he did it, why would Sajin express shock if he was holding back? He then manhandled Komamura. And what is up with this Judo throw bullcrap? He blocked his attack, then he grabbed his wrist and slammed Sajin. I cannot believe this argument, based on a single lifting feat, we should just accept Sajin is stronger, even though we have SEEN Kenpachi overpower him? Bullshit, by that logic because Superman has superior lifting feats, he is stronger than Doomsday even though Doomsday has manhandled him. Oh, and by the way, Aizen is stronger than Sajin as well. He caught Sajin's sword with one hand.

It looked like he was flexing it at Ichigo when Ichigo came upon them.

And, if he did not know how to NOT flex it, people all around him and in his squad 11 would be collapsing.

Sajin would express shock for teh plots, obviously. It was to build up Kenpachi. Also, Sajin was mos def holding back. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Remember, if he wasn't holding back, he would have launched Kenpachi straight down through the building.


And, yes, it looked like Kenpachi used Sajin's large size and strength against him with a throw that looked almost like Judo.


And, no, Kenpachi did NOT overpower Sajin. He didn't even knock him back. He lifted him over himself, similar to a Judo throw. He used Sajin's size and the fact that he was leaning over at Kenpachi as a way to quickly flip Sajin.


Yeah. Aizen doesn't count in any of this. lol

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. That's nice. Kenpachi still overpowered Sajin in their fight, which proves he is stronger. There is no debating this, you are wrong, deal with it.

No He didn't overpower Sajin. Not at all. He blocked an attack and then flipped him overhimself. There's no debating this. You are wrong. smile

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Which did nothing...Unlike Kenpachi and Ichigo's bust of reitsu which destroyed the many surrounding buildings.


Although now that I think of it...You're wrong.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/14-15/


It did?

You do know that you're just...weirdly wrong here, right?

You do know that it was the clash of their respective energies that caused it and not them flexing it, right? It was an energy and reiatesu shockwave, bro. erm

Now, if you actually have an example of someone flexing their Reiatesu and destroying the ground around them, feel free to post that.

Originally posted by NemeBro
For emphasis, this is how large a single one of those buildings is.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/06/

This is what I assume you mean with the Reitsu from the Byakuya and Ichigo fight.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/01/

Yup. Much bigger clash and much bigger shock wave.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Entire hill my ass, it was only in two directions, and was not very large or vast. Not to mention the lack of any damage.

WTF!?!?!?!?!?

DUDE! You're blind as Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*k!

GTFO wit dat rediculousness.

Originally posted by NemeBro
For the sake of compromise, I would be willing to say they are equal in size, but the Byakuya and Ichigo reitsu effect was not larger.

No. They are not even close. We are talking the hill one is large by a factor of 5 or 10 on size.

Originally posted by NemeBro
...Dude. We know Aizen's is stronger, since it subdued even the Sixth Espada, who is on par with Hollow Ichigo, Yamamoto's flex was able to rob Nanao of air, Ulquiorra's was so heavy it was described as being barely comparable to reitsu at all, and Kenpachi's power as a captain is due to his reitsu.

Well Toshiro's was known to freeze people, reitsu can have an element.

Indeed.

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