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Jaden Korr is a Star Wars Character from the Star Wars Video Game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy the sequel to Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.

If you have not played Jedi Academy or have not read any material with Jaden Korr in it do NOT reply please.

Match - Jaden Korr vs Darth Malak

Location - Palpatine's Office

Conditions - Jaden Korr and Darth Malak both have Lightsaber , Use of Force such as Pull , Push , Grip , Lightning , Telekinesis none of that funky Force Destruction BlABLABLA Uber Drain junk.

(No Reinforcements and No power boosts or anything like that)

Who Would win?

Malak - Hero of the Mandalorian War , Coward who shot at Revan's Ship instead of dueling him straight , Survived through the Jedi Civil War till the End , killed many Jedi during that war.
(Cant find anymore for Malak)

Jaden Korr - Fought in the Battle of Korriban against many Reborns and killed Tavion and defeated the Sith Spirit of Marka Ragnos. (Who by the way was considered to be one of the greatest Sith lords ever) and Defeated two Reborn Masters and his Fellow Student Rosh Penin at the same time AND he survived throughout the Yuzhan Vong War AND furthermore survived a Duel against Caedus albeit he had Kyle Katarn and two other Knights with him.

I AM NOT A JADEN KORR FAN BOY there is simply more impressive stuff to his name.

I've never played the game, and I don't care too much for the request to not reply.


I just checked out Korr's Wookiee page and it's not very helpful. What did Korr do specifically during his known battles that would help us? Alternatively, where does Tavion stand in comparison to other known Jedi of the era such as Katarn or Luke? And where does Ragnos' power stand as a spirit (his life as a living Dark Lord has no specifics other than generalized quotations)? We kind of need these questions answered if Korr's combat prowess is to be analyzed accurately.


To Malak: What did Malak do specifically during his duels with Revan and his experiences during the wars that would help us? A necessary extension for his gauge is to also gather information on Revan's specific combat feats.

If you could provide these answers first, we'll be able to continue.

Malak puts Jaden in a stasis, cackles maniacally, then lobs his head off.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Coward who shot at Revan's Ship instead of dueling him straight.

That doesn't make Malak a coward; only an opportunist.



Jaden wasn't present during that confrontation.

Malak and Korr are both unknowns.

So therefore darth bandon wins.

Revan wins.

*sigh*

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor

(Cant find anymore for Malak)


Then don't use him in versus fights.

Thats kinda like saying you cant use Luke Skywalker in a fight since there is not anymore than what we already know about him since the material has not been written yet

-Beating Marka Ragnos one-on-one is impressive. Darth Wrylok (sp?) an experienced and powerful force user had a duel with a powerful ancient and had some difficulties, Jaden was still a pretty young knight when he beat Ragnos.

-He beat two Dark Jedi Masters as well as his own colleague at the same time on Vjun while he was still a padawan, that speaks volumes about his talent.

-His TK abilities were relatively powerful.

-He's Katarn's greatest apprentice (counts for something).

I'd favor Jaden over Malak. Jaden was considered by Luke and Kyle to be among the best Jedi Knight of his generation (i.e. his peers) at the time of the Ragnos crisis.

Originally posted by Advent
Malak puts Jaden in a stasis, cackles maniacally, then lobs his head off.

Stasis is a gameplay mechanic, there's no power like force stasis or stun or whatever makes a Jedi completely dazed without them falling over.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Thats kinda like saying you cant use Luke Skywalker in a fight since there is not anymore than what we already know about him since the material has not been written yet

Jaden also has demonstrated lightsaber ability (not just the gameplay).

His second duel with Alora, we see above average agility and dexterity from Jaden in that cut scene. His lightsaber style would seem to resemble Ataru.

Originally posted by Allankles
Stasis is a gameplay mechanic, there's no power like force stasis or stun or whatever makes a Jedi completely dazed without them falling over.

Actually, Hoth used it once.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Actually, Hoth used it once. and Johun used it on Bane.

Hmm... So Stasis is only in the Drew's products.

Originally posted by mattatom
He trained Bandon who would of tooled Revan if his team mates hadn't flew the Ebon Hawk into him.

Pff, Revan always flies the Ebon Hawk using the Force, as a matter of fact, he could turn that insect ship into a cell phone in seconds.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Pff, Revan always flies the Ebon Hawk using the ForceProve it. Originally posted by Slash_KMC
as a matter of fact, he could turn that insect ship into a cell phone in seconds. Prove it.

Originally posted by mattatom
Prove it. Prove it.

Revan does not need to be proven, it's common knowledge. Don't make me get out my stats book!

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Revan does not need to be proven, it's common knowledge. Don't make me get out my stats book! http://ncas.org/images/prove-it-060928.bmp

Fine.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Fine. Photoshopped, Reported.

Originally posted by mattatom
He trained Bandon who would of tooled Revan if his team mates hadn't flew the Ebon Hawk into him.

Wrong. How do you tool teh heart of teh force?

Revan has shown to be able to destroy entire worlds and has displayed reality warping powers.

Revan was stated by Galactus to be "beyond power" and all of the Celestials didn't dare lift a finger to him.

Revan has shown the ability to affect sub atomic particles and manipulate the laws of reality. His Force command surpasses that of anybody that has ever been seen.

The embodiment of the heart of the force, Revan was able to defeat the combined force of the entire cosmic powers, including the Living Tribunal and the abstracts. He was stated to be millions of times above the entire omniverse.

He was shown to be unaffected by a blast capable of shattering quadrillions of dimensions, and multiverses were destroyed when Revan was thinking too hard.

Revan would stomp.

Originally posted by mattatom
Photoshopped, Reported.

Not at all, it came straight from his best friend Supershadow, who obviously is a step higher than even G-Canon.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Not at all, it came straight from his best friend Supershadow, who obviously is a step higher than even G-Canon. Reported for corrupting members and lieing. Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Wrong. How do you tool teh heart of teh force?

Revan has shown to be able to destroy entire worlds and has displayed reality warping powers.

Revan was stated by Galactus to be "beyond power" and all of the Celestials didn't dare lift a finger to him.

Revan has shown the ability to affect sub atomic particles and manipulate the laws of reality. His Force command surpasses that of anybody that has ever been seen.

The embodiment of the heart of the force, Revan was able to defeat the combined force of the entire cosmic powers, including the Living Tribunal and the abstracts. He was stated to be millions of times above the entire omniverse.

He was shown to be unaffected by a blast capable of shattering quadrillions of dimensions, and multiverses were destroyed when Revan was thinking too hard.

Revan would stomp. Pics or it didn't happen.

Originally posted by mattatom
Pics or it didn't happen.

How to insert images? Darn! I just found one, but don't know how to insert!

Until that however, here is the text:




Within an instant, Revan transformed into his true form. A form beyond comprehension. A form billions
of times beyond all of existense, past, presence, future. He was Revan, the heart of the Force.

And powerful he was. None could stop his transformation. Not all of the universe,
not even the Tribunal, firing a blast that eradicated quadrillions of dimensions. He was Revan, and he was supreme.

Bandon was marveled at this, and he sunk, for he knew that this was a foe
war beyond the sith. Far beyond him.

Within an instant, Revan transformed into his true form. A form beyond comprehension. A form billions
of times beyond all of existense, past, presence, future. He was Revan, the heart of the Force.




In the next panel of the comic, Revan battles and finally defeats the combined force of TOAA and the Presence.

BTW, this is light side Revan. DS Revan is NOT the heart of the force, and does not contain that much power.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Darn! I just found one, but don't know how to insert!


What she said.

Originally posted by Allankles
Stasis is a gameplay mechanic, there's no power like force stasis or stun or whatever makes a Jedi completely dazed without them falling over.

It was shown in a cutscene; it has absolutely zilch to do with gameplay, Allankles. Try knowing what you're talking about next time.

just realized: I'm pretty certain Jaden is a Knight, not a master in LOTF, so did he get demoted? I don't remember him ever becoming a master in the games for that matter though.

Originally posted by Advent
It was shown in a cutscene; it has absolutely zilch to do with gameplay, Allankles. Try knowing what you're talking about next time.

Yes I was referring to the confrontation he had with the Revan because that was the only time he's used force stun (or whatever that was supposed to be).

My point was that the entire scene used gameplay animation. It was cartoonish, limited and inaccurate that's why it shouldn't be canon. In fact it was presented within gameplay - as you're carrying out dialogue choices with the stunned animation in the background.

The only 2 other powers he showed were choke and sith lightning, those were clearly out of gameplay.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yes I was referring to the confrontation he had with the Revan because that was the only time he's used force stun (or whatever that was supposed to be).

My point was that the entire scene used gameplay animation. It was cartoonish, limited and inaccurate that's why it shouldn't be canon. In fact it was presented within gameplay - as you're carrying out dialogue choices with the stunned animation in the background.

The only 2 other powers he showed were choke and sith lightning, those were clearly out of gameplay.

Nobody cares what you think should and should not be used as part of canon. Malak canonically has the power of stasis, as it is a power known to both the jedi and sith pre up until the Battle of Ruusan.

Sooo when is SW legend going to debate here?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nobody cares what you think should and should not be used as part of canon. Malak canonically has the power of stasis, as it is a power known to both the jedi and sith pre up until the Battle of Ruusan.

You don't know what you're talking about. Force stun as as presented in Kotor is inaccurate, as it is a feature of the bioware engine,and it had plenty of limitations.

There's no such thing as a force power that stuns a Jedi and lives him standing with his head lolling around like a bobblehead, while still being able to carry out a proper conversation.

It's not what about what I like or don't like, it's about accuracy. There's nothing to debate here.

Originally posted by Allankles
You don't know what you're talking about clearly. Force stun as as presented in Kotor is inaccurate and unrealistic. There's nothing to debate here.

And as usual, you're embarrassing yourself posting absolute nonsense. Advent told you to stfu, I'm telling you to stfu. You don't ever make any sense, nor do you present anything valuable to a debate. Nobody cares what you think is "inaccurate or unrealistic." It's in a cut scene, it's supported by Darth Malak canonically knowing force stun/stasis. Ergo, you lose...Again

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And as usual, you're embarrassing yourself posting absolute nonsense. Advent told you to stfu, I'm telling you to stfu. You don't ever make any sense, nor do you present anything valuable to a debate. Nobody cares what you think is "inaccurate or unrealistic." It's in a cut scene, it's supported by Darth Malak canonically knowing force stun/stasis. Ergo, you lose...Again

I never embarrass myself. Moving on, I don't see what is there to debate here? I'm telling you that force stun does not exist as it is presented in Kotor.

I'm talking about presentation which is all that counts here when accessing Malak's combat prowess. I've read Malak's bio in Jedi Sith and the Kotor campaign guide, listing what powers he has there is irrelevant as we have no evidence of their potency in combat.

My point is you can't seriously be using the most inaccurate gameplay determined animation to argue the supposed potency of Malak's force powers, you can't be serious.

Originally posted by Allankles
I never embarrass myself. Moving on, I don't see what is there to debate here? I'm telling you that force stun does not exist as it is presented in Kotor.
You've never won a debate, and you continue posting long after your argument has been defeated. Ergo, you embarrass yourself. And I'm telling you it DOES exist, regardless of how it is portrayed. I'm surprised you're not arguing that the planet Korriban doesn't exist because it's portrayed differently in every source.


Except he was able to "stun" a more powerful being(Revan), and his companion simultaneously while preparing to fight Bastila.


I'm not arguing the potency of his powers. Quit backpeddling. I'm arguing that the power DOES exist regardless of your opinion.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You've never won a debate, and you continue posting long after your argument has been defeated. Ergo, you embarrass yourself. And I'm telling you it DOES exist, regardless of how it is portrayed. I'm surprised you're not arguing that the planet Korriban doesn't exist because it's portrayed differently in every source.

Argh! Presentation is everything. There are plenty ways someone can be "stunned" e.g. TK, standing around with your head lolling like a bobble head is not one of them.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Except he was able to "stun" a more powerful being(Revan), and his companion simultaneously while preparing to fight Bastila.

Again, whatever stunning he did, it was presented as inaccurately as possible. To the point where we can't determine the effects of such a technique, because the presentation was basically cartoonish.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not arguing the potency of his powers. Quit backpeddling. I'm arguing that the power DOES exist regardless of your opinion.

Potency is the only thing that matters here, which is where I started. The inaccurate presentation prevents a proper determination of how such a technique would affect an opponent. Take away that cartoony presentation and where does that leave force stun?

Originally posted by Allankles
Argh! Presentation is everything. There are plenty ways someone can be "stunned" e.g. TK, standing around with your head lolling like a bobble head is not one of them.
Wonderful! And Force Stun/Force Stasis were techniques known to the sith and jedi of the old republic.




Inaccurate according to you? It was a stasis/stun as far as the rest of the world is concerned.





This is just sad. Take away A, B, and C, and blah blah blah. Who cares about the representation. It's affects were obvious. It froze or "stunned" two out of the three combatants simultaneously. One of these combatants is more powerful than Malak.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is just sad. Take away A, B, and C, and blah blah blah. Who cares about the representation. It's affects were obvious. It froze or "stunned" two out of the three combatants simultaneously. One of these combatants is more powerful than Malak.

It matters because we don't know its effects. If I write a story and I say character x got stunned by character b and I want you to assume it was impressive feat you'll want to know how I was "stunned".

Getting "stunnned" doesn't mean becoming a talking bobble head, so we can't even begin to determine what force stun would amount to in combat.

I could stun you with a TK attack just like I could stun you with sith lightning, these can accomplish the same thing without going the head lolling route in Malak's case. I don't see how you can be arguing this.

Originally posted by Allankles
It matters because we don't know its effects. If I write a story and I say character x got stunned by character b and I want you to assume it was impressive feat you'll want to know how I was "stunned".
Yes, we do. We saw it in KOTOR, and we saw it in the Bane novels. If the one who initiates the technique is more powerful than his opponent, then he can freeze the opponent for an X amount of time. If the reverse is true, it lasts for maybe a second, as shown by Bane.


It means getting frozen. I don't see how YOU could be arguing this.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, we do. We saw it in KOTOR, and we saw it in the Bane novels. If the one who initiates the technique is more powerful than his opponent, then he can freeze the opponent for an X amount of time. If the reverse is true, it lasts for maybe a second, as shown by Bane.

Revan was hit by force stun, not force stasis.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It means getting frozen. I don't see how YOU could be arguing this.

Malak used force stun, not force stasis. It should be called force nauseate, because that was the extent of its effects in kotor 1 and 2.

Originally posted by Allankles
Revan was hit by force stun, not force stasis.




Malak used force stun, not force stasis. It should be called force nauseate, because that was the extent of its effects in kotor 1 and 2.
You're splitting hairs. One was just a more powerful version of the other.

Not really, they're separate powers in Kotor and seem to have different effects based on presentation (one nauseates, the other seems to cause rigor mortis like effects).

Originally posted by Allankles
Not really, they're separate powers in Kotor and seem to have different effects based on presentation (one nauseates, the other seems to cause rigor mortis like effects).

Actually they're upgrades in KOTOR and they don't seem to be different at all.

Going by cutscenes and game play, Jaden is far more powerful. Plus if he turns darkside, the guy is even more beastly.

Plus, Darth Malak's real name is Alek Squinquargesimus, so he loses because of the dumb a** name clause passed by the Senate in A.D. 501

Allankles, we do know the effects of Force Stasis; it freezes the victim in place with a visible force field. It's outright visually demonstrated in KotOR and KotOR 2, both in cutscenes. According to the canon policy, cutscenes are canon. Contrary to what you've been suggesting, Force Stasis is its own power; it's not stunned as in after a Force Lightning attack. I'm not even sure your "talking bobblehead" argument holds any water either; do we ever see this happening on any occasion? Not to mention, you're associating dialogue choices that -in no way- alter the actions shown the cutscene, and are therefore irrelevant.

And yes, Allankles -- Beefy is right. Force Stasis is essentially Force Stun that allows up to three targets to be affected. The part about Stasis being a separate power/upgrade would be the game mechanic.

Originally posted by truejedi
just realized: I'm pretty certain Jaden is a Knight, not a master in LOTF, so did he get demoted? I don't remember him ever becoming a master in the games for that matter though.

At the End of the game Jedi Academy when Rosh is laying down on the medical table Luke and Kyle Katarn promote Jaden Korr to Jedi Master.

really? I'm actually playing that through again right now out of nostalgia, so in a day or two, i should see that. So now the question, how the heck did he get demoted? How does a master get de-mastered?

I thought they proclaimed him a true Jedi Knight, because he's a knight in the game, and all his subsequent book appearances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDBUpUtc52w

7:50

Yeah, they say he will be a valuable member of the Jedi Order, but they never call him a master.

He was easily Master level, and Master experience, but all the Force power in the universe won't make you a Master. Luke has to decide that you're ready.

Originally posted by KingD19
He was easily Master level, and Master experience, but all the Force power in the universe won't make you a Master. Luke has to decide that you're ready.


What the hell are you blabbing about? What exactly made Rosh a "master" in anything?

What the hell are you blabbing on about??? I was talking about Jaden. DURR!!!!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the hell are you blabbing about? What exactly made Rosh a "master" in anything?

And Jaden defeated the spirit of one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time, resisted the oh so tempting call of the Dark Side, defeated opponents who were supposed to be many times stronger than him, Tavion included, and he mastered the Force, all of his in game Force powers are considered canon, so ya know, stuff like 400x Force Speed and all that. Plus he was a master swordsman, yadda yadda.

Originally posted by KingD19
And Jaden defeated the spirit of one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time, resisted the oh so tempting call of the Dark Side, defeated opponents who were supposed to be many times stronger than him, Tavion included, and he mastered the Force, all of his in game Force powers are considered canon, so ya know, stuff like 400x Force Speed and all that. Plus he was a master swordsman, yadda yadda.

Yes, a spirit inside an inferior body with unknown powers and abilities. A spirit who has been dormant for 5,000 years.

What the hell is "mastered the force"?
What does resisting the dark side have to do with being a master?
Prove the opponents were supposed to be many times stronger than him.
Prove he was a master swordsman.
Prove all of those powers in the game are canon(you can't).

So far you have absolutely dick for your "argument".

It doesn't matter how long a spirit is dormant, that doesn't make it any less dangerous.

He mastered all of his core abilities, and because Katarn was his Master, he learned both light and dark side powers as well. Balance in the Force, Katarn made a reference if you mastered all your powers in the game.

Most padawans/knights would fall if someone they considered to be their friend, betrayed and tried to kill them. It takes a high level of wisdom, etc.. to not do that.

He was a jedi fighting Acolytes infused with pure dark side energy directly from the Staff of Ragnos. And almost always he was fighting more than one at a time.

He was a master of the middle stance(New Age)

And if you want prove, how bout you go read the New Essential Chronology Reference Book???

I read it, and I know what I'm saying, you have dick for your argument.

Originally posted by KingD19
It doesn't matter how long a spirit is dormant, that doesn't make it any less dangerous.
This is false.


This is false. IF you don't understand that gameplay mechanics aren't canon, then I can't help you.

Most padawans/knights would fall if someone they considered to be their friend, betrayed and tried to kill them. It takes a high level of wisdom, etc.. to not do that.


What does "infused with pure dark side energy" mean?


This is retarded.


I have the NEC. Jaden's name is mentioned in one sentence, as a "jedi Knight". Next time you try bluffing, I suggest you actually possess the source material and make sure that I don't.



Right..
http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypics/e/ownedgpas.jpg

All right so he was a Jedi Knight...but still it does not make him any less skilled.

these things are not true KingD19. You can't count any of his game abilities that you could choose to use or not as mastered.

Force Speed simply means a Jedi moving faster than he could before, and gives you no gauge of how fast he was moving, so in the respect that the force enhances his speed, that makes Jaden no better than EVERY OTHER jedi.

Plus, you said he mastered his core abilities. Prove that. For instance, if you switch characters, (via cheat code of course) you find that the models for Katarn, Luke, Desann, and I believe Tavion all have a base 200 level of force use. (While Jaden constantly has 100) So even in those core abilities, his ability to continue those attacks is HALF those of his enemies.

Finally:

Spirit of Ragnos==Ragnos is silly. Not even worth bringing up really.

Originally posted by Advent
Allankles, we do know the effects of Force Stasis; it freezes the victim in place with a visible force field. It's outright visually demonstrated in KotOR and KotOR 2, both in cutscenes. According to the canon policy, cutscenes are canon. Contrary to what you've been suggesting, Force Stasis is its own power; it's not stunned as in after a Force Lightning attack. I'm not even sure your "talking bobblehead" argument holds any water either; do we ever see this happening on any occasion? Not to mention, you're associating dialogue choices that -in no way- alter the actions shown the cutscene, and are therefore irrelevant.



I think you need to play Kotor 1 again. Malak uses a force attack that seemingly nauseates Revan. I know force stasis it has a different animation in Kotor. He "stuns" Revan he doesn't freeze him in place. Same thing with Nihilus in Kotor 2. I hope we're not debating whatever powers these characters are given in D & D support sources, just demonstrated power & skill.


Originally posted by Advent
Force Stasis is essentially Force Stun that allows up to three targets to be affected. The part about Stasis being a separate power/upgrade would be the game mechanic.

Except force stun as effected by Malak and Nihilus didn't freeze anyone in place. It seemingly affected their equilibrium, there was no visible force field involved.

You've lost. Learn how to accept it, otherwise you'll continue to embarrass yourself.

You've said as much already, the evidence (as per usual) is against you.

Originally posted by Allankles
You've said as much already, the evidence (as per usual) is against you.

Sorry, your argument has been defeated by 3 people. Move along.

Originally posted by Allankles
I think you need to play Kotor 1 again. Malak uses a force attack that seemingly nauseates Revan. I know force stasis it has a different animation in Kotor. He "stuns" Revan he doesn't freeze him in place. Same thing with Nihilus in Kotor 2. I hope we're not debating whatever powers these characters are given in D & D support sources, just demonstrated power & skill.




Except force stun as effected by Malak and Nihilus didn't freeze anyone in place. It seemingly affected their equilibrium, there was no visible force field involved. ?? There was a blue "force field" freezing revan in place.

Cake.

Below

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sorry, your argument has been defeated by 3 people. Move along.

I was arguing force stun i.e. kotor 2. You were arguing stun and stasis are the same, they aren't.

And as far as this battle is concerned the stasis in kotor was clearly a gameplay mechanic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXEsFSwHWfI&feature=related

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
?? There was a blue "force field" freezing revan in place.

True, I was thinking of force stun (stasis and stun were both clearly distinguished in both Kotors contrary to what Beef said).

In the case of Malak in Kotor, it seems to be a gameplay cue using a simple d&d influenced power, it was in keeping with the limited combat system in place in kotor.

Originally posted by Allankles
I was arguing force stun i.e. kotor 2. You were arguing stun and stasis are the same, they aren't.

And as far as this battle is concerned the stasis in kotor was clearly a gameplay mechanic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXEsFSwHWfI&feature=related

Sucks to be you. Stasis is an upgrade of stun. Stasis is canon force ability used by many sith/jedi of the old republic, including Malak. For the millionth time, you lose.

Stun is not an upgrade on stasis. With Stasis there's force field or force bubble surrounding the target according to the source your referencing (see Kotor 1).

Stun (like Nihilus's attack in Kotor 2) causes a dizziness and doesn't involve any kind of force field or bubble. There's a clear distinction, I was talking about that force stun.

Revan suffered similar effects (force stun) at the hands of the mad Sith Master on Korriban, regardless it is a d&d gimmick imposed upon the game as a compromise, it's not worth debating over e.g. force whirl wind (which is basically tk and shouldn't be a technique on its own).

It has no demonstrated combat effectiveness as shown by Malak (which makes it even less debate worthy). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXEsFSwHWfI&feature=related

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sucks to be you. Stasis is an upgrade of stun. Stasis is canon force ability used by many sith/jedi of the old republic, including Malak. For the millionth time, you lose.

Yes I read it the first time. You're arguing semantics I was arguing effects. By Stun I wasn't referring to the force field/freezing power. Kavar and Malak used that in Kotor I'm aware.

I was talking about Nihilus "stunning" effect, as well as a similar occurrence with Revan in Kotor (although that was under different circumstances).

You shouldn't have brought it up without understanding what I was arguing in the first place and I should have cleared the confusion a while ago.

As a combat move, Malak felt he needed to retreat even after landing it, so it's not really something we should debate.

I need to replay KotOR because I was right about Force Stasis being its own power and an effective one, at that? That sure makes a whopping load of sense. Let's not lose sight of what I was replying to; your unsupported assumptions: 1) despite the fact it happened in a cutscene (canon according to the policy), it was "gameplay", 2) "talking bobbleheads LOL!" (care to point out where this ever occurs, btw?), and 3) we don't know what Force Stasis does, among other inanities such as "it's Dungeons & Dragons!".

All of which were debunked, weren't elaborated upon, or were plainly left out to dry in your replies.



FXEsFSwHWfI

6:33 - Malak puts both Carth and Bastila in a stasis with a visible force field.

7:57 - Malak puts Revan in the same stasis with a visible force field.

It's Force Stasis on both accounts. What was your point again? Even if he doesn't use Stasis on Revan (he does obviously), that doesn't change the fact he used it on Carth and Bastila.



Malak, in the same Youtube link you provided, demonstrates on screen the ability to use Force Stasis. Therefore, it's a demonstrated power. QED.

Originally posted by Allankles
As a combat move, Malak felt he needed to retreat even after landing it, so it's not really something we should debate.

I had no clue that you were actually Darth Malak in disguise; how else could you know what Malak felt! It wasn't you (Malak) who felt you (he) needed to retreat; you were (he was) toying with them the entire time. If you recall, Carth Onasi outright states that even the three of them combined (Bastila, Revan) don't stand a snowball's chance in hell against you (Malak).

As a combat move, freezing the opponent in place is certainly viable; even Force Stun should prove to be effective. It would provide an opening.

Originally posted by Advent
I need to replay KotOR because I was right about Force Stasis being its own power and an effective one, at that? That sure makes a whopping load of sense. Let's not lose sight of what I was replying to; your unsupported assumptions: 1) despite the fact it happened in a cutscene (canon according to the policy), it was "gameplay", 2) "talking bobbleheads LOL!" (care to point out where this ever occurs, btw?), and 3) we don't know what Force Stasis does, among other inanities such as "it's Dungeons & Dragons!".

All of which were debunked, weren't elaborated upon, or were plainly left out to dry in your replies.



FXEsFSwHWfI

6:33 - Malak puts both Carth and Bastila in a stasis with a visible force field.

7:57 - Malak puts Revan in the same stasis with a visible force field.

It's Force Stasis on both accounts. What was your point again? Even if he doesn't use Stasis on Revan (he does obviously), that doesn't change the fact he used it on Carth and Bastila.



Malak, in the same Youtube link you provided, demonstrates on screen the ability to use Force Stasis. Therefore, it's a demonstrated power. QED.



I had no clue that you were actually Darth Malak in disguise; how else could you know what Malak felt! It wasn't you (Malak) who felt you (he) needed to retreat; you were (he was) toying with them the entire time. If you recall, Carth Onasi outright states that even the three of them combined (Bastila, Revan) don't stand a snowball's chance in hell against you (Malak).

As a combat move, freezing the opponent in place is certainly viable; even Force Stun should prove to be effective. It would provide an opening.


Owned.

Wheres your typical owned picture hunny?

Originally posted by Advent
Let's not lose sight of what I was replying to; your unsupported assumptions: 1) despite the fact it happened in a cutscene (canon according to the policy), it was "gameplay", 2) "talking bobbleheads LOL!" (care to point out where this ever occurs, btw?), and 3) we don't know what Force Stasis does, among other inanities such as "it's Dungeons & Dragons!".

All of which were debunked, weren't elaborated upon, or were plainly left out to dry in your replies.


It appears people don't like reading posts, I even separated my words after every 3rd line or so to make reading easy. I already mentioned I was talking about something else. e.g. the groggy animations in both games (Nihilus vs Exile, and Revan with the old Sith master).

I was arguing something else entirely, I already acknowledged as much in my previous post. You and Saxy are so eager to call me out on bs without recognizing that I was referring to something unrelated to Stasis, I misinterpreted your statement.

if i had known you were talking about Malak's tame force bubble I wouldn't be talking about bobbleheads.

As far as its relevance as a combat effective force power for Malak that's another matter. If we want to call canon on the cut scene then it should be pointed that it proved ineffectual for Malak, other than letting him deliver a monologue and retreat.

The reason I disagreed with your initial claim advent was because I thought you were talking about some potent attack Malak used.

The only time Revan was at the mercy of his opponent was when he faced the Sith master on Korriban, and I thought that I'd forgotten something when you mentioned that Malak could stun Jaden.

The Exile was put in a similar state by Nihilus. Malak never did the same to Revan, he talked and retreated.

Originally posted by Advent
I had no clue that you were actually Darth Malak in disguise; how else could you know what Malak felt! It wasn't you (Malak) who felt you (he) needed to retreat; you were (he was) toying with them the entire time. If you recall, Carth Onasi outright states that even the three of them combined (Bastila, Revan) don't stand a snowball's chance in hell against you (Malak).

As a combat move, freezing the opponent in place is certainly viable; even Force Stun should prove to be effective. It would provide an opening.

And Carth Onasi would know, considering he wasn't even in the fight? You know you're actually calling PIS on Malak? Why would Revan need PIS for Malak?

Unless the real reason for its use was as a gameplay cue using the available (but limited) combat system to give a means for Malak to retreat or deal with several combatants without the battle looking especially awkward or unconvincing?

Note: I'm not debating canon, and I wasn't doing it before by pointing out kotor's d&d influences.

Originally posted by Allankles
It appears people don't like reading posts, I even separated my words after every 3rd line or so to make reading easy.

Please, Allankles. As you can see here, your rambling triple posts simply go on to submit that you didn't understand what you were addressing in the first place. If you bothered to read anything I wrote beforehand, you wouldn't have tried to contest it.

What I'm wondering most is, how "groggy animations" via Force Stun are relevant to Force Stasis; something I described as aesthetically different from Force Stun. You didn't explain how the language I used caused your confusion.



So, you quoted my post about Force Stasis (on two occasions), to respond to something completely unrelated to Force Stasis? I don't quite understand that, but it's quite alright.



Ineffectual, can you support that at all? Hint: No. Bastila Shan, who's willpower topples nigh everyone of her era, was shown to be frozen for the several minutes it takes to duel Malak and unlock the door.

Watch 7:13 in that Youtube video, Malak doesn't even use Force Stasis on Revan when he leaves during their first encounter, it's Force Whirlwind; he intended for Revan to follow (*duh!* It's the PC). Afterwards, at 7:57, Revan is put in a stasis until at least 8:20+. If you notice, Malak charges Bastila while Revan is still stuck in a stasis, completely vulnerable with no way of defending himself. It's actually Revan and Carth who retreat while Bastila saves him by engaging Malak.

Malak could have very easily killed Revan, Bastila, or Carth. If it weren't for Bastila, Revan would have died. It is an extremely potent attack.



Yes, Carth Onasi would know. Bastila knew. Revan knew. And Malak himself knew it. Bastila goes on to sacrifice herself so that Revan could make his escape; Revan and Carth agree that they can't take him hence leaving her behind. I'm in no way calling plot-induced stupidity on anything, perhaps you are, but you'll need to prove up.



You've yet to explain how the D&D system is relevant to cutscenes, though. Giving an answer to your own question about PIS doesn't help much without laying down the groundwork. Despite providing the link to the video and my embedding it here, it appears that you're still not even sure what happened in the cutscene. You should review it carefully first; then formulate your opinion.

Originally posted by Advent
Ineffectual, can you support that at all? Hint: No. Bastila Shan, who's willpower topples nigh everyone of her era, was shown to be frozen for the several minutes it takes to duel Malak and unlock the door.

Ineffectual because Malak has several seconds (more than enough time to swing a saber) yet he chooses not to, your basically calling it PIS.

Originally posted by Advent
Afterwards, at 7:57, Revan is put in a stasis until at least 8:20+. If you notice, Malak charges Bastila while Revan is still stuck in a stasis, completely vulnerable with no way of defending himself.

You're calling it PIS? Because Revan was "helpless" for a quite a while before Bastila ever shows up. You're saying Malak was operating on CIS and PIS, a weak argument. Like the people who argue Maul "would've killed Obi Wan" forgetting that it was as much a display of skill and power from Obi Wan as much as it was a momentary lapse from Maul.

Malak had a 10+ second lapse according to you, if your theory is true. Which means it's CIS or simply PIS to you, which somewhat diminishes Revan's eventual victory.

Originally posted by Advent
Malak could have very easily killed Revan, Bastila, or Carth. If it weren't for Bastila, Revan would have died. It is an extremely potent attack.

He could've? Why didn't he? This is the guy who was deathly afraid of Revan, no reason why he wouldn't have killed him in the time he had, unless he thought that force stasis wasn't going to get him anywhere. Even before Bastila shows up he has the time.



Originally posted by Advent
Yes, Carth Onasi would know. Bastila knew. Revan knew. And Malak himself knew it.

Addressed above, I don't think it even classifies as CIS, knowing Malak's fear of Revan.

Jaden

e9oTHXBgcfk vs

Malak

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You have to assume a lot of things to have Malak winning e.g. force stasis actually affecting the battle. Otherwise Jaden has the superior showings of combat skill.

Jaden doesn't have superior showings in combat. He's a padawan who lacks any kind of force mastery on the level of Malak.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Jaden doesn't have superior showings in combat. He's a padawan who lacks any kind of force mastery on the level of Malak. Technically he's a Knight.

Originally posted by mattatom
Technically he's a Knight.

Only by the end of the game.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Only by the end of the game. True but then, If you want to argue that, Malak was only an apprentice at the beginning of KOTOR.

Actually Malak was already the DLOTS by the beginning of KOTOR. Not that it matters, Jaden doesn't have anything on him.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Actually Malak was already the DLOTS by the beginning of KOTOR. Not that it matters, Jaden doesn't have anything on him. Just cos your a DLOTS doesn't mean your not an apprentice under the RoT theres always a master and an apprentice since Revan was the master that delegates Malak as the apprentice DLOTS or not. I agree though Jadens gunna get "WTFPWNED in Cyberspace".

Originally posted by mattatom
Just cos your a DLOTS doesn't mean your not an apprentice under the RoT theres always a master and an apprentice since Revan was the master that delegates Malak as the apprentice DLOTS or not. I agree though Jadens gunna get "WTFPWNED in Cyberspace".

I think you misunderstand. There was no rule of two during Revan's time. Although Revan created the idea, it wasn't actually happening in his empire, I don't think. Not to mention, Malak became the new DLOTS when he betrayed Revan..

Nonetheless there were two, so it works . The only other sith were dark jedi and they were around in Sidious's time and Bane's. So it works. I know he betrayed Revan but nonetheless he was still an apprentice for that period oft time before he shot at his masters ship, though he never actually killed him so wasn't Revans till technically the master?

The Rule of Two kind of existed in Revan's time. There was one master and an apprentice sans the dual Dark Lord status. There was just a f*ckload of Sithly minions under them.

Once again, by KOTOR Malak was already a DLOTS.

Malak totally takes this. Granted, information on both it limited, but they aren't total unknowns. Malak had 20 years of formal Jedi training. He was an exceptional student (not prodigy, but said to have been much above average). He then goes and fights in the war. Yeah, he took out Revan without fighting him, but Palpatine did the same thing to Plagueis; it's called being smart. Malak then is powerful enough to keep hundreds of Sith underneath him and control the SF. He is pretty legit. Nothing top tier, but still legit.

Jaden on the other hand has maybe half the experience Malak has. Jaden was stated to be above average also, but that's out of like 300 Jedi in Luke's Order as opposed to thousands in the one Malak was in. He fought some weakass Force users, but I don't consider that all to impressive. He also survived the Vong war. Big deal, but so did over a hundred other Jedi. We never see him doing anything impressive during the Vong war.

Basically, Malak wins in my book.

Seconded. And to add to that: Jaden was considered above average out of less than 100. The Order only reached the big double-0 by the time the Yuuzhan Vong invaded in 25 ABY. The Disciples of Ragnos Crisis circa 14 ABY would have yielded an even smaller pool for Jaden to be compared against.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Seconded. And to add to that: Jaden was considered above average out of less than 100. The Order only reached the big double-0 by the time the Yuuzhan Vong inavded in 25 ABY. The Disciples of Ragnos Crisis circa 14 ABY would have yielded an even smaller pool for Jaden to be compared against. Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Seconded. And to add to that: Jaden was considered above average out of less than 100. The Order only reached the big double-0 by the time the Yuuzhan Vong invaded in 25 ABY. The Disciples of Ragnos Crisis circa 14 ABY would have yielded an even smaller pool for Jaden to be compared against. Fixed

Omg, Lucien made a typo! Burn him at the stake!!

Quick on the edit button though, he's the Clint Eastwood of KMC.

Fixed what now?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Fixed what now? I find your lack of slyness disturbing. Already quoted, your coverup has been noticed!

I claim post-tampering. I'll see you hanged burned at the stake get what's coming to you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I claim post-tampering. I'll see you hanged burned at the stake get what's coming to you. THEN YOU ARE LOST! No but seriously you typoed, don't forget it.

It's not first time, and won't be the lsat.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not first time, and won't be the lsat. Funny. Try bringing a Sat Nav with you

Pie.

Am I the only one who doesn't like pie? Everyone I speak to calls me a freak because of it.


Well not just because of that.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Jaden doesn't have superior showings in combat. He's a padawan who lacks any kind of force mastery on the level of Malak.


He does have that lightsaber bout with Alora which shows a lot more combat skills than Malak has demonstrated. On top of beating Tavion and Ragnos at the same time. And taking down the Kothos twins and his fellow padawan at the same time (we can assume) without the use of force stasis.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract


Jaden on the other hand has maybe half the experience Malak has. Jaden was stated to be above average also, but that's out of like 300 Jedi in Luke's Order as opposed to thousands in the one Malak was in. He fought some weakass Force users, but I don't consider that all to impressive. He also survived the Vong war. Big deal, but so did over a hundred other Jedi. We never see him doing anything impressive during the Vong war.

Basically, Malak wins in my book.

You'd be wrong on that count. Jaden has by now well over 3 decades as a Jedi. In those 30+ years he stopped the Ragnos crisis, and has been a veteran of two huge wars. I'd say he has more experience than Malak.

He's also going to be in more battles in Crosscurrent.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Seconded. And to add to that: Jaden was considered above average out of less than 100. The Order only reached the big double-0 by the time the Yuuzhan Vong invaded in 25 ABY. The Disciples of Ragnos Crisis circa 14 ABY would have yielded an even smaller pool for Jaden to be compared against.

I don't see how numbers matter, feats count for a lot more. How many young knights or padawans would have been able to achieve what Jaden achieved in the Ragnos crisis? Not too many I'd wager, and those Jedi would be among the elite of the elite.

Malak at the same relative age (pre Mando wars) was nowhere near as powerful.

EDIT: Scratch that, he wasn't as powerful during the Mando Wars - going by the Kotor comics.

Originally posted by Allankles
He does have that lightsaber bout with Alora which shows a lot more combat skills than Malak has demonstrated. On top of beating Tavion and Ragnos at the same time. And taking down the Kothos twins and his fellow padawan at the same time (we can assume) without the use of force stasis.

A lot more combat skills? Prove Alora was worth a damn? Stop claiming Tavion AND Ragnos. There's nothing to suggest anyone in the JA game was anything other than average, with the exception of Luke and Kyle.

Originally posted by Allankles
You'd be wrong on that count. Jaden has by now well over 3 decades as a Jedi. In those 30+ years he stopped the Ragnos crisis, and has been a veteran of two huge wars. I'd say he has more experience than Malak.

He's also going to be in more battles in Crosscurrent.

A veteran of war against the vong? Prove what, if ANYTHING, Jaden did during the war. Simply saying he lived through the war doesn't make him experienced. And I would take a Jedi vs. Sith War as experience over a war against beings not felt in the force anyday. His experience, even though he's twice Malak's age, is lacking compared to Malak.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't see how numbers matter, feats count for a lot more. How many young knights or padawans would have been able to achieve what Jaden achieved in the Ragnos crisis? Not too many I'd wager, and those Jedi would be among the elite of the elite.

Malak at the same relative age (pre Mando wars) was nowhere near as powerful.

EDIT: Scratch that, he wasn't as powerful during the Mando Wars - going by the Kotor comics.

And Malak as a DLOTS has more experience, mastery, and knowledge of the force than Jaden has at twice his age.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
A lot more combat skills? Prove Alora was worth a damn? Stop claiming Tavion AND Ragnos. There's nothing to suggest anyone in the JA game was anything other than average, with the exception of Luke and Kyle.

I provided a video. Her two bladed lightsaber skills were impressive enough. Why do I have to prove anything when I have a video presentation/ Demonstrated skill says Malak has nothing. He loses by default.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
A veteran of war against the vong? Prove what, if ANYTHING, Jaden did during the war. Simply saying he lived through the war doesn't make him experienced. And I would take a Jedi vs. Sith War as experience over a war against beings not felt in the force anyday. His experience, even though he's twice Malak's age, is lacking compared to Malak.

Prove what, that he participated in the war? He is a confirmed participant in the war.

And Jaden has already been in the front lines against several dark side users, how many battles against Jedi did Malak fight? Jaden fought several dark side cultists, even 3 on 1 at some point and prevailed.

The Reborn were foot soldiers for the Ragnos cultists, Malak never fought Jedi like this, he commanded and ordered others from an armchair.

Seems you're exaGgerating things, there's no evidence that Malak was in the front lines in the JCW.

EDIT: As far as Malak's dark side mastery goes, Jaden already has a victory over one of the greatest Sith Lords, and this while still a very young (possibly early 20's or even late teens) jedi knight.

He's had 30 years since to improve his combat abilities, as we'll discover in Crosscurrent.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And Malak as a DLOTS has more experience, mastery, and knowledge of the force than Jaden has at twice his age.

Too bad Jaden has better feats while still almost a decade younger than the DLOTS Malak.

Originally posted by Allankles
Too bad Jaden has better feats while still almost a decade younger than the DLOTS Malak.

Too bad he doesn't. You lose... Again..

Originally posted by Allankles
I provided a video. Her two bladed lightsaber skills were impressive enough. Why do I have to prove anything when I have a video presentation/ Demonstrated skill says Malak has nothing. He loses by default.

You've lost this argument on 50 different occasions. I continue to entertain your posts because I have nothing to do this minute.

Feat Wars are meaningless. Unless you can put the feats into context, they're not proof of superiority. None of the opponents that Jaden faced were remotely as powerful as a Dark Lord of the Sith like Malak. He studied under Revan, and gained complete access to the entirety of their Sith Empire's knowledge (from Korriban and Malachor V). Alora and Tavion aren't competition; they're small fries. The only person that Jaden has faced on the level of someone like Malak would be Ragnos; even then, with an already beaten and weakened Tavion as his spirit's host, he wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as he was in his own actual flesh.

Originally posted by Allankles
Ineffectual because Malak has several seconds (more than enough time to swing a saber) yet he chooses not to

Allankles, you're not making any sense whatsoever. If Malak chose not to kill Revan, that obviously means he could have chose to kill him. That doesn't make it ineffectual. Ineffectual would mean it didn't have an effect on the opponent or leave the user in an advantageous position. Force Stasis is effective because it freezes the victim in place, making them unable to attack or defend; they are completely vulnerable. Your reason for calling it ineffectual is based on nothing, really.


Originally posted by Advent
I'm in no way calling plot-induced stupidity on anything, perhaps you are, but you'll need to prove up.

Weren't you the one who criticized others for not reading through your posts? Good going.

I'm not calling it plot-induced stupidity. I'm wondering if you even have any idea of what the concept means since this is the second time you've said that I'm labeling it PIS. Malak talking down Revan while he's unable to move isn't classified as PIS; it might be if we assumed that Revan could do something about it, but he couldn't (therefore, no imminent threat). It might be PIS if Malak was known to be the type who didn't talk a lot, but he isn't (therefore, he didn't do something out of character). It might be PIS if Bastila didn't arrive on the scene, but she did (therefore, stopping any killing blow). It might even be PIS if Malak didn't believe he was much more powerful than Revan, but he did (therefore, no harm in letting him go). It isn't plot-induced stupidity by any standard.

We see Malak trash-talking for a moment after Bastila shows up, he ends up wasting time enough so that Bastila does a saber throw. He has to deal with her. So, it isn't something out of the ordinary or something that frankly couldn't happen or be explained rationally.



...Right round, baby, right round like a record, baby. Right round, round, round.



Strawman argument, logical fallacy, and a weak argument.



Except you can't equate the two. That is, what Kenobi did and what Maul didn't do. Had Maul not sat there, literally watching Obi-Wan's every move, and not reacting as he normally would, then Obi-Wan would never have killed him. Therefore, it's not "as much a display from Obi-Wan" as it was the fact that Maul just took it lying down. Hell, Zett Jukassa could do the same thing assuming Maul just stands there.

Also, you can't equate the two. That is, TPM and KotOR. In Maul's case, as I said above, he doesn't do anything while he just watches Obi-Wan kill him. In Malak's case, as I said above, he talks to Revan and is thus interrupted after his first two sentences. The latter has a legitimate reason for not acting.



Can you stop twisting my words around, please? It's grown to be an annoyance since it's happening rather frequently with you. I never said Malak had a "lapse" of anything. What I did say was that Malak had Revan in Force Stasis for almost twenty seconds. That demonstrates the effectiveness of Force Stasis. And, in those twenty seconds, he's actually doing something that's normal for his character or any character; i.e., reacting to the situation. Ergo, you can stop the "BUT ADVENT YOU'RE CALLIN' IT PISS LOL!" ridiculousness, because I'm not since it wasn't.



This is yet another occasion where you need to take your own advice: replay KotOR. Or take mine: watch the Youtube video that you provided.

Whichever you decide, you'll end up realizing that he didn't because Bastila Shan ends up interrupting him, causing him to put Revan on hold. And I have to ask, are you suggesting that Malak couldn't have killed Revan in that state? If that's the case, then you should know the the only way that could be true is if Force Stasis made the victim invulnerable (and it doesn't, therefore I'm right by default).



"But even the three of you together cannot stand against my power!" - said while Revan was stuck in a Force Stasis, at Malak's mercy. That sure sounds like a frightened child terrified by the boogeyman.

"Deathly afraid of"? Not in the least bit. If Malak were deathly afraid of Revan, he wouldn't have confronted him face-to-face on the Leviathan, prepared to duel. Malak outright admits that he didn't fear Revan; he would've fought him for the mantle of Dark Lord of Sith, but an opportunity arose and he took it. This is why he acknowledges that he doesn't care what his underlings of the Sith Empire thought of his actions. There's jack-all to suggest Malak feared Revan, especially since -at that point- there was nothing to fear. If there was: prove up.



The reason was outright shown in the cutscene. It was explained by me. For there to be "no reason", Malak would have had to just stand there with a blank look on his face, not doing anything. Perhaps then, you'd have a point. Unfortunately for you, he didn't and you don't.



Pardon? Oh, you must be confused again. Here's what I was responding to:


Originally posted by Allankles
And Carth Onasi would know, considering he wasn't even in the fight?
Originally posted by Advent
Yes, Carth Onasi would know. Bastila knew. Revan knew. And Malak himself knew it. Bastila goes on to sacrifice herself so that Revan could make his escape; Revan and Carth agree that they can't take him hence leaving her behind.

You didn't address it, because you know that you're dead wrong in trying to question it. Everyone on the Leviathan knew that Malak was too powerful to be dealt with at that time; this is why Carth and Revan leave Bastila behind. This is why Bastila comes to rescue; she holds off Malak so the rest of the party could escape ("her sacrifice". So, besides the fact that it proves Malak was toying with them -- which supports my point about Malak not caring if Revan escapes -- it also proves that there was no reason for Malak to fear Revan, as you suggest.

...Right round, baby, right round like a record, baby. Right round, round, round.

ROFL!! Absolutely priceless

And Jaden is actually on par if not better than Kyle is he not? Personally I say he'd win for the pure fact that he has more actual feats (and better ones at that) that are quantifiable. Jaden fought through hordes of Darksiders and then beat Tavion and then Ragnos/Kyle. Malak's best feat is defeating 3 people who'd just been tortured till they passed out and then fought through a battleship.

Not to mention that during the Mando wars he practically had 'Punching bag' tatooed on his forehead.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Jaden is actually on par if not better than Kyle is he not? Personally I say he'd win for the pure fact that he has more actual feats (and better ones at that) that are quantifiable. Jaden fought through hordes of Darksiders and then beat Tavion and then Ragnos/Kyle. Malak's best feat is defeating 3 people who'd just been tortured till they passed out and then fought through a battleship.
On par with Kyle? Where did you get this nonsense from? Oh, you must be referring to the dark side ending which is non canon. Wonderful. Jaden has never faced anyone on the level of Malak, while Malak was powerful enough to face Bastila while Revan was in a stasis field. Sorry, you have no case.

That was unnecessarily brusque.

Is it? Just because something is canonally the preferred way of an event taking place doesn't mean that nothing applies if it happened the other way (if that makes sense). Basically, Jaden showed that he was capable of beating Katarn, even if he might not have. Plus I seem to recall Tavion pimpslapping Kyle around, before Jaden pwned her ass.



Your not going to say 'Malak was a Sith Lawd so was obvioubly teh Uberz' are you?



No he wasn't, he was 'strong' enough to stasis a very weak, inexperienced Revan, run towards Bastila and the we see Revan unstasis'ed talking to Carth. Plus that wasn't a cut scene, so the stasis that he used, used a timer for how long it lasted, which we know from ROT isn't how stasis works, so we have no idea how long he actually held it on for.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is it? Just because something is canonally the preferred way of an event taking place doesn't mean that nothing applies if it happened the other way (if that makes sense). Basically, Jaden showed that he was capable of beating Katarn, even if he might not have. Plus I seem to recall Tavion pimpslapping Kyle around, before Jaden pwned her ass.
I really don't think you understand how canon works. If it's n-canon, it doesn't happen, nor is there ANY reason to think that it should. It's completely illogical. Don't bring up the obvious again. And Tavion pimpslapped Kyle around when Kyle came to Jaden's rescue, and while Rosh was lying there. Hardly meaningful especially when according to canon, Kyle made Tavion his ***** the first time.




Don't need to. His force knowledge and mastery exceed anything Jaden has done to the point where no further debate is necessary.




Prove Revan was very weak and inexperienced.. And yes, when Revan was in stasis, it was a cut scene. You don't have an argument, move on.

Maybe it's you who doesn't know how canon works. Until someone actually says 'Jaden Korr was lightsided and fought Ragnos, not Kyle Katarn', (which I don't think has happened yet) then there is the possibility that Jaden was darksided (I know he's later referred to as a Jedi Knight but he could easily have been brought back by Kyle) and beat Kyle. Cannonally Jaden was lightside, not definately, just like Revan was canonally lightside, not definately.



How do those things factor in at all? From what I remember, she first attacks him from behind (meaning she'd have to overwhelm his forsight), then he tries to stand up and fight her, at which point she pimpslap's him back down. Note that he has enough energy to hold up a ceiling afterards so he obviously wasn't too weak to fight back, she just overpowered him.



Yeah and she couldn't possibly have gotten stronger since then.



What force knowledge and mastery. Malak was a glorified brute, he's never shown evidence of high force knowledge beyond basic, common attacks. Jaden on the other hand beat Ragnos, who was known to have those two things.



Well for starters Revan was pretty obviously weak considering she'd just been tortured till she passed out, had to fight her way to the bridge and then to Malak, I'd hardly say she was at her peak at that point. And I can't prove a negative, its up to you to prove Revan had any training at all at that point beyond sparring with Bastila and basic telekinesis.

And maybe I misspoke, what I meant was that it was a cut scene based on game mechanics, where force attacks like stasis etc have preset times. I know becuase frequently I've had shields etc set up and the timer still goes through the scenes, wearing off in the middle. I've actually done that bit and had stasis wear off half way through while I was in the toilet, so no, he didn't 'fight' Bastila while stasising revan at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I can't prove a negative

If that's the case, you can't prove this sentence is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe it's you who doesn't know how canon works. Until someone actually says 'Jaden Korr was lightsided and fought Ragnos, not Kyle Katarn', (which I don't think has happened yet) then there is the possibility that Jaden was darksided (I know he's later referred to as a Jedi Knight but he could easily have been brought back by Kyle) and beat Kyle. Cannonally Jaden was lightside, not definately, just like Revan was canonally lightside, not definately.
Are you braindead? So they were light sided but not definitely? What the hell are you babbling about? GL has stated that the LS ending is the canonical one, meaning the dark side ending is n-canon, meaning it never happened nor should it be discussed. You can play semantics all you like but your posts are getting dumber by the hour.



Once again. Malak. Knowledge of the force/dark side that easily surpasses Jaden. Jaden's saber feats don't say much about him considering who he fought. You lose.




And the stupidity continues. I'd advise you to get RH or Eminence to bail you out of this shithole you've created, but they don't really post here.




Jacen defeated the spirit of ragnos who put himself into an average force user's body. The fact that you are consistently claiming that Jaden defeated Ragnos makes you sound stupid. Then again, I didn't know stasis field was a basic maneuver. Malak learned under Revan which meant he learned from Korriban and Malachor V. He was proficient in force lightning. That alone makes him superior to Jaden.




Considering the fact that Revan started regaining his memory about the time MAlak was talking to him, and there's nothing to suggest his abilities were "basic", you have no argument here. Shifting the burden of proof from your piss poor argument doesn't help you either.



Yea, you're done. Move along.

Originally posted by Advent
If that's the case, you can't prove this sentence is true.
Rofl.. I prefer "They were lightside but NOT definitely!!"

Indeed, if that were the case, Ragnos' scepter is still out there somewhere in the galaxy. He destroys it in the light side version. However, in the dark side ending, Jaden takes it with him after he uses it (not his own power) to beat Kyle, as I recall.

Originally posted by Advent
Indeed, if that were the case, Ragnos' scepter is still out there somewhere in the galaxy. He destroys it in the light side version. However, in the dark side ending, Jaden takes it with him after he uses it (not his own power) to beat Kyle, as I recall.

Yup.. But according to Exodus, nothing is definite. If that's the case, then we can start using DS vs. LS characters in our debates!

* drools on keyboard and starts to eat own vomit*



I'll want a quote on that becuase I'm pretty sure you just pulled that out of your ass.



Considering both of my posts were done within the hour....



What, you mean like Rosh Penin, the guy who was trained by Kyle Katarn, who would go on to be Battlemaster of the NJO? Or Tavion, who was trained by someone who stalemated Luke Skywalker? Or Marko Ragnos, undisputed leader of the Ancient Sith. Well hot dang! Those feats really do pale in comparison to Malak's lightsaber victories over............................................................................................................................................................................................................................... errr.... *mumbles*............. *trails off*



And yet Marko Ragnos was a being of immense experience, force knowledge and mastery, and I would hardly call the person who ragdolled Kyle Katarn merely average.



No it doesn't. There is absolutely nothing that can prove Revan taught Malak didly scwat. In fact, considering the evidence that the two clearly grew to loath each other, as well as Revan's documented views on the importance of not allowing an apprentice to be in a position to overcome his master, I thinks its unlikely that Revan actually did, especially considering they were fighting a freakin' galactic war at the time, which would hardly leave teaching time.

Heck by that logic, Bandon knew everything Revan did too, Vader knew everything Sidious did, The Exile knew everything Traya did, who passed it on the Atton, making Atton almost as knowledgable as Revan.



Everyone and my cat's proficient with Force Lightning. Hardly the stuff of legend, being able to do something everyone else can.



No she didn't, else why would she need to actually turn to Bastila and ask whether it was true or not, she'd remember.



And there's nothing to suggest it was anything but basic either. And perhaps the fact that Revan had weeks of actual study time, in which it was said she gained as much as some do in years puts her at the level of... a youngling.



Idiot says what?

Originally posted by Nephthys
* drools on keyboard and starts to eat own vomit*



I'll want a quote on that becuase I'm pretty sure you just pulled that out of your ass.



Considering both of my posts were done within the hour....



What, you mean like Rosh Penin, the guy who was trained by Kyle Katarn, who would go on to be Battlemaster of the NJO? Or Tavion, who was trained by someone who stalemated Luke Skywalker? Or Marko Ragnos, undisputed leader of the Ancient Sith. Well hot dang! Those feats really do pale in comparison to Malak's lightsaber victories over............................................................................................................................................................................................................................... errr.... *mumbles*............. *trails off*



And yet Marko Ragnos was a being of immense experience, force knowledge and mastery, and I would hardly call the person who ragdolled Kyle Katarn merely average.



No it doesn't. There is absolutely nothing that can prove Revan taught Malak didly scwat. In fact, considering the evidence that the two clearly grew to loath each other, as well as Revan's documented views on the importance of not allowing an apprentice to be in a position to overcome his master, I thinks its unlikely that Revan actually did, especially considering they were fighting a freakin' galactic war at the time, which would hardly leave teaching time.

Heck by that logic, Bandon knew everything Revan did too, Vader knew everything Sidious did, The Exile knew everything Traya did, who passed it on the Atton, making Atton almost as knowledgable as Revan.



Everyone and my cat's proficient with Force Lightning. Hardly the stuff of legend, being able to do something everyone else can.



No she didn't, else why would she need to actually turn to Bastila and ask whether it was true or not, she'd remember.



And there's nothing to suggest it was anything but basic either. And perhaps the fact that Revan had weeks of actual study time, in which it was said she gained as much as some do in years puts her at the level of... a youngling.



Idiot says what?

http://www.fallen-legion.eu/news/data/upimages/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

Yeah that's right, squirm out of facing me. Coward.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah that's right, squirm out of facing me. Coward.

There's nothing to face. Making your dumb arguments look even more ridiculous is almost automatic at this point. And I'm left speechless by your last post, hence the double facepalm. I don't want to take up Rex's bandwidth by addressing utter stupidity.

Which explains why you wrote out detailed, witty and highly intelligent answers to all my points. Y'know, rather than just pussying out.



Gee, your such a sensitive person.


Anyway, answer my points, or I'll be forced to flap my arms like a chicken and make clucking noises.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which explains why you wrote out detailed, witty and highly intelligent answers to all my points. Y'know, rather than just pussying out.
I wrote out enough to refute the nonsense that passes for your argument. To tell you the truth, not sure you could do any worse than your "he's not completely lightside" logic..



I'll tell you what.. I'll answer your valid points.
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Nope, couldn't find any.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I wrote out enough to refute the nonsense that passes for your argument. To tell you the truth, not sure you could do any worse than your "he's not completely lightside" logic.. (which I didn't actually say r-tard)



I'll tell you what.. I'll answer your valid points.
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Nope, couldn't find any.


*Sigh*

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/ga/ul/823009041041/inlineimg/Y/facepalm_implied.jpg

Christ not too much of a flame war going on here, i've just had a brief look and my eyebrows have been singed off!

Hey, I just wanted a proper debate, but nooooooo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hey, I just wanted a proper debate, but nooooooo. Yo your talking to DS mon, think straight.

Anybody can change.


Batman said it, so it is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anybody can change.


Batman said it, so it is true. Nah it isn't.

Hey DE, one thing: You said Rosh Penin became the Battle-Master of the Jedi Order.

IF that is true. (and you said it, not me) then LS ending is canon.

The end.

Too easy

No I didn't, I said that he was trained by Kyle Katarn, who (Kyle) went on to be the Battlemaster of the order.



For you? Becuase you actually did something? Or did you run away?

Originally posted by Nephthys
For you? Becuase you actually did something? Or did you run away?

Because I made it short and concise, and left right about the time you started with the retarded posts.

Originally posted by Advent
Feat Wars are meaningless. Unless you can put the feats into context, they're not proof of superiority. None of the opponents that Jaden faced were remotely as powerful as a Dark Lord of the Sith like Malak.

He fought Ragnos in a proper physical shell, Ragnos who was imbued with dark side power from several planets. Ragnos using his alchemically powered Sith sword in the body of a well trained dark Jedi. So feat wise Malak loses there as well.


Originally posted by Advent
Allankles, you're not making any sense whatsoever. If Malak chose not to kill Revan, that obviously means he could have chose to kill him.

Which boils down to PIS. There's no reason for not killing Revan if he could. I posted the video, Malak says his intention is to kill Revan one on one.

No one mentions Malak toying with them, in fact Revan could have continued the fight there and then but they still had the Star Forge to find, that's the only reason Revan didn't kill Malak on the Leviathan.


Originally posted by Advent
That doesn't make it ineffectual. Ineffectual would mean it didn't have an effect on the opponent or leave the user in an advantageous position.

Ineffectual because according to the game, Revan could have ended the contest on the Leviathan. The only reason Revan doesn't go after Malak there and then is his mission to find the Star Forge. If not for Carth, Revan kills Malak on the Leviathan.

The only thing saying Malak is too tuff is Malak himself, tooting his own horn (which means nothing).


Originally posted by Advent
I'm not calling it plot-induced stupidity. I'm wondering if you even have any idea of what the concept means since this is the second time you've said that I'm labeling it PIS.

I didn't mean that you were categorically calling it PIS. But anytime someone turns to the "could've", "would've" approach they're basically appealing to the plot or CIS as a primary excuse for why Character x didn't do what they think they should've done.

Nothing in that entire fight suggests that Malak could've or would've killed Revan. The only one saying he could was Malak himself, seems he still had confidence issues.

I posted the video up and you still managed to reason that Malak was "toying" with them when he showed no such intentions (he couldn't "toy" with Revan even if he wanted to).

EDIT: Meanwhile Jaden as a late teen is pwning a dark side infused Marka Ragnos.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Because I made it short and concise, and ran away right about the time you started with the retarded posts.

Fixed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Fixed.

Touche. When getting your ass kicked, make sure to edit quotes

Originally posted by Allankles
He fought Ragnos in a proper physical shell, Ragnos who was imbued with dark side power from several planets. Ragnos using his alchemically powered Sith sword in the body of a well trained dark Jedi. So feat wise Malak loses there as well.





Which is basically boils down to PIS. There's no reason for not killing Revan if he could. I posted the video, Malak says his intention is to kill Revan one on one.

No one mentions Malak toying with them, in fact Revan could have continued the fight there and then but they still had the Star Forge to find, that's the only reason Revan didn't kill Malak on the Leviathan.




Ineffectual because according to the game Revan could have ended the contest on the Leviathan. The only reason Revan doesn't go after Malak there and then is his mission to find the Star Forge. If not for Carth Revan kills Malak on the Leviathan.

The only thing saying Malak is too tuff is Malak himself, tooting his own horn (which means nothing).




I didn't mean that you were categorically calling it PIS. But anytime someone appeals to the "could've", "would've" approach they're basically appealing to the plot or CIS as an excuse why Character x didn't do what they think they should have done.

Nothing in that entire fight suggests that Malak could've or would've killed Revan. The only one saying he could was Malak himself, seems he still had confidence issues.

I posted the video up and you still managed to reason that Malak was "toying" with them when he showed no such intentions (he couldn't "toy" with Revan even if he wanted to).

Meanwhile Jaden as a late teen is pwning a dark side infused Marka Ragnos.

This is flat out embarrassing. Stop trying to convince us that Jaden fought Ragnos. Jaden loses this. You lose. Move on.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Touche. When getting your ass kicked, make sure to edit quotes

No, I prefer to throw in a double facepalm, flee with my tail between my legs and later claim victory. That way I'm spared having my opponant humiliate me.

Also, I had forgoton that Ragnos had the power of several darkside planets, that definately makes Ragnos seem more impressive, and by extention Jaden

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I prefer to throw in a double facepalm, flee with my tail between my legs and later claim victory. That way I'm spared having my opponant humiliate me.

That's great. I prefer to embarrass someone, then do a double facepalm when their argument isn't fathomable to the human mind, and end with a curtain call.


Except for the fact that this is completely unsubstantiated and borderline moronic, and that's being generous. A sufficient amount of dark side energy was required JUST to summon his spirit back from the netherworld. There's no evidence, nor any kind of logic that would assume Ragnos had the power of several planets. This is getting to be hilarious on so many different levels.