Mandrakk vs The Ultimator

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Prep-Man
10-d being vs Monitor.

Galan007
mandrakk.

guy222
Mandrakk

theICONiac
Originally posted by guy222
Mandrakk

What if the Ultimator comes armed with a green chopstick???

Then Mandrakk is screwed...

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by theICONiac
What if the Ultimator comes armed with a green chopstick???

Then Mandrakk is screwed...

Then Gardner beats the shit out of him for copying his moves.

Galan007
i guess people still cling to the happenings in FC #7 as if that were the 'true' mandrakk... i thought that rumor was squashed months ago. ermm

theICONiac
Originally posted by Galan007
i guess people still cling to the happenings in FC #7 as if that were the 'true' mandrakk... i thought that rumor was squashed months ago. ermm

Huh??

Who did the heroes fight in FC7?? Mandrakk's bi-polar half-brother Fred?? And where is the 'true' Mandrakk now??

Kris Blaze
One crazy norwegian's interpretation: The "attacks" used to defeat Mandrakk in the end of FC 7 doesn't really matter match. He was not defeated by the Green Lanterns' creating a giant stake. That would put him around any herald guy's level.

Superman's story was better. The concept of Superman was superior. This was almost revealed to be Mandrakk's weakness by the female monitor. A boy born on Krypton, sent to earth. A better story, backed by the comic book readers' desire for good to prevail. Superman may have punched him, but Mandrakk cannot be harmed by punches. Superman was combataning a story.

The concept/existence of Kal-el in comics prevailed. The Ultimator can not.

Galan007
Originally posted by theICONiac
Huh??

Who did the heroes fight in FC7?? Mandrakk's bi-polar half-brother Fred?? And where is the 'true' Mandrakk now?? the 'true' mandrakk was killed by CA superman. actually, mandrakk wasn't just killed, he was thrown into the overvoid and totally erased from all existence. hell, even the idea of him was snuffed out..

-CA superman-
"i can hear him still screaming all the way down, down, down, until even the idea of him is lost..."
"until the overvoid, the mind of monitor, engulfs him.... already forgetting":
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6778/sm1o.jpg

---

having said that, the mandrakk we saw during FC #7 was the monitor known as rox ogama, who'd been empowered by the 'true' mandrakk in some way..

-rox ogama -
"they cast me out too... who once was proud ogama..."
"drink deep of the bitter cup of mandrakk as i have.. let his blood flow through your veins":
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6695/sm2q.jpg


through the same means that rox ogama was transformed into an offshoot version of mandrakk, so too did he transform ultraman into a vampire version of himself:
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5965/sm3.jpg


what does that mean as far as mandrakk II's power levels are concerned? in a nutshell, mandrakk II was much, much weaker than the original. why? because mandrakk II was not being perpetually fed by essence of the orrery of worlds, and the bleed - nor was mandrakk II empowered by the actual comic story he was just, eh... there.

sure mandrakk II was powerful however, he was also owned by means that, quite frankly, would've had no effect on the 'true' mandrakk - who's power was not only eternal, but he could ONLY be beaten by a story more powerful than his own

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Galan007
the 'true' mandrakk was killed by CA superman. actually, mandrakk wasn't just killed, he was thrown into the overvoid and totally erased from all existence. hell, even the idea of him was snuffed out..

-CA superman-
"i can hear him still screaming all the way down, down, down, until even the idea of him is lost..."
"until the overvoid, the mind of monitor, engulfs him.... already forgetting":
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6778/sm1o.jpg

---

having said that, the mandrakk we saw during FC #7 was the monitor known as rox ogama, who'd been empowered by the 'true' mandrakk in some way..

-rox ogama -
"they cast me out too... who once was proud ogama..."
"drink deep of the bitter cup of mandrakk as i have.. let his blood flow through your veins":
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6695/sm2q.jpg


through the same means that rox ogama was transformed into an offshoot version of mandrakk, so too did he transform ultraman into a vampire version of himself:
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5965/sm3.jpg


what does that mean as far as mandrakk II's power levels are concerned? in a nutshell, mandrakk II was much, much weaker than the original. why? because mandrakk II was not being perpetually fed by essence of the orrery of worlds, and the bleed - nor was mandrakk II empowered by the actual comic story he was just, eh... there.

sure mandrakk II was powerful however, he was also owned by means that, quite frankly, would've had no effect on the 'true' mandrakk - who's power was not only eternal, but he could ONLY be beaten by a story more powerful than his own
thumb up Happy Dance

I would just like to add that they reason Mandrakk #2 was also much weaker then the original Mandrakk is because he didn't have time. The real one had a huge amount of time(while locked up) to feed on the stories of DCU. The second one was only alive for a short period of time, but he was still very powerful

Kris Blaze
Falugging Galan upstaged me.

theICONiac
Originally posted by Galan007
the 'true' mandrakk was killed by CA superman. actually, mandrakk wasn't just killed, he was thrown into the overvoid and totally erased from all existence. hell, even the idea of him was snuffed out..

-CA superman-
"i can hear him still screaming all the way down, down, down, until even the idea of him is lost..."
"until the overvoid, the mind of monitor, engulfs him.... already forgetting":
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6778/sm1o.jpg

---

having said that, the mandrakk we saw during FC #7 was the monitor known as rox ogama, who'd been empowered by the 'true' mandrakk in some way..

-rox ogama -
"they cast me out too... who once was proud ogama..."
"drink deep of the bitter cup of mandrakk as i have.. let his blood flow through your veins":
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6695/sm2q.jpg


through the same means that rox ogama was transformed into an offshoot version of mandrakk, so too did he transform ultraman into a vampire version of himself:
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5965/sm3.jpg


what does that mean as far as mandrakk II's power levels are concerned? in a nutshell, mandrakk II was much, much weaker than the original. why? because mandrakk II was not being perpetually fed by essence of the orrery of worlds, and the bleed - nor was mandrakk II empowered by the actual comic story he was just, eh... there.

sure mandrakk II was powerful however, he was also owned by means that, quite frankly, would've had no effect on the 'true' mandrakk - who's power was not only eternal, but he could ONLY be beaten by a story more powerful than his own

Ok...I can buy that.

But as far as where the Ultimator is concerned? 5D imps (like Mxy) can break the 4th wall. And Ultimator was chewing down on them like they were Clodhoppers.

Galan007
Originally posted by theICONiac
Ok...I can buy that.

But as far as where the Ultimator is concerned? 5D imps (like Mxy) can break the 4th wall. And Ultimator was chewing down on them like they were Clodhoppers. i know how powerful 5-d imps are. i know how powerful ultimator was. i know the power level mandrakk was operating at.

mandrakk ftw.

theICONiac
Originally posted by Galan007
i know how powerful 5-d imps are. i know how powerful ultimator was. i know the power level mandrakk was operating at.

mandrakk ftw.

But what are Mandrakk's feats that show he is stronger than the Ultimator??

I understand Ultimator doesn't really have any other feats besides eating 5D imps...but by proxy in what 5D imps have accomplished in DC's history makes Ultimator look like the 'Ultimate' bad-ass big grin

occultdestroyer
IMO, there should be a new rule added to the forum:

4th wall feats don't count.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by theICONiac
But what are Mandrakk's feats that show he is stronger than the Ultimator??

I understand Ultimator doesn't really have any other feats besides eating 5D imps...but by proxy in what 5D imps have accomplished in DC's history makes Ultimator look like the 'Ultimate' bad-ass big grin
That matters not to Mandrakk

Galan007
Originally posted by theICONiac
But what are Mandrakk's feats that show he is stronger than the Ultimator?? first read "superman beyond 3d" #2. once you understand the concept of mandrakk, you'll have a better grasp on his overall powerset.

like i said before, the only 'thing' in all creation capable of defeating mandrakk was superman's story, and superman's story alone. not only that, but superman/his story had to be amped by what was perhaps the most powerful plot device ever - ie. a thought armor created by dax novu himself, capable of adapting instantly to combat any threat. an armor specifically designed to protect all existence against the ultimate enemy.

SoulDevourer
aint Ultimator suppose to represent "all existence" or somethin? wtf that sound like the Presence huh

xJLxKing
Represent doesn't mean he is all existence. Besides, Mandrakk was eating DCU.

Galan007
c'mon, mxy outsmarted and overcame 'mator. none

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Represent doesn't mean he is all existence. Besides, Mandrakk was eating DCU. but so wuz AM!

iirc to defeat AM, Specter had to become more powerfull then the Presence huh (btw MAJOR PIS for Presence cuz that dont make sense, but thats what they said)

Galan007
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
but so wuz AM!

iirc to defeat AM, Specter had to become more powerfull then the Presence huh (btw MAJOR PIS for Presence cuz that dont make sense, but thats what they said) unless you think a handful of magicians + spectre > the supreme being of DC, i'd take that instance with a grain of salt.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
but so wuz AM!

iirc to defeat AM, Specter had to become more powerfull then the Presence huh (btw MAJOR PIS for Presence cuz that dont make sense, but thats what they said) That's not true.
AM was destroying all the Universes and adding to his. Mandrakk was eating the stories of DCU(everything including spectre, presence..etc.). He did this since the universe began. Ever story maid he more powerful.

As for the Spectre. He never became more powerful then the Presence. Did you know Mxy later appeared in WF and defeated that specific Spectre who fought AM? Don't forget he also said "Sorry master I failed"

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Galan007
unless you think a handful of magicians + spectre > the supreme being of DC, i'd take that instance with a grain of salt. hey i said that dont make sense, but it was on panel


edit
ok actualy it only said he had more knowledge not more power, but that still dont make sense erm

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by xJLxKing
That's not true.
AM was destroying all the Universes and adding to his. Mandrakk was eating the stories of DCU(everything including spectre, presence..etc.). He did this since the universe began. Ever story maid he more powerful. wut so he was going 4th wall or somethin?
if the 5D imps could stop him from takin out their universe then its not all DCU

and the Presence too, WTF? (unless this was Vertigo stuff big grin)

Galan007
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
hey i said that dont make sense, but it was on panel


edit
ok actualy it only said he had more knowledge not more power, but that still dont make sense erm yeah, the exact quote was:
"he sees shapes and colors and patterns and concepts undreamt even by his master."

does that statement make sense? no. does it necessarily equate to spectre being more powerful than the supreme being? no.

-Pr-
Mandrakk was eating existence. Whether you consider God to be part of existence is up to you, i guess...

at least imo.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
wut so he was going 4th wall? then Presence aint supreme

unless this was Vertigo stuff or somethin
This is just my opinion and it's shouldn't be taken as a fact but this is how I view it.

The Presence, or anyone else considered "god/supreme" being is actually the supreme being in DCU. However, I believe that the Prime Monitor is above that. He saw DCU(as a whole) as a germ and sent a probe to observe this germ (who was the original monitor [aka Mandrakk). Before he became Mandrakk, he create the CA armor that was too be powered by the ONLY thing that could defeat him. This was a story that is better then his. It turns out to be Superman's story. Mandrakk spend billions of years feeding on DCU's story.

It all depends if you believe the presence is part of DCU. If you do, he was weaker then Mandrakk. If not, then Mandrakk is weaker.

To me, the Monitor is like a body. The DCU is a germ that keeps growing(stated to be true). The Monitors are white-blood cells that can potentially turn evil if they are exposed to eating the stories.

Galan007
Originally posted by xJLxKing
That's not true.
AM was destroying all the Universes and adding to his. Mandrakk was eating the stories of DCU(everything including spectre, presence..etc.). He did this since the universe began. Ever story maid he more powerful. not only that, but he had been feeding on the orrery of worlds AND the bleed for untold eons.

also - mandrakk was the ultimate *evil* story, incarnate. it took THE most powerful *good/enspiring* story in creation + what i believe was the most powerful weapon ever to exist in DC comics, just to overcome him - and even that was BARELY enough.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Galan007
mandrakk was the ultimate *evil* story, incarnate. it took THE most powerful story in creation + what i believe was the most powerful weapon ever to exist in DC comics, just to overcome mandrakk - and even that was BARELY enough.

Would you say CA Superman is more powerful than Thanos w/ IG or Heart?

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Galan007
mandrakk was the ultimate *evil* story, incarnate. it took THE most powerful story in creation + what i believe was the most powerful weapon ever to exist in DC comics, just to overcome mandrakk - and even that was BARELY enough.
Your right, the CA armor was almost destroyed. In fact, it was stated to be beyond repair.

I think this is because the Mandrakk was getting stronger and stronger then he originally expected himself to be(when he was good)

Galan007
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Would you say CA Superman is more powerful than Thanos w/ IG or Heart? what i will say is that CA supes and mandrakk were as close as you can get to being the supreme being, without actually being the supreme being. imo.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by xJLxKing
This is just my opinion and it's shouldn't be taken as a fact but this is how I view it.

The Presence, or anyone else considered "god/supreme" being is actually the supreme being in DCU. However, I believe that the Prime Monitor is above that. He saw DCU(as a whole) as a germ and sent a probe to observe this germ (who was the original monitor in that case the Prime Monitor IS the real omnipotent God, and Presence woud be more like the one in Vertigo (where he says he wuz created by more powerfull bengs)

basicaly u think Prime Monitor is more like PR Beyonder or somethin?



(btw yeah the *canon* Presence SHOUD be > DCU at least that make more sense)

theICONiac
Originally posted by Galan007
c'mon, mxy outsmarted and overcame 'mator. none

...and Superman with his 'origin story' beat the biggest, baddest omnipotent evil the DCU has ever/will ever see. embarrasment

Prep-Man
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
in that case the Prime Monitor IS the real omnipotent God, and Presence woud be more like the one in Vertigo (where he says he wuz created by more powerfull bengs)

basicaly u think Prime Monitor is more like PR Beyonder or somethin?



(btw yeah the *canon* Presence SHOUD be > DCU at least that make more sense)

The Presence is in both Vertigo and DCU, though.

theICONiac
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
(btw yeah the *canon* Presence SHOUD be > DCU at least that make more sense)

SoulDevourer, you are preaching to the choir over here.

Marvel's cosmic hierarchy absolutely kicks ass over DC. Could you imagine the Living Tribunal getting *****-slapped by the Sentry, or the Silver Surfer?? It seems in DC their omnipotents (like Spectre...nearly stalemating COIE Anti-Monitor but getting pwned by Libra in FC) are 'all-powerful' depending upon which way the winds are blowing with the writers...

Juntai
Originally posted by theICONiac
SoulDevourer, you are preaching to the choir over here.

Marvel's cosmic hierarchy absolutely kicks ass over DC. Could you imagine the Living Tribunal getting *****-slapped by the Sentry, or the Silver Surfer?? It seems in DC their omnipotents (like Spectre...nearly stalemating COIE Anti-Monitor but getting pwned by Libra in FC) are 'all-powerful' depending upon which way the winds are blowing with the writers... Is it more acceptable when it's MC2 version of Reed Richards?

-K-M-
Im going to say The Ultimator wins just to spite Galan smile

theICONiac
Originally posted by Juntai
Is it more acceptable when it's MC2 version of Reed Richards?

Please explain.

Juntai
Originally posted by theICONiac
Please explain. http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9383/reedsuper4hl5.jpg
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/reedsuper5le6.jpg/
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1729/reedsuper6iq6.jpg

MC2 Reed's giant gun takes care of all the cosmics.

jalek moye
Originally posted by Juntai
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9383/reedsuper4hl5.jpg
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/reedsuper5le6.jpg/
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1729/reedsuper6iq6.jpg

MC2 Reed's giant gun takes care of all the cosmics.
did it kill them?

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Juntai
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9383/reedsuper4hl5.jpg
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/reedsuper5le6.jpg/
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1729/reedsuper6iq6.jpg

MC2 Reed's giant gun takes care of all the cosmics. non canon

(btw Galactus > LT? lol laughing out loud )

theICONiac
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
non canon

(btw Galactus > LT? lol laughing out loud )

I was just going to ask if this was 616 Marvel...

But thanks for the pics Jalek. What was this from?

jalek moye
Originally posted by theICONiac
I was just going to ask if this was 616 Marvel...

But thanks for the pics Jalek. What was this from?
you mean Juntai

i didnt give them



Since there is only one Livivng Tribunal, and that is an established universe and not a what if. It might be canon for Living Tribunal sick

theICONiac
Originally posted by jalek moye
you mean Juntai

Whoops! Sorry Juntai...

Prep-Man
Yes, only one LT.

iceman24567
Originally posted by jalek moye

Since there is only one Livivng Tribunal, and that is an established universe and not a what if. It might be canon for Living Tribunal sick The thought that it might be true sick

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by jalek moye

Since there is only one Livivng Tribunal, and that is an established universe and not a what if. It might be canon for Living Tribunal sick i dunno, then is Vertigo canon for the Presence? big grin

jalek moye
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
i dunno, then is Vertigo canon for the Presence? big grin
i dont know

but it is a established fact that The Living Tribunal (only one) resides over all the established marvel universes

-Pr-
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
i dunno, then is Vertigo canon for the Presence? big grin

it's one of the 52 iirc, so it would be...

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by -Pr-
Mandrakk was eating existence. Whether you consider God to be part of existence is up to you, i guess...

at least imo.

God wrote the comic where Mandrakk's concept lost, so let's not go crazy here.

Juntai
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
i dunno, then is Vertigo canon for the Presence? big grin Vertigo isn't a consistent universe. If you're asking if Lucifer's series is canon to DC specifically? No.

Juntai
Originally posted by -Pr-
it's one of the 52 iirc, so it would be... Originally posted by Juntai
Another one, this time from the Vertigo Editor.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=124899

"Wayne repeated his answer from an earlier panel that Vertigo is not one of the 52 Universes of the DC Multiverse."


Seriously, if you look, you could find a ton of these.

They simply aren't the same reality. Originally posted by Juntai
http://www.newsarama.com/WonderCon2006/DCU/besttocome.html

"Even with the redefining of magic in the DCU, the Vertigo and DC lines will continue to remain separate and there will not be any crossovers.", those other ones were current, this one is from a while back.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?threadid=59175

"On the subject of line crossovers, DiDio reiterated DC's familiar policy there is not crossover between the Mature Readers Vertigo line and the DCU."



Posted those back in 2007.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=461261&pagenumber=3

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Juntai
Vertigo isn't a consistent universe. If you're asking if Lucifer's series is canon to DC specifically? No.

Are you ****ing kidding me? How can Sandman and Lucifer -not- be canon to DC? That's just, off. Especially for Sandman, considering all of the appearances DC characters had in his series and vice versa.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Juntai
Posted those back in 2007.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=461261&pagenumber=3

oh, ok. i was thinking of wildstorm. that's what got me. they're in the 52, right?

Juntai
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Are you ****ing kidding me? How can Sandman and Lucifer -not- be canon to DC? That's just, off. Especially for Sandman, considering all of the appearances DC characters had in his series and vice versa. Sandman seems to be, but no comic, even the other Vertigo titles, have ever acknowledged anything from Lucifer character that didn't appear in the pages of Sandman. Especially not DC.

Sandman was originally written as part of the DCU, they didn't build the Vertigo label until later down the line, and now all the trades say "Vertigo" on them.

Lucifer however, is completely self contained.

Juntai
Originally posted by -Pr-
oh, ok. i was thinking of wildstorm. that's what got me. they're in the 52, right? Wildstorm is, yes.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Juntai
Sandman seems to be, but no comic, even the other Vertigo titles, have ever acknowledged anything from Lucifer character that didn't appear in the pages of Sandman. Especially not DC.

Sandman was originally written as part of the DCU, they didn't build the Vertigo label until later down the line, and now all the trades say "Vertigo" on them.

http://img216.imageshack.us/i/luc1ii8.jpg/ ?

Thanks Phil.

Juntai
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
http://img216.imageshack.us/i/luc1ii8.jpg/ ?

Thanks Phil. My internet is acting wierd, what is it?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Juntai
Wildstorm is, yes.

ah, yeah, thought so...

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Juntai
My internet is acting wierd, what is it?

One of his appearances outside Lucifer. Also, he appeared in Etrigan's comic and in the Spectre limited series.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Juntai
My internet is acting wierd, what is it?

Me too!

-Pr-
it worked for me... mmm

Juntai
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
One of his appearances outside Lucifer. Also, he appeared in Etrigan's comic and in the Spectre limited series. Lucifer and Mazikeen exist in the DCU, Kris, they appeared in Sandman, and Lucifer also appeared in Spectre's ongoing, not limited, volume 3, during Spectre's search for God near the end of the series. Just as all the Endless have appeared from Sandman. Just as the guys who trapped Morpheus were referenced in Green Arrow's first arc or so in the last Green Arrow ongoing.

However, the Lucifer title itself wasn't written until long after DC and Vertigo became separate, and no other title Vertigo like Constantine or otherwise that I recall, has acknowledged any of the events in it that did not previously happen in Sandman, especially not a DC proper title. Reading the final arc of Lucifer should give you the idea that it's not canon, when Elaine combined her universe, lucifer's universe, and Yahweh's universe into one, and abolished the idea of hell. These events never happened anywhere but inside of Lucifer's self contained story.

Prep-Man
Wildstorm is apart of the DCU now, baby! Bleed and all.

Youtube and other sites not working. This site loading slow.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer and Mazikeen exist in the DCU, Kris, they appeared in Sandman, and Lucifer also appeared in Spectre's ongoing, not limited, volume 3, during Spectre's search for God near the end of the series. Just as all the Endless have appeared from Sandman.

However, the Lucifer title itself wasn't written until long after DC and Vertigo became separate, and no other title Vertigo like Constantine or otherwise that I recall, has acknowledged any of the events in it that did not previously happen in Sandman, especially not a DC proper title. Reading the final arc of Lucifer should give you the idea that it's not canon, when Elaine combined her universe, lucifer's universe, and Yahweh's universe into one, and abolished the idea of hell. These events never happened anywhere but inside of Lucifer's self contained story.

That may be true, but Lucifer is still apart of the DCU. Kinda. wink

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer and Mazikeen exist in the DCU, Kris, they appeared in Sandman, and Lucifer also appeared in Spectre's ongoing, not limited, volume 3, during Spectre's search for God near the end of the series. Just as all the Endless have appeared from Sandman. Just as the guys who trapped Morpheus were referenced in Green Arrow's first arc or so in the last Green Arrow ongoing.

However, the Lucifer title itself wasn't written until long after DC and Vertigo became separate, and no other title Vertigo like Constantine or otherwise that I recall, has acknowledged any of the events in it that did not previously happen in Sandman, especially not a DC proper title. Reading the final arc of Lucifer should give you the idea that it's not canon, when Elaine combined her universe, lucifer's universe, and Yahweh's universe into one, and abolished the idea of hell. These events never happened anywhere but inside of Lucifer's self contained story.

Which is not logically possible when Lucifer is a character in the DC universe no expression

Juntai
Originally posted by Prep-Man
That may be true, but Lucifer is still apart of the DCU. Kinda. wink The character is there, but not Mike Carrey's story. Only his few appearances in DC's titles, or in Sandman seem to count towards anything.

Juntai
And the Etrigan comic he appeared in, was Etrigan year one, iirc, when he's describing rising through the ranks of hell to become Satan's favorite demon.

Prep-Man
Would you say that his early appearances make him to be just as formidable as Mike Carey's story? Haven't read everything.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Juntai
The character is there, but not Mike Carrey's story. Only his few appearances in DC's titles, or in Sandman seem to count towards anything.

The mentions of Vertigo no longer being canon was posted -after- Lucifer series was completed.

Juntai
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
The mentions of Vertigo no longer being canon was posted -after- Lucifer series was completed. Kris. The Luficer solo series is not canon to the DCU. lol. I've already pointed out why in story context, and given links to both editors saying they aren't the same universe.

If you still want to believe it is, go for it.

However, you can even go back and look as early as Didio was named editor, and see him saying the same things. In one that pops up even looking for like 30 seconds for "Didio Vertigo" on the google list is an interview from 2005, someone asking of Infinite Crisis will affect Vertigo, or if Vertigo characters will be in it. And he simply reiterated that it's its own imprint and not part of the DCU and they will not cross over.

Vertigo borrows characters from DC's mythology and writes stories about them. These stories are not canonical to the DC versions of the characters. Not the JSA Sandman, Not Madame Xanadu, and not Luficer. Vertigo isn't a 'universe', perse, it's just a collection of awesome stories.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Juntai
Kris. The Luficer solo series is not canon to the DCU. lol. I've already pointed out why in story context, and given links to both editors saying they aren't the same universe.

If you still want to believe it is, go for it.

However, you can even go back and look as early as Didio was named editor, and see him saying the same things. In one that pops up even looking for like 30 seconds for "Didio Vertigo" on the google list is an interview from 2005, someone asking of Infinite Crisis will affect Vertigo, or if Vertigo characters will be in it. And he simply reiterated that it's its own imprint and not part of the DCU and they will not cross over.

Links are dead.

Editors made the comment after the series had been released.

Juntai
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Links are dead.

Editors made the comment after the series had been released. Does Hell exist in DC?
Does it exist in Hellblazer?


Because it doesn't at the end of Luficer.

Juntai
This wasn't some sudden change of heart regarding Vertigo.

http://www.zonanegativa.com/?p=2894
May 2006.

Why don’t characters like Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Tim Hunter and others participate in IC? Do they live within DCU although they are published by Vertigo? “American Gothic” was the best first Crisis’ “spin-off”. Will IC have consequences for Constantine and the rest of Vertigo characters that are DCU origin?

DD.- Simply put, once those characters moved completely to Vertigo, and were printed under a mature label, we could not, as responsible publishers, cross them over into unlabeled series.


Or here. Didio explains it clearly. However, this one is more recent. Same result as all of the others though.
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/110812-Didio2.html

18: Something that touches upon expanding the universe with bringing in the Milestone characters and the Red Circle characters – it’s a question that comes up at every panel you do – DC has the Vertigo characters...

DD: Who does? I don’t have the Vertigo characters. The DCU does not have the Vertigo characters. Those are under the auspices of Vertigo under Karen Berger, and they have a set plan for those characters that works independently from what we do here – and that’s that. I’ve answered this question so many times...the reality is, as aggressively as we may tell stories with our characters, we will never be Vertigo Comics. We can never use the language that they use in Vertigo, or address the subject matter that they address, therefore, we try to make a very clear delineation between what is DCU and what is Vertigo. Once characters are up front and prominent there, they cannot be anywhere near the DCU.

NRAMA: Animal Man?

DD: Animal Man came back to the DC Universe because Grant Morrison wanted to write him. Once Grant stopped writing him, we wrapped our arms around him and wouldn’t let him go back. The same with Doom Patrol. That’s just the way the system works. Characters like Swamp Thing are essential to the identity of Vertigo right now – that’s one of the things that Vertigo was built on. I know how important they are for Karen and the Vertigo line, and therefore these trains shall never meet.

NRAMA: I hear what you’re saying, but looking at it from more of a fan perspective, there always seem to parts to that explanation that ring hollow – Swamp Thing isn’t appearing anywhere in Vertigo, and the best selling title has nothing to do with Swamp Thing, Constantine or any of the magic that Neil Gaiman wrote about...not to mention Alan Moore had no problem mixing Swamp Thing with Superman, or sending him into Gotham to get Abbey back – those are classic stories in the DC library. It just seems weird that DC has cut themselves off from using those characters and seems okay with letting some of them languish, but on the other hand, you’re importing whole new universes of characters into the Universe.

DD: Swamp Thing and Superman and Gotham were stories prior to creation of Vertigo. There was no Vertigo when those stories were written, so therefore, they fell under what the DC Universe was at the time, but once Vertigo became its own imprint, its own brand, it became separate from the DC Universe, and therefore we handle it as a separate entity, and we deal with characters individually.

I don’t know how else to say it. Asking me about those characters is like saying, “DC did Amalgam with Marvel – why don’t you use those characters again?” That’s about the same way that I can view the Vertigo characters. If we use something, there is a discussion that has to happen before it. There’s not a free-flowing line that we can move back and forth over.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
One crazy norwegian's interpretation: The "attacks" used to defeat Mandrakk in the end of FC 7 doesn't really matter match. He was not defeated by the Green Lanterns' creating a giant stake. That would put him around any herald guy's level.

Superman's story was better. The concept of Superman was superior. This was almost revealed to be Mandrakk's weakness by the female monitor. A boy born on Krypton, sent to earth. A better story, backed by the comic book readers' desire for good to prevail. Superman may have punched him, but Mandrakk cannot be harmed by punches. Superman was combataning a story.

The concept/existence of Kal-el in comics prevailed. The Ultimator can not.

So, going by this, any character from any classical work of fiction could solo the DC universe by virtue of being from a better story?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So, going by this, any character from any classical work of fiction could solo the DC universe by virtue of being from a better story?

With a better story than Superman's, yes. Does that exist? Not in the DC verse apparently.

Juntai
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
With a better story than Superman's, yes. Does that exist? Not in the DC verse apparently. thumb up
Plus, another work of fiction from classic literature, is just another work of fiction in the DCU.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
With a better story than Superman's, yes. Does that exist? Not in the DC verse apparently.

Not even Shakespeare?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not even Shakespeare?

I didn't know that Shakespeare wrote for DC.

Regardless, you're debating something entirely different than what is relevant to Superman's battle in Superman: Beyond.

Endless Mike
No, really, my point is that using this train of thought, anyone could argue that their favorite character could solo the DCU merely by saying that they like the character's backstory more.

Look at the forum rules, for example:



What you're saying is that in this case, such an argument would actually be valid

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, really, my point is that using this train of thought, anyone could argue that their favorite character could solo the DCU merely by saying that they like the character's backstory more.

Look at the forum rules, for example:

What you're saying is that in this case, such an argument would actually be valid

No, because then that argument would be based on my own personal opinion and not what went down in the comic. Superman was chosen in Beyond for a reason. That's the only argument one can use when debating Mandrakk no expression

Endless Mike
He was chosen because he had a better story. All you have to do is argue that your character's story is even better.

Galan007
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
basicaly u think Prime Monitor is more like PR Beyonder or somethin? trying to, in some way, quantify the primal monitor's power by comparing it to beyonder is full of fail.

understand that the primal monitor was responsible for creating the very first monitor, dax novu , as well as creating anti-monitor *by necessity* to balance dax out. understand that these beings were created as nothing but insignificant 'probes' in which to examine what the primal monitor considered a microscopic flaw within itself

when you begin to realize the fact that beings like dax novu and anti-monitor were absolutely nothing in comparison to the primal monitor, you will begin to realize that trying to quantify the primal monitor's power is... moot. it would be like trying to count to infinity.

Originally posted by theICONiac
...and Superman with his 'origin story' beat the biggest, baddest omnipotent evil the DCU has ever/will ever see. embarrasment Originally posted by Endless Mike
He was chosen because he had a better story. All you have to do is argue that your character's story is even better. what don't you fellas understand?

our own personal opinion(s) regarding which character's story is better means absolutely NOTHING in regards to who could defeat mandrakk. within DC comics, the story of superman is > ALL others - why do you think the friggin' cosmic armor was modeled after him in the first place?

you also need to understand a fact that i've mentioned SEVERAL times now... superman's story alone WAS NOT what beat mandrakk. superman/his story had to first be mega-amped by the cosmic armor, which is capable of adapting instantly to combat ANY threat, even the 'eternal' power of mandrakk - and even that was BARELY enough. in fact, had the battle lasted any longer, superman would NOT have won

in short, it took THE most powerful plot device i've seen + the best story within DC comics, just to scantily pull out the win.


if you'd like to argue any of the facts i mentioned, i suggest you first reread "superman beyond". smile

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Galan007
trying to, in some way, quantify the primal monitor's power by comparing it to beyonder is full of fail.

understand that the primal monitor was responsible for creating the very first monitor, dax novu , as well as creating anti-monitor *by necessity* to balance dax out. understand that these beings were created as nothing but insignificant 'probes' in which to examine what the primal monitor considered a microscopic flaw within itself

when you begin to realize the fact that beings like dax novu and anti-monitor were absolutely nothing in comparison to the primal monitor, you will begin to realize that trying to quantify the primal monitor's power is... moot. it would be like trying to count to infinity. yeah and PR Beyonder bearly noticed the OMNIverse no expression it wuz like a microbe under microscope or somethin

btw the omniverse is more then billions of universes so thats a bit more then 52 lol

Galan007
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
btw the omniverse is more then billions of universes so thats a bit more then 52 lol facepalm

it was the original multiverse that the primal monitor sent his 'probes' to explore. the original multiverse = an infinite number of universes, buddy.

oh and just so you know, the current DCU links directly to companies like wildstorm ie. the current DCU is MUCH more than 52 universes, all things considered.

SoulDevourer
wut about the Watchmen universe?

kevdude
Mandrakk. Can't wait to see Grant working on the Multiversity considering his work on FC cool . Good to see he gave the New Gods the respect they deserve.

theICONiac
Originally posted by Galan007
what don't you fellas understand?

our own personal opinion(s) regarding which character's story is better means absolutely NOTHING in regards to who could defeat mandrakk. within DC comics, the story of superman is > ALL others - why do you think the friggin' cosmic armor was modeled after him in the first place?

you also need to understand a fact that i've mentioned SEVERAL times now... superman's story alone WAS NOT what beat mandrakk. superman/his story had to first be mega-amped by the cosmic armor, which is capable of adapting instantly to combat ANY threat, even the 'eternal' power of mandrakk - and even that was BARELY enough. in fact, had the battle lasted any longer, superman would NOT have won

in short, it took THE most powerful plot device i've seen + the best story within DC comics, just to scantily pull out the win.


if you'd like to argue any of the facts i mentioned, i suggest you first reread "superman beyond". smile

Still waiting to hear what feats Mandrakk has that would show he would decimate the Ultimator... stick out tongue

Galan007
apparently my posts are falling to deaf ears.

so... i'm done. my points have been stated. smile

Blanket
Originally posted by Galan007
apparently my posts are falling to deaf ears.

so... i'm done. my points have been stated. smile You never answered about the Watchmen universe... and your posts are falling on deaf ears? Laffable.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
apparently my posts are falling to deaf ears.

so... i'm done. my points have been stated. smile

Not to mention Ultraman, who played something of a vital part there. Superman's counterpart WAS necessary.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by theICONiac
Still waiting to hear what feats Mandrakk has that would show he would decimate the Ultimator... stick out tongue
Do you not listen?

Mr Master
Originally posted by jalek moye

Since there is only one Livivng Tribunal,

and that is an established universe and not a what if.

It might be canon for Living Tribunal
MC2 comedy involving the LT is non canon.

'What ifs' are more canon than that garbage,
at-least they're referenced in the officially Marvel sponsored 'What If' Bio site,
that story concerening the LT & Reed isn't recollected in any bio, of any kind.

It's not even acknowledged in the MC2 Universe Handbook bio,
which does reference every story that ever took place in the MC 2 reality,
well, every story except for the LT joint,
and the one where Spiderman defeats the Hulk hand to hand. laughing out loud

btw. It's also ignored in the Living Tribunal's bio as well (even the updated 08)
while every other appearance
the LT has ever made (including 'What ifs') is.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Endless Mike

He was chosen because he had a better story.
All you have to do is argue that your character's story is even better.
This is why placing Mandrakk in a vs thread
vs characters from other companies is a moot idea.

Mr Master
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

yeah and PR Beyonder bearly noticed the OMNIverse

it wuz like a microbe under microscope or somethin
thumb up

Yea, the Primal Monitor is like DC's version of pre-retcon Beyonder imo.

Actually, it's almost the same shit with a twist.

btw. For the record:

The infinite Marvel Omniverse compared to Beyonder
was like a drop of water next to an ocean.
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

btw the omniverse is more then billions of universes so thats a bit more then 52 lol
The Omniverse is a collection of infinite Multiverses.

So instead of billions, it's simply an infinite number of realities.
(infinite > billions - or whatever other number you can think of)

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Galan007
trying to, in some way, quantify the primal monitor's power by comparing it to beyonder is full of fail.

understand that the primal monitor was responsible for creating the very first monitor, dax novu , as well as creating anti-monitor *by necessity* to balance dax out.

Then that shows a limit. If he was truly omnipotent he wouldn't need to do anything, he could just say "balance him out? Screw that, I don't have to if I don't want to".



If he was omnipotent he would not have any flaws. If he was omnipotent he would not mistake the multiverse for a flaw. If he was omnipotent he could fix it instantly. If he was omnipotent, he wouldn't need to send probes into it, he could know everything about it just by willing to know.



Except your own posts show he clearly has limits, making him inferior to a True Omnipotent being.



Exactly - Within DC Comics. But the vs. forum involves putting characters from DC comics against characters from other fictional works. Just because Superman's story is the best in DC Comics doesn't mean it's the best in Marvel Comics or Image Comics.

xJLxKing
No, he noticed something inside him. He didn't know what it is. He viewed it as a flaw, and a germ. It was nothing to him. So he sent monitors there.


What if he doesn't want to will it.


The second Mandrakk entered the void, it was forgotten. Void=primal monitor


Why do you think people don't want to use Mandrakk in a vs thread. Also, if you are going to use him in a VS then use him correctly. It was stated that only Superman's story is better. When in a VS topic, you have to apply that rule. There is nothing in marvel to say that they have the best story. Nothing was ever stated about a character having the best story in Marvel. Even then, you are going to need a weapon that adapts so a threat ASAP.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, he noticed something inside him. He didn't know what it is. He viewed it as a flaw, and a germ. It was nothing to him. So he sent monitors there.

Except if he was omnipotent, there would be nothing he wouldn't notice.



Then he's an idiot.



How does that contradict anything I said?



Okay so if we have one story where we have an unbreakable shield that can only be broken by one weapon, it doesn't mean that it's unbreakable to anything from any other fictional story, it just means it's unbreakable to anything from that particular story except that weapon.

And apparently people are using Mandrakk in the vs. forum, this thread is an indication of that.

xJLxKing
But he did notice it.


Didn't beyonder do the same thing? he limited himself in many ways. I mean hello!! If you are supreme being, how does a mortal man steal your power?


Read the VS rule

Endless Mike
Originally posted by xJLxKing
But he did notice it.

Only after it had emerged. He was confused by it.



Beyonder wasn't omnipotent either



What rule?

xJLxKing
No, he was never confused.


I think he was


There is a specific rule. When characters abttle(from different companies) they fight in a neutral universe where both characters "logic" can be used.

So characters like Mandrakk that can only get beat by CA + Superman's Story+ other factors can still only be beaten by them. Though, people can't accept it

theICONiac
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Do you not listen?

No, not very well.

Galan007
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Then that shows a limit. If he was truly omnipotent he wouldn't need to do anything, he could just say "balance him out? Screw that, I don't have to if I don't want to".



If he was omnipotent he would not have any flaws. If he was omnipotent he would not mistake the multiverse for a flaw. If he was omnipotent he could fix it instantly. If he was omnipotent, he wouldn't need to send probes into it, he could know everything about it just by willing to know.



Except your own posts show he clearly has limits, making him inferior to a True Omnipotent being.



Exactly - Within DC Comics. But the vs. forum involves putting characters from DC comics against characters from other fictional works. Just because Superman's story is the best in DC Comics doesn't mean it's the best in Marvel Comics or Image Comics. facepalm

-K-M-
As I was saying....

Originally posted by -K-M-
Im going to say The Ultimator wins just to spite Galan smile

Galan007
thumb up

Endless Mike
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, he was never confused.

Why did he feel the need to investigate it then?




He obviously was not, since his power was described in finite terms.




Really, because I haven't seen that. In addition, it makes no sense, considering it would allow any random no-limits fallacy to be prevalent.

So if you have a character who is supposedly unbeatable but the strongest thing in his verse is just a guy with class 10 strength, that means that even Galactus or LT can't beat him? roll eyes (sarcastic)

xJLxKing
Ever heard of the quote, "God works in mysterious ways"? Well, think of it this way, a supreme being works in mysterious ways. The same way, a ghost who is suppose to be the wrath of god gets destroyed by by beings soo much weaker. It's a comic and don't try to apply a lot of logic into it.


and infinite as well. I'll let Mr. M answer this question




No, you missed the point. It means something else. Imagine I bring a character from Marvel into DC. Lets say Silver Surfer. He would be powerless because nothing is powering him up(Galactus), and the power cosmic isn't the same as DC. That would mean he is powerless. So we apply the same thing with Mandrakk, that only CA+Superman story should beat him.

It's stupid which is why he shouldn't be put in a Vs Thread. There is no point in the fight. One side says my argument, and the other says that it doesn't apply Marvel. It's never ending.


The only feats Mandrakk has is, he was eating DC Universe, he was defeated by an armor that can ADAPT to any situation instantly; powered by the best story. He has eternal power. He holds the bleed, and the regular monitors, and other beings in DCU pale in comparison.

As for the business withe Primal Monitor, I told you there can be SOO much theories on who he is. So far, there are many theories on who created the universe.

If we go by what FC is saying, PM is a organism( very big), DCU is a germ inside the PM which is growing(with more stories). Superman created the Universe. Mandrakk is eating up the DCU (everything) and he is the concept of evil(evil part of story)

So if we go by that, PM is a Supreme Being in the story, but he didn't created the story(DCU). Though, these theories can contradict. People can say, the presense created the universe because he admitted it when he say the Spectre and he said that these are his toys. Then there is Superman, Krona, Source Wall, PM, an probably a few more. Then we have the thing about the supreme being. We got the Presense, and the PM.

All in all, just choose who you want to be PM, at the end it doesn't even matter. I don't think the authors were even thinking this deep.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Ever heard of the quote, "God works in mysterious ways"? Well, think of it this way, a supreme being works in mysterious ways. The same way, a ghost who is suppose to be the wrath of god gets destroyed by by beings soo much weaker. It's a comic and don't try to apply a lot of logic into it.

So in other words, you have no answer.




He gave half of his power to Dazzler. You can't split infinity in half.

He was said to be "millions of times the power of the multiverse" - that's a finite number.



That's completely different. "Gets his power from" isn't the same as "can only be beaten by".



We need a story to retcon all of this and decide once and for all who is the real Supreme Being in DC.

(I'm betting it's Ambush Bug stick out tongue )

xJLxKing
Again trying to apply that logic. W.e.


You mean like how there were infinite amount of universes in DCU and ye, the Anti-monitor destroyed all but one.



You are right. That's why which ever you choose you are right

Kris Blaze
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/DCFiftyTwoWeek5-022.jpg

Infinite.

Endless Mike
You mean like how there were infinite amount of universes in DCU and ye, the Anti-monitor destroyed all but one.

I don't see the relevance.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/DCFiftyTwoWeek5-022.jpg

Infinite.
thanks for posting the image!!!

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I don't see the relevance.
It proves Infinite can be cut in Comics. It's true it can't be cut in the real world, but it can in comics....apparently

Endless Mike
Actually the Anti-Monitor instance makes sense, even if one universe survived he could still have destroyed an infinite amount. The problem is that you can't split infinity into equal parts.

Merlyn
Mike: It just doesn't seem like you have the slightest clue what you're talking about.


Newho, the PM's intelligence was stated to be infinite:
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5974/supermanbeyond01page024.th.jpg

Therefore, you trying to apply your own "knowledge" to a being with infinite intelligence it absolutely pointless. It simply did/does what it (with it's infinite wisdom) feels that needs to be done.

Also, the PM's power would have to be infinite as well, based on the characters we previously thought possessed "truly" infinite power, that were created by the PM as meager probing devices in which to check out the DC Multiverse.

Lastly, we know it's overall size had to be infinite, because the infinite DC Multiverse was nothing but a germ in comparison to it.


Everything about this "creature" screams (to any logical person) that it is "truly" infinite in every aspect. You trying to throw your own logic into the mix doesn't change anything that's been shown/stated on panel. Never will.

Philosophía
yodawg1@thread.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually the Anti-Monitor instance makes sense, even if one universe survived he could still have destroyed an infinite amount. The problem is that you can't split infinity into equal parts.
Again! You are applying real world logic to comic. It's okay to do that sometimes, but not everything. It was stated numerous of times, that there were INFINITE amount of universes in DCU. The AM destroyed ALL but one. As stupid as it sound, it happened and it is a fact.

Like Merlyn posted, The PM does have infinite knowledge, and his other points seems to be on the spot.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Merlyn
Mike: It just doesn't seem like you have the slightest clue what you're talking about.


Newho, the PM's intelligence was stated to be infinite:
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5974/supermanbeyond01page024.th.jpg

So what? Ten-Eyed man was stated to be the most dangerous man on earth. The facts that are actually shown overrule what is stated in dialogue.



A germ has definite size. If it were really infinite, the DC Multiverse would be infinitesimal in comparison.

Merlyn
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So what? Ten-Eyed man was stated to be the most dangerous man on earth. The facts that are actually shown overrule what is stated in dialogue.



A germ has definite size. If it were really infinite, the DC Multiverse would be infinitesimal in comparison. Originally posted by Merlyn
Mike: It just doesn't seem like you have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Endless Mike
So no real refutations?

Let me just restate my position: If a character has ever shown to be unable to accomplish anything, or to be obligated to do something, or to show any effort at all doing something, they are not omnipotent.

Merlyn
Lordie, lordie you are full of fail.

Neway, Mandrakk wins. Omnipotent beings can't really loose.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Endless Mike
show any effort at all doing something, they are not omnipotent.

Why? It could simply be that we perceive them exerting effort.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So no real refutations?

Let me just restate my position: If a character has ever shown to be unable to accomplish anything, or to be obligated to do something, or to show any effort at all doing something, they are not omnipotent. Unless they want to be. Unless they will it be.
Mxy is omniscient and even he can't tell that he is going to get tricked by Superman/

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Unless they want to be. Unless they will it be.

That's possible.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Mxy is omniscient and even he can't tell that he is going to get tricked by Superman/

That is stupid, unless Mxy wills it.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
That's possible.




Yeah, exactly


There are two definitions

* inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
* total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.


Get it? Same can be said for Omnipotent

Galan007
mxy is actually another good point. as far as what we've seen, mxy is omnipotent - having reality manipulation on a multiversal+ level. but even higher realms, like the 5th dimension, are still linked to the 'mainstream' DC multiverse - that's how prime was able to punch his way there, when he was "warped into the multiverse."

that said, what needs to be understood is DC's multiverse was/is nothing but a microscopic flaw to the primal monitor. in fact, the multiverse was so insignificant that it's existence was hardly even recognized. this means that the primal monitor is so vast that even 'infinite' powers such as: spectre, mxy, the entire 5th dimension, the source... hell, all of DC combined - BARELY even constituted being looked further into.


that's how powerful the primal monitor is. i don't understand what's not computing with some people. srsly

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
mxy is actually another good point. as far as what we've seen, mxy is omnipotent - having reality manipulation on a multiversal+ level. but even higher realms, like the 5th dimension, are still linked to the 'mainstream' DC multiverse - that's how prime was able to punch his way there, when he was "warped into the multiverse."

that said, what needs to be understood is DC's multiverse was/is nothing but a microscopic flaw to the primal monitor. in fact, the multiverse was so insignificant that it's existence was hardly even recognized. this means that the primal monitor is so vast that even 'infinite' powers such as: spectre, mxy, the entire 5th dimension, the source... hell, all of DC combined - BARELY even constituted being looked further into.


that's how powerful the primal monitor is. i don't understand what's not computing with some people. srsly thumb up

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
mxy is actually another good point. as far as what we've seen, mxy is omnipotent - having reality manipulation on a multiversal+ level. but even higher realms, like the 5th dimension, are still linked to the 'mainstream' DC multiverse - that's how prime was able to punch his way there, when he was "warped into the multiverse."

that said, what needs to be understood is DC's multiverse was/is nothing but a microscopic flaw to the primal monitor. in fact, the multiverse was so insignificant that it's existence was hardly even recognized. this means that the primal monitor is so vast that even 'infinite' powers such as: spectre, mxy, the entire 5th dimension, the source... hell, all of DC combined - BARELY even constituted being looked further into.


that's how powerful the primal monitor is. i don't understand what's not computing with some people. srsly

Spectre and Mercy weren't even obstacles.

Which speaks volumes.

kevdude
Originally posted by Galan007
mxy is actually another good point. as far as what we've seen, mxy is omnipotent - having reality manipulation on a multiversal+ level. but even higher realms, like the 5th dimension, are still linked to the 'mainstream' DC multiverse - that's how prime was able to punch his way there, when he was "warped into the multiverse."

that said, what needs to be understood is DC's multiverse was/is nothing but a microscopic flaw to the primal monitor. in fact, the multiverse was so insignificant that it's existence was hardly even recognized. this means that the primal monitor is so vast that even 'infinite' powers such as: spectre, mxy, the entire 5th dimension, the source... hell, all of DC combined - BARELY even constituted being looked further into.


that's how powerful the primal monitor is. i don't understand what's not computing with some people. srsly

I agree with a lot of this Galan but I gotta ask you, where does the Fourth World fit in with this?? We know it is someplace else and not within the DC Multiverse as Darkseids presence in it began to break it down, and that's not even beginning to talk about where The Source resides. Your thoughts cool

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Galan007
mxy is actually another good point. as far as what we've seen, mxy is omnipotent - having reality manipulation on a multiversal+ level. but even higher realms, like the 5th dimension, are still linked to the 'mainstream' DC multiverse - that's how prime was able to punch his way there, when he was "warped into the multiverse."

that said, what needs to be understood is DC's multiverse was/is nothing but a microscopic flaw to the primal monitor. in fact, the multiverse was so insignificant that it's existence was hardly even recognized. this means that the primal monitor is so vast that even 'infinite' powers such as: spectre, mxy, the entire 5th dimension, the source... hell, all of DC combined - BARELY even constituted being looked further into.


that's how powerful the primal monitor is. i don't understand what's not computing with some people. srsly
thumb up rock

Galan007
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Spectre and Mercy weren't even obstacles.

Which speaks volumes. correction: they weren't even obstacles to a second-hand version of mandrakk, of which was far less than the original mandrakk - and by proxy, was far less than the primal monitor.

ie. primal monitor g_infinity> mandrakk I >>> mandrakk II >>> spectre/radiant > pretty much anything in DC

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
correction: they weren't even obstacles to a second-hand version of mandrakk, of which was far less than the original mandrakk - and by proxy, was far less than the primal monitor.

ie. primal monitor g_infinity> mandrakk I >>> mandrakk II >>> spectre/radiant > pretty much anything in DC

Yes, for ****s sake. I still keep mixing Ogama and Mandrakk.

Galan007
Originally posted by kevdude
I agree with a lot of this Galan but I gotta ask you, where does the Fourth World fit in with this?? We know it is someplace else and not within the DC Multiverse as Darkseids presence in it began to break it down, and that's not even beginning to talk about where The Source resides. Your thoughts cool still linked to the DCU, but on a higher dimensional plane.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by kevdude
I agree with a lot of this Galan but I gotta ask you, where does the Fourth World fit in with this?? or the watchmens universe !?

Prep-Man
Pretty soon Nekron will be all that is!! big grin

KuRuPT Thanosi
Why is this thread still going? Mandrakk would win and it would be easily at that.

kevdude
Originally posted by Galan007
still linked to the DCU, but on a higher dimensional plane.

Yeah and we have other places as well like that as well, like Dreams realm. Have you read anything about the Monitors trying to become The Source (The Prime Monitor/Overvoid) though I've never read that before and if they are the same being?? Hard to say really, it is stated on Wikipedia that was their goal, maybe to join with it??

Here is Grant on IGN about it.

In later interviews, the author of this revised origin of the Monitor race, Grant Morrison, explained it as a metafictional comment on the DC Multiverse as both a living being and a fictional creation, with the Overvoid as a single or multiple pieces of blank white paper, reacting to the ink stories being forced upon it:

“ What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.
— Grant Morrison, Interviewed on IGN.com.

Endless Mike
A truly omnipotent being would not be shocked by anything, nor would it need to create other beings to protect itself. No one here seems to grasp the actual concept of omnipotence.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Endless Mike
A truly omnipotent being would not be shocked by anything, nor would it need to create other beings to protect itself. No one here seems to grasp the actual concept of omnipotence.

Nor do you seem to understand that an omnipotent being can choose to be shocked by something. An omnipotent being should be able to lock away parts of it's own power.

God can make a sandwhich so big he can't finish it, and he could finish it anyway.

Endless Mike
That's a retarded argument.

Using that logic, prove my dick isn't omnipotent, it has just locked away most of its power. laughing

xJLxKing
No, you are just trying to apply real world logic into comics.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's a retarded argument.

Using that logic, prove my dick isn't omnipotent, it has just locked away most of its power. laughing

Are you dense, stupid, retarded?

I made a comment regarding the limitations of omnipotence. It was not trying to back up a particular character, that's you projecting your idiocy into my posts.

It's sad, because it's not like you don't understand what transpired between Batman and Mandrakk, you just reject it. Your brain seems to be rejecting what actually happened. It's just like you should by all rights understand, but for some reason you just refuse to. Morrison has laid down the law and told it like it is. You're refusing to accept this, claiming that because something which Morrison made happen, should not be possible if Mandrakk was omnipotent. Better yet, you managed to get tangled up in a debate here about the limits of omnipotence and selective omniscience. Where regardless of what you subscribe to, the comics has already provided their stance on the matter.

So simply put, shut the faluggle up and accept it. If you can't do that, go back to narutof..Stop, ignoretime.

Badabing
Guys, be civil.

Galan007
Originally posted by Endless Mike
A truly omnipotent being would not be shocked by anything, nor would it need to create other beings to protect itself. No one here seems to grasp the actual concept of omnipotence. the primal monitor was not 'shocked' about anything, nor did it create dax novu to 'protect' itself. primal monitor knew of the 'microscopic' multiverse, so it created dax to further investigate it's intricacies. nothing more, nothing less.

as stated before, the primal monitor gathering information through it's 'probe' is a case of inherent omniscience. afterall, why would the PM care enough to use it's "infinite intelligence" on something so utterly insignificant? why would the PM care about something that hardly even bleeped on it's radar? why would the PM care when the probe's information got back to it? i mean, i don't care what one of my cells is doing at any given moment...

the fact is, EVERY other 'infinite' power throughout DC are utterly insignificant in the face of the primal monitor. real world logic aside, how can you claim that the primal monitor is anything less than omnipotent when all the characters in DC comics are beneath it's notice, and microbial in comparison?

Philosophía
The Primal Monitor is beyond concepts such as in-story Omnipotence since the very concept of story itself (of which Cosmic Armor Superman and Mandrakk are the extremes of) is contained within himself, and even when characters incredibly powerfull characters such as Mandrakk come into direct contact with him they are effectivly erased from existence, until even the ideea of him is lost.

Like Grant Morrison described it (and Kevdude pointed out), he is the abstract, infinite intelligence inside which the infinitley smaller concept of 'story' is developed. (story which contains the like of Spectre, Lucifer, Michael etc.) No in-story scale actually applies to him, since the story itself and all its characters are infinitesimal compared to itself.

theICONiac
According to the nerds over at Comic Vine:

http://www.comicvine.com/dc-power-rankings/12-42222/

Looks like Mandrakk might have some problems! Ultimator ain't such a pussy afterall...

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by theICONiac
According to the nerds over at Comic Vine:

http://www.comicvine.com/dc-power-rankings/12-42222/

Looks like Mandrakk might have some problems! Ultimator ain't such a pussy afterall...
The list is a complete utter mess, but I applaud them for their effort nonetheless.

Rama Kushna & Meshta is purely speculation.. they may or may not be an aspect of The Presence.

Destiny of The Endless
Archangel Gabriel
The Word (major lulz @ Tier 9?!)
Monsieur Stigmonus
Krona
are ranked too low.

Parallax is ranked waaaayyy too high in Tier 5. Srsly erm

"Superman-Prime (with the Monitor/Cosmic Armor)"?? huh

They forgot to add The Basanos, which should be somewhere in Tier 5.
And God Swamp Thing, who at least should be in Tier 3.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by theICONiac
According to the nerds over at Comic Vine:

http://www.comicvine.com/dc-power-rankings/12-42222/

Looks like Mandrakk might have some problems! Ultimator ain't such a pussy afterall... Not an accurate list.

Mandrakk is the darkness of the story. He should be in the top with Superman. The same place where it says Ultimate Darkness/ Ultimate Light

Why? Because Superman and Mandrakk represent that

DOn't even let me get started with there list from other tiers. Look where they put Spectre, Superman 1 Million, Mxy, Maggedon....etc

Sorry very wrong

theICONiac
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Not an accurate list.

Mandrakk is the darkness of the story. He should be in the top with Superman. The same place where it says Ultimate Darkness/ Ultimate Light

Why? Because Superman and Mandrakk represent that

DOn't even let me get started with there list from other tiers. Look where they put Spectre, Superman 1 Million, Mxy, Maggedon....etc

Sorry very wrong

Sorry, but your wankin' love-affair jwank with a sh!tty character from an even sh!ttier storyline can't deny what my handy-dandy Superman Encyclopedia says about the Ultimator:

*ahem*

"The joke was on Mxyzptlk when a 10 dimensional creature invaded Zrfff...the Ultimator, a 10-D nightmare who had already consumed four other dimensional realities and their lifeforms."

FOUR OTHER DIMENSIONAL REALITIES??? Pffft...you're right...Ultimator is chump change drylaugh

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