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For once i'll say:

3 areas of combat.

1. Sabers only
2. Force
3. All-out


I give dooku the edge with sabers,

Katarn with the force, and all-out.

Thats opinion though. will bring logic to bear on the matter when i start getting argued with!

1. Dooku
2. Katarn with diffuculty
3. katarn

Yeah I'm going with that.

so no one is going to argue? sad ) :

Well don't make such an easy one then. Give someone a gun or something.

i figured most would be on dooku's side to be honest.

Dooku's weak. One of the least impressive combatants you could place in these threads.

Originally posted by Mr Omiverseria
Dooku's weak. One of the least impressive combatants you could place in these threads. Yeah good luck with that.

Thank you.

I can see why people like him though. All these complaints about characters being overpowered and being Gary Stus and perfect etc. and Dooku isn't like that at all!

Originally posted by Mr Omiverseria
I can see why people like him though. All these complaints about characters being overpowered and being Gary Stus and perfect etc. and Dooku isn't like that at all! Yeh he was Sidious's b*tch.

If I'm not mistaken, so was everyone in the galaxy.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
If I'm not mistaken, so was everyone in the galaxy. Jar Jar wasn't.

WRONG. He served on the Imperial Senate after Padme's death.

Originally posted by Profligate
WRONG. He served on the Imperial Senate after Padme's death. Doens't make him Sidious's b*tch.

He got tricked by Palpatine and Mas Amedda in to proposing the Chancellor being given emergency powers. Didn't even take Force-persuasion or a decades-long scheme. Just a sad face and a "what would Padme do?"

Originally posted by Mr Omiverseria
Dooku's weak. One of the least impressive combatants you could place in these threads. And to give you more than a facetious remark to which you were oblivious, I'll copy and paste some lines with references to sources from Wookiee's article on Dooku:

Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. Along with Yoda, Dooku was one of only two Jedi who were known to have bested Mace Windu at sparring, and during the time of the Confederacy Crisis, it was said that aside from Yoda, only Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

His skill in Form II was such that he could hold his own against up to four opponents with little difficulty. He was one of a very few practitioners of dueling-centric Makashi in the Order at the time, and unmatched in his mastery of it.


You can obtain the sources themselves if you don't believe the references are legit.

You give Jar Jar too little credit he knew what they were planning in fact in the chain of command it went. Binks>Sidious>Others.

Dooku

Dooku has all three in the bag. Would he have been as good at killing many soldiers as Katarn? No. In a duel though he will definitely win.

Originally posted by mattatom
Bandon>Revan>Logic>Jabba>Sidious>Others>Binks

Fixed.

Originally posted by Profligate
Revan >>>>>>>>> LT >>> Logic >>>>>>> MU >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SW universe >>>>>>>>>>>>> SW galaxy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bandon = Yoda > Dooku > Kyle

Fixed

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And to give you more than a facetious remark to which you were oblivious, I'll copy and paste some lines with references to sources from Wookiee's article on Dooku:

Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. Along with Yoda, Dooku was one of only two Jedi who were known to have bested Mace Windu at sparring, and during the time of the Confederacy Crisis, it was said that aside from Yoda, only Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

His skill in Form II was such that he could hold his own against up to four opponents with little difficulty. He was one of a very few practitioners of dueling-centric Makashi in the Order at the time, and unmatched in his mastery of it.


You can obtain the sources themselves if you don't believe the references are legit.

Oh you were being facetious..? I genuinely had no idea, I thought you supported my cause and actually were wishing me luck with convincing the rest of the internet. I cannot believe I misread your true intentions, I feel SO embarrassed right now.

BTW, I remain entirely unimpressed. Give me something that actually means something in the grand scheme of things, and isn't verified solely by wikipedia.

Quick point as well:



That there were only a few practitioners of Makashi would actually undermine Dooku being unmatched in his mastery of the form given that he would have faced very little competition for such a status.

Originally posted by Profligate
Fixed. Conceded. Purely because Bandons at top.

Originally posted by Profligate
Sidious>Others>Binks

You miss the point entirely.

You're really unpleasant. Or really focused. I haven't decided yet.

Hello there.

Hello where?

Under there.

Under where?

Reported for inappropriate and off-topic posting. Have a good day.

So unpleasant.

Originally posted by Mr Omiverseria
BTW, I remain entirely unimpressed. Give me something that actually means something in the grand scheme of things, and isn't verified solely by wikipedia.

Quick point as well:



That there were only a few practitioners of Makashi would actually undermine Dooku being unmatched in his mastery of the form given that he would have faced very little competition for such a status. Did you not read "and during the time of the Confederacy Crisis, it was said that aside from Yoda, only Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."

Did you not see the number indicating the source it came from? Do you not have a bookstore nearby? Did you miss the line from Lucas about "you had to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious"? Did you miss his statement about the PT Order being the Golden Age of the Jedi? Oh, and did you miss the source's placing Dooku right in the top tier of that Golden Age? Do you understand the words you are reading?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Do you not have a bookstore nearby?

No.

BTW, still entirely unimpressed.

Originally posted by Mr Omiverseria
BTW, still entirely unimpressed. Well that's because you're an idiot. And a hick, if you have no local bookstore.

BTW, I would like you to adequately source the claim that the PT Jedi Order were the Golden Age of the Jedi, substantiate what that exactly means with respect to their lightsaber prowess, and then substantiate exactly what it specifically means to the very top end of the Order (and how it necessarily reflects on them, rather than just the lower or middle ends).

Also, pretending that it's my job to verify your points, I'll repeat; show me something that means anything in the grand scheme of things. Until then, Dooku will remain a moderately powerful, but wholly unremarkable combatant that the SW Mythos has to offer. Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron manipulating artificial black holes, Darth Bane channeling planetary scale Force lightning and manipulating subatomic particles, Exar Kun freezing hundreds of thousands of beings in place, Darth Sidious summoning Wormholes, Darth Sion simply willing himself into being immortal, Darth Nihilus pulling an entire fleet out of a gravity world and draining an entire planet's population etc.. are things that impress me, and are impressive in the grand scheme of things. Everything Count Dooku has ever displayed quite simply... isn't. As I said, Count Dooku will forever remain a relatively powerful individual, but an entirely unspectacular one. Until he starts approaching the extremes in terms of either power, precision, knowledge, or general skill, I will forever remain unimpressed.

So yeah, until you offer more to the table than inadequately sourced points that don't approach any of the true extremes we've come across in the mythos, I will continue to be unimpressed.

Wow didn't you put effort in to a triple post. I didn't read it because I stopped caring about convincing you. Go ask one of the others for detailed sources, they're where I get all my info.

He has a point here guys. (not talking to Neb, Rex)

Comparing EU feats with canon feats is just plain stupid. Writers have much more liberty when it comes to force exploits in the EU, because they don't have any limits. It's a matter of credibility.

You're comparing two very different things and you make that difference the foundation of your reasoning. Well done.

EU feats with Canon feats? Come again?

Originally posted by Hybris
Comparing EU feats with canon feats is just plain stupid. Writers have much more liberty when it comes to force exploits in the EU, because they don't have any limits. It's a matter of credibility.

You're comparing two very different things and you make that difference the foundation of your reasoning. Well done.

1. EU is a component of canon; they are not mutually exclusive. Is "movie" the word you were looking for there?

2. In what sense do writers have no limitations, but film makers do, with regards to character displays of ability?

3. Explain how out-of-story circumstances should be considered when examining the actual story, and how they should adjust the way we look at it.

4. Dooku has appeared in the EU, on numerous occasions, and it is where the vast majority of his displays of ability take place.

5. Who were you again?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wow didn't you put effort in to a triple post.

I did indeed.



Suuuuuuuure you didn't.



Well that's sensible.

Originally posted by Mr Omiverseria
Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron manipulating artificial black holes, Darth Bane channeling planetary scale Force lightning and manipulating subatomic particles, Exar Kun freezing hundreds of thousands of beings in place, Darth Sidious summoning Wormholes, Darth Sion simply willing himself into being immortal, Darth Nihilus pulling an entire fleet out of a gravity world and draining an entire planet's population etc.. are things that impress me, and are impressive in the grand scheme of things.

And did Kun's abilities serve him any good at the time of his death? Did Sidious kill Luke with a Force Storm? Did Sion (the immortal) kill the exile? Did Nihilus' (with the power to destroy planets), manage to defeat one Jedi? Their grand powers are unnecessary and excessive. Is that what impresses you? So by your logic, Nihilus is held in higher regard than his killer because he drained a planet of all life? Dooku needs not to have obliterated a fleet of ships to simply strike down a Jedi.



He was one of the most renowned swordsmen of all time, and he had an unmatched mastery of Makashi. Where was Kyp Durron depicted as someone who was even in the same league as Dooku?

Originally posted by Profligate
And did Kun's abilities serve him any good at the time of his death? Did Sidious kill Luke with a Force Storm? Did Sion (the immortal) kill the exile? Did Nihilus' (with the power to destroy planets), manage to defeat one Jedi? Their grand powers are unnecessary and excessive. Is that what impresses you? So by your logic, Nihilus is held in higher regard than his killer because he drained a planet of all life? Dooku needs not to have obliterated a fleet of ships to simply strike down a Jedi.
This argument is new to me. That doesn't make it a good one, just new.

You wish to argue that control of the Force in large scale applications does not translate to combat? (Just making sure.)

(Your specific rebuttal to N. is weak- you realize that the feat's splendor is not in its ability to manipulate ships but in the power required to move such a massive group of massive ships, right?)




Well, Kyp's Force power iswas second only to Luke (now Jacen too) and his showings are incredibly impressive. He is the battle master of the new order. I'm sure that wookieepedia can give you an idea of his standing- I assure you he has always been portrayed as a giant.

i thought katarn was the battle master of the NJO? remember that discussion over proper punctuation a few days ago? If the fact was wrong, why weren't we discussing that?

You're right, True Jedi. Kyle is the battlemaster of the NJO.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

This argument is new to me. That doesn't make it a good one, just new.

You wish to argue that control of the Force in large scale applications does not translate to combat? (Just making sure.)

(Your specific rebuttal to N. is weak- you realize that the feat's splendor is not in its ability to manipulate ships but in the power required to move such a massive group of massive ships, right?)


No, only that if such feats are so immense, why haven't Sidious and co used them to execute whatever threat was posed against them?

Yes, but as I previously mentioned, with such extraordinary powers (which i agree, are very useful), were of no use against their opposition.

And even if he is, where is it stated that he has become skilled enough to challenge Dooku?

Kyp wasn't the BM. My mistake.

Re-reading what I wrote, I suppose I didn't make it quite clear who I was referring to.

Wasn't Kyp the one that first moved the black hole?

Wasn't this thread about Kyle v Dooku?

Simple typo led to major confusion. No biggie.

No, because anyone who has displayed feats of grandeur is automatically > Dooku.

So you were arguing that Kyp > Dooku. The phrasing made that look like the opposite.


Oh, and strongly disagree.

I think:

Dooku > Kyp
Dooku > Katarn

ADD friendly.

Quick question, and i'm guessing advent knows:

What feats WITH THE FORCE are credited to Katarn? I always in my minds eye think of him in Jedi Knight, and later in Jedi Academy, but everything shown there is gameplay mechanics. What do we have on Katarn that isn't up for debate?

OK, I had missed this post:



Which (although, as noted, is silly) sums up your argument nicely.

Usually PIS. If N. can summon the bajillion tonnes of force required to lift the fleet then he can ragdoll the fvck out of three humanoids. Why didn't he? Because that wouldn't be fun for the player. Sidious has his own versions of PIS (getting shot by Han? Combined power of 3 Skywalkers? Losing control (I guess?) of his lightning on the DSII? .)


Yes, but as I previously mentioned, for the good guys to win (as they must) they have to win. To win they must be better than their enemy (which lends itself poorly to drama) or win by luck (PIS).


This is the job of someone with sources. I'm washing my hands of this point.

People shouldn't make threads like this. My level 1 force-insensitive consular killed Sion.

Kyle isn't found only in video games. So ur point faylz.

So you believe that Kyle is better than Dooku? Or are you only here to point out faulty assumptions? I'm here to learn.

Originally posted by Profligate
So you believe that Kyle is better than Dooku? Or are you only here to point out faulty assumptions? I'm here to learn. Well when you have the learning capacity of a lemming, it's difficult to want to teach you.

Originally posted by Profligate
And did Kun's abilities serve him any good at the time of his death?

You mean that time where every single living Jedi in the Galaxy -- thousands of Jedi -- had gathered together to stop him, combined their powers and covered the planet he was stationed on in a giant wall of light attack, where Exar Kun proceeded to willingly shed himself from his physical body so as to escape their collective might?

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here; it appears that you think that by pointing out that Exar Kun wasn't invincible or unstoppable, that it somehow undermines the display of power and ability I mentioned, which while not perfect, was far above the norm and suggestive of power and ability on the very extreme of scales (and something that Dooku hasn't come close to matching), which could be applied in a number of situations.



Would he have to for the ability to have merit? Again, the capacity of destruction that the ability possesses (being able to consume entire fleets and tear the surface off of worlds, something that could prove useful in a variety of different situations) has already been established; that he didn't use it in any given situation, critical or otherwise, does not undermine that.



Would he have to for the ability to have merit? That he didn't kill the Exile in the certain amount of time that the game depicts, before the dialogue that leads on to his entirely willing death begins, fails to undermine the merits of the ability (the advantages it would provide, both in combat and life, as well as what it suggests about the tools that enabled him such a unique ability).



Would he have to for his displayed power to have merit? There were only a handful of Jedi remaining during the events of KotOR 2, he mostly operated behind the scenes, but even then he displayed significant superiority over the likes of both the uniquely powerful Darth Sion, as well as Darth Traya, (where he dominates both of them using the Force, on two separate occasions) who herself was able to literally toy with three Jedi High Council members before killing them with no real display of effort.



Even if that were true, it's what they suggest about the individuals using the "excessive" powers that is impressive.

But it's mostly not true; Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron's manipulations of artificial black holes served the purpose of not only protecting their own forces from their power but also by turning it onto the opposing forces which granted them small scale wins during certain battles during the war. Darth Bane channelling all of that energy could be seen as fundamentally important in being able to devastate the Jedi forces that were stationed throughout the planet. Nihilus draining an entire planet of its inhabitants could be seen as essential for his own survival and satisfying his hunger. And the same applies for pretty much everything I stated; they all served a certain purpose, they were not unnecessary.



Displays of ability that deviate upwards and away from the norm to the greatest of extents? Yes. I will naturally be more impressed by the remarkable and spectacular than the unremarkable and the unspectacular.



No, my logic would be that Nihilus's displays of ability that deviate so significantly from the norm are far more impressive than displays that don't deviate so significantly form the norm, and they they suggest greater things about Nihilus than the less spectacular opposition.

Naturally, if his killer were to have defeated him in a manner that suggests superiority, than that in itself would be an extremely noteworthy display of ability that deviates heavily from the norm, and would suggest that he be of ability, at least in direct, close ranged combat, superior to Nihilus.

However, in this particular situation, we know that this wasn't the case; his "killer" was in fact three different opponents, who ambushed the Sith Lord in perhaps the weakest state we ever see him in, where he hadn't satisfied his hunger for days and was desperate for sustenance. Yet even then he displays the ability to quite casually place all three individuals into a stasis field, not only displaying firm superiority, even from a close range, but also leaving them completely at his mercy. Yet rather than going in for the kill, which he was entirely capable of, he decided to attempt to drain The Exile -- another wound in the Force -- of the Force, only to leave him further weakened. And yet even in this thoroughly weakened state, it required all three of them to take him down during a battle that was apparently so difficult that Visas Marr felt that he was still too strong for them and was almost giving up hope during it.

So really, if it was your intention to prove that he wasn't capable of defeating a single Jedi in close combat with all the power at his disposal, you failed miserably.



Naturally, but if all that was required to qualify as "impressive" was the ability to strike down a Jedi, then Dooku would share that characteristic with many, many different combatants featured throughout the mythos.

Obliterating a fleet, however, would suggest that his powers are of a far greater level than what evidence thus far would suggest.



Source and substantiate this.



Which is heavily undermined by how rarely practised the form was.



He wasn't; he was depicted as someone who was in a league several billions of leagues higher.

By displaying abilities that actually are impressive in the grand scheme of things (manipulating an artificial black hole, the gravitational field of which was so powerful that it was capable of dragging a moon out of its orbit), miles and miles above the norm and infinitely more spectacular than anything Dooku has ever displayed, he's depicted as being in an entirely different class. I'm sorry but based on what they've both displayed, Dooku doesn't come close.