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What if a 24th century Federation ground force came in contact with a modern USA ground force and they for some reason fought?

This is a very large plain with a few trees and rocks for cover.

Federation forces have typical composition.

USA forces have typical composition, ie infantry, tanks, etc.

Equal numbers

No element of surprise

No air support

Who would win?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What if a 24th century Federation ground force came in contact with a modern USA ground force and they for some reason fought?

This is a very large plain with a few trees and rocks for cover.

Federation forces have typical composition.

USA forces have typical composition, ie infantry, tanks, etc.

Equal numbers

No element of surprise

No air support

Who would win?

The federation.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The federation.

because...

does the Federation even have tanks?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
because...

does the Federation even have tanks?

Ali the Federation would have to do is a line of troops with phasers on wide stun. The US army would not even get a shoot throw their shields.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ali the Federation would have to do is a line of troops with phasers on wide stun. The US army would not even get a shoot throw their shields.

Really? How far is the range? Can it penetrate tank armor? Do the Federation troops have shields/armor capable of stopping artillery/tank rounds?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Really? How far is the range? Can it penetrate tank armor? Do the Federation troops have shields/armor capable of stopping artillery/tank rounds?

The federation can also do it from space.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The federation can also do it from space.

seriously? did you read the thread title? I specifically capitalized the ground in federation ground force in order to avoid this.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
seriously? did you read the thread title? I specifically capitalized the ground in federation ground force in order to avoid this.


OK, but it would just be a matter of time. The federation can out maneuver the US. The federation can replicate their own supply were as the US has to have supply lines. The federation would have air superiority, while the US would not even get anything off the ground. The federation could block all satellite communication, while the US would not even know how to receive subspace communication, let alone block it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK, but it would just be a matter of time. The federation can out maneuver the US. The federation can replicate their own supply were as the US has to have supply lines. The federation would have air superiority, while the US would not even get anything off the ground. The federation could block all satellite communication, while the US would not even know how to receive subspace communication, let alone block it.

you are talking about a war. I am talking about a battle, just ground, no air support, no supply lines, just a battle

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
you are talking about a war. I am talking about a battle, just ground, no air support, no supply lines, just a battle
There is no such thing. The US army will not go into battle with out air support, supply lines or communications.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
because...

does the Federation even have tanks?

they have craft called "hoppers" but they've only been referenced, and never seen on screen. of course, they have shuttlecraft too...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Really? How far is the range? Can it penetrate tank armor? Do the Federation troops have shields/armor capable of stopping artillery/tank rounds?

it can penetrate tank armour on medium settings. on full settings, entire battallions are getting vaporised.

Originally posted by -Pr-
they have craft called "hoppers" but they've only been referenced, and never seen on screen. of course, they have shuttlecraft too...



it can penetrate tank armour on medium settings. on full settings, entire battallions are getting vaporised.

Right, but no combat vehicles that have been used in the ST shows.

Where does it say this?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Right, but no combat vehicles that have been used in the ST shows.

Where does it say this?

about the hoppers or the phasers?

Originally posted by -Pr-
about the hoppers or the phasers?

phasers

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
phasers

from memory alpha:

Thanks.

That's neat, although I wonder why they don't use it more often. So if they get within range, they can defeat the US ground troops quite easily (although is there proof that it can destroy tanks?). However, do you know what its effective range is? That would matter alot in this fight.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Thanks.

That's neat, although I wonder why they don't use it more often. So if they get within range, they can defeat the US ground troops quite easily (although is there proof that it can destroy tanks?). However, do you know what its effective range is? That would matter alot in this fight.

if it can vaporise concrete, i doubt tank armour would be much of a problem.

they don't use it more often because it would make things too easy lol.

the range? hand phasers can hit at least a few hundred metres, based on the show itself. dunno if a range has ever been stated.

This is a stomp in the Federations favor. With tricorders, Starfleet forces could disrupt the US army's communication and computer systems, rendering strategic movements impossible. They have forcefields (which could even be improvised from phasers in emergencies), transporters (to capture enemy officers), and singe-man photon grenade launchers that can clear an entire hillside with a single shot. As previously mentioned, they have phasers and phaser rifles that can quickly disintegrate armored personnel and vehicles over a wide area. They also have the TR-116 rifle that can scan through rock, armor, and bunkers, and can teleport a tritanium projectile directly into the target from kilometers away. The ultimate sniper weapon.

I can assure you that the US Army isn't going to function well with all communications and computer systems disrupted. Add to that the technological and firepower advantages of Starfleet, and you have a stomp.

Yes, so it's highly likely that Starfleet wins. Remember however, that USA has:

tanks
artillery
mortars
machine guns
gernades
soldiers that are very used to fighting on ground
shotguns

most of which for some reason the Federation doesn't have; I have yet to see a single tank.

Oh, and by "battle" I mean a small scale battle of at most a few divisions, not a large scale strategic war.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Yes, so it's highly likely that Starfleet wins. Remember however, that USA has:

tanks
artillery
mortars
machine guns
gernades
soldiers that are very used to fighting on ground
shotguns

most of which for some reason the Federation doesn't have; I have yet to see a single tank.

Oh, and by "battle" I mean a small scale battle of at most a few divisions, not a large scale strategic war. So, in your scenario, you were picturing a few USGF divisions across a field from the Starfleet equivalent? Then they proceed to shoot at each other until one side wins?

Well, I'll break it down the way I see it:

Tanks: Starfleet doesn't use them because they are outdated. Shuttlecraft and fighters can perform the same role with superior mobility, defense, and firepower. Tanks really wouldn't be much of a threat due to a lack of protection against phasers (which could disintegrate the tanks with ease) and photon grenades (same effect as phasers only over a 100+ meter area.

Artillery: Again, phasers, phaser rifles, and photon grenades perform the same role as heavy artillery at a fraction of the size of the US Army's emplacements. Starfleet weapons also have far superior firepower (they can disintegrate unshielded material and uncouple multiple targets with a wide-setting blast). In addition, Starfleet has forcefields that can be deployed to protect against US artillery.

mortars-- see previous
machine guns-- see previous
grenades-- see previous

Soldiers that are very used to fighting on ground: Following the Dominion War, Starfleet personnel were very well acquainted with fighting ground wars against superior numbers and technology far beyond anything the US army has to offer. In addition, Starfleet has transporters that can teleport friendly soldiers to strategic battle locations, or simply remove enemy soldiers and equipment (the US army has no way to defend against this).

Shotguns: Phaser can instantly disintegrate single or multiple targets. A shotgun hardly compares.

Think of it this way. Its as if the modern US Army were fighting a Roman Legion from the 1st century. The Romans would fight with swords, spears, arrows, horses, metal armor, and chariots. The Romans would scoff at the US for not having any of these things. But you and I both know that such a battle would be a slaughter due to the superior technology of the US Army. Swords and spears are no match for modern firearms. Likewise, arrows would not be able to penetrate modern armor, nor even a single soldier's body armor.

Likewise, the technology of Starfleet (and tactics) would render the US Army obsolete.

You make good points, but:

This is only a ground battle. No air support or space support is allowed. Starfleet doesn't use tanks because they could just use fighters, but now in this case we're talking about a pure ground battle.

What is the range of a phaser? Artillery can strike from many kilometers away.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You make good points, but:

This is only a ground battle. No air support or space support is allowed. Starfleet doesn't use tanks because they could just use fighters, but now in this case we're talking about a pure ground battle.

What is the range of a phaser? Artillery can strike from many kilometers away.

But artillery would just impact on the shields and do no damage.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But artillery would just impact on the shields and do no damage.

Do ground Federation troops use shields? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Do ground Federation troops use shields? I don't think so.

Yes, they do. There was a next generation show were there was a storm on a planet (some kind of planet wide plasma storm). The people from the Enterprise used shield generators to hold the storm back while they evacuated the planet, and then they used the shields to protect themselves when they could not hold back the storm any longer.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, they do. There was a next generation show were there was a storm on a planet (some kind of planet wide plasma storm). The people from the Enterprise used shield generators to hold the storm back while they evacuated the planet, and then they used the shields to protect themselves when they could not hold back the storm any longer.

Please elaborate on the characteristics of that shield.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Please elaborate on the characteristics of that shield.

Why? Have you ever watched the show? If shields in Star Trek can deflect antimatter explosions, then they can stop conventional weapons (to the US army today), including nuclear weapons.

All they need is power, and they have more then enough of that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shields_(Star_Trek)

Why is this a thread?

Sorry I took me so long to respond, but:

Now I don't remember Federation GROUND forces regularly using shields.

Originally posted by NinthCorona
Why is this a thread?

What do you mean?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry I took me so long to respond, but:

Now I don't remember Federation GROUND forces regularly using shields.



What do you mean?

I didn't know "regularly using" was a requirement. On Star Trek, they rarely show ground battles.

i wish EU was canon. Star Trek EU has some scary shit when it comes to ground battles, even from starfleet. shit like hidden transporter pads that auto beam any poor soul who sets foot on them in to orbit and the like...

Originally posted by -Pr-
i wish EU was canon. Star Trek EU has some scary shit when it comes to ground battles, even from starfleet. shit like hidden transporter pads that auto beam any poor soul who sets foot on them in to orbit and the like...

Wow, that's cold-blooded.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wow, that's cold-blooded.

yup, but awesome at the same time.

they also had transporter scramblers. they wouldn't stop you beaming down, but as you materialised they'd scatter your molecules. i wonder if that's at all painful...

The Federation stomps

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
The Federation stomps

Because...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You make good points, but:

This is only a ground battle. No air support or space support is allowed. Starfleet doesn't use tanks because they could just use fighters, but now in this case we're talking about a pure ground battle.

What is the range of a phaser? Artillery can strike from many kilometers away.

US ground forces stomps!!! GO JOES!!!

USA all the way!!!!

happy?

Originally posted by bloodoverme
US ground forces stomps!!! GO JOES!!!

USA all the way!!!!

happy?

I'm not saying that USA wins, although since you apparently don't have any counter to my argument and try and make it so that I am the wrong one by making me seem like a persistent US fanboy without actually countering any of my points, I shall assume that you are admitting defeat.

Based on what I've seen in the show/movies, I don't see the Trek ground forces being able to just fight head on like soldiers. Except for that sweet ass dunebuggy, I don't remember any ground vehicles and they don't wear any armor. But I could see them being really effective if they used those cloaking suits and just walked in and wide beamed everything.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry I took me so long to respond, but:

Now I don't remember Federation GROUND forces regularly using shields.



What do you mean?

they are readily available, though, and they work. an artillery shell isn't penetrating one of those shields.