Greatest Lightsaber Duelist

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Yahweh
Anakin and Luke Skywalker demonstrated that they could both naturally learn and achieve new skills in saber combat faster than most previous swordsmen, Jedi and Sith alike. Anakin was able to best Dooku far before his greatly experienced Mentor in swordsmanship Obi-Wan Kenobi would have, and at an earlier age too. Luke showed even more progress than his Father despite the fact that he began training far later in life, it's even been hinted in an article entitled Fightsaber that Luke could mimic the forms and styles wielded by other swordsman just from facing them in combat. Whether or not Plageous designed the Choosen One to be skilled with a saber in his conception and whether this characteristic is more evolved in Luke or not is unknown.

Red Nemesis
It really sux that you took that name becauseIwantedit.

Welcome to KMC, thank you for opening a thread?

Incanus
Well, frankly i think this has been debated before..........


As for the mimic thingy the Exile could to, but she isnt the greatest.



Oh, and wrong forum :P we forgive u tho (you to Lucien)

RazorMesias
I don't know, it's hard to say =(

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Incanus
Well, frankly i think this has been debated before..........


As for the mimic thingy the Exile could to, but she isnt the greatest.



Oh, and wrong forum :P we forgive u tho (you to Lucien) You can't offer that! My forgiveness can only be portioned out by the cosmos.

Slash_KMC
Already banned for being a sock eh...

Hewhoknowsall
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Sidious?
3. Yoda
4. Mace Windu
5. Bane?

Elok Quintly
I'd agree with the aforementioned list. Dunno about Bane though.

truejedi
I'd say with a saber we are looking at:

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Mace
4. Sidious
5. Dooku, or perhaps Maul? or Kas'sim? or.... Yeah, you get it.

the Darkone
1. Luke/ Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Exar Kun
4. Revan
5. Dooku
6. Sidious
7. Bane
8. Malaik
9. Maul
10. Anakin

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by the Darkone
1. Luke/ Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Exar Kun
4. Revan
5. Dooku
6. Sidious
7. Bane
8. Malaik
9. Maul
10. Anakin

I'd put Anakin above Malik and Maul and Sidious above all but Luke and Yoda. Luke is above Yoda, and Bane is above Dooku.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by the Darkone
1. Luke/ Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Exar Kun
4. Revan
5. Dooku
6. Sidious
7. Bane
8. Malaik
9. Maul
10. Anakin

So many things wrong here.

But the thing that is wrong the most is the fact that you didn't put Revan at the top.

mattatom
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So many things wrong here.

But the thing that is wrong the most is the fact that you didn't put Bandon at the top.

Fixed

Jinsoku Takai
(auto quote)

I know Luke is portrayed as Uber, but I seriously doubt that his saber combat prowess is as high as Yoda's. Force wise maybe/probably, but he isn't a saber god. Just my humble opinion though. Let's not have an aneurysm over it.

Darth Subjekt
Well the fact that Anakin completely tooled Dooku puts him above Dooku on the list, not f below.

Lord Lucien
Depends on which Anakin it is. The guy had multiple personalities, I swear.

wolfpack86
1) Yoda
2) Luke Skywalker
3) Darth Sidious/Darth Caedus
4) Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker (aboard Invisible Hand)
5) Darth Tyranus
6) Obi Wan Kenobi/Darth Vader (presuit)
7) Darth Bane/Exar Kun/Darth Revan/Darth Maul/Asajj Ventress
8) Qui Gon Jinn/Kit Fisto/Shaak Ti/Darth Vader (suited)

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by wolfpack86
1) Yoda
2) Luke Skywalker
3) Darth Sidious/Darth Caedus
4) Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker (aboard Invisible Hand)
5) Darth Tyranus
6) Obi Wan Kenobi/Darth Vader (presuit)
7) Darth Bane/Exar Kun/Darth Revan/Darth Maul/Asajj Ventress
8) Qui Gon Jinn/Kit Fisto/Shaak Ti/Darth Vader (suited)

I don't think that Yoda > Luke in sabers

And Bane/Kun/Revan might be above 6 and 5

Jinsoku Takai

truejedi
u put them in tiers and then don't put luke in the top tier? Really?

Slash_KMC

the Darkone
Revised


1. Yoda/ Luke/ Revan/ Sidious
2. Mace Windu/ Dooku/ Darth Traya
3. Darth Caedus/ Kas'sim
4. Obi Wan- Kenobi/ Anakin/
5. Darth Bane/ Exar Kun/ Ulic
6. Maul/ Malik
7. Qui-Gon Jin/ Shaak Ti

Lord Lucien
Why are Revan, Malak, and Traya up there? Why is Bane so far beneath Kas'im? Why isn't Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto there, but Jinn is? Where's Katarn?

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by truejedi
u put them in tiers and then don't put luke in the top tier? Really?

Yeah... really!!! It's my interpretation dude. What of it? I don't regard NJO shit as highly as most around here. So What? In pure combat, Luke might be top tier, but as far as a lightsaber duelist... I think not.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Can't anyone put together a decent order these days?

Mace and Dooku were said to be equals in combat, Luke is definitely in the top tier and what has Galen Marek proven with a lightsaber?

Galen/Starkiller WTF PWN'D Darth Vader w/ a lightsaber. Absolutely tooled his ass. And Mace would wipe the floor w/ Dooku. As for Luke; read my last post.

Azhakelli
1. Yoda - extremely quick and agile, hundreds of years old so he's probably extremely experienced, also really hard to hit due to his size.

2. Kas'im - mastered all the forms and was arguably the best swordsman ever.

3. Count Dooku - able to compete with Yoda, take on both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time and he seemed to do so pretty effortlessly.

4. Bane - really powerful in the Force and had moved beyond sheer moves and sequences, completely trashed Sirak who was a prodigy and the most powerful Apprentice in the Academy, and was able to overwhelm Kas'im in the early segment of their duel.

5. Darth Sidious? I feel he feigned weakness and threw the fight with Mace Windu to help turn Anakin to the darkside, and he seemed to be performing pretty well against Yoda.

Azhakelli
Oops, forgot about Darth Maul, he was able to take on both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, maybe put him at 5 and Sidious at 6?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah... really!!! It's my interpretation dude. What of it? I don't regard NJO shit as highly as most around here. So What? In pure combat, Luke might be top tier, but as far as a lightsaber duelist... I think not.

Nobody on this forum cares about your "interpretation", dude. If you can't back up your posts, then don't post. This isn't an opinion based forum, but an argument based forum. Either put up or shut up.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nobody on this forum cares about your "interpretation", dude. If you can't back up your posts, then don't post. This isn't an opinion based forum, but an argument based forum. Either put up or shut up. I really feel you have a point, you know? In my opinion, you're statement makes sense. I interpret it to be correct.

Dr McBeefington
ROFL

Slash_KMC

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Azhakelli
Oops, forgot about Darth Maul, he was able to take on both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, maybe put him at 5 and Sidious at 6?

Tell me you're kidding. Please.

Red Nemesis
no

Red Nemesis
Crap! wrong account!

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/mspa_face.gif

mattatom
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Crap! wrong account!

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/mspa_face.gif Thats the same problem HWKA/Anderson have!

Red Nemesis
OHH SHI-

mattatom
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
OHH SHI- Thats what she said!

truejedi
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah... really!!! It's my interpretation dude. What of it? I don't regard NJO shit as highly as most around here. So What? In pure combat, Luke might be top tier, but as far as a lightsaber duelist... I think not.

regarding something or not doesn't make it more or less applicable "dude"

Now cower before me, or i will, i warn thee, pull out Clone Wars Logic on your ass, the like of which this forum will have NEVER seen.

Gideon
In random order:

Anoon Bondara
Sora Bulq
Qui-Gon Jinn
Luke Skywalker
The Emperor
Mace Windu
Darth Maul
Count Dooku
Yoda
Kas'im
Grievous
Darth Vader
Exar Kun
Ulic Qel Droma

Red Nemesis
he poasts!

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I don't think that Yoda > Luke in sabers


I do, Luke nearly lost to Caedus in a lightsaber duel. Yoda has hundreds of years of dueling experience and has never lost a lightsaber duel to my knowledge. He was taking it to Darth Tyranus on two separate occasions, one when Tyranus was on Vjun, which amped his power greatly. And against Darth Sidious he was clearly the better saberist, (every saber lock Sidioius is grunting and moaning, eventually Sidious must realize that Yoda is too good, as the rest of the battle he is running from Yoda, (not to mention the fact that you never see Sidious's saber again after he leaves the initial dueling pod).

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by wolfpack86
I do, Luke nearly lost to Caedus in a lightsaber duel. Yoda has hundreds of years of dueling experience and has never lost a lightsaber duel to my knowledge. He was taking it to Darth Tyranus on two separate occasions, one when Tyranus was on Vjun, which amped his power greatly. And against Darth Sidious he was clearly the better saberist, (every saber lock Sidioius is grunting and moaning, eventually Sidious must realize that Yoda is too good, as the rest of the battle he is running from Yoda, (not to mention the fact that you never see Sidious's saber again after he leaves the initial dueling pod). Ummm, just because Bob never lost to Ted, doesn't mean Bob>>Joe.

translation:

Just because Yoda never lost to Dooku, doesn't mean Yoda>>Luke.

You hear what I'm saying, yo?



Oh and there's no evidence that Yoda disarmed Sidious, just as there's no evidence that Yoda didn't disarm Sidious. It's all speculation. To my knowledge.

truejedi
wolfpack, where the hell did luke "almost lose" a lightsaber duel with Caedus? I sure hope you aren't referring to their fight on-board the invisible hand, because then you would be totally wrong.

Good luck proving your point though.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Gideon
In random order:

Anoon Bondara
Sora Bulq
Qui-Gon Jinn
Luke Skywalker
The Emperor
Mace Windu
Darth Maul
Count Dooku
Yoda
Kas'im
Grievous
Darth Vader
Exar Kun
Ulic Qel Droma

Still too stubborn to add Obi-Wan or Anakin Skywalker I see, unless you meant Anakin by saying Darth Vader.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ummm, just because Bob never lost to Ted, doesn't mean Bob>>Joe.

translation:

Just because Yoda never lost to Dooku, doesn't mean Yoda>>Luke.

You hear what I'm saying, yo?



Oh and there's no evidence that Yoda disarmed Sidious, just as there's no evidence that Yoda didn't disarm Sidious. It's all speculation. To my knowledge.


Yeah, I realize all that, it just seems to me that Luke had to struggle mightily with Caedus, and the battle ended in a virtual stalemate. (That's not to say that Caedus is insignificant at all). Yoda on the other hand, seemed to be, you could almost say tooling some of the greatest saber dueling incarnations ever (Tyranus on Vjun and Darth Sidious). IMO Yoda's saber dueling feats are just better than what Luke was shown capable of. That's why I have Yoda as #1

mattatom
Caedus was stated to be "greater than his grandfather" who was "80% of Sidious" so for all we know Caedus could be 100% the power of Sidious or 81% of him we don't exactly have a chart for power levels. Though I do know, Bandon: http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/363/original/over9000.jpg

Hewhoknowsall
Funny:

If person A (who is highly regarded) almost loses/loses to person B (who isn't all that highly regarded) either both or one of the following happens:

They use B as the benchmark and say "oh since A lost to B that means that he's very bad because B isn't that good!"

And/or

They use A as the benchmark and say "oh since A lost to B and A is very good that must mean that B is very good!"

In this case, Luke having trouble with Caedus is either a good feat for Caedus or a bad feat for Luke...

Oh, and Caedus might be better than Dooku in sabers, so Yoda beating Dooku doesn't mean much...

mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Funny:

If person A (who is highly regarded) almost loses/loses to person B (who isn't all that highly regarded) either both or one of the following happens:

They use B as the benchmark and say "oh since A lost to B that means that he's very bad because B isn't that good!"

And/or

They use A as the benchmark and say "oh since A lost to B and A is very good that must mean that B is very good!"

In this case, Luke having trouble with Caedus is either a good feat for Caedus or a bad feat for Luke...

Oh, and Caedus might be better than Dooku in sabers, so Yoda beating Dooku doesn't mean much... I think it's the fact he mentioned Dooku was on Vjun therefore extra power from the planet.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by wolfpack86
Yeah, I realize all that, it just seems to me that Luke had to struggle mightily with Caedus, and the battle ended in a virtual stalemate. (That's not to say that Caedus is insignificant at all). Yoda on the other hand, seemed to be, you could almost say tooling some of the greatest saber dueling incarnations ever (Tyranus on Vjun and Darth Sidious). IMO Yoda's saber dueling feats are just better than what Luke was shown capable of. That's why I have Yoda as #1 You're comparing an apple to a celery stalk. Yoda's victories over Dooku and possible disarming of Palpatine have NO correlation to Luke and Caedus' duel. They're not related. At all.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're comparing an apple to a celery stalk. Yoda's victories over Dooku and possible disarming of Palpatine have NO correlation to Luke and Caedus' duel. They're not related. At all.


The question is who's the better lightsaber duelist, IMO Yoda's "showings" are above Luke's, take what you will from that.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by mattatom
I think it's the fact he mentioned Dooku was on Vjun therefore extra power from the planet.

thumb up

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Funny:

If person A (who is highly regarded) almost loses/loses to person B (who isn't all that highly regarded) either both or one of the following happens:

They use B as the benchmark and say "oh since A lost to B that means that he's very bad because B isn't that good!"

And/or

They use A as the benchmark and say "oh since A lost to B and A is very good that must mean that B is very good!"

In this case, Luke having trouble with Caedus is either a good feat for Caedus or a bad feat for Luke...

Oh, and Caedus might be better than Dooku in sabers, so Yoda beating Dooku doesn't mean much...

It is "possible" Caedus was better than Dooku in sabers, but when you cosider quotes about Dooku such as... "he was one of the greatest jedi in 25,000 year history of the jedi order, and an even greater sith lord" and when you consider he was on Vjun, which greatly amped his power, which is noted by quotes such as this... "The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking, among the other jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground, but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible wickedness cut in red light."

This obviously shows that Dooku was being amped by the planet, and it also goes to say that even Mace Windu would not have been able to match Dooku on Vjun. IMO Yoda taking it to Dooku on Vjun is one of the greatest saberist showings ever. What I'm saying is, I think that Dooku on Vjun, would at the very least be very close to Caedus in sabers, if not beyond.

\\S//
yeah yeah yeah, darth maul was a savage, dooku was skilled...but anakin was a mother****ing monster

anakins right arm didnt havehuman mobility but that didnt stop an entire temple of armed jedi from shitting themselves before anakin slaughtered em faster than the 501st infantry

obi-wan didnt want to die so he ran away from anakin and disabled the mother****er in mid-air, that wasnt fair cause anakin never got his top-rail-movement back

mattatom
Anakin was only a "monster" when he gave into his rage. Which he did twice, notably. Against Dooku, and agains tObi Wan, it mad ehim cocky so Obi Wan, dismembere dhim served the poor mucker right. Like to point out "entire temple of armed jedi" if your including younglings here i'll give you that, but i'd like to point out the majority of jedi knights/masters were in the Grand Army of the Republic, Anakin killed younglings, Drallig and his apprentice because he was stronger in the Force.

truejedi
um... nobody bothers to point out the obvious that the Luke, Caedus fight WAS NOT almost a stalemate.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
um... nobody bothers to point out the obvious that the Luke, Caedus fight WAS NOT almost a stalemate.

The reality is Ben had to come to Luke's aid by stabbing Caedus in the back, had he not Luke likely would have died.

truejedi
actually, no.
wolfpack, meet reality:



Omnipotent narrator says that Ben saved Caedus's life by stabbing him in the back.

Your move.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
actually, no.
wolfpack, meet reality:



Omnipotent narrator says that Ben saved Caedus's life by stabbing him in the back.

Your move.


O.K. I forgot exactly how it was worded, either way your quote proves that Luke had sustained "injuries" in his duel with Caedus, so it was at the very least a close duel, or else Luke would not have sustained any injuries.

Lord Lucien
Very nice, but what does the Luke/Caedus duel have to do with the Yoda/Dooku duel?

truejedi
the part where he said Luke and Caedus fought to a stalemate. which was lies. (which is what was being discusses before you barged in and INTERRUPTED us with your yoda/dooku babble! mad )

just kidding lucien, love you long time.

angel

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Very nice, but what does the Luke/Caedus duel have to do with the Yoda/Dooku duel?

I guess a person needs to ask themselves a few questions like...

1) How good do you think Caedus was?
2) How much better do you think Luke was than Caedus?
3) Do you think that Caedus could have beaten Dooku on Vjun?
4) Do you think that Caedus could have beaten Mace Windu?

If your answers to either 3 or 4 is no, then you can at least somewhat gauge where Luke and Caedus are in terms of lightsaber prowess.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by wolfpack86
I guess a person needs to ask themselves a few questions like...

1) How good do you think Caedus was?
2) How much better do you think Luke was than Caedus?
3) Do you think that Caedus could have beaten Dooku on Vjun?
4) Do you think that Caedus could have beaten Mace Windu?

If your answers to either 3 or 4 is no, then you can at least somewhat gauge where Luke and Caedus are in terms of lightsaber prowess. Actually, none of that is helpful to us. As someone (Beefy I think) pointed out recently, we're a forum of fact-finders, not opinionaters. In specific regards to lightsaber combat, using Yoda's victories over Dooku as a measurement in which to gauge Yoda's skills in regards to LotF Luke's, is complete speculation, and, if pushed as fact, it's also baloney.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
the part where he said Luke and Caedus fought to a stalemate. which was lies. (which is what was being discusses before you barged in and INTERRUPTED us with your yoda/dooku babble! mad )

just kidding lucien, love you long time.

angel Why you... if you were a woman I'd slug you.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Actually, none of that is helpful to us. As someone (Beefy I think) pointed out recently, we're a forum of fact-finders, not opinionaters. In specific regards to lightsaber combat, using Yoda's victories over Dooku as a measurement in which to gauge Yoda's skills in regards to LotF Luke's, is complete speculation, and, if pushed as fact, it's also baloney.

I also did. A lot of times.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Actually, none of that is helpful to us. As someone (Beefy I think) pointed out recently, we're a forum of fact-finders, not opinionaters. In specific regards to lightsaber combat, using Yoda's victories over Dooku as a measurement in which to gauge Yoda's skills in regards to LotF Luke's, is complete speculation, and, if pushed as fact, it's also baloney.


Well in that case, their isn't much to go on to determine just how good the jedi from the NJO are, but Lucas himself said that he centered the movies around the most powerful jedi to ever exist. So IMO I would have to say that someone the likes of Mace Windu or Darth Tyranus, would be just as powerful as someone like Darth Caedus, if not more so.

Slash_KMC
Stop saying "in my opinion". It's weird to say in the Versus Forum section.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
actually, no.
wolfpack, meet reality:



Omnipotent narrator says that Ben saved Caedus's life by stabbing him in the back.

Your move.

Not to split hairs, but I believe that the LOTF and most other SW series are written in 3rd person limited, NOT 3rd person omniscient.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by wolfpack86
Well in that case, their isn't much to go on to determine just how good the jedi from the NJO are, but Lucas himself said that he centered the movies around the most powerful jedi to ever exist. So IMO I would have to say that someone the likes of Mace Windu or Darth Tyranus, would be just as powerful as someone like Darth Caedus, if not more so. Well using a bit of A>B>C:

DE Palpatine was Palpatine at his most powerful, and in a saber duel, Luke beat him (with a little help from his sister). He actually fought Palpatine on a level hovering around the Emperor's abilities. That was like 11 ABY. Jump forward to 40 ABY. Ka-kow.


And yes, please, enough with the IMO.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Well using a bit of A>B>C:

DE Palpatine was Palpatine at his most powerful, and in a saber duel, Luke beat him (with a little help from his sister). He actually fought Palpatine on a level hovering around the Emperor's abilities. That was like 11 ABY. Jump forward to 40 ABY. Ka-kow.


And yes, please, enough with the IMO.


First off, everyone is giving an opinion, regardless of what a person says, their still going to say what "they think" to be the case, based on "their viewpoint". I'm just stating "IMO" so that people don't think that I think my opinion is the end all be all.

And I doubt that Luke in 40 ABY is much more powerful than Luke in 11 ABY, that's like saying ROTS Obi-Wan is vastly less powerful than ANH Obi-Wan, I just don't see it.

truejedi
except luke has been through several galaxy wide conflicts and killed dozens and dozens and dozens of enemies with his lightsaber, sparred with other Jedi masters, and developed new lightsaber techniques, while ANH Kenobi hid on tatooine.

I see quite a difference in the two situations.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
except luke has been through several galaxy wide conflicts and killed dozens and dozens and dozens of enemies with his lightsaber, sparred with other Jedi masters, and developed new lightsaber techniques, while ANH Kenobi hid on tatooine.

I see quite a difference in the two situations.

So just because you kill a bunch of people and do some sparring that means you become vastly more powerful? So I suppose that's what happened to ANH Kenobi, he didn't do anything and so he became less powerful? By that logic I suppose Palpatine became far less powerful by the time ROTS rolled around, being as he wasn't able to kill too many people or have very many sparring matches?

truejedi
um.. experience obviously breeds skill. DOes that even really need defending? so if your question was genuine, i simply say

yes.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
um.. experience obviously breeds skill. DOes that even really need defending? so if your question was genuine, i simply say

yes.

O.K. my question to you is, how much more powerful percentage wise do "you think" wink Luke is in 40 ABY in contrast to 11 ABY?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by wolfpack86
O.K. my question to you is, how much more powerful percentage wise do "you think" wink Luke is in 40 ABY in contrast to 11 ABY? By 43 ABY Luke could teleport things and "instakill" beings via Electric Judgement. During the final battle with Shimrra Luke was described as looking like he was wielding 20 blades against the Vong. He didn't have that stuff in 11 ABY.

truejedi
Originally posted by wolfpack86
O.K. my question to you is, how much more powerful percentage wise do "you think" wink Luke is in 40 ABY in contrast to 11 ABY?

considering he has gone from 10 years of experience to 40 as a jedi (400 percent increase in years of training)

I'd say at least 100 to 150 percent. At least. All we have to back something like that up are feats, and his feats have increased by a ridiculous magnitude at this point..

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
considering he has gone from 10 years of experience to 40 as a jedi (400 percent increase in years of training)

I'd say at least 100 to 150 percent. At least. All we have to back something like that up are feats, and his feats have increased by a ridiculous magnitude at this point..

So let me ask you a second question, why do you think Luke is twice as powerful, (and just so we don't get confused, being powerful doesn't equal uber lightsaber skills) where is the "proof" that Luke is twice the saberist he was in 11 ABY?

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
By 43 ABY Luke could teleport things and "instakill" beings via Electric Judgement. During the final battle with Shimrra Luke was described as looking like he was wielding 20 blades against the Vong. He didn't have that stuff in 11 ABY.

Mace Windu was described as being invisible, 20 blades doesn't seem that impressive.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by wolfpack86
Mace Windu was described as being invisible, 20 blades doesn't seem that impressive. Against Sidious he was described as a blur. Poetic licensing. No one's saying Mace isn't f*cking good, don't presume that.

Elok Quintly
Leia and unborn Anakin's influence on Luke's victory seemed to be more of an asset than people realize. Not too much earlier, Sidious destroyed Luke in a lightsaber duel.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
By 43 ABY Luke could teleport things and "instakill" beings via Electric Judgement. During the final battle with Shimrra Luke was described as looking like he was wielding 20 blades against the Vong. He didn't have that stuff in 11 ABY.

In regards to luke being better at saber combat than Windu; Mace was descibed in the RoTS novel as "dozens of blades attacking from every angle" Dozens > 20. So, while Luke is an impressive duelist, he is by no means the greatest or even one of the greatest ever, relative to the likes of Yoda, Mace, and Sidious.

Slash_KMC

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Leia and unborn Anakin's influence on Luke's victory seemed to be more of an asset than people realize. Not too much earlier, Sidious destroyed Luke in a lightsaber duel.


Oh yes you reminded me, I was thinking of that and then I forgot. Yes Luke was indeed getting "a lot" of help in his duel with Sidious.

mattatom

Nephthys
Actually, you missed the point.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Against Sidious he was described as a blur. Poetic licensing. No one's saying Mace isn't f*cking good, don't presume that.

I'm talking about when Depa was watching him fight, If I recall, she described him as being "invisible". I wasn't presuming anything. What I said is, Mace's description in combat, was more impressive than Luke's.

mattatom
Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, you missed the point. No i just didn't address it, Luke is one of the best duelists in the mythos. That's not up for discussion.

Jinsoku Takai

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yes, that's what I said... kind of...relative to the likes of Yoda, Mace, and Sidious... Yeah you forgot that detail...

Yeah... But you still said he was by no means... one of the greatest ever... relative to the likes of Y,M and S... I'm pretty sure... you mean that he isn't... in the same tier as them... which he actually... is.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

...and show me the source that explicitly states that Vaapad isn't effective against "lightsiders".

While I know that Vaapad might be enhanced by a darksiders anger/hate/rage, it isn't null and void against all others. Remember that ones own inner darkness is channeled/harnessed/focused into a "weapon of light".

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center. And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." -RotS novel

It redirects the opponents darkness at him. Light siders don't fight like dark siders do.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yeah... But you still said he was by no means... one of the greatest ever... relative to the likes of Y,M and S... I'm pretty sure... you mean that he isn't... in the same tier as them... which he actually... is.



"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center. And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." -RotS novel

It redirects the opponents darkness at him. Light siders don't fight like dark siders do.

Once again, show me a source that states, EXPLICITLY, that Vaapad is NOT effective against anyone other than darksiders. The example you just mentioned fails to exclude Vaapad as being effective against "lightsiders". It was actually a kind of "confusion of the inverse" example. And, I fail to see any of Lukes feats w/ a lightsaber as being enough to place him in the same tier as Yoda, Mace, and Sidious. I know Luke is a ****ing beast, but he isn't at the same level as the afore mentioned three with a lightsaber.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Once again, show me a source that states, EXPLICITLY, that Vaapad is NOT effective against anyone other than darksiders. The example you just mentioned fails to exclude Vaapad as being effective against "lightsiders". It was actually a kind of "confusion of the inverse" example. And, I fail to see any of Lukes feats w/ a lightsaber as being enough to place him in the same tier as Yoda, Mace, and Sidious. I know Luke is a ****ing beast, but he isn't at the same level as the afore mentioned three with a lightsaber.

So, it is proven that Vaapad is very effective against someone who is strong in the dark side and uses rage and fury in battle. But now you want me to prove that it would not be effective against a light sider who doesn't use his rage and fury in battle.

I'm going to use those three characters you provided. Sidious and Yoda stalemated in RotS. Mace Windu used Vaapad against Sidious and defeated him with it. But when Mace Windu uses Vaapad against Yoda, he will lose. Because Vaapad against a light sider is just plain Juyo and doesn't benefit from the advantages that Vaapad provides.

I don't know why this simple concept is so difficult to grasp.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So, it is proven that Vaapad is very effective against someone who is strong in the dark side and uses rage and fury in battle. But now you want me to prove that it would not be effective against a light sider who doesn't use his rage and fury in battle.

I'm going to use those three characters you provided. Sidious and Yoda stalemated in RotS. Mace Windu used Vaapad against Sidious and defeated him with it. But when Mace Windu uses Vaapad against Yoda, he will lose. Because Vaapad against a light sider is just plain Juyo and doesn't benefit from the advantages that Vaapad provides.

I don't know why this simple concept is so difficult to grasp.

Yoda and Sidious stalemated yes, but Yoda had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber. Moreover, I think that had the fight happened again, Yoda would have conquered Sidious, seeing as how Yoda losing his grip on the senate pod lead to the stalemate. Yoda not only had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber, but absorbed Sidious' lightning as well, leading to the oh shit i'm 'bout to get ****ed like a drunken prom whore look. Yoda > Sidious. Also, it's funny how Depa used Vaapad against Mace (lightsider) during their duel in Shatterpoint. It wasn't Juyo, it was Vaapad. Yeah... that kind of puts a big shittin' halt to your argument. So, this simple concept that you're posturing isn't hard at all to grasp, it's just simply untrue. You misunderstand the sources that you read. Thanks, that was fun.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yoda and Sidious stalemated yes, but Yoda had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber. Moreover, I think that had the fight happened again, Yoda would have conquered Sidious, seeing as how Yoda losing his grip on the senate pod lead to the stalemate. Yoda not only had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber, but absorbed Sidious' lightning as well, leading to the oh shit i'm 'bout to get ****ed like a drunken prom whore look. Yoda > Sidious.

Have you read the novel? If anything, it is clearly depicted as Yoda having lost the battle, not only because he couldn't hold on to the pod, but because he couldn't overpower Sidious:

-
Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just didn't have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.
-

Now you have to prove that Yoda had the upper hand with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Also, it's funny how Depa used Vaapad against Mace (lightsider) during their duel in Shatterpoint. It wasn't Juyo, it was Vaapad. Yeah... that kind of puts a big shittin' halt to your argument.

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, Mace Windu could channel his own emotions using Vaapad, but when facing a dark sider, he can also redirect his opponents emotions at themselves. Hence the term, 'superconducting loop'.

Mace was able to control Vaapad because of his mastery of the light side, while Depa fell to the Dark Side. If Depa would have fought someone like Maul or Vader, Vaapad would have allowed her to channel their anger too, which would have made her even more powerful than when she was fighting Windu.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah... that kind of puts a big shittin' halt to your argument. So, this simple concept that you're posturing isn't hard at all to grasp, it's just simply untrue. You misunderstand the sources that you read. Thanks, that was fun.

Oh, you're a touchy one.

truejedi
this "dozens" versus 20 strikes at once point is kinda silly and moot.

We all have agreed in the past, that the only thing being proven in these kinds of statements is that the author is showing augmented speed. Bane has similar statements attributed to him. So does Depa, so does Kit Fisto i believe. (The blur, more lightsabers than... etc... comments.)

The only true comparison we can go with is feats, and we have many more feats with a lightsaber from Luke Skywalker than from either Yoda or Sidious or Mace.

mattatom
I agree it's silly and moot TJ, just trying to clarify. I think msot of the 'sane' people here would say, Luke is a top tier duelist with sabers.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by truejedi
this "dozens" versus 20 strikes at once point is kinda silly and moot.

We all have agreed in the past, that the only thing being proven in these kinds of statements is that the author is showing augmented speed. Bane has similar statements attributed to him. So does Depa, so does Kit Fisto i believe. (The blur, more lightsabers than... etc... comments.)

The only true comparison we can go with is feats, and we have many more feats with a lightsaber from Luke Skywalker than from either Yoda or Sidious or Mace.
thumb up

Also: Jinsoku is in the right, Slash.

Moar from me once I regain internet and loose the noose of apathy.

I proamise.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Slash_KMC


-
Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just didn't have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.

Movie > Book. In the film Yoda is clearly the better saberist, end of story.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by wolfpack86
Movie > Book From Wookiee:

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).

So long as the narrative doesn't contradict the movie, it's cool.

Unfortunately for you, friendo, there's nothing in either the novel or the movie to suggest that Yoda betsed Sidious, or if Sidious bested Yoda.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Unfortunately for you, friendo, there's nothing in either the novel or the movie to suggest that Yoda betsed Sidious, or if Sidious bested Yoda.


Yeah other than the fact that Yoda was winning every saber lock, and Sidious was running from him the entire time. EDIT: Oh btw, I'm talking about their saber duel, not the fight as a whole, I realize that obviously ended in a stalemate.

wolfpack86

wolfpack86
Oh, and if you want to use something other than the movie than there's this...

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.


ROTS script...


YODA: (continuing) If so powerful you are, why leave??

YODA ignites his lightsaber.

DARTH SlDIOUS: You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.

DARTH SIDIOUS ignites his lightsaber.

YODA: Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the Force.

Their swords CLASH. The battle is extremely fast and furious.


201 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMBER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space.


203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.


So yeah, Yoda > Sidious in sabers.

truejedi
Hate to point it out wolfpack, but from your logic, Mace looking like he had 20 sabers never happened either!

Movie> Book you say, and then point out the slowest fight in the PT to prove that mace is a great swordsman?

You might want to rethink that stance.

Lord Lucien

truejedi
i'm pretty sure someone ( i think it was Gideon with his source-books) Had a source that stated Yoda disarmed Sidious before the part of the fight that we see in the Rotunda.

Lord Lucien
Sweet, if the little bastard was around more often he could be saving us trouble.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
Hate to point it out wolfpack, but from your logic, Mace looking like he had 20 sabers never happened either!

Movie> Book you say, and then point out the slowest fight in the PT to prove that mace is a great swordsman?

You might want to rethink that stance.


I wasn't talking about the Mace and Sidious duel. I said Depa was watching Mace while he was fighting, and she said, "if I remember correctly" that it was as if he was "invisible".

truejedi
fighting who? He only fought Vastor, am i right? And i don't think any of that book came from Depa's point of view. Maybe he was invisible to Nick Rostu WHEN he(Mace) was fighting Depa? Then we get into the whole, Nick Rostu didn't know how to use the force, and of course it was invisible to HIM argument.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
i'm pretty sure someone ( i think it was Gideon with his source-books) Had a source that stated Yoda disarmed Sidious before the part of the fight that we see in the Rotunda.

Which would coincide with the script and the film (that scene in the film is just never shown, as Yoda and Sidious are dueling, they break to Anakin and Obi-wan dueling, and when they return to the Yoda Sidious match, Sidious is tossing senate pods, you never see his saber again).

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
fighting who? He only fought Vastor, am i right? And i don't think any of that book came from Depa's point of view. Maybe he was invisible to Nick Rostu WHEN he(Mace) was fighting Depa? Then we get into the whole, Nick Rostu didn't know how to use the force, and of course it was invisible to HIM argument.


Yes it was him fighting Vastor, I thought it was from Depa's viewpoint, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway the quote is something like this...

But where Vastor's speed is blinding, Mace's was invisible

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
thumb up

Also: Jinsoku is in the right, Slash.

Moar from me once I regain internet and loose the noose of apathy.

I proamise.

About what?

Luke not being in the same tier as Yoda, Sidious and Mace?

Yoda being better than Sidious?

Vaapad being just as effective against lightsiders, as darksiders?

I'm looking forward to which of these you think is true.

wolfpack86
With getting plenty of time to think about this, and with new thoughts and people brought to mind, my revised list is as follows...


1) Yoda
2) Luke Skywalker/DE Darth Sidious
3) Darth Tyranus (on Vjun)
4) Mace Windu/Darth Sidious/Anakin Skywalker (aboard invisible hand)
5) Darth Caedus/Darth Tyranus
6) Obi-Wan Kenobi/Darth Bane/Darth Vader (presuit)
7) Exar Kun/Kas'im/Ulic Qel Droma/Darth Maul
8) Darth Revan/General Grievous/Assaj Ventress/Darth Krayt/Darth Vader (suited)
9) Qui-Gon Jinn/Anoon Bondara/Sora Bulq/Kyle Katarn/Kyp Durron
10) Shaak Ti/Galen Marek/Kit Fisto/Nomi Sunrider/Saba Sebatyne

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by wolfpack86
With getting plenty of time to think about this, and with new thoughts and people brought to mind, my revised list is as follows...


1) Yoda
2) Luke Skywalker/DE Darth Sidious
3) Darth Tyranus (on Vjun)
4) Mace Windu/Darth Sidious/Anakin Skywalker (aboard invisible hand)
5) Darth Caedus/Darth Tyranus
6) Obi-Wan Kenobi/Darth Bane/Darth Vader (presuit)
7) Exar Kun/Kas'im/Ulic Qel Droma/Darth Maul
8) Darth Revan/General Grievous/Assaj Ventress/Darth Krayt/Darth Vader (suited)
9) Qui-Gon Jinn/Anoon Bondara/Sora Bulq/Kyle Katarn/Kyp Durron
10) Shaak Ti/Galen Marek/Kit Fisto/Nomi Sunrider/Saba Sebatyne

Luke in his prime > DE Sidious (probably)

Luke in his prime > Yoda (probably)

Sidious > Tyranus even when Tyranus is on Vjun, since Yoda was still able to whoop Tyranus and yet the battle between Yoda and Sidious was a virtual stalemate.

Caedus might be above/rivaling Mace Windu...

Darth Bane should be much higher on the list, especially w/his Orbalisks, in which he might surpass Sidious in terms of PURE SABERS

Revan is...unknown, but probably higher on the list.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Luke in his prime > DE Sidious (probably)

Luke in his prime > Yoda (probably)

Sidious > Tyranus even when Tyranus is on Vjun, since Yoda was still able to whoop Tyranus and yet the battle between Yoda and Sidious was a virtual stalemate.

Caedus might be above/rivaling Mace Windu...

Darth Bane should be much higher on the list, especially w/his Orbalisks, in which he might surpass Sidious in terms of PURE SABERS

Revan is...unknown, but probably higher on the list.

Everything that I am about to say is based on lightsaber skills, and only lightsaber skills.


In 11 ABY Luke needed a significant amount of help to defeat Palpatine, I would say it's a fair guess that Luke could have pulled even with him, or slightly surpassed him at some point. As far as Yoda goes, as has been brought out, Yoda did in fact disarm Sidious on the initial dueling pod, proving that he is the superior saberist. And as far as Yoda versus DE Sidous goes, there is absolutely no proof that DE Sidious had become a better saberist (and being as how quickly Yoda disarmed Sidious in their duel, I would give the clear advantage to Yoda). And I believe that Tyranus on Vjun, would have been better than Sidious, the book it self states that even Mace Windu would not have been able to match Tyranus on Vjun, I doubt that Sidious would have had much of a chance either.

As far as Caedus goes, yes I could see moving him up potentially one spot. With Bane I believe that he was the best saberist ever before the golden age, but I just don't believe that he would be better than presuit Vader or Obi at his prime. Lastly with Revan, yes I could see moving him up one spot, whether he should be in 7 or 8 was the most difficult choice for me.

truejedi
Originally posted by wolfpack86
Yes it was him fighting Vastor, I thought it was from Depa's viewpoint, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway the quote is something like this...

But where Vastor's speed is blinding, Mace's was invisible

That was what I thought the quote was. This was hand-to-hand combat, not lightsabers. He was punching Vastor in the nose faster than Vastor could blink.

Red Nemesis
This.

ares834
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This.
WHy would you think that? No where has it ever been stated that Vaapad channels light, only darkness.

mattatom
Originally posted by ares834
WHy would you think that? No where has it ever been stated that Vaapad channels light, only darkness. Okay. Vaapad channels the users Inner Darkness notice the inner bit there. So it's jsut as effective againt a Lightsider and Darksider. UNLESS, the darksider is more powerful than the user at that moment in time then the SCL kicks in and allows the Vaapad user to equal them. *I think.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
Okay. Vaapad channels the users Inner Darkness notice the inner bit there. So it's jsut as effective againt a Lightsider and Darksider. UNLESS, the darksider is more powerful than the user at that moment in time then the SCL kicks in and allows the Vaapad user to equal them. *I think.

So what you're saying is that a Vapaad user will always be superior or equal to a DS user, because if the DS user is weaker...well then they're weaker, but if they're stronger than Vapaad will allow LS user to equal them?

So some random jedi that learned Vapaad would be able to stalemate DE Sidious?

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So what you're saying is that a Vapaad user will always be superior or equal to a DS user, because if the DS user is weaker...well then they're weaker, but if they're stronger than Vapaad will allow LS user to equal them?

So some random jedi that learned Vapaad would be able to stalemate DE Sidious?

Well... no "random" Jedi can learn Vaapad. He/she must be of exceptional quality in order to control Vaapad. Also, learning it isn't sufficient. One must master Vaapad in oder to do so. So in a way... to answer your question... yes.

Apologies for the rushed and sloppy response.

mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So what you're saying is that a Vapaad user will always be superior or equal to a DS user, because if the DS user is weaker...well then they're weaker, but if they're stronger than Vapaad will allow LS user to equal them?

So some random jedi that learned Vapaad would be able to stalemate DE Sidious? No the loop doesn't come into effect if there weaker that's illogical, the loop only comes in if they're stronger. I think Gideon explained all this years ago.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
No the loop doesn't come into effect if there weaker that's illogical, the loop only comes in if they're stronger. I think Gideon explained all this years ago.

So:

Loop comes into effect if DS user is stronger.

So if LS user is weaker, then the loop will make him equal.

If LS user is stronger...then, well, he's stronger, loop isn't needed.

So a Vapaad user will always be either equal to or superior to any DS user?

mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So:

Loop comes into effect if DS user is stronger.

So if LS user is weaker, then the loop will make him equal.

If LS user is stronger...then, well, he's stronger, loop isn't needed.

So a Vapaad user will always be either equal to or superior to any DS user? I did say I might be wrong about this, as long as the Vaapad user can control him/her self. Aka, Mace. I guess that is the case, however I don't know if theres a limit.

ares834
Originally posted by mattatom
Okay. Vaapad channels the users Inner Darkness notice the inner bit there. So it's jsut as effective againt a Lightsider and Darksider. UNLESS, the darksider is more powerful than the user at that moment in time then the SCL kicks in and allows the Vaapad user to equal them. *I think.
Yeah that is what I beleive as well. I thought Red was saying it could loop a Lightsider.

mattatom
Originally posted by ares834
Yeah that is what I beleive as well. I thought Red was saying it could loop a Lightsider. Mhm maybe just a communications error.

ares834
Originally posted by mattatom
I did say I might be wrong about this, as long as the Vaapad user can control him/her self. Aka, Mace. I guess that is the case, however I don't know if theres a limit.
I seem to recall in the RotS novelization that it says that Mace's fight against Palps was beyond Vaapad, and his superconducting loop was pushed to its limit. I don't have the book on me right now so I don't have the quotes, I'll post them up a bit later whn I can find my book.

mattatom
Originally posted by ares834
I seem to recall in the RotS novelization that it says that Mace's fight against Palps was beyond Vaapad, and his superconducting loop was pushed to its limit. I don't have the book on me right now so I don't have the quotes, I'll post them up a bit later whn I can find my book. "You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'" -From the Novel. Maybe it was just the Force of his lightning since Mace was handling himself before that.

wolfpack86
What do you guys think of starting two "official" stickied threads based on force power and saber skills, to give everyone a gauge on each characters abilities? It could include everyone and anyone that uses a lightsaber or the force.

mattatom
Originally posted by wolfpack86
What do you guys think of starting two "official" stickied threads based on force power and saber skills, to give everyone a gauge on each characters abilities? It could include everyone and anyone that uses a lightsaber or the force. That would have to allow for fluctuating power levels and etcetera. Though it would mean that we wouldn't be able to complain about unknowns as much sad

truejedi
Originally posted by wolfpack86
What do you guys think of starting two "official" stickied threads based on force power and saber skills, to give everyone a gauge on each characters abilities? It could include everyone and anyone that uses a lightsaber or the force.
this is kinda like the end of Project Holocron where I'm (still kinda currently) listing every feat of the force, or in combat for each character. Right now, school is kicking my butt, but i'll get back to it eventually. Helping was not forbidden!

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
this is kinda like the end of Project Holocron where I'm (still kinda currently) listing every feat of the force, or in combat for each character. Right now, school is kicking my butt, but i'll get back to it eventually. Helping was not forbidden!


What's Project Holocron? Sounds interesting.

truejedi
i'll bump it. Its in the lit. and expanded universe forum.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by truejedi
i'll bump it. Its in the lit. and expanded universe forum.

Thanks, I checked it out. What I was thinking of however was more of a ranking system. For the lightsaber skills thread for example, you could have a ranking system from 1-20, with a predetermined amount of fact based votes deciding each character's "official" skill rating.

Which forum do you guys think would be best for such a thread?

Slash_KMC
What's up with all this confusion about Vaapad?

See, - represents the Dark Side and + represents the Light Side. The Vaapad user automatically has his own - to use through Vaapad, but when it comes to opponents, he can use this loop against a - guy while he can't use it against a + guy because he doesn't channel the + guy his peace and passive emotions, he does however channel the - guy his rage and fury. Thus, Vaapad is more effective against - than +.

Mace can beat Sidious, but he can't beat Yoda.

mattatom
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
What's up with all this confusion about Vaapad?

See, - represents the Dark Side and + represents the Light Side. The Vaapad user automatically has his own - to use through Vaapad, but when it comes to opponents, he can use this loop against a - guy while he can't use it against a + guy because he doesn't channel the + guy his peace and passive emotions, he does however channel the - guy his rage and fury. Thus, Vaapad is more effective against - than +.

Mace can beat Sidious, but he can't beat Yoda. There was no confusion i fixed it smile

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by wolfpack86
Thanks, I checked it out, what I was thinking of however was more of a ranking system. For the lightsaber skills thread for example, you could have a ranking system from 1-20, with a predetermined amount of fact based votes deciding each character's "official" skill rating.

But doesn't that kinda destroy the idea of creating Versus threads, when you already know what rank every character has.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by mattatom
There was no confusion i fixed it smile

I still want to read Red's new thesis about Vaapad though, as he claims I'm wrong about Vaapad being less effective against lightsiders than darksiders.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
But doesn't that kinda destroy the idea of creating Versus threads, when you already know what rank every character has.


No, debates could still be made in the versus forum, it would just be a "what the community thinks" as a whole thread, so that maybe there wouldn't be quite so many spite/illogical threads. Plus I would think most people would find such a thread quite interesting and informative.

mattatom
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I still want to read Red's new thesis about Vaapad though, as he claims I'm wrong about Vaapad being less effective against lightsiders than darksiders. The only idea I can think of is that he imagines the SCL works on Lightsiders as well which it doesn't. Else I don't have any idea what he means.

truejedi
THis ranking thread would definitly not settle anything, since we would never agree on the rankings. Ever.

So it would just turn into more lists of "the most powerful" in whatever category.

Red Nemesis
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11213760& amp;highlight=Vaapad+Case+1+2+3+loop+forumid%3A6+u
serid%3A108686#post11213760



This is pretty much what's taken as "common knowledge."

Red Nemesis
I plan to dissent.

Slash_KMC
So, can Mace use the superconducting loop to copy his opponents Force Power, when the opponent is a Light Sider?

Lord Lucien
Wouldn't think so. I thought the second half of the loop was the opponent's Darkness reflected.

truejedi
he can use his own inner darkness however.

Red Nemesis
I'm planning on contesting the media of the loop. The idea of power-levels as the determinant for the nature of Vaapad is silly. Does it go by midichlorians? That seems weak. And if not, then how does one quantify superior strength in the Force?

Darth_Thymos
Most of you people are so limited in your knowledge that you forget about the old republic. What about Jedi master Raskta Lsu? Lord Kas'im?
Both were the greatest swordsmen of their time. Alot of people never seem to give credit to them. Kas'im train Bane. Bane killed Raskta and Kas'im. My opinion is one of those 3 are the best? Anyone agree?

Dolos
Now apparently ancient Sith Lords were generally greater swordsmen at the time of Tulak Hord than most Jedi and Sith at the time of the Old Republic series, and Tulak Hord was the best of them. I don't know if many of the Sith of that era were more skilled because they were more prodigiously talented in lightsaber combat like Luke Skywalker, or if they just were simply more thoroughly trained like Kas'im.

NewGuy01
League 1: Lotf/Fotj Luke
League 2: Rots Yoda, DE Sidious, DoE Bane,
League 3: Rots Mace, Rots Sidious, Totj Exar Kun, Kas'im

And the Leagues keep getting bigger, but weaker. Point is, Luke takes this.

TheOneOfMortis
lEaGuE 1: Kas'im, Raskta Lsu, Tulak Hord
LeAgEu 2: Darth Maul, Yoda etc.
....
LeaGUE 27: Obi-Wan.

pencilcrayon
If everyone had the same maximum agility, who would win then? Everyone had different styles and only one of them is ever listed as being ambidextrous? Nick Gillard said

Q99
Originally posted by Dolos
Now apparently ancient Sith Lords were generally greater swordsmen at the time of Tulak Hord than most Jedi and Sith at the time of the Old Republic series, and Tulak Hord was the best of them. I don't know if many of the Sith of that era were more skilled because they were more prodigiously talented in lightsaber combat like Luke Skywalker, or if they just were simply more thoroughly trained like Kas'im.

I'll note that the KotoR era Jedi/Sith had a fairly strong focus on force powers compared to some other eras. Especially if you read the Tails of the Jedi series, you'll see saber combat take something of a back seat, especially in major conflicts.

On the flip side, Kas'im's era, and the Clone Wars, saber combat takes the forefront and force powers are more in the back seat.

It's a pendulum that swings back and forth.


So I'd say Tulak Hord came from an era of the Sith Empire when swordplay was dominant.

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