Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/10/gamer-sticks-bungie-microsoft-with-halo-3-lawsuit/


Gamer, Randy Nunez finds bugs and glitches in Bungie's best selling videogame Halo 3 and decides to take action against this by filing a lawsuit against not only Bungie Studios but Microsoft as well.


Will he win? My guess is no. Is he looking like an idiot? My guess is yes.

if the standards applied to most products were applied to video games, most companies would be exposed to huge lawsuits like this.

its all too common that games don't include or include broken versions of features listed on the package. Let alone crashes.

Originally posted by inimalist
if the standards applied to most products were applied to video games, most companies would be exposed to huge lawsuits like this.

its all too common that games don't include or include broken versions of features listed on the package. Let alone crashes. Yes, especially with PC Games there seems to be idea that you should jsut put the game out and people will buy in and they can start playing it a month or so later when it is actually finished enough to be playable and the first major patch is thrown out

Well if he can prove that he game caused real damage he might have a case.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, especially with PC Games there seems to be idea that you should jsut put the game out and people will buy in and they can start playing it a month or so later when it is actually finished enough to be playable and the first major patch is thrown out

its really lame. God, and the PC stuff is so bad now. Bioshock had huge issues with its anti-piracy shit, making it easier to pirate the game than to purchase it, and making the pirated version more user friendly.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well if he can prove that he game caused real damage he might have a case.

someone should be accountable for their product working or not.

How many other products is it considered "ok" for them to glitch and freeze, especially for $60-80 on a $300 system?

Bungie/Microsoft should take charge of their damaged products but someone trying to sue them over it is just a little drastic

Well Microsoft is already in deep shit over the 360 in Europe to the point where a successful lawsuit could severely hurt them and may even force them to leave the video game market.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Well Microsoft is already in deep shit over the 360 in Europe to the point where a successful lawsuit could severely hurt them and may even force them to leave the video game market. Haven't heard of that tell more.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/10/gamer-sticks-bungie-microsoft-with-halo-3-lawsuit/


Gamer, Randy Nunez finds bugs and glitches in Bungie's best selling videogame Halo 3 and decides to take action against this by filing a lawsuit against not only Bungie Studios but Microsoft as well.


Will he win? My guess is no. Is he looking like an idiot? My guess is yes.

This lawsuit along with the lady from Mc Donalds putting the hot coffee in between her legs are just laughable.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
This lawsuit along with the lady from Mc Donalds putting the hot coffee in between her legs are just laughable.

so, lets say you had a car that, for no apparent reason, just stopped working 1 out of 50 times that you used it.

Do you think it would be laughable for the owner of that car to want their product to work properly?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Haven't heard of that tell more.

Here's what I know. In most countries it is illegal to purposely sell defective products onto the market, hence why Toshiba has been successfully sued by Americans to the tune of several tens of billions of dollars over the years. The established industry standard for "general hardware failure" (bricking) within the first 1.5 years is 3-6%. Now the European Union has an agency that tracks and records product returns and functions as consumer advocates. They went over their statistics and did a study after repeated complaints about the Xbox and the 360 after repeated complaints and came to the conclusion that the General Hardware Failure rate for Xbox and related products is right around 60%. So they decided to file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft to the tune of several billion dollars in addition to an already pending antitrust lawsuit. As far as I know, the Xbox case hasn't come to trial yet.

I've had my NES since 1989, the RF switch went last year and now I use AV cables. Otherwise no repairs. I've had a Genesis 2 since 1993. I've replaced a controller and the RF switch and will probably need to replace the power cable and the RF switch again soon but the unit itself functions fine.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, lets say you had a car that, for no apparent reason, just stopped working 1 out of 50 times that you used it.

Do you think it would be laughable for the owner of that car to want their product to work properly?

That . . . is very a good point.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
This lawsuit along with the lady from Mc Donalds putting the hot coffee in between her legs are just laughable.
That mcdonalds thing was legit imo. The coffee was so hot it could cause serious burns.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That mcdonalds thing was legit imo. The coffee was so hot it could cause serious burns.

That's the point of "hot coffee."

The cup even had a nice warning about it being hot, and Micky D's was still liable for what, like 80%?

That's ridiculous.

The way she burned herself is ridiculous. She sat the cup between her legs and was yanking on the lid.


Yes, I think the US is VERY much over-due for some tort reform.

Mcdonalds coffee was far hotter than the industry average. Regular hot coffee would not have caused the kind of burns theirs did.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, I think the US is VERY much over-due for some tort reform.

Almost all of the outrageous pay outs either get overturned or drastically reduced afterward, the media typically doesn't find that too exciting and it slips through the cracks.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Mcdonalds coffee was far hotter than the industry average. Regular hot coffee would not have caused the kind of burns theirs did.

"Far-hotter" is very much subjective. What is your definition of "far-hotter"?

And, when I make hot chocolate, my water is boiling just mere seconds before I poor it into the mug.


Edit - Saw the second part of your post. Yeah, she sat there for like a minute. Other coffee would have burned her just as bad or close to that degree, as well.

double edit - I just looked up temperature for comercially served coffee. You could be right.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"Far-hotter" is very much subjective. What is your definition of "far-hotter"?

And, when I make hot chocolate, my water is boiling just mere seconds before I poor it into the mug.
Usually most places serve it at like 65 C, mcdonalds served it at 82-88 C.

What, you use boiling water for hot chocolate? Psh, pure milk is needed to truly get the rich creaminess desired.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Usually most places serve it at like 65 C, mcdonalds served it at 82-88 C.

I thought it was closer to 170 F for commericailly served coffee.

Micky D's was like 180/190.

That's (ugh....)

76 degree celsius for normal comercial coffee and 87 degrees celsius for McDonald's coffee.

However, what I was reading, the 10 degree difference is the difference between 3rd degree burns and first degree burns as the drop in temperature reduces burns, ove a unit of time, exponentially down to 155 degrees F/68C. (It took a while to type this post out as the math took a while.)


Originally posted by King Kandy
What, you use boiling water for hot chocolate? Psh, pure milk is needed to truly get the rich creaminess desired.



Touche.






What I was talking about is the absurd stupidness and hyperbole of journalism like this, being a cause of the stupid lawsuits and the need for tort reform:



http://www.vanfirm.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm

"Worst kind" is factually incorrect. Forth degree is the worst.

"Hyper-Heated" at the very least is hyperbole.

Why are we suddenly talking about beverages while this thread is about a company getting sued for having a game with bugs and glitches?

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Why are we suddenly talking about beverages while this thread is about a company getting sued for having a game with bugs and glitches?


Tort Reform, i.e, the underlying topic of the thread.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, lets say you had a car that, for no apparent reason, just stopped working 1 out of 50 times that you used it.

Do you think it would be laughable for the owner of that car to want their product to work properly?

Anything that comes with a warranty is bound to have problems at some time. Some do it sooner than others.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Anything that comes with a warranty is bound to have problems at some time. Some do it sooner than others.

I agree with inimalist's point, so I didn't want to argue it.

But, if I were to argue against inimalist, I'd say that he's comparing apples to oranges.


Cars are much more expensive and have thousands of legal related items that have to be met for safety.

Cars dying 1 out of 50 times could endanger lives.

Simply turning the car off and turning it back on would be the same exact solution as the game locking up.

Cars glitch, too...even the software glitches.


It would have to be proven that the faulty game caused harm or had the potential to cause harm.

It's hard to pin a lawsuit on something such as entertainment not working a small fraction of the time. (Not referring to the 360 failures..just the game, which the lawsuit is about.)

I'm not arguing. I'm just posting the obvious...whether he agree or not is his problem.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Anything that comes with a warranty is bound to have problems at some time. Some do it sooner than others.

Since I made that post, I've spent a couple of hours playing Saints Row 2 on my 360. Love the game, really.

Did the dealer missions for most of that time, and due to terrible pathing AI, lost repeatedly (though not technically a glitch...). In 2 hours, the game has frozen twice.

That standard of quality is far below that of any industry, and it is only because the products are being produced for a niche market that is willing to forgive such things that it isn't a real issue.

Lair was shipped as a broken game.

This isn't a matter of ware and tare, but rather of just substandard products being sold as complete because of deadlines and such.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I'm not arguing. I'm just posting the obvious...whether he agree or not is his problem.

A warranty doesn't cover a company if they produce a defective product

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with inimalist's point, so I didn't want to argue it.

But, if I were to argue against inimalist, I'd say that he's comparing apples to oranges.


Cars are much more expensive and have thousands of legal related items that have to be met for safety.

Cars dying 1 out of 50 times could endanger lives.

Simply turning the car off and turning it back on would be the same exact solution as the game locking up.

Cars glitch, too...even the software glitches.


It would have to be proven that the faulty game caused harm or had the potential to cause harm.

It's hard to pin a lawsuit on something such as entertainment not working a small fraction of the time. (Not referring to the 360 failures..just the game, which the lawsuit is about.)

ok, in what other industry is a failure rate of 1 in 50 uses considered acceptable?

mind, I'd say, and anyone who plays games knows, it is far more often than 1 in 50 uses that a 360 or PS3 will freeze or crash.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, in what other industry is a failure rate of 1 in 50 uses considered acceptable?

Electronics. 1 in 50 failure rate is good.

Originally posted by inimalist
mind, I'd say, and anyone who plays games knows, it is far more often than 1 in 50 uses that a 360 or PS3 will freeze or crash.

My PS3 locked up once, and it was due to the Blu-Ray movie software sucking major balls, rather than the PS3.

My 360 has locked up on me, in various forms, about 4 times.


They are both below the 1 in 50 failure rate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Electronics. 1 in 50 failure rate is good.

no it isn't. Its not 1 in 50 items produced don't work, but that a product that is considered "working" will fail 1 in 50 times.

when was the last time you turned on your microwave and it just didn't work? or glitched out?

Originally posted by dadudemon
My PS3 locked up once, and it was due to the Blu-Ray movie software sucking major balls, rather than the PS3.

My 360 has locked up on me, in various forms, about 4 times.

They are both below the 1 in 50 failure rate.

ok

Originally posted by inimalist
no it isn't. Its not 1 in 50 items produced don't work, but that a product that is considered "working" will fail 1 in 50 times.

Yes, yes it is.

We are talking about electronics and software.

Software is a whole other ball game. An acceptable failure rate is almost arbitrary, especially when it can be patched.

For electronics, which is what I was referring to, 2% failure rate is good over 3 year period.


See the attachment below.

Originally posted by inimalist
when was the last time you turned on your microwave and it just didn't work? or glitched out?



ok

Funny you should say that. About 3 times. 2 of the times, the microwave was completely dead and it had to be replaced. The other time, it just took an unplugging and plugging back in. (2 fails were at work, the other at home.)

However, that's not what is happening with the game. It is the glitches and system lock-ups. So, that'd be like the MW dying mid nuke. lol

Here's the image.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, yes it is.

We are talking about electronics and software.

Software is a whole other ball game. An acceptable failure rate is almost arbitrary, especially when it can be patched.

For electronics, which is what I was referring to, 2% failure rate is good over 3 year period.


See the attachment below.

ok, but my point is that people consider games to be "working" even though they are full of glitches and such. I'd argue that games are less stable than most other software too.

I get what you mean with electronics, but it isn't the same. I'm not talking about a game being unusable because of a defect, but rather that the finished product produces defective experiences, though these are considered part of a working product, a standard not seen in many other industries.

That issues can be patched is no excuse for it to be released prematurely.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Funny you should say that. About 3 times. 2 of the times, the microwave was completely dead and it had to be replaced. The other time, it just took an unplugging and plugging back in. (2 fails were at work, the other at home.)

However, that's not what is happening with the game. It is the glitches and system lock-ups. So, that'd be like the MW dying mid nuke. lol

so you have garbage microwaves but invincible systems

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but my point is that people consider games to be "working" even though they are full of glitches and such. I'd argue that games are less stable than most other software too.

Depends on your measure of stability. If you measure by the number of bytes being processed from the software, as compared to intended/desired operation, many games are actually some of the most stable software out there. Since MTBF for software is a measure of use, bytes per unit of time could very well be a good measure of "quality." However, I am not aware of anyone who measures that way as they just measure failures per unit time, not per unit byte per unit time.

But, yes, I would say that games have quite a few bugs/glitches to them. Some of the best and worst software comes from game developers.

Originally posted by inimalist
I get what you mean with electronics, but it isn't the same.

I agree. It's an apples to oranges comparison. I only know of a couple of different places where software developers can get certified...such as ISO. Meaning, it doesn't seem like the same standard is applied to software as say, Energy Star compliant consumer electronics, cars, etc.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm not talking about a game being unusable because of a defect, but rather that the finished product produces defective experiences, though these are considered part of a working product, a standard not seen in many other industries.

No, I agree. I just think the end user doesn't deserve anything beyond the cost of the game.

Originally posted by inimalist
That issues can be patched is no excuse for it to be released prematurely.

Actually....


How many gamers do you know say stuff similar to, "I wish they would just release it now instead of continuing to push the release data back." Examples: Mass Effect, Mag.



Originally posted by inimalist
Sure,



so you have garbage microwaves but invincible systems

I wouldn't call failures from both my PS3 and Xbox 360, invincible.

don't know if this suit has any merit. It's like, you have to prove that the game makes a system that's already known as an overpriced, unreliable piece of shit the world freeze or break down. It's a real chicken and egg argument.

Serves the kid right, only tools and 12 year olds play Halo.

Real men play Call of Duty

Originally posted by KidRock
Serves the kid right, only tools and 12 year olds play Halo.

Real men play Call of Duty The price is wrong, bob.

I'm with the chap on this one.

Halo 3 sucked anyways.
Would've had a refund if I had a chance.

Originally posted by inimalist

That issues can be patched is no excuse for it to be released prematurely.


Unless they don't realize that a particular bug or glitch exists until after it goes into wide release. Something like that has a much better chance of popping up when there's a million people playing (and thus a million chances) than a hundred people playing and testing it out.

Also, even though that discussion was on the last page, I really hate when people bring up the McD's coffee lawsuit as an example of something frivolous, because all that does is make you look ignorant. Spend 10 seconds googling it first.

Originally posted by Peach
Unless they don't realize that a particular bug or glitch exists until after it goes into wide release. Something like that has a much better chance of popping up when there's a million people playing (and thus a million chances) than a hundred people playing and testing it out.

Also, even though that discussion was on the last page, I really hate when people bring up the McD's coffee lawsuit as an example of something frivolous, because all that does is make you look ignorant. Spend 10 seconds googling it first.

To the coffe thing: I agree that McDonalds and such places should be careful with the way their coffee is prepared, however, a customer needs to be careful when they purchase a hot product. Looking at the facts, I can't say this lawsuit was frivolus, but I also can't say I sympathise with the woman either. Personally, looking at those facts, and the fact that the woman was holding it between her legs, and manipulating the top (which, logic would dictate, greatly raises the chance of it spilling out) I would have fined McDonalds in the 1 million dollar range. 3rd degree burns are serious, and the fact that McDonalds knew that their coffee was 20 degrees hotter than the industry standard, and did nothing to change it is not right. But I can't entirely sympathise with people who can't seem to grasp the concept that trying to pull a top off of a hot liquid in their lap is probably going to get them burned.

As for the video game thing: There is a point that the industry needs to try not putting out buggy software (or hardware) but, like peach said, sometimes bugs aren't caught in production due to the vastly fewer ammounts of people playing the games. Also, the industry has to way more than just how to find every bug and fix it, the main problem being us, the never-satisfied consumer. When a company tries to fix all the gliches and bugs in their game, thus causing the release date to be pushed back several times, we complain that it is not getting out fast enough. However, when a company gets it out within the consumer's accepted time limit, we complain about it being gliched up. The game companies just can't win. There are some games, however, that are unacceptably gliched, such as Mass Effect, but Halo 3 really isn't one of them.

Actually, I ammend my coffee statement. I would have ordered that her medical bills be payed by McDonalds, and only her medical bills. No more no less. That way, McDonalds has to take responsibility for their neglectful preparation of the coffee, but the woman isn't rewarded for her stupidity.

Originally posted by inimalist
Since I made that post, I've spent a couple of hours playing Saints Row 2 on my 360. Love the game, really.

Did the dealer missions for most of that time, and due to terrible pathing AI, lost repeatedly (though not technically a glitch...). In 2 hours, the game has frozen twice.

That standard of quality is far below that of any industry, and it is only because the products are being produced for a niche market that is willing to forgive such things that it isn't a real issue.

Lair was shipped as a broken game.

This isn't a matter of ware and tare, but rather of just substandard products being sold as complete because of deadlines and such.

Ah! So you're a gamer. Good! Then this leads me to assume that you read reviews for the games. Usually early reviews will tell you if the game have glitches or not. If it does and you still buy the game...well, you're on your Charlie. I'm one of those gamers that takes a chance, and pre-orders, and then stand in line till midnight to buy the game. If it's glitchy...it is...get the patch.


Originally posted by inimalist

A warranty doesn't cover a company if they produce a defective product

That's when you have recalls. Now, Daudemons apples and oranges earlier comment comes into play. I've never heard of a video game recall...I don't think there even was one...if there was...oh, well...there was and no biggie.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
That's when you have recalls. Now, Daudemons apples and oranges earlier comment comes into play. I've never heard of a video game recall...I don't think there even was one...if there was...oh, well...there was and no biggie.

If there was, it probably would have had more to do with content than glitches or bugs... did the early versions of GTA: San Andreas get recalled due to the whole sex thing?

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
If there was, it probably would have had more to do with content than glitches or bugs... did the early versions of GTA: San Andreas get recalled due to the whole sex thing?

Good question...I don't remember to be honest. I do recall hearing some versions of GTA SA with the sex scene did arrive in Europe even after it was blown out of proportion here in the states.

hmm

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Good question...I don't remember to be honest. I do recall hearing some versions of GTA SA with the sex scene did arrive in Europe even after it was blown out of proportion here in the states.

hmm

Yea, I'm not going to pretend to know all the details. I just know what the controversy was. It was GTA, and I've never been a big fan of that series (I'd enjoy them for about five minutes then get bored), and frankly, I didn't care, so I didn't really look into it that much.

I'm actually a fan of GTA (not a fanboy) series and do recall parts of the controversy from years back. You still brought a very good point...if a game was released with sexual adult content PRIOR to a rating, then I could see a massive recall happening.

Hmm...

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Ah! So you're a gamer. Good! Then this leads me to assume that you read reviews for the games. Usually early reviews will tell you if the game have glitches or not. If it does and you still buy the game...well, you're on your Charlie. I'm one of those gamers that takes a chance, and pre-orders, and then stand in line till midnight to buy the game. If it's glitchy...it is...get the patch.

ok, name another industry that this type of thing is acceptable in

dude, just because you like something doesn't mean you put your fingers in your ears and defend it

EDIT: also, I'm not a gamer. I'm interested in the industry and follow releases, but in no way to I identify as such. It would be as ridiculous as defining myself as a "sporter" or other such things. Identity politics with hobbies, lololol

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
That's when you have recalls. Now, Daudemons apples and oranges earlier comment comes into play. I've never heard of a video game recall...I don't think there even was one...if there was...oh, well...there was and no biggie.

san andreas was recalled

EDIT: the origional san andreas disc contained a mini-game where you had sex with your girlfriends. The game was never finished and was disabled in final product, however was still in the code.

Game modders enabled the code and released it, along with community created nude skins, as the "Hot Coffee" mod. The recall occured to prevent Rockstar from being legally liable for the content on the disc, even though users had to break theur EULA to access or use it.

Originally posted by inimalist

san andreas was recalled

PS3's 'LittleBigPlanet' was recalled, due to the cries/rants of Muslim communities. There are others. It's since been released, once the "offense" was removed.

huh, didn't know that one

Originally posted by inimalist
huh, didn't know that one

It's some online social game filled with music; one of the songs has a line or two from the Qu'ran; the Islamites didn't like it, so they cried to Sony.

Not sure why they didn't pursue the artist and music distribution company.

Originally posted by Robtard
PS3's 'LittleBigPlanet' was recalled, due to the cries/rants of Muslim communities. There are others. It's since been released, once the "offense" was removed.

Same thing happened to Ocarina of Time. The blood was censored too.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Ah! So you're a gamer. Good! Then this leads me to assume that you read reviews for the games. Usually early reviews will tell you if the game have glitches or not. If it does and you still buy the game...well, you're on your Charlie.

His point is that every other industry that makes a product has standards they are required to live up to. There's no good reason that the video game industry should be any different.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
His point is that every other industry that makes a product has standards they are required to live up to. There's no good reason that the video game industry should be any different.

Not to mention, said glitches/problems would have to be labeled on the box, to be a valid warning to the consumer.

Originally posted by Robtard
It's some online social game filled with music; one of the songs has a line or two from the Qu'ran; the Islamites didn't like it, so they cried to Sony.

Not sure why they didn't pursue the artist and music distribution company.

weird. I've played some little big planet... How do they protect themselves against user created offensive stuff, like what happened in Hot Coffee?

(I have no idea how their copyright stuff works, especially given that City of Heroes was liable for the ability of consumers to create marvel characters with their character generator)

I'm sure the music distribution company and the artist don't have pockets like Sony

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Same thing happened to Ocarina of Time. The blood was censored too.

muslims censored OoT?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There's no good reason that the video game industry should be any different.

the market doesn't demand it?

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, name another industry that this type of thing is acceptable in

dude, just because you like something doesn't mean you put your fingers in your ears and defend it





I would go with Comic Book Industry.

You're neither a gamer but play the video games. K...we'll leave it then that you don't read reviews.

I got a good idea where you put your fingers. So thank you for assuming.

Originally posted by inimalist


san andreas was recalled

EDIT: the origional san andreas disc contained a mini-game where you had sex with your girlfriends. The game was never finished and was disabled in final product, however was still in the code.

Game modders enabled the code and released it, along with community created nude skins, as the "Hot Coffee" mod. The recall occured to prevent Rockstar from being legally liable for the content on the disc, even though users had to break theur EULA to access or use it.

I gotta stop wikipedia more often than been honest.

Double post.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
His point is that every other industry that makes a product has standards they are required to live up to. There's no good reason that the video game industry should be any different.

I think there is life cycle in software involved. But again, I will point out that there are such things as reviews of products that might warn of you of glitches. I believe Adam Sessler once said that all games have glitches and they're expected to happen.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I would go with Comic Book Industry.


What?



I think he has me on ignore, please someone inquire as to this.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I would go with Comic Book Industry.

You're neither a gamer but play the video games. K...we'll leave it then that you don't read reviews.

I got a good idea where you put your fingers. So thank you for assuming.



I gotta stop wikipedia more often than been honest.

yeah, that's true. the comic book industry loves to put out a substandard product and still charge you full price.

Originally posted by -Pr-
yeah, that's true. the comic book industry loves to put out a substandard product and still charge you full price.

Remember Countdown?

However, now that I think of it...there is a flip side. You can buy comics from the .50 cent pile....you just have to wait months for it. lulz.

Originally posted by -Pr-
yeah, that's true. the comic book industry loves to put out a substandard product and still charge you full price.

That's a totally subjective thing though.

Meaning, they can't make sure that you like the story, and really, if you by a story by some hack author, I'd say you yourself are to blame. Now if the whole lettering is off and there are misprints etc. then you have a point (that doesn't happen that often though) and I have multiple times actually received a reprint in my subscriptions.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's a totally subjective thing though.

Meaning, they can't make sure that you like the story, and really, if you by a story by some hack author, I'd say you yourself are to blame. Now if the whole lettering is off and there are misprints etc. then you have a point (that doesn't happen that often though) and I have multiple times actually received a reprint in my subscriptions.

i can't stand in the comic store and read the issue cover to cover, though.

and its not entirely subjective when certain writers go out of their way to ignore continuity or established personality traits just so they can have it the way they want it.

Subjective? Man...I'm glad I got those guys on ignore...now they're just looking for anything to argue.

Well, done my contribution for this thread. Tah-tah!

Originally posted by -Pr-
i can't stand in the comic store and read the issue cover to cover, though.


I don't know what that has to do with anything, but that is true. Though that's similar with most things somewhat, no?

Originally posted by -Pr-
and its not entirely subjective when certain writers go out of their way to ignore continuity or established personality traits just so they can have it the way they want it.


Well, I personally prefer if they forget about elaborate and often contradicting continuity as long as they abandon it for an actual good story.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Subjective? Man...I'm glad I got those guys on ignore...now they're just looking for anything to argue.

Well, done my contribution for this thread. Tah-tah! It is subjective, though, isn't it?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't know what that has to do with anything, but that is true. Though that's similar with most things somewhat, no?




Well, I personally prefer if they forget about elaborate and often contradicting continuity as long as they abandon it for an actual good story.

with a car, you can test drive. with games, even, you can sometimes play a demo. there are online previews to comics, but it's not the same thing imo.

i just don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive. and a lot of the time, the stories are shit.

Originally posted by -Pr-
with a car, you can test drive. with games, even, you can sometimes play a demo. there are online previews to comics, but it's not the same thing imo.

i just don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive. and a lot of the time, the stories are shit.

Why do you think it is not the same thing? I mean you can read like what, 5-6 pages in the comic store? That should give you a pretty good idea of whether it's going to be good. I think the issue is more that many comic buyers are collectors as much as readers, so they don't really have a choice.


Again it's subjective, the things I think are shit in many mainstream comics are things that others greatly enjoy..

Originally posted by Bardock42
Why do you think it is not the same thing? I mean you can read like what, 5-6 pages in the comic store? That should give you a pretty good idea of whether it's going to be good. I think the issue is more that many comic buyers are collectors as much as readers, so they don't really have a choice.


Again it's subjective, the things I think are shit in many mainstream comics are things that others greatly enjoy..

yes, you could read it, but again, as you said, a lot of people are collectors. if they're going to be laying down a lot of money every week, they should be getting a quality product.

i don't agree. some things are universally acclaimed, while some are universally panned. not everything is subjective imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
yes, you could read it, but again, as you said, a lot of people are collectors. if they're going to be laying down a lot of money every week, they should be getting a quality product.

i don't agree. some things are universally acclaimed, while some are universally panned. not everything is subjective imo.

It's very hard to please them all, I'd say. And the target of many of the comics are adolescent boys, I think, and many of those like incredibly stupid macho shit....while older collecters...won't stop buying anyways.


What things would that be?

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's very hard to please them all, I'd say. And the target of many of the comics are adolescent boys, I think, and many of those like incredibly stupid macho shit....while older collecters...won't stop buying anyways.


What things would that be?

which is the problem. the market aims more towards the teens while ignoring the adults who grew up reading said comics. is it not good business sense to appeal to all the markets you possibly can? hell, both dc and marvel have been trying to get young children and girls to read their comics recently.

comic books specifically. some series will be universally lauded while others are universally hated except by the tiniest of minorities.

Originally posted by -Pr-
which is the problem. the market aims more towards the teens while ignoring the adults who grew up reading said comics. is it not good business sense to appeal to all the markets you possibly can? hell, both dc and marvel have been trying to get young children and girls to read their comics recently.

They can try, but do you think there are stories that please every type of reader? Perhaps some tastes are just incompatible.

Originally posted by -Pr-
comic books specifically. some series will be universally lauded while others are universally hated except by the tiniest of minorities.

I meant specific examples. And what are you referring to specifically, critics, commercial success, cult following, internet vibe...?

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I would go with Comic Book Industry.

so comic books are known to stop working half way through? or are known to be incomplete upon their release, expecting patches later?

I'm not saying games are BAD, I'm saying the product doesn't work the way it is being advertised and fails at a rate unheard of in any industry.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
You're neither a gamer but play the video games. K...we'll leave it then that you don't read reviews.

If you want my "gamer" credentials, I frequently read IGN, I subscribe to the Three Red Lights, Game Scoop, the 1up and Joystiq podcasts for news and reviews, I used to get Beyond! but didn't really like the style, now and then with the PC gamer and Maximum PC. I tried the official XBox one, but didn't really like it, not enough sort of industry commentary. I'll be honest, I've fallen off the wagon a bit now that I'm back in school, but I listen as often as possible.

However, my best "street cred" would be the GameThoery podcast, that talks in a meta way about the game industry and the art of game design as a whole.

so, yes, I read reviews. Like I said, I'm very interested in the industry. However, I think its a little childish to define oneself by what they like to do in their spare time.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I gotta stop wikipedia more often than been honest.

ha, again, didn't read it on wikipedia, but followed the news as it was released on gamepolitics.com some years ago.

I thought all real 1337 gamers read gamepolitics?

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I got a good idea where you put your fingers. So thank you for assuming.

ask your mom if the swelling has gone down. She is a classy lady

EDIT: oh, and just one last little bit of "gamer" trivia, the argument I'm making, right now, comes DIRECTLY from penny arcade when Tyco was talking about a version of Tiger Woods.

Originally posted by Bardock42
They can try, but do you think there are stories that please every type of reader? Perhaps some tastes are just incompatible.



I meant specific examples. And what are you referring to specifically, critics, commercial success, cult following, internet vibe...?

i'm not saying that you can please everyone with one story, but most major series have at least two or three books. like x-men for example. if one book is written for the 12 year olds who want to be wolverine, then why cant the other book be written for the more mature reader? some comics do it, and have done it well. they just dont seem to bother anymore, and yet still want our money.

critical acclaim, internet fame, positive reviews from pretty much everyone, etc.

Examples of comics that almost nobody hated: The Sinestro Corps War, Annihilation.

Comics that a lot of people hated: Wolverine Origins used to get a lot of flack in the Comic Vs Section.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm not saying that you can please everyone with one story, but most major series have at least two or three books. like x-men for example. if one book is written for the 12 year olds who want to be wolverine, then why cant the other book be written for the more mature reader? some comics do it, and have done it well. they just dont seem to bother anymore, and yet still want our money.

critical acclaim, internet fame, positive reviews from pretty much everyone, etc.

Examples of comics that almost nobody hated: The Sinestro Corps War, Annihilation.

Comics that a lot of people hated: Wolverine Origins used to get a lot of flack in the Comic Vs Section.

The question is whether being hated or loved (the way you see it) had any influence on the commercial success.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The question is whether being hated or loved (the way you see it) had any influence on the commercial success.

rarely. it's usually the books that are widely acclaimed that don't actually get the sales that they should.

Originally posted by -Pr-
rarely. it's usually the books that are widely acclaimed that don't actually get the sales that they should.

Girls

Originally posted by -Pr-
rarely. it's usually the books that are widely acclaimed that don't actually get the sales that they should. That's exactly what I mean. A majority of comic book readers doesn't actually want a deep or intriguingly artistic story, meaning that if they bought an X-Men comic that was with (what I feel as) merit they would feel how you feel now.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's exactly what I mean. A majority of comic book readers doesn't actually want a deep or intriguingly artistic story, meaning that if they bought an X-Men comic that was with (what I feel as) merit they would feel how you feel now.



Originally posted by Bardock42
That's exactly what I mean. A majority of comic book readers doesn't actually want a deep or intriguingly artistic story, meaning that if they bought an X-Men comic that was with (what I feel as) merit they would feel how you feel now.

my issue is that it's been shown to be possible to write good comics while still catering to the lowest common demoninator. companies forget this.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
This lawsuit along with the lady from Mc Donalds putting the hot coffee in between her legs are just laughable.



BTW is this loser with no life suing over a glitch or lag?

Originally posted by -Pr-
my issue is that it's been shown to be possible to write good comics while still catering to the lowest common demoninator. companies forget this.

No they don't, it just costs more to make those sorts of comics and they're a bigger risk. Comics is a nearly margin business, similar to publishing books, and smart people just aren't an economically viable target for entertainment.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No they don't, it just costs more to make those sorts of comics and they're a bigger risk. Comics is a nearly margin business, similar to publishing books, and smart people just aren't an economically viable target for entertainment.

i don't see how it costs any more to make it. how are they a bigger risk? a comic that still attracts the 12 year old kid is going to make a lot of money.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't see how it costs any more to make it. how are they a bigger risk? a comic that still attracts the 12 year old kid is going to make a lot of money.

Apply this to music today and you should understand everyone's point.

Originally posted by chithappens
Apply this to music today and you should understand everyone's point.

but music and comics aren't the same thing.

Originally posted by -Pr-
but music and comics aren't the same thing.

so, which comics do you think receive both critical and commercial success?

What is the intellectual best-seller? What is the comic version of Thom York or Beck?

Originally posted by inimalist
so, which comics do you think receive both critical and commercial success?

What is the intellectual best-seller? What is the comic version of Thom York or Beck?

comics like sinestro corps war, astonishing x-men and so on, are prime examples of comics that can be appreciated by any part of the audience. there is the talent in the industry to make comics that appeal to both audiences. my issue is that they don't do it moreso when they have the resources.

Originally posted by -Pr-
but music and comics aren't the same thing.



I'm sorry it's so difficult to compare and contrast.

And people are saying we don't need more money in education...

Originally posted by chithappens


I'm sorry it's so difficult to compare and contrast.

And people are saying we don't need more money in education...

comics are a more flexible media than music. one issue of a comic can have several different themes and moods, while its very rare that a song can do the same thing.

my education was just fine, thanks.

Originally posted by Peach
Also, even though that discussion was on the last page, I really hate when people bring up the McD's coffee lawsuit as an example of something frivolous, because all that does is make you look ignorant. Spend 10 seconds googling it first.

I take issue with this statement, simply because I think people who think the case is NOT frivelous, are ignorant.


The old hag sat in that shit for 60 damn seconds. 60.



WTH is wrong with her? Why did she open it up, in a car, with the cup between her legs? If she's that much of an old person, don't you think she should ask for help.



IMO, McDonald's when about and beyond when they offered to cover the costs of her medical bills. 80/20 fault....yeah right. It was more 99/1, with the woman being mostly at fault.
Other than making hot coffee......hot......what did McDonald's do wrong? They even had the necessary warning on the label that the damn coffee was hot.



Hot coffee, hot schmoffee. That case and your attitude are prime examples of why we need tort reform.



Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Actually, I ammend my coffee statement. I would have ordered that her medical bills be payed by McDonalds, and only her medical bills. No more no less. That way, McDonalds has to take responsibility for their neglectful preparation of the coffee, but the woman isn't rewarded for her stupidity.


Well said, sir. Well said. This, I can agree with. It was proven that they made their hot coffee, hotter than normal. However, they had the necessary warning label. She was just being a rather idiotic old lady, atm. I don't understand why it had to be anyone else's fault but her own. Micky D's offer to pay the medical bills was nice....but it took the threat of a lawsuit, no doubt. Personally, I wouldn't have sued...I don't know how me being a dumbass would be anyone's fault but my own.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Slightly tangential of you when we were literally talking about a 1/50 failure rate for electronics. Maybe you quoted the wrong section?

No, actually that's my point. You were talking about failure rate of a batch of electronics, which as inimalist tried to point out to you and you disregarded is not the same thing at all to what he was referring to.

Originally posted by -Pr-
but music and comics aren't the same thing. That is true, I think however that as an analogy music is closer related to comics than comics to video games, especially in that aspect.

Originally posted by -Pr-
comics like sinestro corps war, astonishing x-men and so on, are prime examples of comics that can be appreciated by any part of the audience. there is the talent in the industry to make comics that appeal to both audiences. my issue is that they don't do it moreso when they have the resources.

fair enough, we just have different ideas about what makes a good adult comic.

I'm talking stuff like "Nightly News" or "Spider-man: Reign", but that might just be taste.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Slightly tangential of you when we were literally talking about a 1/50 failure rate for electronics. Maybe you quoted the wrong section?

no man, Bards is right. I might have used the wrong expression or something, but I was never talking about the overall failure rate of a line of products.

Originally posted by -Pr-
comics are a more flexible media than music. one issue of a comic can have several different themes and moods, while its very rare that a song can do the same thing.

my education was just fine, thanks.

+_+ ... frusty

Yes comics have more flexibility in media because It comes down to money and greed.

No one gives a shit about comics because it deosnt make money. Music, Games and Movies are the biggest money makes for media. This is why we wont see for a long time Marvel/DC trying to take someone to court for piracy over comics. But they will charge a single mother for Dling 24 songs 2 Million or 80000 per song and possible jail time.

Comics and the other media are different.

That poofter who is trying to sue MS/Bungie saw a window of opportunity to make millions and is going with it. Just like that idiot Woman who burnt herself on coffee.

Originally posted by The Nuul


BTW is this loser with no life suing over a glitch or lag?

That's the road he wants to take. Trust me when he get his ass on XBL everyone is gonna gun him down.

hehehe....

Also he is not talking about the consoles HW, he is talking about in game with H3.

"Our biggest issue with the game, of course, is that it never lets us win online".

No one should be taking sides with this guy from KMC unless you know him.

You dont know if he has compatible ISP, Networking EQ, is he doing a ICS which is not supported by MS. Did he try and exchange the game? did he try his game on a different console, networking EQ and ISP that are compatible?

There are many factors that can cause the game to "Glitch" or lag, many people cannot tell the difference.


How old is this guy? if hes 20+ he should have a life and better things to do, even as a teen he should have better things to do.

This guy is right.

Shagittarius
Shagittarius @ Sep 10th 2009 2:01PM

"If they actually win this would be really bad for videogames.

Imagine companies having to be sure they don't have any bugs or they will be sued.

Bad new especially for smaller developers".


They wont let this idiot to win the case.

And besides.....FPS sucks on consoles, PC is the way to go.

man, its amazing how much people internalize video games...

Originally posted by inimalist
man, its amazing how much people internalize video games...

Go on... I'm not sure why it's surprising.

Now something like Twitter where someone is just posting what they did for the day and someone "follows" it, now that disturbs me...

Originally posted by chithappens
Go on... I'm not sure why it's surprising.

Now something like Twitter where someone is just posting what they did for the day and someone "follows" it, now that disturbs me...

lol, i didn't say it was as bad as twitter

its an interesting situation though. I guess I'm not surprised that people are rabidly defending games, just how much it seems "gaming" means to the core of some people. Like its an identity issue, as if there is a "gamer".

I guess calling someone an idiot for a lawsuit sort of goes with the territory, and I'm doing a poor job explaining myself, just seems that the reaction isn't quite in proportion.

Like, being called out for my "gamer credentials" for saying that glitches are a negative part of the industry... It seems really knee jerk, you know, like they are just looking for a reason to be dismissive rather than considering another point of view. That the argument has been about everything BUT the game industry and quality issues seems telling of this too.

Originally posted by inimalist


I guess calling someone an idiot for a lawsuit sort of goes with the territory, and I'm doing a poor job explaining myself, just seems that the reaction isn't quite in proportion.



You've explained yourself clearly, the video-game industry should be held up the the standards of others, as you mentioned, if people buy a car and it's a lemon (has glitches), people demand to be compensated and the car industry is held up to fix those errors, or lawsuits ensue.

It's as you said, it's people who play video-games to the point where they see it as a defining element (ie calling themselves gamers), knee-jerking because they feel this will somehow ruin their little bubble. It's all very odd, this "gamer" thing.

Real people have real issues and things to do, not some moron trying to make millions off of suing over a video game.

Originally posted by Robtard
You've explained yourself clearly, the video-game industry should be held up the the standards of others, like you said, if people buy a car and it's a lemon (has glitches), people demand to be compensated and the car industry is held up to fix those errors, or lawsuits ensue.

It's as you said, it's people who play video-games to the point where they see it as a defining element (ie calling themselves gamers), knee-jerking because they feel this will somehow ruin their little bubble.

god, where are you in my seminar classes...

Originally posted by The Nuul
Real people have real issues and things to do, not some moron trying to make millions off of suing over a video game.

so you don't think Microsoft has the obligation to create a finished and working product when they make a game?

Originally posted by inimalist
god, where are you in my seminar classes...



What's even more strange with those people, this lawsuit won't cause any harm to the gaming industry, if anything, it will ensure that companies like Microsoft spend a little extra time beta-testing and the final products will be of a higher standard.

Though I'm skeptical of that, as I see game companies in the future just putting warning labels on games "may contain errors", as a chep and easy fix.

Originally posted by Robtard
What's even more strange with those people, this lawsuit won't cause any harm to the gaming industry, if anything, it will ensure that companies like Microsoft spend a little extra time beta-testing and the final products will be of a higher standard.

like, I'm not even sure about the lawsuit, or at least, don't think Microsoft deserves to foot the bill for industry practice.

I'd love to see companies spend more times on games, and further, spend more time making the mechanics of the game work properly rather than making it look good and flashy, though the later sells more (same reason gameplay footage is rarely seen on TV comercials)

Originally posted by Robtard
Though I'm skeptical of that, as I see game companies in the future just putting warning labels on games "may contain errors", as a chep and easy fix.

but, in some cases that might be all that is possible. I think there might be a valid point that mega ambitious games like Fallout 3 would have been scaled back to accomidate these things. Sure, maybe less enemies would pop through walls and the rendering wouldn't mess up (or hell, those ant colonies might have been playable), but a lot of what sold that game was its immense vision. I wouldn't want people to think all they could do is what has been done, for fear it couldn't be executed to some court approved level of functionality.

Well, there is the issue that it's pretty much impossible to create a game where there are no bugs at all.

There are so many fine strands of code that there will always be bugs in there somewhere or another, and it kind of becomes a subjective experience because some people (like the gamer who is suing) seems to have bad luck and happens to encounter them all, while other gamers (like me) never encountered a single one while playing the same game.

I mean, if there's one thing Bungie is known for, it's polish and fine tuning. So if Bungie doesn't meet a high enough standard then I'm not sure there is a standard that can be met that is at all reasonable, unless you want games to get internally tested for several years before being released. In which case, we'd be getting Halo 2 in about six months from now.

There's also the fact that with nearly all gamers having a connection to the internet developers can now retroactively fix their games via patches on consoles, and they do. This is something that most other products being mentioned in this thread (cars, so on) cannot do, and so the comparison becomes moot because of that. A car can't be fixed by downloading a new engine patch or something, while a game bug can be fixed through such means.

If this law suit ends up making companies more alert to bugs and what a truly negative impact they have on the game experience, then great. But I hope this doesn't make people expect that developers can somehow magically ensure that there are no bugs at all, because it's simply not possible.

Cars do have recalls and the repairs are done free of charge to the consumer. I do understand your point though.

The person filing the lawsuit would have to prove that Microsoft did nothing and has done nothing to fix the problem(s) he's filed against. Which as you mentioned with downloaded patches, this will be hard to do, I'd imagine.

I don't think this case will go very far, probably be settled out of court for a comparatively small amount. This should be a class-action lawsuit though; considering I own Halo 3, I expect my check for $1.42 in the next 3-4 years.

Well, MS does too. MS did expand their warranty of the Xbox 360 to 3 years to combat the red ring problem. And back when Halo 3 first came out and people were having problems with the collector's edition disk falling out and getting scratched during travel they replaced those for free. So when it's a physical defect they recall and will fix it for free.

It just comes down to the fact that software is getting compared to physical items that is problematic in this case. Software of all kind has bugs by default, just by their very nature.

I want a check, too.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, in what other industry is a failure rate of 1 in 50 uses considered acceptable?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Electronics. 1 in 50 failure rate is good.

Originally posted by inimalist
no it isn't. Its not 1 in 50 items produced don't work, but that a product that is considered "working" will fail 1 in 50 times.


This is where our conversation gets off. I was using the common "failure rate" term and it appears that inimalist wasn't. I even referenced MTBF and posted a failure rate chart. "1 in 50 times" means 2% failure rate. That's generally measured in 3 years. Failure rate of 2% over 3 years is good, just like I said. This is full blown fail fail. Not temp fail.

Granted, I fueled that "we are not really talking in the same terms" fire by mentioning temporary failures of my 360 and PS3.


The next reply I had to inimalist was NOT about his comment about just simple failures that only require a reboot/powercycling.



And, inimalist: I posted failure rates for electronics. If you want to argue simple fails/temp. malfunctions, that's fine. That's not what I'm arguing.

If you want to be more on topic such as the graphics engine failing to keep up texturing surfaces in the 3d environment (Mass Effect, 360), that's not a complete fail. It doesn't fall under the 1/50 failure rate you refer to. As long as the session remains active and it can continue to be run, it isn't a complete failure, it is a glitch. A complete failure would be the game crashing or the console OS crashing due to the game. Bottom line on this t*t for tat: a 1/50 failure rate over 3 years, for an electronic device, is good.



If you want to argue sessional fails (you play the game 100 times and it crashes 1 time, etc.), then that is more on topic and would be in line with what the IT industry would consider a "failure." Glitches, however, are seen an inevitable evil. Some software programs have more than others. Bungie, as Backfire put it, puts out really high quality software. Surface phasing is really hard to do in the Halo games....a sign of a nicely programed FPS. No sessions ever crashed on any Halo game I've played. Another rarity among video games, especially considering I put more time in on the Halo game than probably 70% of all other games I've played.

He's going to lose for several reason. I think Bungie is going to trump this shit saying, "Both the game and game case state that online gameplay may vary" or something similar. If Bungie is smart (which they are) this idiot is going to lose (though it wouldn't take much to win anyway)

It'll damage Bungies name by getting into the press, so maybe the'll re sue for that crazy world.

Mind you it is well annoying if you spend good money on a game, get well into it and it starts crashing.

Happened to me with "Titan Quest", I got real far, spent hours playing an it crashed and all my save games were gone. I felt like committing murder let alone suing someone.

Thats why I don't buy them anymore, downloading is much cheaper.

Originally posted by Omnislash Kid
He's going to lose for several reason. I think Bungie is going to trump this shit saying, "Both the game and game case state that online gameplay may vary" or something similar. If Bungie is smart (which they are) this idiot is going to lose (though it wouldn't take much to win anyway)


18. WE MAKE NO WARRANTY.

We provide the Service "as-is," "with all faults," and "as available." We do not guarantee the accuracy or timeliness of information available from the Service. The Microsoft parties give no express warranties, guarantees, or conditions under or in relation to the Service, this contract or its subject matter. You may have additional consumer rights under your local laws that this contract cannot change. We exclude any implied warranties, including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, workmanlike effort, and non-infringement.


http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/LiveTOU.htm

Originally posted by The Nuul
18. WE MAKE NO WARRANTY.

We provide the Service "as-is," "with all faults," and "as available." We do not guarantee the accuracy or timeliness of information available from the Service. The Microsoft parties give no express warranties, guarantees, or conditions under or in relation to the Service, this contract or its subject matter. You may have additional consumer rights under your local laws that this contract cannot change. We exclude any implied warranties, including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, workmanlike effort, and non-infringement.


http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/LiveTOU.htm

I guess that's probably the point though "You may have additional consumer rights under your local laws that this contract cannot change."

Originally posted by Bicnarok

Thats why I don't buy them anymore, downloading is much cheaper.

Also easier and they run better.

agreed

I agree on one thing, their customer service sucks ass. Sometimes it takes forever to get a rep and when u do get one, he or she barely speaks english. Its frustrating. Other tha that, I aint gonna whine about a game. If I didnt like it, trade it in.

ho