Minato's Power Level

EvilAngel

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
We all know he's dead at the start of the manga, ala Zack Fair in FF7. He was considered to be the strongest Hokage, but with the way the manga is right now, Akatsuki, Madara's return, the fourth Ninja war, powerful shinobi from different nations being introduced, the power strata in the Narutoverse changed a bit for me. Does anyone still consider Minato in the top 5?

Would he still be alive today if it was Madara himself who attacked Konoha all those years ago instead of the kyuubi? Would he have beaten the first to awaken the Mangekyo?

And on an entirely different matter, I agree with some of the posters saying that speed is the critical factor between Naruto and Bleach. Being Konoha's Yellow Flash, who in Bleach can he beat? stick out tongue

Well he stopped Kakashi after he first learnt chidori in a mere moment. The speed needed for Chidori is roughly the speed of Rock Lee weightless. And so we know he's much faster than that without his space/time jutsu.

Personally i haven't seen anyone in Naruto i think would beat a serious 4th Hokage.

Normally i think Bleach Characters >>>>> Naruto but when it comes to the 4th everything is vague. From what we know he in theory should be stronger than most bleach characters too. That is if you assume he can cut even without spiritual force.

King Kandy

Let's think... we know his space-time jutsu, which is not as good as Madara's... and his rasengan, which is not as good as Naruto's... And his speed which is unknown but what we have seen is no greater than Raikage...

His reputation places him very high but we have not seen enough showings to know how high.

Kento

I don't see why he is status would be changed. He was considered the strongest Hokage, and that really wouldn't change despite the spotlight Harishima is getting. Raikage, who people say is the fastest character seen, has to amp himself with his raiton shroud to be comparable to Minato's own speed. Having a sharingan user, who has a more advanced form of teleporting, and can phase through any attack, see through everything he does didn't really diminish him at all. Even after saying that he still stopped Madara from destroying Konoha, and possibly from obtaining the 10-tails power as only half the Kyuubi's chakra is sealed into Naruto.

draxx_tOfU

Originally posted by EvilAngel

Normally i think Bleach Characters >>>>> Naruto but when it comes to the 4th everything is vague. From what we know he in theory should be stronger than most bleach characters too. That is if you assume he can cut even without spiritual force.

Agreed. I would give Minato favorable odds against shinigami who rely on physical attacks ie Ikkaku, Hisagi, or Renji, and maybe a handful of kidou users as I think jutsu trumps kidou, basically those around vice captain class and lower end captains like......................Hitsugaya. (runs for cover from the Toshiro fanboys)

draxx_tOfU

Originally posted by King Kandy
His reputation places him very high but we have not seen enough showings to know how high.

True.

Which makes him ever more intriguing...

Demonic Phoenix

He's definitely not the most powerful ninja we've seen. Madara was imo, more powerful than him. Perhaps even Nagato was. The Sage was more powerful than anyone we've seen.

His FTG technique is what contributed to his immense reputation. His speed may have been great, but I don't know the exact specifics. His FTG might have contributed to it.

To be honest, I don't know why he is considered above Hashirama or Sarutobi.

That said, in the end, Naruto is going to surpass Minato stick out tongue

.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
Agreed. I would give Minato favorable odds against shinigami who rely on physical attacks ie Ikkaku, Hisagi, or Renji, and maybe a handful of kidou users as I think jutsu trumps kidou, basically those around vice captain class and lower end captains like......................Hitsugaya. (runs for cover from the Toshiro fanboys)

Toshiro isn't lower end no expression

. Middle imo.

draxx_tOfU

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That said, in the end, Naruto is going to surpass Minato stick out tongue

.

Frankly, with Naruto achieving Toad Sage and surpassing Jiraiya whose had a lifetime of training in that mode, has already surpassed Minato power-wise, but not battle-wise imo. I believe Minato would open a can on Naruto in a straight up fight.

That said, would you still put Minato above Sasuke? shifty

EvilAngel

Minato would definately destroy Pain. And since even Madara himself has commented he is weaker than ever before, i don't see Madara beating the "Greatest Hokage" when the 1st whopped him hard.

Naruto has raw power in spades, but Minato is still something else.

And imo Toshiro is one of if not the weakest captain. I honestly see him as a weaker version of Byakuya. Balanced fighter type. But Toshiro lacks experience, feats of kido ability and his Zanpaktou isn't as broken.

NemeBro

None are above Sasuke backed by the plot.

Anyway.

What we know of his is little, but we know he has a powerful Time/Space jutsu, although Kakashi asserts that it is actually inferior to Madara's, and allegedly Raikage's top speed equals it (Somehow...). We know he possessed usage of at least the normal Rasengan, and in terms of normal speed is much faster than Rock Lee as EA said. He also had command over Gamabunta as a summon.

Also, the title of "strongest Hokage" seems to be disputed among some...Iruka for instance regarded the Third as the strongest, Madara considers the First the strongest, and I am pretty sure it was Jiraiya who said Minato was. They are all very powerful, although personally, I would consider the First the strongest, I find Madara to be a more reliable source than Iruka and equally as reliable to Jiraiya, and in the First's battle with the Kyuubi his Wood Release abilities were shown to be extraordinarily powerful, actually grappling with the Kyuubi IIRC.

Regardless, all three are some of the most powerful Shinobi to ever live, but on the topic of the Fourth, although personally I do not even think he is on a primed Madara's level, he is still easily in the top ten of the series most likely.

NemeBro

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Minato would definately destroy Pain. And since even Madara himself has commented he is weaker than ever before, i don't see Madara beating the "Greatest Hokage" when the 1st whopped him hard.

Naruto has raw power in spades, but Minato is still something else.

And imo Toshiro is one of if not the weakest captain. I honestly see him as a weaker version of Byakuya. Balanced fighter type. But Toshiro lacks experience, feats of kido ability and his Zanpaktou isn't as broken. Why would Minato destroy Pain? erm

EvilAngel

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why would Minato destroy Pain? erm

I mean, sure it is possible, but to state it is a fact is ridiculous, we do not know Minato's full power.

Madara was a regular rival for the First, constantly battling, it was only the final battle that Madara was weakened.

Toshiro is one of the weakest captains, yeah.
Simply because if his Jutsu works as i recall, he can move between his special kunai using his time/space jutsu then there's nothing i've seen of Pain to make an argument he could beat that.

Naija boy

Id say he might make it into the top 5 but without more feats we cant be sure. I dont see him beating nagato/pain at all. honestly looking at all pain/nagato did and considering that he was dying and extremely weakened while doing it, i dont see anyone aside the sage beating a prime nagato. Heck if he even came close to nagato hed probably have his chakra taken over.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
Frankly, with Naruto achieving Toad Sage and surpassing Jiraiya whose had a lifetime of training in that mode, has already surpassed Minato power-wise, but not battle-wise imo. I believe Minato would open a can on Naruto in a straight up fight.

That said, would you still put Minato above Sasuke? shifty

Naruto has surpassed Minato in some aspects: Stamina, chakra level, Rasengan's mastery.

Minato is just a better ninja though, one with a better rep, and one who can kick much more ass.

Hell no. Sharingan/HAX no jutsu pwns every fool that decides to go up against it shifty

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Minato would definately destroy Pain. And since even Madara himself has commented he is weaker than ever before, i don't see Madara beating the "Greatest Hokage" when the 1st whopped him hard.

Current Madara would lose, but not the Madara that faced Hashirama in their fights.

'Greatest hokage' =/= most powerful. It falls down to reputation as it was his FTG that helped them win the war.

Honestly, the third while very old took on Orochimaru and the 1st and the 2nd (although they didn't fight to full capacity imo) and still managed to win to a degree. He'd be above Minato while he was in his prime imo.

Hashirama took on a pissed off Madara in control of the Fox and won. (though for some reason, I think Madara's blind rage may have cost him the fight)

Going by feats, Minato isn't close as he hasn't shown a lot. All we have is his reputation and a few statements to be honest.

I also find Raikage's top speed = Minato's kinda hard to believe. FTG might have contributed to this again, as I don't think the opposing countries knew the secret behind it and probably just attributed it to pure speed.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Simply because if his Jutsu works as i recall, he can move between his special kunai using his time/space jutsu then there's nothing i've seen of Pain to make an argument he could beat that.

FTG is a godsend of a jutsu when up against a squadron or such. Not so much against a small squad and even less when up against a single opponent. His best shot is to KO each Pain with each teleport but that might be easier said than done.

Besides, doesn't he have to place the kunai's or something like that?

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by NemeBro
None are above Sasuke backed by the plot.

Anyway.

What we know of his is little, but we know he has a powerful Time/Space jutsu, although Kakashi asserts that it is actually inferior to Madara's, and allegedly Raikage's top speed equals it (Somehow...). We know he possessed usage of at least the normal Rasengan, and in terms of normal speed is much faster than Rock Lee as EA said. He also had command over Gamabunta as a summon.

Also, the title of "strongest Hokage" seems to be disputed among some...Iruka for instance regarded the Third as the strongest, Madara considers the First the strongest, and I am pretty sure it was Jiraiya who said Minato was. They are all very powerful, although personally, I would consider the First the strongest, I find Madara to be a more reliable source than Iruka and equally as reliable to Jiraiya, and in the First's battle with the Kyuubi his Wood Release abilities were shown to be extraordinarily powerful, actually grappling with the Kyuubi IIRC.

Regardless, all three are some of the most powerful Shinobi to ever live, but on the topic of the Fourth, although personally I do not even think he is on a primed Madara's level, he is still easily in the top ten of the series most likely.

Madara's control and variety with S/T justu is better. That's probably what Kakashi meant. So in a way, he is actually better.

Hyperbole on Shi's part, amirite? FTG can theoretically cover more ground in the same time than Raikage could as it's a teleport. Also, Raikage's top speed is above Minato's top speed (non-FTG) imo.

I'm with you on the First and Madara (they were regarded as equals iirc, and I think Madara lost the last battle as he was blinded by rage), but I honestly think the Third in his prime was better than Minato in his prime erm

. The Third we've seen in the fight against Orochimaru is probably lower than Minato.

draxx_tOfU

the First defeated Madara because he possesed something more powerful than the sharingan, teh uber will of fire...

Slaanesh

i don't think Minato is more powerful than the 1st Hokage or Madara..maybe he's around Itachi level..

AsbestosFlaygon

Minato is still in the top 10 I believe.

He is weaker than Third Hokage (at his prime), Madara (FP), Harashima, Nagato, and Rikudou-Sennin.
And eventually, Narutard.

Endless Mike

Shodai Hokage was stronger than Minato, since he beat Madara and the Kyuubi and didn't die doing so

King Kandy

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Shodai Hokage was stronger than Minato, since he beat Madara and the Kyuubi and didn't die doing so
Uh huh and that could not possibly have to do with his ability to control Biju right.

Hashirama had a handy kekkai genkai that could control and suppress the kyuubi, Minato had to do things the hard way by contracting a ****ing god to do the job for him.

draxx_tOfU

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Shodai Hokage was stronger than Minato, since he beat Madara and the Kyuubi and didn't die doing so

but maybe because the Mokuton has properties that can contain the kyuubi...

which now makes me think that had the Third been protecting Konoha at the time of the kyuubi's attack, maybe Konoha would have fallen as I honestly don't think that Sarutobi can overpower the nine tails pokemon...

King Kandy

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
but maybe because the Mokuton has properties that can contain the kyuubi...

which now makes me think that had the Third been protecting Konoha at the time of the kyuubi's attack, maybe Konoha would have fallen as I honestly don't think that Sarutobi can overpower the nine tails pokemon...
Um Sarutobi knows the same jutsu Minato did, i'd say he was the only one there who COULD HAVE stopped it...

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
but maybe because the Mokuton has properties that can contain the kyuubi...

which now makes me think that had the Third been protecting Konoha at the time of the kyuubi's attack, maybe Konoha would have fallen as I honestly don't think that Sarutobi can overpower the nine tails pokemon...

Sarutobi wouldn't have been able to do the job, I agree, but maybe that's because he was around as old as the Tsuchikage no expression

. Why do you think he made Minato the Hokage in the first place?

draxx_tOfU

wasn't Minato the one who developed the jutsu though?...

iirc the first and only time that Sarutobi used the RDS was when he fought Orochimaru, and this too was where he mentioned that the Fourth created said jutsu...

draxx_tOfU

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sarutobi wouldn't have been able to do the job, I agree, but maybe that's because he was around as old as the Tsuchikage no expression

. Why do you think he made Minato the Hokage in the first place?

touche...

so is it safe to assume then that Sarutobi in his prime can overpower the kyuubi?...

what do you guys think?...

King Kandy

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
wasn't Minato the one who developed the jutsu though?...

iirc the first and only time that Sarutobi used the RDS was when he fought Orochimaru, and this too was where he mentioned that the Fourth created said jutsu...
He developed it but that doesn't matter. Sarutobi knew it and could perform it. Thus, he could seal the kyuubi.

draxx_tOfU

which would have yielded the same result as Minato's, him being the sacrifice in exchange for sealing the demon fox...

your statement below seems to imply a different outcome...

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um Sarutobi knows the same jutsu Minato did, i'd say he was the only one there who COULD HAVE stopped it...

Demonic Phoenix

This: Originally posted by King Kandy
Um Sarutobi knows the same jutsu Minato did, i'd say he was the only one there who COULD HAVE stopped it...
was talking about Sarutobi at the time of the Kyuubi's attack when it was sealed by Minato.

This: Originally posted by King Kandy
He developed it but that doesn't matter. Sarutobi knew it and could perform it. Thus, he could seal the kyuubi.
was talking about Sarutobi during his prime.

~ Mokuton or Hashirama's necklace+chakra may be able to quell the Bijuu, but it might not have been able to wrest control of the Kyuubi from Madara.
At best, it would have meant that the Kyuubi was a non-factor, but Hashirama still had a blinded-by-rage EMS wielding Madara to deal with.

EvilAngel

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Current Madara would lose, but not the Madara that faced Hashirama in their fights.

'Greatest hokage' =/= most powerful. It falls down to reputation as it was his FTG that helped them win the war.

Honestly, the third while very old took on Orochimaru and the 1st and the 2nd (although they didn't fight to full capacity imo) and still managed to win to a degree. He'd be above Minato while he was in his prime imo.

Hashirama took on a pissed off Madara in control of the Fox and won. (though for some reason, I think Madara's blind rage may have cost him the fight)

Going by feats, Minato isn't close as he hasn't shown a lot. All we have is his reputation and a few statements to be honest.

I also find Raikage's top speed = Minato's kinda hard to believe. FTG might have contributed to this again, as I don't think the opposing countries knew the secret behind it and probably just attributed it to pure speed.

FTG is a godsend of a jutsu when up against a squadron or such. Not so much against a small squad and even less when up against a single opponent. His best shot is to KO each Pain with each teleport but that might be easier said than done.

Besides, doesn't he have to place the kunai's or something like that?

I respectfully disagree. Throughout the series there have been several references to the Fourths ability. Though never directly stated it is suggested he is the strongest. When talking about Orochimaru the third admitted he probably couldn't beat him, Anko mentions she wished the fourth were still alive, as apparently he could beat Orochimaru. Jiraiya mentions the fourth was a genius that comes once a generation, and there won't be another like him for years. Kakashi believes that Naruto will Surpass the fourth.

All of those things indicate that the fourth is the strongest Hokage known to those characters. Now consider than an Old Third beat the 1st and 2nd together. While i have no doubt they were not at full strength this is a good feat. Also note how the Third states he must not allow the 3rd coffin to be summon, as it contains the fourth. While it could be interpreted as 3 Hokages would be too much, i see it as he believes he would be unable to beat the fourth.

Sounds like some FTG underrating to me. Alright this is how i see it. FTG is a time/space jutsu. Why do you think it's called that?

It's not merely highspeed. It's controlling time and/or space. Moving from A to B Instantly.

No current Naruto character has feats of being able to fight an ability like that. And this ability was winning entire battles on it's own.

As i understand it he can use this ability within parameters of his Kunai. So all he has to do is throw them in 3 or more directions, and within the area they land, he literally cannot be touched.

King Kandy

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
which would have yielded the same result as Minato's, him being the sacrifice in exchange for sealing the demon fox...

your statement below seems to imply a different outcome...
No, I said he knew the same jutsu in order to imply he'd use the same jutsu to get the same result.

EvilAngel

Actually, after looking it up, Kakashi says: "Only you can surpass the fourth Hokage"

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/321/12/

Kento

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
but Hashirama still had a blinded-by-rage EMS wielding Madara to deal with. Which he had been beating on for years before VoTE though Madara wasn't blinded-by-rage in those instances. stick out tongue

draxx_tOfU

It seems the First, the Third, and the Fourth could be jostled between top and second place, or more like number 1 followed by 2a and 2b, very close indeed...

Does Nidaime even have feats?...

Kento

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
It seems the First, the Third, and the Fourth could be jostled between top and second place, or more like number 1 followed by 2a and 2b, very close indeed...

Does Nidaime even have feats?... Only he's suppose to be able to be skilled enough to create lakes of water from nowhere, and the databooks I believe say he was unparalleled in taijutsu. And he most likely fought Madara's brother evenly just like Shodai fought Madara since the Uchiha brothers, and the Senju brothers were the leaders.

draxx_tOfU

Originally posted by Kento
Only he's suppose to be able to be skilled enough to create lakes of water from nowhere, and the databooks I believe say he was unparalleled in taijutsu. And he most likely fought Madara's brother evenly just like Shodai fought Madara since the Uchiha brothers, and the Senju brothers were the leaders.

sweet...

which means he's still below Tsunade right?... stick out tongue

Kento

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
sweet...

which means he's still below Tsunade right?... stick out tongue

All the Hokages are below Tsunade. She's still alive.... and not being tortured for all eternity stick out tongue

Darth Angel

I thought I read somewhere that kishimoto said in an interview that Minato was the strongest hokage, sharing the 1st spot with a prime Sarutobi.

Anyway, I say that Minato was one of the strongest indeed, he created the Rasengan (and dominated the technique, yes, let's not forget that even though Naruto can already use rasenshuriken, he can't still make a single normal rasengan without the help from a kage bushin, and probably will not do it in the next years, since minato need 3 years to completly master it and jiraya 6), he created the dead god consuming seal, a weapon sarutobi wouldn't have if he hadn't seen Minato using it against kyubi, and as such he wouldn't be able to defend konoha from the nine tails or orochimaru, and with his hiraishin and his incredible speed, I think he would be almost impossible to fight to anyone below kage level. I also believe that Minato's chakra should probably be quite high, seing how much chakra naruto has (my guess is that such trait comes from his father). It's just an opinion though.

Anyway, seing the statements and feats about Minato, I would put him quite high, even though the lack of information or feats about him makes it difficult to measure his true power, so I would put the hokages' power as something like 4th, 3rd and 1st on the top, 2nd a bit behind, followed by tsunade and then finally danzo.

In order to finish this, I would just like to say something curious. If anyone goes see shippuden's first episode, in the end Naruto talks about all the hokages, and says that the 2nd was "the men with best combat ability". Just something to add to the debate lol.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
All the Hokages are below Tsunade.

That necro WH0RE! mad

King Kandy

Originally posted by Kento
All the Hokages are below Tsunade. She's still alive.... and not being tortured for all eternity stick out tongue

That is pretty strange... a technique only two people knew, what are the odds it ends up snaring all four of them... even after two were already dead.

You know now that I think about it it was a terrible deal for the first and second... I mean their only crime was being resurrected by Orochimaru, now they're basically in hell forever.

Kento

dadudemon

Originally posted by King Kandy
That is pretty strange... a technique only two people knew, what are the odds it ends up snaring all four of them... even after two were already dead.

You know now that I think about it it was a terrible deal for the first and second... I mean their only crime was being resurrected by Orochimaru, now they're basically in hell forever.

I've been thinking about this since I first read about the sealing of Biju AND I read about the Demon Fox's chakra being split into two: ying and yang.

So, that means half of the chakra is sealed away in the Shinigami and the other half in Naruto.

Unless Madara has a way to retrieve that chakra from the Demon, his Moon's Eye Plan is fail.

If he does have a way, that means the other Hokages can be freed, which includes Minato.

King Kandy

I get the feeling the half-split chakra is going to end up just being an aborted plot element.

Demonic Phoenix

. Enma stated that his prowess against Orochimaru was miserable when compared to how he was when he was younger, or something like that. I'd take Enma's word as truth, as he was Sarutobi's personal summon and would have been at his side in many battles.

He states that Naruto can surpass the 4th, but he doesn't say that Minato had surpassed the 1st or 3rd.

Also, Kakashi's statement could be similar to how Itachi told Sasuke that he would be the only one to surpass Madara (I know he was lying), or that Sasuke can truly surpass Itachi, i.e. because they are connected.

We've had geniuses appear in many generations (Madara/Hashirama/Madara's brother, Sarutobi, Orochimaru, Minato, Itachi, Sasuke/Neji). Of those that came after Minato, I'd say Itachi was the closest to being as 'geniusy' as Minato.

It could have been a mixture of both really. 3 Kages, however weakened, is still too much for an old ninja. He flat out told the two kages that they should prepare for their defeat, and he was holding back somewhat iirc (as he didn't want to hurt them or something like that) until he found out that they would regenerate.

It's what I've been trying to say all along. The Sarutobi that is present in the manga timeline is below Minato. Though Sarutobi at his prime was most likely better than Minato.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Sounds like some FTG underrating to me. Alright this is how i see it. FTG is a time/space jutsu. Why do you think it's called that?

It's not merely highspeed. It's controlling time and/or space. Moving from A to B Instantly.

No current Naruto character has feats of being able to fight an ability like that. And this ability was winning entire battles on it's own.

As i understand it he can use this ability within parameters of his Kunai. So all he has to do is throw them in 3 or more directions, and within the area they land, he literally cannot be touched.

I already know the specifics of the FTG, and that it's a teleport. I'm also not underrating it. He was winning battles on his own true, but tbh, his enemies were nowhere near the level of the Paths.

If he's unable to KO them quickly, Nagato is bound to figure out the technique. Minato would also most likely have no clue as to what each Path could do, so he'd be at a disadvantage, for a short time though imo.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hyperbole on Shi's part, amirite? FTG can theoretically cover more ground in the same time than Raikage could, as it's a teleport. Also, Raikage's top speed is above Minato's top speed (non-FTG) imo.

^ That is what I meant by speed.

Actually, it's a seal that is the key. He puts the seal on the kunai. He can also put his seal on anything and then appear next to the seal at any time. Thus, he could technically put his seals on any of the Paths. He has to get close to them first of course.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by Kento
Which he had been beating on for years before VoTE though Madara wasn't blinded-by-rage in those instances. stick out tongue

How do you know Hashirama was beating on him? Madara was spanking that ass tohslaugh

It could have been a tie or a loss for Hashirama for all we know erm

. According to Itachi, at the time Madara was the strongest ninja stick out tongue

.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I thought I read somewhere that kishimoto said in an interview that Minato was the strongest hokage, sharing the 1st spot with a prime Sarutobi./B]

Link, NAO, or you're wrong mad

Originally posted by Darth Angel
the 2nd was "the men with best combat ability". Just something to add to the debate lol.

Taijutsu most likely.

NemeBro

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I respectfully disagree. Throughout the series there have been several references to the Fourths ability. Though never directly stated it is suggested he is the strongest. When talking about Orochimaru the third admitted he probably couldn't beat him, Anko mentions she wished the fourth were still alive, as apparently he could beat Orochimaru. Jiraiya mentions the fourth was a genius that comes once a generation, and there won't be another like him for years. Kakashi believes that Naruto will Surpass the fourth.

All of those things indicate that the fourth is the strongest Hokage known to those characters. Now consider than an Old Third beat the 1st and 2nd together. While i have no doubt they were not at full strength this is a good feat. Also note how the Third states he must not allow the 3rd coffin to be summon, as it contains the fourth. While it could be interpreted as 3 Hokages would be too much, i see it as he believes he would be unable to beat the fourth.

Sounds like some FTG underrating to me. Alright this is how i see it. FTG is a time/space jutsu. Why do you think it's called that?

It's not merely highspeed. It's controlling time and/or space. Moving from A to B Instantly.

No current Naruto character has feats of being able to fight an ability like that. And this ability was winning entire battles on it's own.

As i understand it he can use this ability within parameters of his Kunai. So all he has to do is throw them in 3 or more directions, and within the area they land, he literally cannot be touched. The Third admitted that he probably could not beat Orochimaru because he was very old, Orochimaru himself admitted that if the Third were ten years younger he could kill him, and he still held his own against Orochimaru. The Fourth prolly would beat Oro, Oro is on the lower end of the top tiers in Naruto now. Jiraiya did say that, yes, but he was unaware of other powers in Naruto at the time, and he hyped up Pain even greater than Minato, hyping him to nigh-biblical in abilities. Kakashi said that only he can surpass the Fourth, was this not before meeting the likes of Pain, and before he was aware of Madara? Everyone before the Fourth who is like, dead, is obviously exempt from Kakashi's statement as well.

No it doesn't, all of those spoke entirely in present tense, if he were alive, yes, he WOULD be strongest, since the first two Hokage were dead, and the Third was aged and weakened. They were at nowhere near full strength, the Shodai at least was shown during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu, something the Fourth has not to my knowledge replicated. Um, he was already fighting Orochimaru, a Kage level ninja, and two other (Weakened) kages, it would be suicide to allow him to summon the Fourth.

Um, was there anyone disputing it was teleportation? As for no one Naruto character being able to counter that...Well, Madara has a more advanced variation of it that is activated at a whim, and it also grants him intangibility and the power to send people to other dimensions. We know the Shodai was able to combat Madara and was victorious.

That is not how FTG works. He can only teleport to each individual seal, not everything within the seal's parameters.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by dadudemon
Unless Madara has a way to retrieve that chakra from the Demon, his Moon's Eye Plan is fail.
If he does have a way, that means the other Hokages can be freed, which includes Minato.

He probably does. That, or the Jyuubi will lose a portion of it's chakra leading to a kink in the technique. Meh.

Thing is, WRT the Kyuubi's chakra, it's just that, chakra. The other 4 area all dead...though now that you mention it, Madara might make the hokages fight for him. Wouldn't that be ironic...or they'd fight against Madara, double meh.

NemeBro

Or Kishimoto is just gonna drop the yin yang thing.

EvilAngel

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
When Sarutobi was talking being unable to defeat Orochimaru, he was way past his prime and he knew it erm

. Enma stated that his prowess against Orochimaru was miserable when compared to how he was when he was younger, or something like that. I'd take Enma's word as truth, as he was Sarutobi's personal summon and would have been at his side in many battles.

He states that Naruto can surpass the 4th, but he doesn't say that Minato had surpassed the 1st or 3rd.

Also, Kakashi's statement could be similar to how Itachi told Sasuke that he would be the only one to surpass Madara (I know he was lying), or that Sasuke can truly surpass Itachi, i.e. because they are connected.

We've had geniuses appear in many generations (Madara/Hashirama/Madara's brother, Sarutobi, Orochimaru, Minato, Itachi, Sasuke/Neji). Of those that came after Minato, I'd say Itachi was the closest to being as 'geniusy' as Minato.

It could have been a mixture of both really. 3 Kages, however weakened, is still too much for an old ninja. He flat out told the two kages that they should prepare for their defeat, and he was holding back somewhat iirc (as he didn't want to hurt them or something like that) until he found out that they would regenerate.

It's what I've been trying to say all along. The Sarutobi that is present in the manga timeline is below Minato. Though Sarutobi at his prime was most likely better than Minato.

I already know the specifics of the FTG, and that it's a teleport. I'm also not underrating it. He was winning battles on his own true, but tbh, his enemies were nowhere near the level of the Paths.

If he's unable to KO them quickly, Nagato is bound to figure out the technique. Minato would also most likely have no clue as to what each Path could do, so he'd be at a disadvantage, for a short time though imo.

Prime Sarutobi huh?

Well Sarutobi wasn't THAT old when Minato took over as Hokage. So Sarutobi wasn't that over the hill, so to speak, before Minato became stronger than him. Even by your logic.

This is true, but then it doesn't mean anything. Kakashi says "Only you(Naruto) can surpass the Fourth". To my, this means only Naruto is capable of surpassing the fourth in a manner that suggests the fourth is the greatest/strongest Ninja. I mean, if the fourth was for example fourth strongest, it wouldn't be as meaningful would it? he would probably say "You can surpass the fourth" since others already have. But that's not the case "Only you" are key words here that i think you're not appreciating.

I believe in that instance he's talking about their clan. So since 90% of all other characters in the Naruto series aren't Uchiha they don't really qualify.

Minato was a genius, but that's not what people said about him. "He's a genius who will only appear once a generation." Let's face it, the only one of those who has any feats that are really of 'Genius level' is Itachi, and even he isn't on Minato's level.

Nothing we have seen or heard from or about Sarutobi suggests he'd beat Minato.

Kento

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
How do you know Hashirama was beating on him? Madara was spanking that ass tohslaugh

It could have been a tie or a loss for Hashirama for all we know erm

. According to Itachi, at the time Madara was the strongest ninja stick out tongue

.
The Will of Fire can't be beaten by some Uchiha only looking for fame. shifty

And according to Madara, Shodai was the greatest of their time.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Minato was a genius, but that's not what people said about him. "He's a genius who will only appear once a generation." Let's face it, the only one of those who has any feats that are really of 'Genius level' is Itachi, and even he isn't on Minato's level.
Well didn't Itachi graduate from the Academy at like 8? That's two years faster than Minato. lol

Demonic Phoenix

NemeBro

Sarutobi's title wasn't the "God of Shinobi" for no reason...And EA, we have absolutely no idea how much the Third's power dropped when he appointed Minato Hokage, also, him being appointed Kage does not necessarily mean he is stronger, Orochimaru was Hiruzen's first pick, although he later took it back, and the Third was stronger than Orochimaru then.

Edit: Actually, thinking back, wasn't Jiraiya the Third's SECOND choice, but he did not choose him because of his journeys? That would make Minato only his third choice. erm

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Prime Sarutobi huh?

Well Sarutobi wasn't THAT old when Minato took over as Hokage. So Sarutobi wasn't that over the hill, so to speak, before Minato became stronger than him. Even by your logic.

Orochimaru fought Sarutobi ~12 years after Minato died. Minato become Hokage a few years before that. Passing over the torch doesn't necessarily mean that Minato was stronger at that point. We saw Sarutobi fight that many years after he gave up the seat. He was old and he was a shadow of his former self. We are also comparing them at their prime, not at the same point in time.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
This is true, but then it doesn't mean anything. Kakashi says "Only you(Naruto) can surpass the Fourth". To my, this means only Naruto is capable of surpassing the fourth in a manner that suggests the fourth is the greatest/strongest Ninja. I mean, if the fourth was for example fourth strongest, it wouldn't be as meaningful would it? he would probably say "You can surpass the fourth" since others already have. But that's not the case "Only you" are key words here that i think you're not appreciating.

How would ninja that existed before Minato be able to surpass him no expression

?
Kakashi probably hasn't seen first hand what the 3rd could really do at full strength. That is definitely the case for the 1st, which is not for the 4th however.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I believe in that instance he's talking about their clan. So since 90% of all other characters in the Naruto series aren't Uchiha they don't really qualify.

Goes back to connection. Hence, Naruto would be the only one who could truly surpass his father.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Minato was a genius, but that's not what people said about him. "He's a genius who will only appear once a generation." Let's face it, the only one of those who has any feats that are really of 'Genius level' is Itachi, and even he isn't on Minato's level.

Orochimaru was a genius that only appeared once in a generation (resurrection jutsu, reincarnation). As was Sarutobi (said to have mastered every jutsu in Konoha). As was Kakashi. As was Itachi. Sasuke is arguably a better genius than Itachi when it comes to usage of techniques, but not with disposition and awareness in battle.

Minato was a great genius, I'm not arguing that. That however, does not automatically make him the strongest hokage.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by Kento
The Will of Fire can't be beaten by some Uchiha only looking for fame. shifty

And according to Madara, Shodai was the greatest of their time.

Well didn't Itachi graduate from the Academy at like 8? That's two years faster than Minato. lol

The will of fire can't be beat by the Sharingan/Hax no jutsu stick out tongue

.

Madara is a liar stick out tongue

.

He mastered the sharingan at 8. He graduated at 7. Kakashi did it at 5. So yeah...Itachi is still a better genius though stick out tongue

. Teh best of his generation. As was Kakashi. As is Sasuke (in part two at least imo)

Kento

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sarutobi's title wasn't the "God of Shinobi" for no reason...And EA, we have absolutely no idea how much the Third's power dropped when he appointed Minato Hokage, also, him being appointed Kage does not necessarily mean he is stronger, Orochimaru was Hiruzen's first pick, although he later took it back, and the Third was stronger than Orochimaru then.

Edit: Actually, thinking back, wasn't Jiraiya the Third's SECOND choice, but he did not choose him because of his journeys? That would make Minato only his third choice. erm

Jiraiya was never chosen by Sarutobi that I can recall. It was Oro first, but that was only because Sarutobi was blinded by the fact Oro was his favorite student not really about power. Wasn't Oro, and Minato chosen at different times though? He just didn't give it to Oro because of what Oro did and Saru kept being Hokage?

EvilAngel

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Third admitted that he probably could not beat Orochimaru because he was very old, Orochimaru himself admitted that if the Third were ten years younger he could kill him, and he still held his own against Orochimaru. The Fourth prolly would beat Oro, Oro is on the lower end of the top tiers in Naruto now. Jiraiya did say that, yes, but he was unaware of other powers in Naruto at the time, and he hyped up Pain even greater than Minato, hyping him to nigh-biblical in abilities. Kakashi said that only he can surpass the Fourth, was this not before meeting the likes of Pain, and before he was aware of Madara? Everyone before the Fourth who is like, dead, is obviously exempt from Kakashi's statement as well.

No it doesn't, all of those spoke entirely in present tense, if he were alive, yes, he WOULD be strongest, since the first two Hokage were dead, and the Third was aged and weakened. They were at nowhere near full strength, the Shodai at least was shown during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu, something the Fourth has not to my knowledge replicated. Um, he was already fighting Orochimaru, a Kage level ninja, and two other (Weakened) kages, it would be suicide to allow him to summon the Fourth.

Um, was there anyone disputing it was teleportation? As for no one Naruto character being able to counter that...Well, Madara has a more advanced variation of it that is activated at a whim, and it also grants him intangibility and the power to send people to other dimensions. We know the Shodai was able to combat Madara and was victorious.

That is not how FTG works. He can only teleport to each individual seal, not everything within the seal's parameters.

Naruto just beat Pain, do you really think Naruto could beat the Fourth? Pain is strong because he has 6 bodies with great abilities working together. The Fourth is strong because he's unfairly fast, and has a utterly broken Jutsu. But where did Jiraiya Hype Pain up more than the Fourth? He only gave him the credit he did if my memory serves correctly because Jiraiya was told he would train a student who would bring destruction or peace in a propecy, and oh, on of his students has the Mythic Rinnegan. He jumped to a conclusion, but never hyped up Pain more than the fourth, yet, if you want to prove me wrong there Neme, i wait with great antcipation.

What nonesense. 'Grapple with the Kyuubi with his wood release'? Where did you pick up that bullsh*t? The First can control the Bijuu's like pets, like Madara can. It has nothing to do with grappling or overpowering them in any physical way. Unless you seriously think his wood techniques can physically subdue a creature who ripped itself out of a black hole at 8 tails?

I already said that was one way of looking at it. That's how you see it. I see it that the Fourth who atleast up until that point was the most Hyped up Ninja in history would kind of Kick his ass, but we all have our veiwpoints.

More advanced just means he doesn't need the markings. Also you're not exactly correct. When he marks an area, either by Kunai or other way, he can they sense all things within a certain range of that mark. He can move to the mark, but can also move within a certain distance of the mark. So what i said was true, from a certain point of veiw. If you want proof you don't need to look up, i did provide a scan i think on the first page. In it you see the Fourth teleport behind his target, not on the mark, since he marked the targets foot.

In all seriousness "during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu"

If you think that's true in the way i'm reading it. You just lost several dozen pounds on the intelligence-o-meter.

Kento

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The will of fire can't be beat by the Sharingan/Hax no jutsu stick out tongue

.

Madara is a liar stick out tongue

.

He mastered the sharingan at 8. He graduated at 7. Kakashi did it at 5. So yeah...Itachi is still a better genius though stick out tongue

. Teh best of his generation. As was Kakashi. As is Sasuke (in part two at least imo) stick out tongue

Yea, only Orochimaru can beat a person with the Will Of Fire, not some hax-eye Uchiha.

laughing

Sasuke's genius is overthrown by Neji.

EvilAngel

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Orochimaru fought Sarutobi ~12 years after Minato died. Minato become Hokage a few years before that. Passing over the torch doesn't necessarily mean that Minato was stronger at that point. We saw Sarutobi fight that many years after he gave up the seat. He was old and he was a shadow of his former self. We are also comparing them at their prime, not at the same point in time.

How would ninja that existed before Minato be able to surpass him no expression

?
Kakashi probably hasn't seen first hand what the 3rd could really do at full strength. That is definitely the case for the 1st, which is not for the 4th however.

Goes back to connection. Hence, Naruto would be the only one who could truly surpass his father.

Orochimaru was a genius that only appeared once in a generation (resurrection jutsu, reincarnation). As was Sarutobi (said to have mastered every jutsu in Konoha). As was Kakashi. As was Itachi. Sasuke is arguably a better genius than Itachi when it comes to usage of techniques, but not with disposition and awareness in battle.

Minato was a great genius, I'm not arguing that. That however, does not automatically make him the strongest hokage.

Passing over Hokage to someone else during war means allot. Let's suppose you are correct just for this example's sake. Why else would he do it? Minato is wiser? smarter? a better tactition? I cannot think of a reason that doesn't mean Minato is in atleast one way better. And Tbh i said Sarutobi has no feats of being able to counter FTG, and so far you nor Nemebro have given me one.

Simple, Minato did not surpass them.
Yeah, well as great as that might be in your head it doesn't mean anything. The fourth was the greatest Hokage of all. They teach it at Konoga academy, and the third was present. So... go figure.

None of those had those exact words said about them. They are all geniuses. But not of the Fourth's Calibur.

Itachi was Anbu Captain at the age of 13. Sasuke's got nothing on him.

Kento

EvilAngel

Originally posted by Kento
Minato didn't become Hokage until after the war was over.

Is that right?

I thought i recalled him becoming Hokage during the war. Well, not exactly an important detail.

NemeBro

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Naruto just beat Pain, do you really think Naruto could beat the Fourth? Pain is strong because he has 6 bodies with great abilities working together. The Fourth is strong because he's unfairly fast, and has a utterly broken Jutsu. But where did Jiraiya Hype Pain up more than the Fourth? He only gave him the credit he did if my memory serves correctly because Jiraiya was told he would train a student who would bring destruction or peace in a propecy, and oh, on of his students has the Mythic Rinnegan. He jumped to a conclusion, but never hyped up Pain more than the fourth, yet, if you want to prove me wrong there Neme, i wait with great antcipation.

What nonesense. 'Grapple with the Kyuubi with his wood release'? Where did you pick up that bullsh*t? The First can control the Bijuu's like pets, like Madara can. It has nothing to do with grappling or overpowering them in any physical way. Unless you seriously think his wood techniques can physically subdue a creature who ripped itself out of a black hole at 8 tails?

I already said that was one way of looking at it. That's how you see it. I see it that the Fourth who atleast up until that point was the most Hyped up Ninja in history would kind of Kick his ass, but we all have our veiwpoints.

More advanced just means he doesn't need the markings. Also you're not exactly correct. When he marks an area, either by Kunai or other way, he can they sense all things within a certain range of that mark. He can move to the mark, but can also move within a certain distance of the mark. So what i said was true, from a certain point of veiw. If you want proof you don't need to look up, i did provide a scan i think on the first page. In it you see the Fourth teleport behind his target, not on the mark, since he marked the targets foot.

In all seriousness "during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu"

If you think that's true in the way i'm reading it. You just lost several dozen pounds on the intelligence-o-meter. Right, because Pain TOTALLY didn't have several advantages in his fight right? Pain started the fight weakened and had prep for the fight, not even counting how the plot held Naruto's hand through the entire fight. Not a credible example. Pain's Deva Realm alone is above the level of a very powerful Jounin like Kakashi, hell, in his fight with Naruto he did most of the fighting. Where? When he thought he was some destined child of prophecy and because he possessed the Rinnegan, which I am pretty sure he said was a Divine gift. He hyped him more. I am not saying Pain is definately stronger, but to say that the Yondaime HAS to be more powerful based on one technique he has is ludicrous.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/10-11/

We can clearly see wooden tendrils of the First grappling around the Kyuubi's right legs (Both of them) and beginning to do so with its torso. Kyuubi is also visibly struggling. Make sure you are actually right before you insult my intelligence next time. Oh, and Chibaku Tensei is not an actual black hole, obviously.

One way? No, Kakashi was speaking that Naruto is the only one who can surpass the Yondaime, present tense, he did not say that Naruto will be the only one who has ever been more powerful than the Yondaime, he was speaking in terms of the present, and on limited information.

It means he not only does not need markings, no hand seals, nothing, he does it with a thought. Keep in mind this is a WEAKENED Madara, who Madara himself describes as powerless. I know he can perceive things around it, and yes, I agree he does not need to literally teleport on the mark, but in its general area.

Yeah, I proved that. Seriously, I would have hoped you would not have jumped to insulting me before even seeing my proof.

dadudemon

I thought Oro. was discovered doing his experiments when he was in his 20s? And that's when Sarutobi wanted to give the mantle over.

Minato would have either not been born yet or be a small child. No way he could have become hokage at the age. Sarutobi just kept the title for another 15-20 years,and handed it over when he was in his...what....50s?

Then, that puts Sarutobi nicely in his late 60s when he fought Oro during he Konoha invasion.

In fact, I think in the anime, when Sarutobi is doing his flash back, he mentions something about waiting another decade or two before finally finding a worthy successor.

NemeBro

Like I said, another can become Hokage without necessarily being stronger.

The Third wanted to retire, and needed an active Hokage.

Kento

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Is that right?

I thought i recalled him becoming Hokage during the war. Well, not exactly an important detail. If I recall, Kakashi Gaiden happened during the end of the war. He was doing secret missions with his students I doubt Hokage would do that.

NemeBro

Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought Oro. was discovered doing his experiments when he was in his 20s? And that's when Sarutobi wanted to give the mantle over.

Minato would have either not been born yet or be a small child. No way he could have become hokage at the age. Sarutobi just kept the title for another 15-20 years,and handed it over when he was in his...what....50s?

Then, that puts Sarutobi nicely in his late 60s when he fought Oro during he Konoha invasion.

In fact, I think in the anime, when Sarutobi is doing his flash back, he mentions something about waiting another decade or two before finally finding a worthy successor. Sarutobi really didn't age well then, if I remember what he looked like at that point right. no expression

Sarutobi gave it up in his fifties most likely, he was just shy of 70 I believe when he fought Oro.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Passing over Hokage to someone else during war means allot. Let's suppose you are correct just for this example's sake. Why else would he do it? Minato is wiser? smarter? a better tactition? I cannot think of a reason that doesn't mean Minato is in atleast one way better. And Tbh i said Sarutobi has no feats of being able to counter FTG, and so far you nor Nemebro have given me one.

He was retiring. That would mean that he was getting weaker or would like to get away from the hustle of being Hokage, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Minato was overall better than him.
Though fair enough, Minato may have been better than him in some areas when he took over.

It's a teleport and a strike as far as I can recall. One with sufficient reflexes can stop his strikes. He is also limited to where a seal is and a small area close to it apparently.

The only reason we don't have feats that counter it is because we've not seen much of it in use. I mean, Minato could form a Rasengan and then teleport to hit his enemy, but it's not a feat is it? At least, I don't think it is >__>

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Simple, Minato did not surpass them.
Yeah, well as great as that might be in your head it doesn't mean anything. The fourth was the greatest Hokage of all. They teach it at Konoga academy, and the third was present. So... go figure.

Again, greatest =/= most powerful. The 4th saved the village from the Fox. Of course he would be praised as the greatest.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
None of those had those exact words said about them. They are all geniuses. But not of the Fourth's Calibur.

So now, by your need for words, Sarutobi was praised as the 'god of Shinobi,' while Minato wasn't praised as the 'god of shinobi' or something greater, and you think of him to be greater than Sarutobi?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Itachi was Anbu Captain at the age of 13. Sasuke's got nothing on him.

I said when it came to usage of techniques or rather techniques. Sasuke being able to mold Amaterasu like he did would not be better than Itachi's usage of it? He's expanded on Chidori similar to how Naruto has expanded on the Rasengan.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by Kento
stick out tongue

Yea, only Orochimaru can beat a person with the Will Of Fire, not some hax-eye Uchiha.

laughing

Sasuke's genius is overthrown by Neji.

He wanted said hax-eyes. He knows it's the only way to truly beat the will of fire stick out tongue

.

Not in part 2. Sasuke leaves Neji coughing in the dust stick out tongue

NemeBro

To illustrate the third's genius:

He was called the "God of Shinobi" for his power, the "The Professor" for his vast knowledge and innovations on Jutsu in general, he was the longest reigning Hokage in history, and was undefeated until his sacrifice against Orochimaru.

NemeBro

Neji is overrated as far as being a genius goes...Other than his admittedly impressive abilities with Jyuuken, what does he have? Most of the other "geniuses" are called such due to their masteries or at least proficiency with several forms of Shinobi combat. Plus Neji sucks.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought Oro. was discovered doing his experiments when he was in his 20s? And that's when Sarutobi wanted to give the mantle over.

He wanted to give it over quite a bit before. He wanted to give it to Orochimaru. Then he decided to give it to Minato. That's when Orochimaru stopped being discreet and was found out.

That's how I remember it.

Kento

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He wanted said hax-eyes. He knows it's the only way to truly beat the will of fire stick out tongue

.

Not in part 2. Sasuke leaves Neji coughing in the dust stick out tongue

. No, he just wanted to cheat to learn super jutsu, he knew that hax-eyes alone were no match for the will of fire.

Sasuke was handed power-up after power-up to get stronger. stick out tongue

Neji was learning clan moves that his part of the family wasn't even suppose to be learning, and without being taught.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by Kento
No, he just wanted to cheat to learn super jutsu, he knew that hax-eyes alone were no match for the will of fire.

Sasuke was handed power-up after power-up to get stronger. stick out tongue

Neji was learning clan moves that his part of the family wasn't even suppose to be learning, and without being taught.

DAAAMMMMNNNNN, you got me there stick out tongue

That's part 1. In part 2, all he does is beat his clone and refuse a piggy-back ride stick out tongue

.
Sasuke uses said power-up efficiently (for the most part) stick out tongue

. Takes a genius to use a weapon he has not used before as proficiently as he does.

Kento

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
DAAAMMMMNNNNN, you got me there stick out tongue

That's part 1. In part 2, all he does is beat his clone and refuse a piggy-back ride stick out tongue

.
Sasuke uses said power-up efficiently (for the most part) stick out tongue

. Takes a genius to use a weapon he has not used before as proficiently as he does. lol

That's only because he got no screen time just like every other character not Sasuke or Naruto. Well obviously Sasuke's a genius being best in class, stick out tongue

doesn't mean he's the genius of his generation I still say that belongs to Neji.

NemeBro

Incorrect.

That belongs to Naruto.

Being able to learn Sage Mode in a week is such a ridiculous over the top feat he might as well take the Third's title of The Professor.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by Kento
lol

That's only because he got no screen time just like every other character not Sasuke or Naruto. Well obviously Sasuke's a genius being best in class, stick out tongue

doesn't mean he's the genius of his generation I still say that belongs to Neji.

More screen-time would make no difference, and you know it stick out tongue

.

~ We've been acting gay by posting like this stick out tongue

. Ahh well, still kinda fun.

Kento

Originally posted by NemeBro
Incorrect.

That belongs to Naruto.

Being able to learn Sage Mode in a week is such a ridiculous over the top feat he might as well take the Third's title of The Professor. And yet he still can't manage a one-handed Rasengan. Kinda funny. But Naruto's whole character is suppose to be hard work trumps genius which is why he's always training non-stop it's not like it just comes naturally. Course it helps when Naruto is almost the main character, and has a demon to pull chakra from when he trains in most things...Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
More screen-time would make no difference, and you know it stick out tongue

.

~ We've been acting gay by posting like this stick out tongue

. Ahh well, still kinda fun. Well if Neji wasn't a Hyuuga it would make a difference. lol

EvilAngel

Originally posted by NemeBro
Right, because Pain TOTALLY didn't have several advantages in his fight right? Pain started the fight weakened and had prep for the fight, not even counting how the plot held Naruto's hand through the entire fight. Not a credible example. Pain's Deva Realm alone is above the level of a very powerful Jounin like Kakashi, hell, in his fight with Naruto he did most of the fighting. Where? When he thought he was some destined child of prophecy and because he possessed the Rinnegan, which I am pretty sure he said was a Divine gift. He hyped him more. I am not saying Pain is definately stronger, but to say that the Yondaime HAS to be more powerful based on one technique he has is ludicrous.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/10-11/

We can clearly see wooden tendrils of the First grappling around the Kyuubi's right legs (Both of them) and beginning to do so with its torso. Kyuubi is also visibly struggling. Make sure you are actually right before you insult my intelligence next time. Oh, and Chibaku Tensei is not an actual black hole, obviously.

One way? No, Kakashi was speaking that Naruto is the only one who can surpass the Yondaime, present tense, he did not say that Naruto will be the only one who has ever been more powerful than the Yondaime, he was speaking in terms of the present, and on limited information.

It means he not only does not need markings, no hand seals, nothing, he does it with a thought. Keep in mind this is a WEAKENED Madara, who Madara himself describes as powerless. I know he can perceive things around it, and yes, I agree he does not need to literally teleport on the mark, but in its general area.

Yeah, I proved that. Seriously, I would have hoped you would not have jumped to insulting me before even seeing my proof.

Well hence why IMO naruto beating pain was PIS. Pain isn't stronger for a number of reasons, FTG is just a damn good one.

I bet using wood element to wrestle with the god demon of fire is a great strategy. But unfortunately you're misinterpreting that image.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/16/

It seems wood element on contact has power over the 9 tails. Yamato tried to wrestle the 4 tails. Okay, Yamato is a hella lot weaker the the first, granted, but 4 tails is allot weaker than 9, AND yamato has gripped allot more of the body than the first and look what happens

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/14/

Doesn't work. You cannot physically restrain something like that. So the notion the first did is idiotic and i will question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that's true. It's retarded.

It's black, it has such suction it was ripping the earth out of the ground itself. It's a black hole. Saying it isn't is just being terminologically petty. If it makes you feel more comfortable you can call it a localized gravitational collapse jutsu. But I'm calling it a black hole, live with it erm

I just checked, he says "Only you can surpass the fourth Hokage" there's no tense to that. It's a declaritive statement. You are picking at straws if that's the arguement you're putting up.

I knew what your 'proof' would be, hence why i told you it was an idoitic notion. You've known me for how long? You still think i'd make that kind of a claim without knowing what you're on about?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He was retiring. That would mean that he was getting weaker or would like to get away from the hustle of being Hokage, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Minato was overall better than him.
Though fair enough, Minato may have been better than him in some areas when he took over.

It's a teleport and a strike as far as I can recall. One with sufficient reflexes can stop his strikes. He is also limited to where a seal is and a small area close to it apparently.

The only reason we don't have feats that counter it is because we've not seen much of it in use. I mean, Minato could form a Rasengan and then teleport to hit his enemy, but it's not a feat is it? At least, I don't think it is >__>

Again, greatest =/= most powerful. The 4th saved the village from the Fox. Of course he would be praised as the greatest.

So now, by your need for words, Sarutobi was praised as the 'god of Shinobi,' while Minato wasn't praised as the 'god of shinobi' or something greater, and you think of him to be greater than Sarutobi?

I said when it came to usage of techniques or rather techniques. Sasuke being able to mold Amaterasu like he did would not be better than Itachi's usage of it? He's expanded on Chidori similar to how Naruto has expanded on the Rasengan.

I'm sure the guy who chose to suffer in agony for all of eternity for Konoha would also retire even if it meant replacing himself with someone less fitting for the job. *cough*

Close proximity could be anything from a few feet to several meters, which is allot when it comes to battle. Sufficient reflexes? the guy can teleport with a kunai at your throat. Even if you by mircale counter it, he could just do it while you're in mid counters and lop your head off then.

What do you want? prep? That's one of the reasons it's so powerful. No one has seen or fought against anything like it. You don't survive that kind of ability.

You don't know that is why they call him the greatest. Personally, this is just how i see it. But when a serious threat comes along and someone wishes the Fourth were still alive, i'm inclined to think they'd feel safer if that person were Alive. Meaning that person is more powerful.

Impressive title. So what? He was killed by a Shinobi so his title was perhaps less deserving that it seems don't you think? I mean, you don't hear of how the god of lightning got killed by electrocution do you?

Kento

Originally posted by EvilAngel

Impressive title. So what? He was killed by a Shinobi so his title was perhaps less deserving that it seems don't you think? I mean, you don't hear of how the god of lightning got killed by electrocution do you? While I do think Minato was better, Sarutobi was called a God amongst Shinobi when he was younger, he was weakened by old age against Orochimaru. He could have killed Orochimaru back the first time they fought after all. Saru's strength during the Sound/Sand invasion holds no real value to how he was when he first got the any of his titles.

EvilAngel

Originally posted by Kento
While I do think Minato was better, Sarutobi was called a God amongst Shinobi when he was younger, he was weakened by old age against Orochimaru. He could have killed Orochimaru back the first time they fought after all. Saru's strength during the Sound/Sand invasion holds no real value to how he was when he first got the any of his titles.

I was just mocking the title itself. Afterall that is all it is.

The professor i get, understandable. But the God of Shinobi is ridiculous no matter when it was given him erm

Kento

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I was just mocking the title itself. Afterall that is all it is.

The professor i get, understandable. But the God of Shinobi is ridiculous no matter when it was given him erm

It's really no different than the Legendary Three Ninja. But really what else kinda name would Saru get? He comes along, surpasses the two strongest men from the strongest clan, and also learns every move of the village. Not much else really fits as a title. lol

dadudemon

This, I agree with. Only the Sage can be called that with any degree of accuracy. I believe he was called that because he never lost a battle/fight before. Neither did Yondaime. On top of that, Yondaime went to the grave, undefeated....so he has one up on Sarutobi.

King Kandy

Originally posted by dadudemon
This, I agree with. Only the Sage can be called that with any degree of accuracy. I believe he was called that because he never lost a battle/fight before. Neither did Yondaime. On top of that, Yondaime went to the grave, undefeated....so he has one up on Sarutobi.
Sarutobi never lost a fight either... in fact, he died the exact same way Yondaime did.

dadudemon

Originally posted by King Kandy
Sarutobi never lost a fight either... in fact, he died the exact same way Yondaime did.

Sarutobi certainly did lose the fight. He did NOT capture Oro's spirit. Yondaime certainly defeated the Fox and sealed it away.

Oro certainly survived with the loss of his arms for a few months. erm

And, I'd like to add "certainly" for good measure.

draxx_tOfU

Speaking of win/loss records, Tsunade was humiliated by Kabuto...

dayum...

dadudemon

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
Speaking of win/loss records, Tsunade was humiliated by Kabuto...

dayum...

A Tsunade that had severe mental problems and didn't really fight at all.

King Kandy

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sarutobi certainly did lose the fight. He did NOT capture Oro's spirit. Yondaime certainly defeated the Fox and sealed it away.

Oro certainly survived with the loss of his arms for a few months. erm

He put an end to the fight, and Oro had to run away with his tail between his legs after that jutsu. He never killed Oro but he did what he wanted and sealed his jutsu. He was not going for a kill there.

dadudemon

Originally posted by King Kandy
He put an end to the fight, and Oro had to run away with his tail between his legs after that jutsu. He never killed Oro but he did what he wanted and sealed his jutsu. He was not going for a kill there.

He WAS going for a kill. erm

draxx_tOfU

Originally posted by dadudemon
A Tsunade that had severe mental problems and didn't really fight at all.

indeed, a fragile psyche and all, good showing for Oro though as he couldn't use his arms and was fighting Jiraiya...

dadudemon

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
good showing for Oro though as he couldn't use his arms and was fighting a Gamabunta mounted Jiraiya...

That sounds, wrong.

draxx_tOfU

lulz...

edit...

King Kandy

Originally posted by dadudemon
He WAS going for a kill. erm

Still doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the fight, Oro was alive, the 3rd was dead, and the 3rd failed to kill/seal away Oro.

That's why that fight is counted as his only loss.

Edit - Why are you even debating this? It's not something debatable. facepalm
I guess we could say the kyuubi beat the fourth by this logic. I mean at the end of the fight, the kyuubi was alive and the fourth was dead. Death doesn't matter. Both Sarutobi and Yondaime eliminated the present threat, but failed to stop it's long term effects. Neither killed their opponents. Both died.

dadudemon

Originally posted by King Kandy
I guess we could say the kyuubi beat the fourth by this logic.

Actually, no. BTW, I've covered that already.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I mean at the end of the fight, the kyuubi was alive and the fourth was dead.

Not only was the Kyuubi defeated, he was split into two and half sealed into his son for Naruto's use (basically, a chakra slave). That's two levels of defeat.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Death doesn't matter. Both Sarutobi and Yondaime eliminated the present threat, but failed to stop it's long term effects. Neither killed their opponents. Both died.

Cept, no. no expression

Unless Madara figured out a way to pull the other half of the Kyuubi out of the Shinigami, there's really no getting back half of the Kyuubi's power. Naruto will eventually die and unless the Kyuubi's power is transferred to another jinchuriki, that Kyuubi will die with him forever. Sounds like a nice defeat, to me.

Yondaime not only defeated the present threat, he subjugated it. Oro remained alive and became just as much of a threat, after switching bodies just a little time later whereas Sarutobi lost his life and was sent to "hell" in the process...which was Sarutobi's goal FOR Oro. I'd say Oro won that fight fairly severely and Sarutobi only temporarily disarmed Oro. (lol, I'm sooooo funny. no expression

)

There's a reason they say Sarutobi's only defeat was against Oro.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I'm sure the guy who chose to suffer in agony for all of eternity for Konoha would also retire even if it meant replacing himself with someone less fitting for the job. *cough*

Like I said earlier, Minato would have been better in some areas, but it doesn't necessarily have to be strength. It could or could not have been. Hokage isn't just about who is the strongest to protect the village (anyone with substantial strength could protect the village); they have to negotiate and keep peace, organize missions, oversee civilian matters, etc.
Do you honestly think that none of these matters played no part in Sarutobi's decision to step down?

Sarutobi would have been less fitting, sure, because he was aging. Tsunade was in a coma and was not fit to be Hokage. Does that however, automatically mean that Danzo was stronger than her?

I don't even know why we're debating this >__>. I've already agreed that the old Sarutobi was below Minato.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Close proximity could be anything from a few feet to several meters, which is allot when it comes to battle. Sufficient reflexes? the guy can teleport with a kunai at your throat. Even if you by mircale counter it, he could just do it while you're in mid counters and lop your head off then.

We've only seen it to be a few feet. It's a reverse summon of sorts. Why a summon in normal circumstances, would be several metres away from the seal is beyond me.

What if someone like Madara is below the ground? How would Minato use FTG in that situation? What if someone like Sarutobi uses Taju/Kage bunshin no jutsu? Minato has no way of knowing which is the real one. Does he somehow use FTG on all of them? What if Raikage moves out of the way? He's fast enough, and he wouldn't be surprised by Minato's appearance like that ninja was.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
What do you want? prep? That's one of the reasons it's so powerful. No one has seen or fought against anything like it. You don't survive that kind of ability.

We haven't seen much of it in use, hence Kishi hasn't revealed a weakness. I mean, I may be grasping at straws, but Kishi isn't the type of writer to make up very powerful moves that can be effective in any and every situation, and have no drawbacks whatsoever.
Susano'o is very taxing, Chibaku Tensei can be escaped with sufficient force, Kirin can be blocked by a powerful defence, Tsukiyomi can be broken out of, Shinra Tensei has a lag, Mizukage's acid can be dodged, Gaara's defence can be broken etc.

Also, Sarutobi would know about the jutsu.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
You don't know that is why they call him the greatest.

Neither do you erm

. My perspective is that he was the village's greatest hero and thus praised as the greatest hokage.

Also, could you tell me the chapter where the teach about Minato? For the life of me, I cannot remember that part.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Impressive title. So what? He was killed by a Shinobi so his title was perhaps less deserving that it seems don't you think? I mean, you don't hear of how the god of lightning got killed by electrocution do you?

I was trying to make a point no expression

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by Kento
And yet he still can't manage a one-handed Rasengan. Kinda funny. But Naruto's whole character is suppose to be hard work trumps genius which is why he's always training non-stop it's not like it just comes naturally. Course it helps when Naruto is almost the main character, and has a demon to pull chakra from when he trains in most things...

Well if Neji wasn't a Hyuuga it would make a difference. lol

He probably could. Forming it with two hands or with clones is just how he is used to forming it erm

.
Sasuke uses only his left hand for his chidori, and yet he could use his right.

So as he is a Hyuuga, more screen-time would not make a difference like I said stick out tongue

?

Originally posted by dadudemon
This, I agree with. Only the Sage can be called that with any degree of accuracy. I believe he was called that because he never lost a battle/fight before. Neither did Yondaime. On top of that, Yondaime went to the grave, undefeated....so he has one up on Sarutobi.

He was called that as he was incredibly strong during his youth...but by EA's logic and need for specific words, Minato couldn't possibly be as good as Sarutobi as those exact words (god of shinobi) weren't used for him.

I mean, someone like Sakumo Hatake (can't believe I forgot about him) or Hiruzen or perhaps Orochimaru not a genius on the level of Minato just because the words 'once in a decade genius' were not used? Had Sakumo not committed suicide, he most likely would have become Hokage.

Sarutobi remained undefeated for a much longer time, so he has one up on Minato in that regard.
Also, I don't think it was mentioned that Minato was undefeated. Meh, I don't remember.

EvilAngel

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Like I said earlier, Minato would have been better in some areas, but it doesn't necessarily have to be strength. It could or could not have been. Hokage isn't just about who is the strongest to protect the village (anyone with substantial strength could protect the village); they have to negotiate and keep peace, organize missions, oversee civilian matters, etc.
Do you honestly think that none of these matters played no part in Sarutobi's decision to step down?

Sarutobi would have been less fitting, sure, because he was aging. Tsunade was in a coma and was not fit to be Hokage. Does that however, automatically mean that Danzo was stronger than her?

I don't even know why we're debating this >__>. I've already agreed that the old Sarutobi was below Minato.

We've only seen it to be a few feet. It's a reverse summon of sorts. Why a summon in normal circumstances, would be several metres away from the seal is beyond me.

What if someone like Madara is below the ground? How would Minato use FTG in that situation? What if someone like Sarutobi uses Taju/Kage bunshin no jutsu? Minato has no way of knowing which is the real one. Does he somehow use FTG on all of them? What if Raikage moves out of the way? He's fast enough, and he wouldn't be surprised by Minato's appearance like that ninja was.

We haven't seen much of it in use, hence Kishi hasn't revealed a weakness. I mean, I may be grasping at straws, but Kishi isn't the type of writer to make up very powerful moves that can be effective in any and every situation, and have no drawbacks whatsoever.
Susano'o is very taxing, Chibaku Tensei can be escaped with sufficient force, Kirin can be blocked by a powerful defence, Tsukiyomi can be broken out of, Shinra Tensei has a lag, Mizukage's acid can be dodged, Gaara's defence can be broken etc.

Also, Sarutobi would know about the jutsu.

Neither do you erm

. I too think that that title may have been a little far-fetched. "Strongest Shinobi" would have been more fitting.

According to you, none of the geniuses that came before or after Minato were of his calibre as those exact words (once in a decade genius) were never used for them. So how could Minato be above a prime Sarutobi who was called a 'god of shinobi' when Minato was never praised as such or even something better?

It is also about diplomacy true. However it is stated in the manga and anime that to be the Hokage means you are the strongest in the village. Look at the Raikage, he's hardly diplomatic, and he sacrificed an arm to attack when in a rage. Hardly a brilliant mind, but he's damn strong, so he's the Raikage.

I think all the hints throughout the series and references to the legendary Fourth hokage are there to tell us he is the strongest Ninja in the known history of Naruto.

Because Sarutobi wasn't Old when he stepped down. He wasn't young, but he wasn't an Old man.

Fair enough, we haven't seen him move anywhere that isn't right next to someone, but so what? It's still an absurdly powerful Technique

Well, since his movement through that jutsu is instant, he could only use that jutsu to avoid getting caught. I'm sure the jutsu he used to wipe out 50 men instantly in the chapter we saw would have no trouble with clones. Infact that is the worst thing you could do against the fourth since it divides your chakra among each clone. For some reason i do not believe the Raikage can dodge instant speed. You can't dodge what you don't see coming, fact.

We haven't seen a drawback, that's exactly why i rate it so highly. There is no known drawback to it, it's silent, invisible, instant, it doesn't even use chakra. It's utterly broken.

I never said i did. I just said there's no point you jumping up and down insisting it's because he stopped the fox. So did the first, yet it's the fourth whose praised as the Greatest Hokage. The only logical reason would be he's the strongest.

My Internets playing up tonight so i can't look it up, sorry =s

Ugh, he was, Sarutobi was a Hokage, correct?
The fourth is called the Greatest Hokage!
By your own logic(of better titles anyway) Namikaze > Sarutobi

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He was called that as he was incredibly strong during his youth...but by EA's logic and need for specific words, Minato couldn't possibly be as good as Sarutobi as those exact words (god of shinobi) weren't used for him.

I mean, someone like Sakumo Hatake (can't believe I forgot about him) or Hiruzen or perhaps Orochimaru not a genius on the level of Minato just because the words 'once in a decade genius' were not used? Had Sakumo not committed suicide, he most likely would have become Hokage.

Sarutobi remained undefeated for a much longer time, so he has one up on Minato in that regard.
Also, I don't think it was mentioned that Minato was undefeated. Meh, I don't remember.

Wrong see above. Titles don't mean anything. But when one person among four is constantly emphasised to be the strongest, it makes sense he is. Since he has such a broken jutsu it then isn't ridicilous to see no one has yet to appear who has shown potential to counter said ability.

When a legendary sannin, someone on the same level as Oroachimaru who killed the third, talks about someone like Jiraiya does for the fourth it means allot. He isn't a braggart who would go on and on because it was his student. Even Tsunade seems to have enourmous respect for the fourth.

Even the little bits we know about the Fourth paint the picture he was just something else.
- Defeated armies alone.
- Created a jutsu using only and taking Shape manipulation to the Ultimate level
- Sage like advice
- Fourth Hokage at a young age, succeeding the Third before his death, the man who studied under 2 Hokages.
- Respected deeply by everyone who knew him
- Created a space/time jutsu

etc
etc

Kento

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He probably could. Forming it with two hands or with clones is just how he is used to forming it erm

.
Sasuke uses only his left hand for his chidori, and yet he could use his right.

So as he is a Hyuuga, more screen-time would not make a difference like I said stick out tongue

?

He was called that as he was incredibly strong during his youth...but by EA's logic and need for specific words, Minato couldn't possibly be as good as Sarutobi as those exact words (god of shinobi) weren't used for him.

Had Sakumo not committed suicide, he most likely would have become Hokage.
I think it's more with Naruto still isn't very good at chakra control because he has no need to be when he's got so much to spare, Jiraiya never bothered to teach him control when we seen him train because he didn't see the point, so I doubt he would have done it in those three years.
If he couldn't use it with both hands then he wouldn't be much of a genius. stick out tongue

Well I want to see Neji combine his Hyuuga fighting style and his two elements he has mastered then we'll see his real power to beat Sasuke. Ao will break the Byakugan getting downplayed, and then Neji shall make his move and break the Hyuuga's being downplayed. stick out tongue

Ah but Sarutobi was never said to have a flee on sight order from whole armies. Not that they listened apparently or Minato wouldn't have had the few remaining Konoha ninja left throw Kunai so he could just kill them all at once but still.

Sakumo was considered as strong as the Sannin, while Minato was younger, and stronger than the Sannin so I don't know. It's possible though.

NemeBro

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Well hence why IMO naruto beating pain was PIS. Pain isn't stronger for a number of reasons, FTG is just a damn good one.

I bet using wood element to wrestle with the god demon of fire is a great strategy. But unfortunately you're misinterpreting that image.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/16/

It seems wood element on contact has power over the 9 tails. Yamato tried to wrestle the 4 tails. Okay, Yamato is a hella lot weaker the the first, granted, but 4 tails is allot weaker than 9, AND yamato has gripped allot more of the body than the first and look what happens

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/14/

Doesn't work. You cannot physically restrain something like that. So the notion the first did is idiotic and i will question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that's true. It's retarded.

It's black, it has such suction it was ripping the earth out of the ground itself. It's a black hole. Saying it isn't is just being terminologically petty. If it makes you feel more comfortable you can call it a localized gravitational collapse jutsu. But I'm calling it a black hole, live with it erm

I just checked, he says "Only you can surpass the fourth Hokage" there's no tense to that. It's a declaritive statement. You are picking at straws if that's the arguement you're putting up.

I knew what your 'proof' would be, hence why i told you it was an idoitic notion. You've known me for how long? You still think i'd make that kind of a claim without knowing what you're on about? 1. Then why bring up Pain losing to Naruto? FTG is an advantage, yes, as is Pain's Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, his six bodies, powerful summons, etc. Note I am not saying Pain is definately superior, but based on what we have seen, he is, there is not enough known about Minato to say either way.

2. Considering it was working, yes, it is.

Lol, are you serious? You insult my intelligence and then claim I am misinterpreting a scan and post this garbage?

The first scan, lol, he's not even draining him, he destroyed the clone. And even assuming it was draining him, it was clearly not a normal Wood Release jutsu, compared to the plain Jane roots that were ensnaring the Kyuubi. As for the second scan, uh-huh, it was not the Wood Release that was draining him hun, Yamato had to physically touch him, and that little chord of chakra coming from Naruto's hand was touching him. Not the Wood Release.

You have no idea how little I could give a shit about what Yamato cannot do. The difference between the Shodaime and Yamato is not even worth noting, and Yamato being unable to do so with those puny wooden blocks does not remove the Shodaime's feat of ensnaring the Kyuubi, which happened, on-panel, you can't refute it, please stop. Question the intellect of what I..."Think"...Is true? Oh no, my dear, you misunderstand me. I am not saying this is what I "think," I am saying this is what happened ON-PANEL. Trying to downplay the feat just to hype the Fourth above the First is not gonna work, you question my intelligence for claiming something that happened? Lol.

You stated it like it being a black hole was supposed to actually mean something, that is why I argued against it. Not that it matters, it does not take away the Shodaime's feat. erm

Oh, and Naruto was not very deep within the earth surrounding Chibaku Tensei, if I recall right.

Okay, I was wrong, but there is a tense. It is future tense. no expression

"Only you can surpass the Fourth Hokage" is a declarative statement, true, and it is one that speaks of the future...Which obviously does not count those not living (Or thought to be dead), also Kakashi is in fact a fallible character, although that statement is more credible than most people's would be I admit.

Only I'm right and you're wrong. stick out tongue

NemeBro

Oh, and to emphasize Madara's power.

The Tsuchikage, who did not know Madara was weakened, asked why he was going through such lengths for his plans, noting that a man of his power should be able to accomplish his plans without a hitch, which implies at his full strength he would be able to easily execute his plans.

EvilAngel

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Then why bring up Pain losing to Naruto? FTG is an advantage, yes, as is Pain's Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, his six bodies, powerful summons, etc. Note I am not saying Pain is definately superior, but based on what we have seen, he is, there is not enough known about Minato to say either way.

2. Considering it was working, yes, it is.

Lol, are you serious? You insult my intelligence and then claim I am misinterpreting a scan and post this garbage?

The first scan, lol, he's not even draining him, he destroyed the clone. And even assuming it was draining him, it was clearly not a normal Wood Release jutsu, compared to the plain Jane roots that were ensnaring the Kyuubi. As for the second scan, uh-huh, it was not the Wood Release that was draining him hun, Yamato had to physically touch him, and that little chord of chakra coming from Naruto's hand was touching him. Not the Wood Release.

You have no idea how little I could give a shit about what Yamato cannot do. The difference between the Shodaime and Yamato is not even worth noting, and Yamato being unable to do so with those puny wooden blocks does not remove the Shodaime's feat of ensnaring the Kyuubi, which happened, on-panel, you can't refute it, please stop. Question the intellect of what I..."Think"...Is true? Oh no, my dear, you misunderstand me. I am not saying this is what I "think," I am saying this is what happened ON-PANEL. Trying to downplay the feat just to hype the Fourth above the First is not gonna work, you question my intelligence for claiming something that happened? Lol.

You stated it like it being a black hole was supposed to actually mean something, that is why I argued against it. Not that it matters, it does not take away the Shodaime's feat. erm

Oh, and Naruto was not very deep within the earth surrounding Chibaku Tensei, if I recall right.

Okay, I was wrong, but there is a tense. It is future tense. no expression

2. I think you need to calm down. Respond to me like this again, i won't respond to you.

First scan if you read the SFX says Kyuubi's chakra dissipates. Whether or not the clone was destroyed, we were told specifically the only reason Yamato was chosen to temp for Kakashi was because only he has the ability to surpress the Kyuubi's chakra.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/16/

In my third scan i posted Naruto in 4 tails breaking out of Yamato's wood hold. Backing my reasoning that using wood element to physically restrain the Kyuubi doesn't seem like a feasable option. Instead i shown scans and statements that point towards there being a level of control that wood element seems to have over the Bijuu's. All of this is perfectly reasonable.

The scan you provided does not clearly shown anything. All we see is a battle with Madara, Shodaime, and Kyuubi. Yes Kyuubi's left rear leg has wood around it, but there's no way of knowing if that is phyiscally restraining him or not. From other feats that we have seen it seems (atleast from my point of veiw) unlikely that a tree would be any problem to the Kyuubi. Since so far we have seen it pull itself out of a Jutsu that torn the earth from the world, drove it's hands deep in the ground to attack from underneath, and at two tails demolish an entire area of a forest from a single punch.

NemeBro

Originally posted by EvilAngel
2. I think you need to calm down. Respond to me like this again, i won't respond to you.

First scan if you read the SFX says Kyuubi's chakra dissipates. Whether or not the clone was destroyed, we were told specifically the only reason Yamato was chosen to temp for Kakashi was because only he has the ability to surpress the Kyuubi's chakra.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/16/

In my third scan i posted Naruto in 4 tails breaking out of Yamato's wood hold. Backing my reasoning that using wood element to physically restrain the Kyuubi doesn't seem like a feasable option. Instead i shown scans and statements that point towards there being a level of control that wood element seems to have over the Bijuu's. All of this is perfectly reasonable.

The scan you provided does not clearly shown anything. All we see is a battle with Madara, Shodaime, and Kyuubi. Yes Kyuubi's left rear leg has wood around it, but there's no way of knowing if that is phyiscally restraining him or not. From other feats that we have seen it seems (atleast from my point of veiw) unlikely that a tree would be any problem to the Kyuubi. Since so far we have seen it pull itself out of a Jutsu that torn the earth from the world, drove it's hands deep in the ground to attack from underneath, and at two tails demolish an entire area of a forest from a single punch. ...Excuse me? You directly insult me and my intelligence and when I get angry you tell me to calm down? How's about this, don't insult me over a debate about Naruto, kay? I will admit however that I still snapped at you, and I apologise for it.

I know, because of the seal on Yamato's hand that was able to drain the chakra of the Kyuubi, I am not completel sure what your scans are intending to disprove. I am well aware of why Yamato was assigned Kakashi's temp. Also, whether the jutsu he used when Naruto's clone went Kyuubi drained him or not, it was clearly not a normal Wood Release like the roots ensnaring Kyuubi.

Just because Yamato could not do it does not mean the Shodaime cannot, that would be like saying because Killer Bee took a punch from Sasuke he can take a punch from Hulk. Your scans did not outright state that Wood Release has a level of control over the Biju, as a matter of fact, the technique used to subdue the Kyuubi has a name, "Hokage-style Sixty-year-old Technique - Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-bringing Hands" (Why the name is so long is anyone's guess), that was what subdued Kyuubi, Wood Release has never been stated to have a degree of control over Biju, in fact, in the very scans you posted Yamato attributes it to Naruto's pendant.

Rear right leg has one tendril around it, the front right has two wrapping, and another is beginning to wrap around its torso, and Kyuubi is clearly struggling. Also, you are thinking of Wood Release jutsus as mere "trees," that is not true, in the same way Haku's jutsus were not merely ice, or Kimimaro's jutsus not merely bones, they are infused with chakra, granting them strength beyond a mere tree.

Naija boy

Minato has shown absolutely nothing to indicate he can defeat pain. Hearsay doesnt cut it at all. Its even highly debatable as to whether he is the strongest hokage. Further considering Kakashis limited scope of knowledge and experiences, him saying only naruto can surpass minato holds little weight.

dadudemon

Originally posted by NemeBro
Wood Release has never been stated to have a degree of control over Biju, in fact, in the very scans you posted Yamato attributes it to Naruto's pendant.

This is correct.

I'm not quite sure what is being argued at this point, but Yamato had control over the Kyubi chakra until the necklace broke in his fight with Pain. Now, Naruto has to control it on his own with out Yamato's help...unless they can find a special crystal that responds to the "first's" biju chakra controlling jutsu.

EvilAngel

Originally posted by NemeBro
...Excuse me? You directly insult me and my intelligence and when I get angry you tell me to calm down? How's about this, don't insult me over a debate about Naruto, kay? I will admit however that I still snapped at you, and I apologise for it.

I know, because of the seal on Yamato's hand that was able to drain the chakra of the Kyuubi, I am not completel sure what your scans are intending to disprove. I am well aware of why Yamato was assigned Kakashi's temp. Also, whether the jutsu he used when Naruto's clone went Kyuubi drained him or not, it was clearly not a normal Wood Release like the roots ensnaring Kyuubi.

Just because Yamato could not do it does not mean the Shodaime cannot, that would be like saying because Killer Bee took a punch from Sasuke he can take a punch from Hulk. Your scans did not outright state that Wood Release has a level of control over the Biju, as a matter of fact, the technique used to subdue the Kyuubi has a name, "Hokage-style Sixty-year-old Technique - Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-bringing Hands" (Why the name is so long is anyone's guess), that was what subdued Kyuubi, Wood Release has never been stated to have a degree of control over Biju, in fact, in the very scans you posted Yamato attributes it to Naruto's pendant.

Rear right leg has one tendril around it, the front right has two wrapping, and another is beginning to wrap around its torso, and Kyuubi is clearly struggling. Also, you are thinking of Wood Release jutsus as mere "trees," that is not true, in the same way Haku's jutsus were not merely ice, or Kimimaro's jutsus not merely bones, they are infused with chakra, granting them strength beyond a mere tree.

I directly questioned the intelligence of anyone who would make a bold accusation with as little backing as you gave. Yes. However that was not personal to you. Your response was personalised towards me. That is what i will not tolerate Nemebro.

I am also getting bored with your argument.

Provide proof Shodaime's wood jutsu possess more power than Chibaku Tensei. Kyuubi 8 tails ripped itself out of this technique which to-date boasts the greatest holding power.

Your scan is worthless. It is a single image that from your interpretation showing the Shodaime ensnaring the Kyuubi. However i have provided scans of this being done on a much weaker Kyuubi and it failing. Also note Yamato's strength to the Shodaime vs 4 tails strength to the 9 cannot be measured reasonably, so there is no logic in claiming Shodaime's so much more powerful his works even though Yamato's didn't.

To be exact

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/10-11/
Is comparable to
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/10/
As in both images one might interprete the Kyuubi is being ensared.

When the result is
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/14/

You cannot prove the Kyuubi was unable to break out of it.

You claim it's struggling. What part of the raging Fox demon to you indicates it's in any way struggling? Either way your answer is down to interpretation. Not fact, you don't have enough resources to prove what you're trying to claim.

The scan i provided with Yamato talking about his power states something your seem to have overlooked

"In Konoha I'm the only one who can use it because i was compatible with Shodai-sama's cells. The power to control the Kyuubi's Chakra. I can't use it as well as the original Shodai-sama since I'm just an experimental copy"

You are correct when you say Yamato can only do this with that necklace. But not the Shodaime. Why?

Because it is said he had several Bijuu's as pets. Now unless they each themselves had one of these necklaces (unlikely) it's not a requirement for this power. The necklace is only an amplifier.

I accept it is not specifically stated it is the wood element jutsu that allows the control over the Bijuu's but the only two none-sharingan weilders to display this power have said element. And in the training for the Rasen-shuriken in the anime you can clearly see Yamato's wood jutsu dissipate the Kyuubi's chakra. Yes the clone was destroyed but after the chakra was dealt with.