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Thanos has been resurrected after Drax ripped his heart from his chest and he is after the ultimate power, again.

Reed and Victor deside to cooperate and stop the purple menace. Can they do it? They get few days preparation and Thanos is not aware of their plans ...

Reed Richards has outsmarted / won Galactus several times and Galactus is said to be stronger than Celestial and has cosmic awareness.

On the other hand Doctor Doom has punked The Beyonder who even challenges the Eternity ...

Who wins?

Thanos constantly has Doom under surveillance.

Thanos wins.

Doom and Richards

Thanos easy.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Doom and Richards How so? Thanos has proven time and time again no one beats him when he sets his mind to something.

http://xrayvision.today.com/files/2009/05/squirrel-girl-beats-thanos.jpg

Ironically, that actually did get retconned as a clone...

Thanos

Originally posted by Lostedge
They get few days preparation and Thanos is not aware of their plans ...


Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos wins.
Originally posted by Nihilist
Thanos easy.
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Thanos
Yeah OK

Originally posted by Mindset
http://xrayvision.today.com/files/2009/05/squirrel-girl-beats-thanos.jpg

God I hate squirrel girl.
Thanos is my 2nd fav character

Originally posted by King Kandy
Ironically, that actually did get retconned as a clone... I'll believe it when I see it.

Doom and Richards. Dont see why they couldnt replicate whatever aura Drax used to kill Thanos the first time.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Ironically, that actually did get retconned as a clone...

Starlin.

Thanos

Originally posted by Mindset
http://xrayvision.today.com/files/2009/05/squirrel-girl-beats-thanos.jpg Not canon to the real Thanos.Originally posted by Priest
Yeah OK What happened to Doom in marvel's the end? What happened to doom in ig or infinity war? You think reed tips the scales that much?Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Starlin. Is awesome.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'll believe it when I see it.
It was in that she-hulk comic. Written by the same guy who did the squirrel girl comic. Give me a second and i'll get it.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=428398&highlight=title%3A(retconned)

Richards and Doom. Hard to imagine them being outsmarted if they work together.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What happened to doom in ig or infinity war? remember how Doom outsmarted both Magus, and Kang?
He would have had the IG if not for Galactus and Eternity convincing Living Tribunal to give back its powers. If tribunal had delayed like 10 secs Doom would have gotten the IG. And im not being biased, Thanos is my second fav character while Doom is 5th.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Richards and Doom. Hard to imagine them being outsmarted if they work together.

Hard to imagine them working together,

And Doom already outsmarted Doom before, and outsmart abstract before breakfest.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Hard to imagine them working together,

And Doom already outsmarted Doom before, and outsmart abstract before breakfest.

but for the purposes of the thread, they are working together.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
And Doom already outsmarted Doom before, and outsmart abstract before breakfest. Huh?

Originally posted by Mindset
Huh?
I think the first "Doom" was supposed to be "Thanos".

Thanos didn't outsmart Doom though.

Originally posted by Mindset
Thanos didn't outsmart Doom though.
Doom didn't outsmart Thanos either. But Thanos did spy on Doom undetected so I think that could have been what he was referring to.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Doom didn't outsmart Thanos either.

Uh, ok?

Watching Doom isn't outsmarting him either.

I'm not sure what he's talking about.

Doom has a time machine, he wins.

Originally posted by Priest
Doom has a time machine, he wins.
Psh, what's he going to do with it, kill Thanos's parents? Who are really, really tough as well?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Psh, what's he going to do with it, kill Thanos's parents? Who are really, really tough as well?

Well, you see the difference here is that Doom is much smarter than you and I'm sure he will think of something. The possibilities with time travelling is just too much.

Thanos IMO is smarter than Doom by himself but not both Richards and Doom

Originally posted by Placidity
The possibilities with time travelling is just too much.

I absolutely hate time travelling I mean seriously what's the point, you could make everything unhappen just go to the point where bad guy X is born and kill him but then if someone in a comic really says this (Osbourne to Doom in Dark Avengers) the guy who could do it comes with something like "Nah you can't do it all the time it would be too dangerous."

Thanos. having Doom under CCTV surveillance suggests, at the very least that he considers Doom to be significant to his plans and schemes.

Given that, it's sensible to suppose that Thanos has a plan for dealing with Doom, should the need arise. Reed won't be as much of a problem as Doom, imo. so, if Thanos comes to play and finds Doom and Richards together, he'll be ready for at least one of them. Which should give him all the 'prep' he requires to put them both down.


Only way the team win, imo, is if they destroy him by indirect means, never letting him know that they're after him.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
I absolutely hate time travelling I mean seriously what's the point, you could make everything unhappen just go to the point where bad guy X is born and kill him but then if someone in a comic really says this (Osbourne to Doom in Dark Avengers) the guy who could do it comes with something like "Nah you can't do it all the time it would be too dangerous."
if we surmise that Marvel subscribes to the "parallel universes" theory, then time travel is moot. Reed & Doom will not defeat this particular Thanos by going back in time, they will merely be affecting a branching off of a Universe.

Not if they use the Doomlocks!

Originally posted by galactusischere
remember how Doom outsmarted both Magus, and Kang?
He would have had the IG if not for Galactus and Eternity convincing Living Tribunal to give back its powers. If tribunal had delayed like 10 secs Doom would have gotten the IG. And im not being biased, Thanos is my second fav character while Doom is 5th. Yes, I remember both he and Kang waiting for their moment to screw the other one over. Magus was completely unaware of Doom and Kang so they had the advantage over him.

Magus still got the ig though I might add. Magus was aware of Thanos as his opposition and he still duped him with a bogus reality gem.

Originally posted by Mindset
Uh, ok?

Watching Doom isn't outsmarting him either.

I'm not sure what he's talking about. Doom was stupid enough to fail miserably against Ak while Thanos actually saved him from his fate. Thanos has always been better than Doom.Originally posted by Priest
Doom has a time machine, he wins. Thanos also constructed one before. The thing is if Kronos the god of time struggled with Thanos don't act like any old time machine will give Doom an advantage over Thanos.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Y
Doom was stupid enough to fail miserably against Ak while Thanos actually saved him from his fate. Thanos has always been better than Doom. That's not outsmarting Doom.

There were also many outside circumstances that gave Thanos the advantage in his plans over Doom.

Originally posted by janus77
if we surmise that Marvel subscribes to the "parallel universes" theory, then time travel is moot. Reed & Doom will not defeat this particular Thanos by going back in time, they will merely be affecting a branching off of a Universe. That's not always the case, changes can be made and it will not branch off into a new timeline, they showed this in a F4 comic.

Originally posted by Mindset
That's not outsmarting Doom.

There were also many outside circumstances that gave Thanos the advantage in his plans over Doom. That's achieving his goal while Doom completely failed. That's a direct comparison when both were after pretty much the same thing. Thanos is better than Doom.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The thing is if Kronos the god of time struggled with Thanos don't act like any old time machine will give Doom an advantage over Thanos.

When did Chronos struggle against Thanos?

Originally posted by K Von Doom
When did Chronos struggle against Thanos? When he got the cosmic cube. He created Drax to destroy him. Why not just go back in time if it were that easy?

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's achieving his goal while Doom completely failed. That's a direct comparison when both were after pretty much the same thing. Thanos is better than Doom. It's not a direct comparison when Thanos had help, previous knowledge, and was able to view the events from an outside perspective.

Even if all things were even, it is still not outsmarting Doom, do you know what the word 'outsmart' means?

It's not like Thanos and Doom were fighting each other.

Originally posted by Mindset
It's not a direct comparison when Thanos had help, previous knowledge, and was able to view the events from an outside perspective.

Even if all things were even, it is still not outsmarting Doom, do you know what the word 'outsmart' means?

It's not like Thanos and Doom were fighting each other. When did I say he outsmarted Doom? I said he was better than Doom. He is and always has been.


Both were after the same goal and Doom's plan was a colossal failure. Thanos achieved his goal. Pretty cut and dry.


Thanos would absolutely destroy Doom in a fight. That's hardly fair for Victor Von Doom.

Originally posted by quanchi112
When did I say he outsmarted Doom? I said he was better than Doom. He is and always has been.


Both were after the same goal and Doom's plan was a colossal failure. Thanos achieved his goal. Pretty cut and dry.


Thanos would absolutely destroy Doom in a fight. That's hardly fair for Victor Von Doom. If you weren't saying Thanos outsmarted Doom then you shouldn't have ever quoted and replied to my posts...

Thanos made Doom look inferior by far.

Originally posted by Mindset
If you weren't saying Thanos outsmarted Doom then you shouldn't have ever quoted and replied to my posts... I never said he outsmarted him. Doom was stupid enough to put himself in position to be killed over and over again. You could say he outsmarted himself.Originally posted by Nihilist
Thanos made Doom look inferior by far. Agreed. It looked like the gap between a profession and an amateur imo.

Thanos fans can be so blind. "But Thanos watches Doom!" Duh, read the initial post. Thanos isnt aware of their plans. Do you think he really checks on Doom every day while he has so many actual enemies out there? In a few days, Doom alone could come up with a dozen ways to win this. Adding reed in just assures his win. For one he could simply siphon the power from someone stronger than himself to be more of a match. Hell, he could channel Zom if he had to (he is supposedly like the 2nd more powerful magician on earth, and doesnt have Strange's restraint). And again, they could replicated Drax's power to shred Thanos. I enjoy a good Thanos story more than most, but damn his fans can be blind. (same folks who argued he could beat Superman 1 million and ignore him getting trashed by Gamora)

Originally posted by quanchi112
When he got the cosmic cube. He created Drax to destroy him. Why not just go back in time if it were that easy?

I think Chronos would have less trouble killing Thanos than Drax did

Originally posted by quanchi112
When did I say he outsmarted Doom? I said he was better than Doom. He is and always has been.

Both were after the same goal and Doom's plan was a colossal failure. Thanos achieved his goal. Pretty cut and dry.

Thanos would absolutely destroy Doom in a fight. That's hardly fair for Victor Von Doom. Both were after Magus during Infinity War also and Thanos ended up the colossal failure despite having the help of the Infinity Watch. But that was more an effect of Magus actually having complete surveillance on Thanos the entire time and not suspecting Doom at all.

Which is pretty much the exact same thing that happened with Akhenaten where Akhenaten kept tabs on Doom the complete time and not suspecting Thanos at all. Except for the fact that once again, Thanos had the help of the Defenders and that THOTU meant for Thanos to obtain that power.

Beyonder and Galactus would both destroy Thanos in a fight. Doom's ability to overcome physical odds far surpasses Thanos'. Reed and Doom have worked together only once, to save Kitty Pryde's life. So they have actually done it despite people wondering whether or not they can. It even involved Reed calling out a mistake of Doom's.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Both were after Magus during Infinity War also and Thanos ended up the colossal failure despite having the help of the Infinity Watch. But that was more an effect of Magus actually having complete surveillance on Thanos the entire time and not suspecting Doom at all.

Which is pretty much the exact same thing that happened with Akhenaten where Akhenaten kept tabs on Doom the complete time and not suspecting Thanos at all. Except for the fact that once again, Thanos had the help of the Defenders and that THOTU meant for Thanos to obtain that power.

Beyonder and Galactus would both destroy Thanos in a fight. Doom's ability to overcome physical odds far surpasses Thanos'. Reed and Doom have worked together only once, to save Kitty Pryde's life. So they have actually done it despite people wondering whether or not they can. It even involved Reed calling out a mistake of Doom's. Thanos in the end was vital to Magus being defeated. Doom wasn't. Huge difference. Doom was still unsuccessful and he had Kang's assistance.


Doom's plan failed. Doom thought it would work but it was a colossal blunder. Thanos freed him from his fate. In both situations Thanos came out on top while Doom didn't.

Galactus and beyonder would also destroy Doom in a one on one fight outside the circumstances of those events.


Thanos has achieved goals Doom only dreams of ie. obtaining the ig, etc.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos in the end was vital to Magus being defeated. Doom wasn't. Huge difference. Doom was still unsuccessful and he had Kang's assistance.

Doom's plan failed. Doom thought it would work but it was a colossal blunder. Thanos freed him from his fate. In both situations Thanos came out on top while Doom didn't.

Galactus and beyonder would also destroy Doom in a one on one fight outside the circumstances of those events.

Thanos has achieved goals Doom only dreams of ie. obtaining the ig, etc. Invisible Woman was just as vital too... and so was Professor X... and a whole host of others. Does that difference mean that Doom & Reed couldn't prep against those individuals? No. So was there a point to what you just said? Not really. Doom's plan failed because Akhenaten specifically prepped for Doom and not for Thanos. The same way Magus specifically prepped for Thanos and not Doom. You can't ignore the truth in this very simple comparison, yet you keep bragging about it as if it means something.

Your continual harping on about events in Marvel Universe: The End also ignores one important plot-point: The end-result of Marvel Universe: The End was Thanos was completely duped into dooming himself to fix a cosmic flaw. Awe-inspiring. Clearly.

Akhenaten would also destroy Thanos in a one one one fight outside the circumstances of those events.

The Illuminati obtained the IG without an Infinity Well or an upgrade by Death too. Whoopdie-doo. In case you forgot, Doom acquired power well beyond the IG.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Invisible Woman was just as vital too... and so was Professor X... and a whole host of others. Does that difference mean that Doom & Reed couldn't prep against those individuals? No. So was there a point to what you just said? Not really. Doom's plan failed because Akhenaten specifically prepped for Doom and not for Thanos. The same way Magus specifically prepped for Thanos and not Doom. You can't ignore the truth in this very simple comparison, yet you keep bragging about it as if it means something.

Your continual harping on about events in Marvel Universe: The End also ignores one important plot-point: The end-result of Marvel Universe: The End was Thanos was completely duped into dooming himself to fix a cosmic flaw. Awe-inspiring. Clearly.

Akhenaten would also destroy Thanos in a one one one fight outside the circumstances of those events.

The Illuminati obtained the IG without an Infinity Well or an upgrade by Death too. Whoopdie-doo. In case you forgot, Doom acquired power well beyond the IG. Yes, but like usual Thanos and Warock were the major players here not Reed or Reed. Doom went off on his own quest for power and was unsuccessful against the Magus despite being off the radar.

I already said I understood that, but you don't seem to understand Doom failed. Thanos didn't. Huge point, friend.

Yes, Thanos was tricked by the supreme being, saved the friggin' day, survived while amping his power and restoring his armada. Thanos turned a negative into a positive.

How did Doom fare with the beyonder's power anyways? Could he handle it?

Originally posted by quanchi112
How did Doom fare with the beyonder's power anyways? Could he handle it?

How Doom handled the end prize has little to do with his capability of obtaining it. Else, how did Thanos handle becoming Eternity?

Originally posted by K Von Doom
How Doom handled the end prize has little to do with his capability of obtaining it. Else, how did Thanos handle becoming Eternity? He lost the power due to a lame plot device.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
How Doom handled the end prize has little to do with his capability of obtaining it. Else, how did Thanos handle becoming Eternity? Thanos subconsciously defeated himself after he destroyed his opposition. Doom just couldn't handle it. Thanos is just better than him in almost every conceivable way.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your continual harping on about events in Marvel Universe: The End also ignores one important plot-point: The end-result of Marvel Universe: The End was Thanos was completely duped into dooming himself to fix a cosmic flaw. Awe-inspiring. Clearly.
He "doomed himself"? No he didn't, he not only survived but came out stronger than before.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The Illuminati obtained the IG without an Infinity Well or an upgrade by Death too. Whoopdie-doo. In case you forgot, Doom acquired power well beyond the IG.
Doom never acquired anything on the level of the IG. He got like, half a cosmic cube's worth of power from Beyonder.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I already said I understood that, but you don't seem to understand Doom failed. Thanos didn't. Huge point, friend.It's not huge because it has nothing to do with Doom's ability to prep against Thanos. You use this scene to compare how Thanos prepped against Akhenaten and how Doom prepped against Akhenaten. You keep failing to admit that Akhenaten prepped for Doom and didn't prep for Thanos. Not only that, TOAA meant for Thanos to gain THOTU. Hence, there's no point in using those events to prove anything. Huge point, friend.
Originally posted by quanchi112
How did Doom fare with the beyonder's power anyways? Could he handle it? No. Because he was an incomplete being, as explained completely in Fantastic Four #319. Molecule Man reveals that Doom would have controlled it had he been complete.
Originally posted by King Kandy
He "doomed himself"? No he didn't, he not only survived but came out stronger than before.

Doom never acquired anything on the level of the IG. He got like, half a cosmic cube's worth of power from Beyonder. He survived by editorial mandate. His self-sacrifice was probably the one good result out of Marvel Universe: The End and even that wasn't preserved.

Beyonder's power was wildly beyond the IG's power. Secret Wars II may have been retconned. The scope of power that Doom absorbed in Secret Wars was never retconned. Frankly speaking, the continuity is a bit of a mess. Maybe more will be revealed in Dark Avengers where Molecule Man makes an appearance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos subconsciously defeated himself after he destroyed his opposition. Doom just couldn't handle it. Thanos is just better than him in almost every conceivable way.

The point still stands though, how one handles the end prize has little to do with their ability to obtain it. If Doom ruled subjugated Earth then later gets bored and gives it back, does it take away the achievement that he did so?

Thanos used a weapon to defeat a being that was weaker than that weapon. Dr Doom used a man-made machine to take Galactus' power then proceed to go toe-to-toe with the, then, supreme being whom he knew little about. Which is more impressive?

During Infinity War, timing defeated Doom. If Doom/Kang arrived 3 seconds sooner, he would have won. If Kang had defeated Warlock, he would have won.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He survived by editorial mandate. His self-sacrifice was probably the one good result out of Marvel Universe: The End and even that wasn't preserved.
Whether you think he SHOULD have survived makes no difference at all to this debate. He DID, and that's the fact of the matter.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Beyonder's power was wildly beyond the IG's power. Secret Wars II may have been retconned. The scope of power that Doom absorbed in Secret Wars was never retconned. Frankly speaking, the continuity is a bit of a mess. Maybe more will be revealed in Dark Avengers where Molecule Man makes an appearance.
He is not wildly beyond the IG. He is not even above a celestial. In fact, he was stated as being far below a Celestial... who are far below the IG in turn. Cube Beings are quite low on the cosmic scale, and Beyonder was not even a full cube being, he was an incomplete one. In his highest showing ever since the retcon (GotG) he was weaker than Eternity.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Whether you think he SHOULD have survived makes no difference at all to this debate. He DID, and that's the fact of the matter.Fair point. But you act as if Thanos willed his survival. Doom's done stuff like that, I don't think that's how Thanos came back though.
Originally posted by King Kandy
He is not wildly beyond the IG. He is not even above a celestial. In fact, he was stated as being far below a Celestial... who are far below the IG in turn. Cube Beings are quite low on the cosmic scale, and Beyonder was not even a full cube being, he was an incomplete one. In his highest showing ever since the retcon (GotG) he was weaker than Eternity. I think you have your retcons crossed. Even when he was revealed to be an incomplete cube being, he was his own universe. And when Molecule Man later battled him, their battle rocked the Multiverse. But as I said before, the history is way screwed up. The only real constant it seems is Molecule Man for what its worth.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fair point. But you act as if Thanos willed his survival. Doom's done stuff like that, I don't think that's how Thanos came back though.
I think he was just screwing with Warlock saying he needed to sacrifice himself, because he didn't want any of his old acquaintances coming after him since he was planning on turning his life around.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think you have your retcons crossed. Even when he was revealed to be an incomplete cube being, he was his own universe. And when Molecule Man later battled him, their battle rocked the Multiverse. But as I said before, the history is way screwed up. The only real constant it seems is Molecule Man for what its worth.
Retcon 1: He was an incomplete cube and most of the high-end cosmics were just pretending to be weaker then him. Then, he became kosmos who is more powerful than Beyonder.

Retcon 2: Kosmos (and thus beyonder) is far below celestial level.

IG is above celestial level. By far. Doom absorbed a lesser power and couldn't control it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think he was just screwing with Warlock saying he needed to sacrifice himself, because he didn't want any of his old acquaintances coming after him since he was planning on turning his life around.Complete speculation on your part. But you're free to prove so.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Retcon 1: He was an incomplete cube and most of the high-end cosmics were just pretending to be weaker then him. Then, he became kosmos who is more powerful than Beyonder.

Retcon 2: Kosmos (and thus beyonder) is far below celestial level.

IG is above celestial level. By far. Doom absorbed a lesser power and couldn't control it. I don't think Kosmos was at all stronger than Beyonder. Kosmos wasn't even stronger than Molecule Man. I'm pretty sure you have your retcons and what was actually retconned crossed up.

Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= the energies Dr. Doom stole.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's not huge because it has nothing to do with Doom's ability to prep against Thanos. You use this scene to compare how Thanos prepped against Akhenaten and how Doom prepped against Akhenaten. You keep failing to admit that Akhenaten prepped for Doom and didn't prep for Thanos. Not only that, TOAA meant for Thanos to gain THOTU. Hence, there's no point in using those events to prove anything. Huge point, friend.
No. Because he was an incomplete being, as explained completely in Fantastic Four #319. Molecule Man reveals that Doom would have controlled it had he been complete.
He survived by editorial mandate. His self-sacrifice was probably the one good result out of Marvel Universe: The End and even that wasn't preserved.

Beyonder's power was wildly beyond the IG's power. Secret Wars II may have been retconned. The scope of power that Doom absorbed in Secret Wars was never retconned. Frankly speaking, the continuity is a bit of a mess. Maybe more will be revealed in Dark Avengers where Molecule Man makes an appearance. Doom prepped along with the heroes during the ig saga. Guess what he came up with nada, nothing, zilch, zero. he was just another body scored/defeated on the battlefield while Thanos lowered his power only to put on a show for death. Doom still lost horribly with all the rest. Warlock led the charge against Thanos not Doom. They both are on another level when it comes to preparation in the universe.

Doom prepped and lost. How often has Thanos prepped and lost? I'll let you think on it.

Thanos still put himself in that situation and still achieved his goal while Doom did not. It's a bottom line thing and Doom comes up short.

Thanos wanted the ig and got it. Doom wanted it twice and came up short both times. Do you sense a pattern developing here?

Ok, but it still doesn't change the fact the beyonder is small potatoes compared to the ig.

It still doesn't change the fact an all out Galactus crushes Doom in combat. An all out Surfer would completely trash the guy.



Ig>Beyonder.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
The point still stands though, how one handles the end prize has little to do with their ability to obtain it. If Doom ruled subjugated Earth then later gets bored and gives it back, does it take away the achievement that he did so?

Thanos used a weapon to defeat a being that was weaker than that weapon. Dr Doom used a man-made machine to take Galactus' power then proceed to go toe-to-toe with the, then, supreme being whom he knew little about. Which is more impressive?

During Infinity War, timing defeated Doom. If Doom/Kang arrived 3 seconds sooner, he would have won. If Kang had defeated Warlock, he would have won. The point is Doom failed though to properly wield the power. Thanos did not. Thanos also went up against much stiffer competition than what Doom faced in Secret Wars. Doom was a part of Thanos' opposition in the ig storyline. He was simply another beaten adversary.

Doom caught Galactus by surprise. Thanos made another Galactus clone screwing around. I think we both know what it more impressive. A random Thanos experiment clone almost completely destroyed asgard. The guy craps out more dangerous clones than what the real Doom is capable of imo.

Timing is everything. Doom was three seconds short which in all intents and purposes is horribly miscalculating the situation.Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fair point. But you act as if Thanos willed his survival. Doom's done stuff like that, I don't think that's how Thanos came back though.
I think you have your retcons crossed. Even when he was revealed to be an incomplete cube being, he was his own universe. And when Molecule Man later battled him, their battle rocked the Multiverse. But as I said before, the history is way screwed up. The only real constant it seems is Molecule Man for what its worth. A Celestial has been referenced as being a lot more powerful than any cc being.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom prepped along with the heroes during the ig saga. Guess what he came up with nada, nothing, zilch, zero. he was just another body scored/defeated on the battlefield while Thanos lowered his power only to put on a show for death. Doom still lost horribly with all the rest. Warlock led the charge against Thanos not Doom. They both are on another level when it comes to preparation in the universe.What does this have to do with anything? Did Thanos ever confront a full IG user? Nebula. How'd he fair then? Got one-shotted. Again, what does this prove about anything?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom prepped and lost. How often has Thanos prepped and lost? I'll let you think on it.

Thanos still put himself in that situation and still achieved his goal while Doom did not. It's a bottom line thing and Doom comes up short.

Thanos wanted the ig and got it. Doom wanted it twice and came up short both times. Do you sense a pattern developing here? Yeah. Prepped against a wielder of the full IG. So if you really want to compare and put both players on an even keel, then compare how Thanos performed against a wielder of the full IG. Namely Nebula.

Otherwise, compare how Doom performed when the IG wasn't fully assembled. In which case, there is no comparison because Doom never tried. Reed did though. And he didn't need an Infinity Well or an upgrade by Death. The only pattern I'm seeing here is you keep avoiding very simple plot points to make strained and bogus comparisons that have nothing to do with anything.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok, but it still doesn't change the fact the beyonder is small potatoes compared to the ig.

It still doesn't change the fact an all out Galactus crushes Doom in combat. An all out Surfer would completely trash the guy.

Ig>Beyonder. Not at all. And frankly speaking, both Doom and Reed have feats beyond Thanos' when you take away all the "TOAA manipulates all events to make it so."
Originally posted by quanchi112
A Celestial has been referenced as being a lot more powerful than any cc being. Beyonder =/= Kosmos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What does this have to do with anything? Did Thanos ever confront a full IG user? Nebula. How'd he fair then? Got one-shotted. Again, what does this prove about anything?
Yeah. Prepped against a wielder of the full IG. So if you really want to compare and put both players on an even keel, then compare how Thanos performed against a wielder of the full IG. Namely Nebula.

Otherwise, compare how Doom performed when the IG wasn't fully assembled. In which case, there is no comparison because Doom never tried. Reed did though. And he didn't need an Infinity Well or an upgrade by Death.
Not at all. And frankly speaking, both Doom and Reed have feats beyond Thanos' when you take away all the "TOAA manipulates all events to make it so."
Beyonder =/= Kosmos. Thanos eventually aided taking Nebula down. Thanos also eventually aided and was intricate in taking Magus down. Doom was an utter failure when he prepped against Thanos in that situation. He also completely failed against Magus even though he had Kang's aid and was underneath Magus' radar.

Thanos recovered most of his gems by out thinking his opponents he didn't go around beating foes into submission.

They have also had a lot more appearances. Reed also completely failed when attempting to take down the WW Hulk.

Doom also looked like a complete chump after he stole the pc and tried leaving earth.

When both Thanos and Doom are involved in a story Thanos always looked better as in more prepared, successful, better leader, etc. than Vic.

It's really a matchup Doom can't win.

Kinda makes you wonder to, eh? TOAA felt Thanos was the better man for the job than Doom. The supreme being realizes Thanos is better so why won't you?

Celestial>Beyonder=Kosmos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Complete speculation on your part. But you're free to prove so.
I said I think that's why. The actual reason is unknown because it was never conclusively stated anywhere.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't think Kosmos was at all stronger than Beyonder. Kosmos wasn't even stronger than Molecule Man. I'm pretty sure you have your retcons and what was actually retconned crossed up.

Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= the energies Dr. Doom stole.
OK, this is what happened...

Fantastic Four #319: They meet Beyonder in his own universe. He's revealed as a half CC. Molecule Man is the other half and they merge to form Kosmos. Then Molecule Man is expelled, powerless.

Fantastic Four Annual #23: Kosmos (and beyonder) is said to be far below a celestial.

Somewhere later: Owen spontaneously manifests his power, pulls beyonder out of Kosmos, and beats the shit out of him. Hey, don't ask me.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos also eventually aided and was intricate in taking Magus down. Doom was an utter failure when he prepped against Thanos in that situation. He also completely failed against Magus even though he had Kang's aid and was underneath Magus' radar.
Gotta disagree with you there.
Doom and Kang WERE NOT on Magus's radar. He didn't even know what hit him. and then Doom turned on Kang before Kang could turn on Doom, so he basically outsmarted him. Doom then went on to give Magus a beating and make him sumbit the IG. His plan only failed when Eternity and big G convinced LT to give back the IG's powers. If he had delayed it by 10 secs doom would have gotten the Infinity Gauntlet.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos eventually aided taking Nebula down. Thanos also eventually aided and was intricate in taking Magus down. Doom was an utter failure when he prepped against Thanos in that situation. He also completely failed against Magus even though he had Kang's aid and was underneath Magus' radar.Doom also aided in taking Nebula down. So what? Why do you keep ignoring the most simple plot points?! And so what about Doom not taking the IG from Magus? What does this have to do with anything?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos recovered most of his gems by out thinking his opponents he didn't go around beating foes into submission.

They have also had a lot more appearances. Reed also completely failed when attempting to take down the WW Hulk. So what? You wanted to compare analogous situations and you're not happy with the result, that's your problem.

So what? First you harp about how Thanos has greater feats. You tried to do it by making faulty comparisons that ignored specific plot points. Then you tried doing it by citing sheer scope of feats. The former was addressed already. The latter you now dismiss by focusing on something completely off-topic.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom also looked like a complete chump after he stole the pc and tried leaving earth.

When both Thanos and Doom are involved in a story Thanos always looked better as in more prepared, successful, better leader, etc. than Vic.So what? Seriously, what does this have to do with anything? Thanos himself admitted how he's been a complete chump in his endeavors. At least when it comes to the PC, Doom's able to usurp and manipulate it, unlike Thanos.

Only if you ignore the specific plot-points to make your inane comparisons. See above.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's really a matchup Doom can't win.

Kinda makes you wonder to, eh? TOAA felt Thanos was the better man for the job than Doom. The supreme being realizes Thanos is better so why won't you?TOAA picked Thanos as being perfect because of Thanos' inherent flaw. Don't conflate his flaw with some sense of superiority. That's from Thanos' own mouth.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Celestial>Beyonder=Kosmos. Seriously. Not at all.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Gotta disagree with you there.
Doom and Kang WERE NOT on Magus's radar. He didn't even know what hit him. and then Doom turned on Kang before Kang could turn on Doom, so he basically outsmarted him. Doom then went on to give Magus a beating and make him sumbit the IG. His plan only failed when Eternity and big G convinced LT to give back the IG's powers. If he had delayed it by 10 secs doom would have gotten the Infinity Gauntlet. That's why I said underneath. He wasn't aware of them at all. Close doesn't cut it. Bottom line is he failed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I said I think that's why. The actual reason is unknown because it was never conclusively stated anywhere.And as I said, complete speculation.
Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, this is what happened...

Fantastic Four #319: They meet Beyonder in his own universe. He's revealed as a half CC. Molecule Man is the other half and they merge to form Kosmos. Then Molecule Man is expelled, powerless.

Fantastic Four Annual #23: Kosmos (and beyonder) is said to be far below a celestial.

Somewhere later: Owen spontaneously manifests his power, pulls beyonder out of Kosmos, and beats the shit out of him. Hey, don't ask me. I never asked you. Because your interpretation of what Beyonder was, pre-merger to Kosmos is wrong. Beyonder and Molecule Man were not originally two halves of a CC being that existed before them. Their merger did, however, create a fledgling CC being. This is where you cross yourself. Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= the energies that Doom stole.

Go argue with Mr Master about this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom also aided in taking Nebula down. So what? Why do you keep ignoring the most simple plot points?! And so what about Doom not taking the IG from Magus? What does this have to do with anything?
So what? You wanted to compare analogous situations and you're not happy with the result, that's your problem.

So what? First you harp about how Thanos has greater feats. You tried to do it by making faulty comparisons that ignored specific plot points. Then you tried doing it by citing sheer scope of feats. The former was addressed already. The latter you now dismiss by focusing on something completely off-topic.
So what? Seriously, what does this have to do with anything? Thanos himself admitted how he's been a complete chump in his endeavors. At least when it comes to the PC, Doom's able to usurp and manipulate it, unlike Thanos.

Only if you ignore the specific plot-points to make your inane comparisons. See above.
TOAA picked Thanos as being perfect because of Thanos' inherent flaw. Don't conflate his flaw with some sense of superiority. That's from Thanos' own mouth.
Seriously. Not at all. Doom is never a major player when Thanos is involved. He always takes a back seat when they are both in the same story. Thanos ends up being pivotal while Doom ends up being a background character. Doom failed which has to do with everything. Failure and success is the major issue here. Doom is quite familiar with one while Thanos is familiar with the other.

You are downplaying the mad titan. I won't stand for it. Thanos used his brains to defeat the elders and easily outsmarted the GrandMaster who was aware of his presence.

I have dismissed nothing. You want to ignore the glaringly obvious, success and failure.

So what? Pc is small potatoes to Thanos. The guy has experimental guns that have trapped Thor lying around his bachelor pad. Thor annihilated Surfer prior to him acquiring the pgem.

What are you talking about? Thanos was the only one who could have achieved this. It was stated in the story. Thanos was needed while Doom wasn't.

What retcon am I missing then? This was directly referenced.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom is never a major player when Thanos is involved. He always takes a back seat when they are both in the same story. Thanos ends up being pivotal while Doom ends up being a background character. Doom failed which has to do with everything. Failure and success is the major issue here. Doom is quite familiar with one while Thanos is familiar with the other.

You are downplaying the mad titan. I won't stand for it. Thanos used his brains to defeat the elders and easily outsmarted the GrandMaster who was aware of his presence.Hawkeye has outsmarted the damn Grandmaster. Rulk stomped his face too. Oh noez!!! They must be superior to Thanos who took several pages to do so! Only, that doesn't work because I'm ignoring several crucial plot-points when I make this inane comparison. This is exactly what you've been doing except that you actually believe you're not doing anything wrong.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I have dismissed nothing. You want to ignore the glaringly obvious, success and failure.Irony...
Originally posted by quanchi112
So what? Pc is small potatoes to Thanos.... defined. Yeah, when Doom succeeds and Thanos fails, on pretty much the only thing they both endeavored on a fair playing field (except Thanos even had Annihilus and all his tech), guess what you decide to do? Surprise surprise.
Originally posted by quanchi112
What are you talking about? Thanos was the only one who could have achieved this. It was stated in the story. Thanos was needed while Doom wasn't.Yeah, cuz TOAA needed someone he could dupe. Whoopdie-doo.
Originally posted by quanchi112
What retcon am I missing then? This was directly referenced. You're not missing a retcon, just butchering one of the retcons to fit your interpretation.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hawkeye has outsmarted the damn Grandmaster. Rulk stomped his face too. Oh noez!!! They must be superior to Thanos who took several pages to do so! Only, that doesn't work because I'm ignoring several crucial plot-points when I make this inane comparison. This is exactly what you've been doing except that you actually believe you're not doing anything wrong.
Irony...
... defined. Yeah, when Doom succeeds and Thanos fails, on pretty much the only thing they both endeavored on a fair playing field (except Thanos even had Annihilus and all his tech), guess what you decide to do? Surprise surprise.
Yeah, cuz TOAA needed someone he could dupe. Whoopdie-doo.
You're not missing a retcon, just butchering one of the retcons to fit your interpretation. The point is Thanos has been successful and has always been a bigger player in all of these stories which has both of these characters within them.

You are being rather hypocritical.

Thanos hadn't failed. Annihilus was growing impatient and Thanos learned of his true plans anyways.

No, only Thanos could achieve this and Thanos still turned this into a positive for himself. He still came out on top.

Feel me in then.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FantasticFourAnnual26-46Story2.jpg

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is Thanos has been successful and has always been a bigger player in all of these stories which has both of these characters within them.

You are being rather hypocritical.

Thanos hadn't failed. Annihilus was growing impatient and Thanos learned of his true plans anyways.

No, only Thanos could achieve this and Thanos still turned this into a positive for himself. He still came out on top.

Feel me in then.And Doom and Reed have the bigger feats. Sorry if you don't like the stories that aren't Thanos-centric. That's your problem, not mine.

And how am I being hypocritical when I'm accounting for context? Every single situation you've tried to compare Doom and Thanos has been utterly flawed because you keep ignoring how the scenario was already massively skewed in Thanos' favor. And when I counter with specific situations where both players are on an even keel, you act like it doesn't matter?

Thanos never failed? You mean he would have eventually learned how to strip the POwer Cosmic and imbue others with it? Even putting aside that you have absolutely no evidence to suggest that, then whatever, Doom did it faster than Thanos with less resources. Fact. You started the comparison war, so live with it. And stop projecting your argument's glaring weaknesses onto mine.

TOAA picked Thanos because he was the one most likely to fall into the trap that TOAA set. Thanos' own words, which were made absolutely clear in the story.

And Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Doom stole. Stop conflating the concepts.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And Doom and Reed have the bigger feats. Sorry if you don't like the stories that aren't Thanos-centric. That's your problem, not mine.

And how am I being hypocritical when I'm accounting for context? Every single situation you've tried to compare Doom and Thanos has been utterly flawed because you keep ignoring how the scenario was already massively skewed in Thanos' favor. And when I counter with specific situations where both players are on an even keel, you act like it doesn't matter?

Thanos never failed? You mean he would have eventually learned how to strip the POwer Cosmic and imbue others with it? Even putting aside that you have absolutely no evidence to suggest that, then whatever, Doom did it faster than Thanos with less resources. Fact. You started the comparison war, so live with it. And stop projecting your argument's glaring weaknesses onto mine.

TOAA picked Thanos because he was the one most likely to fall into the trap that TOAA set. Thanos' own words, which were made absolutely clear in the story.

And Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Doom stole. Stop conflating the concepts. Sorry you don't like direct comparisons between the two characters and have to harp about stories in which Thanos wasn't involved to cling to.

You are ignoring the most important factor of all. The point is whether they know about Thanos' involvement or Doom's Thanos succeeds while Doom fails. Thanos' schemes have been far grander. Doom has set out to accomplish the things Thanos has already accomplished anyways and he still comes up short.

Have we ever seen Doom spy on Thanos? Just saying. Thanos is always a step ahead it seems and even when Doom isn't on his opponent's radar he still comes up short. Try as hard as you want, but you can't ignore it.

We have discussed situations where the situation has been in Doom's favor and he still comes up short.

Thanos didn't fail in that task. He discovered Annihilus' true goal and abandoned the project. Quit ignoring that crucial context to hype old Vic.

Doom and Reed have more feats than Thanos because they have many more appearances. They also have many more failures. Thanos' feats and accomplishments are grander and when both of these characters are involved in the same story Thanos always plays a much more pivotal role than Doom.

Doom backed himself into a corner against Ak while Thanos ended up on the winning side against the Magus who created a Thanos doppleganger not a Doom one to be his right hand man.

Thanos was picked because he was the only one who could do it. Quit ignoring it just because it drives you crazy.

I put up a scan that clearly states Celestials blow cc's out of the water and yet you ignore it. You are truly beaten up and down ye you refuse to admit it. I enjoy this.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/marveltheend4kebbin08-4.jpg

I alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat. Key words are I and alone.

Thanos take both Von Doom and Richards to the Pimpslap Academy

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sorry you don't like direct comparisons between the two characters and have to harp about stories in which Thanos wasn't involved to cling to.Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Thanos w/ full IG to Thanos prepping against the Elders of the Universe to obtain the IG. Indirect comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom fighting against Nebula to Thanos fighting against Nebula. Direct comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Akhenaten, who had prepped against Dr Doom already, to Thanos prepping against Akhenaten secretly. Indirect comparison.

Comparing how Dr Doom did when figuring out the Power Cosmic to how Thanos did when figuring out the Power Cosmic. Direct comparison.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. Just because you blatantly skew all your comparisons in your mind for your character's favor doesn't make it cogent argumentation which I have to accept. Frankly, I feel like I'm patronizing you by lecturing you on what would be immediately obvious to anybody. But since I'm not going to accuse you of lying, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what you're doing wrong. I'll keep trying to dumb it down.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I put up a scan that clearly states Celestials blow cc's out of the water and yet you ignore it. You are truly beaten up and down ye you refuse to admit it. I enjoy this.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/marveltheend4kebbin08-4.jpg

I alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat. Key words are I and alone. Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Dr Doom stole. I don't enjoy repeating myself, but what can I do? You obviously need to reread it for yourself to be convinced or have someone else explain it to you because you simply don't read what I write.

Thanos' self-aggrandizing doesn't mean much when you actually take into context what he specifically said. Key word is "seemingly." Not only that, but Thanos himself talks about what a hollow victory it was later on:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3352/marveltheend5kebbin02im8.jpg

and here

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7483/mute0101dh0.jpg

and here

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/795224/T5.jpg.html

... what?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Thanos w/ full IG to Thanos prepping against the Elders of the Universe to obtain the IG. Indirect comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom fighting against Nebula to Thanos fighting against Nebula. Direct comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Akhenaten, who had prepped against Dr Doom already, to Thanos prepping against Akhenaten secretly. Indirect comparison.

Comparing how Dr Doom did when figuring out the Power Cosmic to how Thanos did when figuring out the Power Cosmic. Direct comparison.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. Just because you blatantly skew all your comparisons in your mind for your character's favor doesn't make it cogent argumentation which I have to accept. Frankly, I feel like I'm patronizing you by lecturing you on what would be immediately obvious to anybody. But since I'm not going to accuse you of lying, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what you're doing wrong. I'll keep trying to dumb it down.
Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Dr Doom stole. I don't enjoy repeating myself, but what can I do? You obviously need to reread it for yourself to be convinced or have someone else explain it to you because you simply don't read what I write.

Thanos' self-aggrandizing doesn't mean much when you actually take into context what he specifically said. Key word is "seemingly." Not only that, but Thanos himself talks about what a hollow victory it was later on:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3352/marveltheend5kebbin02im8.jpg

and here

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7483/mute0101dh0.jpg

and here

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/795224/T5.jpg.html

... what? Did you honestly think I'd let you get away with this?

You were chosen because of your will.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-15_Tato.jpg


What must be done you alone must accomplish.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-16_Tato.jpg



Here Thanos finds the proverbial loophole and betters himself because of this experience. He grew, upgraded, and restored his former armada.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thanos0110-3.jpg

Doom failed against Thanos along with the rest of the group he piggybacked himself to. He lost and Thanos barely noticed him. There's a reason Thanos gets to these sources of power before Doom. He's better than him.

Comparing Thanos' role against Nebula to Doom's role and who was more significant is a direct comparison.

Comparing Doom's failure when targeted to Thanos prevailing when targeted against the Magus is a direct comparison.

Thanos abandoned this goal the moment he discovered his true intentions. Quit bringing this up like Thanos couldn't do so and like he admitted defeat.

I got it the first few times. What you don't seem to get is the ig>Celestials>cc's.

Can't get much simpler than that.

Doom couldn't handle a much weaker power source than the ig. He's small time compared to Thanos and always will be the villain of the week.

Ps. Don't ever let me catch you twisting another Thanos feat into something with scans of him despairing over the situation again. Ever.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you honestly think I'd let you get away with this?

You were chosen because of your will.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-15_Tato.jpgThanos himself responds, "Chosen and tricked. A poisonous trinket was offered and I foolishly leapt for it."
Originally posted by quanchi112
What must be done you alone must accomplish.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-16_Tato.jpgYes, he alone. Because he alone is all that's left with the power. Is he going to pass it off to Warlock? And again, Warlock's pontifications are repelled as Thanos himself says, "Spare me... Defeat is humiliation enough!"
Originally posted by quanchi112
Here Thanos finds the proverbial loophole and betters himself because of this experience. He grew, upgraded, and restored his former armada.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thanos0110-3.jpgFrom my perspective, his using a loophole detracts from the feat of final self-sacrifice. But it's quite obvious you consider an upgrade (including "life-assuring wishes" for future adventures to be more important. Different views, whatever. Still... going down that road of future adventures, it's then quite unfortunate that Thanos subsequently was tricked by Annihilus and got his heart torn out by Drax in Annihilation. Those "life-assuring wishes" should have included anti-Drax spray.

I jest, I jest. Anyway, you refuse to let context detract from highly compartmentalized feats within the story. And I use the term "compartmentalized" very purposefully. It's like you're hiding them from the rest of the story. So Thanos got THOTU and not Doom? So what? You don't care to acknowledge that TOAA never meant for Doom to have it and laid this trap for Thanos. Nor do you care to acknowledge that Thanos does not consider this a victory in any sense. Despite your exhortations and Warlock's pity, Thanos' own words are quite telling: "tricked," "insane joke," "foolishly," "defeat," "humiliation." These are his words, not mine.

You can accuse me of projecting some petty vitriol onto the events of Marvel Universe: The End, but really, all I'm doing is simply reading Thanos' own account on-panel. And tbh, while victory may be in the eye of the beholder, we are dealing with Thanos and his perspective is telling.

So while you may try to use his gaining of THOTU as some sort of superior feat that Doom couldn't accomplish in the context of this debate, it's my opinion (derived from Thanos') that it's pretty much a non-feat and not really something to be proud of. The self-sacrifice you could be proud of... until oops... no self-sacrifice. Meh.

^ continued
Originally posted by quanchi112
Comparing Thanos' role against Nebula to Doom's role and who was more significant is a direct comparison.

Comparing Doom's failure when targeted to Thanos prevailing when targeted against the Magus is a direct comparison.

Thanos abandoned this goal the moment he discovered his true intentions. Quit bringing this up like Thanos couldn't do so and like he admitted defeat.Not really. They all got tossed around and were scrambling over each other to get the IG and Warlock got it.

Not really. A more direct comparison is comparing how Doom failed to obtain the incomplete inactive IG when Magus relied on the CCU's to when Thanos also failed to obtain the incomplete inactive IG when Magus relied on the CCU's. And when you make that comparison, Doom came far closer than Thanos. But I'm not going to pull a quanchism and ignore context. Context is our friend. And ultimately, Magus prepped for Thanos and not for Doom.

Doom unlocked the PC faster. No equivocating around that. I don't care if you think Thanos eventually would have unlocked the secrets of stripping and imbuing the Power Cosmic simply because that's a baseless statement. He had weeks, didn't do it weeks, and then realized he was duped by Annihilus. Doom did it on-panel in shorter time with less resources. Oops.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I got it the first few times. What you don't seem to get is the ig>Celestials>cc's.What makes you think that the energies that Doom stole was a cosmic cube? You don't know the differences between (i) Beyonder's energies as they were ripped from the Beyond realm, (ii) SWII Beyonder coalescing into the 616 realm, (iii) SWII Beyonder merging with MM and adopting the nascent form of a Cube Being, and (iv) what a Cosmic Cube is. You've conflated all the concepts. Either you're uneducated or you're doing it on purpose.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ps. Don't ever let me catch you twisting another Thanos feat into something with scans of him despairing over the situation again. Ever.P.S. Get over yourself, bro.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Comparing Doom's failure when targeted to Thanos prevailing when targeted against the Magus is a direct comparison.Actually on this, you're comparing Doom vs Akhenaten to Thanos vs Magus. Ah.

Still. Not really. Doom has Kang's assistance and Galactus/LT/Gamora essentially screwed Doom out of the IG. Thanos had all the Defenders' assistance and TOAA wanted Thanos to get the THOTU. Context. It is our friend. It wishes to shake your hand and say, "Good evening, sir. Shall we have cakes and tea?"

You don't hate cakes and tea do you?

DO YOU?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Dr Doom stole. I don't enjoy repeating myself, but what can I do? You obviously need to reread it for yourself to be convinced or have someone else explain it to you because you simply don't read what I write.
Maybe you can provide actual evidence then because i've never seen anything that would justify saying Beyonder>Kosmos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanos himself responds, "Chosen and tricked. A poisonous trinket was offered and I foolishly leapt for it."
Yes, he alone. Because he alone is all that's left with the power. Is he going to pass it off to Warlock? And again, Warlock's pontifications are repelled as Thanos himself says, "Spare me... Defeat is humiliation enough!"
From my perspective, his using a loophole detracts from the feat of final self-sacrifice. But it's quite obvious you consider an upgrade (including "life-assuring wishes" for future adventures to be more important. Different views, whatever. Still... going down that road of future adventures, it's then quite unfortunate that Thanos subsequently was tricked by Annihilus and got his heart torn out by Drax in Annihilation. Those "life-assuring wishes" should have included anti-Drax spray.

I jest, I jest. Anyway, you refuse to let context detract from highly compartmentalized feats within the story. And I use the term "compartmentalized" very purposefully. It's like you're hiding them from the rest of the story. So Thanos got THOTU and not Doom? So what? You don't care to acknowledge that TOAA never meant for Doom to have it and laid this trap for Thanos. Nor do you care to acknowledge that Thanos does not consider this a victory in any sense. Despite your exhortations and Warlock's pity, Thanos' own words are quite telling: "tricked," "insane joke," "foolishly," "defeat," "humiliation." These are his words, not mine.

You can accuse me of projecting some petty vitriol onto the events of Marvel Universe: The End, but really, all I'm doing is simply reading Thanos' own account on-panel. And tbh, while victory may be in the eye of the beholder, we are dealing with Thanos and his perspective is telling.

So while you may try to use his gaining of THOTU as some sort of superior feat that Doom couldn't accomplish in the context of this debate, it's my opinion (derived from Thanos') that it's pretty much a non-feat and not really something to be proud of. The self-sacrifice you could be proud of... until oops... no self-sacrifice. Meh. Yes he was tricked. I never said he wasn't but at the end of the series past the point where Thanos was self reflecting on his grim situation it's clear even Warlock agrees Thanos was chosen for this as he and he alone could accomplish it. You tried painting it falsely through Thanos' comments that any old joe schmoe could have done it.

No, he was chosen as Thanos initially said. Warlock was right there and he had also wielded the ig before. The point in the supreme being selected Thanos as he was the best/only man for the job. Doom was just some fool in this story.

Thanos is happy as he is right besides his Mistress Death's side. He wasn't able to predict and alter any obstacle thrown his way. He was cheapshotted by the very being initially created to destroy him after he underwent some dramatic transformation with Thanos' killing stroke in his dna.

Thanos didn't realize that reality was doomed and how would he until he became supreme? Seriously? Doom had he achieved this power would be in the same boat and couldn't even foresee his plan as just a way for Ak to kill him over and over again. That's called failure. Thanos still did what he and he alone could do, found the loophole, upgraded himself, restored his former armada, and saved the day. Not bad, eh?

No, you choose to highlight his comments when he was initially despairing over the situation he got himself into. He got himself out of it and Warlock also agreed Thanos was the only man for the job.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ continued
Not really. They all got tossed around and were scrambling over each other to get the IG and Warlock got it.

Not really. A more direct comparison is comparing how Doom failed to obtain the incomplete inactive IG when Magus relied on the CCU's to when Thanos also failed to obtain the incomplete inactive IG when Magus relied on the CCU's. And when you make that comparison, Doom came far closer than Thanos. But I'm not going to pull a quanchism and ignore context. Context is our friend. And ultimately, Magus prepped for Thanos and not for Doom.

Doom unlocked the PC faster. No equivocating around that. I don't care if you think Thanos eventually would have unlocked the secrets of stripping and imbuing the Power Cosmic simply because that's a baseless statement. He had weeks, didn't do it weeks, and then realized he was duped by Annihilus. Doom did it on-panel in shorter time with less resources. Oops.
What makes you think that the energies that Doom stole was a cosmic cube? You don't know the differences between (i) Beyonder's energies as they were ripped from the Beyond realm, (ii) SWII Beyonder coalescing into the 616 realm, (iii) SWII Beyonder merging with MM and adopting the nascent form of a Cube Being, and (iv) what a Cosmic Cube is. You've conflated all the concepts. Either you're uneducated or you're doing it on purpose.
P.S. Get over yourself, bro. My point is Thanos was looked at as more of a leader than Doom was. Doom was simply a background character and it was just a mad scramble for the ig. It was something he already accomplished anyways and was old news. It would have been bad for the story if he got it again at the end of the series anyways.

If you want to go that route I will do so. Doom failed in the end while Thanos was there and played a pivotal role in defeating the Magus. Thanos also achieved supremacy and wasn't doomed to be repeatedly killed in time again and again. What a horrible fate Doom's genius plan left for him.

So? He didn't fail. This is all you whine about as Doom's greatest victory like discovering and utilizing the pc means anything. Thanos didn't fail and his greatest accomplishments far outweigh the pc. This has nothing to do with anything really and Thanos' one clone it seems possessed the power cosmic. Just saying.

If I haven't missed anything like a retcon Beyonder is just capable of a cc. If I am wrong lead me in the proper direction. We have seen very powerful cc's compared as nothing to the Celestials. SW2 was retconned as well.

Just don't let me catch you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Actually on this, you're comparing Doom vs Akhenaten to Thanos vs Magus. Ah.

Still. Not really. Doom has Kang's assistance and Galactus/LT/Gamora essentially screwed Doom out of the IG. Thanos had all the Defenders' assistance and TOAA wanted Thanos to get the THOTU. Context. It is our friend. It wishes to shake your hand and say, "Good evening, sir. Shall we have cakes and tea?"

You don't hate cakes and tea do you?

DO YOU? No, I was comparing the end results of the Magus against both. Thanos still came out in the end as being very pivotal and successful while Doom was just defeated even though he had the element of surprise on his side.

Doom hadn't figured out all the angles and wasn't aware of everything that was going on just like in marvel's the end. He came out a loser and Thanos despite the supreme being's dupe still came out a winner and a hero.

It's you who ignores context.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Thanos w/ full IG to Thanos prepping against the Elders of the Universe to obtain the IG. Indirect comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom fighting against Nebula to Thanos fighting against Nebula. Direct comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Akhenaten, who had prepped against Dr Doom already, to Thanos prepping against Akhenaten secretly. Indirect comparison.

Comparing how Dr Doom did when figuring out the Power Cosmic to how Thanos did when figuring out the Power Cosmic. Direct comparison.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. Just because you blatantly skew all your comparisons in your mind for your character's favor doesn't make it cogent argumentation which I have to accept. Frankly, I feel like I'm patronizing you by lecturing you on what would be immediately obvious to anybody. But since I'm not going to accuse you of lying, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what you're doing wrong. I'll keep trying to dumb it down.
Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Dr Doom stole. I don't enjoy repeating myself, but what can I do? You obviously need to reread it for yourself to be convinced or have someone else explain it to you because you simply don't read what I write.

Thanos' self-aggrandizing doesn't mean much when you actually take into context what he specifically said. Key word is "seemingly." Not only that, but Thanos himself talks about what a hollow victory it was later on:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3352/marveltheend5kebbin02im8.jpg

and here

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7483/mute0101dh0.jpg

and here

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/795224/T5.jpg.html

... what?

Very nice One. I'll keep reading

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, I was comparing the end results of the Magus against both. Thanos still came out in the end as being very pivotal and successful while Doom was just defeated even though he had the element of surprise on his side.

Doom hadn't figured out all the angles and wasn't aware of everything that was going on just like in marvel's the end. He came out a loser and Thanos despite the supreme being's dupe still came out a winner and a hero.

It's you who ignores context. Except that Doom was allying w/ Kang to fight against a Magus who was utilizing 5 CCU's and Thanos was allying w/ every Marvel superhero to fight against a Magus who was utilizing an incomplete IG. Slight difference, slick.

No. Thanos in his own words: "tricked," "insane joke," "foolishly," "defeat," "humiliation." Thanos' real claim to fame, as Adam Warlock aggrandizes, was that Thanos would sacrifice himself for all creation and nobody would ever know... except he didn't. Meh. And if you want to deal in absolutes, Thanos is dead. Doom ain't.

Not really. I don't ignore context because context is my friend and I have shall cakes and tea with it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Not really. I don't ignore context because context is my friend and I have shall cakes and tea with it.

hehe

Originally posted by -Pr-
Richards and Doom. Hard to imagine them being outsmarted if they work together.

Wrong. Thanos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except that Doom was allying w/ Kang to fight against a Magus who was utilizing 5 CCU's and Thanos was allying w/ every Marvel superhero to fight against a Magus who was utilizing an incomplete IG. Slight difference, slick.

No. Thanos in his own words: "tricked," "insane joke," "foolishly," "defeat," "humiliation." Thanos' real claim to fame, as Adam Warlock aggrandizes, was that Thanos would sacrifice himself for all creation and nobody would ever know... except he didn't. Meh. And if you want to deal in absolutes, Thanos is dead. Doom ain't.

Not really. I don't ignore context because context is my friend and I have shall cakes and tea with it. But Thanos wasn't under the radar while Doom was. Thanos also pulled off hiding the reality gem despite being on his radar, slick. Context, it's your friend not your enemy.

Thanos was tricked and yet he fixed everything WITHOUT having to sacrifice himself. You want to just highlight Thanos feeling down on himself and forget about the end result.

Thanos is with Death the love of his life. Even in death the guy wins. Doom is just a minor villain anyways compared to what happens when Thanos becomes involved.

Live in denial all you want, you doombot.

Originally posted by quanchi112
But Thanos wasn't under the radar while Doom was. Thanos also pulled off hiding the reality gem despite being on his radar, slick. Context, it's your friend not your enemy.Which only adds to the many reasons why you can't qualitatively compare the two scenarios because they aren't congruent AT ALL. You know that swooshing sound you've been hearing everytime you respond to my posts? That's the point flying right by ya... again.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos was tricked and yet he fixed everything WITHOUT having to sacrifice himself. You want to just highlight Thanos feeling down on himself and forget about the end result.No, I'm just presenting Thanos' own view of the events in Marvel Universe: The End, which is extremely revealing in that everything was arranged. So gaining THOTU is literally a non-feat. I also fully embrace the end result because it completely negates the heroic sacrifice that he was supposed to have made in return for (i) his fleet and technology back, which was subverted by Annihilus in Annihilation (oops), (ii) "life-assuring wishes" which unfortunately didn't include anti-Drax spray (oops again), and (iii) a new lease on life for new adventures which unfortunately ended up in him being a few steps away from undoing the crisis he helped create by rigging the Galactus-bomb (oopsie-oops). Staggering end results. Clearly.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos is with Death the love of his life. Even in death the guy wins. Doom is just a minor villain anyways compared to what happens when Thanos becomes involved.So when Reed and Doom win this fight and kill Thanos, Thanos'll win in death. Gotcha.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Which only adds to the many reasons why you can't qualitatively compare the two scenarios because they aren't congruent AT ALL. You know that swooshing sound you've been hearing everytime you respond to my posts? That's the point flying right by ya... again.
No, I'm just presenting Thanos' own view of the events in Marvel Universe: The End, which is extremely revealing in that everything was arranged. So gaining THOTU is literally a non-feat. I also fully embrace the end result because it completely negates the heroic sacrifice that he was supposed to have made in return for (i) his fleet and technology back, which was subverted by Annihilus in Annihilation (oops), (ii) "life-assuring wishes" which unfortunately didn't include anti-Drax spray (oops again), and (iii) a new lease on life for new adventures which unfortunately ended up in him being a few steps away from undoing the crisis he helped create by rigging the Galactus-bomb (oopsie-oops). Staggering end results. Clearly.
So when Reed and Doom win this fight and kill Thanos, Thanos'll win in death. Gotcha. You want to ignore the end results and their success. Success is the only thing that really matters in the end anyways.

You ignored how the story ended and how Warlock also agreed that only Thanos could pull it off. Do you honestly believe anyone could have done it? I expect an answer.

Thanos turned his back and you know the rest. You can't prepare for every obstacle that comes your way. How was Thanos to know Drax would undergo a dramatic transformation which would enable him to do so? Is he supposed to be all knowing? Cuz Doom sure the hell isn't.


I still remember when he ran right into Galactus' shield and was dismissed like some kinda of idiot.

Thanos is well beyond either of these two in a chess match. he will steamroll them like he does all his competition when motivated.

Thanos was chosen to get the HOTU because ONLY HE had the power and will to subjugate it.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/marveltheend4kebbin08-4.jpg

^ Self-aggrandizing statement that came in toward the beginning of Thanos' narrative. Well before he finally revealed that TOAA had planned it all along, which robs this prior narration of it's inherent truthfulness when Thanos later has the epiphany that he was "perfect" for the job based on Thanos' career in nihilism, since the solution involved total destruction before recreation without the systemic flaw:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/795224_T5.jpg
Originally posted by quanchi112
You want to ignore the end results and their success. Success is the only thing that really matters in the end anyways. Not at all. Straw-man and a poor one at that. I fully recognize the end results but realize that through consideration of relevant context, the two scenarios cannot be legitimately compared on an even keel. You called context your friend earlier, don't forget your friends from one post to the next.

And your obsession with end-results is flawed in and of itself because of your tunnel-vision. You deem Thanos' adventure with THOTU as an unqualified success, when he was set up by TOAA from the start and ignore how the return of his tech and "life-assuring" wishes actually didn't mean spit in Annihilation, where he was completely duped by Annihilus.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Self-aggrandizing statement that came in toward the beginning of Thanos' narrative. Well before he finally revealed that TOAA had planned it all along, which robs this prior narration of it's inherent truthfulness when Thanos later has the epiphany that he was "perfect" for the job based on Thanos' career in nihilism, since the solution involved total destruction before recreation without the systemic flaw:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/795224_T5.jpg
Not at all. Straw-man and a poor one at that. I fully recognize the end results but realize that through consideration of relevant context, the two scenarios cannot be legitimately compared on an even keel. You called context your friend earlier, don't forget your friends from one post to the next.

And your obsession with end-results is flawed in and of itself because of your tunnel-vision. You deem Thanos' adventure with THOTU as an unqualified success, when he was set up by TOAA from the start and ignore how the return of his tech and "life-assuring" wishes actually didn't mean spit in Annihilation, where he was completely duped by Annihilus. Again, Warlock also agreed that Thanos was the perfect candidate and this statement doesn't override Thanos' feat of being this power's master. Akh went mad and it took him a lot of time to just master a little bit of it so don't you dare try to sell me this.

I haven't. Thanos triumphed when he was prepped against and when he wasn't. Doom lost when he was prepped against and when he wasn't. Both situations involved Thanos being triumphant and successful while Doom failed in both. No matter how you attempt to spin it Thanos>>Doom.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Again, Warlock also agreed that Thanos was the perfect candidate and this statement doesn't override Thanos' feat of being this power's master. Akh went mad and it took him a lot of time to just master a little bit of it so don't you dare try to sell me this.I already pointed out that Warlock's statements were rejected by Thanos who characterized the events as "tricked" and himself as "foolishly" leaping into it. I'm not selling you anything, I was explaining it to King Kandy as I already explained it to you. Ignoring my rebuttals doesn't help your cause.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I haven't. Thanos triumphed when he was prepped against and when he wasn't. Doom lost when he was prepped against and when he wasn't. Both situations involved Thanos being triumphant and successful while Doom failed in both. No matter how you attempt to spin it Thanos>>Doom. You're repeating yourself and again ignoring my rebuttals. You can continue with ad ignorantium all you want, but your comparisons are completely incongruent and therefore worthless in your efforts to argue Thanos' achievements outstripping Doom's.

And this thread is about Reed and Doom. And Reed + Doom >>>>>> Thanos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I already pointed out that Warlock's statements were rejected by Thanos who characterized the events as "tricked" and himself as "foolishly" leaping into it. I'm not selling you anything, I was explaining it to King Kandy as I already explained it to you. Ignoring my rebuttals doesn't help your cause.
You're repeating yourself and again ignoring my rebuttals. You can continue with ad ignorantium all you want, but your comparisons are completely incongruent and therefore worthless in your efforts to argue Thanos' achievements outstripping Doom's.

And this thread is about Reed and Doom. And Reed + Doom >>>>>> Thanos. Thanos just fell into a momentary despair as he had been tricked. He was the only one who could do so as he earlier pointed it and Warlock later agreed with. Thanos also figured out a way to benefit from the experience. He turned it around like usual.

You are ignoring that one was trimuphant in both scenarios while one failed in both scenarios. You can ignore it all you want.

Thanos wins this as he is on a bigger playing field than either of these two. These guys can compete but when Thanos pus his mind to something he steamrolls the competition and already has devices that can spy on Doom anytime he wants.

I dont know about this one.

The thing is, Thanos has no clue that Doom and Reed are out to stop him. Thanos on the other hand probably has some plans to stop higher beings along the way during his task, but Reed and Doom play on a pretty high field too knowing what the consequences are here in this scenerio.

I just dont know. If Reed and Dooms plan doesnt work quickly, I think Thanos can recover for the win as he usually does. Thanos on the other hand might even be prepared for Reed and Doom because again, thats what he does.

Give Thanos any kind of prep time and we all know how it plays out.

I still give Thanos the majority, but its unclear as to how many he'll take.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos just fell into a momentary despair as he had been tricked. He was the only one who could do so as he earlier pointed it and Warlock later agreed with. Thanos also figured out a way to benefit from the experience. He turned it around like usual.Not just tricked, but suckered into a trap set up for the perfect victim. Thanos' "benefits" from the experience ended up being quite ephemeral in the end, as stated before. Ignore that as you wish, because although you purport to care about end results, you won't go so far as to see what ends up resulting from Thanos' new lease on life.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You are ignoring that one was trimuphant in both scenarios while one failed in both scenarios. You can ignore it all you want.You're repeating yourself again and ignoring the simple rebuttal offered to you: you're using incongruent scenarios to make a forced comparison.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos wins this as he is on a bigger playing field than either of these two. These guys can compete but when Thanos pus his mind to something he steamrolls the competition and already has devices that can spy on Doom anytime he wants. For your information, Thanos has no knowledge of Reed's and Doom's plans as per thread stipulations. Non-factor.

Originally posted by tkitna
I dont know about this one.

The thing is, Thanos has no clue that Doom and Reed are out to stop him. Thanos on the other hand probably has some plans to stop higher beings along the way during his task, but Reed and Doom play on a pretty high field too knowing what the consequences are here in this scenerio.

I just dont know. If Reed and Dooms plan doesnt work quickly, I think Thanos can recover for the win as he usually does. Thanos on the other hand might even be prepared for Reed and Doom because again, thats what he does.

Give Thanos any kind of prep time and we all know how it plays out.

I still give Thanos the majority, but its unclear as to how many he'll take.

Reed is the master at pulling shit out from his ass. If he goes into this with prep then as stipulated, he and Doom see this as yet another Universe-ending scenario as mentioned by the OP. Doom will cooperate fully because he doesn't want the universe to fall into someone else's hands.

We all know how Reed approaches universe-threatening situations when he's the main man.

That being said, there's nothing stopping Reed from conferring with the Council and retrieving some artifacts there in order to stop a universal threat, which in this particular situation, Thanos is.

Here Reed admits he (and the Council) are willing to commit murder for the greater good. They literally have multiple Ultimate Nullifiers and freely share it with other members of the group:

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1180/reedsgalactus.th.jpg

One of the Reeds has a functioning Infinity Gauntlet

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3300/reedgauntlet.th.jpg

and 616-Reed pulled out a weapons cache literally from his closet in the baxter building. Among one of the weapons: a "universal entropy gun"

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8636/reedcache.th.jpg

616-Reed has a gun literally lying in his closet that can KILL a celestial (from earth-4280)

I don't see why Reed wouldn't pull out all the stops knowing all the suffering he went through when Thanos acquired the IG. And these scans show that Reed has access, and the will, to use very powerful weapons and objects.

Reed has tech lying around that can destroy an alternate universe celestial. Thanos' own personal tech has never demonstrated anything as close to that in capability or sophistication.

^ Um... wow.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/ReedRichards01.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not just tricked, but suckered into a trap set up for the perfect victim. Thanos' "benefits" from the experience ended up being quite ephemeral in the end, as stated before. Ignore that as you wish, because although you purport to care about end results, you won't go so far as to see what ends up resulting from Thanos' new lease on life.
You're repeating yourself again and ignoring the simple rebuttal offered to you: you're using incongruent scenarios to make a forced comparison.
For your information, Thanos has no knowledge of Reed's and Doom's plans as per thread stipulations. Non-factor. Yes, he was tricked by the supreme being as he was the perfect man for the job. Warlock agreed so why won't you?

No, in both situations Thanos came out on top while in neither situation Doom failed. When Thanos in under the radar he succeeds in what he wants to do while Doom was just shy.

He doesn't really need to spy on Doom to pull this off imo anyways. It gives Doom and Reed at least some sort of chance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, he was tricked by the supreme being as he was the perfect man for the job. Warlock agreed so why won't you?

No, in both situations Thanos came out on top while in neither situation Doom failed. When Thanos in under the radar he succeeds in what he wants to do while Doom was just shy.

He doesn't really need to spy on Doom to pull this off imo anyways. It gives Doom and Reed at least some sort of chance. I already explained the reasons for why he was "perfect" several times. You think it only has to do with some kind of superiority issue based on reading one self-aggrandizing statement in isolation and ignoring context. It wasn't because he was inherently better. It was because (i) Thanos wouldn't be able to discern the trap due to his predilection for obtaining ultimate power, and (ii) his nihilistic obsessions that would inevitably lead him in his anger to destroy the universe. And that was necessary to undo the systemic flaw.

Incongruent situations. Forced comparison. Desperate repetition. Ad ignorantium.

Reed+Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos.

This is retarded together Reed and Doom would put Thanos to shame.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I already explained the reasons for why he was "perfect" several times. You think it only has to do with some kind of superiority issue based on reading one self-aggrandizing statement in isolation and ignoring context. It wasn't because he was inherently better. It was because (i) Thanos wouldn't be able to discern the trap due to his predilection for obtaining ultimate power, and (ii) his nihilistic obsessions that would inevitably lead him in his anger to destroy the universe. And that was necessary to undo the systemic flaw.
We have both posted multiple statements saying thanos was the only one with the necesarry willpower (one of them specifically stating that was why he was chosen), while all you have is a line saying he was tricked. Well, no argument there but the fact he was tricked in no way negates the reason why he and he alone could control THOTU. Neither Akhenaten nor the Celestial Order had the willpower to control THOTU in it's totality. Thanos clearly had something nobody else had, and this is outright stated to be willpower and training.

Reminds me of your argument that Beyonder>Kosmos which you have absolutely refused to substantiate beyond calling people who disagree stupid.

Originally posted by King Kandy
We have both posted multiple statements saying thanos was the only one with the necesarry willpower (one of them specifically stating that was why he was chosen), while all you have is a line saying he was tricked. Well, no argument there but the fact he was tricked in no way negates the reason why he and he alone could control THOTU. Neither Akhenaten nor the Celestial Order had the willpower to control THOTU in it's totality. Thanos clearly had something nobody else had, and this is outright stated to be willpower and training.What don't you understand about this being a self-aggrandizing statement that is essentially stripped of its reliability by subsequent reveals? I've got more than just a line that states he was tricked. I've got Thanos himself refuting himself later on and him rejecting Adam Warlock's statements. All of which is obvious because of the reveal of the story, TOAA wanted Thanos to gain THOTU and he was "perfect" for this reason:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Self-aggrandizing statement that came in toward the beginning of Thanos' narrative. Well before he finally revealed that TOAA had planned it all along, which robs this prior narration of it's inherent truthfulness when Thanos later has the epiphany that he was "perfect" for the job based on Thanos' career in nihilism, since the solution involved total destruction before recreation without the systemic flaw:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/795224_T5.jpg
Originally posted by King Kandy
Reminds me of your argument that Beyonder>Kosmos which you have absolutely refused to substantiate beyond calling people who disagree stupid. I don't recall calling anyone stupid in this thread. And I don't remember refusing to explain to you a storyline that you yourself should read again before getting into an argument with me over it. As I stated before:Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because your interpretation of what Beyonder was, pre-merger to Kosmos is wrong. Beyonder and Molecule Man were not originally two halves of a CC being that existed before them. Their merger did, however, create a fledgling CC being. This is where you cross yourself. Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= the energies that Doom stole.

Go argue with Mr Master about this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What don't you understand about this being a self-aggrandizing statement that is essentially stripped of its reliability by subsequent reveals? I've got more than just a line that states he was tricked. I've got Thanos himself refuting himself later on and him rejecting Adam Warlock's statements. All of which is obvious because of the reveal of the story, TOAA wanted Thanos to gain THOTU and he was "perfect" for this reason:
If you think the willpower line is moot and false, then WHY, pray tell, was nobody but Thanos able to handle the full power of THOTU?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't recall calling anyone stupid in this thread. And I don't remember refusing to explain to you a storyline that you yourself should read again before getting into an argument with me over it. As I stated before:
Uh huh. And HOW, is Beyonder stronger than a being composed of not only his energies but also another powerful beings? And furthermore, how is beyonder not the same as the energy Doom stole? Doom stole Beyonder's energy stated endlessly in secret wars 1 and 2.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If you think the willpower line is moot and false, then WHY, pray tell, was nobody but Thanos able to handle the full power of THOTU? in all fairness, no other character(s) ever tried to absorb THOTI in it's entirety.

Originally posted by Galan007
in all fairness, no other character(s) ever tried to absorb THOTI in it's entirety. The celestial order and Akhenaten were not able to absorb the Hotu as is was too much power(or words to that effect) thats why it took Akhenaten over 2000 years to master it which was quick compared to what it took the celestial order.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If you think the willpower line is moot and false, then WHY, pray tell, was nobody but Thanos able to handle the full power of THOTU?

Uh huh. And HOW, is Beyonder stronger than a being composed of not only his energies but also another powerful beings? And furthermore, how is beyonder not the same as the energy Doom stole? Doom stole Beyonder's energy stated endlessly in secret wars 1 and 2. Maybe because TOAA wanted Thanos to have it?

If you recently read the story at all, you'd realize how patently absurd your own incredulity with my own interpretation is. Molecule Man was far more powerful than Kosmos ever was both before and after he merged. That fact should have just informed you off the bat that you're conflating characters and concepts. In this instance, the sum was not greater than the whole of the parts. In fact, it was the exact opposite. Which is why I'm not really bothering to argue with you about this. As for your second question, when power from the Beyond Realm starts manifesting itself in our reality, achieving sentience and maturing into Cube Beings (which started happening in Secret Wars II all the way through to the emergence of Kosmos), that power starts limiting itself.

Reed + Dr.Doom would take it.

Since my name's being posted by ...

I may as well weigh in my stance.

Fact: The canon truth is that Beyonder was a partial Cube,
and Owen, was even a smaller portion of the same thing.

Fact: Beyonder and Owen merge and become a full Cube being.

Fact:

Kubik and/or Kosmos > Beyonder before merging with Owen.

Kubik and/or Kosmos > Owen before merging with Beyonder.

Fact: Owen separates from Kosmos,
but Kosmos has become a standalone Cube being and has no need of Owen to stay as is.

Kubik = Kosmos = Beyonder after separating from Owen.

Fact: Owen's potential exceeds that of Cube beings making him far more powerful,
and the reason is, because he was a human being first,
unlike Kubik, Kosmos and Beyonder who were all composed of power/energy originally and always.

Fact: Owen stomped Beyonder, could've stomped Kubik who paid homage to Owen,
and even clarified how Owen is far greater than himself or Beyonder/Kosmos,
due to the fact that he was/is a human being first.

FACT:

The future alternate of Doom 616
who was plucked from a time that he himself did NOT exist in during SSI
stole the power of a partial Cube being, and nothing more according to Canon Marvel truth.

Partial Cube being < Cube being <<< IG and/or THOTI.

One last note,

Thanos prepped to find THOTI since the Infinity Abyss,
TOAA only allowed Thanos to acquire it,
but Thanos himself had to find it,
tap it,
absorb it,
and finally harness it to become GOD of the Omniverse.

^ Well, those are your opinions. And I respect them, but flatly disagree with almost all of them.

And on that note, I'm totally willing to re-engage in a controlled debate over whether it was 616 Dr. Doom or not in Secret Wars in a battlezone-style deal. Simple to rehash our past arguments and, IMHO, the single easiest one to resolve once and for all as I believe it's ironclad how the comics present that. You let me know.

Still Reed + Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos in this thread.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I already explained the reasons for why he was "perfect" several times. You think it only has to do with some kind of superiority issue based on reading one self-aggrandizing statement in isolation and ignoring context. It wasn't because he was inherently better. It was because (i) Thanos wouldn't be able to discern the trap due to his predilection for obtaining ultimate power, and (ii) his nihilistic obsessions that would inevitably lead him in his anger to destroy the universe. And that was necessary to undo the systemic flaw.

Incongruent situations. Forced comparison. Desperate repetition. Ad ignorantium.

Reed+Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos. No, you took a few scans from Thanos when he realized the predicament he was in.

He was simply angry at them for challenging him when he didn't demand worship or anything from them it had nothing to do with his nihilistic nature. They attacked, he got angry, and simply kept on destroying.

Thanos was chosen because he was the only one who could master the energies and fix the flaw even the supreme being couldn't. Thanos also figured out a way to survive and benefit from doing so.

No, that has yet to be proven. Thanos has always been a bigger player than both and hasn't met his match yet when he puts his mind to something. Thanos is simply above them and would steamroll them if he put his mind to it.Originally posted by iceman24567
This is retarded together Reed and Doom would put Thanos to shame. When are you ever going to prove anything. All you do is post statements never backed by anything.Originally posted by Galan007
in all fairness, no other character(s) ever tried to absorb THOTI in it's entirety. Did you miss Akh taking a whole lot of time to absorb much less power in the story? Originally posted by Mr Master
Since my name's being posted by ...

I may as well weigh in my stance.

Fact: The canon truth is that Beyonder was a partial Cube,
and Owen, was even a smaller portion of the same thing.

Fact: Beyonder and Owen merge and become a full Cube being.

Fact:

Kubik and/or Kosmos > Beyonder before merging with Owen.

Kubik and/or Kosmos > Owen before merging with Beyonder.

Fact: Owen separates from Kosmos,
but Kosmos has become a standalone Cube being and has no need of Owen to stay as is.

Kubik = Kosmos = Beyonder after separating from Owen.

Fact: Owen's potential exceeds that of Cube beings making him far more powerful,
and the reason is, because he was a human being first,
unlike Kubik, Kosmos and Beyonder who were all composed of power/energy originally and always.

Fact: Owen stomped Beyonder, could've stomped Kubik who paid homage to Owen,
and even clarified how Owen is far greater than himself or Beyonder/Kosmos,
due to the fact that he was/is a human being first.

FACT:

The future alternate of Doom 616
who was plucked from a time that he himself did NOT exist in during SSI
stole the power of a partial Cube being, and nothing more according to Canon Marvel truth.

Partial Cube being < Cube being <<< IG and/or THOTI.

One last note,

Thanos prepped to find THOTI since the Infinity Abyss,
TOAA only allowed Thanos to acquire it,
but Thanos himself had to find it,
tap it,
absorb it,
and finally harness it to become GOD of the Omniverse. You completely destroyed odg's distortions of what actually happened. Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Well, those are your opinions. And I respect them, but flatly disagree with almost all of them.

And on that note, I'm totally willing to re-engage in a controlled debate over whether it was 616 Dr. Doom or not in Secret Wars in a battlezone-style deal. Simple to rehash our past arguments and, IMHO, the single easiest one to resolve once and for all as I believe it's ironclad how the comics present that. You let me know.

Still Reed + Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos in this thread. You haven't proven anything of the sort. A motivated Thanos has warranted universal attention how many times when he wants something? These two are simply in over their head.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, that has yet to be proven. Thanos has always been a bigger player than both and hasn't met his match yet when he puts his mind to something. Thanos is simply above them and would steamroll them if he put his mind to it.Thanos being a bigger player than Reed is debatable, even on the pure macro scale. This isn't Thanos prepping against Reed and Doom. It's Reed and Doom prepping against Thanos. That's several times you've obfuscated the circumstances set by the thread starter.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you miss Akh taking a whole lot of time to absorb much less power in the story?Galan007 can speak for himself, but you should consider that Akhenaten was a normal human Egyptian schlub.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You completely destroyed odg's distortions of what actually happened.

You haven't proven anything of the sort. A motivated Thanos has warranted universal attention how many times when he wants something? These two are simply in over their head. If you'd like, then you and I can do a controlled battlezone-style debate over whether it was 616 Doom in Secret Wars.

Frankly, I've never found attention-gaining to be absolutely indicative of any substance. A child crying wolf gets a lot of attention too. That result doesn't necessarily imbue his actions with any inherent meaningfulness though.

OneDumb = awesome

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Well, those are your opinions. And I respect them, but flatly disagree with almost all of them.

And on that note, I'm totally willing to re-engage in a controlled debate over whether it was 616 Dr. Doom or not in Secret Wars in a battlezone-style deal. Simple to rehash our past arguments and, IMHO, the single easiest one to resolve once and for all as I believe it's ironclad how the comics present that. You let me know.

Still Reed + Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos in this thread.

OneDumbGo, I like how you debate and I think your pretty versed in comics. However, on this one, I have to disagree with you. Not entirely but with some key points. First, it was Thanos who was self angradizing it was Warlock who SPECIFICALLY SAID "You were choosen because of your WILL Titan" That statement makes its clear that NOT EVERYBODY was up to the job. Period. That is undebatable. Whether or not anybody else could have is speculation. What we do know is not all and most couldn't or else there would be no need for such a statement. It further goes on to say he was the man for the job because of his experience with an Ultimate Power. Again, this isn't boasting, this is just Thanos speaking the truth. He's had a ultimate power before correct? Therefore, there isn't anything false or exaggerating going on here. Now, while he was choose and I believe it was meant for him to find it. He was still IMO, the only one, or one of the only ones, able to do the job. Saying he was just boasting and trying to throw out CANON NARRATION for your own purposes and interrupation is unsound and invalid. As you should very well know, there are multiple fallacies occuring when you do that. Point being, some of what your saying is true and facts, however as I pointed out there are parts that are flat wrong.

KuRuPt Thanosi: Well, I appreciate your position. However, let me present a couple of considerations:

1) The "canon narration" is by Thanos, and it does come early on in the storyline. Just by virtue of it being self-narration, that should immediately force you to consider whether or not it is self-aggrandization.
2) At the same time, Thanos attaches the adjective, "seemingly," to "impossible feat," and you can read that to be an absolute qualifier to the entire statement.
3) Later on, he ultimately reveals he was completely set up by TOAA. Taken together, I think it's very reasonable to argue that these circumstances could cast doubt on the earlier self-narration's reliability.

Now, taking all that into consideration, the main reason I think that TOAA's set-up should be doubted for its reliability is because of how 4) Thanos, himself, characterizes the entire ordeal. I've posted his words several times before. He himself does not consider the whole affair to be worthy of any acclaim.

Now, in response to your point about Warlock's statement, the same exact reasoning applies. I do characterize Adam Warlock as someone whose statements should be reliable, all things considered equal. However, here, Thanos outright rejects Adam Warlock's characterization.

Taken altogether, while it's possible Thanos was the only one capable because of his prodigious will, there are too many circumstances that cast that premise into doubt for my tastes. Furthermore, while I have been defending my positions vigorously, I am not discounting Thanos' will completely. He's got plenty of willpower feats absent such circumstances. And neither do I characterize his statement as complete bs'ing. Indeed, I interpreted his use of the phrase "seemingly impossible" as a very deliberate qualifier, i.e., "there's a catch though."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
KuRuPt Thanosi: Well, I appreciate your position. However, let me present a couple of considerations:

1) The "canon narration" is by Thanos, and it does come early on in the storyline. Just by virtue of it being self-narration, that should immediately force you to consider whether or not it is self-aggrandization.
2) At the same time, Thanos attaches the adjective, "seemingly," to "impossible feat," and you can read that to be an absolute qualifier to the entire statement.
3) Later on, he ultimately reveals he was completely set up by TOAA. Taken together, I think it's very reasonable to argue that these circumstances could cast doubt on the earlier self-narration's reliability.

Now, taking all that into consideration, the main reason I think that TOAA's set-up should be doubted for its reliability is because of how 4) Thanos, himself, characterizes the entire ordeal. I've posted his words several times before. He himself does not consider the whole affair to be worthy of any acclaim.

Now, in response to your point about Warlock's statement, the same exact reasoning applies. I do characterize Adam Warlock as someone whose statements should be reliable, all things considered equal. However, here, Thanos outright rejects Adam Warlock's characterization.

Taken altogether, while it's possible Thanos was the only one capable because of his prodigious will, there are too many circumstances that cast that premise into doubt for my tastes. Furthermore, while I have been defending my positions vigorously, I am not discounting Thanos' will completely. He's got plenty of willpower feats absent such circumstances. And neither do I characterize his statement as complete bs'ing. Indeed, I interpreted his use of the phrase "seemingly impossible" as a very deliberate qualifier, i.e., "there's a catch though."

Well my friend, we aren't that far off on our positions. I do believe Thanos was meant to find it by the TOAA, and that alone can make for some quantifiers. I don't think it was some great prep work on Thanos part to find it and acquire it. It think that he was choosen to do so. We are on the same page on that. What I would have you consider is this... You can't really call Thanos saying he was choosen because of his experience with Ultimate Power.. self aggrandizing. He wasn't boasting about his feats and experience with the IG just stating a fact on why he believes he was choosen. That seems to fit perfectly with certain requirements to wield such an awesome power. It is very logical to think he was choosen because of such experiences. I don't consider that self aggrandizing. Furthermore, consider that he was also confused once he figured out he was choosen to find the Heart and that by itself through him for a loop. He then didn't know what to believe. However, as you point out, Warlock is a very reliable source and he clearly feels Thanos was choosen because of his will. That alone might not be enough if he didn't have the Will-power feats you mention. However, he does, and thus that fits perfectly with another requirement to wield such a power. All in all, I think we both agree on most things.. just interrupt some lines differently. Good to see you back man

Besides, doesnt Reed own a infinity gem now anyway?

By the way... considering the stipulations of the thread... I think Doom and Reed would win. Both top tier in the intellect and prep department. That would give them the majority for an unaware Thanos.

Originally posted by Nihilist
The celestial order and Akhenaten were not able to absorb the Hotu as is was too much power(or words to that effect) thats why it took Akhenaten over 2000 years to master it which was quick compared to what it took the celestial order. Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you miss Akh taking a whole lot of time to absorb much less power in the story? it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Galan007
it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.


While everything you said is true that nobody else has done such a thing I would point a few things out my friend. First, we've seen what happened to Doom when he tried to gain the Beyonders power... Not the same power to be sure, but a similar "God" like power. Furthermore, the story to me makes it clear that Thanos was CHOOSEN because of his will and experience with an ultimate power. Those things wouldn't have been said if just anybody could do it. That imo is also a bit on the ludicrous side to assume. Not saying you are, just saying.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
First, we've seen what happened to Doom when he tried to gain the Beyonders power... Not the same power to be sure, but a similar "God" like power. ODG has addressed this.

Originally posted by Mindset
ODG has addressed this.

I saw. Nobody is disputing Doom's will and certainly not me. As a matter a fact, I gave them the win. However, he wasn't able to handle the power and that is what the comic portrayed. Regardless, I wasn't comparing him to Thanos. Just saying that others have tried to gain such powers and weren't able to control them. They aren't even the same powers or circumstances as I said.

Originally posted by Galan007
it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous. Thanos specifically states that the celestial order had to filter the hotu power and absorb it through instruments because they could not physically accept the naked energies, yet Thanos had spent his entire life housing massive of might within his physical self.

He also stated that he alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat(when he states this he had already absorbed the power allowing the knowledge of the what,when and how of the situation)

Originally posted by Galan007
in all fairness, no other character(s) ever tried to absorb THOTI in it's entirety. You said characters while Akh was another character. Thanos had the will and the training alone to accomplish this. It was explained in the story and backed up by Warlock that Thanos was the man for the job. If you want to ignore all that and form your own opinions by all means do so.

Originally posted by Galan007
it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous. There.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanos being a bigger player than Reed is debatable, even on the pure macro scale. This isn't Thanos prepping against Reed and Doom. It's Reed and Doom prepping against Thanos. That's several times you've obfuscated the circumstances set by the thread starter.
Galan007 can speak for himself, but you should consider that Akhenaten was a normal human Egyptian schlub.
If you'd like, then you and I can do a controlled battlezone-style debate over whether it was 616 Doom in Secret Wars.

Frankly, I've never found attention-gaining to be absolutely indicative of any substance. A child crying wolf gets a lot of attention too. That result doesn't necessarily imbue his actions with any inherent meaningfulness though. Thanos is going after a prize for so he will be prepared for whatever comes his way. He won't be sitting on his ass like he was when Thor was teleported right in his living room. He even easily dealt with him which Strange was unable to do without being prepared.

He said no other characters. He was wrong.

I already have a battlezone coming up. I don't have any time to spare. Feel free to ask Mr. Master though.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I saw. Nobody is disputing Doom's will and certainly not me. As a matter a fact, I gave them the win. However, he wasn't able to handle the power and that is what the comic portrayed. Regardless, I wasn't comparing him to Thanos. Just saying that others have tried to gain such powers and weren't able to control them. They aren't even the same powers or circumstances as I said. Yea, ODG addressed why Doom wasn't able to handle the power.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, ODG addressed why Doom wasn't able to handle the power.

His interpretation?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because he was an incomplete being, as explained completely in Fantastic Four #319. Molecule Man reveals that Doom would have controlled it had he been complete.
...

Originally posted by Mindset
...

A recton which while valid, doesn't change the fact that at the time he wasn't made to handle the power because he couldn't. A lot of things were rectonned and that had to be as well.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A recton which while valid, doesn't change the fact that at the time he wasn't made to handle the power because he couldn't. A lot of things were rectonned and that had to be as well.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well my friend, we aren't that far off on our positions. I do believe Thanos was meant to find it by the TOAA, and that alone can make for some quantifiers. I don't think it was some great prep work on Thanos part to find it and acquire it. It think that he was choosen to do so. We are on the same page on that. What I would have you consider is this... You can't really call Thanos saying he was choosen because of his experience with Ultimate Power.. self aggrandizing. He wasn't boasting about his feats and experience with the IG just stating a fact on why he believes he was choosen. That seems to fit perfectly with certain requirements to wield such an awesome power. It is very logical to think he was choosen because of such experiences. I don't consider that self aggrandizing. Furthermore, consider that he was also confused once he figured out he was choosen to find the Heart and that by itself through him for a loop. He then didn't know what to believe. However, as you point out, Warlock is a very reliable source and he clearly feels Thanos was choosen because of his will. That alone might not be enough if he didn't have the Will-power feats you mention. However, he does, and thus that fits perfectly with another requirement to wield such a power. All in all, I think we both agree on most things.. just interrupt some lines differently. Good to see you back man Well, to the extent that you and others believe that he was literally stating truth when he stated that only he could do it (without the "seemingly" qualifier), then it is boasting. Whether its completely justified is difficult to discern with so many surrounding circumstances. Also, a minor nitpick, but I don't believe he was speaking of the Infinity Gauntlet experience, since that involved external control and Thanos is referring to storing energies within his person (this doesn't necessarily diminish his long career of personally storing energies in his person, mind you). In any case, the statement's truth is just not reliable enough for me given TOAA's deliberate machinations and what appears to be Thanos' own refutations/rebuffings. And I think you'll agree, unless Thanos' will made him the only man for the job, the entire thing is a non-feat orchestrated by THOTU. We'll just have to agree to disagree in this instance, friend.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A recton which while valid, doesn't change the fact that at the time he wasn't made to handle the power because he couldn't. A lot of things were rectonned and that had to be as well. Not quite able to discern what your position is on this, but in IMHO, it's not fair to use Doom's inability to contain Beyonder's power as support for the congruence between Thanos handling THOTU and Akhenaten taking 1000 years to handle a fraction of THOTU. Due to Beyonder's actions right before sending him back to Secret Wars, Doom was missing a fair portion of his memories and this resulted in him being "incomplete." As Beyonder was about to restore the memories, Molecule Man and the Cube Beings intercede and they and Doom all confirm that given another chance, Doom would be able to handle Beyonder's energies:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Stats/th_DoomWill02a319.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Stats/th_DoomWill03319.jpg

So correlating Doom's original performance with Beyonder's energies (where he's handicapped) and Akhenaten's performance (a normal ancient Egyptian schlub) and comparing them to Thanos' ability to acclimate to THOTU immediately is a bit of a forced comparison.

Originally posted by Mindset

Yea, ODG addressed why Doom wasn't able to handle the power.
He addressed it with ill-information.

Originally posted by Galan007

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.
That's what the story makes us understand though.

So yea, ONLY Thanos was able to handle the power.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

While everything you said is true that nobody else has done such a thing I would point a few things out my friend. First, we've seen what happened to Doom when he tried to gain the Beyonders power... Not the same power to be sure, but a similar "God" like power. Furthermore, the story to me makes it clear that Thanos was CHOOSEN because of his will and experience with an ultimate power. Those things wouldn't have been said if just anybody could do it. That imo is also a bit on the ludicrous side to assume. Not saying you are, just saying.

Originally posted by Nihilist

Thanos specifically states that the celestial order had to filter the hotu power and absorb it through instruments because they could not physically accept the naked energies, yet Thanos had spent his entire life housing massive of might within his physical self.

He also stated that he alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat(when he states this he had already absorbed the power allowing the knowledge of the what,when and how of the situation)

Originally posted by quanchi112

I already have a battlezone coming up. I don't have any time to spare.

Feel free to ask Mr. Master though.


I'll take that up any day.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Not quite able to discern what your position is on this, but in IMHO, it's not fair to use Doom's inability to contain Beyonder's power as support for the congruence between Thanos handling THOTU and Akhenaten taking 1000 years to handle a fraction of THOTU. Due to Beyonder's actions right before sending him back to Secret Wars, Doom was missing a fair portion of his memories and this resulted in him being "incomplete." As Beyonder was about to restore the memories, Molecule Man and the Cube Beings intercede and they and Doom all confirm that given another chance, Doom would be able to handle Beyonder's energies:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Stats/th_DoomWill02a319.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Stats/th_DoomWill03319.jpg

So correlating Doom's original performance with Beyonder's energies (where he's handicapped) and Akhenaten's performance (a normal ancient Egyptian schlub) and comparing them to Thanos' ability to acclimate to THOTU immediately is a bit of a forced comparison.
None of those scans confirm
that Doom would be able to handle a partial Cube being's power (what Doom stole)

According to MM only Doom thought he would be able to handle it.

MM, Kubik and Shaper made no assertions as to whether that was true or not:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/788273_FF.jpg

"you were incomplete, just as you were when you tried to sustain his power before,
but I can see that once you have a complete mind,
you expect you'll know how to do it right."


You can't say Doom would be able to contain Beyonder's power in FF#319,
and somehow relate that to the power he couldn't contain in Secret Wars.

Secret Wars Beyonder is Pre-Retcon Beyonder,
while FF#319 Beyonder, is the Retconned-severely Depowered version.

In fact, if we take into consideration FF#319,
Beyonder is below The Living Tribunal and Eternity:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/788162_FF319-30.jpg

Beyonder also got stomped by Kubik, a Full-Cube Being

In fact, he was a HALF-Cube Being, so Doom stole a HALF-Cube Being's power,
and of course, with the surrounding stipulations that helped him achieve this goal.

.............................................................................


Also, according to FF#319 once can easily come the conclusion,
that Doom was actually allowed to take Beyonder's power,
by Beyonder's own un-conscious will, according to MM:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/788163_FF319-31.jpg

"you still don't understand desire, if you had understood,
there would have been no Secret Wars.
As a tiny portion of the Beyonders' force,
you un-consciously wanted to satisfy others' desires"


========================================


This whole scenario is ridiculous,
(due to DeFalco's hate to retcon Beyonder, forcing Englehart to write a stupid story)
because Doom's mind wasn't incomplete,
heck, that wasn't even 616 Doom in SSI, not a fragment or any part of any kind.

Doom's complete mind, not a part, but all, was chillin in McArthur's body
back in the 616 Reality.

While the Doom in SSI on Battleworld (a completely separate/different Universe)
was a Doom from the Future,
who did not exist there, since well, Doom's body was dead, and his mind was in another's body.

This again leads back to Beyonder himself coercing Doom's feat,
like,
if it were not for Beyonder
literally replacing Doom 616 with his alternate non-existent future-self,
Doom 616 would have had absolutely nothing to do withy stealing B's power.

Yea, after the fact,
after the feat was completed by the Future Doom that never was,
then Beyonder (later in the future)
replaces Doom 616's history with the one that stole his power,
NOW making Doom 616 the culprit,
but before that, 616 Doom had nothing to do with stealing B's power.

That's a fact.

Furthermore, in fact,

In Marvel comics, if you're situated in the future,
then you're from another Timeline, (alternate future) That's it.

Beyonder plucked Secret Wars Doom from the future, (another Timeline)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/750692_b1qw4.jpg



While 616 Doom was left on Earth 616, chillin with McArthur's wife:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746807_Doom2.jpg



This is why
616 Doom never saw, or met the Beyonder until the Beyonder was retconned:

(this is YEARS after SSI or II)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744420_beyondercontrolovertimelifejo7.jpg

It's right there in plain english!

Molecule Man seems to think Doom will be able to control Beyonder's powers with a complete mind, or else he would not try to stop Beyonder from giving him his power.

What wrong information did ODG put forth?

Originally posted by Mindset

Molecule Man seems to think Doom will be able to control Beyonder's powers with a complete mind, or else he would not try to stop Beyonder from giving him his power.

What wrong information did ODG put forth?
I'd like for you to point out to me where does Owen even allude to this idea?

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/788273_FF.jpg

"you were incomplete, just as you were when you tried to sustain his power before,
but I can see that once you have a complete mind,
you expect you'll know how to do it right."


I know he says Doom expects to,
but I don't see here, or any other Marvel comic where Owen speaks for himself,
or Kubik affirms what Doom expects,
or any other being.

btw. Why did he not want Doom to get B's power again?

Heck, anyone can destroy a Universe with B's power,
being able to handle it or not,
just due to an after-effect or improper thought.

So yea, I can see the concern,
trillions upon trillions of lives at stake.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

^ Well, those are your opinions.
And I respect them, but flatly disagree with almost all of them.
My opinions?



Everything I stated is a Marvel canon fact,
and all that I said is supported with On Panel proof,
and further confirmed in official Marvel Handbooks.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And on that note, I'm totally willing to re-engage in a controlled debate over whether it was 616 Dr. Doom or not in Secret Wars in a battlezone-style deal. Simple to rehash our past arguments and, IMHO, the single easiest one to resolve once and for all You let me know.
Meh, haven't the time nowadays,
this is why I'm seldom seen now,
but uhh,
when and if I find the time,
I will gladly also be willing to engage in presenting the Marvel canon truth/facts
as I believe it's ironclad how the comics present them in my favor.

^ Yes, your opinions. Which I flatly disagree with.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I already have a battlezone coming up. I don't have any time to spare.

Feel free to ask Mr. Master though. Originally posted by Mr Master


I'll take that up any day. Originally posted by Mr Master
Meh, haven't the time nowadays,
this is why I'm seldom seen now,
but uhh,
when and if I find the time,
I will gladly also be willing to engage in presenting the Marvel canon truth/facts
as I believe it's ironclad how the comics present them in my favor. I'm confused. Did you change your mind on doing a battlezone with me? If so, very well. I put it forth because I didn't want to derail this thread further. You let me know when you have time.

Also, back on topic, Reed + Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, the story to me makes it clear that Thanos was CHOOSEN because of his will and experience with an ultimate power. Those things wouldn't have been said if just anybody could do it. That imo is also a bit on the ludicrous side to assume. Not saying you are, just saying. i don't recall stating 'just anybody' could have pulled off that feat - thanos was certainly one of the select few.

that, however, was not my original point.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Thanos specifically states that the celestial order had to filter the hotu power and absorb it through instruments because they could not physically accept the naked energies, yet Thanos had spent his entire life housing massive of might within his physical self.

He also stated that he alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat(when he states this he had already absorbed the power allowing the knowledge of the what,when and how of the situation) random statements from one of the most arrogant characters in marvel, pertaining to his own personal abilities, is hardly enough 'evidence' for me to think he was the "only" character capable of accomplishing said feat.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

^ Yes, your opinions. Which I flatly disagree with.
Not according to Marvel Comics, & official Marvel Handbooks, but hey,
to each his own.

I suppose when I post the scans accompanying my "opinions"
you'll have a change of heart,
then again knowing some at kmc,
perhaps not.

Still think you're a true debator friend,
we just happen to flatly disagree on this particular point.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm confused. Did you change your mind on doing a battlezone with me? If so, very well. I put it forth because I didn't want to derail this thread further. You let me know when you have time.
Heh, funny.

I meant any day I have time,
sorry for not including that detail.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Also, back on topic, Reed + Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos.
Meh, more like Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone.

The guy has a detailed map of every corner and atom of the freakin Omniverse,
in his head.

The Guy has been stamped as something special by TOAA himself,
in person no less.

The Guy has tech that can turn Galactus into a human being,
tech that can scour the MultiverseS,
tech that can rearrange reality on a cosmic scale
or tech that can simply sunder the Omniverse.

And best of all,
the guy is Marvel's #1 plot device.

Guest ya didn't know,
but Reed happens to be one of my favorite cats in Marvel.

Doom and Reed still win this. They have prep, and Thanos has not yet achieved ultimate power. The huge factor is that he is not specifically aware of their designs against him. Reed will pull some plot device out of nowhere and get this done and finished. The defense of "Thanos plans for every eventuality" does not hold up because he certainly failed to take into account Annihilus' true plans (to his horror), the arrival of Drax in a completely untimely manner (a severe miscalculation that was ultimately FATAL) and other instances.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Guest ya didn't know,
but Reed happens to be one of my favorite cats in Marvel.

I'm waiting for the day that Marvel uses Reed as a plot device to seduce any and all women in the MU. This would literally cause reality shattering events. The man can manipulate any part of his body. I'm surprised Sue isn't severely insecure.

I agree that Doom and Reed would win this.

Some great points made in this thread....Reed & Doom win this i.m.o