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I've always couldn't decide which is stronger - The Force or Magic? For example, could a Jedi Master like LOTF/FOTJ Luke or Yoda defeat a Wizard like Saruman or Gandalf? Maybe a Sith like Sidious or Caedus vs Morgoth? Any help guys.

First strike = first win.

The force is limited. Magic, (i.e. Hogwarts magic), is practically limitless. Magic trumps the force.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The force is limited. Magic, (i.e. Hogwarts magic), is practically limitless. Magic trumps the force. Pretty much. Even assuming that both combatants had intimate knowledge of each others' practise, and were aware of the seriousness of the situation, someone like Voldemort doesn't even need words to kill or maim. Whoever hits first.

As for the Istari: their magic seems to exist on a more incorporeal plain, with little immediate effects shown in a purely combative sense. For instance, what could Gandalf or Saruman do to incapacitate or kill Sidious or Luke before the other does the same?

What about Sith Sorcery?

The force isn't limited. The user is limited. Don't mess with Yoda's teachings!

Could it be argued that Magic is a variation of the Force? Could an Istari for example defend himself against a Force Storm? Caedus and Luke were both able to create Force Illusions. How would they defend themselves against that?

Most Force-users would kick the crap outta an Istari.

And yeah magic may be limitless (depending on its form) but the Force is a little more combat applicable as it increases reaction, agility, precog etc, not to mention it has the advantage of being a power that a jedi can call quickly, whereas most magic needs words or movements. All Sidious has to do is hold up his hands and blast in Voldemort's general direction for instance, whereas Volde has to hold up his wand, aim and say/think words. And hes already at a disadvantage to Sidious' reflexes and speed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Most Force-users would kick the crap outta an Istari.
I call bull shit. Yes, Luke and Sidious may be beyond an Istari, but the average force user... hell no! Gandalf shows quite a bit of power in the novels. In the Hobbit he throws some fire balls and summons a "flash" that kills numerous Orcs while somehow teleporting himself out as well. There are many other examples of his magic throughout the novel such as holding Saruman aginst his will. He is also more poweful than Galadriel ans she was able to lay bare the pits of Dol Guldour by herself.

Depends heavily on what Force user and what "magic" world you are talking about.

No, magic is not limitless in most fantasy stories. Otherwise, why doesn't Gandalf blink and destroy all of Mordor's armies? Its power varies heavily: in many fantasy stories all magic allows you to do is to cast fireballs and open locks, but in Harry Potter magic allows you to do a huge variety of things.

Let's just take FOTJ Luke...

Luke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost all DnD-style wizards

Luke >> Gandalf

Luke <= Dumbuldore

Originally posted by ares834
I call bull shit. Yes, Luke and Sidious may be beyond an Istari, but the average force user... hell no! Gandalf shows quite a bit of power in the novels. In the Hobbit he throws some fire balls and summons a "flash" that kills numerous Orcs while somehow teleporting himself out as well. There are many other examples of his magic throughout the novel such as holding Saruman aginst his will. He is also more poweful than Galadriel ans she was able to lay bare the pits of Dol Guldour by herself.

most of what you mentioned would be kind of useless in a fight against a jedi.

the problem with LotR magic is that a lot of it is implied and subtle. very little actual practical combat abilities are available to wizards that would be helpful in a modern day environment. for all of gandalfs abilities even as gandalf the white he was pretty much getting ready to die in minas tirith against the orcs. the sheer fact that he fights with his staff and a sword a thousand times more often than he uses magic pretty much speaks for itself.

Enhanced abilities = First attack = Force Lightning/Force Push/Pwnage.

Now I admit it would be hrd for a jedi given how crap they are with offensive force power, but a blood-lusted jedi versus a blood-lusted wizard would equal a Zannah style curbstomp of a broken neck.

And Gandalf never did fireballs. He set some pinecones on fire.



I'd put it more like this:

Luke>>>>>>Gandalf

Luke>>>Voldemort

Luke<<<<<<<<<<<Most DnD wizards (Issacs magic missle storm would pwn the shit outta Luke) -Though Luke would win a ready, set, go fight due to speed and reflexs.

Originally posted by Nephthys



I'd put it more like this:

Luke>>>>>>Gandalf

Luke>>>Voldemort

Luke<<<<<<<<<<<Most DnD wizards (Issacs magic missle storm would pwn the shit outta Luke) -Though Luke would win a ready, set, go fight due to speed and reflexs.

Probably true

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Dunno...killing curse?

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I didn't mean the top tier wizards, I mean your average wizard from DnD type RPGs or video games.

In most RPGs/games, magic users are on par with pre-gunpowder age troops, or otherwise everyone would choose the mages. A sword wielding dude can stand up to a mage of equal level/experience.

Jedi can defeat large groups of space-age soldiers with blasters.

The average Baldurs Gate 2 Mage could beat Luke, considering almost all of them have Contingency-Stoneskin + Protec from Non-mag weapons set to on sight. That would make them pretty hard to hurt, then they'd Magic missile him to death (Seriously, Magic missile is one of the best spells ever).

A high level Mage seriously would be a curbstomp. Contingency- Time Stop/Horrid Wilting = a helpless Luke/Luke having all the moisture in his body instantly evapotated.

And those warriors are meta-humans (Minsc can easily bend matal bars) usually buffed and wielding powerful magical artifacts. Even so a mage can usually kick their asses.

And Voldemort would get a neck-breaking before he even lifts his arm.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The average Baldurs Gate 2 Mage could beat Luke, considering almost all of them have Contingency-Stoneskin + Protec from Non-mag weapons set to on sight. That would make them pretty hard to hurt, then they'd Magic missile him to death (Seriously, Magic missile is one of the best spells ever).

A high level Mage seriously would be a curbstomp. Contingency- Time Stop/Horrid Wilting = a helpless Luke/Luke having all the moisture in his body instantly evapotated.

And those warriors are meta-humans (Minsc can easily bend matal bars) usually buffed and wielding powerful magical artifacts. Even so a mage can usually kick their asses.

And Voldemort would get a neck-breaking before he even lifts his arm.

I dunno much about Baldur's Gate series, but:

What is Contingency?

What is Stoneskin? I'd guess from the name that it's a defensive spell, but can it protect against the Force/a lightsaber?

Does the protec from non-mag weapons work on lightsabers or anything of that strength?

Does time stop work on everyone?

Luke w/the Force is also a meta-human.

Contingency is a spell that stores two other spells that activate in pre-set condition, mostly upon sighting an enemy, these spells are released instantly, meaning for a Time-stop, time will instantly stop upon sighting an enemy. Immunity to Non-magical/Magical weapon is a favourite as it makes you immune to all phyical attacks.

Stoneskin basically covers your body in wieghtless stone. It wont stop a lightsaber (Protect from Non-mag would though, as it stops ANY non-magical weapon every time) but it would stop the more direct force attacks.

Time Stop only doesn't work on 4 people in Baldurs Gate 2. Ones a God, ones a Demi-God, ones a Uber Demon and the other is immune to magic (but is still a big pansy anyway). But it only lasts about 6 seconds.

Yeah, but aren't we talking Force vs Magic?

Anyway with Contingency, any high-level Mage could curstomp Luke. You set to any instant death spell and he dies or just disintergrate the bugger.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Contingency is a spell that stores two other spells that activate in pre-set condition, mostly upon sighting an enemy, these spells are released instantly, meaning for a Time-stop, time will instantly stop upon sighting an enemy. Immunity to Non-magical/Magical weapon is a favourite as it makes you immune to all phyical attacks.


How long does the time stop last for? Does it last on everyone? How often can you use it? How much time does it take to cast it?

Originally posted by Nephthys

Stoneskin basically covers your body in wieghtless stone. It wont stop a lightsaber (Protect from Non-mag would though, as it stops ANY non-magical weapon every time) but it would stop the more direct force attacks.


Can the mage still move? And if it's WEIGHTLESS then Luke will be able to easily fling her around the entire battlefield, lift her up into the sky, and then slam her into the ground at very fast speeds because...well, it's weightless.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Yeah, but aren't we talking Force vs Magic?

Anyway with Contingency, any high-level Mage could curstomp Luke. You set to any instant death spell and he dies or just disintergrate the bugger.

Does this instant death spell always work on anyone?

6 seconds, more than enough time to use another 2 spells. Yes, all who aren't protected by game-boss shields. Depends on the level of a Mage. Max is 6 I think, though it might actually be limited to just 2. Each spell takes 3 secs to cast, but Contingency makes it instant.



Yeah. He could, but the mage is utterly protected from anything that doesn't specifically break the stone, so she wouldn't feel jack shit and would be able to hit him with a spell while he was doing it.



No, they have to take fortitude tests. But seriously, if that doesn't work there are dozens of other ways. Horrid Wiling instantly evaporates all moisture in a body. Meteor devestates everything in a 400 m radius. Imprisonment seals the victim entombed in a state of suspended animation in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth. This is unblockable. Polymorth turns its vitim into a squirrel. Disintergrate, well, guess.

There are also several low-level spells tha could do it. Combustion makes the target spontaneously burst into flame. Theres a spell taht makes the targets blood liteally boil. Horrid Flayng instantly flays a victim.

Originally posted by Nephthys
6 seconds, more than enough time to use another 2 spells. Yes, all who aren't protected by game-boss shields. Depends on the level of a Mage. Max is 6 I think, though it might actually be limited to just 2. Each spell takes 3 secs to cast, but Contingency makes it instant.



Now, not to be nickpicky, but I'm pretty sure that Luke Skywalker would count as a "boss battle". Don't all powerful named opponents do?

Originally posted by Nephthys


Yeah. He could, but the mage is utterly protected from anything that doesn't specifically break the stone, so she wouldn't feel jack shit and would be able to hit him with a spell while he was doing it.



Right, and being thrown up in the air and then slammed down to the ground at extremely fast speeds could probably break stone, as could Force attacks (which have broken through SPACE AGE durasteel before). And it's pretty hard to cast a spell when you're getting flung around at very high speeds.

Originally posted by Nephthys



No, they have to take fortitude tests. But seriously, if that doesn't work there are dozens of other ways. Horrid Wiling instantly evaporates all moisture in a body. Meteor devestates everything in a 400 m radius. Imprisonment seals the victim entombed in a state of suspended animation in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth. This is unblockable. Polymorth turns its vitim into a squirrel. Disintergrate, well, guess.

With the Force to enhance him, Luke could have a "fortitude" of supernatural levels.

Also, all of these could simply be negated by Luke Emerald Lightning-ing the mage as soon as the battle starts.

No, becuase that only works in a video game and all of them had legitimate reasons -' Ones a God, ones a Demi-God, ones a Uber Demon and the other is immune to magic as well as a fledgling Demi-God(but is still a big pansy anyway)'.



I agree. I have though remembered that the Mage could simply go Etheral, which would mean that all of Lukes attacks miss, Force or otherwise.



Yeah, which makes it hard to use game rules in actual battles. Personally I'd ignore it but whatevs.



Which could equally be negated by Contingency stopping time, disintegrating him, imprisoning him, nuking him, flaying him and petrifying him the Instant the battle starts.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel

the problem with LotR magic is that a lot of it is implied and subtle. very little actual practical combat abilities are available to wizards that would be helpful in a modern day environment. for all of gandalfs abilities even as gandalf the white he was pretty much getting ready to die in minas tirith against the orcs. the sheer fact that he fights with his staff and a sword a thousand times more often than he uses magic pretty much speaks for itself.
The reason he isn't flining around spells like any DnD wizard is becuase he was forbiden to use his true power against Sauron. Not because magic isn't useful in a fight ecuase as we see in the Silmarillion it is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, becuase that only works in a video game and all of them had legitimate reasons -' Ones a God, ones a Demi-God, ones a Uber Demon and the other is immune to magic as well as a fledgling Demi-God(but is still a big pansy anyway)'.



I agree. I have though remembered that the Mage could simply go Etheral, which would mean that all of Lukes attacks miss, Force or otherwise.



Yeah, which makes it hard to use game rules in actual battles. Personally I'd ignore it but whatevs.



Which could equally be negated by Contingency stopping time, disintegrating him, imprisoning him, nuking him, flaying him and petrifying him the Instant the battle starts.

So then what stops you from just freezing every enemy and dismembering them? Because it often takes multiple hits to kill an enemy, right? Well, although that's the gameplay reason, surely there must be a canon explanation...

...And how long does this spell last, does it work on all attacks, etc...

Which could equally be negated to the mage being thrown across the battlefield, crushed, and lightning-ed. Or Luke creates an illusion of himself being somewhere else.

Could a Force shield protect a powerful Master, Sith or Jedi from massive damage? During the fight with Caedus, Luke raised a Force shield to protect himself from Force lightning. Could it be argued that a Force shield provide some protection against magic attacks?