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Who wins? Can the tyrant's entire empire take down the tyrant himself?

No because if they could it would have been done

Originally posted by yungz22
No because if they could it would have been done

Well, not necessarily. They would have to have organized the entire Empire to unite together. All of the citizens in the Roman Empire could probably have driven the Roman army out had they all organized together.

But if Freiza wins, then that's a little strange that the Emperor is greater than his entire empire.

Guldo Freezes Time, Captain Ginyu steals Frieza's body, Ginyu wins?

Freeza actually wins. He is far too powerful.

I actually always wondered why Ginyu never tried to switch bodies with him. I figured he was just too loyal

Or because in the time it takes he would have had his head smacked clean off his shoulders. It's not a very subtle attack.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I actually always wondered why Ginyu never tried to switch bodies with him. I figured he was just too loyal
He has the job he wants already. No need to try to become emperor.

I remember when a saiyan force tried to overthrow Frieza, he blew up their planet. Frieza was more powerful than any member of his empire, including all of them together. As for Guldo and Ginyu freezing time then switching bodies, when Guldo freezes time, he freezes everyone, so that wouldn't work.

True, Guldo has not shown to be able to exclude others from his time freezing.

Would guldo time freeze even work on freeza, krillin and gohun was moving during the time that they were frozen and freeza>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gohun and krillin so guldo would get blitzed as soon as frieza breaks out of it.

freeza had a power level of like 530,000 in lil' mode, nobody could touch him in his entire empire, ginyu was the closes at 120,000 iirc.

does his empire include his brother and father? cause those guys are stronger than him when he's small.

King Cold is apparently stronger than Mecha Freeza, according to one of the douchebags on Earth if I recall right.

If Freeza's empire includes him, Freeza loses I guess.

Originally posted by NemeBro
King Cold is apparently stronger than Mecha Freeza, according to one of the douchebags on Earth if I recall right.

If Freeza's empire includes him, Freeza loses I guess.

I don't think it would include him. King Cold didn't serve his son or anything. He was off doing his own thing while Frieza was doing his. Cold would win if he was here though.

No, Cold is not stronger than Freiza.

Cold said himself that Freiza was the strongest in the Universe.

No he didn't.

Meh. Frieza's still lucky though that his brother isn't canon.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
No he didn't.

Yes he did.

No matter whose stronger, Trunks still punked both Mecha-Frieza and his dad. Cooler was on another level altogether, and don't get started on Metal Cooler.

Damn family, all of em named after objects used to keep food and drinks refrigerated.

Just about everybody in that series was named after something.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes he did.
No he didn't. 'sides, when Frieza fought Goku (early on before he became a Super Saiyan), he commented on how Goku was the first to ever hurt him "besides my loving parents that is", indicating he was not at a power level above his father.

And Cold's Tenkaichi 3 bio said his strength is "officially greater than Frieza's or Cooler's". Not to mention..

Full Power Death Beam > either of his son's Death Beams
=D

Well the way I see it, Trunks, who was still far weaker than Goku easily took out Frieza and King Cold, Cooler took it to Goku and Vegeta.

I reakon Cooler also would step in and help his brother.

Originally posted by KingD19
Well the way I see it, Trunks, who was still far weaker than Goku easily took out Frieza and King Cold, Cooler took it to Goku and Vegeta.
I think the bio was only referring to the regular Cooler. Meta-Cooler kept becoming stronger and stronger upon regenerating his body because of the Big Gete Star correcting the flaws within his design.

Either way though, Cold is stronger than both Frieza and Cooler (in his organic form).

Originally posted by Kazenji
I reakon Cooler also would step in and help his brother.
"My brother was a pest. I would have killed him myself sooner or later."

Yeah...

Originally posted by KingD19
No matter whose stronger, Trunks still punked both Mecha-Frieza and his dad. Cooler was on another level altogether, and don't get started on Metal Cooler.

Damn family, all of em named after objects used to keep food and drinks refrigerated.

Just about everybody in that series was named after something. i guess it has something to do with the refrigerator oppressing the food inside, with the freeza familia being the masters of all the characters in their arc.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
No he didn't. 'sides, when Frieza fought Goku (early on before he became a Super Saiyan), he commented on how Goku was the first to ever hurt him "besides my loving parents that is", indicating he was not at a power level above his father.

And Cold's Tenkaichi 3 bio said his strength is "officially greater than Frieza's or Cooler's". Not to mention..

Full Power Death Beam > either of his son's Death Beams
=D


5BWa4zkqjTI

At 5:20, the scientist says, "...Lord Frieza will soon reestablish himself as the most powerful force in the universe."


It's not as thought I make this shit up.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime


Either way though, Cold is stronger than both Frieza and Cooler (in his organic form).


Where did you come up with that?? SSJ1 took out Frieza with a sword that Goku caught with no problems, and he killed King Cold with a no name energy blast. King Cold also had no feats, he was just Frieza and Coolers dad. Cooler on the other hand was whooping Goku's ass, and his cronies were taking it to the other Z Fighters.

It's obvious that Cooler was the top dog in their family, with Frieza being second because he actually did something, whereas Cold was there for a few episodes talking, then he got blasted into nothingness by Trunks.

Originally posted by dadudemon
*insert vid here*

At 5:20, the scientist says, "...Lord Frieza will soon reestablish himself as the most powerful force in the universe."


It's not as thought I make this shit up.
I wasn't saying you did , but you said it was King Cold who said Freiza was the strongest force in the universe, when in fact it was just one of his scientists who said that...

Originally posted by KingD19
Where did you come up with that??
As quoted from one of the episodes in the show...

Yamcha: "I sense another huge power, and..."
Tien: "And this one makes Frieza feel like nothing."


That was before Trunks arrived on the scene, so Cold is clearly stronger than Frieza if he can make the Z-fighters tremble even more than his son when sensing their power.

Originally posted by KingD19
SSJ1 took out Frieza with a sword that Goku caught with no problems, and he killed King Cold with a no name energy blast. King Cold also had no feats, he was just Frieza and Coolers dad.
Who is stronger in Dragon Ball is generally determined by power scaling, not feats. Frieza has better feats than Cell, but we both know Cell would beat him.

Originally posted by KingD19
Cooler on the other hand was whooping Goku's ass, and his cronies were taking it to the other Z Fighters.
Cooler wasn't whooping any ass after Goku turned Super Saiyan (assuming we're talking pre-Meta Cooler).

Originally posted by dadudemon
5BWa4zkqjTI

At 5:20, the scientist says, "...Lord Frieza will soon reestablish himself as the most powerful force in the universe."


It's not as thought I make this shit up. http://mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c329/12.html

"He's not alone! There's an even greater Ki!"

Manga>>>Anime.

Unless you think that they were talking about one of the random mooks on the ship, he was talking about King Cold.

Oh, and the vid you posted, never happened in the manga, making it noncanon filler.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
No he didn't. 'sides, when Frieza fought Goku (early on before he became a Super Saiyan), he commented on how Goku was the first to ever hurt him "besides my loving parents that is", indicating he was not at a power level above his father.

And Cold's Tenkaichi 3 bio said his strength is "officially greater than Frieza's or Cooler's". Not to mention..

Full Power Death Beam > either of his son's Death Beams
=D

The video games aren't even close to being canon...

Because Nappa is actually capable of hurting SSJ4 Gogeta, which doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by carver9
Would guldo time freeze even work on freeza, krillin and gohun was moving during the time that they were frozen and freeza>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gohun and krillin so guldo would get blitzed as soon as frieza breaks out of it.

No they weren't. Guldo just ran out of power and he had to keep letting it go since he could only do it for as long as he could hold his breath.

Originally posted by NemeBro
http://mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c329/12.html

"He's not alone! There's an even greater Ki!"

Manga>>>Anime.

Unless you think that they were talking about one of the random mooks on the ship, he was talking about King Cold.

Oh, and the vid you posted, never happened in the manga, making it noncanon filler.


I don't care. It was said in the anime. It happened. I didn't make it up.


The end.

Anime is not canon, manga is. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Anime is not canon, manga is. Deal with it.

This is the Anime versus forum.


I'm right.

Deal with it.


Edit - Unless the thread starter says the anime can't be used...it's applicable.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't care. It was said in the anime. It happened. I didn't make it up.

You claimed that King Cold said it.

And it says "anime/manga" in the rules Peach set up.

King Cold never shown any real feats and I recall him being weaker then Freiza. Frezia would win this since his power is much greater then anyone in his Empire. This battle would be like Galactus heralds against his Galactus himself.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The video games aren't even close to being canon...

Because Nappa is actually capable of hurting SSJ4 Gogeta, which doesn't make any sense.

He's talking about the bios which are pretty accurate not the gameplay or cutscenes from the game.

Originally posted by Hellspawn28
King Cold never shown any real feats and I recall him being weaker then Freiza. Frezia would win this since his power is much greater then anyone in his Empire. This battle would be like Galactus heralds against his Galactus himself.

Both statements are incorrect.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You claimed that King Cold said it.

It doesn't matter. Me not recalling it properly doesn't mean it wasn't said. That's just me not remembering who said what, properly.



Originally posted by Kris Blaze
And it says "anime/manga" in the rules Peach set up.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It doesn't matter. Me not recalling it properly doesn't mean it wasn't said. That's just me not remembering who said what, properly. Are you arguing that it's right or just that the anime said it?

As for the fight...Since Guldo can't really harm Freeza I doubt he could do anything worthwhile 'cept hide, and since I doubt Ginyu has a chance to even hope to match Freeza's speed his body change is probably useless. So I think Freeza easily wins since the only two possible threats won't be able to do anything. Unless Guldo can hold Freeza in that attack he was holding Gohan and Krillen in before Vegeta killed him.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime



"My brother was a pest. I would have killed him myself sooner or later."

Yeah...

Then why did he go after Goku and his pals obvisouly Cooler still cares about frieze in some way.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The video games aren't even close to being canon...

Because Nappa is actually capable of hurting SSJ4 Gogeta, which doesn't make any sense.
As Wei said, that's gameplay. Bios are a different matter...

Originally posted by Hellspawn28
King Cold never shown any real feats and I recall him being weaker then Freiza.
Then you recalled wrong.

And power scaling > feats when it comes to comparing characters in Dragon Ball.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Then why did he go after Goku and his pals obvisouly Cooler still cares about frieze in some way.
I think it was more-so because of the fact Cooler's father also died (of course, he didn't know it was really Trunks from the future who killed them and not Goku).

Originally posted by Kento
Are you arguing that it's right or just that the anime said it?

For the anime, it's right. Also, it was said.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is the Anime versus forum.


I'm right.

Deal with it.


Edit - Unless the thread starter says the anime can't be used...it's applicable. AKA "NAH AH IM RYTE UR WRONG!"

You were wrong, in canon, it was never said, the manga is the original and only canon source, and in this case the anime even contradicts the manga, not even counting the fact that it was hyperbole.

Originally posted by dadudemon
For the anime, it's right. Also, it was said. There's a large chance..it's not even right for the anime. Using the English version to prove a point doesn't really work as Funimation/Ocean has a tendency to change stuff. Bardock being a genius, Over 9000, Light Speed to dodge Special Beam Cannon, Goten wishing for Gokou to be back to defeat Broli.

To be fair though, Bardock probably is a genius by virtue of how ridiculously awesome he is.

Too bad he couldn't think up a better hairdo.

The hairdo is awesome by virtue of him wearing it. estahuh

Originally posted by NemeBro
To be fair though, Bardock probably is a genius by virtue of how ridiculously awesome he is. lol I can agree with that.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The hairdo is awesome by virtue of him wearing it. estahuh
And looks better on him than it ever did on Goku, to add to that.

Indeed.

It's probably the manly scar.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c329/14.html Freeza is the strongest.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c327/7.html Freeza is the strongest.

Then, Tien says Goku is the strongest. Then, King Kai says that Goku won't be the strongest for long:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c328/2.html

Why would King Kai say that if Freeza's father was stronger than freeza? (Goku, for a while there, was about dead even with 100% Freeza, but Freeza got worn out in his 100% power state.)



Also, a way to explain Tien's statement about Freeza's father having greater ki: Freeza was mostly machine, at that point. Remember, the androids ki could not be sensed as they weren't organic. So, Freeza, being mostly machine, was not sensed as being stronger than his father, yet was supposed to be much stronger than before.


That would explain why, repeatedly, Freeza was called the strongest in the universe.


So, does that mean I win?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Indeed.

It's probably the manly scar.
Yep.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why would King Kai say that if Freeza's father was stronger than freeza?
Because King Kai (at the time) didn't know about Frieza's father, as an indirect cause of the fact Toriyama had originally planned to end the series after the Namek saga. King Cold and the characters after him weren't thought up of until later.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, a way to explain Tien's statement about Freeza's father having greater ki: Freeza was mostly machine, at that point.
But he was rebuilt stronger than he was before, as that scientist guy said. Even when Vegeta detected Mecha Frieza's power, he said he sensed that Frieza's energy level was even greater than it was before...

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, does that mean I win?
Not quite.

Well to answer the one when he said it on Namek, may I ask that if you knew only your father was stronger than you then would you say "I'm the second strongest in the world?"

Originally posted by dadudemon
It doesn't matter. Me not recalling it properly doesn't mean it wasn't said. That's just me not remembering who said what, properly.

It matters a lot actually. If King Cold had said it himself, it would've been almost irrefutable, at least going by the anime. Some random saying it however, is a different thing altogether.

Also, you made an assertive claim that "King Cold himself" said it, so you weren't "right".



On another note, does Freiza have a mother, or are they a bunch of homos?

Originally posted by dadudemon
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c329/14.html Freeza is the strongest.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c327/7.html Freeza is the strongest.

Then, Tien says Goku is the strongest. Then, King Kai says that Goku won't be the strongest for long:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c328/2.html

Why would King Kai say that if Freeza's father was stronger than freeza? (Goku, for a while there, was about dead even with 100% Freeza, but Freeza got worn out in his 100% power state.)



Also, a way to explain Tien's statement about Freeza's father having greater ki: Freeza was mostly machine, at that point. Remember, the androids ki could not be sensed as they weren't organic. So, Freeza, being mostly machine, was not sensed as being stronger than his father, yet was supposed to be much stronger than before.


That would explain why, repeatedly, Freeza was called the strongest in the universe.


So, does that mean I win? Both arrogant claims by Freeza, one of which took place before King Cold was ever going to be created and he said it directly in the face of proof Goku is stronger.

Once again, King Kai said that before King Cold was ever gonna be created, Akira Toriyama originally wanted to end the series after Freeza's defeat. Also, Goku was never even with him, he was not going full-out, SSJ Goku's power level was 150,000,000, compared to Freeza 100%'s 120,000,000.


Funny, Vegeta remarks his Ki is in fact stronger than before, and the reason why androids are like that is because, you guessed it, they don't actually have any Ki. You can't prove Freeza and the androids are the same way.

Yeah each time was before King Cold was created and only once after, by Freeza himself, who always says arrogant shit like that even when proven wrong.

Hell in that first scan who's sitting on the throne like a bad ass and who has to stand?

Not to mention King Cold actually looks like a man, Freeza does not.

Although Freeza is still my favorite DBZ villain.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Not to mention King Cold actually looks like a man, Freeza does not.

Although Freeza is still my favorite DBZ villain.

Yeah when I first saw Frieza, I thought he was a woman but later on I figured out that she...I mean he wasn't.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Both arrogant claims by Freeza, one of which took place before King Cold was ever going to be created and he said it directly in the face of proof Goku is stronger.

Your opinion means nothing when it was said. If Freeza wasn't the most powerful because his father was stronger, then why did he say it so many times? Don't you think his father would have a little something to say about it? His father was a manipulative-cold bastard himself.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Once again, King Kai said that before King Cold was ever gonna be created, Akira Toriyama originally wanted to end the series after Freeza's defeat. Also, Goku was never even with him, he was not going full-out, SSJ Goku's power level was 150,000,000, compared to Freeza 100%'s 120,000,000.

Really, your thoughts on this are irrelevant. We go from Toriyama having Freeza stated numerous times by both himself and others(the two I found were very quickly found and in very short time, no less) as the most powerful in the Universe to King Cold ONLY being said to have greater Ki than Freeza. That's it. Not more powerful, just greater Ki.


Originally posted by NemeBro
Funny, Vegeta remarks his Ki is in fact stronger than before, and the reason why androids are like that is because, you guessed it, they don't actually have any Ki. You can't prove Freeza and the androids are the same way.

Nice try, but major fail.

Ki comes from organic life. Freeza got "greater power leves" than he has ever had after the upgrades. He was the strongest in the universe before, and now he's much stronger. It only makes sense that his Ki is diminished to the point that his weaker father would have stronger Ki due to most of his body being Cybernetic and portions of his energy are artificially generated.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah each time was before King Cold was created and only once after, by Freeza himself, who always says arrogant shit like that even when proven wrong.

Yeah, nice try. But why would Toriyama go from having it stated, over and over again, by Freeza and other characters, that Freeza was the strongest in the Universe, and then, all of a sudden, he's not? Oh, right, you're wrong.



But, again, your thoughts on this are irrelevant. I proved it. My proof>>>>>than yours. Seems like you're just misinterpreting Tien's comment. You can pretend that King Cold was stronger. But, this is a closed book. No additional proof is required.

Originally posted by Placidity
It matters a lot actually. If King Cold had said it himself, it would've been almost irrefutable, at least going by the anime. Some random saying it however, is a different thing altogether.

Right, cause the "some random guy" saying it directly to King Cold himself makes a huge difference. Oh, wait, it doesn't. In fact, that insignificant character saying that directly to King Cold's face would have gotten him vaporized instantly if it weren't true.

Originally posted by Placidity
Also, you made an assertive claim that "King Cold himself" said it, so you weren't "right".

We've been over this. You're wasting space.



Originally posted by Placidity
On another note, does Freiza have a mother, or are they a bunch of homos?

Freeza said "parents".

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Because King Kai (at the time) didn't know about Frieza's father, as an indirect cause of the fact Toriyama had originally planned to end the series after the Namek saga. King Cold and the characters after him weren't thought up of until later.


Point fail. Toriyama was most certainly aware of it, though. You're painting Toriyama as being such a complete idiot that he can't even remember a character he created.

And, again, that point doesn't matter at all. It has no place. Freeza was stated by himself and others as the strongest in the Universe. Pretending that King Kai isn't aware of such a large powerful being is rediculous. King Cold, plain and simple, is not as strong as Freeza.



Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Not quite.


Freeza was the most powerful in the Universe. This is not debatable. The most credible character to make that easement said it himself: King Kai. I did win. Every last person that wants to King Cold to be stronger than Freeza, is clearly wrong. There can't be any more evidence that can get any clearer than what I provided.

It actually astounds me that people are debating this after I posted what I did. You guys can't get any more incorrect. Both the Anime and the manga agree with me. The only thing any of you have is a small snippit from Tien that doesn't do anything by act as hyperbole that really means nothing.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Freeza was the most powerful in the Universe. This is not debatable. The most credible character to make that easement said it himself: King Kai. I did win. Every last person that wants to be right, is clearly wrong. There can't be any more evidence that can get any clearer.

SSJ Goku was probably the most powerful being in the known universe as of that time, but if you count characters that don't come in until later than Dabura or Pikkon (if you count dead guys, and if he was dead by then, which I think he was), although he's probably weaker than Dabura.

Or, if you want to get very technical, Buu was still there, albeit sealed, so yeah Buu was the strongest.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
SSJ Goku was probably the most powerful being in the known universe as of that time, but if you count characters that don't come in until later than Dabura or Pikkon (if you count dead guys, and if he was dead by then, which I think he was), although he's probably weaker than Dabura.

Or, if you want to get very technical, Buu was still there, albeit sealed, so yeah Buu was the strongest.

Most active in the real world. The after life is a different universe/plane of existance.


Dabura was also from a different Universe. Buu was powerless, if you want to get technical. He was completely useless and required some infusion of Ki to be revived. Also, King Kai wasn't aware of Buu. If you ask the King Cold fanboys here, they'll tell you it's beacuse Toriyama hadn't created him yet.


Edit - SSJ Goku did not exist until the end there, for Freeza. Before SSJ GOku, Freeza really was the strongest in the Universe. King Kai agrees with me. lol

Dadudemon, I go get rather tired of holding your hand through these arguments. Can you respond with something other than a big "nah ah" next time you post?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Your opinion means nothing when it was said. If Freeza wasn't the most powerful because his father was stronger, then why did he say it so many times? Don't you think his father would have a little something to say about it? His father was a manipulative-cold bastard himself.



Really, your thoughts on this are irrelevant. We go from Toriyama having Freeza stated numerous times by both himself and others(the two I found were very quickly found and in very short time, no less) as the most powerful in the Universe to King Cold ONLY being said to have greater Ki than Freeza. That's it. Not more powerful, just greater Ki.




Nice try, but major fail.

Ki comes from organic life. Freeza got "greater power leves" than he has ever had after the upgrades. He was the strongest in the universe before, and now he's much stronger. It only makes sense that his Ki is diminished to the point that his weaker father would have stronger Ki due to most of his body being Cybernetic and portions of his energy are artificially generated.



Yeah, nice try. But why would Toriyama go from having it stated, over and over again, by Freeza and other characters, that Freeza was the strongest in the Universe, and then, all of a sudden, he's not? Oh, right, you're wrong.



But, again, your thoughts on this are irrelevant. I proved it. My proof>>>>>than yours. Seems like you're just misinterpreting Tien's comment. You can pretend that King Cold was stronger. But, this is a closed book. No additional proof is required. 1. Because he is an arrogant prick? Freeza outright claimed he is the strongest in the universe...After losing to Goku. He is not basing his claims on factual information, but his inflated ego.

2. Ki is the source of EVERY fighter's power in DBZ, if you are not even aware of that than get the hell out of this thread, because you clearly do not know what you are talking about. EVERY time it was said, it was by Freeza or people who were not aware of anyone stronger.

3. No it doesn't, prove that. Technically, Androids DO have Ki, it is just an unnatural form, Android 16-18 have Ki as evidenced by their ability to manipulate it, 18 using Destructo Disk also proves that they can learn to use their ki differently. Those cybernetic parts apparently increased his power level, his level of ki, so yes, you in fact CAN notice the difference, and the ki they "generate" is visible to those who can sense it, otherwise their would be no noticeable difference. You are wrong, get over yourself.

4. Freeza alone stated it. Freeza's arrogant delusional claims are not fact, Tien's observation of Freeza's and his father's power levels is fact.

5. You haven't proved a damn thing, in fact, King Kai in the scan you posted did not state Freeza was the strongest in the universe...He said Goku was, and Goku is stronger than Freeza. Goku is also stronger than King Cold. So yeah. Your proof is fallacious.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Dadudemon, I go get rather tired of holding your hand through these arguments. Can you respond with something other than a big "nah ah" next time you post?

1. Because he is an arrogant prick? Freeza outright claimed he is the strongest in the universe...After losing to Goku. He is not basing his claims on factual information, but his inflated ego.

2. Ki is the source of EVERY fighter's power in DBZ, if you are not even aware of that than get the hell out of this thread, because you clearly do not know what you are talking about. EVERY time it was said, it was by Freeza or people who were not aware of anyone stronger.

3. No it doesn't, prove that. Technically, Androids DO have Ki, it is just an unnatural form, Android 16-18 have Ki as evidenced by their ability to manipulate it, 18 using Destructo Disk also proves that they can learn to use their ki differently. Those cybernetic parts apparently increased his power level, his level of ki, so yes, you in fact CAN notice the difference, and the ki they "generate" is visible to those who can sense it, otherwise their would be no noticeable difference. You are wrong, get over yourself.

4. Freeza alone stated it. Freeza's arrogant delusional claims are not fact, Tien's observation of Freeza's and his father's power levels is fact.

5. You haven't proved a damn thing, in fact, King Kai in the scan you posted did not state Freeza was the strongest in the universe...He said Goku was, and Goku is stronger than Freeza. Goku is also stronger than King Cold. So yeah. Your proof is fallacious.

Serioulsy, STFU about it.

You're wrong.

Deal with it.

I accept your concession.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Right, cause the "some random guy" saying it directly to King Cold himself makes a huge difference. Oh, wait, it doesn't. In fact, that insignificant character saying that directly to King Cold's face would have gotten him vaporized instantly if it weren't true.


Um no it does make big difference as I explained. You aren't very smart if you don't see a difference between King Cold saying something that concerns HIMSELF or someone "insignificant" (as you put i) saying it.

But no, I'm sure you aren't THAT stupid, you just have too large an ego to admit it.

Originally posted by dadudemon

We've been over this. You're wasting space.


Yup, and you made a statement that was INCORRECT. Deal with it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Serioulsy, STFU about it.

I'm wrong, but I'm too egotistical to admit it.

Deal with it.

Originally posted by Placidity
Um no it does make big difference as I explained. You aren't very smart if you don't see a difference between King Cold saying something that concerns HIMSELF or someone "insignificant" (as you put i) saying it.

But no, I'm sure you aren't THAT stupid, you just have too large an ego to admit it.

I read your damn post. Stop pretending it's some earth shattering revelation. You aren't very smart if you don't see the difference betwen King Cold saying it and an underling saying to King Cold's face.



Originally posted by Placidity
Yup, and you made a statement that was INCORRECT. Deal with it.

We've been over this already. Get over it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I accept your concession.

I was right. Just about everyone else was wrong. It feels nice to pwn more than one person at once. This is the internetz....serious business.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If Freeza wasn't the most powerful because his father was stronger, then why did he say it so many times? Don't you think his father would have a little something to say about it?
No, because his father wasn't even there during the time he made all those "I am teh strongest!!1" claims on Namek.

Also...

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Well to answer the one when he said it on Namek, may I ask that if you knew only your father was stronger than you then would you say "I'm the second strongest in the world?"
Really. Think about that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Seems like you're just misinterpreting Tien's comment. You can pretend that King Cold was stronger.
Pray tell, how did he misinterpret Tien's comment? And how is what Tien said hyperbole that means nothing?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Right, cause the "some random guy" saying it directly to King Cold himself makes a huge difference. Oh, wait, it doesn't. In fact, that insignificant character saying that directly to King Cold's face would have gotten him vaporized instantly if it weren't true.
Or alternatively, Cold didn't vaporize him because he needed that 'random guy' to help restore his son back to life, not that it matters anyway since it was a filler part in the anime and not in the manga, therefore not canon.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Point fail. Toriyama was most certainly aware of it, though. You're painting Toriyama as being such a complete idiot that he can't even remember a character he created.
... no, I'm not. That's just you putting words in my mouth. I would never accuse the creator of one of my favorite childhood series of being an idiot, unless maybe it was him who also made GT... but it wasn't.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Pretending that King Kai isn't aware of such a large powerful being is rediculous.
I'm not pretending to, and it's not ridiculous, especially considering that King Kai wasn't even aware of Cell or the Androids until Goku teleported to his planet and told him about them prior to the Cell Games.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v33/c008/6.html

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v33/c008/7.html

As proven there, it is indeed possible for King Kai to overlook characters stronger than Frieza.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Freeza was the most powerful in the Universe. This is not debatable. The most credible character to make that easement said it himself: King Kai.
As shown by the above example, what King Kai says is not always true and can be retconned. What he said about Frieza being the strongest in the universe for example was retconned.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, King Kai wasn't aware of Buu.
Yes he was. He, along with all the other Kais, fought Majin Buu at one point before he was sealed away...

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you ask the King Cold fanboys here, they'll tell you it's beacuse Toriyama hadn't created him yet.
First off, if you're gonna call someone a fanboy, get your facts straight on what they're actually a fanboy of.

Secondly, the "Toriyama hadn't created him yet" part is true, like it or not. If it wasn't, King Kai here would not have declared Frieza "dead"...

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c328/

He would have detected the remains of Frieza drifting somewhere in space after Namek's explosion, but the continuation of the series after the Namek saga with Frieza still being alive made King Kai look like a fool instead.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You aren't very smart if you don't see the difference betwen King Cold saying it and an underling saying to King Cold's face.
Funny. Wasn't it you who said not too long ago that whomever said it didn't make a big difference anyway?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I was right. Just about everyone else was wrong. It feels nice to pwn more than one person at once. This is the internetz....serious business.
Apparently indeed.

Christ, it's like watching a little kid close his eyes, cup his ears and stomp the ground when people try to tell this guy the facts....

Seriously, this is why I had to stop arguing with Dadudemon in the Kenpachi thread, intelligent... or hell, even common sense based arguments are completely lost on him, AND, he's oblivious so he can carry on endlessly.


I mean.. wtf... he really just tried to pass off a semantic argument for Ki being different from overall power in DBZ? HA!

Originally posted by dadudemon
I read your damn post. Stop pretending it's some earth shattering revelation. You aren't very smart if you don't see the difference betwen King Cold saying it and an underling saying to King Cold's face.


Um lol, exactly. No way? WTF? You concede?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I was right. Just about everyone else was wrong. It feels nice to pwn more than one person at once. This is the internetz....serious business.

This kind of "I'm always right, everyone else is wrong" thing has been happening your whole life hasn't it? By far the most egotistical person I've encountered on these boards. Take a hint

Originally posted by dadudemon

We've been over this already. Get over it.

You were wrong.

Deal with it.

Shut Up

Originally posted by dadudemon
I was right. Just about everyone else was wrong. It feels nice to pwn more than one person at once. This is the internetz....serious business. BAAAAAAAAW!!!!

You need some cream with that butthurt bro?

Stamping like an infantile child and declaring yourself the leetz winRAR isn't how you actually win a debate, a concept that is no doubt lost on you.

You were wrong, concede.

ease up off my boy dadudemon

I admire your loyalty PG, but overall misdirected and undeserved loyalty.

Plus he brought it upon himself. Act like a jerk (and be wrong at the same time), and get treated like one.

Just wait, he will one-up his ego level in his next post.

There is one thing I'd like to mention over this whole "Frieza/Cold" business...if we look at the the entire family, it's pretty clear that both Frieza and Cooler were spoiled brats that got to brag about whatever they chose, within reason. It then stands that King Cold wouldn't be very upset about allowing his own son a bit of pre-battle gloating after just being rebuilt, yes? That doesn't mean Frieza is stronger than Cold at all, he's just trying to build his self-esteem.

Lol, weird concept, eh, but it makes sense, don't you guys think?

Originally posted by jinzin
Christ, it's like watching a little kid close his eyes, cup his ears and stomp the ground when people try to tell this guy the facts....

Seriously, this is why I had to stop arguing with Dadudemon in the Kenpachi thread, intelligent... or hell, even common sense based arguments are completely lost on him, AND, he's oblivious so he can carry on endlessly.


I mean.. wtf... he really just tried to pass off a semantic argument for Ki being different from overall power in DBZ? HA!

1. Everyone here is wrong. I proved it. They are closing their eyes, cupping their ears, and stomping their feet. I've been wrong before and admitted it. This time, I've provided more than enough evidence to be correct in both the anime and manga. They still won't listen. They are using excuses like "Toriyama hadn't created him yet!" As if Toriyama forgot all about his characters. It was never said that King Cold was the strongest in the universe. Never. Ever. Ever. It was never said that he was stronger than Frieza. Never. Ever. All they have is one line indicating a higher Ki.

2. Yeah, I'm obviously a retard because Ki is everything for overall power in DBZ. Oh wait, it isn't.

Originally posted by NemeBro
BAAAAAAAAW!!!!

You need some cream with that butthurt bro?

Stamping like an infantile child and declaring yourself the leetz winRAR isn't how you actually win a debate, a concept that is no doubt lost on you.

You were wrong, concede.

You were wrong. I proved it. Concede.


Originally posted by Placidity
Um lol, exactly. No way? WTF? You concede?

K.



Originally posted by Placidity
This kind of "I'm always right, everyone else is wrong" thing has been happening your whole life hasn't it? By far the most egotistical person I've encountered on these boards. Take a hint

Here's the problem: there's other worse on these boards. You're a good example. After I proved that pound force existed, you never once said "oh, wait, you're right. My bad." Instead, you continued to troll, just like now.

I've been wrong in the past and admitted it. You continue to try to make things personal, though.



If it's any help, I apologize for whatever I said to you to make you pissed off.




Originally posted by Placidity
You were wrong.

Deal with it.

Shut Up

I was right. I dealt with it.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
There is one thing I'd like to mention over this whole "Frieza/Cold" business...if we look at the the entire family, it's pretty clear that both Frieza and Cooler were spoiled brats that got to brag about whatever they chose, within reason. It then stands that King Cold wouldn't be very upset about allowing his own son a bit of pre-battle gloating after just being rebuilt, yes? That doesn't mean Frieza is stronger than Cold at all, he's just trying to build his self-esteem.

Lol, weird concept, eh, but it makes sense, don't you guys think?


Sure, I'll buy that.


But now we have to reconcile Vegeta saying Frieza was the strongest, Frieza's underlings saying he was the strongest, King Kai saying he was the strongest, etc. If we can reconcile that, then I'll buy your explanation for Frieza getting to say he's the strongest, but only for the manga, not the anime. In the anime, Frieza was, undoubtedly, the strongest.




Originally posted by psycho gundam
ease up off my boy dadudemon


You the man, Pycho.

Wasn't there an instance when Vegeta was in the presence of both Frieze and King Cold before Frieza was defeated? I thought I had seen one episode where it had happened. I don't recall Frieza ever trying to sass his pop, though he did give a smack to Vegeta, I think. Seriously, as arrogant as the children were, and if the apple doesn't fall far from the tree (which has more or less been proven correct via personality traits), then King Cold would have to be so full up on himself that he wouldn't feel any need to gloat about his strength unless one of his boys got uppity, in which case King Cold had to choke a *****.

All the other Z fighters never even knew about Cold, and Kai probably didn't speak about him because he wasn't an immediate thread, not being with his son on Namek and all. Sure, he's more powerful, but if he's so far away any chance of him making it back to become a threat is practically nil, why bother mentioning him?

Originally posted by dadudemon

Here's the problem: there's other worse on these boards. You're a good example. After I proved that pound force existed, you never once said "oh, wait, you're right. My bad." Instead, you continued to troll, just like now.

I've been wrong in the past and admitted it. You continue to try to make things personal, though.


I never argued that "pound force" didn't exist, that is a complete lie.

What you did say was this:

Originally posted by dadudemon

I did the math a while back and what I got was about 10 tons of force

I corrected you by saying "ton" is not a unit of measure of force. You later added pound-force, which does not change your original statement which I was addressing nor is it relevant to me pointing out your original error.


More to the point, pound-force or kilogram-force is the measure of force exerted on the object per mass unit by gravity, which is completely irrelevant to Spider-man's train stopping feat as it dealt with horizontal forces, not gravity.

Originally posted by dadudemon

I've been wrong in the past and admitted it. You continue to try to make things personal, though.


Well, that may be true but I've never seen it. You've made this personal from the start in your manner (not directed at me of course but still).

Originally posted by dadudemon

If it's any help, I apologize for whatever I said to you to make you pissed off.


Well I sure do appreciate it, and it wasn't anything you said to me particularly in this topic, but just the way you reply like, "you fail", "you're wrong deal with it", or "I'm right deal with it". I dunno about you, but if someone replied like that to you, you'd think they are very arrogant.


And since being RIGHT was sooo important to you, I decided to feed you your own medicine - in this case, you made an assertive claim that :

Originally posted by dadudemon

Cold said himself that Freiza was the strongest in the Universe.

Which is a factually wrong statement. I'm not wrong at all in pointing out that you were wrong. The end.

Originally posted by dadudemon

I was right. I dealt with it.

No... King Cold did not say it. If this is your idea of what "being right" is, I could understand.

But instead of saying "oh, wait, you're right. My bad", you continued to troll, just like now.

See how that works?

As for the topic at hand, everyone else has provided solid evidence which easily over-throws yours. I don't know if you genuinely think everyone else is trolling (hard to believe, but I personally still think your ego too large to back down, especially now - if I were that deep in shit I wouldn't either), but to me and everyone else, its damn obvious that at the MINIMUM, there is no substantial evidence to say that Freiza was stronger than his father.

Chuck Norris

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, I'm obviously a retard because Ki is everything for overall power in DBZ. Oh wait, it isn't. Yes it is. Please leave before you make even more of a full of yourself. A being's level of Ki is a direct indication of a fighter's overall power. Leave.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yes it is. Please leave before you make even more of a full of yourself. A being's level of Ki is a direct indication of a fighter's overall power. Leave.


No. It's not.


Examples:

Guldo - Was part of the Ginyu force but was relatively weak. He had other abilities besides speed and high Ki.

All iterations of Buu - This one is obvious: he could pull himself together even if he was destroyed by a blast. Even down to a microscopic level.

Perfect Cell - Because he could regrow stuff, he pwned.

Goku against Perfect Cell - Goku almost won. He greatly reduced cell's Ki, despite Cell's Ki being greater than Goku's. The IT technique gave Goku the edge and had things played out differently, Goku might have won.



Now, please STFU cause I pwned you with just a few examples off the top of my head. You should leave before continuing to embarass yourself. Of course, you'll debate my above examples. Fine. I don't care. I won't respond to them as they aren't debatable.


Sure, Ki certainly plays a large portion, but it's not everything. Almost all of the fights involve some sort of technique against a more powerful being. Almost every single fight. (It would seem that you really missed the point of almost ever single fight in Dragon Ball.)

Originally posted by Placidity
I never argued that "pound force" didn't exist, that is a complete lie.

What you did say was this:

Don't pretend I lied.

Here's what you said, more than once in more than one way:

Originally posted by Placidity
Sorry, ton is not a unit of measure of force. I don't care what other stuff you want to add on to it. My statement stands and it cannot be faulted.

So I said:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Force can be measured in pounds and then be converted to tonnage force by dividing by 2000, this is fact.

The real number I came up with was actually something like 9000 kilograms of force AFTER I did my conversations.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Good short-ton force, metric ton force, pound-force, ton-force, long-ton force, etc.

Here's a website dedicated to converting all of those for you:

http://www.convertworld.com/en/force/Pound-force.html

And, no, I did not use those units of force in my 10-tons of force guestimate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Good short-ton force, metric ton force, pound-force, ton-force, long-ton force, etc.

Here's a website dedicated to converting all of those for you:

http://www.convertworld.com/en/force/Pound-force.html

And, no, I did not use those units of force in my 10-tons of force guestimate.

If you want to argue word semantics, great. But, point still stands: you said that that form of force didn't exist: it did. I proved you wrong, you refused to acknowledge it. That was actually my point, not word semantics.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I corrected you by saying "ton" is not a unit of measure of force. You later added pound-force, which does not change your original statement which I was addressing nor is it relevant to me pointing out your original error.

But, you were wrong. I'm confused as I even provided a link proving that you were wrong.

Originally posted by dadudemon
More to the point, pound-force or kilogram-force is the measure of force exerted on the object per mass unit by gravity, which is completely irrelevant to Spider-man's train stopping feat as it dealt with horizontal forces, not gravity.


Pound-force is a unit of force that uses gravity as a standard way of establishing force. It is literally a force unit. It was the force unit before SI was established for force.

Why the HELL do you think there are conversation factors from pound-force to newtons? If you've ever taken physics, you would know already that pound-force is and realize it isn't just applied in vectors to the pull of gravity....it can be horizontal, too. dur

"In most contexts, the term "pound" refers unambiguously to a unit of mass. However, in some contexts, by convention, the "pound" may be defined to refer to a unit of force. In circumstances where there may be ambiguity otherwise, the symbol "lbf" or the term "pounds-force" can be used for the unit of force and the term "pounds-mass" can be used for the unit of mass."

Then, it shows how it can be used in classical physics equations.

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=432

You are wrong. It wouldn't be so bad if you weren't so adamant about this, but you are.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, that may be true but I've never seen it. You've made this personal from the start in your manner (not directed at me of course but still).

I've admitted fault on many occasions. Also, that's no different from how Nemebro and I talk to each other all the time. You've mistaken smartassery for serious internet arrogance. In a real discussion, (Such as the ones in the GDF), you won't see me acting like that.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Well I sure do appreciate it, and it wasn't anything you said to me particularly in this topic, but just the way you reply like, "you fail", "you're wrong deal with it", or "I'm right deal with it". I dunno about you, but if someone replied like that to you, you'd think they are very arrogant.

No, I'd think they were a smartass, and, by default, fun to talk to. One of my favorite things about KMC is arguing with Nemebro for PAGES. I always learn something about the topic we are arguing about and it's just fun.


Originally posted by dadudemon
And since being RIGHT was sooo important to you, I decided to feed you your own medicine - in this case, you made an assertive claim that :

That's fine. I was wrong. It's okay. Because my actual point was that Frieza was said to be the strongest in the universe...which would be stronger than King Cold. Yes, there is a difference between King Cold saying it and someone else saying. However, when that someone else says it right to King Cold's face, the difference in meaning is completely irrelevant as that person would surely die in the face of that arrogant family. People have been killed for less.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Which is a factually wrong statement. I'm not wrong at all in pointing out that you were wrong. The end.

I never said you were. I was just wondering why you were rehashing something that was already covered and passed. It seemed as though you were doing specifically to troll.




Originally posted by dadudemon
No... King Cold did not say it. If this is your idea of what "being right" is, I could understand.

But instead of saying "oh, wait, you're right. My bad", you continued to troll, just like now.

See how that works?

As for the topic at hand, everyone else has provided solid evidence which easily over-throws yours. I don't know if you genuinely think everyone else is trolling (hard to believe, but I personally still think your ego too large to back down, especially now - if I were that deep in shit I wouldn't either), but to me and everyone else, its damn obvious that at the MINIMUM, there is no substantial evidence to say that Freiza was stronger than his father.

That's not what I was arguing. Why are you arguing something that already passed before you even posted about?

Also, no, they haven't. I've provided more than enough evidence to prove them all wrong. There is no arguing the point. To me, everyone just wants to be right and won't admit it. I'm right in both the manga and especially the anime. I've provided that evidence. I shouldn't have to do anymore than that. I really don't understand what the big deal is. But, this is DBZ...so I can understand everyone getting their panties in a wad over something they thought was true, but isn't. However, why can't people just put aside their pride and just think rationally about it? The manga speaks for itself. Excuses like "Toriyama hadn't created King Cold yet" don't fly. Not even close.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Wasn't there an instance when Vegeta was in the presence of both Frieze and King Cold before Frieza was defeated? I thought I had seen one episode where it had happened. I don't recall Frieza ever trying to sass his pop, though he did give a smack to Vegeta, I think. Seriously, as arrogant as the children were, and if the apple doesn't fall far from the tree (which has more or less been proven correct via personality traits), then King Cold would have to be so full up on himself that he wouldn't feel any need to gloat about his strength unless one of his boys got uppity, in which case King Cold had to choke a *****.

All the other Z fighters never even knew about Cold, and Kai probably didn't speak about him because he wasn't an immediate thread, not being with his son on Namek and all. Sure, he's more powerful, but if he's so far away any chance of him making it back to become a threat is practically nil, why bother mentioning him?

I sort of agree with what you're saying.

If King Cold was so arrogant, though, he WOULD b*tch slap his son. If King Kai knew about Cold being stronger, and King Cold was obviously just as ruthless as Frieza, King Cold would certainly be a major threat and King Kai would have acknowledged it with some sort of information on Goku's defeat of Frieza being useless. (Again, you have to stay within the universe...the excuse that King Cold wasn't created yet is not an excuse, at all.)

That's why it makes much more sense that, in the previous arcs, Frieza truly was the strongest in the Universe, which is why everyone was saying it left and right, including King Kai. When Goku came out from the tank right before he fought Frieza's depowered first form, it would make sense that Frieza would be stronger than King Cold at that point as King Cold appears to be in the second form.




If someone said, "King Cold could just go to his final form and be rediculously stronger than Frieza." If he could, I would agree. However, since Frieza was said to be the strongest by multiple people and by King Kai himself, we can conclude that King Cold can't go beyond the second form. No, there's none of this "real world" stuff where people use the excuse that Toriyama hadn't created King Cold, yet. Stay within the universe and use the universe as an excuse.


If someone can provide an interview or statement from Toriyama saying that he created a plot hole or that no one was aware of King Cold before Frieza's defeat, I'll admit I'm wrong. I promise. Until then, Frieza is the strongest and it's not disputable.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
There is one thing I'd like to mention over this whole "Frieza/Cold" business...if we look at the the entire family, it's pretty clear that both Frieza and Cooler were spoiled brats that got to brag about whatever they chose, within reason. It then stands that King Cold wouldn't be very upset about allowing his own son a bit of pre-battle gloating after just being rebuilt, yes? That doesn't mean Frieza is stronger than Cold at all, he's just trying to build his self-esteem.

Lol, weird concept, eh, but it makes sense, don't you guys think?
Agreed. It does make complete sense.

Originally posted by dadudemon
All they have is one line indicating a higher Ki.
And all you have is lines about Frieza that were retconned.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If King Kai knew about Cold being stronger, and King Cold was obviously just as ruthless as Frieza, King Cold would certainly be a major threat and King Kai would have acknowledged it with some sort of information on Goku's defeat of Frieza being useless. (Again, you have to stay within the universe...the excuse that King Cold wasn't created yet is not an excuse, at all.)
Yes it is, considering that King Kai ALSO didn't know about Cell or the Androids, until Goku told him about them prior to the Cell Games, as I pointed out before.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v33/c008/6.html

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v33/c008/7.html

Since King Kai didn't notice them until Goku informed him, I guess that would make Frieza stronger than Cell like how you believe he's stronger than his father, right?

Originally posted by dadudemon
When Goku came out from the tank right before he fought Frieza's depowered first form, it would make sense that Frieza would be stronger than King Cold at that point as King Cold appears to be in the second form.
You don't know that for a fact. Just because Cold looks similar to Frieza's 1st transformation doesn't mean they're the same in power, or anything. After all, Frieza's and Cooler's 3rd forms look almost completely different from each other.

Cold also had reaction speed on par with that of Mecha Frieza, as shown by him also dodging Trunks's attack before he struck with his sword.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c331/17.html

No way would he have been able to avoid a Super Saiyan's attack if he was only as strong as Frieza's 2nd form.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No. It's not.


Examples:

Guldo - Was part of the Ginyu force but was relatively weak. He had other abilities besides speed and high Ki.

All iterations of Buu - This one is obvious: he could pull himself together even if he was destroyed by a blast. Even down to a microscopic level.

Perfect Cell - Because he could regrow stuff, he pwned.

Goku against Perfect Cell - Goku almost won. He greatly reduced cell's Ki, despite Cell's Ki being greater than Goku's. The IT technique gave Goku the edge and had things played out differently, Goku might have won.



Now, please STFU cause I pwned you with just a few examples off the top of my head. You should leave before continuing to embarass yourself. Of course, you'll debate my above examples. Fine. I don't care. I won't respond to them as they aren't debatable.


Sure, Ki certainly plays a large portion, but it's not everything. Almost all of the fights involve some sort of technique against a more powerful being. Almost every single fight. (It would seem that you really missed the point of almost ever single fight in Dragon Ball.) Guldo's ONLY abilities were his time and psychic powers...And he was still the weakest Ginyu member, being much weaker than anyone else, to the point where they contemplated killing him for his weakness.

Buu has that one ability sure...But still gets the shit beat out of him by someone with greater Ki.

Perfect Cell? Goku outright admitted he could not beat Cell, for his Ki was greater.

Show me one example of someone with higher Ki losing to someone with lower Ki in terms of sheer fighting.

Also, Freeza and King Cold are the same species, hell, King Cold if I recall right even outright implied he was Freeza's trainer.

All you have to say Freeza is stronger than King Cold is Freeza's delusional claims of being the strongest in the universe...Lies that have been proven wrong, even before Freeza made the claim. We have Tien directly stating Freeza is with someone (King Cold) with greater Ki than Freeza, that statement was never disputed in the manga.

Virtually every DBZ fight is about the one with greater POWER dominating the fight, unless it is a case of Goku holding back or something like that.

Yep, and needless to say, Tien is never one to make arrogant/delusional claims like Frieza. He knew what he was talking about when he sensed their Ki. No hyperbole statement involved.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Don't pretend I lied.


You did lie, still are.

Originally posted by dadudemon
you said that that form of force didn't exist: it did.

Where did I say that? Show me where I said pound-force did not exist? Prove it once and for all, or stop lying.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to argue word semantics, great. But, point still stands: you said that that form of force didn't exist: it did. I proved you wrong, you refused to acknowledge it. That was actually my point, not word semantics.


You would have proven me wrong the moment you prove that "TON" (not pound-force, which is irrelevant) is a measure of force. Do it, or concede.




Originally posted by dadudemon

Pound-force is a unit of force that uses gravity as a standard way of establishing force. It is literally a force unit. It was the force unit before SI was established for force.

Why the HELL do you think there are conversation factors from pound-force to newtons? If you've ever taken physics, you would know already that pound-force is and realize it isn't just applied in vectors to the pull of gravity....it can be horizontal, too. dur

"In most contexts, the term "pound" refers unambiguously to a unit of mass. However, in some contexts, by convention, the "pound" may be defined to refer to a unit of force. In circumstances where there may be ambiguity otherwise, the symbol "lbf" or the term "pounds-force" can be used for the unit of force and the term "pounds-mass" can be used for the unit of mass."

Then, it shows how it can be used in classical physics equations.

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=432

You are wrong. It wouldn't be so bad if you weren't so adamant about this, but you are.


How is pound-force relevant to Spider-man stopping the train again?


Originally posted by dadudemon
You are wrong. It wouldn't be so bad if you weren't so adamant about this, but you are.


I am not wrong. It is you who are being adamant.

Basically, this is what happened:

You: "...tons of force".

Me: Um "ton" is not a measure of force.

You: Pound-force is a measure of force.

Me: Ok ton is not pound-force.

You: You are arguing "semantics"

Me: No, "ton" and "pound-force" are totally different things, and you know it. I don't see how you can claim to have any understanding of physics if you don't see the difference between "ton" and "pound-force". In fact unless you are retarded (which I don't think you are), you'd be able to tell the difference. Try to talk about pound-force as much as you want - Ton is not a measure of force, it is a measure of mass.

I already know where this is going, you're going to close you eyes and shout "blah blah blah pound-force exists, you were wrong".

...A ton can in fact be a measure of force.

If something is 2,000 pounds of force...It is a ton of force. You really are just arguing semantics.

Ton being a measure of force is less frequently used than it being a measure of mass, this is true, but it is still used as such.

Originally posted by NemeBro
...A ton can in fact be a measure of force.

If something is 2,000 pounds of force...It is a ton of force. You really are just arguing semantics.

Ton being a measure of force is less frequently used than it being a measure of mass, this is true, but it is still used as such.

No, pound has two meanings. in normal usage, it is a unit of mass. However it can also mean pound-force. Ton, however does not have this double meaning at all, and is strictly a measure of mass. The closest thing would be ton-force, completely different from "ton". It's as simple as that.

None of these (pound-/ton-force) are SI units by the way, and it was just a convenient argument point for DDM. This is true because pound-force is irrelevant to Spider-man's feat of stopping the runaway train.

So in fact he was wrong on two counts:

1. Using "ton" as a measure of force, when it is in fact a measure of mass (ton and ton-force are completely different).

2. Pretending he meant pound-force since it has a double-meaning, which does not equate to ton in any way. Using pound-force in the context of the feat is irrelevant.

Back to the more on topic point:

Nemebro:

1. Thanks for backing me up with the tons force thing. I think it's obviou that I'm right. But it does help to have a third party's input, at times.

2. Almost every single fight in DBZ is a fight of the "hero" being lesser than the Villian, in Ki ability.

3. Guldo being weak does not change the fact that he was part of one of the, if not the, strongest military squad in the universe before the Siayans got all of their power amps. He didn't have very much Ki, but his abilities made him a powerful opponent that almost every last warrior would have fallen to. Hell, two of the universes strongest (at least in the top 20, at the time), at the time, almost died to Guldo. (Gohan and Krillin.)

4. Frieza was stronger than King Cold. I've proven it. Just admit you were wrong.

5. Vegeta saying Frieza was stronger than before may not have necessarily been Vegeta talking ONLY about his Ki energy. Vegeta just learned how to use his "Ki" sensing abilities. Probably not faulted, though. But, Vegeta was one of the ones to say that Frieza was the strongest in the universe. Makes more sense that Frieza was stronger, but had less Ki because he was part Cyborg. There was less organic left of him to produce Ki. His total energy potential was obviously greater than it was before...just a more of the energy came from his "machine" parts than his organic parts. You do know that that's where "Ki" comes from, right? (I'm sure you probably do. In fact, I'm probably wasting my time with this last point.)

Edit - Damn, I type fast. haha

Originally posted by dadudemon

I learned from this that:

1. You change your arguments to be right, and you're still wrong in doing so.

2. You won't admit that you are wrong and I do. I've admitted fault twice in the very thread. You claimed I never admit fault, which I obviously do and did before you made your first derisive post in this thread. I mentioned fault in the Spiderman Yu-law thread, as well.

3. You purposefully argued word semantics and ignored my actual points, just to be right (becauase I incorrectly recalled our debate being over pound-force instead of ton-force). That's really lame, imo. (Don't you agree?)

4. Not only does a unit force exist in tons, force is not JUST measured in newtons, like you said.

1. No I didn't. Tons is not a unit of force. Ton-force is. Ton isn't. Very simple.

2. Why would I admit I am wrong when I'm not? Ton is not a unit of force. You won't find one source that says otherwise. Thats all it comes down to really. You should really concede because you will never be able to respond to this point since you are simply wrong.

Heres some credible sources that you won't find anywhere that it lists "ton" as a measure of force.

Wiki

National Physics Laboratory

Random "School for Champions" Site


3. NOT semantics at all. Tons =/= Ton-force

4. You are right here (Newton not only unit, not Ton is a measure of force), I did say that and I was wrong on this point.

Wait, what's going on? I just popped into this thread again and I can't even figure out what is being argued about.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Wait, what's going on? I just popped into this thread again and I can't even figure out what is being argued about.

Lol, I feel you.

Basically, I'm saying ton is not a unit of force (ton =/= ton-force). DDM and Neme think otherwise.

Well there are different types of tons

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, Vegeta was one of the ones to say that Frieza was the strongest in the universe.
And, there were no scenes where he had met or known about King Cold, so he probably didn't know Frieza even had a father (who was stronger ) until the Trunks Saga.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Wait, what's going on? I just popped into this thread again and I can't even figure out what is being argued about.
What's been argued about basically is whether or not Frieza's father was stronger than Frieza, which then somehow turned into another argument about tons and measurements...

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime

What's been argued about basically is whether or not Frieza's father was stronger than Frieza, which then somehow turned into another argument about tons and measurements...

Blame DDM

How about you all stop comparing real world physics to a comic.

That where the problem start.

Originally posted by Placidity
4. You are right here (Newton not only unit, not Ton is a measure of force), I did say that and I was wrong on this point.

K. Fair enough.


And I'll admit that eliminating the gravitational constant from the numerator and denominator, while algebraically sound, is not sound for the intended calculation. (I already admitted that, indirectly, but I'll directly admit it.) On top of that, the original calculation was just simply wrong. (I admitted that already, as well.) I needed to incorporate the actual time used against the "mass" of the train to calucuate force, not calculate based off of a guessed force, which I originally did. In my defense, I was trying to replicate previous results by working them backwards. I came up with 9000 newtons or something (which was also wrong).

To my credit, I redid the calculations for a rigid train and static forces over the acceleration event, and came up with a generally correct result. However, that calculation does not account for the force the engines were supplying at the beginning, nor does it account for the complete stop of the engines at some point. The negative acceleration event was quite dynamic. Robtard explained that the engines stopped because they stalled when Spiderman started to really apply some force.





Anyway, back on topic, we now have 5 instances of me admitting fault, in this thread alone. The idea that I never admit I'm wrong should be soundly debunked, right?



More on topic:

Ridley Prime: I appreciate the very respectful manner you have debated this with me. Your logic has been sound. Before this thread, I didn't really talk to you much. Now, I respect you as a poster. I look forward to future conversations and debates.

As far as the topic goes, Ridely Prime, how do you know that Vegeta didn't know about King Cold? Did he ever go "who the eff is that" or something similar? No.

However, he didn't recognize his Ki at all. He didn't even acknowledge it, really. Is it possible that Vegeta could tell that Frieza had gotten stronger due to his intimate knowledge of Frieza...thus explaining why Tien detected a "stronger ki's" than Frieza's? That would certainly bridge the gap between cyborg Frieza being much stronger than before while accounting for less Ki due to being mostly cyborg. The intimacy portion with Vegeta would explain why Vegeta said Frieza was stronger (cause he could "tell" somehow that his cyborg augmentations made him stronger whereas, Tien, only had training with detecting Ki.)



In the end, Frieza was referred to on multiple occasions as the strongest in the universe from multiple people. This cannot be ignored. Either Tien's comment was out of place (pis) or misunderstood (my explanation.)

dammit dadudemon, i thought i'd get used to your sig and avy but everytime i see them i get a sweettooth craving!

Originally posted by EvilAngel
dammit dadudemon, i thought i'd get used to your sig and avy but everytime i see them i get a sweettooth craving!

I crave donuts every time I see it.

so yeah, to bring this back to the main plot of this thread, frieza transforms once just for security, then immediately kills cap'n ginyu. the rest are non-factors.

@ dadudemon: Well, I suppose I won't argue about the validity of Tien's statement anymore, as it'll only keep dragging things out. Whether King Cold's stronger than Frieza or not though, he's still in the same league as his son in terms of Ki/power, so it would be hard to tell the difference between them anyhow. At least based on this.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c330/2.html

"There's Frieza and the other one like him!"

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c330/10.html

"One of these monsters is hard enough to handle! Now there are two!"

Even Vegeta thought the situation there was hopeless based on what he said at the end, and not just because of Frieza apparently...

So I guess we can just leave it at that.
And thank you for the complements & acknowledgement. ^^

Originally posted by psycho gundam
so yeah, to bring this back to the main plot of this thread, frieza transforms once just for security, then immediately kills cap'n ginyu. the rest are non-factors.
It actually takes time for Frieza to transform though, as we've seen (especially when it came to his final/true form). Captain Ginyu could probably use that time to try and change bodies while Frieza's still in the middle of morphing to his next form. Otherwise though, Frieza dominates.

Originally posted by dadudemon
As far as the topic goes, Ridely Prime, how do you know that Vegeta didn't know about King Cold? Did he ever go "who the eff is that" or something similar? No.

However, he didn't recognize his Ki at all. He didn't even acknowledge it, really. Is it possible that Vegeta could tell that Frieza had gotten stronger due to his intimate knowledge of Frieza...thus explaining why Tien detected a "stronger ki's" than Frieza's? That would certainly bridge the gap between cyborg Frieza being much stronger than before while accounting for less Ki due to being mostly cyborg. The intimacy portion with Vegeta would explain why Vegeta said Frieza was stronger (cause he could "tell" somehow that his cyborg augmentations made him stronger whereas, Tien, only had training with detecting Ki.)



In the end, Frieza was referred to on multiple occasions as the strongest in the universe from multiple people. This cannot be ignored. Either Tien's comment was out of place (pis) or misunderstood (my explanation.) 1. Because we have never had any indication that he did and will not assume so?

2. Assumptions, the statement was not that complex and pretending it was is wishful thinking, also, his "intimate nature?" Just because he knew Freeza, by some magical empathetic link he could tell he is stronger? Do you even buy your own bullshit? None of this was even implied.

3. Multiple people who did not know Cold, or was Freeza himself, who, like any DBZ villain, is prone to gross overestimations of their own power. Tien's comment is the only non-biased comment regarding Freeza and King Cold's power while they are together for as comparison.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
It actually takes time for Frieza to transform though, as we've seen (especially when it came to his final/true form). Captain Ginyu could probably use that time to try and change bodies while Frieza's still in the middle of morphing to his next form. Otherwise though, Frieza dominates. i thought his transformation time was skewed due to filler, but i;ll take your word for it.

meh, he kills the ginyu force first then.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Point fail. Toriyama was most certainly aware of it, though. You're painting Toriyama as being such a complete idiot that he can't even remember a character he created.

And, again, that point doesn't matter at all. It has no place. Freeza was stated by himself and others as the strongest in the Universe. Pretending that King Kai isn't aware of such a large powerful being is rediculous. King Cold, plain and simple, is not as strong as Freeza.






Freeza was the most powerful in the Universe. This is not debatable. The most credible character to make that easement said it himself: King Kai. I did win. Every last person that wants to King Cold to be stronger than Freeza, is clearly wrong. There can't be any more evidence that can get any clearer than what I provided.

It actually astounds me that people are debating this after I posted what I did. You guys can't get any more incorrect. Both the Anime and the manga agree with me. The only thing any of you have is a small snippit from Tien that doesn't do anything by act as hyperbole that really means nothing.


Toriyama has said in many interviews that he wrote DBZ one chapter at a time and NEVER thought ahead about what would happen next. Which quite literally means, if a character had not appeared in the Manga yet, he was not created yet. Nobody claimed that Toriyama "forgot" King Cold. Because you quite simply cannot forget something that doesnt exist yet.

Lets face it, the facts put against COMPLETELY disprove all of your very very tame evidence. You have no proof besides concieted talk from Frieza and some crap King Kai said before King Cold was even created by Toriyama.

Show me one scan...Just one...where someone outright says that Frieza is stronger than his father. Lets see it.

We've already seen one where Tien outright states that Frieza is with someone who is even stronger than him. Which is quite obviously King Cold.

Also...show me one of Frieza's "abilities" that would make up for his "low ki". Not that it matter's because we all know Vegeta said himself, that Frieza was stronger than before. Do you think he was refering to some unknown technique? No, its not possible because the only thing Vegeta or any of the other Z Fighters can sense is KI. So if Vegeta says Frieza is even stronger without even seeing him, that means that his Ki is higher than before.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Because we have never had any indication that he did and will not assume so?

Actually, we have indirect proof. Vegeta didn't act suprised. He didn't say anything about King Cold's presence. Don't you think he would have said "ZOMG! Another one I didn't know about!"

He didn't.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Assumptions, the statement was not that complex and pretending it was is wishful thinking, also, his "intimate nature?" Just because he knew Freeza, by some magical empathetic link he could tell he is stronger? Do you even buy your own bullshit? None of this was even implied.

Yes, it makes sense. How could Vegeta tell freeza was stronger when most of his body was machine? You do know the "ki" comes from life, don't you? I explained this to you once before. The only way Vegeta could have known that Frieza was stronger is if Frieza actually trained his organic form to be stronger than it was before, in addition to the upgrades.

Since that's retarded to assume that, we can just assume that Vegeta could "tell" somehow that Frieza was stronger, despite his actual Ki being lower.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Multiple people who did not know Cold, or was Freeza himself, who, like any DBZ villain, is prone to gross overestimations of their own power. Tien's comment is the only non-biased comment regarding Freeza and King Cold's power while they are together for as comparison.

This has been covered already, by me. I don't see why we are going over it again.

And, I've already explained how Tien's comment is still correct while Frieza is still stronger.

Again, one comment from Tien that is easily explained by Frieza being mostly machine versus multiple comments from multiple characters, one of them the friggin Kai. Seems like a no-brainer, to me. Obviously, Frieza is stronger.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
Also...show me one of Frieza's "abilities" that would make up for his "low ki". Not that it matter's because we all know Vegeta said himself, that Frieza was stronger than before. Do you think he was refering to some unknown technique? No, its not possible because the only thing Vegeta or any of the other Z Fighters can sense is KI. So if Vegeta says Frieza is even stronger without even seeing him, that means that his Ki is higher than before.


You would have to prove that. You can't.

I've provided reasoning on why Frieza could be viewed as stronger.

Also, you're forgetting about telepathy. He could just tell that Frieza was stronger, despite his Ki being lower.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You would have to prove that. You can't.

I've provided reasoning on why Frieza could be viewed as stronger.

Also, you're forgetting about telepathy. He could just tell that Frieza was stronger, despite his Ki being lower.


WAIT WAIT WAIT! Vegeta is a psychic now? This is news to me...

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
WAIT WAIT WAIT! Vegeta is a psychic now? This is news to me...

Telepathic, yes.

.....I cant even talk about this anymore...

Originally posted by dadudemon
I crave donuts every time I see it.

Oddly enough, there are two ball-shaped food items next to the donuts ermmha

I want proof of one time where Vegeta knew of a characters abilities before seeing them or hearing about them. Because I sure as hell dont remember Vegeta being psychic....Are you sure you we watched the same Dragonball Z? I was pretty sure there was only one...But you have me thinking otherwise now..

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, we have indirect proof. Vegeta didn't act suprised. He didn't say anything about King Cold's presence. Don't you think he would have said "ZOMG! Another one I didn't know about!"

He didn't.



Yes, it makes sense. How could Vegeta tell freeza was stronger when most of his body was machine? You do know the "ki" comes from life, don't you? I explained this to you once before. The only way Vegeta could have known that Frieza was stronger is if Frieza actually trained his organic form to be stronger than it was before, in addition to the upgrades.

Since that's retarded to assume that, we can just assume that Vegeta could "tell" somehow that Frieza was stronger, despite his actual Ki being lower.



This has been covered already, by me. I don't see why we are going over it again.

And, I've already explained how Tien's comment is still correct while Frieza is still stronger.

Again, one comment from Tien that is easily explained by Frieza being mostly machine versus multiple comments from multiple characters, one of them the friggin Kai. Seems like a no-brainer, to me. Obviously, Frieza is stronger. 1. No, that is because by the time we saw him he had already sensed them approaching, when we see him he is waiting for them. Tien actually commented on King Cold being stronger, directly. If you don't read the series, do not argue it.

2. You explained it even though you were wrong? 16 is completely inorganic, and he has Ki, EVERY Android has Ki, they only possess a special kind of Ki that is untraceable. Something Freeza's Ki, or even part of it, was never proven to be. Your entire argument is based upon sloppy conjecture, that Freeza is the same as the Androids.

Your empathetic link with Freeza theory is retarded, it was never so much as implied, occam's razor asserts that the decision that makes the least assumptions if usually the correct one, you are assuming Freeza was like the androids, you are assuming Vegeta has a telepathic link with him (Lol), you are assuming Tien was lying/wrong, you are wrong.

3. I accept your concession on this point.

Only your shitty explanation is based on a theory and not actual proof from the manga.

Kai never said Freeza was the strongest in the universe, get over yourself.

I would also like to note that if Frieza's ki had indeed appeared lower due to his cybernetic body parts. I really think one of the Z Fighters would've commented on the fact they couldnt sense as much ki as before.

I'll just throw this out there. Tien's statement mentions Freiza, but it could be that he was talking about the Frieza during the Frieza saga, and not the Mecha Frieza that was approaching.

Wait this is simple!

Freiza gets own! Ginyu steals Guldo's body to get time stop and then proceeds to get Freiza's body.

Originally posted by NemeBro
16 is completely inorganic, and he has Ki, EVERY Android has Ki, they only possess a special kind of Ki that is untraceable.
Since when? I do not recall it ever being stated they have Ki. They are driven by mechanical power sources that unlike Ki do not deplete.

So Yeah Ginyu and Guldo can own Freiza.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I'll just throw this out there. Tien's statement mentions Freiza, but it could be that he was talking about the Frieza during the Frieza saga, and not the Mecha Frieza that was approaching.


I'm pretty sure he said something about sensing ANOTHER even greater ki. i.e. King Cold.

Originally posted by chulance
So Yeah Ginyu and Guldo can own Freiza.
No they can't. Ginyu has to say the technique to use it, but Guldo can only stop time while holding his breath. It's logistically impossible.

No?

Where does it say Ginyu HAS to yell out the name of his attacks before using them?

Ginyu just steals Guldo's body, holds breath, and takes Freiza's walla they can all own Freiza in Guldo's body.

Originally posted by chulance
No?

Where does it say Ginyu HAS to yell out the name of his attacks before using them?

Ginyu just steals Guldo's body, holds breath, and takes Freiza's walla they can all own Freiza in Guldo's body. frieza's too fast.

remember the second time guldo used that move, gohan and krillin were about a foot away from knocking him out and he didn't even know it? this time frieza gets the job done.. death beam...punch...psychic power (or that thing he used on krillin) ....whatever.

Originally posted by chulance
No?

Where does it say Ginyu HAS to yell out the name of his attacks before using them?

Ginyu just steals Guldo's body, holds breath, and takes Freiza's walla they can all own Freiza in Guldo's body.
Because the reason why sealing Ginyu in the frog defeated him was because the frog could not speak, and thus could not activate the body-switch technique. He needs to say that particular attack to use it.

Eh your right Freiza can move you with your mind or implode you.

Freiza can wipe out his empire.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Since when? I do not recall it ever being stated they have Ki. They are driven by mechanical power sources that unlike Ki do not deplete.

You are correct. That do NOT have ki.

^
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by dadudemon
I crave donuts every time I see it.
Oddly enough, there are two ball-shaped food items next to the donuts ermmha

Not going to respond to an immature, yet quite clever statement like this ?

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
I'm pretty sure he said something about sensing ANOTHER even greater ki. i.e. King Cold.

Yeah, you're right. I forgot the exact words of the scan.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix


Not going to respond to an immature, yet quite clever statement like this ?




LOL


No. I do NOT crave balls, too.

(I didn't see that comment the first time.)