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Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion.

AAAARRGHGHGAHGGHHGHGHAAHAHGA!!!

Whenever, I hear ANYTHING about all the morons in this country who are trying to make it basically a theocracy, I go crazy with rage and disgust. You are right on every single thing you have said. It's making me want to leave the ****ing country.

Originally posted by Dresta
Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion.

Some forms of Christianity have very little to do with the teachings of Jesus. Many of the fundamentalists in the US follow the teachings of Paul and how he interpreted the words of Jesus.

'God and country' is a phrase used among conservatives to rally around.

Originally posted by King Kandy
AAAARRGHGHGAHGGHHGHGHAAHAHGA!!!

Whenever, I hear ANYTHING about all the morons in this country who are trying to make it basically a theocracy, I go crazy with rage and disgust. You are right on every single thing you have said. It's making me want to leave the ****ing country.

It's not really all that bad. You need to see more of the country. The everyday person in the US is basically good.

Crazy isn't it? You'd think that the country could somehow be traced back to groups of Puritans and missionaries sent over from Europe or something. But nope, it turns out that America's history begins with the signing of the Declaration of Independence where upon hundreds of thousands of people who thought exactly the the Founding Fathers were suddenly teleported into the nation.

American history is fvcking epic.

Originally posted by Dresta
Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion.
WE AINT COMMIES YO!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's not really all that bad. You need to see more of the country. The everyday person in the US is basically good.
The everyday person in the US is really stupid. We can see this is political choices, economic choices, religion, media... i see the positive side of things but the more i read the more Norway seems like a great idea.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The everyday person in the US is really stupid. We can see this is political choices, economic choices, religion, media... i see the positive side of things but the more i read the more Norway seems like a great idea.

Then you need to stop reading what ever it is you are reading. Most people are not stupid, unless you only classify book learning as intelligent. Also, just because someone isn't of your political persuasion, does not mean they are stupid. To think that other people have to agree with you, or they are stupid is an ignorant point of view.

Would you prefer a dictatorship?

Originally posted by King Kandy
The everyday person in the US is really stupid. We can see this is political choices, economic choices, religion, media... i see the positive side of things but the more i read the more Norway seems like a great idea.

People are stupid everywhere. They are just stupid in different ways.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then you need to stop reading what ever it is you are reading. Most people are not stupid, unless you only classify book learning as intelligent. Also, just because someone isn't of your political persuasion, does not mean they are stupid. To think that other people have to agree with you, or they are stupid is an ignorant point of view.

Would you prefer a dictatorship?
You think christianity is stupid and almost everyone practices that... are you the one with the ignorant point of view now?

And when having a different political persuasion is harming me personally and (imo) the country as a whole, then yes it is time to gtfo.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You think christianity is stupid and almost everyone practices that... are you the one with the ignorant point of view now?

I don't think people are stupid. Do you get the difference?

Originally posted by King Kandy
And when having a different political persuasion is harming me personally and (imo) the country as a whole, then yes it is time to gtfo.

You sound like a tea bag Republican.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't think people are stupid. Do you get the difference?
You're obviously using a different definition than I am then. I'm talking about "people who hold stupid views".

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You sound like a tea bag Republican.
No, the problem there is instead of leaving the country, they want to stay and make everyone else conform to their views.

I really don't want to discuss this with you. You always get crazy whenever anyone tries to discuss politics with you.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You're obviously using a different definition than I am then. I'm talking about "people who hold stupid views".

People are filled with delusions.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, the problem there is instead of leaving the country, they want to stay and make everyone else conform to their views...

I was just trying to tell you that both sides feel the same way these days. There is too much entrenched mentality in the US.

We are getting off topic.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Crazy isn't it? You'd think that the country could somehow be traced back to groups of Puritans and missionaries sent over from Europe or something. But nope, it turns out that America's history begins with the signing of the Declaration of Independence where upon hundreds of thousands of people who thought exactly the the Founding Fathers were suddenly teleported into the nation.

American history is fvcking epic. The values of the founding fathers are the values that America is based upon, most people however are too ignorant to realize what that is. The founding fathers are held in high regard by almost every 'patriotic' American yet they still don't know what they stand for. This is partly because of a poor and extremely subjective teaching of history, where the truth is completely ignored.

The English had the same religious views as was held in America at that time too you know, but then they got educated.

Originally posted by King Kandy
We are getting off topic.

Delusions and entrenched mentality are the reason people use phrases like 'God and country' without any consideration for what Jesus taught.

It seems like we are right on topic.

Unless you think this is just a bash the conservative Christian thread.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Delusions and entrenched mentality are the reason people use phrases like 'God and country' without any consideration for what Jesus taught.

It seems like we are right on topic.

Unless you think this is just a bash the conservative Christian thread.
You were switching the topic to "you are ignorant for calling people stupid" (wow that sounds so weird now).

I'm fine discussing christianity in america; I think it has a negative impact.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You were switching the topic to "you are ignorant for calling people stupid" (wow that sounds so weird now).

So, I can never get on your case? Then you can get on my case.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm fine discussing christianity in america; I think it has a negative impact.

Now we are off topic.

Originally posted by Dresta
The values of the founding fathers are the values that America is based upon,

The founding fathers could hardly have been less representative of the country's population. They are only the foundation of American government.

Originally posted by Dresta
The founding fathers are held in high regard by almost every 'patriotic' American yet they still don't know what they stand for.

This is true.

Originally posted by Dresta
The English had the same religious views as was held in America at that time too you know, but then they got educated.

England wasn't founded on evangelism while much of America's white population can be traced back to missionaries of one sort of another.

Originally posted by Dresta
Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion.

I don't think the founding fathers depised religion. They were open to freedom of religion and worship what you like. As far as Jesus been a socialist...that is a stretch for me.

What you have are two things people stereotype and usually see as a negative. You have America and Christianity...to some this is a terrible combination. So, the question is this...how do you argue with a person that already made up their mind and sees us as a negative.

You can't....as someone said...people are stupid in different ways. Including non-relgious people.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I don't think the founding fathers depised religion. They were open to freedom of religion and worship what you like. As far as Jesus been a socialist...that is a stretch for me.

You are right, they did not despise religion in itself, more religious institutions.

And how is it a stretch :

1. Jesus owned nothing. 2. Jesus argued for the dissolution of the family and the establishment of communes. 3. Jesus loved all people regardless of ethnicity or class. 4. Jesus revolted against the imperial government, established religion and finance capitalism (usury). 5. Jesus taught that we should act as one body, one blood. 6. Jesus taught that his kingdom (ie nation state) is in the heart and not below the feet. 7. Jesus taught that we should fight for Justice and 'turn the other cheek' to petty morality. 8. Jesus was a laborer and a teacher. 9. Jesus practiced healing and forgiveness. 10. Jesus taught that you can't be an imperialist and a disciple at the same time.

Sounds like socialism to me. I'm sure you've heard the rich man/eye of a needle quote.

edit: Jefferson quote: "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
.

actually, from what I've heard, the founding fathers were split on issues of religion. The most often quoted have been found to be very suspicious of religious institutions (as was Stalin, states should probably be against institutions that compete with them for power), but were there not also very pious individuals who founded the nation?

And if not, what does that tell you about the founding fathers? They would have been diametric opposites to the people they ruled with regards to faith.

Also, they held slaves and oppressed women.

Originally posted by Dresta
You are right, they did not despise religion in itself, more religious institutions.

And how is it a stretch :

1. Jesus owned nothing. 2. Jesus argued for the dissolution of the family and the establishment of communes. 3. Jesus loved all people regardless of ethnicity or class. 4. Jesus revolted against the imperial government, established religion and finance capitalism (usury). 5. Jesus taught that we should act as one body, one blood. 6. Jesus taught that his kingdom (ie nation state) is in the heart and not below the feet. 7. Jesus taught that we should fight for Justice and 'turn the other cheek' to petty morality. 8. Jesus was a laborer and a teacher. 9. Jesus practiced healing and forgiveness. 10. Jesus taught that you can't be an imperialist and a disciple at the same time.

Sounds like socialism to me. I'm sure you've heard the rich man/eye of a needle quote.

edit: Jefferson quote: "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
.

you should look up what Kores has to say about Jesus and the Sword. Selective interpretations of any religious text can make whatever point you want it to.

Except those aren't selective interpretations, they're direct from the text, and a recurrent theme.

did you look up Koresh's interpretations of Jesus and the Sword?

or look for direct quotes from jesus about what to do to non-believes, your own family if they don't believe, or his thoughts on slavery.

they might be jesus quotes, but like all other things in the Bible, jesus quotes are full of contradictions. Hell, Revolutionary Theology should be enough to prove jesus isn't a pacifist.

The founding fathers were non christian, mostly. They weren't non religious, most all of them were Deists. And while not holding any special love for christianity, they had no problem with other people practicing it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The founding fathers were non christian, mostly. They weren't non religious, most all of them were Deists. And while not holding any special love for christianity, they had no problem with other people practicing it.

I think it was more of a mix:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

That's true. I was mostly counting the ones we consider the most important (most americans can name them).

I always get a kick when someone says "We say 'UNDER GOD' in the pledge rabble rabble rabble." Horray for history, not to mention the fact that it never specifies either.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's true. I was mostly counting the ones we consider the most important (most americans can name them). Pretty sure Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were two of the most important.

Originally posted by Dresta
Pretty sure Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were two of the most important.
Yes, and they were both Deists... kind of the point I was making.

Jefferson was innaguarated with his hand on the Bible?

Originally posted by Shey Tapani
Jefferson was innaguarated with his hand on the Bible?

And ardent atheists still have to swear on the Bible in court, or if they're instated into most offices. What's your point?

Originally posted by Shey Tapani
Jefferson was innaguarated with his hand on the Bible?
Jefferson rewrote the bible because he thought the original version was stupid.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jefferson rewrote the bible because he thought the original version was stupid.

I know that i just have a hard time imagining him swearing on the Bible.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jefferson rewrote the bible because he thought the original version was stupid.

He didn't rewrite it, he simply edited it. There's a difference.

Originally posted by 1000 Months
He didn't rewrite it, he simply edited it. There's a difference.

But no one can change the word of god.

I doubt that if some alien anthropologist were dropped into a random place in America that he would identify Christianity as the local religion without outright asking someone.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I doubt that if some alien anthropologist were dropped into a random place in America that he would identify Christianity as the local religion without outright asking someone.

How would an Alien identify a religion? Most likely, aliens would not have anything remotely close to a religion. Religion is unique to humans, and as far as we know, has only evolved once in Earth history.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How would an Alien identify a religion? Most likely, aliens would not have anything remotely close to a religion. Religion is unique to humans, and as far as we know, has only evolved once in Earth history.

My point was really that as much as people in America claim it to be Christian (and as much as people complain about it being too Christian) it's entirely possible to go about your day or even much of your life without ever noticing its supposed effects.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
My point was really that as much as people in America claim it to be Christian (and as much as people complain about it being too Christian) it's entirely possible to go about your day or even much of your life without ever noticing its supposed effects.

But we just got done with Christmas.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But we just got done with Christmas.

A time of the year devoted to Santa, an icon popularized by Coca-Cola.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A time of the year devoted to Santa, an icon popularized by Coca-Cola.

Still all Christian stuff. Just because Christianity has cooped everything around it, does not mean that Christianity is not there. The most pervasive part of Christianity is it's subtlety.

Originally posted by 1000 Months
He didn't rewrite it, he simply edited it. There's a difference.

He literally took scissors to portions of the Gospels that weren't to his liking.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
My point was really that as much as people in America claim it to be Christian (and as much as people complain about it being too Christian) it's entirely possible to go about your day or even much of your life without ever noticing its supposed effects.

Tacit Christians do make up a fair amount of the population. I won't say majority, because I don't think that's nearly the case, but there's plenty of them. I like to call them Christian for census purposes, but little else. Or the families that show up to church twice a year.

A friend of mine is fond of saying that he believes almost no one is truly theistic. Because if a person actually, truly, and completely believed that God was always watching and that an afterlife existed, the change in our culture would be so complete as to be unrecognizable.

....

As to the question of the founding fathers, a hearty lulz to both sides of the "were they Christian?" debate. We're completely removed from them and their generation. We're smarter, and we're an entirely different civilization. Yes, they founded America. Woo. But, frankly, I don't want such outdated relics having anything to say about the modern state of our country. Any political opinion based on theirs is simply an appeal to...not even authority. It's an appeal to historical notoriety, and a poor one at that.

It's relevant to the question of "was america founded on christian values" that republicans so often provoke.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It's relevant to the question of "was america founded on christian values" that republicans so often provoke.

Clearly. But I'm saying that it shouldn't be.

Originally posted by Dresta
Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion.

That's quite an incredible generalization. I am an American and a Christian, and I believe vehemently in separation of church and government...as do many Americans that I know, and I live in the Bible Belt...

Digi posted:
" As to the question of the founding fathers, a hearty lulz to both sides of the "were they Christian?" debate. We're completely removed from them and their generation. We're smarter, and we're an entirely different civilization. Yes, they founded America"

Whats so wrong about their ideas.

A lot of people who died in wars would be still alive if they would had sticked with their ideas on foreign policy.

Originally posted by Shey Tapani
Digi posted:
" As to the question of the founding fathers, a hearty lulz to both sides of the "were they Christian?" debate. We're completely removed from them and their generation. We're smarter, and we're an entirely different civilization. Yes, they founded America"

Whats so wrong about their ideas.

A lot of people who died in wars would be still alive if they would had sticked with their ideas on foreign policy.

What? Are you saying that religion is the cause of all wars?

Originally posted by Dresta
Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion.

With all due respect your entire thread question is unanswerably nonsensical to begin with.

First off God is a myth as is Jesus and 100% of all of the tales in the Bible. And if you think America doesn't have some form of socialism going on (then and now) then you are an ignorant human being.

Try rethinking your thread question, that you may coherently ask the question corretly.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What? Are you saying that religion is the cause of all wars?
No, that was not even close to what he said... he's referring to how most of the founding fathers believed in not getting involved in foreign wars, and if we stuck to that we wouldn't have had nearly as many wars.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, that was not even close to what he said... he's referring to how most of the founding fathers believed in not getting involved in foreign wars, and if we stuck to that we wouldn't have had nearly as many wars.

The first foreign war was 1801. It didn't take long to overcome that belief.

Yes, that's why I said IF we followed that precept... not that we did...

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
With all due respect your entire thread question is unanswerably nonsensical to begin with.

First off God is a myth as is Jesus and 100% of all of the tales in the Bible. And if you think America doesn't have some form of socialism going on (then and now) then you are an ignorant human being.

Try rethinking your thread question, that you may coherently ask the question corretly. So harsh. Why can't you be more loving. Read a bible.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
So harsh. Why can't you be more loving. Read a bible.

Or the Koran?

Islam is.....



cant deny the trinity

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Islam is.....



cant deny the trinity

You mean the 3 gods of Christianity?

Three parts of an egg. One egg.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Three parts of an egg. One egg.

I guess you can rationalize anything.

If it can, it will.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
If it can, it will.

Did you just agree with me.

Somewhat stoned

I see what you're saying.

Originally posted by Dresta
Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion. Jesus also plainly stated that he was there for spiritual affairs, etc, not for political affairs. He expressed no preference as to government, simply stated how his disciples should live, in a state of constant dependence upon god and rejection of material wealth.

When people looked to Jesus to crown him as king of the Jews, he denied them, saying that his kingdom was not of this world.

Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet that believed the world would end soon and the Jews would rule all.

This is why he was all into a rejection of material things, because he figured the world would be over soon.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet that believed the world would end soon and the Jews would rule all.

This is why he was all into a rejection of material things, because he figured the world would be over soon. That's not what he said in the bible.

Originally posted by One Free Man
That's not what he said in the bible.

And I will now quote one of my all time favorite verses ever.



This is besides the point that the Bible is a self contradicting mess of various books that often have little to do with each other.

Spiritual sandtraps. We simlply don't need material things when there are far greater things in heaven which should be your ultimate goal.

Not because the final judgement is here to come.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Spiritual sandtraps. We simlply don't need material things when there are far greater things in heaven which should be your ultimate goal.

Not because the final judgement is here to come.

That didn't address my point at all. Jesus was saying that all these horrific apocalyptic events were going to happen soon, not later.

Well its been two thousand odd years... and nothing has happened.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Three parts of an egg. One egg.

Is a whole a whole? Can three wholes be another whole?

Originally posted by Ordo
Can three wholes be another whole?

I don't see why not.


Four whole people can be one whole family.

A billion whole numbers can be one whole computer program.

Millions of whole pictured can be one whole movie.

Pure red mixed with pure blue can be pure purple.

ah but your changing the whole.

Can 3 persons be a person?

Originally posted by Ordo
ah but your changing the whole.

Can 3 persons be a person?

For that to be a valid comparison God/Jesus/Spirit would have to all be comparable to humans and all as similar to the final product as themselves. I don't believe that claim has been made.

Originally posted by Autokrat
And I will now quote one of my all time favorite verses ever.



This is besides the point that the Bible is a self contradicting mess of various books that often have little to do with each other. Your quote is taken quite out of context. The entire text reads:
It does not speak of apocalyptic endings, but rather of the damnation of the Hebrew government-church. And, believe it or not, according to the bible, everything that he describes in Matthew 23, happened within that generation. Thank you, oh-so-much, for playing.

what if the blessed the cometh in the name of the lord is actually Pat Robertson?

are we willing to admit he is the messenger?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
For that to be a valid comparison God/Jesus/Spirit would have to all be comparable to humans and all as similar to the final product as themselves. I don't believe that claim has been made.

This is a logic exercise, not a metaphor.

Can any three entities be combined to create the same entity? Can three gods be god?

Its the classic case of the blind men feeling the elephant.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
So harsh. Why can't you be more loving. Read a bible.

*hits Mairuzu with a fossil over the head*

don't you get it? the Bible's a man made invention. God was made up and so were all the other stories associated with "Him".

Originally posted by One Free Man
Your quote is taken quite out of context. The entire text reads:
It does not speak of apocalyptic endings, but rather of the damnation of the Hebrew government-church. And, believe it or not, according to the bible, everything that he describes in Matthew 23, happened within that generation. Thank you, oh-so-much, for playing.



And of course he proceeds to repeat himself on the next chapter after he's finished describing all the terrible things that will let people know the world is ending.