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Can this thread please be stickied?

O.K., I'm starting this thread to give the community an "official" general idea of each character's skill with a lightsaber. There can be variances of each character represented (ie; Vader presuit/Vader suited). Anyone who wants to, can join in, if you don't want to, please keep your comments to yourself. Here's how the rating system will go...

Each character gets 10 votes (1 vote per person) on a scale of 1-20, 1 being the lowest, 20 being the greatest or tied for the greatest duelist ever. The lowest vote for each character will be thrown out. When 10 votes have been accumulated, I or someone can total the votes and come up with an average, that number will be the "official" lightsaber skill rating for that particular character. If you are not a part of the 10 votes for a particular person, sorry tough luck. When one character is finished, "the first person" to mention a new character will take precedence, and that will be the next character to be rated. Here is an example of how the process will go...


Barriss Offee

Votes: 6, 7, 5, 4, 6, 9, 8, 7, 6, 8,

So here the low vote is 4, so that would be thrown out, the remaining 9 numbers would be totaled for an average. In this case...

Barriss Offee: Official Rating: 6.8

O.K., that was just an example, remember please try to keep all your biased thoughts in check, and give each character their full due.

First Candidate: Shaak Ti

All you have to do is put down a number, I'll start.

Shaak Ti: 14

BAD IDEA.

Before he comes in here:
Darth Bandon: 9 trillion trillion google-plex

Originally posted by One Free Man
BAD IDEA.

Before he comes in here:
Darth Bandon: 9 trillion trillion google-plex


Please keep your comments to yourself, if you want to "actually" participate in the thread fine, just don't be a troll.

problem. we can't do this one at a time. We have nothing to base our numbers off of.

This will end badly. We will want to change our votes just a few characters in,when ridiculous fallacy's happen.

Yeah this looks to be based on feeling and ideas. A canonical gauge is needed.

Originally posted by truejedi
problem. we can't do this one at a time. We have nothing to base our numbers off of.

This will end badly. We will want to change our votes just a few characters in,when ridiculous fallacy's happen.


Base your numbers off who you think has the best lightsaber skills ever (that person being a 20). If in your mind that person is a 20, you should be able to give a value to someone else, based on how much worse you think they are in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah this looks to be based on feeling and ideas. A canonical gauge is needed.


The problem with that is it takes way too long. Most people here have a pretty good grasp of what each character has done anyway.

Originally posted by wolfpack86
The problem with that is it takes way too long. Most people here have a pretty good grasp of what each character has done anyway. But our very human ability to be unable to agree on so much stuff will lead to unpleasantness. That's why the autocracy of one man or group is needed, a la Leland Chee.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But our very human ability to be unable to agree on so much stuff will lead to unpleasantness. That's why the autocracy of one man or group is needed, a la Leland Chee.

What I envisioned, was that there wouldn't even be any debating in this thread (thus no agreeing or disagreeing), each person would just put down a number and move on. Maybe that was wishful thinking.

Shaak Ti: 14

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Shaak Ti: 14


Thank you.

fine, we shall see. Much hatred will come from this, i forsee that much.

Shaak Ti: 8

Originally posted by truejedi
fine, we shall see. Much hatred will come from this, i forsee that much.

Shaak Ti: 8


Thank you for your vote, have a nice day.hi2

Shaak Ti: 8-1=7.

Ive been thinking about this, and I think I'll throw out the low vote as well as the high vote, it just makes sense.

15

Why the hell's everyone giving her such a low score? Shes at least a 12. I'd give her 14, like the other two.

Can't we have the same characters in both the Force Power and this thread?

Shaak Ti: 13

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Can't we have the same characters in both the Force Power and this thread?

Shaak Ti: 13 No because thats real logic, and this forums only full of TCW logic.

Originally posted by mattatom
No because thats real logic, and this forums only full of TCW logic.

Vote quickly, so I can change the character to Revan.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Vote quickly, so I can change the character to Revan. My vote: 11

hmmm, just thought of something, are these always assumed to be their most skilled/powerful incantations.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm, just thought of something, are these always assumed to be their most skilled/powerful incantations.


Yes, unless some other incarnation is brought to light. In the case of multiple incarnations, (ie; Vader presuit/Vader suited/AOTC Anakin/ROTS Anakin/Anakin (aboard invisible hand), the version being represented needs to be specified, as each has their own skill level.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Can't we have the same characters in both the Force Power and this thread?

Shaak Ti: 13


I just put a different character in the other thread to mix it up a little. Once Luminara is done in the "Force Rating" thread, any character can be picked.

All who want the scale changed to 1-50 say I. Three "I's" in the next 5 posts will change it, other wise it stays the same. Remember if this is done we will have to start over. Edit: If I post it doesn't count as one of the five posts.

I

nay

Originally posted by truejedi
nay

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/clsm/UserFiles/Image/collinson-eye-large.jpg

There won't be a change to the rating scale.

Drat.

edit.

Darth Exodus is so cool.

Thats just how I roll baby. awesrg

Dammit, I meant to put this smilie in instead: awepedo

ugh3

Also, thats totally my eye!

edit:Triple poast!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, thats totally my eye!

edit:Triple poast!

Don't lie.

The galaxy isn't on Orions belt bitches! Its in ME!!!!

Originally posted by Nephthys
The galaxy isn't on Orions belt bitches! Its in ME!!!! All I see is a milky iris indicative of a lack of a soul.

Quiet you! Its similar enough for the joke to work.

This is not gonna get to 10 votes at this rate.

3.1415

Originally posted by wolfpack86
Please keep your comments to yourself, if you want to "actually" participate in the thread fine, just don't be a troll. make me.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
3.1415

trowllll !!!!!!!!1!!1!!11

Originally posted by One Free Man
make me.


Such comments require no response, it's realized idiocy.

Originally posted by wolfpack86
Such comments require no response, it's realized idiocy. If they require no response, then why did you respond?

Originally posted by mattatom
If they require no response, then why did you respond?

Because people's actions =/= their words.

Originally posted by mattatom
If they require no response, then why did you respond?


I didn't respond to his "make me" attempt at starting a fire

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Because people's actions == their words.

Fixed.

Originally posted by wolfpack86
I didn't respond to his "make me" attempt at starting a fire oh, but you did. You attempted to make me by saying you didn't have to make me, thus paradoxializing your statement that you didn't have to make me.

Plus, if a response is not required, you can still post a response, which you did. You fed the troll; you lose.

Score one for the competent!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Score one for the competent! That puts me at at... +1x

awwwww... did you bookmark that?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
awwwww... did you bookmark that? I QFP'd it. Check my profile Your on there twice.

I'm on there thrice.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm on there thrice. That you are Lucien, that's because most of what you say is oh so humorous.

Shaak Ti: 15

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This is not gonna get to 10 votes at this rate.

Hm, Make a list with the best 10. Rate them. And everyone who feels like it rates them too. Theny you can try to get an average score.

1. Dark Side Bandon
2. Dark Side Revan
3. Light Side Revan
4. Light Side Galen Marek
5. Dark Side Galen Marek
6. Bane with Orbalisks
7. Kas'im
8. Exar Kun with Amulets.
9. Naga Sadow
10. Ghost Kenobi- Afterall he's more powerful than we can possibly imagine.

1: Luke Skywalker
2: Palpatine
3: Mace Windu
4: Yoda
5: Ulic Qel-Droma
6: Count Dooku
7: Kas'im
8: Exar Kun
9: Darth Revan
10: Darth Caedus

Originally posted by mattatom
1. Dark Side Bandon
2. Dark Side Revan
3. Light Side RevanGetting... getting a bit old, man.



Originally posted by mattatom
10. Ghost Kenobi- Afterall he's more powerful than we can possibly imagine. I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.

Originally posted by \\S//
2: Palpatine
3: Mace Windu
4: Yoda Really? Mace and Yoda could go either way. I'd think Mace is better in the long run b/c he's a full sized man and doesn't have to worry about using the Force for energy. He also has intangibles such as Vapaad and Shatterpoint. But Palpatine higher than those two? Is there something post-ROTJ I'm missing?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Really? Mace and Yoda could go either way. I'd think Mace is better in the long run b/c he's a full sized man and doesn't have to worry about using the Force for energy. He also has intangibles such as Vapaad and Shatterpoint. But Palpatine higher than those two? Is there something post-ROTJ I'm missing? DE. A more powerful-than-ever Palpatine inhabiting the clone body of his physical prime.



And in terms of saber combat, Shatterpoint falls under the Force category, not skill with a blade.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Getting... getting a bit old, man.



I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit. As are we Lucien, as are we.

Your imagination is limited however.

Matt, I agree with the Canadian. You have to accept the truth that Bandon is a nobody and that Revan is far above him, well far above anyone else for that matter.

1: Luke Skywalker 20
2: Yoad 20
3: Palpatine 20
4: Darth Vader 19
5: Count Dooku 19
6: Exar Kun 19
7: Darth Revan 18
8: Darth Bandon 17
9: Mace Windu 16 (Quigon 16)
10: Darth Maul 16

You have Windu on par with Maul? Why is Windu so low? Why is Vader so high?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Why is Vader so high?

Didn't you see how much he was burning...

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Didn't you see how much he was burning...

1: Luke Skywalker 18
2: Palpatine 19
3: Mace Windu 20
4: Yoda 20
5: Ulic Qel-Droma 18
6: Count Dooku 18
7: Kas'im 18
8: Exar Kun 18
9: Darth Revan 18?
10: Darth Caedus 17

Where's Anakin/Vader? Lose the unknown (Revan).

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Matt, I agree with the Canadian. You have to accept the truth that Bandon is a nobody and that Revan is far above him, well far above anyone else for that matter. NEVER!

Originally posted by Darth Martin
You have Windu on par with Maul? Why is Windu so low? Why is Vader so high?

Mace was the equal of Qui-Gon. Though both may be greater Jedis then Maul. Maul was impressive with his LS skills, that's what this thread is about.
Luke became the greatest Jedi-Grandmaster ever.
(Movie chars > non-lucas fiction, anyway, lukes origins are set in the movies)
Yoda and Dooku are > Mace. Palpatine, not holding back was Yodas equal.
And even though movie > non-lucas fiction, Revan and Exar were beasts, that's where I'm a bit biased .
Mace isn't low if you consider that he is among the best.

QGJ was on par with Mace in TPM. In Mace's prime (ROTS) he was a more accomplished swordsman. Mace>Maul.

Originally posted by mattatom
QGJ Mace>Maul.

I disagree, Maul's LS skills were more impressive IMHO. May be that Samuel fighting skills just look really bad and Mace is more awesome in his non-movie appearances. But judging from the Movies alone Maul > Mace.

Because Windu was escorted by three Jedi Masters he got a bit of a sneak peek into Palpatine's lightsaber style before the duel technically began. If Palpatine had not been disarmed late in the duel or if he had had the element of surprise then there's no telling where the fight might have gone, but in Dark Empire, in the body of his youth, it's safe to assume that Palpatine was Windu's superior. In concerns to another post, Qui-Gon was Windu's equal-whilst Dooku & Yoda were his superiors-only before Windu had mastered Vaapad, but by the time of ROTS, however, Windu can be considered as the greatest swordsman of the Jedi order in the history of the Galaxy. And on another subject, according to on panel evidence in Dark Empire, Luke Skywalker was indefinately the most skilled lightsaber duelist of all time, and just from the films Skywalker was evidently the most gifted swordsman, instaneously mimicking Djem So during his second duel with Vader.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Mace was the equal of Qui-Gon. Though both may be greater Jedis then Maul. Maul was impressive with his LS skills, that's what this thread is about.
Luke became the greatest Jedi-Grandmaster ever.
(Movie chars > non-lucas fiction, anyway, lukes origins are set in the movies)
Yoda and Dooku are > Mace. Palpatine, not holding back was Yodas equal.
And even though movie > non-lucas fiction, Revan and Exar were beasts, that's where I'm a bit biased .
Mace isn't low if you consider that he is among the best.

1.That was in TPM. Some 13 or so years prior to ROTS. Before the Clone Wars, Mace creating Vapaad, and mastering his shatterpoint technique.
2.Okay. But you just said yourself that movies>EU. Luke did not touch a percentage of what he'd later go on to do in the EU.
3.Yoda and Mace is a toossup as far as sword skills go. But I'd say Mace>Tyranus.
4.Palpatine holding back is an opinion of yours. Doesn't mean I subscribe to it. I hold the belief that Yoda was too much for Sidious in swordmanship so Sidious took to the rafters and started launching pods. Something he felt he held the advantage in.
5.I think in this particular forum, everything holds even ground. Except for "What If" type stories.
6.IMO he should be higher than some of the people you've listed.

maul > mace windu?

of course. haermm

Maul > Anoon > Qui-Gon = Mace = Samuel L. Jackon < Snakes > Indiana Jones= Harrison Ford < Scottish Terrorists < James Earl Jones = Vader= 80% of Sideous > Yoda and Luke > Force

Maul > God.

it all makes sense nao.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
maul > mace windu?

of course. haermm

Maul > Anoon > Qui-Gon = Mace = Samuel L. Jackon < Snakes > Indiana Jones= Harrison Ford < Scottish Terrorists < James Earl Jones = Vader= 80% of Sideous > Yoda and Luke > Force

Maul > God.

it all makes sense nao.

LS fighting skills.... facepalm

Originally posted by mattatom
QGJ was on par with Mace in TPM. In Mace's prime (ROTS) he was a more accomplished swordsman. Mace>Maul.
The only thing redeeming this thread is that you see the fallacy here.

If you do not then everything is ruined. Please show me how everything is not, in fact, ruined!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The only thing redeeming this thread is that you see the fallacy here.

If you do not then everything is ruined. Please show me how everything is not, in fact, ruined! Thanks...I think?

No. I was saying that it was wrong on every possible level and that you have ruined KMC if you were being sincere.

To un-ruin KMC, tell me exactly how you were being facetious. Or I'll down 80 bottles of sleeping pills and it'll be ALL YOUR FAULT!!!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
No. I was saying that it was wrong on every possible level and that you have ruined KMC if you were being sincere.

To un-ruin KMC, tell me exactly how you were being facetious. Or I'll down 80 bottles of sleeping pills and it'll be ALL YOUR FAULT!!! I was being completely sincere.

:

Me thinks failthread needs to close.

This thread is ok, far away from a failthread.

Anyway. Maul >= Mace, at least we know whose fighting skills are better.

Mace>Maul.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Mace>Maul.

Command of the Force, yes.

Fighting skills, nooooo

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Command of the Force, yes.

Fighting skills, nooooo Uh, based on what? Maul may have been credited as the "deadliest Sith apprenticeship in history", and he, like Mace, was a high-end master of multiple forms. But unlike Maul, Mace was the creator, perfecter, and master of Vaapad. That gives him a heulluva an advantage over Maul. And Mace, unlike Maul had fought innumerable battles in his lifetime, and had spent 3 straight years in combat during the Clone Wars.

Maul would give Mace a very good challenge, but the Zabrak is going down in both a saber and Force contest.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
1: Luke Skywalker 18
2: Palpatine 19
3: Mace Windu 20
4: Yoda 20
5: Ulic Qel-Droma 18
6: Count Dooku 18
7: Kas'im 18
8: Exar Kun 18
9: Darth Revan 18?
10: Darth Caedus 17
Where's Anakin/Vader? Lose the unknown (Revan).
Alright then, I think your list is very very accurate. The Jedi competing at the height of the Jedi Order such as Windu & Yoda were best b/c more Jedi means more competition. By 50 BBY the Jedi Order is the culmination of accumulated Jedi knowledge and technology acquired over the course of twenty thousand years of advancement. As a result you have Mace Windu, who has achieved shatterpoint and mastered a previously unknown eigth form of dueling, Vaapad. And then we have Yoda who has overcome the greatest amount of competition by taking a form of Jedi saber-combat as far as it will go in order to compensate for his meek size. What would you rank Anakin (ROTS), Obi-Wan, Maul, Bane, Ventress, Katarn, Cade and Krayt as?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Uh, based on what? Maul may have been credited as the "deadliest Sith apprenticeship in history", and he, like Mace, was a high-end master of multiple forms. But unlike Maul, Mace was the creator, perfecter, and master of Vaapad. That gives him a heulluva an advantage over Maul. And Mace, unlike Maul had fought innumerable battles in his lifetime, and had spent 3 straight years in combat during the Clone Wars.

Maul would give Mace a very good challenge, but the Zabrak is going down in both a saber and Force contest.

Maul went against Qui-gon who was Mace equal in LS skills and his Superior in the Force AND against his apprentice. He killed Qui-Gon. That's enough.

Mace is great, with his command of the Force he would win against Maul more often then not. But Vaapad doesn't make him invincible, i can't understand the hype.....
Maul has the greater speed, agility and is a better fighter, a born fighter.
Judging from their Movie fights he would take a "LS only" fight quite often. The best Mace could get is a draw, and this only if we take his EU fluff, the overhyped Vaapad.

Mace (with Vaapad) vs Qui-Gon and Obiwan TPM would go down hard, without taking Quigon with him.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Maul went against Qui-gon who was Mace equal in LS skills and his Superior in the Force AND against his apprentice. He killed Qui-Gon. That's enough.

Mace is great, with his command of the Force he would win against Maul more often then not. But Vaapad doesn't make him invincible, i can't understand the hype.....
Maul has the greater speed, agility and is a better fighter, a born fighter.
Judging from their Movie fights he would take a "LS only" fight quite often. The best Mace could get is a draw, and this only if we take his EU fluff, the overhyped Vaapad.

Mace (with Vaapad) vs Qui-Gon and Obiwan TPM would go down hard, without taking Quigon with him. Qui-Gon, like Anoon Bondara, was one of the greatest duels of their time. Mace, like Yoda and Dooku, was one of the greatest duels ever. And if I remember Shadow Hunter correctly, Bondara wasn't exactly a slouch against Maul, either.

And that "over-hyped" Vaapad of his allowed him to overwhelm RotS Sidious--and I dare you to argue that Maul is above his master. The superconducting loop feeds of the opposing Dark Sider's own strengths and allows the user to match it. Maul's use of the Dark Side to enhance his physical prowess will be equaled by the Vaapad practitioner, and thrown back in the Dark Sider's face. On top of that it lets the practitioner use their own"inner Darkness" to fuel their strength. Mace>Maul.

I'm beginning to doubt that this is a joke. Thus:
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Maul went against Qui-gon who was Mace equal in LS skills and his Superior in the Force AND against his apprentice. He killed Qui-Gon. That's enough.
So you have:
Maul > Jinn + Kenobi (TPM)
Jinn = Mace
Maul > Mace + Kenobi
Maul > Mace

You've ignored some things.

One of those things is that Mace Windu's style makes him considerably more potent in pitched battle than in a sparring setting. His style channels his darker emotions into a form usable by a Jedi. It also poses a constant threat in the form of a fall. It is unlikely that Vaapad's metaphysical aspect, in the form of a 'loop or even simply channeling rage, was ever applied against Jinn.

Another thing that you've ignored is time frame. Because we are using peak-combatants, Mace will be at his peak. Mace's peak incarnation did not coincide with TPM. Your equivalency (Mace is the same as Jinn) is therefore invalid. The Mace we are dealing with is far more practiced and far more skillful than the one pitted against Jinn.

A more apt progression would be:
Maul > Jinn
Mace > Jinn
Mace ? Maul

You understand that there is no algebraic proof that demonstrates the relationship between terms that share only this? If X > Z and Y > Z there is no relation demonstrated between X and Y.

So, in summary, you are wrong because you are ignoring the specific combatants and you are wrong because you are ignoring the combatants' specific attributes.


This is false. Mace has speed: He hit Vastor several times before he could blink. Mace has agility: He absolutely demolished some gunships while falling in midair. Mace is the superior combatant. He is also the most warlike Jedi- his style is designed specifically to give him access to the "sheer-why-not-let's-just-FIGHT" of battle. This is unique among Jedi.


"Overhyped" is a mush term. Feel free to define it at any time.



Questionable. Also: Doubtful. Also: irrelevant. Also: prove it.

shut up. D<

NO U


D':<

Lucien

the of their time - ever argument is laughable at best.
Yoda and Dooku > Mace, btw.

I belong to the side which believes that Sidious faked his defeat. He killed 3 of Mace's fellow Jedi Master and Mace couldn't do s**t about it? How long did it take? Was he so slow and bad to not even block one stroke? Was he so surprised, even though his skills are so great and his LS was drawn? Think about it. To toy with someone and to lose against someone... to achieve what you want and playing you cards right, it can be insidious.

Nemesis

Everything is a joke, especially the science some people try to make out of Star Wars. Try to enjoy it, it's still funny and often a good laugh.

Mace developed Vaapad with a friend, whose name i forgot, they stalemated later when they faught.
To develop somthing is one thing, you still have to practice the art. So when sparring it's most likely that one trains it, uses it.
IIRC Vaapad could have been developed prior to Quigons Death.
It doesn't make you invincible, it's not the only VII form and it has it's weaknesses. It's more aggressive, it's more offensive but it can be countered. Grievous (who was a joke fo Dooku) proved it, he stalemated Mace w/ Vaapad. Obi-Wan, as much as i dislike him, might have been even more gifted as a fighter then Qui gon and Mace. He achieved feats, Mace failed at. Defeating Gen G and surviving/besting Anakin.
So you are wrong when you think that Vaapad is enough to defeat a Master like Quigon. Mace improved yes, he might have got a slight edge but still, Maul had it too against Quigon AND Obiwan.

You are wrong again. Mace has speed and agility, like almost any other Jedi do. Maul however was the embodiment of a warrior, he was faster, at least as focused and gifted with a greater agility then Mace. He was (in my eyes) the superior combatant. Though he is dead and one can't ignore all hype I still give Mace 50%. Don't forget we talk about LS skill only. Mace was a Jedimaster, he surely had a greater command of the force.

Overhyped. Some people read or hear a funny word, hear that it's something new and believe it to be superior to everything else. But numbers don't mean as much as some people believe. Vaapad had it's flaws, Grievous stalemated Mace w/Vaapad, Dooku knew it and was still better than Mace and his friend stalemated him too.

Questionable? Like Mace's superiority over Maul maybe.
Doubtful? I don't think so. More like "most likely".
Irrelevant? Mauls "only" fight and the measure by which one has to take Mace. It can't be irrelevant to ask how Mace would fare in Maul's situation. I don't think he would do as well as Maul did.
Prove it? How can you prove something when both Chars in question are dead? Maul and Quigon. Why demmand prove when it's clear that neither side can prove anything. I hope you can grasp the point.

No offense, but i can't take you serious and i hope you don't take me serious at all. I understand your points and i know what to expect from you. So let's agree to disagree.

At least i had a good laugh and i hope you too .

It is canon that Sidious didn't fake his lighsaber defeat, the subject of this thread, thanks to a quote from GL.

Originally posted by truejedi
It is canon that Sidious didn't fake his lighsaber defeat, the subject of this thread, thanks to a quote from GL.

Link? Interview or Video would do?

Its the extra features on the ROTS DVD. It may be on youtube. ( :

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Maul went against Qui-gon who was Mace equal in LS skills

Way before he created and perfected Vaapad, the deadliest of all lightsaber forms. Also, sparring doesn't = combat. Just because Joe beat Mike wile sparring doesn't mean shit when it comes time to throw down for real. Also, I can't recall the exact quote, but Yoda commented that Mace was "holding back" during their sparring session, or something to that effect . Why? Because he obviously wouldn't tap into Vaapad for a simple sparring contest. Vaapad is serious, serious business and is not to be used unless absolutely necessary (i.e. life or death combat).

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
and his Superior in the Force AND against his apprentice.

Uh, ok, superior in the force? WTF? Where's your source for that bs?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Maul has the greater speed

Yeah faster than "dozens of blades attacking from every angle"? I think not.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Way before he crested and perfected Vaapad, the deadliest lightsaber form.



Uh, ok, superior in the force? WTF? Where's your source for that bs?



Yeah faster than "dozens of blades attacking from every angle"? I think not.

crested and perfected Vaapad. Which year?

Superior in the force. Yes. Quigon mastered the force enough to be still present after his death. Like Obiwan, Vader and Yoda...

I saw the "dozens of blades attacking from every angle" in Episode III Incredible, no Maul appeared much much slower with his VII Juyo

So if Mace Windu is a 20 and > the likes of Luke and Maul, then Yoda and Dooku had to be 21, while Grievous and his "Vaapad friend" who both stalemated him are 20 also. And Obi-wan, a young jedi knight is 21 also. Gimme a freaking break.

Truejedi, thanks for the info, I will search for it.
It might be even true. The purple sabre was also said to represent the cross of the blue (light side) and the red (dark side), till we learned that Samuel just wanted something special and Lucas kissed his ass.

.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I saw the "dozens of blades attacking from every angle" in Episode III Incredible, no Maul appeared much much slower with his VII Juyo

Don't be so f***ing obtuse. If we went solely on "movie speed", then we can come to the conclusion that Kit Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar are the slowest, dumbest assholes the galaxy had ever known. Movies obviously have restrictions based on the ability of the actors. Kenobi took 13 seconds to execute a "confusing" spin maneuver when fighting Vader in ANH. Does that mean we should take that at face value? NO!!! All TPM shows is that Ray Park is a better martial artist (at least the choreographed kind) than Samuel L. Jackson.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Don't be so f***ing obtuse. If we went solely on "movie speed", then we can come to the conclusion that Kit Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar are the slowest, dumbest assholes the galaxy had ever known. Movies obviously have restrictions based on the ability of the actors. Kenobi took 13 seconds to execute a "confusing" spin maneuver when fighting Vader in ANH. Does that mean we should take that at face value? NO!!! All TPM shows is that Ray Park is a better martial artist (at least the choreographed kind) than Samuel L. Jackson.

Calm down young padawan

Yeah Movies have restrictions, Matrix for example

And Ray Park would kill Samuel, you surely can't deny that

What about the Gen G stalemate or the stalemate with his friend, who knew Vaapad too?

Wow, Batman-Prime is really taking this joke far (please let this be a joke).

... Almost as far as Matt goes with Bandon.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Wow, Batman-Prime is really taking this joke far (please let this be a joke).

... Almost as far as Matt goes with Bandon. I don't go that far

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Kenobi took 13 seconds to execute a "confusing" spin maneuver when fighting Vader in ANH.

Funniest 13 seconds in Star Wars!! and "confusing" is a good word for it!


also, batman-prime, Novels are canon, even if what they describe doesn't match your interpretation of what you saw. If it is a fact that is contradicted, then the novel is void, but in ROTS: Pg. 329, it says that Mace's blade moved "almost too fast to see."

Just because you were able to see it, it is still canon that it was "almost too fast to see." If your interpretation is that it was plenty easy to see, then your opinion still doesn't matter as much as the canon statement.

Batman-Prime, if George Lucas had had the money and had cared about fight coreography what-so-ever, in Episode IV Obi-Wan would have visibly been slightly faster and more agile than Darth Maul in Episode I, Darth Vader would have wreaked collatoral damage on everything in sight in his duel with Luke in Episode V, and Windu's movements would have been utterly ferocious in comparison to everyone but Palpatine and Yoda, and the swordsmanship would have consisted of techniques not yet discovered.

Yeah, seriously Batty, if you wanna stick around here without being shunned, you're gonna have to realize that canon isn't up to your interpretation.

So your excuse for the idiocy you've presented us is that you find it amusing. It is generally considered bad form for a troll to admit its intentions so soon. A word to the wise, in order to get a more violent reaction from someone, you should make them think that this is serious business. Then they will kno that messin with chu is some bad shiit dude.

So, in the interest of saving time, I'm just going to give you a "I am rubber and you are glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" to counter the "NO U1111" that you sent my way. It really isn't worth my time to respond to trolls. One of the others will be more than capable of pointing out where your technique is lacking, and also where your faux-logic could use some work. (Along with exigency, competence, or at least the projection thereof, is critical for a successful troll.)

Guys, here are some starting points:

Problems:
1. The stalemate is irrelevant. This borders on Truculent level of pertinence.
2. Practice is dealt with in
3. The Clone Wars provides more than enough opportunity for Mace to practice, regardless of when Vaapad was completed.
4. No one said it was invincible.
5. It is uniquely positioned to aid a Jedi.
6. Focus on style, rather than mastery, is foolish (or else Makashi would dominate everybody always)
7. Arguing that Kenobi is superior to Mace will require a hell of a lot more than an indirect reference to "feats."
8. When did Mace try to best Anakin?
9. No one said that Vaapad alone is enough to defeat Jinn.
10. The algebraic proof regarding Mace:Jinn:Maul remains fallacious.
11. Repetition does not make something true.
12. How does being "the embodiment of a warrior" make Maul faster than someone whose speed is described as "invisible" and is able to strike Vastor Vastor "twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink"? This is, again, Truculent level of inanity. (No offense.)
13. You've yet to establish any level of agility or speed for Maul.
14. Why are you rambling about hype again? How does what people think about the subject change what the facts are?
15. Great. No one cares about the Force at this point.
16. We have numbers now? That's great. Here I thought we had only the relative difficulty of each character's feats and their confirmed skill to assess the capabilities of each character. Now that we have numbers we're home free!
17. Dooku and Grievous are not Maul. Also, Dooku and Grievous are potentially even more deadly. Your ABC fails on this and one other count: Neither Dooku nor Grievous ever fought Maul.
18. Stating something doesn't make it true. Still. Burden of proof (I know it can be confusing) lies with the person making the assertion. So, PROVE IT.
19. It is irrelevant because we are not having a FIGHTING JINN CONTEST. We're having a fighting each other contest.
20. I am demanding proof because if we ignore the need for proof then we are just making things up and may as well be writing fanfiction.


Don't worry. I don't think anyone will ever run into that problem from thinking about what you have to say.

Batman-Prime was sincerely correct on one point, Vaapad is overrated.

And I say this because Takai described that it was the best, but before anyone in this topic afforms to it being the greatest form of all time, it is important to remember that Vaapad in particular was so aggressive that it was highly susceptible to the defensive perfection offered by Dooku's variation of Makashi, which was why it was stated in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku was, in fact, Windu's superior while fed by the dark energies of a planet corrupted by and enveloped in the Dark Side.

It is important to remember that no form is better than all the others, and that if you're strong enough in the force you can make any form the best because the most important part of a lightsaber duel is the force.

I like this. I'm not sure I agree in all situations (look at Kas'im- he had Bane beat until he gave him room to breathe, or Mara, who killed Caedus until author fiat/his prehensile peniREVAN kicked in) but it is certainly correct in general.

And, once again, no one has said that Vaapad is the best form.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I like this. I'm not sure I agree in all situations (look at Kas'im- he had Bane beat until he gave him room to breathe, or Mara, who killed Caedus until author fiat/his prehensile peniREVAN kicked in) but it is certainly correct in general.

And, once again, no one has said that Vaapad is the best form.

How about when Obi-Wan destroyed Grevous in their saber duel, he would have been destroyed if it weren't for precognition. If Jedi A is stronger in the the force than Jedi B, A's precognition will surface sooner than B's, therefore A has a window of time to react sooner, skill cannot compensate for a predetermined reaction to it.

its like martial arts. no art is definitly the best. It is who is best at their chosen form.

Originally posted by \S//
Batman-Prime was sincerely correct on one point, Vaapad is overrated.

And I say this because Takai described that it was the best, but before anyone in this topic afforms to it being the greatest form of all time, it is important to remember that Vaapad in particular was so aggressive that it was highly susceptible to the defensive perfection offered by Dooku's variation of Makashi, which was why it was stated in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku was, in fact, Windu's superior while fed by the dark energies of a planet corrupted by and enveloped in the Dark Side.

It is important to remember that no form is better than all the others, and that if you're strong enough in the force you can make any form the best because the most important part of a lightsaber duel is the force.

Just wanted to reiterate to you that I said it was the deadliest of all forms, not necessarily the best, as that particular aspect is somewhat generalized, and as such, can be defined in many ways.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Just wanted to reiterate to you that I said it was the deadliest of all forms, not necessarily the best, as that particular aspect is somewhat generalized, and as such, can be defined in many ways.
That aspect is also canon. And true.

That doesn't make it a win button (although it often is).

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That aspect is also canon. And true.

That doesn't make it a win button (although it often is).

No... if it's canon, then it's undoubtedly a "win button", as one can't effectively argue w/ an absolute. However, I'm saying that the term "best" can be defined differently. I definitely think Vaapad is the most bad-ass (best) form of them all. But, one could argue that another form is the best for whatever reason. I define best as the one offering me the best chance to quickly decapitate the mutha fukka in front of me (Vaapad). Another could argue that Soresu is better, because it focuses more on defense (the Jedi way... cough... sarcasm), and not killing/maiming his/her opponent. Of course I know that you already knew this. I just wanted to clarify my comment.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, seriously Batty, if you wanna stick around here without being shunned, you're gonna have to realize that canon isn't up to your interpretation.

Yeah, Lucy. BTW I'm quite long on KMC and I don't mind being shunned by people who prefer to swalow everything without using their brain. The canon has it's share of contradictions, else there would be nothing to talk about. Still the SW-Nazis try to force their "canon" upon others, even if the are wrong. How could i forget this fact

Red Nami, calling something idiocy, without understanding it, is not very nice, your parents failed to teach you this lesson, I'm sure you don't behave this way in RL.
Reread the meaning of trolling facepalm before accusing others.
Since you will never grasp the point. Let me just say. You are wrong, plain and simple.
But i wish you still the best .

I like this guy.

Shun the non-believer. Shuuunn. Shuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnn.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Shun the non-believer. Shuuunn. Shuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnn.

Yeah! Burn the witcher!

Oh, wait!

I don't know what's the problem.
I shared my opinion like any other.
People disagree, that's nothing special here.
I placed Mace even one place over Maul, because he is a Master.
Instead of behaving childish, those people could post their LS Skill Rating Lists.

But who am I to tell the self-styled emperors of the SW Forum what they have to do

You're no one. Good to see you've accepted the truth.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're no one. Good to see you've accepted the truth.

And you are someone special?

Oh I see over 10000 posts. An KMC Celebrity!

Truth hurts, you surely know.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

1)I don't know what's the problem.
2)I shared my opinion like any other.
3)People disagree, that's nothing special here.
4)I placed Mace even one place over Maul, because he is a Master.
5)Instead of behaving childish, those people could post their LS Skill Rating Lists.


1) You're causing the problem by trolling.
2) You shared your opinion like it was a fact, and you failed miserably.
3) People don't disagree with you, canon does.
4) Mace is way above Maul.
5) We can't take this thread into our own hands, it's up to the original poster to show up and continue the thread.

Bonus answer: You still haven't replied to any of the arguments that Nemesis gave (you are allowed to highlight the spoiler). You should do this because people might take you seriously then.

Bonus bonus answer: Don't act like you're the underdog who is right while we are the oppressing party. No, you are the stuck in a box troll, who is wrong.

Originally posted by Weltall
I like this guy.

I hate you.

Ugh, I can't stand the "underdogs" who play the victim. They whine and moan but you end up disliking them even more.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ugh, I can't stand the "underdogs" who play the victim. They whine and moan but you end up disliking them even more.

Me neither. And even worse is, there are so many of them.

i love everybody. we are all good friends and comrades!!

Originally posted by truejedi
i love everybody. we are all good friends and comrades!! We're also...

No strangers to love.

1) You don't even understand what trolling is.
You or Lucien are trolling at the moment. So this is my last post to you two, this thread derailed already far enough.
2) I share my opinion the way any other does. Nami or Lucy share theirs like it would be a fact also (and no it isn't). I don't behave like a SW-Nazi though .
3) Gen G stalemated Mace, his friend Bulq stalemated him. Quigon was his equal. Anyway.
4) Don't cry, don't panic. Try something that may help you in the future too. Go to the post with my List, read it. Compare it to your statement. Read further of my post and see that some thing aren't in doubt... facepalm Mace > Maul, Maul > Mace
5) You still should stay on topic, else it is trolling. I don't know how you people preserved your account with that kind of behaviour.


Bonus answer: Do yourself a favour go to Red Namis post and read it. Try to understand what he writes... take you time... if you can't understand it, try it again.
He does not wish a discussion with me and i don't wish to discuss it with him any longer. He failed countering my points, kept ignoring the facts he disliked and demanded what he wasn't able to provide.
I won't highlight what he has written, as his wish was to discuss his points with another user of this board. Since I'm well educated, I won't force him to talk with me. I couldn't care less.

Bonus answer two: You can't agree with each other, I don't expect you to agree with me. You views on this topic are fanatic it seems and few fanatics are able to think and change their views.
I'm not a underdog, not on KMC and this part belongs there too. I don't whine, i point just at you rude behaviour . Further i don't feel the wish to be liked by people like you or Lucy.
I search for opinions which allow me to see some thing in a different way. That's what the internet is for.

Now please feel free to ignore me. But I won't be surprised if you continue with insults and rage. I would have never expected that this thread means so much to you

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Now please feel free to ignore me. I didn't read any of that, but this jumped out at me. Advice taken, you make #5.

Ok.


Since spoilers are super effective against this guy (what type does that make him?) here goes:

Well, I gave anybody that wants to engage their argument for them, complete with factory-pushed WIN button. Feel free to copypaste it as your own- he'll never know it was plagarized. I'd do it myself, but since Forum Ninja Genesis Sorgo I simply haven't had the heart to go at somebody that doesn't want to talk. So I will not.


Hey, I just noticed I avoid the word "won't" because I hate the non-standard abbreviation. Advice?

Edit:
(spoilerd for civility)
Did anybody else notice the grammar this guy uses?


lol!

i'll admit, though Mace is better than maul, i have no problem with someone holding an opinion other than my own, as long as they don't try to sell it as indisputable fact. (DS comes to mind)

Won't not willing not would Willy? That's what I'd say.

Originally posted by truejedi
i'll admit, though Mace is better than maul, i have no problem with someone holding an opinion other than my own, as long as they don't try to sell it as indisputable fact. (DS comes to mind)

But... that's what he does.

I'm going to follow the Canadian now, if one offers to be ignored, it is rude to decline.

Originally posted by wolfpack86
The problem with that is it takes way too long. Most people here have a pretty good grasp of what each character has done anyway.

Shaak Ti: 1

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Shaak Ti: 1