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Kill or be killed.

team 1 10/10

ronnie has recently shown us what jason can do, once he applies a little effort. that said, he turns kilowog into salt

Originally posted by Galan007
ronnie has recently shown us what jason can do, once he applies a little effort. that said, he turns kilowog into salt

I don't see Jason transmuting one of the most seasoned GLs into salt.

Originally posted by batdude123
I don't see Jason transmuting one of the most seasoned GLs into salt. open your eyes then. uhuh

Kilowog would donkey punch Jason.

Originally posted by Galan007
open your eyes then. uhuh

shock

Still...

nope.

Originally posted by batdude123
shock

Still...

nope. well, i guess i did exaggerate a bit. afterall, jason doesn't just have to transform kilowog into salt. it could be mud, water, steam, whatever.

and does kilowog have some kind of defense against transmutational attacks that i'm unaware of??

Originally posted by Galan007
well, i guess i did exaggerate a bit. afterall, jason doesn't just have to transform kilowog into salt. it could be mud, water, steam, whatever.

and does kilowog have some kind of defense against transmutational attacks that i'm unaware of??
http://www.craphound.com/images/homebrewgreenlanternring.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
http://www.craphound.com/images/homebrewgreenlanternring.jpg different lanterns have different prowess with their rings - so my question remains.

also, do you believe a GL ring would be more difficult to transmute then say... johnny sorrow's mask?

Originally posted by Galan007
also, do you believe a GL ring would be more difficult to transmute then say... johnny sorrow's mask?

Sorrow has to turn tangible in order to remove his mask, which makes him vulnerable to attacks. That's how Ronnie was able to manipulate it.

It would be one thing if Sorrow was still intangible when Firestorm manipulated his mask.

I bet you quickly checked that from your comics folder.

Originally posted by batdude123
http://www.craphound.com/images/homebrewgreenlanternring.jpg

Batdude just brought it.

Originally posted by batdude123
Sorrow has to turn tangible in order to remove his mask, which makes him vulnerable to attacks. That's how Ronnie was able to manipulate it.

It would be one thing if Sorrow was still intangible when Firestorm manipulated his mask. you didn't answer either of my questions.

Originally posted by Galan007
you didn't answer either of my questions.

Fine, if you want it in black and white...

1. The Ring.
2. Yes.

Better? uhuh

Originally posted by batdude123
Fine, if you want it in black and white...

1. The Ring.
2. Yes.

Better? uhuh 1.)
Originally posted by Galan007
different lanterns have different prowess with their rings - so my question remains.

2.) how/why?

Originally posted by Galan007
2.) how/why?

Simple answer: Because the ring provides resistance towards transmutation.

Drawn-out, more technical answer: Meh, don't feel like getting into it.

Originally posted by batdude123
Simple answer: Because the ring provides resistance towards transmutation.

Drawn-out, more technical answer: Meh, don't feel like getting into it. OMACs have a catalog, and subsequently, defenses against every hero on earth. nevertheless, jason still transmuted a few of them. meh, whatevs..

m'kay.

Wouldnt the ring give a auto defense against transmutation attacks?

Is there anyone before that managed to transmutate a A class Lantern?

Jason Probably could transmute Wog. But Wog would be moving so fast and using attacks. He isn't going to be just waiting to get turned into salt. Now the ring itself, what could Firestorm do to that?

Originally posted by Galan007
OMACs have a catalog, and subsequently, defenses against every hero on earth. nevertheless, jason still transmuted a few of them. meh, whatevs..

m'kay.

Now let me ask YOU a question...

Hypothetically, if say Hal and Jason were to have a battle, do you think it would end with Jason simply turning Hal into salt, mud, water, etc?

Originally posted by Zeuodin
But Wog would be moving so fast wog's a brawler, not a speedster.

Originally posted by batdude123
Now let me ask YOU a question...

Hypothetically, if say Hal and Jason were to have a battle, do you think it would end with Jason simply turning Hal into salt, mud, water, etc? no. though i do think it could be a decent battle

but kilowog is NO hal.

Originally posted by Galan007
wog's a brawler, not a speedster.

no. though i do think it could be a decent battle.

but kilowog is NO hal.

I see.

So while he wouldn't be able to do that to Hal, he could easily do it to one of the most experienced Lanterns that trained and mentored Hal, in the first few seconds? baka

Nah....

I'd assume that based on the level of protection auto-shields have given even to rookie lanterns (Black Holes), transmutation wouldn't be a problem.

Originally posted by batdude123
I see.

So while he wouldn't be able to do that to Hal, he could easily do it to one of the most experienced Lanterns that trained and mentored Hal in the first few seconds? baka

Nah.... you're looking at jason's abilities too narrowly. meaning: there's also the option of him transmuting kilowog's energies into something inert - then going on to transmute kilowog himself.

...or he can utilize the same attack he one-shotted an amped kalibak with..

Originally posted by Galan007
...or he can utilize the same attack he one-shotted an amped kalibak with..

Or Black Adam.

Still, that's Mcduffie. The way he treated Orion was maddening.

Originally posted by Galan007
then going on to transmute kilowog himself.

Which again, I really don't see happening.

As Philo said before, Lanterns can basically camp out and take naps inside black holes.

Manipulation of his molecules/atoms is highly unlikely.

Originally posted by batdude123
Which again, I really don't see happening.

As Philo said before, Lanterns can basically camp out and take naps inside black holes.

Manipulation of his molecules/atoms is highly unlikely. ...unless his shield's energy is transmuted into something else entirely.

Originally posted by Galan007
...unless his shield's energy is transmuted into something else entirely.

... and if the shield's energy easily withstands being inside a black hole, manipulating it, once again, is highly unlikely.

Originally posted by batdude123
... and if the shield's energy easily withstands being inside a black hole, manipulating it, once again, is highly unlikely. that's a faulty comparison.

i'm not talking about jason blasting kilowog with enough juice to break his 'black hole-tanking' shields... i'm talking about the shields being transmuted into a completely different energy type all together.

Originally posted by Galan007
that's a faulty comparison.

i'm not talking about jason blasting kilowog with enough juice to break his 'black hole-tanking' shields... i'm talking about the shields being transmuted into a completely different energy type all together.

Not really.

Him manipulating Kilowog's energy would consist of breaking it down and/or altering it to another substance. If a black hole can't manipulate and/or affect GL energy (and black holes do manipulate energy which is evidenced by gravitational lensing) in any way, then it's pretty ridiculous to say that Jason would turn Wog's shield into butter (or whatever) with a flick of the wrist.

Also, your argument seems to be double standard-ish. If FS could manipulate Wog's auto shield, then why couldn't he do that to Hal as well? Considering we're talking about the energy shields themselves...

It doesn't fit.

Originally posted by batdude123
Not really.

Him manipulating Kilowog's energy would consist of breaking it down and/or altering it to another substance. If a black hole can't manipulate and/or affect GL energy (and black holes do manipulate energy which is evidenced by gravitational lensing) in any way, then it's pretty ridiculous to say that Jason would turn Wog's shield into butter (or whatever) with a flick of the wrist.

Also, your argument seems to be double standard-ish. If FS could manipulate Wog's auto shield, then why couldn't he do that to Hal as well? Considering we're talking about the energy shields themselves... jason's powers don't work by breaking down molecules, then rebuilding them. instead, he changes them from one thing to another

that said, a black hole being unable to affect a lantern's shield simply means the shield in question can endure the highest levels of gravitational pull, without it's molecules being torn apart. however, that is not to say those same shield-molecules are in some way immune to a direct transmutational attack from jason.

and i never said transmutation wouldn't be an option for jason if he were to battle hal.

Originally posted by batdude123
Not really.

Him manipulating Kilowog's energy would consist of breaking it down and/or altering it to another substance. If a black hole can't manipulate and/or affect GL energy (and black holes do manipulate energy which is evidenced by gravitational lensing) in any way, then it's pretty ridiculous to say that Jason would turn Wog's shield into butter (or whatever) with a flick of the wrist.

Also, your argument seems to be double standard-ish. If FS could manipulate Wog's auto shield, then why couldn't he do that to Hal as well? Considering we're talking about the energy shields themselves...

It doesn't fit.
To be fair, Firestorm can do what a black hole cannot. a black hole is not focused energy. it's random destruction. Also, The rings are different on different users. So Hal and Wog wouldn't have the same type of shielding or concentration. Tho I think Wog would be harder to defeat than Hal. He's stronger.

Originally posted by Galan007
jason's powers don't work by breaking down molecules, then rebuilding them. instead, he changes them from one thing to another

that said, a black hole being unable to affect a lantern's shield simply means the shield in question can endure the highest levels of gravitational pull, without it's molecules being torn apart. however, that is not to say those same shield-molecules are in some way immune to a direct transmutational attack from jason.

and i never said transmutation wouldn't be an option for jason if he were to battle hal.

Transmuting a substance into another object would involve movement and/or some kind of alteration of molecules or atomic structure. He is a being of science, after all.

Simply saying that he "changes" x object to y object with nothing taking place in the process is ridiculous.

Being in a black hole without any kind of alteration has everything to do with what we're talking about. In any case, the shields themselves have no molecules, considering it's energy. If the energy can still hold strong around their bodies inside a singularity that manipulates all energy (EM radiation) like nothing, then it's a pretty good indication of FS not being able to do anything to it. After all, GL energy isn't simply any energy that's naturally found in the universe, but rather, manifestations of their will power.

And for the record, IIRC, Kyle created a construct that Firestorm was not able to manipulate a few years ago.

Yeah, I saw your edit. However, I asked you if you thought Firestorm could turn Hal into salt, and you said no.

I agree with Batdude here.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2788/93710283.th.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
In any case, the shields themselves have no molecules, considering it's energy.

If the energy can still hold strong around their bodies inside a singularity that manipulates all energy (EM radiation) like nothing, then it's a pretty good indication of FS not being able to do anything to it. After all, GL energy isn't simply any energy that's naturally found in the universe, but rather, manifestations of their will power.

And for the record, IIRC, Kyle created a construct that Firestorm was not able to manipulate a few years ago.

Yeah, I saw your edit. However, I asked you if you thought Firestorm could turn Hal into salt, and you said no. firestorm has transmuted the energy of several characters in the past.

you keep clinging to instances regarding black holes as though they in some way hint at GL immunity to transmutational attacks. they don't. we are talking about completely different 'applications' of power here - one essentially breaks down energy via gravity, the other changes energy from one thing to another *poof*. as far as i can tell, two different levels of resistence would be needed for each.

i don't recall the kyle incident at any rate, kyle > wog.

correct.

Originally posted by kgkg
I agree with Batdude here.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2788/93710283.th.jpg and that scan means what exactly?

Originally posted by Galan007
firestorm has transmuted the energy of several characters in the past.

you keep clinging to instances regarding black holes as though they in some way hint at GL immunity to transmutational attacks. they don't. we are talking about completely different 'applications' of power here - one essentially breaks down energy via gravity, the other changes energy from one thing to another *poof*. as far as i can tell, two different levels of resistence would be needed for each.

i don't recall the kyle incident at any rate, kyle > wog.

correct.

Except the ring acts as a pseudo-sentient mini guardian of sorts. It isn't considered the universe's most powerful weapon for no reason. The ring has tons of built-in protection features. Auto-shields, telepathy shielding, etc.

And like I said before, GL energy is different from others, because it's manifested will power.

Yes, the two differ in application, but you still aren't getting the point. Firestorm doesn't just *poof* objects into another substance. His whole shtick is that his powers are scientifically-based. He isn't magical.

And as for why being inside a black hole is significant, the explanation is already there. I don't feel like going in circles.

Your reason for why Firestorm would be able to "turn (Wog) into salt" in no way explains why he wouldn't be able to do the same to Hal.

Double standard.

Originally posted by batdude123
The ring has tons of built-in protection features. Auto-shields, telepathy shielding, etc.

And like I said before, GL energy is different from others, because it's manifested will power.

Yes, the two differ in application, but you still aren't getting the point. Firestorm doesn't just *poof* objects into another substance. His whole shtick is that his powers are scientifically-based. He isn't magical.

And as for why being inside a black hole is significant, the explanation is already there. I don't feel like going in circles.

Your reason for why Firestorm would be able to "turn (Wog) into salt" in no way explains why he wouldn't be able to do the same to Hal.

Double standard. manifested will power or not, it's still energy. unless i see a scan which states GLs have some type of immunity to transmutational attacks, i cannot buy into the notion that their energy type is any less transmutable than another type.

scientifically based in the sense that jason has to know the right 'mixtures' in order for something to turn out how he wants it to? sure. however, he's transformed energy in the midst of it being 'fired' in the past - hence my "*poof*" emotion.

my explanation is also there... i don't want to talk in circles either.

again, i stated that transmutation would still be an option in that battle, i just don't think it would be as likely/easily done. hal > wog. that isn't a double standard by any stretch.

Originally posted by Galan007
manifested will power or not, it's still energy. unless i see a scan which states GLs have some type of immunity to transmutational attacks, i cannot buy into the notion that their energy type is any less transmutable than another type.

scientifically based in the sense that jason has to know the right 'mixtures' in order for something to turn out how he wants it to? sure. however, he's transformed energy in the midst of it being 'fired' in the past - hence my "*poof*" emotion.

my explanation is also there... i don't want to talk in circles either.

again, i stated that transmutation would still be an option in that battle, i just don't think it would be as likely/easily done. hal > wog. that isn't a double standard by any stretch.

Just cuz I luvs ya so much, I've been doing some digging, and I was able to find this...

http://a.imagehost.org/0227/Green_Lantern_v3_Annual_8_pg23.jpg

Rookie Kyle's body was turned into an ape, yet the ring was able to transform his body back to normal.

Whether or not FS would be able to transmute Wog with his shield up is still debatable in my eyes, considering the ring's energies itself restored Kyle back to normal. However, this shows that the ring can compensate for transmutation.

Considering the ring's TONS of energy/matter manipulation feats out there, it's not exactly a stretch to say that the ring can counteract any efforts of Jason.

Originally posted by batdude123
Just cuz I luvs ya so much, I've been doing some digging, and I was able to find this...

http://a.imagehost.org/0227/Green_Lantern_v3_Annual_8_pg23.jpg

Rookie Kyle's body was turned into an ape, yet the ring was able to transform his body back to normal.

Whether or not FS would be able to transmute Wog with his shield up is still debatable in my eyes, considering the ring's energies itself restored Kyle back to normal. However, this shows that the ring can compensate for transmutation.

Considering the ring's TONS of energy/matter manipulation feats out there, it's not exactly a stretch to say that the ring can counteract any efforts of Jason.
I remember that story. It wasn't the ring. It was their self image that made them turn back or something like that.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
I remember that story. It wasn't the ring. It was their self image that made them turn back or something like that. J'onn blatantly states that it was the ring that took care of transforming Kyle back.

Originally posted by batdude123
J'onn blatantly states that it was the ring that took care of transforming Kyle back. Yes but he had to have a self image is what I"m saying. If he's turned into salt, he won't be able to think. The ring only took care of the rest after his self image was restored.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
Yes but he had to have a self image is what I"m saying. If he's turned into salt, he won't be able to think. The ring only took care of the rest after his self image was restored. I simply used it to show an example of the ring's bio manipulation. Seriously, the ring has so many different feats of matter and energy manipulation, it's ridulous. Kilowog once created a permanent atmosphere for a newly created planet that didn't have one. Hal has turned his body into a robot before. He's also turned missiles into snow. Kyle has given his own body superpowers. It's just as justified for Firestorm to manipulate a GL as vice versa. Would we seriously argue that Firestorm could transmute Thor or Surfer? Come on now. Couple all the GL manipulation feats with their auto shields, and there's now way Jason turns Wog into salt. Better yet... Wog turns Firestorm into salt. dur

Originally posted by batdude123
Better yet... Wog turns Firestorm into salt. dur

Firestorm's going to transform Kilowog's ring.

Then it's Surfer.

Next stop, Odin.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Firestorm's going to transform Kilowog's ring.

Then it's Surfer.

Next stop, Odin.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Firestorm's going to transform Kilowog's ring.

Then it's Surfer.

Next stop, Odin.

Galactus, soon after....

Originally posted by batdude123
I simply used it to show an example of the ring's bio manipulation. Seriously, the ring has so many different feats of matter and energy manipulation, it's ridulous. Kilowog once created a permanent atmosphere for a newly created planet that didn't have one. Hal has turned his body into a robot before. He's also turned missiles into snow. Kyle has given his own body superpowers. It's just as justified for Firestorm to manipulate a GL as vice versa. Would we seriously argue that Firestorm could transmute Thor or Surfer? Come on now. Couple all the GL manipulation feats with their auto shields, and there's now way Jason turns Wog into salt. Better yet... Wog turns Firestorm into salt. dur
Well reading the rules, characters act within standard performance. It is Firestorm's thing to transmute. Kinda Like Sersi. No one else does it as often as they do. Not even surfer. He blasts first. So yeah, Firestorm would indeed transmute first.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
Well reading the rules, characters act within standard performance. It is Firestorm's thing to transmute. Kinda Like Sersi. No one else does it as often as they do. Not even surfer. He blasts first. So yeah, Firestorm would indeed transmute first.

Him attempting it first doesnt mean it will work.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Him attempting it first doesnt mean it will work.

Exactly.

The idea of Jason turning one of the best/most experienced Green Lanterns into salt is laughable to me.

Originally posted by batdude123
Exactly.

The idea of Jason turning one of the best/most experienced Green Lanterns into salt is laughable to me.

Agreed.i remember him evolving organisms on Thangar in order to create a safe atmosphere for the planet. Someone that adept wont be getting turned to salt just like that.

Originally posted by Galan007
firestorm has transmuted the energy of several characters in the past.

you keep clinging to instances regarding black holes as though they in some way hint at GL immunity to transmutational attacks. they don't. we are talking about completely different 'applications' of power here - one essentially breaks down energy via gravity, the other changes energy from one thing to another *poof*. as far as i can tell, two different levels of resistence would be needed for each.

i don't recall the kyle incident at any rate, kyle > wog.

correct. True.

More true. And post-Crisis, GL's have not performed well against black holes.

I don't recall that instance either.

Frankly, a GL doesn't need to be able to turn an opponent into salt to prove superiority over Firestorm.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Frankly, a GL doesn't need to be able to turn an opponent into salt to prove superiority over Firestorm. this should end the debate on the gl/firestorm debate

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
True.

More true. And post-Crisis, GL's have not performed well against black holes.

I don't recall that instance either.

Frankly, a GL doesn't need to be able to turn an opponent into salt to prove superiority over Firestorm.
Not too many Gl's are Superior to Firestorm. If any.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
Well reading the rules, characters act within standard performance. It is Firestorm's thing to transmute. Kinda Like Sersi. No one else does it as often as they do. Not even surfer. He blasts first. So yeah, Firestorm would indeed transmute first.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Him attempting it first doesnt mean it will work.

Since people are claming that FS can transmutate a top GL, can you guys please provide a feat of someone successfully doing it?

Originally posted by Zeuodin
Not too many Gl's are Superior to Firestorm. If any.

Sure there are.

only highly experienced ones IMO

Originally posted by Galan007
and that scan means what exactly? I wasn't trying to prove anything in particular.

Team 1 wins.

Originally posted by batdude123
Exactly.

The idea of Jason turning one of the best/most experienced Green Lanterns into salt is laughable to me. yet, i've still seen nothing solid telling me otherwise.

fact: jason can transmute organic matter.
fact: jason can transmute energy.

thus unless kilowog has displayed resistance to the above, then there is no reason jason would be incapable of doing... what he does.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Firestorm's going to transform Kilowog's ring.

Then it's Surfer.

Next stop, Odin. because kilowog is on par with surfer/odin, right? srsly

unless you have something constructive to add to the debate, then why post?

Originally posted by Galan007
yet, i've still seen nothing solid telling me otherwise.

fact: jason can transmute organic matter.
fact: jason can transmute energy.

thus unless kilowog has displayed resistance to the above, then there is no reason jason would be incapable of doing... what he does.

Yet, I've seen absolutely nothing solid that tells me Firestorm could simply transmute one of the best Green Lanterns into 'salt.'

The auto-shields protect Lanterns from deadly force (except when Johns is writing), so it's not going to be that easy. Plus it's extremely hard to imagine Firestorm able to manipulate them when black holes can't.

Not to mention I've already given instances of a ring's matter/energy manipulation. Kilowog's manipulation to create a permanent atmosphere is extremely impressive. And the ring has allowed the user to completely change his molecular/biological make up and still function normally.

------------------

And I'm just curious where this silly argument ends.

Silver Surfer? I've never seen him resist transmutation on his own body. Why couldn't Firestorm transmute him into salt?

Thor? Sersi has already transmuted him into a frog. What's to stop Firestorm from doing the same?

Thanos? He's never demonstrated transmutation resistance to my knowledge before.

And I'm sorry, but simply saying Thanos>Kilowog doesn't answer the question. It's dodging.

Team 2.

Originally posted by batdude123
Yet, I've seen absolutely nothing solid that tells me Firestorm could simply transmute one of the best Green Lanterns into 'salt.'

The auto-shields protect Lanterns from deadly force (except when Johns is writing), so it's not going to be that easy. Plus it's extremely hard to imagine Firestorm able to manipulate them when black holes can't.

Not to mention I've already given instances of a ring's matter/energy manipulation. Kilowog's manipulation to create a permanent atmosphere is extremely impressive. And the ring has allowed the user to completely change his molecular/biological make up and still function normally.

------------------

And I'm just curious where this silly argument ends.

Silver Surfer? I've never seen him resist transmutation on his own body. Why couldn't Firestorm transmute him into salt?

Thor? Sersi has already transmuted him into a frog. What's to stop Firestorm from doing the same?

Thanos? He's never demonstrated transmutation resistance to my knowledge before.

And I'm sorry, but simply saying Thanos>Kilowog doesn't answer the question. It's dodging.
once again, being able to resist the forces of a black hole is much different than resisting a direct transmutational attack. if you still maintain resisting one of them means a character can resist the other, then there is NO point in a continued debate regarding that topic.

creating an atmosphere is impressive, though it doesn't mean anything in this thread. don't care what other GLs have done.

---

this part of your post is... pointless. the characters you mentioned are outside of firestorm's power tier. it would be ridiculous to assume a weaker character could deal out much *lasting* harm to a more powerful character. you seem to be taking my argument WAY out of context.

anywho, claiming jason could affect kilowog is simply NOT as bold of a claim as the 'examples' you mentioned

---

and for the record, jason has several other options to choose from that's just the one ability we seem to be latching on to.

Originally posted by Galan007
once again, being able to resist the forces of a black hole is much different than resisting a direct transmutational attack. if you still maintain resisting one of them means a character can resist the other, then there is NO point in a continued debate regarding that topic.

creating an atmosphere is impressive, though it doesn't mean anything in this thread. don't care what other GLs have done.
---
this part of your post is... pointless. the characters you mentioned are outside of firestorm's power tier. it would be ridiculous to assume a weaker character could deal out much *lasting* harm to a more powerful character. you seem to be taking my argument WAY outside of where it was intended to be.

anywho, claiming jason could affect kilowog certainly isn't on THAT level
---
and for the record, jason has several other options to choose from that's just the one ability we seem to be latching on to.

True.

I think it's relevant. It shows a level of transmutation/manipulation that's on a level quite beyond turning somebody into salt (your reason for why Firestorm couldn't do it to Surfer, Thor, etc). Plus I've shown that the ring can turn the user's body into whatever with a simple thought.

You're downplaying Wog. The difference between him and Sufer/Thor is not a large enough margin to think that while he wouldn't be able to jack to either of them, he could simply transmute Wog into salt like *poof*.

With that said, yeah, I'm done with the whole transmuting argument.

Originally posted by batdude123
With that said, yeah, I'm done with the whole transmuting argument. yeah, i certainly could argue the point more, but why? i have my opinion, and you have yours

Originally posted by Galan007
yeah, i certainly could argue the point more, but why? i have my opinion, and you have yours



uhuh

haw-som

ha-som

g_boner