Idea for solving illegal immigration

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Darth Jello
Illegal immigration is a problem because it reduces demand in the labor market and therefore drives down wages and employment and destroys the middle class. Arguably, a lot of conservatives punish people and not employers and support things like amnesty specifically to eliminate the middle class. It's controversial, there are a lot of different ideas and opinions, but here is my plan. Just wondering what you guys thought of it.


1. Fine companies $10,000,000 per illegal immigrant hired.
2. Use 10% of fines collected to set up civil service programs such as CCC, AmeriCorps, etc. that will keep people out of the labor market.
3. Offer caught illegal immigrants three choices: 1. deportation. 2. a stint the civil service. 3. a stint in military service.
4. They will be provided housing for civil service and the length of their term in either civil or military service will depend on the demand for labor at the moment of arrest. A person who serves a term of service as a civilian will earn legal residency and the right to work, (twice time + basic education and language) will earn citizenship. A tour of military duty + said education will earn citizenship.
5. No undocumented immigrant will be able to serve as a commissioned officer in the military or in intelligence or in special forces.
6. Institute social security taxes on 100% of the working population regardless of how much a person is paid.
7. Lower the retirement age back down to 55.

This way, people will be able to work and contribute, businesses will be punished for breaking the law, and those same workers will not negatively affect the labor demand and therefore wages, benefits, unions, and jobs since they will be kept out of the labor market while demand is low.

thoughts?

Robtard
Place a bunch of these along the border:

http://aliens.humlak.cz/aliens/aliens_papirove_modely/home/ankety/ed209.gif

"You have three seconds to comply."

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Robtard
Place a bunch of these along the border:

http://aliens.humlak.cz/aliens/aliens_papirove_modely/home/ankety/ed209.gif

"You have three seconds to comply."

That would be cool. I would pay money to watch. cool

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Illegal immigration is a problem because it reduces demand in the labor market and therefore drives down wages and employment and destroys the middle class. Arguably, a lot of conservatives punish people and not employers and support things like amnesty specifically to eliminate the middle class. It's controversial, there are a lot of different ideas and opinions, but here is my plan. Just wondering what you guys thought of it.


1. Fine companies $10,000,000 per illegal immigrant hired.

Sounds good. But it needs to be revenue based since 10,000,000 to a small business is waaaaaaaay too much and 10,000,000 to a mega-corp like Wal-Mart can be insured against, mitigated, and avoided through big-dollar projects to avoid multiple violations.


Originally posted by Darth Jello
2. Use 10% of fines collected to set up civil service programs such as CCC, AmeriCorps, etc. that will keep people out of the labor market.

Commission fails as soon as we have almost universal compliance, which would be inevitable. Then, the program has to be justified, kept in place, enforced, etc. with money that was not originally provisioned for.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
3. Offer caught illegal immigrants three choices: 1. deportation. 2. a stint the civil service. 3. a stint in military service.

All of that coupled with a program to get them naturalized with a more streamlined naturalization process.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
4. They will be provided housing for civil service and the length of their term in either civil or military service will depend on the demand for labor at the moment of arrest. A person who serves a term of service as a civilian will earn legal residency and the right to work, (twice time + basic education and language) will earn citizenship. A tour of military duty + said education will earn citizenship.

Lemme get this straight: I bust into your house, you catch me, and you provide me with room and board if I work for you? Sounds like blackmail. awehawe

Originally posted by Darth Jello
5. No undocumented immigrant will be able to serve as a commissioned officer in the military or in intelligence or in special forces.

Cool. I agree.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
6. Institute social security taxes on 100% of the working population regardless of how much a person is paid.

Kewl. BUT DATS SOCIALISM! scream

Originally posted by Darth Jello
7. Lower the retirement age back down to 55.

Elminate the retirement age, altogether, elminate SS, and put SS programs in the hands of the private sector with regulatory oversight from the government. Retirement age would then be set by the individual and their retirement plan.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
This way, people will be able to work and contribute, businesses will be punished for breaking the law, and those same workers will not negatively affect the labor demand and therefore wages, benefits, unions, and jobs since they will be kept out of the labor market while demand is low.

thoughts?




I agree, somewhat.


I want to put SS into the hands of the private sector. Sure, risk would increase, but it could be minimized with proper regulation and oversight, which is what I think government should really do..not this "run everything and have a program for everything."

But, altogether, we should decrease the naturalization time, stream-line some of the processes, and, as you said, probably make the current illegals, legal. We also need to create fines, like you said.

Bardock42
1, 2 and 7 sound a bit stupid.

AngryManatee
Originally posted by Robtard
Place a bunch of these along the border:

http://aliens.humlak.cz/aliens/aliens_papirove_modely/home/ankety/ed209.gif

"You have three seconds to comply."

Or the sentry guns from Aliens big grin

http://www.planetavp.com/al/Aliens/DeletedScenes/a2out16p3.jpg

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Robtard
Place a bunch of these along the border:

http://aliens.humlak.cz/aliens/aliens_papirove_modely/home/ankety/ed209.gif

"You have three seconds to comply."

they be strip by nightfall.. cool

dadudemon
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
they be strip by nightfall.. cool

lulz


shifty

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Darth Jello

3. Offer caught illegal immigrants three choices: 1. deportation. 2. a stint the civil service. 3. a stint in military service.

thoughts?

Oh right, because this would certainly not be at all open to exploitation and slave labour.

Why even wait for illegal immigrants? Just go find some dirt poor people in some god forsaken country, promise them the citizenship and give them a gun.

If I was anybody in Al-Quaida, I'd instantly forget suicide bombing recruitment. Instead send few hundred thousand illegal immigrants to America and wait for you to give them all guns.

In fact, just selectivelly wait for illegal immigrants from Uganda and Rawanda! They're already trained to murder since they were 5.
With this kind of policy America could keep at least another 10 fronts, including North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, Russia maybe even China and Saudi Arabia.

American politicians must be dumb not have not thought of this.

Wild Shadow
just give us back our country and continent and stop referring to us as illegals shifty we prefer to be called actual native continental americans

WickedDynamite
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Illegal immigration is a problem because it reduces demand in the labor market and therefore drives down wages and employment and destroys the middle class. Arguably, a lot of conservatives punish people and not employers and support things like amnesty specifically to eliminate the middle class. It's controversial, there are a lot of different ideas and opinions, but here is my plan. Just wondering what you guys thought of it.


1. Fine companies $10,000,000 per illegal immigrant hired.
2. Use 10% of fines collected to set up civil service programs such as CCC, AmeriCorps, etc. that will keep people out of the labor market.
3. Offer caught illegal immigrants three choices: 1. deportation. 2. a stint the civil service. 3. a stint in military service.
4. They will be provided housing for civil service and the length of their term in either civil or military service will depend on the demand for labor at the moment of arrest. A person who serves a term of service as a civilian will earn legal residency and the right to work, (twice time + basic education and language) will earn citizenship. A tour of military duty + said education will earn citizenship.
5. No undocumented immigrant will be able to serve as a commissioned officer in the military or in intelligence or in special forces.
6. Institute social security taxes on 100% of the working population regardless of how much a person is paid.
7. Lower the retirement age back down to 55.

This way, people will be able to work and contribute, businesses will be punished for breaking the law, and those same workers will not negatively affect the labor demand and therefore wages, benefits, unions, and jobs since they will be kept out of the labor market while demand is low.

thoughts?

Easy....Illegal Imigrant TAX Law.

If your production involved illegal imigrants and you were caught you will be tax for using illegals.

Fines just hampers the business....and puts them on the opposite side of the law. Tax them...not fine them.

Digi
omg, armchair politics on teh internetz. A few of those seem illegally authoritarian, and not plausible in any sense. #1 alone would cause open revolt.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Digi
omg, armchair politics on teh internetz. A few of those seem illegally authoritarian, and not plausible in any sense. #1 alone would cause open revolt.

#1 sounds like a deliberate exaggeration, even for him.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Digi
omg, armchair politics on teh internetz. A few of those seem illegally authoritarian, and not plausible in any sense. #1 alone would cause open revolt.
#1 was the best suggestion of the bunch. Not the particular fine but the concept.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Digi
omg, armchair politics on teh internetz.

1. Desk chair. awesome
2. That's what happens in the GDF....a lot. no expression

BackFire
Make other countries better imo.

Darth Jello
It's not slave labor if your paying people, people in both civillian and military service get paid and pay taxes.

I have no ****ing problem punishing businesses for breaking the law and punishing them so they feel it. Believe me, if Wal-Mart was fined $10 million per illegal immigrant, they would be out several billion very quickly.
This way you're not detaining immigrants indefinitely, your creating a path to citizenship, you're not hurting the labor market, and you're punishing the system that creates and reinforces illegal immigration.

Also, why shouldn't rich people have to pay social security taxes?

ChakraStrings
I think it's funny how pro-Anti Illegal Immigration yanks are, you're a country OF illegal immigrants. Hahaha.

Also, I heard a few stories from your border patrolmen, pretty corrupt, they take money and some other less appropriate 'favours' to allow them into the country.

Nemesis X
Here's an easy simpler way to solve the immigration problem: get better security at the borders. Seriously, all those guards must be like Homer Simpson, sleeping on the job and surprisingly not fired yet.

dadudemon
Originally posted by ChakraStrings
I think it's funny how pro-Anti Illegal Immigration yanks are, you're a country OF illegal immigrants. Hahaha.

Most of our ancestors were imigrants, yes, but not illegal.


Originally posted by ChakraStrings
Also, I heard a few stories from your border patrolmen, pretty corrupt, they take money and some other less appropriate 'favours' to allow them into the country.

Yeah, that's almost as bad as politicians (who are rich, no less) using tax payer dollars to buy personal items:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124273087403034141.html

You'll be hard pressed to find a border patrolman with more than one home, much less a 13th century manor that has a moat that needed cleaning. no expression

Darth Jello
Why not punish employers and businesses? Their breaking the law hurts everyone worse than somebody crossing the border in and of itself.

ChakraStrings
I vote that the Native Americans rise up and kick the shit out of you.

Wild Shadow
we'll just out breed(eoropean descendance) them and consume their society and re envelope them into our original culture

Darth Jello
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh right, because this would certainly not be at all open to exploitation and slave labour.

Why even wait for illegal immigrants? Just go find some dirt poor people in some god forsaken country, promise them the citizenship and give them a gun.

If I was anybody in Al-Quaida, I'd instantly forget suicide bombing recruitment. Instead send few hundred thousand illegal immigrants to America and wait for you to give them all guns.

In fact, just selectivelly wait for illegal immigrants from Uganda and Rawanda! They're already trained to murder since they were 5.
With this kind of policy America could keep at least another 10 fronts, including North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, Russia maybe even China and Saudi Arabia.

American politicians must be dumb not have not thought of this.


civil service doesn't involve weapons. It involves feeding the poor, fixing roads, killing invasive species, building roads and dams, disaster relief, and taking care of the elderly. Just thought you should know before you start focusing on the military option.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by dadudemon
Most of our ancestors were imigrants, yes, but not illegal.


You're joking right?

Because they came to Natives with passports and proper documentation ASKING them for permission to live there.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Nemesis X
Here's an easy simpler way to solve the immigration problem: get better security at the borders. Seriously, all those guards must be like Homer Simpson, sleeping on the job and surprisingly not fired yet.

Not to be mean, but....you're very clueless.


Watch this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1451035544403625746



Also, just google "border patrol problems" and read aabout why patroling 19,000 miles is diffcult on an annual budget of $3.5 Billion. It's not just about patrolling, either.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2007_news_releases/022007/02062007_4.xml

dadudemon
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You're joking right?

Because they came to Natives with passports and proper documentation ASKING them for permission to live there.

Show me the Native American secular laws and constitutions. Sure, they infringed on land, raped murdered and pillaged, etc. But the term being used isn't "immoral", it is "illegal."

To classify their immigration as illegal is.......odd?

Darth Jello
My scheme would also involve housing, a wage, and benefits. Planting trees, weatherizing homes and keeping terminal cancer patients company aren't really bad jobs.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
...and keeping terminal cancer patients company...


One word: poop






Think about it.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Darth Jello
civil service doesn't involve weapons. It involves feeding the poor, fixing roads, killing invasive species, building roads and dams, disaster relief, and taking care of the elderly. Just thought you should know before you start focusing on the military option.

Oh right, this is even better.

So there are few options here -

-Slave labour and exploitation of those who are fearing persecution poverty and death

or

-Pay them to work, but then b!tch about how they're taking jobs from Americans who would be fixing roads, building roads and other infrastructure...etc which was the reason you made this thread to begin with. Because illegal immigrants are PAID to do something.

or

-Send them to die in exchange for permission to live in the country.


Great. You should start advertising in South Asia, South America and Africa.

Darth Jello
won't take jobs if its ill maintained federal lands or if their handling problems that the private sector doesn't have the resources to handle. I still don't see where slavery comes in if your paying people, housing them, educating them, and allowing their kids to live just like any other normal kid. Can you imagine the kind of resources that would be needed if the US decided to do fire mitigation its forests and get rid of all the fuel piled up by foolish, unnatural firefighting? How many people you'd need to kill every Russian Olive tree that's ruining the forests or kill every carp that's ruining the rivers? You're not taking away jobs, you're protecting jobs while giving everyone a nicer and safer way to go outside.

Robtard
Not sure why people are crying over the idea of offering criminals the option of military service in exchange for their debt to society. Very odd.

Pretty sure other countries have used this option.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Send them to die in exchange for permission to live in the country.


whats wrong with this? id feel more comfortable in iraq knowing that al-quidea has to go through twenty Mexicans to get to me. no expression have you heard of human meat shields? played gears of war 2?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You're joking right?

Because they came to Natives with passports and proper documentation ASKING them for permission to live there.

The natives didn't have a unified government.

Robtard
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The natives didn't have a unified government.

"I'm the first to admit we took this country from the Indians, but what were they doing with it anyway; shooting off bows and arrows and using seashells for money." - Norman Arbuthnot

Gets me every time.

Darth Jello
When did the Native American Nations come into this?

Robtard
Originally posted by dadudemon
Show me the Native American secular laws and constitutions. Sure, they infringed on land, raped murdered and pillaged, etc. But the term being used isn't "immoral", it is "illegal."

To classify their immigration as illegal is.......odd?

Raping, pillaging and claiming lands via warfare was used by the Native American Indians themselves. White people just did it better and far more efficiently.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Robtard
"I'm the first to admit we took this country from the Indians, but what were they doing with it anyway; shooting off bows and arrows and using seashells for money." - Norman Arbuthnot

Gets me every time.

Ha, that'll show them to be inferior!

But seriously, for the most part the natives didn't even claim to own the land and no laws governed it (except "Natural Law"wink so it couldn't be taken illegally.

Robtard
Originally posted by Darth Jello
When did the Native American Nations come into this?

Bringing up Native Americans is a common ploy for the anti-American crowd when trying to make a point about illegals in America. Like all other countries except America have open borders and openly accept anyone.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Ha, that'll show them to be inferior!

But seriously, for the most part the natives didn't even claim to own the land and no laws governed it (except "Natural Law"wink so it couldn't be taken illegally.

Bingo. thumb up

WickedDynamite
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Why not punish employers and businesses?

Because you hurt the business that does business with that business.

In other words none of your business. (not trying to be mean I just couldn't resist)

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
whats wrong with this? id feel more comfortable in iraq knowing that al-quidea has to go through twenty Mexicans to get to me. no expression have you heard of human meat shields? played gears of war 2?

Except, it will be Al-Qaida who will be sending immigrants to America, and not Mexicans.

Besides, if I was an illegal, in Iraq I have pledged no alligance to your country - I'd be more than happy to sell information about American military strategy or locations to Iraqis. Since they're kind of dirt poor, Iranians, Chinese, Russians, North Koreans and Wahhabis would pay my illegal Mexican ass a lot of money for some Amero killings.

In fact, I'd make it a business - sending illegals to American border, then getting them transferred to Iraq or Afghanistan, then getting money for the info on getting Ameros killed in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Seriously, that business would bring more money than any drug pushing ever could.

Oh and let me guess, you'd get rid of all Americans in your army and have band illegals who were not skilled enough to jump a fence fight your war.

This should be a comicbook. Someone draw one.

inimalist
to be fair, the Wahabbis can get in through special business visas which allow buisnessmen from Saudi Arabia to get into America without the normal checks and so forth.

iirc (and I can't be bothered to wiki it) this is how most of the 9/11 hijackers got into the states.

I'd agree though, there are some fairly obvious problems with putting the defense of one's nation in the hands of foreign nationals and criminals (though, the army has lowered it requirements to the point where convicted rapists can join).

Wild Shadow
probably explains all the sexual assaults harassment in the military.

inimalist
I'd place that more on it being full of misogynist type A personalities...

Wild Shadow
i blame it on whiny lil b@%#'s.. cool oo boo hoo u want ur mommy?! you cant take a compliment?! what r u doing in my military then marine/soldier/recruit(female)?! get down and give me push ups!

tank
u aware u should be proud ur even in now? they plan on removing ur kind in the nxt 5 yrs.... and focusing on pure combat MOS!? get out of my face girlie!! go talk to ur Chaplin and equal opportunity rep!! move it move it!
usaflag

cant take a compliment, hate to scream at them but luv watching them leave.. bumpity bump...hmmm...

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
(though, the army has lowered it requirements to the point where convicted rapists can join).

Just the opposite, actually. Since 9/11, they've made things much more strict.

For instance, a close friend of mine wasn't allowed to join the marines because he stole a drink from Wal-mart and got criminally charged for it. It was a $1.20 drink that he picked up on his break, while working at Wal-mart, that he always paid for after his break. It was a routine, but someone (new assistant manager) didn't like that and he has a "criminal" record, now.

Something that simple can prevent you from joining.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by dadudemon
Just the opposite, actually. Since 9/11, they've made things much more strict.

For instance, a close friend of mine wasn't allowed to join the marines because he stole a drink from Wal-mart and got criminally charged for it. It was a $1.20 drink that he picked up on his break, while working at Wal-mart, that he always paid for after his break. It was a routine, but someone (new assistant manager) didn't like that and he has a "criminal" record, now.

Something that simple can prevent you from joining.

Overzealous managers are retarded.

inimalist
Originally posted by dadudemon
Just the opposite, actually. Since 9/11, they've made things much more strict.

For instance, a close friend of mine wasn't allowed to join the marines because he stole a drink from Wal-mart and got criminally charged for it. It was a $1.20 drink that he picked up on his break, while working at Wal-mart, that he always paid for after his break. It was a routine, but someone (new assistant manager) didn't like that and he has a "criminal" record, now.

Something that simple can prevent you from joining.

actually, since the war in Iraq broke the military and the institution of the "back door draft" the regulations have been coming down.

get on me if you want sources tomorrow, I'm sleepy atm, but ya, it is only certain crimes that have been exempted, one being rape, another being armed robbery iirc.

but hey, at least they aren't gay

lil bitchiness
Wait, are you saying convicted rapists CAN join the army, or not?

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Wait, are you saying convicted rapists CAN join the army, or not?

sorry, those convicted of sexual assault, not necessarily rape

anyways, looked it up

stats from 2003-2006:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/14/us/14military.html

2006-2007:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24243460/

EDIT: the MSNBC article calls them "sex crimes", from page 2 of the article "(which can include rape, incest or sexual assaults)"

EDIT 2: apparently domestic terrorism doesn't prevent one either, "Two received waivers for terrorist threats including bomb threats in 2007, compared to one in 2006." for the army and "and five for terror threats, including bomb threats, compared to two in 2006." for the marines

The Dark Cloud
Originally posted by Robtard
Place a bunch of these along the border:

http://aliens.humlak.cz/aliens/aliens_papirove_modely/home/ankety/ed209.gif

"You have three seconds to comply."

I like this idea best. (Hey, it was good for a laugh)

Darth Jello
I really should work on less contraversial, more benign threads. Otherwise I feel like every attempt at rational debate turns into a Frankenstein's Monster within 4 hours and degenerates into off topic debates. I was kind of under the assumption that a minority of immigrants would choose the military option and there would be screenings.

Hell, I'm for the old system where they wouldn't let anyone guilty of any crimes of moral turpitude (with the exception of adultery and sodomy in today's world of course) into the military and no one with any affiliation or association with political extremists, specifically communists, fascists, racists/supremacists etc. Used to be they'd boot you out during the physical if they found a swastika tattoo on you. Of course, if they reenacted and enforced this kind of stuff they'd have to kick out a fourth of the chaplains and half the air force.

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
I really should work on less contraversial, more benign threads. Otherwise I feel like every attempt at rational debate turns into a Frankenstein's Monster within 4 hours and degenerates into off topic debates. I was kind of under the assumption that a minority of immigrants would choose the military option and there would be screenings.

Hell, I'm for the old system where they wouldn't let anyone guilty of any crimes of moral turpitude (with the exception of adultery and sodomy in today's world of course) into the military and no one with any affiliation or association with political extremists, specifically communists, fascists, racists/supremacists etc. Used to be they'd boot you out during the physical if they found a swastika tattoo on you. Of course, if they reenacted and enforced this kind of stuff they'd have to kick out a fourth of the chaplains and half the air force.

I think any kind of enforcement of the idea of immigrants being forced to serve time in the military could be ruthlessly exploited. You only have to look at the events of the last few days in Afghanistan to see what could happen. A terrorist infilitrated the national police and during his training with live ammunition, turned around and machine gunned five British soldiers to death.

It would obviously be far more difficult to do on US soil but it could be done and would be devestating perhaps not so much in loss of life but in morale and the public's perception of military security.

Darth Jello
They're given choices. Again, civil service is not the military. It pays slightly less and you don't get VA benefits and under my plan you'd only get legal residency, not citizenship unless you served two terms but you are risking less personally and living a relatively normal and quiet life doing so, not the irregular mess that is military service. You're sacrificing less therefore your reward is less.
I think every American should be given the option of military or civil service upon completion of high school with the reward being free education and the choice of civil, military, or peace corps service in exchange for free post-grad education after college. The establishment would never do this because it would mean raising taxes, canceling stupid programs, and having more liberals and anti-corporatists as a result of having more educated people and more people in the middle class who actually have the time and resources to think and work things out for themselves and participate in government and causes which politicians hate.

inimalist
Originally posted by jaden101
I think any kind of enforcement of the idea of immigrants being forced to serve time in the military could be ruthlessly exploited. You only have to look at the events of the last few days in Afghanistan to see what could happen. A terrorist infilitrated the national police and during his training with live ammunition, turned around and machine gunned five British soldiers to death.

It would obviously be far more difficult to do on US soil but it could be done and would be devestating perhaps not so much in loss of life but in morale and the public's perception of military security.

very conservative source, but discussing Andres Raya, a former marine who opened fire on police in Ceres, California. Some gang relations, sort of like what you are talking about with people infiltrating the military and using that to cause domestic issues (though, it was really hard to find just a news story of this issue, as the left want to martyr Raya as an anti-war suicide, and the right want to demonize him as a gang banger latino):

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin011905.php3

just how easy it is for illegal aliens to enter the American military:

http://michellemalkin.com/2004/10/17/illegal-aliens-in-the-military-2/

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
They're given choices.

Which is what would be exploited. Potential terrorists would enter the country as illegal immigrants...Get caught deliberately so they could choose military service and then use that access to weapons and training to kill US troops inside US bases on US soil. Which would be a massive psychological victory for terrorists.

Darth Jello
Potential terrorists enter the military all the time right now. The kind that are statistically more dangerous than al qaida. The SPLC has been tracking them and as stated above, many in the military, especially in the air force and chaplains aid and abet domestic terrorists right now. That's not a problem with the plan. That's a problem with the military not screening people properly and loosening their enlistment requirements.

jaden101
Why have a plan that could potentially increase the problem? Not to mention that this is the kind of infiltration that isn't theoretical. It is happening more and more in Afghanistan where the Taliban are infiltrating the Afghan military and police and using their position to kill allied soldiers and civilians. If memory serves me correctly, it was also used in Iraq on occassion too.
Having a system that allows this to happen in the US is dangerous. Terrorist organisations have the capability to fake papers to show false country of origin of immigrants to make them look less of a threat.

I presume your idea is aimed more at limiting the number of illegal immigrants from Mexico. I believe it was PVS who gave a simple solution. Force employers to pay illegal immigrants the same rate of pay as legally employed staff. This would eliminate their incentive to employ illegal immigrants in the 1st place. The work for illegal immigrants would dry up and so the motivation for them coming into the country in the 1st place would disappear. Employment rates would improve and more tax would be getting generated.

Less paper work and red tape. Less need for detailed security checks that would be nigh on impossible to get accurate. Less beauracracy would mean less cost.

Darth Jello
I don't care about immigration per se. I care about decreasing demand in the labor market, that's the main goal. I don't care how many immigrants come here as long as they're not criminals/terrorists, and as long as we have demand for them in the labor market. Punishing businesses that break the law and keeping people out of the labor market until there is room for them seems like a much better solution than the status quo or being a dick and deporting people by force or detaining them at immigration centers which are rife with violence and sexual abuse. Plus, this will take legitimacy away from dicks like the minuteman project.

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
I don't care about immigration per se. I care about decreasing demand in the labor market, that's the main goal. I don't care how many immigrants come here as long as they're not criminals/terrorists, and as long as we have demand for them in the labor market. Punishing businesses that break the law and keeping people out of the labor market until there is room for them seems like a much better solution than the status quo or being a dick and deporting people by force or detaining them at immigration centers which are rife with violence and sexual abuse. Plus, this will take legitimacy away from dicks like the minuteman project.

I agree. Deportation is pointless because, a lot of the time, it's illegal because you're not allowed to deport asylum seekers or illegal immigrants to countries where they are at risk of torture or being made a political prisoner. Detaining them in facilities during protracted legal action is just a waste of money and having them working in the black market means they contribute nothing to the economy and are themselves, exploited and have a poor standard of living.

On the other hand, some people need to be detained and deported. Some need to be detained until background checks are done. Here in the UK there was a massive media highlighting on the problem of illegal immigrants and asylum seekers who have been let into the country despite committing horrific crimes in their home countries (rapists, paedophiles and murderers) and due to inadequate background checks, have been allowed to commit these crimes here too. What's worse is that when some of these people were released from jail, they weren't deported and due to their illegal status were able to disappear into the community again.

There is a balance to be had and systems all over the world which have to deal with large numbers of illegal immigrants or asylum seekers tend to be not fit for purpose.

Darth Jello
People often forget that compared to Europe, the US is not as nearly as strict on immigration as they are nor on citizenship and national and ethnic identity as a matter of public policy.

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
People often forget that compared to Europe, the US is not as nearly as strict on immigration as they are nor on citizenship and national and ethnic identity as a matter of public policy.

The problem in Europe is that immigration policies tend to be made by sovereign nations but if this conflicts with EU and international laws such as hurman rights laws then they are circumvented. Hence what I said about some asylum seekers and illegal immigrants being able to stay in the countries they have migrated to despite them contributing nothing to those societies because to be returned to their country of origin would break human rights laws.

Darth Jello
The guest worker program seems very exploitative to me. Hence why Europe has had so much race and ethnic rioting over the last decade plus it still exacerbates problems with the labor market and all the social ills associated with unemployment and a worker caste in society.

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
The guest worker program seems very exploitative to me. Hence why Europe has had so much race and ethnic rioting over the last decade plus it still exacerbates problems with the labor market and all the social ills associated with unemployment and a worker caste in society.

I think those issues are isolated to certain countries. France (Paris in particular) has massive issues. Greece's issues were over something completely different. I'm unsure about issues in recent additions to the EU as I haven't really been looking into it so I couldn't tell you about them.

Germany has always had immigration issues because they are a hardline country compared with most other EU countries in terms of immigration.

Darth Jello
It's what caused the emergence of skinhead culture (along with Ska music). Well Skinheads before they were Nazi. Back when they only hated Pakistanis.

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
It's what caused the emergence of skinhead culture (along with Ska music). Well Skinheads before they were Nazi. Back when they only hated Pakistanis.

Race nor politics were an instigator of skinhead culture. Early to mid 60's was the origins of it and it was all about music and clothing. It was the late 60's when violence against Asian immigrants began. It was also confined to small areas of England. In Scotland and Nothern England, skinheads were vehemently anti-racist for the majority.

Although the connotation of "skinhead" now brings negative images of the time, it was only a tiny minority of the movement that was the problem.

I suppose the same can be said about all aspects of riots that have been immigration related though.

Darth Jello
I know the difference between a baldy, bonehead, and SHARP

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
I know the difference between a baldy, bonehead, and SHARP

Taken out of context. Probably the oddest sentence ever written on KMC.

laughing

WickedDynamite
I don't buy into the whole concept of music and clothing launches certain groups. Reminds me of the Zoot suit gang members here in So Cal claiming they began as normal kids having fun but were discriminated for their culture....yeah right, you were discriminated for committing crimes that's why you thugs.

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
actually, since the war in Iraq broke the military and the institution of the "back door draft" the regulations have been coming down.

get on me if you want sources tomorrow, I'm sleepy atm, but ya, it is only certain crimes that have been exempted, one being rape, another being armed robbery iirc.

but hey, at least they aren't gay


Then it could be a local problem rather than a national.

However, the "army recruiter"* said he was having so many applicants that they are getting pickier and not taking any with criminal records or any without a highschool diploma. GED doesn't cut it.


*Yes, this friend of mine tried the Army, next. He got charged with Petty Theft or something like that, which prevented him from joining either the Marines or the Army. That, and the lack of highschool diploma.



Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Overzealous managers are retarded.

Yeah. I'm sure you covered scenarios like that in your criminal justice at one point for your masters degree. Some things are just a waste on the system.

jaden101
Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I don't buy into the whole concept of music and clothing launches certain groups. Reminds me of the Zoot suit gang members here in So Cal claiming they began as normal kids having fun but were discriminated for their culture....yeah right, you were discriminated for committing crimes that's why you thugs.

Doesn't really matter what you buy into. It's historical fact that skinhead culture of music and appearance pre-dates "skinhead" as a vessel for facism and racism. I believe it wasn't until the skinhead "revival" of the late 70's that the racist element hit the US...Some 15 years after the non political and non racial movement began in the UK. Skinheads were simply no different from punks, goths, emos etc. They were simply another music and image led group. To paint the origins of the movement as being initially a reaction to immigration is incorrect. At least here in the UK.

Obviously the US never had the skinhead culture without the racism and so the US perception of "skinhead" is different.

Groups such as SHARP are a reaction to the latter. They simply wouldn't have been needed in the early 60's in the UK because there was no racial prejudice in the skinhead movement.

Darth Jello
We do, it's just not given as much exposure as the bonehead mother****ers.

WickedDynamite
Originally posted by jaden101
Doesn't really matter what you buy into. It's historical fact that skinhead culture of music and appearance pre-dates "skinhead" as a vessel for facism and racism. I believe it wasn't until the skinhead "revival" of the late 70's that the racist element hit the US...Some 15 years after the non political and non racial movement began in the UK. Skinheads were simply no different from punks, goths, emos etc. They were simply another music and image led group. To paint the origins of the movement as being initially a reaction to immigration is incorrect. At least here in the UK.

Obviously the US never had the skinhead culture without the racism and so the US perception of "skinhead" is different.

Groups such as SHARP are a reaction to the latter. They simply wouldn't have been needed in the early 60's in the UK because there was no racial prejudice in the skinhead movement.

Oh, it does matter to me...trust me. However, I will not argue the historical facts of skinheads in the UK...it isn't my field, and is something alien to me. So I will take your word for it. I will say this, the history of the skinheads in the UK and America (or any other Western nation) must quite different in origins but most likely the same goal...to be bloody rebelious agaisnt society.

jaden101
Well after today's events I think we can safely say that the impact the events I described earlier in this thread were under-estimated.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6512329/Fort-Hood-shooting-13-killed-and-30-injured-at-US-Army-base.html

Shocking and terrible thing.

Darth Jello
Yeah, a guy from the United States shoots his comrades in the military. That really applies.

WickedDynamite
It can happen at any time. We're always at risk...

Darth Jello
We're always at risk of everything! You could cough while sitting wrong and develop testicular torsion like, any second!

The Nuul
Just dont let any of them into US or Canada period....

Darth Jello
Not realistic. Even if you stop all immigration and build walls with gun batteries and mine the ports, a few will find a way through and eventually we'll have a labor shortage and require immigrants. Oh, and define "them".

jaden101
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Yeah, a guy from the United States shoots his comrades in the military. That really applies.

Obviously the point I was making went over your head...Again...Happening a lot lately isn't it?

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