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This is Byakuya as of the Soul Society Arc. He starts off in Shikai.

I think I might actually give this to Grimmjow, even with one arm.

Byakuya, pretty simply.

I would actually vouch for Byakuya against Full powered, even released Grimmjow.

Now that's just crazy.
Banaki ichigo was at least on the same level as Byakuya while Grimmjow laughed off his (Ichigo's) strongest attack and was catching his Zangetsu with hsi bare hands. All while unrleeased.

Byakuya would have no chance against Grimm at full (unreleased) power.

Originally posted by Luminatus
Now that's just crazy.
Banaki ichigo was at least on the same level as Byakuya while Grimmjow laughed off his (Ichigo's) strongest attack and was catching his Zangetsu with hsi bare hands. All while unrleeased.

Byakuya would have no chance against Grimm at full (unreleased) power.

I disagree.

Only Ichigo after just using his Bankai could really beat Byakuya. During and afterwhich there's good evidence he lost all the speed he used that he needs to defeat Byakuya. Grimmjow isn't fast enough to Elude Byakuya's bankai.


That and Ichigo struggled epically to beat grimmjow. Byakuya used Bankai and owned Zommori like a b*tch

Wasn't Zommori a weaker Esapda anyhow?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I disagree.

Only Ichigo after just using his Bankai could really beat Byakuya.

he actually could of killed him several times throughout their fight but prolonged it because hes a good guy from what i remember. yeah

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/02/

because ichigos a good guy he generally doesnt go around shoving his sword through peoples throats but... if he wanted to kill byakuya in that moment he could have absolutely done so with paramount ease and byakuya wouldnt have been able to do anything about it...

id say that a lot of ichigos struggle in that fight especially is that he wasnt fighting to kill while byakuya was trying to kill him the entire time.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Wasn't Zommori a weaker Esapda anyhow?

Okay, let me say it like this.

Pre-bankai Ichigo beat Kenpachi. Who beat Nnoitra, espada 5
Vizard ichigo beat Grimmjow, espada 6
Peak Bankai Ichigo beat Byakuya, who beat Zommori espada 7


Are you seeing it from my PoV yet?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
he actually could of killed him several times throughout their fight but prolonged it because hes a good guy from what i remember. yeah

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/02/

because ichigos a good guy he generally doesnt go around shoving his sword through peoples throats but... if he wanted to kill byakuya in that moment he could have absolutely done so with paramount ease and byakuya wouldnt have been able to do anything about it...

id say that a lot of ichigos struggle in that fight especially is that he wasnt fighting to kill while byakuya was trying to kill him the entire time.

You're right, but it's irrelevent. Because during the course of that fight Ichigo lost said speed.

its not irrelevant because the fight would have never gotten to the point where ichigo started to slow down if he hadnt been holding back the entire time you realize that the scene i posted happened only seconds after he activated his bankai?

my point is that if ichigo had wanted to kill byakuya from the start he could have done so easily because hes that much stronger than byakuya is at that point. the only reason why he didnt is due to his personality which is CIS and isnt used in forum discussions...

a metaphor for that would be an out of shape father play fighting his 6 year old son and the father gets tired 10 minutes in and has to stop... would you say that the 6 year old > the father because the father didnt break the kids neck 20 seconds in?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
its not irrelevant because the fight would have never gotten to the point where ichigo started to slow down if he hadnt been holding back the entire time you realize that the scene i posted happened only seconds after he activated his bankai?

my point is that if ichigo had wanted to kill byakuya from the start he could have done so easily because hes that much stronger than byakuya is at that point. the only reason why he didnt is due to his personality which is CIS and isnt used in forum discussions...

a metaphor for that would be an out of shape father play fighting his 6 year old son and the father gets tired 10 minutes in and has to stop... would you say that the 6 year old > the father because the father didnt break the kids neck 20 seconds in?

Oh, then yeah, agreed.

I was referring to it being irrelevent because by the time Grimmjow was kicking Ichigo's ass he was already slower.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
its not irrelevant because the fight would have never gotten to the point where ichigo started to slow down if he hadnt been holding back the entire time you realize that the scene i posted happened only seconds after he activated his bankai?

my point is that if ichigo had wanted to kill byakuya from the start he could have done so easily because hes that much stronger than byakuya is at that point. the only reason why he didnt is due to his personality which is CIS and isnt used in forum discussions...

a metaphor for that would be an out of shape father play fighting his 6 year old son and the father gets tired 10 minutes in and has to stop... would you say that the 6 year old > the father because the father didnt break the kids neck 20 seconds in?

If it's within his personality, it's acceptable . If it were an example of PIS, then it wouldn't be counted, but since he was held back by his personality (according to you), it's acceptable. In forum fights, we include their personality.

I mean, we wouldn't think of Hollow Ichigo doing things slowly or acting like a non-berserker in fights, would we?

Similarly, Uryuu would fight to incapacitate as opposed to killing them.

- Not to be a d***, but if it were play-fighting, the dad wouldn't break the kid's neck at all , & the kid still wins if the dad stops. Though you're right, the kid wouldn't necessarily be better than the dad, even if he wins.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
You're right, but it's irrelevent. Because during the course of that fight Ichigo lost said speed. Him losing his speed was not permanent, his inexperience with Bankai did that, his condensed spiritual pressure caused his bones to crack, lessening his strength and speed over time. It was not a permanent downgrade, if it was, then Ichigo would be a cripple. The drawback has never been mentioned again, as should be noted.

~ I'd say Grimmjow could win. Grimmjow probably has the speed to elude SS Byakuya's Bankai while released. He was as fast as Vizard Ichigo iirc, who is at least as fast as Bankai Ichigo.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Him losing his speed was not permanent, his inexperience with Bankai did that, his condensed spiritual pressure caused his bones to crack, lessening his strength and speed over time. It was not a permanent downgrade, if it was, then Ichigo would be a cripple. The drawback has never been mentioned again, as should be noted.

Yeah, he's so much more experienced now with it ^^'

Didn't Byakuya say it takes years to learn how to use your BanKai in battle?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
In forum fights, we include their personality.


actually its the opposite in that we dont take a characters personality into account. if we did then villains would always lose their fights because they underestimate their opponents spiderman would pull all of his punches naruto would hold back against sasuke etc. generally for vs. fights its assumed that both people are fighting to the best of their ability and will pull out all the stops to win.

in other news a seagull pooped on me while i was on my way to school this morning.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yeah, he's so much more experienced now with it ^^'

Didn't Byakuya say it takes years to learn how to use your BanKai in battle? Ichigo has been a Shinigami for a few months.

He is at the level of a powerful captain.

He is clearly not a normal case.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I disagree.

Only Ichigo after just using his Bankai could really beat Byakuya. During and afterwhich there's good evidence he lost all the speed he used that he needs to defeat Byakuya. Grimmjow isn't fast enough to Elude Byakuya's bankai.


That and Ichigo struggled epically to beat grimmjow. Byakuya used Bankai and owned Zommori like a b*tch


I dont think Grimmjow is neccesarily slow. Matter of fact, I believes he's actually rather fast.

Also, Zommari isnt as strong as Grimmjow, seeing as he is Espada 7.



Now thats just silly, lets take a look back and see how well Byakuya handled Ichigo's Hollow powers.....Yeah, not too well. Well Released Grimmjow faired quite impressively against Hollow form Ichigo. I'd say Grimmjow takes it with no contest in full power.



Kenpachi is a pretty inconsistant character. There is NO way Ichigo could take Nnoitra without all the upgrades he's recieved since the Soul Society Arc. However Kenpachi lost to Ichigo without soo much as Ichigo's Bankai....I call PIS on Ichigo's victory on Kenpachi.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
actually its the opposite in that we dont take a characters personality into account. if we did then villains would always lose their fights because they underestimate their opponents spiderman would pull all of his punches naruto would hold back against sasuke etc. generally for vs. fights its assumed that both people are fighting to the best of their ability and will pull out all the stops to win.

in other news a seagull pooped on me while i was on my way to school this morning.

We do take personality into account.
(Fighting to the best of their ability but within the limits defined by their personality unless specified by the TC)

Not all villains underestimate their opponents. That's a cliche that is hardly used anymore anyway. Spiderman only pulls his punches when up against thugs and opponents weaker than him.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers


Now thats just silly, lets take a look back and see how well Byakuya handled Ichigo's Hollow powers.....Yeah, not too well. Well Released Grimmjow faired quite impressively against Hollow form Ichigo. I'd say Grimmjow takes it with no contest in full power.


One handed Grimmjow was getting owned by Vizard Ichigo until the latter's time limit hit.



~ I don't think there's a power difference between One-handed Grimmjow and normal Grimmjow anyway. Only a status difference, and perhaps maybe a slight difference in psyche.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
I dont think Grimmjow is neccesarily slow. Matter of fact, I believes he's actually rather fast.

Also, Zommari isnt as strong as Grimmjow, seeing as he is Espada 7.



Now thats just silly, lets take a look back and see how well Byakuya handled Ichigo's Hollow powers.....Yeah, not too well. Well Released Grimmjow faired quite impressively against Hollow form Ichigo. I'd say Grimmjow takes it with no contest in full power.



Kenpachi is a pretty inconsistant character. There is NO way Ichigo could take Nnoitra without all the upgrades he's recieved since the Soul Society Arc. However Kenpachi lost to Ichigo without soo much as Ichigo's Bankai....I call PIS on Ichigo's victory on Kenpachi.

It's silly to think the guy who'se taking on the 0 espada could beat the 6th?

..... humour me.

The 0th Espada who has continued to be largely unimpressive...

Originally posted by EvilAngel
It's silly to think the guy who'se taking on the 0 espada could beat the 6th?

..... humour me.

Oh yeah, and he's definitely "taking him on" all by himself too..


Facts are facts, Byakuya couldnt handle Ichigo's Hollow powers. Grimmjow could in his released form.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The 0th Espada who has continued to be largely unimpressive...

Well he did beat the crap out of Ichigo and Ichigo's most powerful attack didn't even do that much damage to him. The 0th Espada even once said that Grimmjow and Ulquiorra were weak compared to him. Before Ichigo received more damage, Byakuya sliced the 0th Espada's arm off with Senbosakura (if I even spelled that right) with ease. If Byakuya can easily slice the limbs off the toughest Espada, he can easily destroy Grimmjow.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Well he did beat the crap out of Ichigo and Ichigo's most powerful attack didn't even do that much damage to him. The 0th Espada even once said that Grimmjow and Ulquiorra were weak compared to him. Before Ichigo received more damage, Byakuya sliced the 0th Espada's arm off with Senbosakura (if I even spelled that right) with ease. If Byakuya can easily slice the limbs off the toughest Espada, he can easily destroy Grimmjow.


Wow! And Kenpachi cut off one of his legs. Yet, Kenpachi struggled against Nnoitra. Once again inconsistant as I said earlier.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The 0th Espada who has continued to be largely unimpressive...

All of the espada are looking unimpressive right about now =\

Fact is though Kenny and Byakuya look good on Yammy atm.



Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
Oh yeah, and he's definitely "taking him on" all by himself too..


Facts are facts, Byakuya couldnt handle Ichigo's Hollow powers. Grimmjow could in his released form.

....Mmmm, this arguement is incorrect from a basis.

Ichigo is using Hollow powers when he fights Grimmjow for the second and last times.

Hollow Ichigo fought Byakuya, not Ichigo. And not Ichigo using hollow powers


The problem with this is that Hollow Ichigo has demonstrated skill with his weapon worlds apart from Ichigo.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
All of the espada are looking unimpressive right about now =\

Fact is though Kenny and Byakuya look good on Yammy atm. Starrk has the single best speed feat to date in Bleach, Barragan has a broken ability that would not let Yammy come near him, Halibel...Yeah she kinda sucks, Ulquiorra can toss blasts comparable to a low-yield nuke, etc. etc.

Yammy is less impressive than three of the top four.

He used to be a big dumb guy. Now he is an even bigger dumb guy. Only noticeable difference.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
All of the espada are looking unimpressive right about now =\

Fact is though Kenny and Byakuya look good on Yammy atm.





....Mmmm, this arguement is incorrect from a basis.

Ichigo is using Hollow powers when he fights Grimmjow for the second and last times.

Hollow Ichigo fought Byakuya, not Ichigo. And not Ichigo using hollow powers


The problem with this is that Hollow Ichigo has demonstrated skill with his weapon worlds apart from Ichigo.

Regardless, 'Soul Society' Byakuya wouldn't be able to handle Vizard Ichigo. If Vizard Ichigo takes him on with the same mindset he had when he faced Grimmjow in Karakura, 11 seconds is more than enough. Extreme speed was Senbonzakura Kageyoshi's weakness then (and perhaps even now).

Originally posted by NemeBro

Yammy is less impressive than three of the top four.


To be honest, so far, he's less impressive than even the 8th, 7th, & 6th espada so far.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
All of the espada are looking unimpressive right about now =\

Fact is though Kenny and Byakuya look good on Yammy atm.





....Mmmm, this arguement is incorrect from a basis.

Ichigo is using Hollow powers when he fights Grimmjow for the second and last times.

Hollow Ichigo fought Byakuya, not Ichigo. And not Ichigo using hollow powers


The problem with this is that Hollow Ichigo has demonstrated skill with his weapon worlds apart from Ichigo.

So you think Byakuya could take Ichigo using his Hollow powers? Even then he couldnt even handle his Bankai?

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
So you think Byakuya could take Ichigo using his Hollow powers? Even then he couldnt even handle his Bankai?

That's pretty much what I think. Yes


Note: Grimmjow could not handle Vizard Ichigo, as both times he fought it, he lost to it. Considering in their second fight he was able to get killed before the mask broke.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
So you think Byakuya could take Ichigo using his Hollow powers? Even then he couldnt even handle his Bankai?

Current Byakuya possibly could take him on. Not Soul Society arc Byakuya though.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Current Byakuya possibly could take him on. Not Soul Society arc Byakuya though. What makes you think there's any difference in strength level?

What is Stark's speed feat?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
That's pretty much what I think. Yes That has absolutely no backing to it.

Considering NORMAL Bankai Ichigo beat Byakuya.

And Luminatus, Starrk's feat was grabbing Orihime, and instantly transporting her to the tower in Las Noches before Kenpachi and Ichigo could stop him.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
That's pretty much what I think. Yes


Note: Grimmjow could not handle Vizard Ichigo, as both times he fought it, he lost to it. Considering in their second fight he was able to get killed before the mask broke.

Grimmjow released could and DID handle Vizard Ichigo. Ichigo was about to die until Orihime PIS kicked in. Who was able to get killed? Nobody died in that fight. Perhaps you're assuming Ichigo had opportunities to kill Grimmjow before his mask began to shatter. But you really have no evidence of that since they were fighting pretty on par. My personal belief is that Ichigo's victory over Grimmjow is completely the result of PIS.

Byakuya was defeated by Bankai Ichigo. Grimmjow base form smacks around Bankai Ichigo like a *****. I dont see how you could possibly come up with an equation that results in Grimmjows defeat.

Vizard Ichigo>Grimmjow>Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya



Possibly the fact that he's now swatting Espada level opponents down like they're nothing i.e. Zommari.

This whole conversation is making me realize how inconsistant every Bleach character is. At the beggining of the arc, Toshiro (Captain level Shinigami mind you..) can barely take down a Fraccion. Now Captain Level Shinigami are fighting Espada level Arrancar out of nowhere and taking them down.

Byakuya and the other Captains must have began honing their skills off screen after learning of the Arrancar threat.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
What makes you think there's any difference in strength level?

a) What makes you think there isn't? Most characters (that we see fighting properly in both arcs) have become stronger in this arc.
Remember, everyone has been training in preparation for this war. Byakuya may be an arrogant snot, but even he would train to get stronger.

b) If he could not handle Bankai Ichigo's speed, what's he going to do against someone that is much faster, stronger and deadlier?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
a) What makes you think there isn't? Most characters (that we see fighting properly in both arcs) have become stronger in this arc.
Remember, everyone has been training in preparation for this war. Byakuya may be an arrogant snot, but even he would train to get stronger.

Because i have my doubts being who are hundreds of years old would get much stronger than their current level within a few months.


I've been doing some thinking. And it's occurred to me.

"All the captains got stronger" or any statement which resembles this. Is wrong.

We all agree that Bleach is inconsistent strength-wise. So because it;s the captains that seemed to have become buffed we label them as inconsistent. But that assumption is wrong.

"The simplest solution is most often the right one"

Ichigo.

The only person that allows us any insight that makes us think the captains became stronger in order to fight the espada is Ichigo.

I work on the basis the less you have to change in a problem to make it correct would be the simplest. So when i thought about All the captains got a power boost, even Kenpachi who we saw lazing on his butt it didn't seem simple. But in one sentence i found a plausible solution.

Ichigo got weaker.

If that's true, everything fits.

My theory is simply that while his Hollow was fighting him for control his powers were drained. After gaining his mask back he began to learn to use his powers again, thus climbing the ladder back to where he was before.

And before you say it, this does have some backing to it

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/

It was after Ichigo attained Bankai did Shirosaki make his first appearance as Ichigo. I theorise after learning BanKai that is when Shirosaki became stronger then Zangetsu, and starting screwing with Ichigo's power.


And before you say, Ichigo's got stronger even after he got his mask. It's been shown his mask has been changing, that is likely the cause of that.




At the very least that makes more sense than random power boosts for all captains because they did a ickle bit of training.

That'd be all good if it wasnt said that Vasto Lorde Hollows were stronger than Captain Level Shinigami. That combined with the fact that the espada are Vasto Lorde level Hollow who have removed their masks and become even more powerful as Arrancar. The Captains would HAVE to become stronger to defeat them. As would Ichigo. Also, dont you think that at least one character or even Ichigo himself would notice him getting weaker? Seems like if Kubo Tite wanted Ichigo to have become weaker, he would have put SOMETHING in the manga to show us that, rather than some inconsistancies.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
That'd be all good if it wasnt said that Vasto Lorde Hollows were stronger than Captain Level Shinigami. That combined with the fact that the espada are Vasto Lorde level Hollow who have removed their masks and become even more powerful as Arrancar. The Captains would HAVE to become stronger to defeat them. As would Ichigo. Also, dont you think that at least one character or even Ichigo himself would notice him getting weaker? Seems like if Kubo Tite wanted Ichigo to have become weaker, he would have put SOMETHING in the manga to show us that, rather than some inconsistancies.

Ugh, you are aware that the only possible Vasto Lorde's in the series is Wonderweiss and Stark. Right?


Well....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ugh, you are aware that the only possible Vasto Lorde's in the series is Wonderweiss and Stark. Right?


Well....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/


Whats that link supposed to prove? Ichigo did not go full power there because he did not want to be taken over by his Hollow. He says it right there in the scan.

You do have a point. I mistook all the espada for Vasto Lorde class due to their human like form. But quickly realized all Arrancar recieve that form. So on that, you are correct.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
Whats that link supposed to prove? Ichigo did not go full power there because he did not want to be taken over by his Hollow. He says it right there in the scan.

You do have a point. I mistook all the espada for Vasto Lorde class due to their human form. But quickly realized all Arrancar recieve that form. So on that, you are correct.



Well between the two scans we have someone Identifying Ichigo's power fluctuating and Shirosaki admitting he denying Ichigo power so he could take over his soul.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Because i have my doubts being who are hundreds of years old would get much stronger than their current level within a few months.


I've been doing some thinking. And it's occurred to me.

"All the captains got stronger" or any statement which resembles this. Is wrong.

We all agree that Bleach is inconsistent strength-wise. So because it;s the captains that seemed to have become buffed we label them as inconsistent. But that assumption is wrong.

"The simplest solution is most often the right one"

Ichigo.

The only person that allows us any insight that makes us think the captains became stronger in order to fight the espada is Ichigo.

I work on the basis the less you have to change in a problem to make it correct would be the simplest. So when i thought about All the captains got a power boost, even Kenpachi who we saw lazing on his butt it didn't seem simple. But in one sentence i found a plausible solution.

Ichigo got weaker.

If that's true, everything fits.

My theory is simply that while his Hollow was fighting him for control his powers were drained. After gaining his mask back he began to learn to use his powers again, thus climbing the ladder back to where he was before.

And before you say it, this does have some backing to it

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/

It was after Ichigo attained Bankai did Shirosaki make his first appearance as Ichigo. I theorise after learning BanKai that is when Shirosaki became stronger then Zangetsu, and starting screwing with Ichigo's power.


And before you say, Ichigo's got stronger even after he got his mask. It's been shown his mask has been changing, that is likely the cause of that.




At the very least that makes more sense than random power boosts for all captains because they did a ickle bit of training.

Fair enough, I concede on the training point (for now ). Unless they had some sort of Spirit room (ala DBZ), they couldn't have gained a significant power boost.

Impressive, you have interesting theories. hmm.

Ichigo drop in power makes sense up to a certain point.

Ichigo dipped in power during the gap between SS and the Arrancar arc. He soon regained his original power level and he's long since surpassed the level of power that he demonstrated against Byakuya. Though fair enough, the Bankai Ichigo that fought Grimmjow the first time did seem inferior to the version that appeared when he first activated Bankai.
Another reason could be that the base level of his opponents have been increased, i.e. the bar has been raised.


I have a similar theory...similar.

Zangetsu has most often been the dominant force. The only times Shirosaki has had control over Ichigo (and subjugated Zangetsu) where when he appeared during the fight with Byakuya, the training with the Vizard, and during the fight against Ulquiorra.

I believe that the changes in his mask have reflected his reliance on his hollow side, the amount of control the hollow has as well as the physical state of Ichigo.

The first few appearances of the mask had very few black lines, and those were the times where the mask would just appear to block damage. Pretty soon, Hollow Ichigo broke out but it was in Ichigo's form, so the mask did not change (much?).

Not long after, Hollow Ichigo appears again, this time in a newer form. The mask changes yet again.

Later he gains some control over his hollow powers while being able to stay with his psyche intact for the most part. This mask gains more black lines (10 iirc). Then comes the final fight with Grimmjow where he gains another line that occurs almost simultaneously with the extension of his time limit.

Finally we have his infamous fight against Ulquiorra. The one where Hollow Ichigo appears yet again, this time with a mask unlike any of his other masks. The difference? The Black lines are on the left and the right side. During his fight against Yammy, Ichigo's hollow mask takes on a similar appearance, with lesser lines but on both sides of the mask. This is coupled with a complete hollow eye.

Thus my theory is such; as Ichigo slowly starts to rely more and more on his hollow side, said 'side' grows in control and influence. Ichigo has a finite amount of power in his reserve, the limit of which may or may not be increasing (though in all likelihood, it is increasing).

Thus the balance of power is slowly shifting towards his hollow side. This is turn may explain why Bankai Ichigo appears weaker. His shinigami powers are steadily growing weaker. Concurrently, Ichigo's hollow powers (and access to them while being a Vizard) are evolving, getting stronger; this is demonstrated through the appearance of the newer, stronger Hollow Ichigo in the fight against against Uluqiorra, as well as his slight personality shift against Yammy as noted by Rukia.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ugh, you are aware that the only possible Vasto Lorde's in the series is Wonderweiss and Stark. Right?


Well....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/

Barragan is a Vasto Lorde. His physique and appearance do not fit that of an Adjuchas. It's even possible that Espada's 4 and higher are Vasto Lordes due to the limit imposed by Aizen.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Well between the two scans we have someone Identifying Ichigo's power fluctuating and Shirosaki admitting he denying Ichigo power so he could take over his soul.


Uhhh...No...He never says that. Look at your scan again. He says the more power Ichigo uses, the easier it becomes for him to take over.

Also, yet again, Of course his power fluctuated and of course Ulquiorra noticed. Ichigo began the fight with every intent of ending Yammy right there. Once he began using his power though, he could feel Shirosaki taking over. Not wanting that, he lowered his power. Ulquiorra noticed it, thats all that scan proves...

Ichigo may fight on a lower level during the SS and HM arc, but he does it purposely to prevent Shirosaki from taking him over. Thats all made VERY clear.

It starts fluctuating because there is a struggle, not because Ichigo lowered his power.

FACT
Ichigo stopped using the necessary power to defeat Yammy because he knew it would enable Shirosaki to take over.

At that point in time, how the hell would he know that by drawing on more power, Shirosaki would take over? Why did Shirosaki not take over during that final strike Ichigo used against Byakuya, where he put all his strength in that last strike?

He was struggling, and his concentration was broken. He was more focused on suppressing Shirosaki than he was on fighting Yammy.

EA has a point as well. His reiatsu was already fluctuating, but Bankai Ichigo was stated to be thrash for most of the fight. However, when the fluctuation increased during the struggle, at it's highest point, it was above Ulquiorra's.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ugh, you are aware that the only possible Vasto Lorde's in the series is Wonderweiss and Stark. Right?


Well....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/ Bullshit.

Barragan before becoming an Arrancar ruled over the entirety of Hueco Mundo as its undisputed king, he was obviously a Vasto Lorde.

Nnoitra and Nel Tu were sent to capture a Vasto Lorde by Aizen, Aizen is an intelligent man, he would not send them to do something that was beyond their abilities, though it was probably Nel who was to do most of the fighting.

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/File:Vasto_Lorde.jpg

That silhouette look familiar to you? Oddly resembles a released Ulquiorra.

Ulquiorra, Barragan, Starrk, and Wonderweiss are at least Vasto Lorde.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ugh, you are aware that the only possible Vasto Lorde's in the series is Wonderweiss and Stark. Right?


Well....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/
Um wouldn't Barragan probably be a Vasto Lorde as well since he was among the strongest Hollows living before he became an arrancar?

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
Uhhh...No...He never says that. Look at your scan again. He says the more power Ichigo uses, the easier it becomes for him to take over.

Also, yet again, Of course his power fluctuated and of course Ulquiorra noticed. Ichigo began the fight with every intent of ending Yammy right there. Once he began using his power though, he could feel Shirosaki taking over. Not wanting that, he lowered his power. Ulquiorra noticed it, thats all that scan proves...

Ichigo may fight on a lower level during the SS and HM arc, but he does it purposely to prevent Shirosaki from taking him over. Thats all made VERY clear.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/

He is stated to be deliberately causing trouble for Ichigo, reducing his fighting capability to that of effectively zero.


How is it you lower your power?

You mean put less power into your attacks?

I'm confused simply because Ulquiorra was sensing his reaitsu levels, not how much power he was putting out into attacking/defending.


I do not recall anything to make me think you can lower your reaitsu. Conceal it yes, but not lower it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Bullshit.

Barragan before becoming an Arrancar ruled over the entirety of Hueco Mundo as its undisputed king, he was obviously a Vasto Lorde.

Nnoitra and Nel Tu were sent to capture a Vasto Lorde by Aizen, Aizen is an intelligent man, he would not send them to do something that was beyond their abilities, though it was probably Nel who was to do most of the fighting.

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/File:Vasto_Lorde.jpg

That silhouette look familiar to you? Oddly resembles a released Ulquiorra.

Ulquiorra, Barragan, Starrk, and Wonderweiss are at least Vasto Lorde.
Perhaps i mis-worded that.

To put it simply, Stark was shown to look as he does now before ever meeting Aizen. Simply put he fits exactly the description given of what is a Vasto Lorde.

Wonderwiess is suggested to be Aizens strongest minion to date, thus i would reason he is also a Vasto Lorde.


In my opinion, and that's all it is, i'm not trying to disprove or argue he isn't. Barragan hasn't got enough behind him to confirm him to be a Vasto Lorde in my eyes. He doesn't look like a human, and he's bigger than one. He's shown to be bigger than Hachii, which means he's not really human sized, as Hachii is a shinigami, and the biggest Shinigami to date minus that gate-guardian in the SS arc. We know nothing about his fighting capabilites reletive to a captain because he's only ever using his time power, which is so broken he doesn't need to use anything else. So we don't really know of his strength or speed etc.


The problem with saying Ulquiorra's silhouette used in the example means Ulquiorra is a Vasto Lorde is simply, he has 2 releases. We've not seen this occur anywhere else in the espada.

That and they are giving an example; which doesn't mean the example has to be. It's just a suggestion to give an idea to the reader. In my opinion i would think Ulquiorra is a VL. He's human sized, his fighting capability is truly far beyond a captains(of what we've seen so far), and he's done it all without trading his high speed regeneration for more power. But for all we know he was a big ugly bat when Aizen found him so... I just wouldn't say he is for certain, yet.


I don't mean to weasel out of a debate, but i don't really want to debate something i'm not certain of my own opinion about.

Originally posted by NemeBro

But what about Luppi? What was he?

Because everyone cares about Luppi.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
At that point in time, how the hell would he know that by drawing on more power, Shirosaki would take over? Why did Shirosaki not take over during that final strike Ichigo used against Byakuya, where he put all his strength in that last strike?


She posted another scan where Shirosaki even says it himself. He tells Ichigo that the more power he draws will allow Shirosaki to take over.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/

Also I'll give you that Shirosaki deliberately lowered Ichigo's Reiatsu in that scan. BUT he only did it because Ichigo refused to draw more on Zangetsu's power. It doesnt have anything to do with Ichigo becoming weaker. Ichigo still had the ability...but not the will.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
She posted another scan where Shirosaki even says it himself. He tells Ichigo that the more power he draws will allow Shirosaki to take over.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/

Also I'll give you that Shirosaki deliberately lowered Ichigo's Reiatsu in that scan. BUT he only did it because Ichigo refused to draw more on Zangetsu's power. It doesnt have anything to do with Ichigo becoming weaker. Ichigo still had the ability...but not the will.

Though i do not agree I'm going to turn your argument on it's head to make it agree with what i'm saying. Though again i repeat i think you've gotten the details wrong, but that's just what i think.


If he doesn't have the will, he's not fighting at full strength, which means his getting thoroughly owned by Grimmjow is down to this. He acted and fought weaker than he did when fighting Byakuya. Therefore he effectively was weaker. By your logic.

Which fits my argument in this debate well enough.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Though i do not agree I'm going to turn your argument on it's head to make it agree with what i'm saying. Though again i repeat i think you've gotten the details wrong, but that's just what i think.


If he doesn't have the will, he's not fighting at full strength, which means his getting thoroughly owned by Grimmjow is down to this. He acted and fought weaker than he did when fighting Byakuya. Therefore he effectively was weaker. By your logic.

Which fits my argument in this debate well enough.


I've been really forgetful in this arguement...You're correct. His first encounter with Grimmjow had Ichigo holding back since he didnt wantto fall under Shirosaki's control. He did finally release a Getsuga Tenshou which scarred Grimmjow after he finally decided to draw on Zangetsu's power. In which afterwards if I recall correctly you can see traces of black in his eyes representing Shirosaki gaining control.

However, I'm pretty sure Grimmjow got the upper hand on Bankai Ichigo in their third and final encounter before Ichigo goes into Vizard form. Even before that, we see Grimmjow keeping up with Bankai Ichigo with ease, while Ichigo seems to be slightly struggling.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CgqwsigCi6g&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CgqwsigCi6g&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

3:22 is when the actual fighting starts. Forgive me since this isnt a scan.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
She posted another scan where Shirosaki even says it himself. He tells Ichigo that the more power he draws will allow Shirosaki to take over.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/

Also I'll give you that Shirosaki deliberately lowered Ichigo's Reiatsu in that scan. BUT he only did it because Ichigo refused to draw more on Zangetsu's power. It doesnt have anything to do with Ichigo becoming weaker. Ichigo still had the ability...but not the will.

That was AFTER the fight with Yammy. At that point in time (vs. Yammy) Ichigo never knew that by drawing on more power from Zangetsu, Shirosaki would be able to take over.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Though i do not agree I'm going to turn your argument on it's head to make it agree with what i'm saying. Though again i repeat i think you've gotten the details wrong, but that's just what i think.


If he doesn't have the will, he's not fighting at full strength, which means his getting thoroughly owned by Grimmjow is down to this. He acted and fought weaker than he did when fighting Byakuya. Therefore he effectively was weaker. By your logic.

Which fits my argument in this debate well enough.

Not going to comment on my theory ? That's awfully kind of you. Too long to read is it?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That was AFTER the fight with Yammy. At that point in time (vs. Yammy) Ichigo never knew that by drawing on more power from Zangetsu, Shirosaki would be able to take over.



Not going to comment on my theory ? That's awfully kind of you. Too long to read is it?

I figured i'd wait to form a good response before replying to it.

That's all

If it'll make you happy, i see nothing wrong with it. It's completely plausable.

Ichigo couldn't even cut Grimmjaw when he was using ban kai.

when Grimmjow fought Ichigo the second time, he not only was doing so with one arm gone, but without his rank. and when he got his rank back after killing Luppi (thank you, Grimmjow) he remarked that his power's back. this could mean that he either lost the authority that came with being an espada or he actually experienced a drop in power when he lost his rank.

but back to the topic of this thread, I'd say Grimmjow wins, but with some considerable effort.

Originally posted by danteiscool
when Grimmjow fought Ichigo the second time, he not only was doing so with one arm gone, but without his rank. and when he got his rank back after killing Luppi (thank you, Grimmjow) he remarked that his power's back. this could mean that he either lost the authority that came with being an espada or he actually experienced a drop in power when he lost his rank.

but back to the topic of this thread, I'd say Grimmjow wins, but with some considerable effort.

Most likely just the rank. I doubt having his arm blown off would significantly affect his reiatsu.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I figured i'd wait to form a good response before replying to it.

That's all

If it'll make you happy, i see nothing wrong with it. It's completely plausable.

Fair enough. Though you could have at least stated that you would reply later .

Nothing to do with my happiness, though it's nice to see that you are concerned about that w00t.

The embed on the video above didnt work. Sorry. Here's a link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmpcpod12Zs

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That was AFTER the fight with Yammy. At that point in time (vs. Yammy) Ichigo never knew that by drawing on more power from Zangetsu, Shirosaki would be able to take over.



Seems to me that Ichigo has a pretty good idea of whats happening in the first frame of this scan.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/


Sorry for the double post.

Seems to me that Ichigo was refusing to let him take control in the first frame of that scan.
Not only that, but he was thinking 'Go Away Go Away Go Away Go Away' a few pages back. Now why would he think that, if all he needed to do was to lower his power so that Shirosaki would not take control?
As a matter of fact, why would he clutch his head if he wasn't struggling with Shirosaki? Wouldn't he be trying to fight Yammy instead of clutching his head if what you think is true?

Seriously, that quote refers to Ichigo fighting for control with 'Shirosaki' (though I have no idea where that came from. Personally I prefer to call him Ogihci), so when Ichigo's power fluctuates to being stronger that Ulq its becuase Shiro is on top becuase Shiro>>>>>>Ichigo, then Ichigo represses him again and he becomes 'trash' etc.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
The embed on the video above didnt work. Sorry. Here's a link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmpcpod12Zs

I disagree they seemed entirely even. Ichigo being Ichigo wasn't in the game which is the only reason he was loosing.

He only used his mask to protect Inoue.




Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Fair enough. Though you could have at least stated that you would reply later .

Nothing to do with my happiness, though it's nice to see that you are concerned about that w00t.

I think your theory explains mine better than i did.

I now see it that when Shirosaki said he became the dominate force within Ichigo he meant what you were saying.

This explains what i think perfectly. Simply said


Originally posted by Nephthys
Seriously, that quote refers to Ichigo fighting for control with 'Shirosaki' (though I have no idea where that came from. Personally I prefer to call him Ogihci)

As a name Kurosaki means Black/Dark blade.
Shirosaki means Light/White blade.

Hence Shirosaki. typically if you put in into a search engine you'll get more hits than Ogihci, so it's just easier to only use that one name.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Seriously, that quote refers to Ichigo fighting for control with 'Shirosaki'

Correct.

Originally posted by EvilAngel

I think your theory explains mine better than i did.

I now see it that when Shirosaki said he became the dominate force within Ichigo he meant what you were saying.

This explains what i think perfectly. Simply said


It's still my theory....

Though one thing I find odd is that the black lines increase which shows that Ichigo is embracing his hollow side, and yet Shirosaki is white.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Okay, let me say it like this.

Pre-bankai Ichigo beat Kenpachi. Who beat Nnoitra, espada 5
Vizard ichigo beat Grimmjow, espada 6
Peak Bankai Ichigo beat Byakuya, who beat Zommori espada 7


Are you seeing it from my PoV yet?


Yes. Ichigo's strength in each fight is gimped and Kenpachi's was waaaaay over-powered with his fight with #5.

I think Zommari fell victim to CIS, as I wonder why he didn't just capture Byakuya's head before the latter figured out the weakness of Zommari's release.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ugh, you are aware that the only possible Vasto Lorde's in the series is Wonderweiss and Stark. Right?


Well....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/

Barringan was the only confirmed Vasto Lorde. He was the "Lorde" of ALL Hallows. It doesn't get anymore definitive than that. Starrk and Wonderweiss are still speculation at this point. Even Ulq is not confirmed as a Vasto Lorde.




Now, I have another theory: Toshiro's statement was Hyperbole designed specifically to "drum up" hype for the Espada.


And, your idea about Ichigo getting weaker WOULD explain everything, it is justi has too many contradictions. At one point, someone (maybe it was Rukia), looks at Vizard Ichigo and is like "gaspity, he just keeps getting stronger" etc. Maybe that was in the anime.

There's other little tidbits like that, that would provide contradictions to that theory, I would have to read the manga a lot, though, to figure that out.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I disagree they seemed entirely even. Ichigo being Ichigo wasn't in the game which is the only reason he was loosing.

He only used his mask to protect Inoue.


Grimmjow definitely gets an upper hand on him. Either way, if Ichigo didnt use his mask that Blue Cero probably would have messed him up bad, Inoue or not. Also, even though they seem to be on even footing. Look at their facial expressions as they cross swords. Grimmjow looks like he's having a grand old time, while Ichigo appears to be struggling a bit. The facial expressions is admittedly speculation though.


Either way, even or not. Grimmjow + another upgrade(release)>Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya.

As for Byakuya vs One Armed Grimmjow...I'm not soo sure anymore...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Barringan was the only confirmed Vasto Lorde. He was the "Lorde" of ALL Hallows. It doesn't get anymore definitive than that. Starrk and Wonderweiss are still speculation at this point. Even Ulq is not confirmed as a Vasto Lorde.




Now, I have another theory: Toshiro's statement was Hyperbole designed specifically to "drum up" hype for the Espada.


And, your idea about Ichigo getting weaker WOULD explain everything, it is justi has too many contradictions. At one point, someone (maybe it was Rukia), looks at Vizard Ichigo and is like "gaspity, he just keeps getting stronger" etc. Maybe that was in the anime.

There's other little tidbits like that, that would provide contradictions to that theory, I would have to read the manga a lot, though, to figure that out.

Okay.... so he rule over a bunch of hollows in a large/super sized city area in the Japan region in the hollow world. That makes him the king of all hollows in all the world? I think that's a little silly. Given only Barragan claimed he was the king of all Hollows, and i think it's fair to say we all know how far up his own arse he was.


Barragan was surrounded by servants and minions all the time.

Any that were around stark, literally died from his spiritual pressure. Stark is in a different league to Barragan.



So far, Toshiro's statements are all we have on who is and is not a VL. There is less going for Barragan being one than against him, that's all there is to it.



I don't recall this. I remember her saying his power had become wild, or there along the lines of, but nothing of what you're saying.

It's just a theory of mine that has less plot holes than assuming all captains got a random power boost. I'm not saying "This is the truth, believe it" just that as i see it, this makes a heck of all more sense than what else we have for idea's.

Originally posted by Micheal_Myers

Either way, even or not. Grimmjow + another upgrade(release)>Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya.

As for Byakuya vs One Armed Grimmjow...I'm not soo sure anymore...


A B C logic is a fail. Exactly why most peoples arguments for this fight doesn't do anything for me.

I was going to have a fairly lengthy post to argue this further, but then my internet died and was deleted. So now I probably will not make one.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I was going to have a fairly lengthy post to argue this further, but then my internet died and was deleted. So now I probably will not make one.

God bless the internet....

I mean, what were you going to argue against?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
God bless the internet....

I mean, what were you going to argue against? You dissin' mah boi Barragan. estahuh

Mostly just the Vasto Lorde thing.

Yeah, he's a fat smelly old man

I see. Well neither of us can 'prove' it, it's all down to opinion, right?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yeah, he's a fat smelly old man

I see. Well neither of us can 'prove' it, it's all down to opinion, right? He's not fat, he's an angry buff short old man who wears fur, has a crown, and has a battle-axe. He's a Viking. estahuh

Of course, but that has never stopped me before. 131

If there were Hollows that weren't ruled by Barragan, he wouldn't have been sitting on his ass being bored, he would have been out trying to conquer them.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He's not fat, he's an angry buff short old man who wears fur, has a crown, and has a battle-axe. He's a Viking. estahuh

Of course, but that has never stopped me before. 131

He has a beer belly. Thing about him being a viking is, Viking are cool, he isn't

....touche


Originally posted by King Kandy
If there were Hollows that weren't ruled by Barragan, he wouldn't have been sitting on his ass being bored, he would have been out trying to conquer them.


Why do you think this?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
He has a beer belly. Thing about him being a viking is, Viking are cool, he isn't

....touche





Why do you think this? ...Not really...Also, he is so clearly beyond awesome, you are simply blinded by the awesomeness and have become deluded to believe he is not. 131

I winRAR is me.

3. Well Barragan is arrogant, and has a desire to conquer and rule everyone that opposes him, why would he not?

The idea that the top Espada aren't Vasto lordes is as retarded as the people who insisted the strongest demons in Yu Yu Hakusho were never seen. You see Koenma said the strongest demons were way way down and we never went way way down. So obviously Raizen and Mokuro were just chumps and the real baddies were somewher eelse.

Honestly. People have so little faith in author's storytelling abilities. Even if you don't like Bleach, no authro is retarded enough to have all his strongest villains be second-rate to nothing.

I think you're confused.

I never said that VL's were never seen, i'm saying i just don't think Barragan is one. Nothing wrong with that since i've stated my reasons why i think that

Originally posted by NemeBro
...Not really...Also, he is so clearly beyond awesome, you are simply blinded by the awesomeness and have become deluded to believe he is not. 131

I winRAR is me.

3. Well Barragan is arrogant, and has a desire to conquer and rule everyone that opposes him, why would he not?

................Sure.... that has to be the answer.... *coughs*


He was under the belief he was a god. If so then one would think he assumed everyone and everything was under his rule. The fact he was unable to identify Aizen was a sign he's not aware of things beyond his borders.

I never said you said that. I simply said that thinking the top Espada aren't VLs is stupid. A lot of people do actually subscribe to that theory.

So who do you think is a Vasto Lordes?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
He was under the belief he was a god. If so then one would think he assumed everyone and everything was under his rule. The fact he was unable to identify Aizen was a sign he's not aware of things beyond his borders. He thought he was god of Hueco Mundo...Which he was. Aizen did not reside in Hueco Mundo until recent dates, and you are mistaking his claims of godhood with claims of omniscience, granted the god thing was an arrogant boast, but he did rule Hueco Mundo.

'god' is a title anyway.

If we go by Warcraft's definition, he was worshipped, and he was technically immortal/long-lived/did not age. I'm kewl like that. Granted, it probably does not apply here.

Originally posted by Luminatus
I never said you said that. I simply said that thinking the top Espada aren't VLs is stupid. A lot of people do actually subscribe to that theory.

So who do you think is a Vasto Lordes?

Seems i misinterpreted, i thought you implied i said that.

So, do you think Yammy is a Vasto Lorde?


As i see it the only ones we can confirm are most likely VL's are Stark, and Wonderwiess.

In my opinion?

Stark, Wonderwiess and Ulquiorra

Originally posted by NemeBro
He thought he was god of Hueco Mundo...Which he was. Aizen did not reside in Hueco Mundo until recent dates, and you are mistaking his claims of godhood with claims of omniscience, granted the god thing was an arrogant boast, but he did rule Hueco Mundo.

The first thing (or one of) he said was, "you don't have masks, so you're not hollows". This pretty much proves he has limited knowledge of Hueco Mundo. He was not immediately certain there were not hollow. If he was ruling ALL of Hueco Mundo he'd be aware of 3 beings stronger than himself. Niether did he seem to be aware of Stark.

Everything said about Barragan is tripe imo

I see no reason to think he knew anything about Hueco Mundo beyond Las Noches.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
The first thing (or one of) he said was, "you don't have masks, so you're not hollows". This pretty much proves he has limited knowledge of Hueco Mundo. He was not immediately certain there were not hollow. If he was ruling ALL of Hueco Mundo he'd be aware of 3 beings stronger than himself. Niether did he seem to be aware of Stark.

Everything said about Barragan is tripe imo

I see no reason to think he knew anything about Hueco Mundo beyond Las Noches. What the hell are you talking about? There is literally one Hollow who apparently lacked a mask, and that was Starrk. Once again, you are asserting that ruling something requires you to be omniscient of everything in it. Barragan is no Enel. Limited knowledge? How do you come up with this conclusion, though of course it is limited, just not to the extent you seem to believe. Three beings stronger than himself? And...Who would those be? Surely you are not including Tousen and Gin into that claim, especially Tousen, and Gin has not proven to be stronger either. Aizen sure. Starrk, yeah he supposedly is, but I do not see why. Wonderweiss is not stronger than Barragan, he was having his ass kicked by a Liutenant Arrancar, until her mask broke she was dominating him.

Also, you once mentioned he had no showings of strength, speed, or durability.

Untrue.

In terms of physical strength, he smashed a large building with a casual swipe of his axe.

In terms of speed, he was able to surprise Soifon, one of the fastest Shinigami, with his and grab her.

In terms of durability, he tanked Soifon's Bankai pretty well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What the hell are you talking about? There is literally one Hollow who apparently lacked a mask, and that was Starrk. Once again, you are asserting that ruling something requires you to be omniscient of everything in it. Barragan is no Enel. Limited knowledge? How do you come up with this conclusion, though of course it is limited, just not to the extent you seem to believe. Three beings stronger than himself? And...Who would those be? Surely you are not including Tousen and Gin into that claim, especially Tousen, and Gin has not proven to be stronger either. Aizen sure. Starrk, yeah he supposedly is, but I do not see why. Wonderweiss is not stronger than Barragan, he was having his ass kicked by a Liutenant Arrancar, until her mask broke she was dominating him.

Also, you once mentioned he had no showings of strength, speed, or durability.

Untrue.

In terms of physical strength, he smashed a large building with a casual swipe of his axe.

In terms of speed, he was able to surprise Soifon, one of the fastest Shinigami, with his and grab her.

In terms of durability, he tanked Soifon's Bankai pretty well.

Don't get so worked up.

Okay, let's try this again. Why do you think he knew of Hueco Mundo, outside of Las Noches. Any proof of it at all?


Destroying a building is your strength feat... I'm not sure how that could be considered a feat of strength as no character has has difficulty in doing that same by accident. I mean, Grimmjow kicked Ichigo through several buildings in Las Noches, yet i doubt he's stronger than Barragan.


I'm unaware of this feat. I looked it up and all i could find as a Shunpo to her.


I would guess his aura of decay prevented most of the damage.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Why do you think this?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/03/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/06/

Obviously they were all just sitting around waiting for a fight. So if there was anyone to attack, they would have gone for it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/03/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/06/

Obviously they were all just sitting around waiting for a fight. So if there was anyone to attack, they would have gone for it.

...Even if there was possibly nothing beyond their 'kingdom' ?

They'd run all around for potentially eternity looking for something to put under their rule? Why? he believes himself to be god, the result in his mind would be he'd win, nothing interesting.

He was so bored that he would have made his army fight itself. And you're telling me, he wouldn't have been interested in invasion. Especially since he said his army was awaiting invasion. What exactly were they awaiting if they though they were all there was? There's nothing to make us think he has such a limited viewpoint, all other Hollow's seemed to know there were others around so why not Barragan? Why do you think he alone would somehow be completely ignorant of anything beyond like a 3 mile radius?

Originally posted by King Kandy
He was so bored that he would have made his army fight itself. And you're telling me, he wouldn't have been interested in invasion. Especially since he said his army was awaiting invasion. What exactly were they awaiting if they though they were all there was? There's nothing to make us think he has such a limited viewpoint, all other Hollow's seemed to know there were others around so why not Barragan? Why do you think he alone would somehow be completely ignorant of anything beyond like a 3 mile radius?

Because he acts like he's the strongest, and that just isn't true. Simply put.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
actually its the opposite in that we dont take a characters personality into account. if we did then villains would always lose their fights because they underestimate their opponents spiderman would pull all of his punches naruto would hold back against sasuke etc. generally for vs. fights its assumed that both people are fighting to the best of their ability and will pull out all the stops to win.

in other news a seagull pooped on me while i was on my way to school this morning.

CIS is still counted in fights.


And....


Sucks.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Because i have my doubts being who are hundreds of years old would get much stronger than their current level within a few months.


I've been doing some thinking. And it's occurred to me.

"All the captains got stronger" or any statement which resembles this. Is wrong.

We all agree that Bleach is inconsistent strength-wise. So because it;s the captains that seemed to have become buffed we label them as inconsistent. But that assumption is wrong.

"The simplest solution is most often the right one"

Ichigo.

The only person that allows us any insight that makes us think the captains became stronger in order to fight the espada is Ichigo.

I work on the basis the less you have to change in a problem to make it correct would be the simplest. So when i thought about All the captains got a power boost, even Kenpachi who we saw lazing on his butt it didn't seem simple. But in one sentence i found a plausible solution.

Ichigo got weaker.

If that's true, everything fits.

My theory is simply that while his Hollow was fighting him for control his powers were drained. After gaining his mask back he began to learn to use his powers again, thus climbing the ladder back to where he was before.

And before you say it, this does have some backing to it

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/

It was after Ichigo attained Bankai did Shirosaki make his first appearance as Ichigo. I theorise after learning BanKai that is when Shirosaki became stronger then Zangetsu, and starting screwing with Ichigo's power.


And before you say, Ichigo's got stronger even after he got his mask. It's been shown his mask has been changing, that is likely the cause of that.




At the very least that makes more sense than random power boosts for all captains because they did a ickle bit of training.

Isn't this all basically what I said back in the Kenpachi thread?


Ichio's power is flat out stated to be inconsistent on a second by second basis.. no theories needed.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Okay.... so he rule over a bunch of hollows in a large/super sized city area in the Japan region in the hollow world. That makes him the king of all hollows in all the world? I think that's a little silly. Given only Barragan claimed he was the king of all Hollows, and i think it's fair to say we all know how far up his own arse he was.


Barragan was surrounded by servants and minions all the time.

Any that were around stark, literally died from his spiritual pressure. Stark is in a different league to Barragan.



So far, Toshiro's statements are all we have on who is and is not a VL. There is less going for Barragan being one than against him, that's all there is to it.



I don't recall this. I remember her saying his power had become wild, or there along the lines of, but nothing of what you're saying.

It's just a theory of mine that has less plot holes than assuming all captains got a random power boost. I'm not saying "This is the truth, believe it" just that as i see it, this makes a heck of all more sense than what else we have for idea's.




A B C logic is a fail. Exactly why most peoples arguments for this fight doesn't do anything for me.


Wait wait wait.


Baranggan is now being demoted from King of all Hallows for ALL of Hueco Mundo to just a group leader? When did this happen?


And, no, Baranggan is the only confirmed Vasto Lorde. Sure, it wasn't stated directly, but being the King of all hallows would put him above every hallow including other Vasto Lorde.

So you guys don't think I'm making up that he was king of ALL of Hueco Mundo:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/07/


Tousen refers to Baranggan as the King of Hueco Mundo.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wait wait wait.


Baranggan is now being demoted from King of all Hallows for ALL of Hueco Mundo to just a group leader? When did this happen?


And, no, Baranggan is the only confirmed Vasto Lorde. Sure, it wasn't stated directly, but being the King of all hallows would put him above every hallow including other Vasto Lorde.


It's not happening, this is simply my thoughts on it. Everyone else is disagreeing understandably, but i'm just stating my opinion.

Which to be fair i stated before i even mentioned imo Barragan isn't a VL.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
It's not happening, this is simply my thoughts on it. Everyone else is disagreeing understandably, but i'm just stating my opinion.

Which to be fair i stated before i even mentioned imo Barragan isn't a VL.


Baranggan is the only one that we can definitively say is a Vasto Lorde. All of the others, it is speculation. Including Starrk.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Don't get so worked up.

Okay, let's try this again. Why do you think he knew of Hueco Mundo, outside of Las Noches. Any proof of it at all?


Destroying a building is your strength feat... I'm not sure how that could be considered a feat of strength as no character has has difficulty in doing that same by accident. I mean, Grimmjow kicked Ichigo through several buildings in Las Noches, yet i doubt he's stronger than Barragan.


I'm unaware of this feat. I looked it up and all i could find as a Shunpo to her.


I would guess his aura of decay prevented most of the damage. NO YOU DON'T GET SO WORKED UP!!!

Hun, most of the time you tell me to not get worked up, I am completely calm.

Why? A better question is what leads you to believe Barragan and Barragan alone had absolutely no knowledge of Hueco Mundo beyond a few miles? He is not merely proclaiming himself the king of Hueco Mundo, others in the manga support and refer to him as such.

What do you think takes more strength, punching through a wall, or punching the wall with enough force to cut directly through the entire thing? That was what Barragan did. Sealed, I may add. The only person with definately better cutting feats is Kenpachi, that I can recall anyway. Also, he was able to completely overpower Soifon physically, something not even her mentor, Yoruichi, was able to do, the same Yoruichi who could physically knock out Yammy, who although the weakest sealed did have fairly impressive Hierro.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/16/

Was able to clear the distance between them instantly, which clearly shocked Soifon, a display of his speed, and it is called Sonido. 131

It was not fast enough that time, which was the point.

Also, I think you are underrating his power over time...All things considered, it is among the most broken abilities in the series.

I find it hard to consider Barragan anything but a Vasto Lorde.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Baranggan is the only one that we can definitively say is a Vasto Lorde. All of the others, it is speculation. Including Starrk. Nah, I would say that is a given.

Spiritual pressure with such power it could kill others with his presence?

That kind of pure spiritual power is unrivaled IMO.

Hmmm, i was just watchig Arrancar encyclopedia, you know it's impled all the espada are VL's?

Reguardless, i understand your reasoning. After talking about it with my friend, i've changed my mind. Before i was thinking more along the lines of indesputable proof, but, that's not what it's about. It's just about what you want to believe.

Imo, espada's 5-1 are VL's

Simply because 5 and higher (yammy beinbg the exception) use weapons even while released. Personally i take that as a sign they are VL's.

Also the statement "Vasto Lorde's battle capabilites exceed that of a captain" is generalized to your average captain.


Nnoitra only fought Kenpachi in a physical blade battle, in which Kenpachi is well beyond the average captain.

That's what i like to think atleast.

Everyone above that has shown up a captain quite clearly.

Wasn't Nnoitra Espada 8, back when the Espada were weaker though?

Also, where is this Arrancar Encyclopedia? And the ninth Espada is confirmed to be a former Gillian, just saying.

Everyone in the Espada were at least Adjuchas, except for #9 as NB pointed out.

Seeing as there's such a huge gap between #8 and #4 (with Grimmjow/#6 a confirmed Adjuchas), I'd assume that at least #4 and up (if not #5 and up) were Vasto Lorde before they underwent Shinigamification. Then we have the release restraints imposed by Aizen.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nah, I would say that is a given.

Spiritual pressure with such power it could kill others with his presence?

That kind of pure spiritual power is unrivaled IMO.

It could also mean that he didn't know how to control it at that point . It's vast though, possibly as great as Yamamoto's is, no doubt.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nah, I would say that is a given.

Spiritual pressure with such power it could kill others with his presence?

That kind of pure spiritual power is unrivaled IMO.

As far as Starrk goes, he is likely to be a Vasto Lorde. However, it is still not definitive. Yamamoto could have killed that one young lady with his spiritual pressure as she not only couldn't breath, she passed out. She was a friggin leuitenant. Regular low-level shinigami kill Hallows all the time. Knowing this, Starrk wouldn't have to have spiritual pressure even as high as Yamamoto's in order to suffocate low-level hallow's to death.

Further proof of this: Lilynette is somewhere around lieutenant level. Ukitake treated her like she was nothing. Lilynette didn't die when she split away from Starrk. Lilynette is at least a low-level menos.

Here's proof:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v39/c336/13.html

So, she's not even at a Menos' level, yet, she can stand to live around Starrk.



So, in other words, Starrk is around captain level...being able trade blows with Shunsui. However, didn't he get "the cube" treatment from Aizen, making him stronger?


Basically, we don't know if Starrk is a VL because it hasn't bee confirmed. He's certainly strong, but not nearly as strong as Yamamoto, in terms of spirit power.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Everyone in the Espada were at least Adjuchas, except for #9 as NB pointed out.


I did to Nemebro a looooong time ago in the Bleach thread. He's just a Gillian. lulz




Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It could also mean that he didn't know how to control it at that point . It's vast though, possibly as great as Yamamoto's is, no doubt.

No, it's not even close to Yamamoto's. See my previous post.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I did to Nemebro a looooong time ago in the Bleach thread. He's just a Gillian. lulz


I was only talking about this thread wise guy .


No, it's not even close to Yamamoto's. See my previous post.

It's possible that Lilynette didn't die as she was previously a part of him, hence she shared the same reiatsu...far-fetched, but a possibility. Though I'll admit, I was engaging in hyperbole.

~ Starrk seemed like he was already 'shinigamified' when Aizen met with him. It's possible the split turned him into an Arrancar.

- All this makes me wonder: If the Arrancar revert back or resemble their hollow forms when they release, are they less powerful than they were as hollows, when they are unreleased? Hollow form Ichigo is leagues above Vizard or Shinigami form. So is it possible that the Hollow side may afford more raw, 'unrefined' power than the Shinigami side?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's possible that Lilynette didn't die as she was previously a part of him, hence she shared the same reiatsu...far-fetched, but a possibility. Though I'll admit, I was engaging in hyperbole.

No no...I didn't think about that and it's fully plausible. I don't have any evidence to counter your above point and it does have evidence for it. So, it's a plausible theory, though it will never be proven....



UNLESS! And here's another theory of mine...

Ichigo pulls a Naruto (cause Ichigo has done it more than once) and befriends some of the Espada...after Orihime repairs them, of course.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
~ Starrk seemed like he was already 'shinigamified' when Aizen met with him. It's possible the split turned him into an Arrancar.

- All this makes me wonder: If the Arrancar revert back or resemble their hollow forms when they release, are they less powerful than they were as hollows, when they are unreleased? Hollow form Ichigo is leagues above Vizard or Shinigami form. So is it possible that the Hollow side may afford more raw, 'unrefined' power than the Shinigami side?

The original Hallow form of Ichigo's, though, was around his Vizard power....wasn't it? His second form was an evolution that no one had seen, yet. It's on a whole other level from anything else.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Because he acts like he's the strongest, and that just isn't true. Simply put.
He one of the strongest arrancar (Starrk and Yammy are apparently above him, but outside of having lower numbers I don't see why.)

Originally posted by King Kandy
He one of the strongest arrancar (Starrk and Yammy are apparently above him, but outside of having lower numbers I don't see why.)

I agree with this. Starrk looked more like #2 and Baranggan #1. Yammy is looking like #11 after his release.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No no...I didn't think about that and it's fully plausible. I don't have any evidence to counter your above point and it does have evidence for it. So, it's a plausible theory, though it will never be proven....



UNLESS! And here's another theory of mine...

Ichigo pulls a Naruto (cause Ichigo has done it more than once) and befriends some of the Espada...after Orihime repairs them, of course.

It's possible Grimmjow could be that Espada...

Originally posted by dadudemon
The original Hallow form of Ichigo's, though, was around his Vizard power....wasn't it? His second form was an evolution that no one had seen, yet. It's on a whole other level from anything else.

iirc, We didn't really see what that original form was capable of, apart from high speed regeneration, and the ability to supercharge (?) ceros. It's possible that the second form is an evolution akin to Ulquiorra's second release.


Vasto Lordes are supposedly more powerful than average captains. If Shinigamification gave them a huge boost, even the top level captains would have been hard-pressed with their unreleased forms, and yet we had Toshiro stalemating a released Haribel. My guess is that while unreleased, they are less powerful than they were as hollows, and while released, a little more powerful than they were as hollows. For the Vasto Lorde, the power increase is even less, except in the unique case of Ulquiorra obviously.

Originally posted by dadudemon
As far as Starrk goes, he is likely to be a Vasto Lorde. However, it is still not definitive. Yamamoto could have killed that one young lady with his spiritual pressure as she not only couldn't breath, she passed out. She was a friggin leuitenant. Regular low-level shinigami kill Hallows all the time. Knowing this, Starrk wouldn't have to have spiritual pressure even as high as Yamamoto's in order to suffocate low-level hallow's to death.

Further proof of this: Lilynette is somewhere around lieutenant level. Ukitake treated her like she was nothing. Lilynette didn't die when she split away from Starrk. Lilynette is at least a low-level menos.

Here's proof:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v39/c336/13.html

So, she's not even at a Menos' level, yet, she can stand to live around Starrk.



So, in other words, Starrk is around captain level...being able trade blows with Shunsui. However, didn't he get "the cube" treatment from Aizen, making him stronger?


Basically, we don't know if Starrk is a VL because it hasn't bee confirmed. He's certainly strong, but not nearly as strong as Yamamoto, in terms of spirit power. The difference is, Yamamoto was trying to. Starrk's mere presence was killing Hollows by the dozens, and we do not know these were normal fodder Hollows, for all we know they were Adjuchas.

Lilynette is weaker than Lieutenant level. As for why she is unaffected, well, it may have something to do with her and Starrk being the same person.

Being able to trade blows with Shunsui makes you far stronger than the average captain, he is one of the strongest in the Gotei 13. Cannot comment on the cube thing, Starrk honestly to me looked like he was always an Arrancar...So dunno.

It has not been confirmed, but he is apparently more powerful than the king of Hueco Mundo...As King Kandy said, why is anyone's guess.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with this. Starrk looked more like #2 and Baranggan #1. Yammy is looking like #11 after his release.
They are all out of order. Ulquiorra was obviously above Harribel for instance, imo. Starrk should have been really powerful since he could fire 1000s of Cero per second, but this was hampered by the fact that not only did he spend more time talking than shooting, but his accuracy was really, really bad (should have learned some sharpshooting).

clearly to Aizen, Starrk is more powerful than Barragan...

the existence of the Privaron Espada reinforces the fact that Aizen shuffles members and gives them numbers connoting rank and overall power...

this would then suggest that the more powerful hollows are outside the scope of Barragan's authority and they are clearly not subject to his rule thus relegating the title of King of Hueco Mundo as merely self-proclamation since the title itself is not indicative as being the most powerful...

which is a good thing as it gives me something to look forward to as i want to see or know who the other vasto lordes are...

maybe hitsuGAYa will be disemboweled by one this time...

Originally posted by King Kandy
They are all out of order. Ulquiorra was obviously above Harribel for instance, imo.

I would put second release Ulq as #1 (or zero, if you want to pull a Kubo). But, yes, we go from Toshiro being a below average level captain to being able to keep up with the #3 espada in released form. Some Toshiro fanboy might say "but, but, but...he knows Kido and learned a new technique in the middle of teh fightz!" Lame sauce. Harribel wasn't affected in the slightest by that "attack"...she was just delayed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Starrk should have been really powerful since he could fire 1000s of Cero per second, but this was hampered by the fact that not only did he spend more time talking than shooting, but his accuracy was really, really bad (should have learned some sharpshooting).

Think about it: The Quincy can fire even more arrows per second, and he's just a friggin' human. True that his Cero's were much more powerful...but he's also got reiryoku in far excess of Ishida. I'd also like to say that Ishida is far more accurate, to boot.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
clearly to Aizen, Starrk is more powerful than Barragan...

the existence of the Privaron Espada reinforces the fact that Aizen shuffles members and gives them numbers connoting rank and overall power...

I do not disagree.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
this would then suggest that the more powerful hollows are outside the scope of Barragan's authority and they are clearly not subject to his rule thus relegating the title of King of Hueco Mundo as merely self-proclamation since the title itself is not indicative as being the most powerful...

Incorrect on all premises.

Baranggan would WTF pwn Starrk with his retarded time power. The only counter I can see for it is putting it in baranggan's belly, unnoticed. (or head...or something like that.) That...and Aizen's stupid shikai ability.

Every Hallows was subject to his rule. It's not even definitive that Starrk was stronger than all BEFORE Aizen came along. It's wholly possible that Starrk got his assignment AFTER he got treatment with the hogyoku.

One thing we do know is this: Starrk did not display enough ability to be considered more powerful the Baranggan. There's no indiction that Starrk would be able to beat him.

One thing we do know, however, is Baranggan could not find anything to defeat or fight against in all of Hueco Mundo...that would include Starrk, BTW.

Also, the title was not self-procclaimed. I already posted scans that definitively asserts Baranggan as the King of all hueco mundo...before Aizen came along and started messing around with everyone. hehe

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
which is a good thing as it gives me something to look forward to as i want to see or know who the other vasto lordes are...

maybe hitsuGAYa will be disemboweled by one this time...

lulz

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would put second release Ulq as #1 (or zero, if you want to pull a Kubo). But, yes, we go from Toshiro being a below average level captain to being able to keep up with the #3 espada in released form. Some Toshiro fanboy might say "but, but, but...he knows Kido and learned a new technique in the middle of teh fightz!" Lame sauce. Harribel wasn't affected in the slightest by that "attack"...she was just delayed.
Even his first release seemed above Harribel (though we didn't see much of it). I mean nothing Vizard Ichigo did could hurt him whatsoever.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Think about it: The Quincy can fire even more arrows per second, and he's just a friggin' human. True that his Cero's were much more powerful...but he's also got reiryoku in far excess of Ishida. I'd also like to say that Ishida is far more accurate, to boot.
Yeah, but the big difference is that even one of those cero was capable of doing real damage to high level opponents. Whenever an Espada uses Cero, it always is very effective if not dodged. Firing thousands of those should have just reduced everyone he faced to hash.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Even his first release seemed above Harribel (though we didn't see much of it). I mean nothing Vizard Ichigo did could hurt him whatsoever.

Hmmm.

You could be right.

I'm trying to think of some logic here that would connect the dots between Harribel being slower and less durable than first release Ulq...

It's true that if no one knew of Ulq's second release, he would be the strongest Espada by far...cept for the "not so strong" Yammy. Ulq certainly has the largest and most powerful destruction feat out of anyone in Bleach, so far.


Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, but the big difference is that even one of those cero was capable of doing real damage to high level opponents. Whenever an Espada uses Cero, it always is very effective if not dodged. Firing thousands of those should have just reduced everyone he faced to hash.

Is that why he was number 1? Is it because he could pretty much lay waste to any high level opponent? So could Baranggan, though.

Still, didn't Shunsui take some of those blasts are one point?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hmmm.

You could be right.

I'm trying to think of some logic here that would connect the dots between Harribel being slower and less durable than first release Ulq...

It's true that if no one knew of Ulq's second release, he would be the strongest Espada by far...cept for the "not so strong" Yammy. Ulq certainly has the largest and most powerful destruction feat out of anyone in Bleach, so far.
Well clearly he wasn't first because nobody knew of his second release... i'm wondering why his first release wasn't getting as much credit though, it seems above Harribel and Yammy by far.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Is that why he was number 1? Is it because he could pretty much lay waste to any high level opponent? So could Baranggan, though.

Still, didn't Shunsui take some of those blasts are one point?
That would have been a good reason for him to be #1, except he did not make good use of that power... he should have been spamming ceros non-stop, instead he fired off a couple shots every minute or so that were easily dodged.

Shunsui did take some ceros, and every time they did a high amount of damage to him. Which is why if Starrk wasn't such a poor strategist (and a poor shot), he should have easily finished off Shunsui (or at least forced him into Bankai).

BTW, it's "Baraggan", not "Baranggan".

Originally posted by NemeBro
Wasn't Nnoitra Espada 8, back when the Espada were weaker though?

Also, where is this Arrancar Encyclopedia? And the ninth Espada is confirmed to be a former Gillian, just saying.

True, but thaty was "years ago" it's possible he's evolved into a VL by then. Neliel is a VL atleast.

You know i've often been curious, who do you suppose was above Neliel when she was 3?


At the end of anime episodes. you can probably youtube it

I'm wondering, is Wonderweiss the only Hogyoukou-arrancar? Starrk was became an arrancar due to the split while Baraggan was probably turned via experimentation. So did the others naturally evolve into arrancar?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
True, but thaty was "years ago" it's possible he's evolved into a VL by then. Neliel is a VL atleast.

You know i've often been curious, who do you suppose was above Neliel when she was 3?


At the end of anime episodes. you can probably youtube it

Just out of curiosity, how would an Arrancar 'evolve' into a Vasto Lorde, a hollow specific evolution?

Ulquiorra is a possibility. He seems to be the member that Aizen trusts and 'respects' the most. Baraggan and Starrk the other two possibilities?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I'm wondering, is Wonderweiss the only Hogyoukou-arrancar? Starrk was became an arrancar due to the split while Baraggan was probably turned via experimentation. So did the others naturally evolve into arrancar?



Just out of curiosity, how would an Arrancar 'evolve' into a Vasto Lorde, a hollow specific evolution?

Ulquiorra is a possibility. He seems to be the member that Aizen trusts and 'respects' the most. Baraggan and Starrk the other two possibilities?

No, Grimmjow is also, i suppose 8 & 7 would have to be too. Nnoitra cannot be because he was show to be as he looks now 'years' ago so.... The list is atleast limited espada-wise.



I'm unsure, but i've noted his weapons in the past is different to his current weapon shape-wise. I'm guessing they can't control it's shape.

Assumnig that to be true, since their weapons contain their true powers i'm only left to summerise his power changed so much it's even visible. Hence why i think he could be a VL. That would also explain how he's risen in the ranks.


Yes Ulquiorra seems like a likely candidate, as Neliel knew his name when they met. While this is inconsistent with her memory loss, she didn't seem to know the other espada. So i can only summerise she knew of him before, and for reason X she remembered about Ulquiorra.

Aizen only got the Hogyokou a few months ago, or a year at the most, so that rules out Syazel as he was an Arrancar a few years back.
Grimmjow is one of the 'oldest' Arrancar's in Aizen's army. He was the 12th Numeros iirc. Meaning only Shawlong was 'older'. I think that means that he was one of the first ones to be drafted or converted...

There is indeed a shape change. He gained another crescent on his weapon, and he did indeed become more powerful as time went by (that was one of his goals iirc), so your theory is plausible.
Though that's not what I was referring to. He could only be a Vasto Lorde if he were a Menos/Hollow. If you are talking about Vasto Lorde level power, then sure.

True say. I think she also knew Grimmjow's name? Seeing as Grimmjow was one of the oldest numeros, and presumably the most powerful for some time, I'd say that he was in the Espada. He could probably have been #2.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Baranggan would WTF pwn Starrk with his retarded time power. The only counter I can see for it is putting it in baranggan's belly, unnoticed. (or head...or something like that.) That...and Aizen's stupid shikai ability.


i never said who would win in a battle between the two, besides this could be argued vice versa anyway...

i was merely pointing out the fact that since Starrk is the Primera it would be safe to assume that he is more powerful than the Segunda...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Every Hallows was subject to his rule. It's not even definitive that Starrk was stronger than all BEFORE Aizen came along. It's wholly possible that Starrk got his assignment AFTER he got treatment with the hogyoku.

Starrk was already very powerful even before Aizen met him, so powerful it made him lonely since hollows died by merely being in his presence...

looking back, another difference between the top two Espadas could be seen on how they were recruited...

Barragan was forced to comply with Aizen after he decimated his so called army in a single move...

Starrk joining Aizen was more his choice as he was seeking companions that time, the only prerequisite that they be strong enough to survive being with him, there was no coercion at all on the part of Aizen...

That's because Baraggan was arrogant and belligerent, and didn't like Aizen. Starrk wanted companionship. The way they were recruited is no indication of their power, only their personalities.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
No, Grimmjow is also, i suppose 8 & 7 would have to be too. Nnoitra cannot be because he was show to be as he looks now 'years' ago so.... The list is atleast limited espada-wise.



I'm unsure, but i've noted his weapons in the past is different to his current weapon shape-wise. I'm guessing they can't control it's shape.

Assumnig that to be true, since their weapons contain their true powers i'm only left to summerise his power changed so much it's even visible. Hence why i think he could be a VL. That would also explain how he's risen in the ranks.


Yes Ulquiorra seems like a likely candidate, as Neliel knew his name when they met. While this is inconsistent with her memory loss, she didn't seem to know the other espada. So i can only summerise she knew of him before, and for reason X she remembered about Ulquiorra. Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Aizen only got the Hogyokou a few months ago, or a year at the most, so that rules out Syazel as he was an Arrancar a few years back.
Grimmjow is one of the 'oldest' Arrancar's in Aizen's army. He was the 12th Numeros iirc. Meaning only Shawlong was 'older'. I think that means that he was one of the first ones to be drafted or converted...

There is indeed a shape change. He gained another crescent on his weapon, and he did indeed become more powerful as time went by (that was one of his goals iirc), so your theory is plausible.
Though that's not what I was referring to. He could only be a Vasto Lorde if he were a Menos/Hollow. If you are talking about Vasto Lorde level power, then sure.

True say. I think she also knew Grimmjow's name? Seeing as Grimmjow was one of the oldest numeros, and presumably the most powerful for some time, I'd say that he was in the Espada. He could probably have been #2.

Damn post-at-the-bottom-of-the-page situation.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's because Baraggan was arrogant and belligerent, and didn't like Aizen. Starrk wanted companionship. The way they were recruited is no indication of their power, only their personalities.

i agree...

i still think that Starrk's reasons for entering the Espada is still a testament to his power...

I guess because he was killing all other Hollows... we don't know how strong they were though, but they could not have been Vasto Lordes, and probably weren't Adjuchas either because then his pressure would have killed the weaker shinigami during his battle. I'm inclined to think they weren't menos at all and were just some no-name hollows since Lilynette is apparently weaker than a Gillian.

Still a good feat to his credit, mind you. But no reason to think Hollows like Baraggan were totally outclassed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I guess because he was killing all other Hollows... we don't know how strong they were though, but they could not have been Vasto Lordes, and probably weren't Adjuchas either because then his pressure would have killed the weaker shinigami during his battle. I'm inclined to think they weren't menos at all and were just some no-name hollows since Lilynette is apparently weaker than a Gillian.

Still a good feat to his credit, mind you. But no reason to think Hollows like Baraggan were totally outclassed.

of course...

i just think it's badass to kill hollows, fodder or not, with your mere presence, like the paladin's aura in diablo 2...

Originally posted by King Kandy
I guess because he was killing all other Hollows... we don't know how strong they were though, but they could not have been Vasto Lordes, and probably weren't Adjuchas either because then his pressure would have killed the weaker shinigami during his battle. I'm inclined to think they weren't menos at all and were just some no-name hollows since Lilynette is apparently weaker than a Gillian.

Still a good feat to his credit, mind you. But no reason to think Hollows like Baraggan were totally outclassed.

It's entirely up to speculation at this point. So we can speculate that Starrk didn't know how to properly control his reiatsu at that point, but did learn how to do so some time after joining Aizen. Lilynette never died probably due to the fact that she was his Zanpakutou in a manner of speaking.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
True, but thaty was "years ago" it's possible he's evolved into a VL by then. Neliel is a VL atleast.

You know i've often been curious, who do you suppose was above Neliel when she was 3?


At the end of anime episodes. you can probably youtube it I thought only a pure Hollow could "evolve?" Why is Nel? She has not shown to be anywhere near as powerful as Ulquiorra, Barragan, or Starrk, and was only the third Espada of a weaker generation, where she was only a little stronger than current Nnoitra.

Well assuming Starrk and Barragan were around back then, they would definately be above her. Nel as well. Maybe Halibel, though I remain unimpressed by her.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I thought only a pure Hollow could "evolve?" Why is Nel? She has not shown to be anywhere near as powerful as Ulquiorra, Barragan, or Starrk, and was only the third Espada of a weaker generation, where she was only a little stronger than current Nnoitra.

Well assuming Starrk and Barragan were around back then, they would definately be above her. Nel as well. Maybe Halibel, though I remain unimpressed by her.

(I assume EA is referring to power level when she says VL, as there is no way an Arrancar can become a VL, that's like an impossible devolution in status, going from an Arrancar to Hollow)

EA believes that Nnoitra gained VL level power. As pre-child Nel was stronger than current Nnoitra, logically, she should have at least VL-level power.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I guess because he was killing all other Hollows... we don't know how strong they were though, but they could not have been Vasto Lordes, and probably weren't Adjuchas either because then his pressure would have killed the weaker shinigami during his battle. I'm inclined to think they weren't menos at all and were just some no-name hollows since Lilynette is apparently weaker than a Gillian.

Still a good feat to his credit, mind you. But no reason to think Hollows like Baraggan were totally outclassed.

You are correct. I pointed this out earlier. Lilynette was weaker than a Gillian...yet, she didn't die.

So, we know that the hollows he was killing were all very low level hollows.

She was his 'zanpakutou' though.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
(I assume EA is referring to power level when she says VL, as there is no way an Arrancar can become a VL, that's like an impossible devolution in status, going from an Arrancar to Hollow)

EA believes that Nnoitra gained VL level power. As pre-child Nel was stronger than current Nnoitra, logically, she should have at least VL-level power. That is under the assumption Nnoitra has VL power, or near it, he is vastly inferior to Ulquiorra, Starrk, and Barragan.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I thought only a pure Hollow could "evolve?" Why is Nel? She has not shown to be anywhere near as powerful as Ulquiorra, Barragan, or Starrk, and was only the third Espada of a weaker generation, where she was only a little stronger than current Nnoitra.

Well assuming Starrk and Barragan were around back then, they would definately be above her. Nel as well. Maybe Halibel, though I remain unimpressed by her.

Well what you said truly is why i suspect Nel is a VL.

Why else would Aizen send her looking for VL's if she was incapable of capturing one, or being too weak to reason with one?


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
(I assume EA is referring to power level when she says VL, as there is no way an Arrancar can become a VL, that's like an impossible devolution in status, going from an Arrancar to Hollow)

EA believes that Nnoitra gained VL level power. As pre-child Nel was stronger than current Nnoitra, logically, she should have at least VL-level power.

(Pretty much)


Originally posted by NemeBro
That is under the assumption Nnoitra has VL power, or near it, he is vastly inferior to Ulquiorra, Starrk, and Barragan.

Well as i said, i look at it like this:



Originally posted by EvilAngel
Nnoitra only fought Kenpachi in a physical blade battle, in which Kenpachi is well beyond the average captain.




Anyone else proud of how well we've derailed this thread?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Well what you said truly is why i suspect Nel is a VL.

Why else would Aizen send her looking for VL's if she was incapable of capturing one, or being too weak to reason with one?

Well as i said, i look at it like this:

Anyone else proud of how well we've derailed this thread? 1. Ah, that is true, but you must consider that she was already an Arrancar by then, increasing her power, she could have merely been an Adjuchas, but after being powered was of a Vasto Lorde level, which I do not doubt.

2. Nnoitra is a physical combatant, that is his specialty as well.

3. I have made thread derailment an art form hun, you know that. 131

Originally posted by NemeBro
That is under the assumption Nnoitra has VL power, or near it, he is vastly inferior to Ulquiorra, Starrk, and Barragan.

The way I see it, Nnoitra has enough power to qualify as a VL (in power), such that he is at least a low-level 'VL'.

The other three you mentioned are leagues beyond any of the other Arrancar we've seen. High level VL's if you will.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Anyone else proud of how well we've derailed this thread?
I blame you both.

Grimmjow wins! shifty He's much cooler than that stuck-up pretty-boy.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Ah, that is true, but you must consider that she was already an Arrancar by then, increasing her power, she could have merely been an Adjuchas, but after being powered was of a Vasto Lorde level, which I do not doubt.

2. Nnoitra is a physical combatant, that is his specialty as well.

3. I have made thread derailment an art form hun, you know that. 131

1. Hmmm, i see, but she's still of VL power level, even supposing she previously was not one. Either way, i gather you agree with my point.

2. True, but so are most current top bleach characters (?)

3. That you may have, but between us, are are making it a sport! shock


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Grimmjow wins! shifty no2

Originally posted by EvilAngel
1. Hmmm, i see, but she's still of VL power level, even supposing she previously was not one. Either way, i gather you agree with my point.

2. True, but so are most current top bleach characters (?)

3. That you may have, but between us, are are making it a sport! shock


no2

...I even stated why (edited).
Personal opinion, woman. It's the core of our debates, and it's mostly why we all disagree at times.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
...I even stated why (edited).
Personal opinion, woman. It's the core of our debates, and it's mostly why we all disagree at times.

Your reason is wrong on the grounds it sucks!

Byakuya wins because his sword turns pinks..... blatantly a winning factor.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Your reason is wrong on the grounds it sucks!

Byakuya wins because his sword turns pinks..... blatantly a winning factor.

You're wrong there m'lady.
Grimmjow's is blue I might add. Which is as much WIN as pink. So Blue's WIN cancels out Pinks' WIN, which leaves just kewlness. Ergo, Grimmjow wins!

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You're wrong there m'lady.
Grimmjow's is blue I might add. Which is as much WIN as pink. So Blue's WIN cancels out Pinks' WIN, which leaves just kewlness. Ergo, Grimmjow wins!

Omigosh, using maths on me. Sneaky... glare

Nemebro! I need a mathimatician!!

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Omigosh, using maths on me. Sneaky... glare

Nemebro! I need a mathimatician!!

So you know it's da truf .


Bros before hoes fox...not that I'm calling you a hoeno2...though since it's you, it will be hoe before bro. I need to rethink my strategy mmm

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
So you know it's da truf .


Bros before hoes fox...not that I'm calling you a hoeno2...though since it's you, it will be hoe before bro. I need to rethink my strategy mmm

No! It's not teh truf! Don't be silly!


Of course i'm not a garden tool you silly person!

Come on Nemebro, are you going to turn down this cute face? *points to avatar* Are you that heartless??

Originally posted by EvilAngel
No! It's not teh truf! Don't be silly!


Of course i'm not a garden tool you silly person!

Come on Nemebro, are you going to turn down this cute face? *points to avatar* Are you that heartless??

Nooooooooooo, u lie. lie = wrong. I say da truf. truf = ryte. I'm ryte, you're wrong and you're wrong, I'm ryte.

Wait...You're not shock?

Come on Nemebro, don't be a sucker. Be a man, do teh right thing. Have some willpowah.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nooooooooooo, u lie. lie = wrong. I say da truf. truf = ryte. I'm ryte, you're wrong and you're wrong, I'm ryte.

Wait...You're not shock?

Come on Nemebro, don't be a sucker. Be a man, do teh right thing. Have some willpowah.

No, ur face okay. I'm ryte cuz i say so.


It seems not, though......maybe...... i have always been good with flowers........


Yeah, have some willpower. Oppose him! defend my honor! and all that jazz

Originally posted by EvilAngel
No, ur face okay. I'm ryte cuz i say so.


It seems not, though......maybe...... i have always been good with flowers........


Yeah, have some willpower. Oppose him! defend my honor! and all that jazz

ur reason for being ryte is wrong coz it sucks!!!

I thought so. Men are irresistibly drawn to hoes that are good with flowers. Yet anotha instance where I am ryte, and u noe eet.

You lost your honour the day you lied, wench*!

*Female servant, not the other meaning.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Your reason is wrong on the grounds it sucks!

Byakuya wins because his sword turns pinks..... blatantly a winning factor.

No, that's a reason for explaining why he has sea-shells in his hair....and why he likes man on man buttsex.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You're wrong there m'lady.
Grimmjow's is blue I might add. Which is as much WIN as pink. So Blue's WIN cancels out Pinks' WIN, which leaves just kewlness. Ergo, Grimmjow wins!


Originally posted by EvilAngel
Omigosh, using maths on me. Sneaky... glare

Nemebro! I need a mathimatician!!




WTF?

Those two posts are made of pure win.





Also, the read has been dethrailed.