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This thread is coming from a fun argument I'm currently having with a few friends, let us know your opinion.



John Preston from the movie Equilibrium. He is armed with his automatic pistols with several reload clips for each, as well as his sword.

vs

Against Neo from the movie The Matrix. He will be armed with all the weapons he had during the lobby shootout.
To clarify this is Neo before he became the one.



The setting will be one of the scenario's in the movie Gamer. Including the moving vehicles and pedestrians.

H2H: Neo
Gunfight: Preston

Originally posted by Darth Martin
H2H: Neo
Gunfight: Preston

Neo dodges bullets.

Periodically, yes, but he eventually can be overwhelmed. Preston didn't seem to have that problem. Neo lost his balance and would've been killed had it not been for Trinity.

What about Lobby firefight?

What about it?

Hmmm.

Good match up.


It's hard to call, really.

Neo is quite uber. He's stronger than Preston. He's more durable than Preston. Preston is more intelligent. Preston is faster. Neo has the best all around skills but Preston is better with guns.


Well, damn. Even after Neo becomes the one, his H2H skill is about he same as Preston's....cept Neo gets uber strength and endurance to go with it. However, Preston gets his ass handed to him by Neo, H2H, with any version of Neo(after Neo learns all of that stuff, of course.)



If it's in the lobby and its a gun fight and Trinity ain't around to kiss Neo back to life, Preston, 99 out of 100 times.

Preston is faster than Neo?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
What about it?



Preston is just a master of a specific art. Neo dodges bullets naturally and is a master of every martial art as well as knowing everything there is to know about firearms and shooting.

Neo, before he became The One? I'd say Preston takes him 8/10.

Bear in mind that if Gun Kata was a real martial art then Neo would also know it (as he's programmed with the knowledge of all martial arts).

Preston's understanding of Gun Kata would also be pretty useless as I'm sure Neo wouldn't conform to any statistical analysis.

So hand-to-hand...Neo.
Guns....Neo.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
is a master of every martial art Is this why his entire fighting arsenal consists of Wu Shu?

What he displayed holds far more credibility than what he allegedly knows.

Originally posted by jaden101
Bear in mind that if Gun Kata was a real martial art then Neo would also know it (as he's programmed with the knowledge of all martial arts).

Different universes, bro. As fact, Gun Kata didn't exist in Neo's universe. Keep in mind, you can't give abilities to characters that are not in the films.

Originally posted by jaden101
Preston's understanding of Gun Kata would also be pretty useless as I'm sure Neo wouldn't conform to any statistical analysis.

Incorrect. As fact, Neo used a just a select few martial arts in the film. The list is only like, 3 deep.

Originally posted by jaden101
So hand-to-hand...Neo.
Guns....Neo.

Incorrect premises to conclude the latter. However, the former's conclusion is sound.

Unfortunately a curbstomp for Neo.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Different universes, bro. As fact, Gun Kata didn't exist in Neo's universe. Keep in mind, you can't give abilities to characters that are not in the films.

Incorrect. As fact, Neo used a just a select few martial arts in the film. The list is only like, 3 deep.

Incorrect premises to conclude the latter. However, the former's conclusion is sound.

For the purposes of the fight the characters obviously have to be in the same "universe" and one of Neo's onscreen feats is almost instantly learning any martial arts while jacked in. If his ability to learn is similar to Trinity's then it wouldn't just be martial arts.

Regardless of what he displays, he adapts to his opponent. Clearly shown in reloaded against the "upgrades".

What he uses in the film can also be a matter of choreography because it looks good. Doesn't mean that he wouldn't use them if needed in a hypothetical fight.

Regardless...He still wins.

Originally posted by jaden101
For the purposes of the fight the characters obviously have to be in the same "universe" and one of Neo's onscreen feats is almost instantly learning any martial arts while jacked in. If his ability to learn is similar to Trinity's then it wouldn't just be martial arts.


Actually, no, they meat in a third universe that allows each character to carry over with them their full abilities, ungimped, WITHOUT giving them abilities they didn't have, such as Gun Kata.

Originally posted by jaden101
Regardless of what he displays, he adapts to his opponent. Clearly shown in reloaded against the "upgrades".

I'm not sure what your point is because Neo didn't have to adapt at all against the upgrades. Hell, he had a tougher time against the Frenchmen's henchmen. (Yes, I did that on purpose.)

Originally posted by jaden101
What he uses in the film can also be a matter of choreography because it looks good. Doesn't mean that he wouldn't use them if needed in a hypothetical fight.

That's not the point you made and that's not a response to my response to the point you made.

Originally posted by jaden101
Regardless...He still wins.

H2H, yes, Neo does.

Originally posted by dadudemon


I'm not sure what your point is because Neo didn't have to adapt at all against the upgrades. Hell, he had a tougher time against the Frenchmen's henchmen. (Yes, I did that on purpose.)

H2H, yes, Neo does.


He did have to adapt to the upgrades as his initial attack was blocked...Hence he said "hmm?...upgrades" and changed his attack strategy.



It's an explanation as to why you only see limited martial arts techniques used. Obviously Keanu Reeves couldn't actually learn every martial art in the world. So they trained him to a small degree in some and choreographed them in. They do, however, show that the character of Neo is supposed to be programmed with every martial art known. Thus his character can use them in a hypothetical fight regardless of whether he used them in the matrix movies.

Originally posted by jaden101
He did have to adapt to the upgrades as his initial attack was blocked...Hence he said "hmm?...upgrades" and changed his attack strategy.

Where's your evidence of this?

Do you have definitive proof that he changed the angle of attacks/martial art style/speed of attacks/stance, etc.? (Edit - and you can't just post a vid and say that's proof. You must analyze the vid and prove, with past showings, that he adjusts his technique.)

You can't make claims like that without backing them up.

My theory: He didn't do anything different. He just kept on fighting.



Originally posted by jaden101
It's an explanation as to why you only see limited martial arts techniques used. Obviously Keanu Reeves couldn't actually learn every martial art in the world. So they trained him to a small degree in some and choreographed them in. They do, however, show that the character of Neo is supposed to be programmed with every martial art known. Thus his character can use them in a hypothetical fight regardless of whether he used them in the matrix movies.

I'm glad you made this point.

Now, show me a martial art that uses guns and now prove, with a canon source, that Neo knows that technique. (The Matrix has canon sources, I believe.) On top of this, you have to convincingly prove that Gun Kata is useless against that technique.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Where's your evidence of this?

Do you have definitive proof that he changed the angle of attacks/martial art style/speed of attacks/stance, etc.? (Edit - and you can't just post a vid and say that's proof. You must analyze the vid and prove, with past showings, that he adjusts his technique.)

You can't make claims like that without backing them up.

My theory: He didn't do anything different. He just kept on fighting.



The proof is exactly what i've already posted. He tried his previous technique that worked against Smith in M1 and it was blocked. It was a stationary stance, blocking with one hand and then attempting to counter with a single punch. It didn't work. He then completely changed his attack approach.

So clearly your theory is a load of shite.

Odd that you claim he didn't do anything different...But don't back it up...yet ask me to.



He doesn't have to know a martial art that involves guns. He just has to know one that counters gun attacks.

Krav Maga is a technique that has specific training moves to defend against gun attacks.

Why would I have to prove that Gun Kata was useless from a martial arts pov? I stated that Neo would likely not fall into the statistical analysis that GK employes to counter enemies. This is because Neo doesn't fall into statistical averages in terms of strength, speed, h2h or gun knowledge.

Although not shown on screen, we can presume as highly likely that Neo's natural abilities with guns weren't particularly good so any training that he would have had in gun use would be programmed similar to his martial arts. In that respect then we can also presume that it's to an exceptionally high calibre. Given his showing against trained SWAT teams this is evident.

You also missed my last point. I was countering the idea that he only used a small amount of martial arts techniques in the movie and thus he can only use those types. This is nonsense. It's quite clearly shown in the movies, through the scene where he's jacked in and Tank calls him "a machine" that he is being programmed with far more than the techniques he shows during fights...Thus these skills are applicable to his character in a hypothetical fight.

I'm not sure but I even think that the aformentioned Krav Maga is one of those that is actually shown on the computer screen. I'd need to check again though.

Originally posted by jaden101

Regardless of what he displays, he adapts to his opponent. Clearly shown in reloaded against the "upgrades".


Originally posted by jaden101
He did have to adapt to the upgrades as his initial attack was blocked...Hence he said "hmm?...upgrades" and changed his attack strategy.


Just to add to this...


"Good! Adaptation, improvisation...but your weakness, is not your technique."

- Morpheus to Neo during Dojo Fight.

There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.

Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.

Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.

Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.


The fight choreography chosen for the actual film and the abilities that the character in the film possess are two entirely different things. For all intent and purposes, Neo is fluent in every martial art known to man, or at least every documented martial art. Neo has the ability to download any and all recorded knowledge in the matrix. It was never even slightly mentioned what type of martial art Neo preferred.

****ing Matrix threads haermm

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
****ing Matrix threads haermm


I think matrix and Jedi threads should be banned

Nah, just Matrix.

Think about it...,when does a Jedi ever lose when he/she is not fighting another Jedi or sith? Then you have the people that always want to take their powers away and then there are the people who can't get over the fact that the jedi in this forum don't have their extended universe feats.

Just like the Jedi, Neo always wins unless he's taken out of the Matrix, yet every thread always has him taken out of the Matrix.

Well, not many Jedi threads out there anyway.

Originally posted by jaden101
The proof is exactly what i've already posted. He tried his previous technique that worked against Smith in M1 and it was blocked. It was a stationary stance, blocking with one hand and then attempting to counter with a single punch. It didn't work. He then completely changed his attack approach.

You mean he started using two hands, right?

And, you still haven't proven anything. All you've proven is that he started trying harder.

Originally posted by jaden101
So clearly your theory is a load of shite.

Wo ho ho ho.

It is you with the theories, mate. I'm just asking you to prove your theory.

Here's an example of what you SHOULD have responded with:

"Neo at first was using a reserved form of Kai Li Fo (not true at all, but this is an example). This is evidences by his hand placement above his right shoulder, in the air, and his right foot turned about 45 degrees clockwise towards his opponenets (not true at all, but this is an example). After he blocked a few times, he adjusted his stance to that of a more southern style Kung Fu. His left arm appeared to be placed and moved characteristic of Do Pi Kung Fu style (which is a combination of many other styles). This is evidenced by how he rotates his fist at 1:34 in the video and connects at the lower left portion of the agent's left breast and he quickly follows it up with a right heel to the back of the thigh on the other agent. When he recovers from a strike at 1:45, he uses a recovery technique characteristic of Hung Ga and quickly counters with a strong bridge hand technique."


Of course, none of that is true and it is way off. However, that is just a LIGHT example of what YOU have to prove. You can't make outlandish "never before stated as being canon" claims and expect them to fly....especially to an almost rabid matrix fanboy like myself.

Originally posted by jaden101
Odd that you claim he didn't do anything different...But don't back it up...yet ask me to.

No, I would like to change my position as I wasn't the most correct with my statement: all he did was try harder.

That's really what my theory is. I can't look up youtube vids but, I can say this: he started using both hands and moving about faster. In other words, he started trying harder. That's my theory. I've backed it up.



Originally posted by jaden101
He doesn't have to know a martial art that involves guns. He just has to know one that counters gun attacks.

The first sentence contradicst the second.

Originally posted by jaden101
Krav Maga is a technique that has specific training moves to defend against gun attacks.

Great. Now prove that Neo used that technique BEFORE becoming the one and you have a point.

Originally posted by jaden101
Why would I have to prove that Gun Kata was useless from a martial arts pov?

I hate it when you do this.



You made this claim. Therefore, you have prove it. You can't make baseless claims and use them as arguing points.

Originally posted by jaden101
I stated that Neo would likely not fall into the statistical analysis that GK employes to counter enemies. This is because Neo doesn't fall into statistical averages in terms of strength, speed, h2h or gun knowledge.

Speed, yes. Unless you're referring to flying, he fights at human speed. (One of my complaints about "the one" fighting at human speed. I know, lame complaint, but if he's The One, he should fight at superhuman speeds. I understand that a human has to actually do the fight scenes...so therein lies the explanation.)

Also, that's not how Gun Kata works at all. "Statisitical averages" do not come from strength, H2H, or gun knowledge when Gun Kata is used. It comes from the statistical averages of bullets (as projectiles) being fired at the cleric from various locations and an employment of trigonometry, observation, and adaptation, on the fly, during a gun fight.

Originally posted by jaden101
Although not shown on screen, we can presume as highly likely that Neo's natural abilities with guns weren't particularly good so any training that he would have had in gun use would be programmed similar to his martial arts. In that respect then we can also presume that it's to an exceptionally high calibre. Given his showing against trained SWAT teams this is evident.

Follow this logic:

1. John Preston leveled many many clerics, who were all trained in Gun Kata, with extreme speed.

2. Neo took much longer to kill several "SWAT" team people WITH Trinity's help.

3. Neo missed quite a few times.

4. The SWAT team had extremely shitty aiming. Neo would run between 2 pillars and bullets would hit the right one and as Neo passed through the pillars, he would go unscathed and then, the SWAT team started shooting the next pillar. Yet, Neo was a larger targer than he pillars. The SWAT team greatly "sucked" compared to characters Preston took out with extreme prejudice.

5. His gun prowess is not anywhere even remotely close to Preston's when it comes to using guns. Presong would have leveled that room full of shitty aiming SWAT team members, by himself, in a much shorter time frame.



There is no debate, whatsoever, about who would win in a gun fight between Pre-The One Neo and John Preston.

Originally posted by jaden101
You also missed my last point.

No, I didn't miss your last point. I actually told you to use something less "non sequitor" to actually make a previous point. I prefer it if arguments are jam-packed with strawman arguments. If you want to add other items in addition to existing arguments, that's cool and I even welcome it. But, they can't raondomly be assigned as counters or supporting evidence for something else almost completely unrelated.

Originally posted by jaden101
I was countering the idea that he only used a small amount of martial arts techniques in the movie and thus he can only use those types.

Point to the portion in my post that he can only use the limited number of martial arts seen in the movies, please?

I hate to come off rude to my homie, but I think you missed my point.

I don't want to patronize you so I'll ask you this: do you want me to show you where your disconnect is? If you want to just read back over it and figure it out, that's fine to. (It will save me time if you do. : ( )

Originally posted by jaden101
This is nonsense. It's quite clearly shown in the movies, through the scene where he's jacked in and Tank calls him "a machine" that he is being programmed with far more than the techniques he shows during fights...Thus these skills are applicable to his character in a hypothetical fight.

Incorrect starting point which has lead to a misplaced conclusory statement.

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm not sure but I even think that the aformentioned Krav Maga is one of those that is actually shown on the computer screen. I'd need to check again though.

It wasn't.

that's because we've already gone through them all....,and the Jedi won

Voldemort or Dumbledore would pwn 99% of the Jedi one on one.

Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.

Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character.

This is the most intelligent post in the thread.


I remember reading somewhere that Neo and the others used a select few techniques because they are the most effective. (Outside the movie, it's cause it looks good.)

Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.

Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.

We should go on what is known about his character. We know he's programmed with far more than Wu Shu..Thus it's applicable to any fight that he can use more than Wu Shu. Your standpoint is similar to arguing that because we don't see him do a particular move (even if it's from Wu Shu) that he can't do it in any hypothetical fight...Which is an utterly nonsensical argument.




Already did.





Now you're just delving into the ridiculous to try and start an argument.




No you've not. You've not proved that his static defence is from the same style as the rest of the fight...That's the burden of proof you're asking me so why not apply it to yourself?





Please keep any talk of "canon" to the sad discussions in the SW forums.



No it doesn't...For the example I've already given.



Because he was programmed in all martial arts before becoming the one.



He fights at superhuman speeds in the dojo scene against Morpheus (although it's only briefly) but yes, I agree that it's an anomaly. Although it'd be interesting if they showed it as relative. Meaning that to Neo fighting Smith to then it seemed at human speed but to a human observer it was just a blur (that would've been a good way to emphasis superhuman speed...similar to the film "the one" although that showing everything except Jet Li slowed down)



I don't think the people he fights when they discover the dogs in his car or the people in the lobby near the end are Clerics. Is it even made clear the start of the sword scenes are against Clerics?



A substantial part of the lobby fight was slowed down.



As did Preston. Watch the scene where he shoots one of the guys against the pillar...Bullet holes appear all around the guy which are clearly missing him.




Is this not what you're implying with this






Enlighten me with your infinite wisdom. Before we both lose our rag like we did in the thread about the whales.

This is also very odd..Given that we're both saying Neo wins.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Voldemort or Dumbledore would pwn 99% of the Jedi one on one.

force speed blitz, force push, saber throw

Originally posted by Placidity
Just to add to this...


"Good! Adaptation, improvisation...but your weakness, is not your technique."

- Morpheus to Neo during Dojo Fight.


Ahem...

Originally posted by Placidity
Ahem...

"....but your weakness is not your TECHNIQUE."

Singular.

Originally posted by jaden101
Already did.





Now you're just delving into the ridiculous to try and start an argument.

But you didn't. You just made more baseless statements by using just a small portion of the scene, and didn't back anything up you stated.




Originally posted by jaden101
No you've not. You've not proved that his static defence is from the same style as the rest of the fight...That's the burden of proof you're asking me so why not apply it to yourself?

Yup, I have. I'm not claiming he adapted his style by changing it. I'm not claiming that he varies up his fighting style. You are. I'm claiming he remained the same and the only difference is him fighting faster and more agressively. In fact, I'm not going to claim he's using anything but a stiff form of Wu Shu and a southern style of Kung Fu....(would you like me to find some sources for that, or did you already know that?)





Originally posted by jaden101
Please keep any talk of "canon" to the sad discussions in the SW forums.

Unfortunately, there is canon and non-canon for the Matrix universe. Obviously, Wachowski Bros. material is top canon with direct writers/project developers being canon unless it contradicts the Bros. From there, it gets a little fuzzy.



Originally posted by jaden101
No it doesn't...For the example I've already given.

Yes it does.

Read your sentence again:




He doesn't have to know martial arts that involve guns. Yet, he has to know a martial art that counters guns.

Knowing a martial art the counters guns is knowing a martial art the involves guns.


Why do you do this to me, man? weep


Originally posted by jaden101
Because he was programmed in all martial arts before becoming the one.

faceplam That's not proof. And, please show me where it's stated that he learns all martial arts? Please show me where he learned any gun martial arts?



Originally posted by jaden101
He fights at superhuman speeds in the dojo scene against Morpheus (although it's only briefly) but yes, I agree that it's an anomaly. Although it'd be interesting if they showed it as relative. Meaning that to Neo fighting Smith to then it seemed at human speed but to a human observer it was just a blur (that would've been a good way to emphasis superhuman speed...similar to the film "the one" although that showing everything except Jet Li slowed down)

Just for a split second and it doesn't occur again until he becomes the one.

This is not "The One" version we are talking about.

Originally posted by jaden101
I don't think the people he fights when they discover the dogs in his car or the people in the lobby near the end are Clerics. Is it even made clear the start of the sword scenes are against Clerics?

Every last person involved in EC-10 work is a cleric.



Originally posted by jaden101
A substantial part of the lobby fight was slowed down.

Same with Preston's. Cept, he got business taken care of much faster. And, unlike Neo, he predicted almost an entire minute into the future with his gun magazines.



Originally posted by jaden101
As did Preston. Watch the scene where he shoots one of the guys against the pillar...Bullet holes appear all around the guy which are clearly missing him.

I will. I'm under the impression that it is the dude across from the cleric.




Originally posted by jaden101
Is this not what you're implying with this

Don't try and turn this around on me. You are the one saying that Neo can vary up his techniques. Not me. I'm simply stating fact.






Originally posted by jaden101
Enlighten me with your infinite wisdom. Before we both lose our rag like we did in the thread about the whales.


1. lol

2. It's not infinite wisdom. It's just knowledge that does neither of us any good, really, besides talking about a movie we like.


3. Here it is:


You said:


Originally posted by jaden101
Preston's understanding of Gun Kata would also be pretty useless as I'm sure Neo wouldn't conform to any statistical analysis.

Which you further backed up by saying:

Originally posted by jaden101
Regardless of what he displays, he adapts to his opponent. Clearly shown in reloaded against the "upgrades"

And further solidified by this statement of yours:

Originally posted by jaden101
I was countering the idea that he only used a small amount of martial arts techniques in the movie and thus he can only use those types. This is nonsense.


So, you're claiming that Neo would use multiple martial art techniques and this would somehow throw Preston off.

So, I argued this:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Neo used a just a select few martial arts in the film. The list is only like, 3 deep.

Meaning, despite all of his "learning" only 2 or 3 were deemed useful for all three films, by Neo. You said he would vary it up when you have 0 evidence for this and, in fact, the only evidence is only for Neo sticking to 2 or 3 techniques, and, on top of that, using very stiff forms of those techniques.

No where at any point did I claim that he can only use those 2 or 3. Just that those are the only ones he uses.

Going by this, he will use those techniques against Preston, 100% for sure. Since he didn't deviate, no matter what, from those techniques, a claim that he would use something else is actually baseless. All evidence points to him NOT using other techniques.

"Technique" in the singular does not necessarily mean, in this context, that he's only using one style of martial art.

His fighting technique may be to use multiple styles. Did you think of that?

Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.

Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.

You can adapt by changing styles, though.

-AC

Originally posted by dadudemon
"....but your weakness is not your TECHNIQUE."

Singular.

What an amazing reply. Didn't care to address the first part of that quote ay.

AC said it for me.

Just to confirm the terms of the vs. Neo does not know the Gun Kata.
Otherwise it's a cleric vs a cleric with a buttload of other skills and abilities too. Which is spite.

Is it not spite to take Neo out of the Matrix?

You know, where he exists and has his powers? Because out of it, he's not Neo, and in it Preston is finished.

Like others have said, and I said originally, Matrix threads are silly.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Is it not spite to take Neo out of the Matrix?

You know, where he exists and has his powers? Because out of it, he's not Neo, and in it Preston is finished.

Like others have said, and I said originally, Matrix threads are silly.

-AC

I do not understand, i think.

Neo vs John implies it is Neo, Thomas Anderson's name within the Matrix. Therefor this fight is supposed to take place in the matrix.

If it's your opinion that Neo demolishes John then so be it. That is your opinion.

Concerning Matrix fights:

If you recall the new penultimate "Golden Rule" I have recently instated into the MVF Rules Thread, we are to go by what is seen onscreen ONLY.

Neo did not rewrite the Matrix in the movies. He did not show us that he is God while in the Matrix, else he would have just smited Agent Smith and been done with his shenanigans.

Neo has mega kung fu skills, super speed, flight, strength, and some level of precog, IIRC, and nothing more. Period. There will be no more of this "implied skills and abilities" shit when the matches are Matrix characters.

It wasn't on screen? It's bunked.

Still, it's my opinion that these skills are MORE than enough to trump Preston.

Originally posted by Impediment
Concerning Matrix fights:

If you recall the new penultimate "Golden Rule" I have recently instated into the MVF Rules Thread, we are to go by what is seen onscreen ONLY.

Neo did not rewrite the Matrix in the movies. He did not show us that he is God while in the Matrix, else he would have just smited Agent Smith and been done with his shenanigans.

Neo has mega kung fu skills, super speed, flight, strength, and some level of precog, IIRC, and nothing more. Period. There will be no more of this "implied skills and abilities" shit when the matches are Matrix characters.

It wasn't on screen? It's bunked.

Still, it's my opinion that these skills are MORE than enough to trump Preston.




aaaaaaaannnnd THAT'S why you're the mod here.


Very nicely put.

*stops swinging from Imp's nuts*


K. I'm done.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Technique" in the singular does not necessarily mean, in this context, that he's only using one style of martial art.

His fighting technique may be to use multiple styles. Did you think of that?

Yup. Sure did. So did the fight coreographers. It was a stiffened version of Wu Shu...for Neo, that is.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can adapt by changing styles, though.

-AC

I agree. That's just not what was done.

Originally posted by Placidity
What an amazing reply. Didn't care to address the first part of that quote ay.

AC said it for me.

I don't see what the first part of the quote has to do with the actual point being dicsussed. I could be missing something, but, I thought the point was to show that Neo adapted by using other techniques, as Jaden was implying of which you posted around the time he was making statements like that. (Right after him, to be exact.)


If that's not what you meant, then I misunderstood. My fault. If you meant that he adapts his Wu Shu/Kung Fu to the current task at hand, I agree.

For Morpheus, he just got faster.


For the ugpraded agents, he got faster and more agressive.

That is most definitely adapting.

Originally posted by Impediment
Neo did not rewrite the Matrix in the movies. He did not show us that he is God while in the Matrix, else he would have just smited Agent Smith and been done with his shenanigans.


Preston cuts off Preston's face, Neo uses his power to come back to life (as seen on screen) as The One and wrecks Preston, orally, anally and vaginally (he tears one with his uber penis).

I win the thread, using screen-feats. Thread can be closed now.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yup. Sure did. So did the fight coreographers. It was a stiffened version of Wu Shu...for Neo, that is.


Actually it wasn't just 'Wu Shu'. He definitely had moves that were used in Karate, TKD, and Judo. At least those were the ones that were obvious to me. Wu Shu itself is not a particular martial art. There are many forms which are constitute different martial arts in their own right. He changes between these as seen with his different stances.

Pretty sure when he said: *makes stupid face* "Whoa, I know Kung Fu", it's then shown for a bit him doing some traditional Kung Fu forms, for a wee bit. Been years since I've watched it though.

Originally posted by Placidity
Actually it wasn't just 'Wu Shu'. He definitely had moves that were used in Karate, TKD, and Judo. At least those were the ones that were obvious to me. Wu Shu itself is not a particular martial art. There are many forms which are constitute different martial arts in their own right. He changes between these as seen with his different stances. Sorry, no. It was Kung Fu and Wu Shu.

There is no debating that.

Yuen Wo Ping was the fight choreographer. Specifically, Kung Fu choreographer.
More specifically, Hong Kong Kung Fu and Wu Shu.


Here's a list of full cast and crew. Let me know if you find something in this list other that Kung Fu choreographers for the fighting choreography:


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/fullcredits


I could have skipped over something...but they are all Kung Fu choreographers from Hong Kong.



Also, a stance does not an entire martial art make.



Again, if you want to get technical, it's Hong Kong cinema Kung Fu. (Which some are calling it a discipline in its own right.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorry, no. It was Kung Fu and Wu Shu.

There is no debating that.



Um no it wasn't. The guy is a fight choreographer, you think he only knows Kung Fu/Wushu and nothing else? If thats your only proof then its pretty shit, and doesn't justify your "theres no debating that" attitude. In his dojo fight, he was CLEARLY throwing some karate punches and also some knifehand strikes along with the other stuff I said previously. The feats are there on-screen, Clearly you are wrong.

Also Wushu itself is not a martial arts, but is a colletive term for all the various Chinese martial arts which can vastly differ. So its not "just" Wushu.

I have to ask.
Why exactly are you guys debating this?


Would Neo lose in combat if it were proven he only knew skills X & Y?

In my opinion, either way; in hand to hand combat, due to Neo's enhanced attributes he would dominate John.

Originally posted by Placidity
Um no it wasn't. The guy is a fight choreographer, you think he only knows Kung Fu/Wushu and nothing else? If thats your only proof then its pretty shit, and doesn't justify your "theres no debating that" attitude. In his dojo fight, he was CLEARLY throwing some karate punches and also some knifehand strikes along with the other stuff I said previously. The feats are there on-screen, Clearly you are wrong.

Also Wushu itself is not a martial arts, but is a colletive term for all the various Chinese martial arts which can vastly differ. So its not "just" Wushu.


I told you there was no debating this. You entire argument is baseless. Sure, they do so stuff from other styles, but they didn't fight with those styles.

And, what's the point of this argument? It doesn't all of a sudden make Neo fight with many different styles, cause he didn't.

And, stop with the "Wu Shu is not a singular martial art", please. Neither is Kung Fu. Neither is Karate. Pretty much everyone here knows that. Call it Chinese Martial arts? Not really.


I'll call it what it really was: Hong Kong Kung Fu. That's a singular, martial art. Not many.



Edit - EvilAngel is correct. Your argument does nothing to change the fact the Preston goes done to Neo in a H2H fight. However, the fact that you're not only reaching and are wrong compounds the uselessness of your argument.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I told you there was no debating this. You entire argument is baseless. Sure, they do so stuff from other styles, but they didn't fight with those styles.


You seem to be missing the fact that it's shown ON SCREEN that he knows more styles than that.

This means that he can use those styles. Even without them, his H2H skills are far superior to Prestons. He is stronger, faster and more skilled. Even before he became the one he could dodge bullets and go hand to hand with an agent who is vastly more powerful than a human being. Strong enough to punch through reinforced concrete pillars.

He's also quite evidently on a level with regards to gun skills due to his showing in the lobby and roof top scenes. He also has the abilty to approach gun weilding enemies and take them out without being shot (as shown in the lobby scene)

He would destroy Preston. Who is, after all is said and done, merely a well trained human.

The only argument you can make for Preston to win is hand held weapons as Neo didn't use any in M1. Then again you could also argue that he's already been programmed with the skills for use of those weapons in M1 that he uses in Reloaded and the only thing that improved when he became the "one" is his strength and speed. This is hinted by Morpheus saying "They will never be as strong or as fast as you can be"

Again, i'll try and watch the scene when he's doing his training and see exactly what martial arts are highlighted on the screen. Then it's top level "canon" that we know he is trained in those techniques regardless of whether he used them on screen. (Although I spoke to someone today who is trained in Krav Maga and says that Neo does incorporate aspects of it into his fighting in some scenes although he never specified which)

I like John Preston, but he loses here

Here's how I see it....

Neo was pretty badass in the lobby shootout, but Preston is a master of Gun Kata. By knowing where Neo is, Preston will be able to avoid being hit, while returning fire, and we all know that Preston can conduct a symphony orchestra with his pistols.

Just for shits and giggles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(film)

Gun Kata is a fictional gun-fighting martial art discipline that is a significant part of the film. It is based upon the premise that, given the positions of the participants in a gun battle, the trajectories of fire are statistically predictable. By pure memorization of the positions, one can fire at the most likely location of an enemy without aiming at him in the traditional sense of pointing a gun at a specific target. By the same token, the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.


Also, given the fact that all Neo did was kill regular cops, and that Preston killed who were on a whole different level than those cops, yeah, Preston, with his pistols, is a sub God.

IMO, Preston's being able to predict where and when the return fire will come from is all the edge he needs.

Preston 10/10.

Originally posted by jaden101
You seem to be missing the fact that it's shown ON SCREEN that he knows more styles than that.

What's being debated is not whether or not he knows them: it's whether or not he will use them. There is no debate as to whether or not he knows tons of martial arts. We know he does.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Here's how I see it....

Neo was pretty badass in the lobby shootout, but Preston is a master of Gun Kata. By knowing where Neo is, Preston will be able to avoid being hit, while returning fire, and we all know that Preston can conduct a symphony orchestra with his pistols.

Just for shits and giggles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(film)

Gun Kata is a fictional gun-fighting martial art discipline that is a significant part of the film. It is based upon the premise that, given the positions of the participants in a gun battle, the trajectories of fire are statistically predictable. By pure memorization of the positions, one can fire at the most likely location of an enemy without aiming at him in the traditional sense of pointing a gun at a specific target. By the same token, the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.


Also, given the fact that all Neo did was kill regular cops, and that Preston killed who were on a whole different level than those cops, yeah, Preston, with his pistols, is a sub God.

IMO, Preston's being able to predict where and when the return fire will come from is all the edge he needs.

Preston 10/10.

I agree. I don't understand why people think Neo, sub "The One" has any chance against Preston in a gun shoot out. Some people are trying to give Neo abilitiies he didn't show, as well.

In a H2H fight, John would lose, thought Wouldn't you agree? Even if it were a bladed fight...who would win that?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I told you there was no debating this. You entire argument is baseless.


Right right right. He is shown on-screen to be a Mixed Martial Artist, and all you can say is "I told you there was no debating this."

Good argument.

I told you that you were wrong too. Theres no debating this.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sure, they do so stuff from other styles, but they didn't fight with those styles.


What the **** does this even mean? He is shown to be using techniques from other martial arts, and to you, in your brain, in some weird and impossible way, equates to only using Kung Fu. Are you high or trolling?

Originally posted by dadudemon


And, what's the point of this argument? It doesn't all of a sudden make Neo fight with many different styles, cause he didn't.


Um he kinda, you know, did. As shown on-screen. Theres no debating this.


Originally posted by dadudemon

And, stop with the "Wu Shu is not a singular martial art", please. Neither is Kung Fu. Neither is Karate. Pretty much everyone here knows that.


If you previously understood this, then you wouldn't have said he was limited with his styles. Apparently you knew this but still said his styles were limited, yea okay.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Call it Chinese Martial arts? Not really.


I'll call it what it really was: Hong Kong Kung Fu. That's a singular, martial art. Not many.


Do I care wtf you want to call it? He was shown using various martial arts techniques. Again On-screen evidence. Theres no debating this.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Here's how I see it....

Neo was pretty badass in the lobby shootout, but Preston is a master of Gun Kata. By knowing where Neo is, Preston will be able to avoid being hit, while returning fire, and we all know that Preston can conduct a symphony orchestra with his pistols.

Just for shits and giggles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(film)

Gun Kata is a fictional gun-fighting martial art discipline that is a significant part of the film. It is based upon the premise that, given the positions of the participants in a gun battle, the trajectories of fire are statistically predictable. By pure memorization of the positions, one can fire at the most likely location of an enemy without aiming at him in the traditional sense of pointing a gun at a specific target. By the same token, the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.


Also, given the fact that all Neo did was kill regular cops, and that Preston killed who were on a whole different level than those cops, yeah, Preston, with his pistols, is a sub God.

IMO, Preston's being able to predict where and when the return fire will come from is all the edge he needs.

Preston 10/10.

This is more or less the same as my opinion.

I think that if Neo got close, he'd demolish John, but i also thing that's unlikely. With that in mind, i feel John's more adapt at gun fights, thus i'd give it to him.

Hell, he'd trash Neo AND Trinity in one sitting.

Originally posted by Placidity
Right right right. He is shown on-screen to be a Mixed Martial Artist, and all you can say is "I told you there was no debating this."

Good argument.

I told you that you were wrong too. Theres no debating this.



What the **** does this even mean? He is shown to be using techniques from other martial arts, and to you, in your brain, in some weird and impossible way, equates to only using Kung Fu. Are you high or trolling?



Um he kinda, you know, did. As shown on-screen. Theres no debating this.




If you previously understood this, then you wouldn't have said he was limited with his styles. Apparently you knew this but still said his styles were limited, yea okay.



Do I care wtf you want to call it? He was shown using various martial arts techniques. Again On-screen evidence. Theres no debating this.



Whatever you're argument is, you win. I don't care. You continue to believe what you want, and I'll continue to believe the truth: Hong Kong Kung Fu.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
This is more or less the same as my opinion.

I think that if Neo got close, he'd demolish John, but i also thing that's unlikely. With that in mind, i feel John's more adapt at gun fights, thus i'd give it to him.

Yup. With guns. Preston.



I'm pretty sure everyone agrees except for The One fans.

Guns: Preston
H2H: Neo

Why's this still going on?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Whatever you're argument is, you win. I don't care. You continue to believe what you want, and I'll continue to believe the truth: Hong Kong Kung Fu.

I accept your concession. You can continue believing that knifehand strikes, karate punches, and typical TKD kicks are Kung Fu and I'll continue to believe the truth: Mixed Martial Arts.

Well, again i remind you i think Preston wins.

The arguement some of my (foolish!) friends where making is that even pre-the one neo, he can dodge bullets. Now, he's not going to dodge two automatic weapons, but if he plays it smart, which he did somewhat in the lobby shootout. Then he has the advantage. Sure he doesn't have the technique but the reflexes give him an advantage.... well according to them.

Personally i see their point, but i don't think it bring him up to Cleric level. Just my opinion

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Guns: Preston
H2H: Neo

Why's this still going on?

Originally posted by Placidity
I accept your concession. You can continue believing that knifehand strikes, karate punches, and typical TKD kicks are Kung Fu and I'll continue to believe the truth: Mixed Martial Arts.

I didn't read your post at all. I just don't want to argue a moot point.

And, I do concede. 100%.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Guns: Preston
H2H: Neo

Why's this still going on?

Not everyone is as smart as you are, jerk. cry

Originally posted by jaden101

Again, i'll try and watch the scene when he's doing his training and see exactly what martial arts are highlighted on the screen. Then it's top level "canon" that we know he is trained in those techniques regardless of whether he used them on screen. (Although I spoke to someone today who is trained in Krav Maga and says that Neo does incorporate aspects of it into his fighting in some scenes although he never specified which)

Haha, I just watched it.

"Jiujitsu? I'm going to learn Jiujitsu?"

- Neo

Also, on the screen, it lists the other martial arts being uploaded including:

- Kempo
- Drunken Boxing
- Tae Kwon Do
- Karate


All of which were uploaded in mere seconds. And how long was Neo jacked into the program? "Ten hours straight. He is a machine".

Originally posted by Placidity
Haha, I just watched it.

"Jiujitsu? I'm going to learn Jiujitsu?"

- Neo

Also, on the screen, it lists the other martial arts being uploaded including:

- Kempo
- Drunken Boxing
- Tae Kwon Do
- Karate


All of which were uploaded in mere seconds. And how long was Neo jacked into the program? "Ten hours straight. He is a machine".

That's almost word for word what I was about to post. Not forgetting the "I know Kung-Fu"..."Show me"

And you missed out savate. (Can't see him using that much though )