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This is something I've been thinking about lately and was just curious as to others' opinions. Suggestions are welcome.

Levels of Matter Transformation: a broad term for the ability to influence matter (and by implication, energy). The levels represent cumulative ability.

Level 1: simple/inanimate molecular rearrangement. Probably allows little more than shape-changing or repair of nonliving systems.

Level 2: complex/biomolecular rearrangement. Like the above but with more complex/living matter.

Level 3: nuclear-elemental transmutation / energy-to-matter conversion. By implication, involves control of not just electromagnetic fields but also gluons, quarks, and whatever takes place when energy "condenses" into matter.

Level 4: Planck-scale control of matter/energy. Basically this would enable effects at the most extreme conditions our laws of physics allows.

It's a complex power, unlike (eg) an energy bolt/shield. I'm just trying to bring some organization to it.

You should make a special category for tech transmutation since it's often portrayed rather oddly. For instance Molecule man was able to easily dissolve Ironman's armor, Cap's shield, Thor's hammer, and Surfer's board but at the end of the story he couldn't recreate Ironman's armor because of the complex circuitry.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You should make a special category for tech transmutation since it's often portrayed rather oddly. For instance Molecule man was able to easily dissolve Ironman's armor, Cap's shield, Thor's hammer, and Surfer's board but at the end of the story he couldn't recreate Ironman's armor because of the complex circuitry.
If he found the circuitry too complex, could he molecularly rearrange a living creature? No doubt, as with other powers in comics, there may be little consistency as to what a given character should/should not be able to do. I mean, if he could manipulate living matter, then technically Iron Man's armor should've been resurrectible (unless it's more complex than a living organism).

is your 4th level of matter manipulation along the lines of universal creation/destruction?

Originally posted by Galan007
is your 4th level of matter manipulation along the lines of universal creation/destruction? I'm not sure what the implications would be. Certainly, what you're suggesting would involve a quantitative dimension, ie, how much Character A could manipulate, as opposed to how well/intimately. Level 4 means being able to manip matter (and energy) at the smallest level of physical existence, perhaps changing string vibrations or particles' inherent mass, or maybe turning virtual matter into real matter. I would think you could pretty much do anything except locally change the laws of physics themselves.

The groupings seem needlessly obtuse. In an ideal setting, you really only need two distinctions. Level (i.e. molecular, atomic, subatomic, etc.) and scope (personal, localized, global, universal, etc.). Because calling one level 'rearrangement' and another 'transmutation' muddies things too much...it's the same process, just on a different level.

Unfortunately though, in comics you have all sorts of nutty stipulations like only working on technology, not working on organic matter, only being able to create certain elements, etc. Since there's no difference in how matter is "made" these subdivisions shouldn't exist, but they do for the sake of characters and story.

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm not sure what the implications would be. Certainly, what you're suggesting would involve a quantitative dimension, ie, how much Character A could manipulate, as opposed to how well/intimately. Level 4 means being able to manip matter (and energy) at the smallest level of physical existence, perhaps changing string vibrations or particles' inherent mass, or maybe turning virtual matter into real matter. I would think you could pretty much do anything except locally change the laws of physics themselves. i only ask because when you said "planck-scale control", the creation of a big bang via matter manipulation is the first thing i thought of.

anyhow i dig the overall concept you've gone with. don't think it will be accepted by the general population of the forum though.

Originally posted by Digi
The groupings seem needlessly obtuse. In an ideal setting, you really only need two distinctions. Level (i.e. molecular, atomic, subatomic, etc.) and scope (personal, localized, global, universal, etc.). Because calling one level 'rearrangement' and another 'transmutation' muddies things too much...it's the same process, just on a different level.Indeed. The umbrella term I used was matter transformation. In deliberately removing the 'scope' distinction, I was trying to fine-tune the transformational levels.

Unfortunately though, in comics you have all sorts of nutty stipulations like only working on technology, not working on organic matter, only being able to create certain elements, etc. Since there's no difference in how matter is "made" these subdivisions shouldn't exist, but they do for the sake of characters and story. The drama rules.

Originally posted by Galan007
anyhow i dig the overall concept you've gone with. don't think it will be accepted by the general population of the forum though. I was just wondering if it made sense to anyone else.

as far as the specified classifications...is it just limited to transmutation or does creating actual matter from nothing come into play..as the notion of virutal matter was brought up....and if then wouldnt that just branch over into the dreaded reality warping, that would just make all arguments cicular?

Originally posted by manjaro
as far as the specified classifications...is it just limited to transmutation or does creating actual matter from nothing come into play..as the notion of virutal matter was brought up....and if then wouldnt that just branch over into the dreaded reality warping, that would just make all arguments cicular? Virtual matter was a speculation.

I see reality warping as a change in frame of reference, a change taken (in the comic world) literally. Matter transformation is more where stuff happens to things, rather than affecting the reference frame.

If one day we could build transformational technologies capable of all these levels, would that be reality warping?

Originally posted by Mindship
If one day we could build transformational technologies capable of all these levels, would that be reality warping? 'reality warping' is a very blanket term. if it simply means that one has the ability to alter the matter/energy of a given variable, then would not the small scale task of changing water into wine qualify as some level of 'reality warping'?

furthermore, if i throw a piece of wood into my fire pit and allow it to completely burn, have i 'warped reality'? after all, once pyrolysis is complete, the molecular makeup of the wood has been changed into an entirely different element all together

Originally posted by Galan007
'reality warping' is a very blanket term. It sure is.

...would not the small scale task of changing water into wine qualify as some level of 'reality warping'?
...if i throw a piece of wood into my fire pit and allow it to completely burn, have i 'warped reality'? You could certainly call it that, though these 'warps' are scientifically based. Even water-to-wine -- transmutation -- is scientifically possible (though it would require lots of energy).

Reality warping though (as generally portrayed in comics) is more akin to treating the material world like a lucid dream. And currently, afaik, there is no plausible scientific basis for that kind of ability.

Originally posted by Mindship
It sure is.

You could certainly call it that, though these 'warps' are scientifically based. Even water-to-wine -- transmutation -- is scientifically possible (though it would require lots of energy).

Reality warping though (as generally portrayed in comics) is more akin to treating the material world like a lucid dream. And currently, afaik, there is no plausible scientific basis for that kind of ability. understood. though i am of the impression that reality warping and matter transformation go hand in hand.

meaning: to warp reality doesn't mean one has the power to 'make something from nothing' - instead, they are able to turn 'this into that'. they are, essentially, transforming matter.

Originally posted by Galan007
understood. though i am of the impression that reality warping and matter transformation go hand in hand.

meaning: to warp reality doesn't mean one has the power to 'make something from nothing' - instead, they are able to turn 'this into that'. they are, essentially, transforming matter.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Like you said, it's a blanket term.

Should we broach 'magic'?

Originally posted by Mindship
Yeah, I know what you mean. Like you said, it's a blanket term.

Should we broach 'magic'? heh, magic = all of the above.

Silver Surfer all of the above

Originally posted by Galan007
'reality warping' is a very blanket term. if it simply means that one has the ability to alter the matter/energy of a given variable, then would not the small scale task of changing water into wine qualify as some level of 'reality warping'?

furthermore, if i throw a piece of wood into my fire pit and allow it to completely burn, have i 'warped reality'? after all, once pyrolysis is complete, the molecular makeup of the wood has been changed into an entirely different element all together actually, you "purified the wood" to it's base element: carbon.

reality warping means that you can transcend the laws of physics to accomplish whatever goal you desire, almost of a magical nature. (that piece of wood when subjected to fire makes opera sounds instead of burning sounds, and makes the wood into a living duck).

molecule man, firestorm, and surfer despite their power can only affect matter and energy, mad jim jaspers, wanda, the worlogog, and the IG on the other hand could create things from nothingness since the rule of not being able to do so is below them. (thanos effortlessly creating a population of a billion beings from nothing, "no more mutants", the infamous "jaspers warp", and the worlogog's power)

reality warping is also separated by tiers, proteus has local reality warping that isn't permanent, but higher artifacts and beings have permanent effects, or until they will them to change.