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This fight will take place in the Jedi Temple on Corusaunt. Vader and Sidious vs. Luke and Mara. All of them are at their height of power.
Vader can be with or without his suit.
They all have access to a blaster and a second lightsaber.
Which team with have victory?

sideous gives luke a tough fight imo but luke will eventually win however palps would destroy mara no matter what.

luke would curb vader but mara could only feasibly beat vader with prep time.

This is interesting. Mara v. Force Unleashed Vader would be a spectacle. Vader is obviously physically stronger, but Mara has (arguably) a greater command of the Force and is unquestionably more athletic. Her bladework may even surpass Vader. (?)

I've never considered Mara that powerful in a one on one fight. She is really good at defeating opponents through more tactical methods.

Red Nemesis
This is interesting. Mara v. Force Unleashed Vader would be a spectacle. Vader is obviously physically stronger, but Mara has (arguably) a greater command of the Force and is unquestionably more athletic. Her bladework may even surpass Vader. (?)

wut

haermm

...



no

The proof is in the . His Imperial Majesty, Palpatine of Naboo, is probably the greatest collector of Force talent in the mythos. One of these characters was a fully initiated apprentice of the Sith Order, the other was a capable errand girl. If Mara was, in any way, a threat to Vader -- and she would be if she possessed a greater strength and/or command of the Force -- she'd be his number two. You can hone strength in the Force, you cannot create it. She did not possess the power or skill to ever surpass Vader. In a one on one fight, he would obliterate her.

Oh, that's funny, I was under the impression that we were using characters "at their height of power?" It isn't as though Mara has advanced from a glorified messenger to a preeminent master of a militarized Jedi Order.


In fact:



Hmm

That's right -- but it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.



It isn't as though she's screwing the brains out of its highest leader, either. Strength in the Force, potential, cannot be enhanced. If Palpatine sensed that Mara possessed the potential to rival or surpass Vader, he would have either killed him and trained her as his formal Sith apprentice or he would have killed her instead. He did neither, so she never had the strength to rival him.

Period? Yes, I think so.

This is, forgive me, begging the question.

Claim + Reason: Mara never had the potential to rival or surpass Vader, because if she did then Palpatine would have trained her.
Warrant: Palpatine would have trained her if she had the potential to rival or surpass Vader.

Your supporting evidence is that your claim is true. This is both fallacious circular reasoning and incorrect. You seem to be ignoring a key distinction, even as you try to attack me with it.

Potential is a very different characteristic than actual mastery. Sidious makes clear in RoDV that the damage Anakin has sustained has not diminished his potential. The problem is purely psychological. If this fact is considered then we see that Anakin's unmatched potential is still available. No one could surpass that. This does not mean that Vader is peerless. Caedus, for one, is explicitly noted to have exceeded his achieved strength.

Vader was by no means a scholar. His attention was not, as the Emperor's was, focused exclusively on the acquisition and mastery of new techniques. It is entirely possible that Mara learned more in the forty or so years after the fall of the Empire than Vader had at his command.

Mara has been shown to have an exceptionally subtle command of the Force. She was able to levitate herself while simultaneously using the Force to contain all traces of heat or motion (and also light?) emerging from her movement to evade a security camera. This multitasking is something rarely seen, being reserved for greats like Dooku, who used Force lightning regularly in combat.

This (everything posted beside your name) is, forgive me, incorrect.

Palpatine is the leading collector in Force-capable apprentices, acolytes, and minions. He was constantly on the lookout for one who possessed the capability to surpass Vader, from Starkiller to Skywalker. If Mara Jade possessed that ability, that attunement, that aptitude for Force prowess, he would have sensed it -- it's not something you can enhance or augment -- and he would have acted accordingly.

The fact that Mara Jade can supposedly multitask (since you don't have the exact feat documented with certainty) does not mean that she rivals or surpasses Dooku, who is a known multitasker, let alone Vader himself in any notable regard.

That you mention Caedus is another point: at the height of his power (which isn't Sacrifice), he has surpassed Vader. During her fight to the death with him, Mara herself recognizes that her Force powers are beneath his.

Vader has Mara on the feats and merits. To Palpatine, someone who has an eye for potential and the means to hone it far greater than Luke Skywalker of Bumfvck, Tatooine, Mara Jade was a glorified messenger. Her true notable feats in combat come from her gifts as a strategist and as an expert assassin, not as an overwhelming duelist or Force user.

Vader crushes her. Easily and effortlessly.

Originally posted by Gideon
This (everything posted beside your name) is, forgive me, incorrect.

Palpatine is the leading collector in Force-capable apprentices, acolytes, and minions. He was constantly on the lookout for one who possessed the capability to surpass Vader, from Starkiller to Skywalker. If Mara Jade possessed that ability, that attunement, that aptitude for Force prowess, he would have sensed it -- it's not something you can enhance or augment -- and he would have acted accordingly.

The fact that Mara Jade can supposedly multitask (since you don't have the exact feat documented with certainty) does not mean that she rivals or surpasses Dooku, who is a known multitasker, let alone Vader himself in any notable regard.

That you mention Caedus is another point: at the height of his power (which isn't Sacrifice), he has surpassed Vader. During her fight to the death with him, Mara herself recognizes that her Force powers are beneath his.

Vader has Mara on the feats and merits. To Palpatine, someone who has an eye for potential and the means to hone it far greater than Luke Skywalker of Bumfvck, Tatooine, Mara Jade was a glorified messenger. Her true notable feats in combat come from her gifts as a strategist and as an expert assassin, not as an overwhelming duelist or Force user.

Vader crushes her. Easily and effortlessly. Unless she screws his brains out.

she is hot. but vader probably has no erm... ReVAN left anymore.

anyway, vader for the win. I'm not sure if it is effortless or not.

It is.

Vader isn't, actually, a raging psychotic loon like Caedus. He possesses some tactical brilliance (see the OT). Moreover, he had access to the Emperor's Hands and likely knows very well what sort of tricks Palpatine taught them. She may be a major pain in the ass under the right circumstances, but that's a big if.

I'm sure that there are dozens of Jedi, Sith, and dark Jedi who possess certain tricks and esoteric techniques that Vader doesn't know. But his lack of scholarly status doesn't make a damn bit of difference: he's still 80% of the most powerful Sith Lord in existence, a being of power held in high regard throughout the mythos. He's also the most prolific killer of Jedi in galactic history.

He's not going to be beaten or even significantly challenged by an admittedly skilled assassin in a straight up fight.

Simply.

Straight up fight, Vader, Effortlessly
Guerrilla Warfare, Mara,Months of prep.

true enough. In a Caedus/Mara sort of fight she has a chance. Her strength never is head to head though, so we can't expect her to win that many fights in such a scenario. Her strength was she never let herself get into scenarios like that.

Originally posted by truejedi
true enough. In a Caedus/Mara sort of fight she has a chance. Her strength never is head to head though, so we can't expect her to win that many fights in such a scenario. Her strength was she never let herself get into scenarios like that. Apart from when she did and then she dies.

well no, she was in an assassin scenario with caedus, he just wouldn't freaking die like a person should.

Originally posted by truejedi
well no, she was in an assassin scenario with caedus, he just wouldn't freaking die like a person should. Well duh they wanted more Caedus fanwankery.

Originally posted by truejedi
well no, she was in an assassin scenario with caedus, he just wouldn't freaking die like a person should.

Were you not here for the one that got skullfvckt by the 3 hands of Caedus?

I mean, I thought that you were the one complaining about it?

Originally posted by Gideon
This (everything posted beside your name) is, forgive me, incorrect.

I dunno if it's the paint they use at college, or if it's something in the food, but you aren't at your best right now. This almost (but only almost) feels like I'm taking unfair advantage of a handicap.



That's great. It has nothing to do with what I wrote though.

Vader's potential is unmatched. "More than Master Yoda" doesn't mean nothing. It would be silly for someone to argue that (to use your phrase) a "capable errand girl" has a chance at higher Force potential.

I am not being silly.

I am observing the difference between actualized and idealized power. Vader's idealized power is unmatched, save for one Luke Skywalker. RoDV makes clear that Palpatine still considers the "UNLIMITED POWAH" to be available, as the damage is purely psychological. Under your own utility equation (maximize Force potential in apprentice) Vader is still the optimal choice.

Vader never fulfilled his potential. We have a being of (nearly?) infinite potential that achieved X level of power. X could increase. There is therefore no situation in which a conventional Force user could hope to replace Vader. Only Luke shared his (lack of a) limit, so only Luke was viable. Mara was not viable.

This does not mean that Mara's mastery is automatically inferior.

Vader: X current power level, infinite improvement
Jade: Y current power level, finite improvement

X > Y @ Endor
X ? Y after 40 years

Vader's growth stopped. Mara's continued to an unquantified degree. It is at least possible that she has equaled his achievement.





Wookieepedia gave me this citation:


I distinctly remember a line to the effect of "only a Master could achieve such a feat" or some such. It has been quite a while...


This is nebulous at best. You imply that Caedus has not yet surpassed Vader, but this is not a mathematical certainty. This is compounded by Mara's doubly vague relation to Vader. (Being less than X+Y does not make her less than X.) Moreover, Caedus is not Vader. He has a completely different fighting style and has a different focus (here is a Sith that spent five years and is a "total master of the Force," something Vader couldn't say with a straight face).


No. Palpatine was taking a much longer perspective. Was it possible for someone, given unlimited training for an indefinite amount of time to overcome Vader? Yes. Unquestionably. The reason no one replaced Vader is that, given the same amount of training and time Vader would be superior.

Mara Jade was a combatant that killed an individual that considered himself on par with Luke WTF overpowerd Skywalker (he survived by DMauthor fiat). This makes the pairing worth thinking about, at least.

Since you know almost nothing about college (you're thirteen, correct?), we'll chalk this up to the fly cautioning the spider and move on. It is interesting to note that you mention a handicap, given the fact that nothing you've provided has any merit whatsoever.



A spectacle in that it would be an ample demonstration of a curbstomp.



Prove it.

Oh, wait. You can't. This would be Unsupported (and false) Claim #1.



Your point? So's just about everyone. Prove how this would be an advantage in a fight against someone with so much overwhelming superiority in the Force.



This would be Unsupported Claim #2; prove it.

Vader possessed a sufficient command of lightsaber combat that he could borrow from all seven lightsaber forms and combine them into an unorthodox application; he's bested multiple Jedi in combat simultaneously, and shamed one of Palpatine's Hands in single combat (and then later, his clones) in In His Image.

The rest:

We've already established that Jade's potential is miles beneath Vader's own. In order for her to have surpassed the Dark Lord, you have to prove that she had access to a wealth of Force techniques. She didn't; she knew next to nothing because Palpatine limited her Force knowledge, and Luke Skywalker isn't exactly a living archive on Force technique. She is an assassin first, Jedi second.

The only appearance of proof you've offered is (1) that Wookieepedia says she was able to multitask due to a technique that you say is on par with Masters.

That's... insufficient. Vader is beyond Master level, Wookieepedia isn't the end all be all in terms of elaboration, and your memory is flawed. I'm interested in the source material.

Lest we forget that the only other offering you've made is that she -- under a specific set of circumstances -- threatened someone who may be on Vader's level because he personally considered himself to be on par with Luke Skywalker.

This is a gross misapplication of logic. You've offered nothing to corroborate or supplement your argument; Vader wins on the feats, on the accolades, and on the achievements, which means that my argument wins and your argument loses.

So the real question is: which one of us is truly handicapped? Certainly not the winner (me). Which leaves you.

Don't bother me with something like this again. If you want to make your case, make it. You will provide proof.

Now.

Edit: And, just so we're clear, no one likes you.

I like him, therefore you're wrong.

Originally posted by mattatom
I like him, therefore you're wrong.

woo

Edit: decision: Fvck it. Gideon, you are totally right. My lack of sources makes this untenable. I proamiz (why is that not redflagged?) promise that at some point I will have time to read and then I will check out Betrayal and then I will read it and then I will have context and then I will have grounds upon which to make points and then I will have made sense and then you will see that half-formed ideas dont come from nowhere and then u will kno that i was rite all along. But not rite nao.

I think that the edit box doesn't do spellcheck, and that I've run out of time. DBL POAST

ROFL! owned

At the heights of their power, Luke would take out Sidious after a spectacularly awesome fight(Even though Luke beat a couple Sidious clones already).

Mara would give Vader a fight, then take the upper hand. He would hold his own, but eventually he'd go down.

Originally posted by KingD19
At the heights of their power, Luke would take out Sidious after a spectacularly awesome fight(Even though Luke beat a couple Sidious clones already).

Mara would give Vader a fight, then take the upper hand. He would hold his own, but eventually he'd go down.

Way to completely ignore the logic of the preceding posts.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Were you not here for the one that got skullfvckt by the 3 hands of Caedus?

I mean, I thought that you were the one complaining about it?

oh... it was me. I had forgotten though. Mara did get owned by Caedus's third hand. thank you red for reminding me of the reason of my prior anger!!!


that's right gideon. It took a Sith Lord with THREE HANDS (its canon, don't argue with it, blame Karen Traviss) to take Mara down.

Originally posted by truejedi
oh... it was me. I had forgotten though. Mara did get owned by Caedus's third hand. thank you red for reminding me of the reason of my prior anger!!!


that's right gideon. It took a Sith Lord with THREE HANDS (its canon, don't argue with it, blame Karen Traviss) to take Mara down. That's no hand...

Did Nebaris steal TJ's account?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Did Nebaris steal TJ's account? No, it's Socking-by-Mind control.

the three hands thing is true. i swear. Karen Traviss describes what THREE of Caedus's hands are doing at the moment he sticks dart in Mara's leg. Read sacrifice if you don't believe me. nothing neb about it.

Originally posted by truejedi
the three hands thing is true. i swear. Karen Traviss describes what THREE of Caedus's hands are doing at the moment he sticks dart in Mara's leg. Read sacrifice if you don't believe me. nothing neb about it.

I believe you, because it's true.

What are you trying to say Beef?!

Originally posted by Weltall
What are you trying to say Beef?! TJ is acting like you?

Originally posted by Weltall
What are you trying to say Beef?!

So you're Neb, and female...

Liar.

Originally posted by mattatom
TJ is acting like you?

no i'm not. its an untruth.

all holocrons were made the same way! So bane's manipulation of subatomic particles in the creation of his means very little!


See?!?

Originally posted by truejedi
no i'm not. its an untruth.

all holocrons were made the same way! So bane's manipulation of subatomic particles in the creation of his means very little!


See?!?
No...No I don't.

Originally posted by Gideon


Edit: And, just so we're clear, no one likes you.

That was a really rude thing to say, Gideon! It's also not true, Red is usually very sensible and has good arguments. You two were having a very good debate, but then you had to lower yourself and start saying rude and untrue things. Seems like only a pretty low level person would use something like that in a debate.

Originally posted by Jamefril
That was a really rude thing to say, Gideon! It's also not true, Red is usually very sensible and has good arguments. You two were having a very good debate, but then you had to lower yourself and start saying rude and untrue things. Seems like only a pretty low level person would use something like that in a debate.

A lot of people in SW forum say that all the time. I have yet to see a single prolonged debate here where there hasn't been some form of bashing.



If Luke can use EL to take out Vader, then he and Mara could team up against Sidious.

Originally posted by Jamefril
That was a really rude thing to say, Gideon! It's also not true, Red is usually very sensible and has good arguments. You two were having a very good debate, but then you had to lower yourself and start saying rude and untrue things. Seems like only a pretty low level person would use something like that in a debate.
I'm pretty sure I started it. The college comment (while technically accurate) seems to have hurt his feelings. And anyway, its all in good fun. So it shouldn't matter that much.

Also: Gideon, I'll have a response (I remembered the Russian book site) at some point tonight.

We see that Mara's feat is indeed extraordinary. She totally shuts down her own heat emissions as she travels across 200 meters of sensors. This leads to a nontrivial distraction in and of itself. To this self-imposed sauna she adds the distraction of maintaining a constant air flow and levitating herself. Dooku is noted to have been exceptional in his TK abilities by his use of "Force Flight," among other things. To this technique she adds two others, one of which dramatically decreases her ability to focus.

My contention was that Mara has a greater command of the Force. Vader has never been shown to do anything as intricate as this maneuver. The Force Unleashed, a conscious attempt to aggrandize Vader's Force abilities, doesn't even come close.

"But wait, Nemesis! Vader is so much more powerful than Mara that her masterful control of the Force won't matter. Brute force will carry the day!"

Nope. Look at how she deals with an opponent stronger than herself, on information she obtains while crash landing:

She out-thought him and out-fought him. Mara used the environment and her own skillset. Even with a severely limited amount of time to prep with an even smaller set of data, she beat him. (Well, kinda.)

The color coding illustrates the Author fiat. (We are assuming that the 3rd hand is not a prehensile *scrubbed*)

The fight is long- really long- so I've bolded the important factors. The parts where Mara outdoes Jacen in terms of speed, bladework, and cunning. The parts where non-situational aspects of her combat style are evident.

The matchup is taking place in the Jedi temple on Coruscant. Wookieepedia notes that "Using precise blueprints of the original temple, every hallway and chamber was exactly identical to the former structure." (The source appears to be Legacy 0, but it is not explicitly noted.) Mara will know the Jedi temple like the back of her hand. This puts her in an even better position than she was at against Jacen.

We are pitting Mara against a Sith Lord of far greater power than her own. She knows this. She has had personal interaction with Vader and knows of him, even if she hasn't had the opportunity to see him in action. She will be just as crafty in using her home against him as she was using some random cave against her nephew. This is Mara's strongsuit. The location is not "the plains of Naboo" or "demiplane of monotony Y." This is her home turf.



Mara's unique set of skills, learned as an Emperor's hand, in conjunction with her exemplary control of the Force, afford her, at the very least, a chance of victory in this arena.

...

This isn't it, is it? If so, I'm not impressed: the fact that she has powers that are Master-level do not make a difference. Do you know who else was a Jedi Master? Coleman Trebor. Do you know who killed him? Jango Fett. Does the text say "a particularly powerful Jedi Master"? No. Does it say "a reasonably powerful Jedi Master"? No. Does it even say a "slightly above average Jedi Master"? No.

It says Jedi Master. Who is the most prolific killer of Jedi in galactic history? Her opponent, Darth Vader.

Point moot.

As far as telekinesis is concerned, Vader is able to deconstruct bridges and environments and hurl them at his enemies. He's fine in the TK department.

As far as understanding the Jedi Temple is concerned, I'm pretty sure Darth Vader has been there. At least once, anyway.

As far as her performance against Jacen is concerned, for all of his skills and pain threshold, Vader's threshold for abuse is miles above his grandson's. He's not going to be reduced to tears due to a well placed kick to the shin.

Conclusion: You've yet to provide how she'd be anything beyond a nuisance.

Much to learn, you still have.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This is interesting. Mara v. Force Unleashed Vader would be a spectacle. Vader is obviously physically stronger, but Mara has (arguably) a greater command of the Force and is unquestionably more athletic. Her bladework may even surpass Vader. (?)

Anything to substantiate this? Theres nothing to show how mara's command of the force would even surpass that of vaders considering how he was able to choke people millions of lightyears away(bounty hunter wars) and effortlessly tool jedi that could rip a command module off a space station with utter ease.

Do you really think that mara's tactics are going to overwhelm vader?

Like gideon said, vaders tolerance for pain and abuse vastly surpass that of even caedus, look at the massive beating vader received when galen thrashed him in their final duel.

And look at how vader got back right to his feet(and still having the stamina to fight another round in the DS ending) and took no damage from galens suicide attack that destryoed an entire tower and killed every storm trooper within the area.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest mara would even be a threat to vader, so what if she knows of him? Doesn't vader "know of her" as well? Or does this not apply?

EDIT.

And its likely that if she attempted to beat him through strategy its highly likely vader would already know that considering he can peer into his enemis mind and interrupt them before they can implement any strategy.(RODV backs this up).

As far as telekinesis is concerned, you are again ignoring my argument. I agree with you. Mara is not as strong as Vader. I've argued in the past that Vader has some of the strongest TK in the mythos.

This does not mean that it will help him against Mara. She has been shown to have a nuanced and fine control of her power, in a way that Vader doesn't. For example: Vader can throw things at her (like he did to Luke). Her style would be to redirect those projectiles back at Vader or to nudge them subtly away. She doesn't have to match his power directly to nullify his advantages.




Yeah, it isn't as though Mara has been shown to be particularly adept at using the environment to her advantage, or that Vader has been shown to be oblivious to that aspect of combat. He didn't have the high ground.



Miles above Jacen, who stayed in the Embrace of pain for weeks? Miles above Jacen, who feeds on pain. Miles above Jacen, whose pain tolerance allowed him to meet multiple Jedi masters in open combat while still injured from a bout with Luke and emerge victorious?

You'll have to do a hell of a lot of work to outdo Jacen's pain tolerance.

The embrace of pain equates to the ability to feed on pain more than half man half machine? Yes, I think Vader(I fought 10+ Jedi simultaneously as they were slashing at me, as well as stabbing through my suit to kill the Maul clone" wins in the pain category.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


This does not mean that it will help him against Mara. She has been shown to have a nuanced and fine control of her power, in a way that Vader doesn't. For example: Vader can throw things at her (like he did to Luke). Her style would be to redirect those projectiles back at Vader or to nudge them subtly away. She doesn't have to match his power directly to nullify his advantages.
And how would she have enough power to redirect any massive object that vader could effortlessly throw at her?

What is stopping vader from reaching out with the force and outright ragdolling her with it like he did to more powerful jedi than mara?

Even starkiller could barely reflect anything vader had thrown at him so how could someone of a much lower level power of SK and vader could possibly even hope to deflect such massive objects?

The setting is in the jedi temple is it not? Which give vader a huge advantage when it comes to seizing a telekinetic storm.

And its amusing how mara can "deflect" anything vader throws at her but your assuming vader can't.(Funny how he redirects massive pillars at galen though).




Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Miles above Jacen, who stayed in the Embrace of pain for weeks? Miles above Jacen, who feeds on pain. Miles above Jacen, whose pain tolerance allowed him to meet multiple Jedi masters in open combat while still injured from a bout with Luke and emerge victorious?

You'll have to do a hell of a lot of work to outdo Jacen's pain tolerance. Yes.

Firstly survived being crushed by 3 gigantic pillars(which would have already killed the majority of combatants in the mythos), objects that are obviously denser then wood(one tree killed the dark woman, a jedi that can phase through objects.

We then have vader getting back on his feet and then his helmet torn off and face smashed into a heat generator and subsequently smashed through a wall shattering it to pieces and then smashing through another pillar.

And what was his most severe injury? A blackout for less than five minutes and then getting on his feet and getting unharmed by galens suicidal attack that killed everything in the tower but vader and palpatine.

Nemesis
As far as telekinesis is concerned, you are again ignoring my argument. I agree with you. Mara is not as strong as Vader. I've argued in the past that Vader has some of the strongest TK in the mythos.

You're correct so far. I expect that to change.



Except that you have offered nothing to corroborate or support that notion. All you've proven is that she has the finesse and control of "a Jedi Master" -- that's nothing compared to Vader.



I'm looking for the punchline, since this is obviously a joke. Vader, off the top of my head, gave the first demonstration of "manipulating the environment" in the saga.

Hint:You referenced it.



...An incompetent Vader, fresh into the ranks of the Sith, does not constitute the mighty Sith he became.

Mara's potential environmental advantage is rendered moot: this isn't unfamiliar terrain to Vader.



Yep. Vader's been demolished in ways Jacen cannot even begin to conceive and shrugged it off. His pain threshold is higher.

I'll feat mine later. You cannot dispute the magnitude of the feat based on the ambivalent narration alone. Fact: She multitasked, something few Jedi have been capable of. Fact: She did so while under extremely strenuous conditions.


Lolwut? If you mean the shutdown of the energy fields then watch the movie: it is unintentional. If you mean the manipulation of the floating droids, then watch the movie: that was Kenobi's mistake, not Anakin's planning. If you mean the wtffayl on the hill then we clearly have different definitions of "environmental manipulation."

If you mean Vader just before the BigReveal (tm) on the Death Star (where he chucks random crates at Luke) then you'll have to rationalize why a combatant as quick (speedblitzed Caedus at one point) and agile (jumped over a wall and landed in midair) as Mara Jade is gonna fail to evade an attack even baseball bat Luke was capable of deflecting. (Difference of degree, not kind.)



...An incompetent Vader, fresh into the ranks of the Sith, does not constitute the mighty Sith he became.
So ESB Vader is now "incompetent" and "fresh into the ranks of the Sith"?
No.



It doesn't have to be. The advantage is not that he is unfamiliar but that she is. Her ability to capitalize on her surroundings is demonstrably greater than his own.



I have to question how much of that is because mechanical limbs don't feel pain, but I'll admit that Vader is more durable than Caedus.

You've yet to show that he is more resistant to pain.

WTF

You're joking, right?



Translation: I'll make a claim, but can't be bothered to support it.



"Something few Jedi have been capable of"? The source material itself indicates that a random-ass Jedi Master possesses the capability, so we can chalk this up to the latest in your series of embarrassments.



This was the feat I was referring to (as indicated by my usage of your quote), and Luke "I can outmaneuver Prince Xizor's top enforcer by my Force-enhanced speed and reflexes" Skywalker was overwhelmed. Furthermore, Vader was not trying to kill Luke, in case you haven't actually watched the movie...

...And since the location was Cloud City, and not the Death Star, you might have.



That was a reference to Anakin not having the high ground, where he was both incompetent and fresh into the ranks of the Sith.



Vader overwhelmed Roan Shryne, Luke Skywalker, the Dark Woman, and others through manipulation of the environment. You've cited a single instance when she successfully ensnared the Anakin-class incompetent Darth Caedus, who is not Darth Vader. He is a skilled tactition, unlike his grandspawn.

So prove it.



Correct: he has a higher pain threshold because his mechanical limbs are resistant. He's far more durable and therefore Mara will have to work much, much harder in order to injure him.

This is an untruth. The line you are referring to, "But only a Jedi Master was likely to know all three or be able to sustain them simultaneously across such a broad distance" does not say that any Jedi master could do it. It does not even say that most Jedi masters could do it. It says that of the set , only a subset {Master} would have the hope of the capacity to do so.

There is implication, and then there is fabrication. You are changing the meaning of the line to something it was never meant to be. This says that doing what Mara did was hard. That is all.


How much of that was because the projectiles were simply going too fast to stop and how much was that Luke had a grand total of a day training and didn't know how to deal with it?

You think a Master like Mara will be completely unprepared for such an attack? You think that someone like Mara will be incapable of surpassing ESB Luke's capabilities?

Now you'll have to substantiate this. Luke is by no means a god at this point.


I'll tackle proving that Mara is the batman of Star Wars (and find the poster that I stole that from) when I go quoat mining.

Later.

Conceded. (Funny how easy it is to start arguing the points you've put in my mouth than the ones I set out to prove. I don't care much either way how durable Caedus is. That's a whole separate discussion. I care about how smart Mara is. Which is a lot.)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

I'll tackle proving that Mara is the batman of Star Wars (and find the poster that I stole that from)

just this on the pain-tolerance thing:

Since fire hurts more than amputations, the most pain Vader felt was getting burned. He could not function while burned. He had to be rescued. I am aware that he remains burned (for some undisclosed reason) His pain at the VERY LEAST makes him angry.

Jacen functions through every injury he ever took. He ignored the pain applied to him by the World Brain, he functioned THROUGHOUT that pain.

So the question is: What hurts more? The embrace of pain? Or burns?

burns hurting a lot is actually a misconception.

the lava on mustafar was apparently so hot that anakin caught on fire without even touching it... so it stands to reason that his nerves were most likely burned away near instantly meaning he most likely didnt feel as much as he thought he was feeling.

Originally posted by truejedi
just this on the pain-tolerance thing:

Since fire hurts more than amputations, the most pain Vader felt was getting burned. He could not function while burned. He had to be rescued. I am aware that he remains burned (for some undisclosed reason) His pain at the VERY LEAST makes him angry.

Jacen functions through every injury he ever took. He ignored the pain applied to him by the World Brain, he functioned THROUGHOUT that pain.

So the question is: What hurts more? The embrace of pain? Or burns?

Fact remains that vader can take far more punishment than caedus.

The three pillars that collapsed on vader would have killed the vast majority of combatants in the mythos and that would include and caedus and this is vader being caught completely off guard, vader got right back to his feat barely showing any pain at all.

Getting crushed by giant pillars, getting smashed through a wall till it smashes to pieces, getting your face forcefully smashed onto surging energy and getting a massive shield generator thrown in your direction is far more painful and punishing, and vader survives all this with nothing but a blackout and then getting back to its feet mere minutes and even having enough strength to fight with galen in the alternate dark side path.



Hell vader has even blocked force attacks that was powerful enough to instantly kill his storm troopers.

I see absolutely no way mara can kill vader nor even be a threat to him in a straight up fight(force and sabers only), the ONLY way mara can beat vader is via unconventional means(setting traps or killing him with a starship).

I think Vader survived the crashing pillars was due to not just his pain threshold but his armor as well. In fact, regardless of ability to cope with pain, if your body suffers enough damage, you die. So place Caedus in Vader's armor, and let's see how that goes.

Just how durable was his armor anyways? It certainly isn't plated and appears that only his chest and shoulders were armored while his stomach and lower body were just covered in leather.

And i recall it was vaders head that took most of the beating, especially when he had his face slammed into surging energy and then through a wall.

The crashing pillars were large and heavy enough to crush a car so i don't think his armor would have helped him much.

I mean a single tree is able to crush a large car.... you know what i mean.

Lol find a car in the Death Star. I don't really know if there's enough info on Vader's armor to make a good case out of it. But physically speaking, if that armor couldn't withstand those beams, Vader's life support should be kaput. Whether the man can take the pain or not isn't going stop his body from breaking.

Well SW is pretty inconsistent anyways.

Like how vader is suppose to die without his helmet or having sound in space.

But anyways that is still very very punishing to be put through.

Remember the peak of their power.

On the line:



Nemesis is indeed correct on the fact that line does not say that any Jedi Master could do what Mara did. Attempts to bring up a specific Jedi Master like Colmen Trebor and make note of his ineptitude is a fallacy (hasty generalization) because it takes a specific example and applies it to a general rule.

To give a counter example...

1. Only a psychologist was likely to know all three abilities or be able to sustain them simultaneously across such a broad distance.
2. Some psychologists are dismissed in the academic community.
3. Therefore, the three tasks are easy because some psychologists are dismissed in the academic community.

On the side, if I were to put that into standard format, it would be shown to be an invalid syllogism.

The implication of the line is clear, only someone with the power and experience of a Jedi Master would likely be able to do this. That some Jedi Masters may be unable to accomplish such a feat is irrelevant to the statement since the statement makes no claim that the feat is easy or open to all Jedi Masters.

Implications are rarely clear, which is why they're implications; implicit versus explicit. The feat Mara accomplished was something that a Jedi Master could do. Coleman Trebor is a Jedi Master, and is still virtually unimpressive in the grand scheme of things. Having the abilities of "a Jedi Master" -- you'll also note that the statement did not imply that one had to be a particularly badass or adept Master -- does not give one the skill to take on Darth Vader, the greatest killer of Jedi Masters and their moms in recorded history.

Nemesis has utterly failed to present a case why Mara would be anything other than a distraction for Vader in the field of combat.

I can't help but notice that no counterexample of equal (or even equivalent) multitasking has been provided. To my knowledge this is the only example we're given of this kind of split in attention.

Also: Gideon, providing a "NO U" to Autokrat doesn't make me wrong. Look:




For those keeping track at home, this is the second logical fallacy used by Gideon and the beginning of the fourth page where he ignores provided evidence for the de facto assumption that Vader wins.

so what you're saying... is that you hate america.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
so what you're saying... is that you hate america.

no

yes you did!!! you TERRORIST!

Originally posted by Gideon
no

Gideon. We have it right there in black and white. Yes. You did.


So: Now that we've established that you hate america, why? Do you hate our freedom?

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
Remember the peak of their power. And that would mean vader at his peak = him without the suit? Stomp.

Vader was at the height of his powers near ANH. What are you talking about there?

Is this how debates end? With irrelevant posts?

Everyone seems to be forgeting about Luke and Sidious. Maybe Mara would be just enough of a distraction for Luke to take out Sidious and then take out Vader too? I mean Luke would've destroyed Vader in the movie if Sidious hadn't come in being all creepy. I would imagine Vader's height of power being somewhere shortly before he got his hand removed by Luke. That might give them the advantage they need to beat the two Sith.

well, i, of course agree with that.

Luke is GOING to win this fight. My only hesitation was if Mara dies or not.

Originally posted by truejedi
Vader was at the height of his powers near ANH. What are you talking about there? Did someone hack your account?


And near the height of his powers? What are you talking about? Vader unlike luke and sidious NEVER achieved his full potential.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Did someone hack your account?


And near the height of his powers? What are you talking about? Vader unlike luke and sidious NEVER achieved his full potential. TJ didn't say "height of his potential". "Height of his powers" means ANH was Vader's peak time in life for his powers' development. That doesn't equate to the highest they could ever be ever.

Alright. Vader grabs luke by the balls and then squeeze until his hand turns white.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Did someone hack your account?


And near the height of his powers? What are you talking about? Vader unlike luke and sidious NEVER achieved his full potential.


Did someone take away your ability to read?


Height of his POTENTIAL was never achieved. Obviously. Believe it or not, i have at least an elementary knowledge of Star Wars.

What i SAID was the height of his POWERS, which is a completely different thing. Maybe YOUR account was hacked?

This goes to Sidious and Vader. Sidious and Luke would be drawn out fight, while Vader would easily dispose of Mara with the force. After Vader kills Mara, him and Sidious overpower Luke.

Yeah frankly I've just never though of any incarnation of Luke to be above DE Sidous. Not that he's far off, just not above.

Originally posted by truejedi
Did someone take away your ability to read?


Height of his POTENTIAL was never achieved. Obviously. Believe it or not, i have at least an elementary knowledge of Star Wars.

What i SAID was the height of his POWERS, which is a completely different thing. Maybe YOUR account was hacked?

Wow TJ i congratulate you for becoming the forums new keyboard warrior.

Doesn't potential = power?

Confusing between power and potential =/= lacking the ability to read, up your intelligence and down your stupidity.

no. it doesn't at all. work on your vocabulary. then come back and try to post.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Wow TJ i congratulate you for becoming the forums new keyboard warrior.

Doesn't potential = power?

Confusing between power and potential =/= lacking the ability to read, up your intelligence and down your stupidity. Saying Full Potential is equivalent to saying The Most Power You Could Ever Have.

But saying Height of His Power is equivalent to saying This is The Most Powerful He's Ever Been. And thanks to our knowing Vader's fate, we know it's the most powerful he'll ever be. Hence, Height of His Power.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah frankly I've just never though of any incarnation of Luke to be above DE Sidous. Not that he's far off, just not above.

Gideon brainwashed you didn't he...

Revan at his height of power > Luke at his height of power > Sidious at his height of power.

Srsly though, we can't prove that neither is above the other.

can't be proved. It really all boils down to opinion. Which is probably why this board is still alive. My opinion is that Luke could take sidious, simply because, he did. Combat isn't all there is to it though. Luke simply doesn't have the access to the information that Sidious did. I have no doubt that Luke COULD master any technique sidious knew, but sidious surely knew more.

I don't know if the reverse would be true though.

For instance, do you think that Sidious could anchor himself in the force so securely that even the black hole at the center of the galaxy couldn't move him? I'm thinking by the very nature of sidious's relationship with the force(Darkside), he couldn't.

And BoratBorat, peace bro, its all good.

Tj, u kno BB is actually Wolverine2179, DorianYates, Schwarzenegger, IAMBATMAN, Ivalice, Sylar, GahLakTus, Thiru, Manslayer, Kadesh, San'Doria, VadersElements, ESB Vader, and/or LightElement?

nope. i didn't even look. now i'm sad cause i yelled at wolfie. I thought a newb was taking shots at me.

No really, i thought someone else was using your account, you were usually very calm in the vs forums and suddenly you seem very aggresive.

ah. i don't feel overly aggresive, beyond what i said to you.

lie!

That's what happens when you change your name every half a year.

Or would you prefer if i changed it ever week?

Well, you have to be very creative then...

lol, i never check these things. I never even knew that wolfie was Ivarice. I thought he was some guy who joined while i was gone.

I regularly check peoples' profiles so I can stay on top of these things.

Originally posted by truejedi
lol, i never check these things. I never even knew that wolfie was Ivarice. I thought he was some guy who joined while i was gone.

TskTsk.

Anyways this will be my username for a long time, i dont really take this forum so seriously anymore.

There's a lot of that going around. Maybe its time for a 2nd generation (including zero current members) to start from scratch. There could be talk of "antediluvians" that "worshiped Sidious" liek idjaeiou(y)ts and they can all be Lumiya fanbois.

Every 8 months, Janus, Nai, or Gideon will show up and get mobbed by ppl that can't believe that they can believe that Ragnos, Kun, or Sidious (respectively) have a chance against Lumiya.

I've thought a lot about this.

its true. anytime a member brings up something, we all are annoyed that they dont already know. i am going to wait for the death of luke, and then im quitting star wars. i'm only waiting for FOTJ to conclude, i guess there is a new bane novel coming out too.

We usually have a few good weeks of discussion after each release. Right now we are on a several month streak of no releases, and that has made most members, including myself, treat this website like a social site instead of a star wars discussion site.

Funny that, I was just thinking earlier tonight if I should pull a Blax. I'm getting tired of the same 'ol stuff getting tossed back and forth and re-discussed and re-proven.

I remember when I first found this place. Seems like only yesterday...

RotS had just been released, KotOR II was only 6 months old, the Dark Nest trilogy was brand new, there was talk of a Darth Bane novel, plenty of comics and Clone Wars novels, Battlefront 2 to think of...

Good times.

but... but I was gonna pull a Blax.

lol, the golden age?