Who can beat Zoom?

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Tha C-Master
What characters under skyfather level can beat Zoom in a fight?

Who can beat him for the majority?

Which characters under Mid Tier can beat him with a day of prep?

Discuss.

Priest
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Wolverine is designed for these kinds of fights. That's just mean.
thumb up

Lord Feron
Oh burn!!

Tha C-Master
Lol I was being sarcastic in the other thread. Although we all know Wolverine can't be hurt by Zoom. That's another tale.
So is there nobody?

xJLxKing
Anyone that can affect different time lines, or control their out time(to back in time).

AsbestosFlaygon
Silver Surfer?

xJLxKing
Nah, Odin would

AsbestosFlaygon
Yeah. Surfer's fastest reaction time is less than a nanosecond. Zoom would definitely be faster than that.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Yeah. Surfer's fastest reaction time is less than a nanosecond. Zoom would definitely be faster than that.
Yes wink

BlackZero30x
this is zoom not prof zoom right?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nah, Odin would

Don't recall Odin being below Skyfather.

Zeuodin
The Runner, Black Racer, Despero, Etc.

Lord Feron
Kang?

Kris Blaze
Well, the last time I checked Zoom was not unbeatable with CIS.

And seeing as Xavier moves a hella lot faster with his telepathy....

Tha C-Master
This thread is a good channel for threads as well, so you believe Xavier can beat Zoom in KMC?

iceman24567
Not in my opinion

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
This thread is a good channel for threads as well, so you believe Xavier can beat Zoom in KMC?
With CIS on, he could.

Zoom rarely knocks out his opponents in the first go.

Tha C-Master
Oh so we're saying Zoom would lose if he were toying with his opponent, correct?

Batman-Prime
Couldn't the Silver Surfer destroy earth from space, killing Zoom in the process?

With prep probably Dr. Doom, he built an time machine IIRC

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Oh so we're saying Zoom would lose if he were toying with his opponent, correct?

Yeah. Which seems to be what he -always- does. Even when he's fighting to win, he makes them suffer or does something of the like. Xavier has to be taken unconscious instantly, or it's telepathy-time. And Zoom is like, the only high herald without any sort of telepathic defense.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Yeah. Which seems to be what he -always- does. Even when he's fighting to win, he makes them suffer or does something of the like. Xavier has to be taken unconscious instantly, or it's telepathy-time. And Zoom is like, the only high herald without any sort of telepathic defense. Oh he has defense. He can move faster than thought.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Oh he has defense. He can move faster than thought.
So can Xavier's telepathy, a hell of a lot faster.

He can traverse galaxies in like a second no expression

Tha C-Master
So do you feel it would be that way bloodlusted as well? Just clarifying.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
So can Xavier's telepathy, a hell of a lot faster.

He can traverse galaxies in like a second no expression
You think telepathy will beat speedster?

Remember, Barry just wtf dodged MM's telepathy

Lord Feron
Originally posted by xJLxKing
You think telepathy will beat speedster?

Remember, Barry just wtf dodged MM's telepathy

Zoom has no way of doing that because his powers as we all know isn't based on speed.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Lord Feron
Zoom has no way of doing that because his powers as we all know isn't based on speed. Hmm... Interesting
You are correct, but he is still faster then Xavier and will beat him

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
You think telepathy will beat speedster?

Remember, Barry just wtf dodged MM's telepathy

Barry did not just dodge MM's telepathy, Barry beat the shit out of Hal because of MM's telepathy.

Lord Feron
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Hmm... Interesting
You are correct, but he is still faster then Xavier and will beat him

I could see that happening. Zoom just oneshots him but then what someone else brought up... he likes to smack people around a bit. If Zoom doesn't kill him and allows X to get his bearings he is gonna turn into a mindraped puppet.

But I do lean toward Zoom killing X before X gets the chance. I mean it's kmc not some comic book.

I feel like this happened but has X every put up Psi armor instinctively? Or does charles constantly aware of all the minds in his vicinity? This could change the outcome of the battle.

Lord Feron
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Barry did not just dodge MM's telepathy, Barry beat the shit out of Hal because of MM's telepathy.

X would be able to do that easily to Zoom, make him eat hiw own feet. (not like he would do that but he could if he wanted to..) Anyway you think X would be able to mind**** Zoom before zoom lands a hit? I fell like Charles is always awre of the minds in his vicinity?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Lord Feron
X would be able to do that easily to Zoom, make him eat hiw own feet. (not like he would do that but he could if he wanted to..) Anyway you think X would be able to mind**** Zoom before zoom lands a hit? I fell like Charles is always awre of the minds in his vicinity?

Naw, if Zoom wanted to take Charles out, Charles would go down right away. But in a fight, odds are that Zooms would try to teach him a lesson or somesuch.

Tha C-Master
Who else could beat Zoom under those conditions? In your opinion?

Galan007
zoom moves a whole lot faster than 'normal' time moves. so unless xavier's mental abilities are THAT fast as well know they aren't] then zoom is going to strike him with a superman-level+ punch, before he even has time to register that there is a fight happening.

in a nutshell: the only forum outcome of a zoom/xavier 'battle', would end in a steaming pile of cripple parts pouring out of a wheelchair. if that.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Zeuodin
The Runner, Black Racer, Despero, Etc. Do we have enough good showings of the Runner to give a decent argument of him against Zoom?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
zoom moves a whole lot faster than 'normal' time moves. so unless xavier's mental abilities are THAT fast as well know they aren't] then zoom is going to strike him with a superman-level+ punch, before he even has time to register that there is a fight happening.

in a nutshell: the only forum outcome of a zoom/xavier 'battle', would end in a steaming pile of cripple parts pouring out of a wheelchair. if that.

Couple of things.

- I wonder how many of Zoom's punches are superman level punches. Did Power Girl take a million of them? Did the random Amazon take a hundred? Zoom would never -ever- hit Xavier with a superman level punch. He hit Batman and Superman an equal amount of times, were all his punches the same strength?

- Xavier hasn't been in a wheelchair for some time.

- CIS would be on.

- Zoom's mind can still be reached by Xavier. No matter what degree of control Zoom has over himself, he still exists in our timeline.

- Zoom can not tell if he is being attacked by a telepath. He can not -see- telepathy.

The only way Zoom would win against Xavier would be if he wanted to win right away. I've never seen Zoom be in a fight where he wanted to take out his opponent right away. Zoom would most likely not be in a fight if he wasn't trying to teach Xavier something. Zoom's personality is the only thing that keeps him from owning everybody right away and he has his personality here.

xJLxKing
Which is why later on, it didn't work. Barry prepared!!

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Which is why later on, it didn't work. Barry prepared!!
and yet Barry has still been hit by telepathy dozens of times! And what do you know, one showing versus a hundred!

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
and yet Barry has still been hit by telepathy dozens of times! And what do you know, one showing versus a hundred!
I don't remember those times stick out tongue

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I don't remember those times stick out tongue
Guess I didn't read any comics with Barry and Gorilla Grodd then.

Barry is also a horrible example since he would fight to win and knock out Xavier instantly. Zoom would never fight to win, it would be no point in it. How can he teach Xavier a lesson if he's unconscious? (Inb4rapejoke)

Tha C-Master
So does that mean in your opinion that characters like Thor or Surfer could beat him for the majority if he were CIS on? Not saying you said that, just wondering.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So does that mean in your opinion that characters like Thor or Surfer could beat him for the majority if he were CIS on? Not saying you said that, just wondering.
Well, what I miss in my rant of bullshit is that the characters on KMC fight to win. Which makes no sense since their CIS is still supposed to be intact. Which either makes or breaks all of the fights for characters like Zoom who -can- practically own everyone, but are restricted by their own personality.

Bentley
Reed with prep stomps Zoom so hard he becomes Kid Flash.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
- I wonder how many of Zoom's punches are superman level punches. Did Power Girl take a million of them? Did the random Amazon take a hundred? Zoom would never -ever- hit Xavier with a superman level punch. He hit Batman and Superman an equal amount of times, were all his punches the same strength?

- No matter what degree of control Zoom has over himself, he still exists in our timeline for the sake of the plot, zoom *obviously* isn't going to hit everyone he encounters with superman+ punches. however, the fact that he is more than capable of doing such tells me that in a PIS-free environment, it is certainly something he would be doing.

false. zoom exists in his own personal time bubble, which is completely divergent from the 'normal' time line.

KuRuPT Thanosi
i was going to say Thanos... However, I believe him to be low skyfatherish so I won't big grin stick out tongue

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
for the sake of the plot, zoom *obviously* isn't going to hit everyone he encounters with superman+ punches. however, the fact that he is more than capable of doing such tells me that in a PIS-free environment, it is certainly something he would be doing.

false. zoom exists in his own personal time bubble, which is completely divergent from the 'normal' time line.

Why would he? Zoom doesn't kill people. It has absolutely -nothing- to do with the plot, that's how he is. Call it JIS then, Johns Induced Stupidity. Zoom doesn't just kill. There's no reason why he would turn a human to goo. Zoom is not a monster. CIS and PIS are completely different things.

He can still be touched, he exists here alongside us. By Marvel timeline logic, there is no way that we could see him and he could exist in another timeline or time bubble. But okay, my point was that he exists here, on DC earth/The arena which they fight.

Bentley
CIS is actually on if not stated otherwise, and actually losing CIS is making the character almost entirely different.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Why would he? Zoom doesn't kill people. It has absolutely -nothing- to do with the plot, that's how he is. Call it JIS then, Johns Induced Stupidity. Zoom doesn't just kill. There's no reason why he would turn a human to goo. Zoom is not a monster. CIS and PIS are completely different things.

He can still be touched, he exists here alongside us. By Marvel timeline logic, there is no way that we could see him and he could exist in another timeline or time bubble. But okay, my point was that he exists here, on DC earth/The arena which they fight. so the stips of this thread are that zoom will be going easy on everyone he faces, and will not be utilizing his abilities to their max? pretty sure that's not how the rules work, but whatevs.

zoom syncing himself with the normal time line, doesn't change the fact that he still exists in a divergent time bubble. point being: no matter how fast xavier thinks, his thoughts are still contained to the normal time line - whereas zoom is WELL ahead of it

Tha C-Master
The stips can be either/or, I imagined people would chime in CIS or not. If Zoom is CIS he wouldn't really completely kill anybody, not even someone like Spiderman, but we can use that as a point, but you can discuss it any way you like.

Ok so what we have discussed is:

Runner, Despero, Surfer, Xavier, Thanos.

Naija boy
Surfer, Stardust,

Tha C-Master
So Surfer can beat him with CIS off?

Naija boy
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So Surfer can beat him with CIS off?

I think CIS off favors the surfer quite frankly.

psycho gundam
loa

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Naija boy
I think CIS off favors the surfer quite frankly. So Surfer can destroy the battleground? Would he get the chance with Zoom's CIS off?

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer, Stardust,
No. Surfer would be dead before his nano second reactions could do anything. Stronger Than Superman punches at millions of times. He'd be a pile of silver egg shells.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Zeuodin
No. Surfer would be dead before his nano second reactions could do anything. Stronger Than Superman punches at millions of times. He'd be a pile of silver egg shells.

Give it a break Nvr.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Give it a break Nvr.
What the hell kind of grammar is that? Are you saying never give it a break? Are you telling me I can't give my opinion never? Be more specific.

Ambient
Originally posted by Zeuodin
No. Surfer would be dead before his nano second reactions could do anything. Stronger Than Superman punches at millions of times. He'd be a pile of silver egg shells.
Hilarious..
Originally posted by Zeuodin
What the hell kind of grammar is that? Are you saying never give it a break? Are you telling me I can't give my opinion never? Be more specific.
I chuckled a bit...

h1a8
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
So can Xavier's telepathy, a hell of a lot faster.

He can traverse galaxies in like a second no expression

Probably so. But it takes time to initiate the telepathy. But after it is initiated then it is very fast indeed.

Tha C-Master
It is all very quick, but there is a time delay in it, as we discussed in Flash vs Xavier: 123 go! That was 4 years ago.

Lord Feron
Originally posted by Zeuodin
No. Surfer would be dead before his nano second reactions could do anything. Stronger Than Superman punches at millions of times. He'd be a pile of silver egg shells.

madness....

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by h1a8
Probably so. But it takes time to initiate the telepathy. But after it is initiated then it is very fast indeed.

Bingo.

Give Xavier the chance to attack and Zoom is done for. Odds are, Zoom would play around.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Bingo.

Give Xavier the chance to attack and Zoom is done for. Odds are, Zoom would play around.
Odds are he wouldn't. Since combatants have general knowledge about each other.

Tha C-Master
That is a good point, Zoom wouldn't willingly lose either. Not knowing Xavier's abilities.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So Surfer can destroy the battleground? Would he get the chance with Zoom's CIS off?

Surfer has shown to mentally react/think/process at speeds considerably beyond what weve seen Zoom move at. hence im of the opinion that he be able to mentally set up a forcefield before being koed. And that would pretty much be the end of Zoom.



Not really.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer has shown to mentally react at speeds considerably beyond what weve seen Zoom move at. hence im of the opinion that he be able to mentally set up a forcefield before being koed. And that would pretty much be the end of Zoom.



Not really. Do you have any scans of that reaction speed? I'm not so much doubting you as much as I'm curious.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Do you have any scans of that reaction speed? I'm not so much doubting you as much as I'm curious.

Here while racing past billions and billions of stars, he is able to focus on and note the position of each and everyone one them and then use those positions to calculate his location in space. Considering that individial stars are light years apart, for surfer to near instantly race past billions and billions would indicate he be moving far in excess of billions of times lightspeed. And to be able to mentally perceive focus on and,note the position of each of these billions and billions of stars( note that each star appeared only as a spark of light) as well as use these positions to calculate his position in space while moving at the speed he was going at is incredible. Flash was able to fully mentally perceive and react to Zoom when he achieved a level a speed far below what surfer showed to be reacting at in that example.

http://img90.imageshack.us/i/silversurfer199612206jx3.jpg/

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Naija boy
Here while racing past billions and billions of stars, he is able to focus on and note the position of each and everyone one them and then use those positions to calculate his location in space. Considering that individial stars are light years apart, for surfer to near instantly race past billions and billions would indicate he be moving far in excess of billions of times lightspeed. And to be able to mentally perceive focus on and,note the position of each of these billions and billions of stars( note that each star appeared only as a spark of light) as well as use these positions to calculate his position in space while moving at the speed he was going at is incredible. Flash was able to fully mentally perceive and react to Zoom when he achieved a level a speed far below what surfer showed to be reacting at in that example.

http://img90.imageshack.us/i/silversurfer199612206jx3.jpg/
How is that reaction speeds? That seems to have more to do with his cosmic awareness. Wouldn't galactus want to build his heralds so they knew where they were in the universe so they wouldn't get lost?

Naija boy
Originally posted by Zeuodin
How is that reaction speeds? That seems to have more to do with his cosmic awareness. Wouldn't galactus want to build his heralds so they knew where they were in the universe so they wouldn't get lost?

That scan has absolutely no mention of cosmic awareness.He is mentally reacting to focusing on and processing the locations of each of the billions and billions of stars that he is passing by . This is outright stated. Cosmic awareness plays no part in it as if it did he wouldnt have to be mentally teacting and calculating his position in the universe at that level but would rather intuitively already know said position.

Tha C-Master
That is interesting, he is calculating at those speeds, do you think he can fight that fast as well?

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Naija boy
That scan has absolutely no mention of cosmic awareness.He is mentally reacting to focusing on and processing the locations of each of the billions and billions of stars that he is passing by . This is outright stated. Cosmic awareness plays no part in it as if it did he wouldnt have to be mentally teacting and calculating his position in the universe at that level but would rather intuitively already know said position. Where does it say he's calculating anything?

Naija boy
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That is interesting, he is calculating at those speeds, do you think he can fight that fast as well?

I wont go as far as to say he can physically react at those very speeds, but he doesnt need to considering that creation of forcefield is mental process and hence directly in line with the form of speed the scan portrays.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Where does it say he's calculating anything?

Seriously, try actually reading the scan......the calculations he makes are blatantly stated with the words calculations and calculated specifically used.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Naija boy
Seriously, try actually reading the scan......the calculations he makes are blatantly stated with the words calculations and calculated specifically used. So let's assume I am driving a car. And I'm drving 90mph. And from a distance I scan and can calculate where the other cars are in relation to me and drive the car safely. Does that mean I could do that up close? Or in a fight at that speed?

Tha C-Master
You'd have to be able to react to maneuver the car.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You'd have to be able to react to maneuver the car.
From a distance yes.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Zeuodin
So let's assume I am driving a car. And I'm drving 90mph. And from a distance I scan and can calculate where the other cars are in relation to me and drive the car safely. Does that mean I could do that up close? Or in a fight at that speed?

Nonsensical comparison. The surfer incident invlolves billions and billions of stationary objects that he is moving past. In order to at all be relevant or even comparable to the surfer incident, the cars would have to be stationary, u would have to be moving past each car at such speeds that they only apperared to you as a spark of light (or to scale it down lets say a blur), And then u would have to focus on and note the exact position each and every one of those blurred objects and then use those exact positions to calculate the location of your destination........Further to scale it down lets place the number of cars ur moving past at a mere one thousand.

Your example is irrelevant and isnt at all analogus to the surfer incident. Surfers perceptions level and mental processing speed, are a fixed and the same regardless of scenario.

id369
Genis-Vell can beat Zoom.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Zeuodin
From a distance yes. You'd have to include the fact that the vehicle has a lot of size and it takes distance to do any type of special maneuvering the larger the vehicle the harder it is.

h1a8
Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer has shown to mentally react/think/process at speeds considerably beyond what weve seen Zoom move at. hence im of the opinion that he be able to mentally set up a forcefield before being koed. And that would pretty much be the end of Zoom.



Not really.

Being able to think and understand at great speed doesn't mean one can initiate any tactic at the same speed. For example, it may take me 1 half of a second to decide to move a large object. But once I initial that action it could take me 5 seconds to do it.

Wild Shadow
a force field is a mental process not a physical course of actions that would require more time.

hence SS could conceivably raise a shield before zoom could react to stop him.
no expression

chomperx9
so zoom is faster than wally ?

Prep-Man
Has Surfer ever fought at Super speeds like Flash?

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by chomperx9
so zoom is faster than wally ? In a sense he is. He doesn't use "speed" in that way so much as adjusting the time around him pretty much making him "faster" on a consistent basis.

h1a8
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
a force field is a mental process not a physical course of actions that would require more time.

hence SS could conceivably raise a shield before zoom could react to stop him.
no expression

We don't know the mechanism behind creating a forcefield. The entire mechanism could take at least a second for all we know. All I know that it takes energy to do it and usually energy travels at most at the speed of light. It could even take several moments for Surfer to transfer up enough energy to erect a competent force field. Otherwise it would be a soft as paper.

Wild Shadow
you got me with the real life science of energy matter and nothing moving faster then light. erm

but if you want to argue science i have to point out that time and speed is relative... nothing can move faster then light true but from SS perspective he could appear to be reacting and creating something at speeds faster then light to the outside observer even though SS is only creating something at or near light speed.

smart

soooo zoom may not be able to react as fast seeing that it could and would be possible for silver surfer to perceive the universe around him frozen in time due to his speed and processing power.

if u call me out on this and try to argue it false we will have problems and i will link science lectures and animated scenarios explaining the concept to you.
crazy

Tha C-Master
Scientifically we are only able to go on what we know and not what is entirely out there. Who says we can't go faster than light, how do we know there is nothing faster than light? I do agree that pretty much everything is relative.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Scientifically we are only able to go on what we know and not what is entirely out there. Who says we can't go faster than light, how do we know there is nothing faster than light? I do agree that pretty much everything is relative.

umm... common scientific accepted belief. that nothing can travel faster then light...

but u can get around it and make it appear to be faster then light without breaking the universal rule by simple concept that time and space is relative.

u can use a blackhole to create the circumstances that a photon is moving several times the speed of light from the outside observer but in reality light inside the blackhole would still be moving at light speed from its relative position..

its wierd science to exceed light speed u need a blackhole to accelerate it but it the photon is still only moving at light speed from its own relative position..

geek smart wacko confused

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
umm... common scientific accepted belief. that nothing can travel faster then light...

but u can get around it and make it appear to be faster then light without breaking the universal rule by simple concept that time and space is relative.

u can use a blackhole to create the circumstances that a photon is moving several times the speed of light from the outside observer but in reality light inside the blackhole would still be moving at light speed from its relative position..

its wierd science to exceed light speed u need a blackhole to accelerate it but it the photon is still only moving at light speed from its own relative position..

geek smart wacko confused I understand there is nothing we know of at the time faster than light, but we know so little and we haven't even discovered 1/10000000 of everything out there, so it's only based on what we know at the time, kinda like the world if flat type of argument, see what I mean?

Juntai
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I understand there is nothing we know of at the time faster than light, but we know so little and we haven't even discovered 1/10000000 of everything out there, so it's only based on what we know at the time, kinda like the world if flat type of argument, see what I mean? We don't even know the shit on Earth yet, let alone space.

Tha C-Master
Even in a 1,000 years when we think this time is outdated and old, we'll still have so much more to learn.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by chomperx9
so zoom is faster than wally ?
Much, much faster.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Much, much faster. not really.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Starscream M
not really.
Wally couldn't see him.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Wally couldn't see him. mayhaps, but Zoom isn't moving at superspeed...he's just slowing time perception

Galan007
Originally posted by Naija boy
Flash was able to fully mentally perceive and react to Zoom when he achieved a level a speed far below what surfer showed to be reacting at in that example.

http://img90.imageshack.us/i/silversurfer199612206jx3.jpg/ i find this to be quite a baseless statement.

here's a quote from your own scan: "light years traversed in mere seconds." as fast as that may be, the word "seconds" is still a measurement of time. thus we can say beyond reason that time was a factor for surfer in the instance you mentioned.

why is that important enough to bring up? because it was only when wally became amped to such a level that time literally stopped around him, that he was able to momentarily compete with zoom:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3919/zoom1o.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4093/zoom2.jpg
---
in a nutshell: while i will admit that surfer processing that much information is impressive, it was still a feat centered around the parameters of time however, to compete with zoom - time must stop completely.

that is one of the many reasons i maintain that zoom is FAR superior to surfer, speed wise - and one of the many reasons i maintain surfer would not be able to react fast enough to counter a zoom-blitz.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Galan007
i find this to be quite a baseless statement.

here's a quote from your own scan: "light years traversed in mere seconds." as fast as that may be, the word "seconds" is still a measurement of time. thus we can say beyond reason that time was a factor for surfer in the instance you mentioned.

why is that important enough to bring up? because it was only when wally became amped to such a level that time literally stopped around him, that he was able to momentarily compete with zoom:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3919/zoom1o.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4093/zoom2.jpg
---
in a nutshell: while i will admit that surfer processing that much information is impressive, it was still a feat centered around the parameters of time however, to compete with zoom - time must stop completely.

that is one of the many reasons i maintain that zoom is FAR superior to surfer, speed wise, and one of the many reasons i maintain surfer would not be able to react fast enough to counter a zoom-blitz. Interesting to note that Zoom's Durability while in his time bubble has to be quite high. Wally punches him at SuperSpeed and it only bloodies his lip.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Interesting to note that Zoom's Durability while in his time bubble has to be quite high. Wally punches him at SuperSpeed and it only bloodies his lip. Wouldn't they be equals in that scenario, he says so himself. Everything would cancel out and they'd be like two normal guys hitting each other.

shokosugi
one hand baby.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/7223/z6zs5.jpg

Tha C-Master
So badass, and I like how they do his dialogue.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So badass, and I like how they do his dialogue.
Zoom was the awesomeness in Johns' hands.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Galan007
i find this to be quite a baseless statement.

here's a quote from your own scan: "light years traversed in mere seconds." as fast as that may be, the word "seconds" is still a measurement of time. thus we can say beyond reason that time was a factor for surfer in the instance you mentioned.

why is that important enough to bring up? because it was only when wally became amped to such a level that time literally stopped around him, that he was able to momentarily compete with zoom:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3919/zoom1o.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4093/zoom2.jpg
---
in a nutshell: while i will admit that surfer processing that much information is impressive, it was still a feat centered around the parameters of time however, to compete with zoom - time must stop completely.

that is one of the many reasons i maintain that zoom is FAR superior to surfer, speed wise - and one of the many reasons i maintain surfer would not be able to react fast enough to counter a zoom-blitz. you realize zoom used the concept of time to explain their position in relative time and space the tick of a second.. angel

by that argument alone facepalm ur statement on SS is mote. since all time is relative regardless of situation.
if zoom and wally are confined within a tick of a second how long would it be for him to count all the stars that surfer observed. how much time would pass outside of zoom's relative space in time?clapping

Galan007
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
you realize zoom used the concept of time to explain their position in relative time and space the tick of a second.. angel

by that argument alone facepalm ur statement on SS is mote. since all time is relative regardless of situation.
if zoom and wally are confined within a tick of a second how long would it be for him to count all the stars that surfer observed. how much time would pass outside of zoom's relative space in time?clapping

zoom clearly used the phrase: "we are locked between the ticks of a second" to describe the fact that time itself had stopped for them.

why else would wally say: "i'm standing still in time" ? why else would zoom say: "we are immortal" ?

Tha C-Master
I admit although it does say clearly they are locked in time, locked between ticks of a second has been used in literature to sometimes denote moving slowly, so I could see some confusion there if one were to glance at it.

Galan007
true. although there were a few other statements made which pretty much spell it out.

more proof can been seen when the speed wally stole from the others begins wearing off. meaning: once wally starts moving in time again he begins loosing his grip on the battle.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Galan007
i find this to be quite a baseless statement.

here's a quote from your own scan: "light years traversed in mere seconds." as fast as that may be, the word "seconds" is still a measurement of time. thus we can say beyond reason that time was a factor for surfer in the instance you mentioned.

why is that important enough to bring up? because it was only when wally became amped to such a level that time literally stopped around him, that he was able to momentarily compete with zoom:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3919/zoom1o.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4093/zoom2.jpg
---
in a nutshell: while i will admit that surfer processing that much information is impressive, it was still a feat centered around the parameters of time however, to compete with zoom - time must stop completely.

that is one of the many reasons i maintain that zoom is FAR superior to surfer, speed wise - and one of the many reasons i maintain surfer would not be able to react fast enough to counter a zoom-blitz.

When Wally and Zoom begin fighting all over the world, however, he mentions that his fight with Zoom had gone on for less than a second.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg
Hence he uses "less than a second" as a frame of reference to indicate how long (length of time) their fight had been going on and why his fellow heroes couldnt help him. In other words time was actually moving at this point but they were moving so fast that no one else on the world could help flash.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Naija boy
When Wally and Zoom begin fighting all over the world, however, he mentions that his fight with Zoom had gone on for less than a second.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg
Hence he uses "less than a second" as a frame of reference to indicate how long (length of time) their fight had been going on and why his fellow heroes couldnt help him. In other words time was actually moving at this point but they were moving so fast that no one else on the world could help flash.
They were slowing down.

Also, the second is used to describe their entire fight from the start to the point where Zoom says they are immortal and finally where he states it's been a second.

Galan007
Originally posted by Naija boy
When Wally and Zoom begin fighting all over the world, however, he mentions that his fight with Zoom had gone on for less than a second.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg
Hence he uses "less than a second" as a frame of reference to indicate how long (length of time) their fight had been going on and why his fellow heroes couldnt help him. In other words time was actually moving at this point but they were moving so fast that no one else on the world could help flash. i figured you would mention this.

if you look at the second panel of the scan you posted, wally also says: "i can already feel the speed i stole from jesse being used up. i'm slowing down."

meaning: by that time in the battle, wally's amp was running out - he had began moving in time again. that's while you'll notice zoom beginning to regain the edge. compare that to when wally initially received the amp and you'll find they were near equals.

Kris Blaze
What's more odd than anything is that Jessy, Bart and Jay's speed let Wally become fast enough to reach the speed max required to match Zoom. The speed of those three should not make the gap from not being able to see Zoom to being able to fight him evenly.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
What's more odd than anything is that Jessy, Bart and Jay's speed let Wally become fast enough to reach the speed max required to match Zoom. The speed of those three should not make the gap from not being able to see Zoom to being able to fight him evenly. They should have given him the power to tap even more into the speed force as Galan stated

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
They should have given him the power to tap even more into the speed force as Galan stated
Sounds like a load to me. Wally should already have -far- greater control/connection with the speed force than they do. He gained speed from them, never once did I see it stated that it allowed him to tap into the speed force even more.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Sounds like a load to me. Wally should already have -far- greater control/connection with the speed force than they do. He gained speed from them, never once did I see it stated that it allowed him to tap into the speed force even more.
That girl gave him the formula, thus his access to the speed force should increase. It should be like that for all of them.


Also, Wally wasn't as fast as Zoom even then(imo). He was just able to see him.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Galan007
i figured you would mention this.

if you look at the second panel of the scan you posted, wally also says: "i can already feel the speed i stole from jesse being used up. i'm slowing down."

meaning: by that time in the battle, wally's amp was running out - he had began moving in time again. that's while you'll notice zoom beginning to regain the edge. compare that to when wally initially received the amp and you'll find they were near equals.

Indeed wally does mention that he is slowing down. However, he only mentions this after already indicating that time was indeed passing. Hence even using your argument, when exactly time began passing is ambiguous.

However, that is ultimately irrelevant. What is relevant however is the fact that during a period in which time was moving (the whole duration of their fight around the world), Wally was able to reasonably perceive and react to Zoom (Zoom was still faster). Hence even assuming that to equal Zoom in speed, time has to stop, we know it is still possible to perceive and react to him fairly well without time stopping. Given the details we know of flashes battle with Zoom, even at best estimations they werent moving faster than Surfer in the scan i showed to demonstrate his perception speed. Hence the reason i think that Surfer would be able to set up the FF before being koed.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
never once did I see it stated that it allowed him to tap into the speed force even more. http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/874/zoom1c.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
Indeed wally does mention that he is slowing down. However, he only mentions this after already indicating that time was indeed passing. Hence even using your argument, when exactly time began passing is ambiguous.

However, that is ultimately irrelevant. What is relevant however is the fact that during a period in which time was moving (the whole duration of their fight around the world), Wally was able to reasonably perceive and react to Zoom (Zoom was still faster). Hence even assuming that to equal Zoom in speed, time has to stop, we know it is still possible to perceive and react to him fairly well without time stopping. Given the details we know of flashes battle with Zoom, even at best estimations they werent moving faster than Surfer in the scan i showed to demonstrate his perception speed. Hence the reason i think that Surfer would be able to set up the FF before being koed. wally makes the "less than a second" statement the panel before he states that he is slowing down. c'mon, stop digging.

i also think you may be forgetting that the "whole duration of their fight" also included an adjustment period, in which wally was becoming acclimated to his newly received boost. then, with time stopped around them, they battled for a few pages - and finally, wally makes a statement that he was slowing down/it has been less than a second. context.

it all comes down to what i've reiterated several times: when wally was amped and time stopped, he could perceive/match zoom. when the amp began wearing off, and time was no longer frozen around wally, he lost any 'edge' he may have had.

so unless surfer can operate at such levels that time stops around him, i cannot see him doing... anything at all, before zoom blitzes him.

kgkg
I was going to comment on this thread but it's already 6 pages deep sad

h1a8
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
you got me with the real life science of energy matter and nothing moving faster then light. erm

but if you want to argue science i have to point out that time and speed is relative... nothing can move faster then light true but from SS perspective he could appear to be reacting and creating something at speeds faster then light to the outside observer even though SS is only creating something at or near light speed.

smart

soooo zoom may not be able to react as fast seeing that it could and would be possible for silver surfer to perceive the universe around him frozen in time due to his speed and processing power.

if u call me out on this and try to argue it false we will have problems and i will link science lectures and animated scenarios explaining the concept to you.
crazy

I don't believe the speed of light is the maximum speed in comics or real life. I don't accept the theory of relativity so FTL talk is all game with me. I wasn't saying that energy MUST travel at most light speed. I'm just saying that it USUALLY does so it is reasonable that it does in this case. I can most certainly accept that Surfer transferring energy FTL. But I will need proof of it and not speculation.

Tha C-Master
So the current argument is whether or not Zoom can operate at the point where time is completely stopped?Originally posted by kgkg
I was going to comment on this thread but it's already 6 pages deep sad You kinda did comment. stick out tongue Tell us what is on your mind. smile

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So the current argument is whether or not Zoom can operate at the point where time is completely stopped? You kinda did comment. stick out tongue Tell us what is on your mind. smile
He can! stated

Galan007
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So the current argument is whether or not Zoom can operate at the point where time is completely stopped? no. zoom incontrovertibly operates at that level

the question at hand is whether or not surfer is able to react fast enough to defend against zoom.

Tha C-Master
I'm just making sure that's what is being discussed, unless we are just discussing Flash's speed.

john allerdyce
Originally posted by Galan007
the question at hand is whether or not surfer is able to react fast enough to defend against zoom. No way. I wouldn't even place Surfer equal to Wally's standard reaction speed, let alone a mega amped Wally, let alone Zoom.

shokosugi
SS is NOT beating Zoom

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Galan007
no. zoom incontrovertibly operates at that level

the question at hand is whether or not surfer is able to react fast enough to defend against zoom. That is part of his power set, my confusion was coming in at whether or not Naija Boy was disagreeing with this. Maybe I misread the argument. Or whether he was arguing Flash going that fast.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by shokosugi
SS is NOT beating Zoom Who under skyfather can then or under mid tier with a day of prep.

I say Reed might be up to the task with that much prep time.

shokosugi
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Who under skyfather can then or under mid tier with a day of prep.

I say Reed might be up to the task with that much prep time.


Classic Dr. Strange

Tha C-Master
Would Strange be considered under skyfather? He sounds like he's pushing it.

So in your opinion are the only people who can beat Zoom are the ones who have a mastery over time and space?

shokosugi
probably

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/874/zoom1c.jpg

Yes, she grants him more speed. The same thing happened in Terminal Velocity as well, he stopped time by going faster than light and saying the speed formula. It didn't increase his connection to the speed force. Then again, the two are practically the same. But it's not a different application of his powers, he's just getting faster.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Yes, she grants him more speed. The same thing happened in Terminal Velocity as well, he stopped time by going faster than light and saying the speed formula. It didn't increase his connection to the speed force. Then again, the two are practically the same. But it's not a different application of his powers, he's just getting faster. "jesse triggers her connection to the speed force through me.."

either way, that part of things is moot. the point is: time around flash stopped.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by shokosugi
probably So if Reed prepped an indestructible force field and froze time he should be safe, assuming by this statement.

Galan007
maybe.

assuming reed was fast enough to: a.) trigger the force field, and b.) stop time through... whatever the means may be - doubt reed is that fast though.

also assuming zoom didn't speed up his time bubble to essentially become faster than the timestream - which he is capable of.

shokosugi
yeah if Reed took a huge dump and the smell is bad enough to kill Zoom. that would also do it.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Galan007
maybe.

assuming reed was fast enough to: a.) trigger the force field, and b.) stop time through... whatever the means may be - doubt reed is that fast though.

also assuming zoom didn't speed up his time bubble to essentially become faster than the timestream - which he is capable of. If he prepped I imagine he would have it ready prematurely, but if that is the case then he wouldn't be fast enough to push the button, unless he had an "instant" way to do that. Which he might.

Galan007
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
If he prepped I imagine he would have it ready prematurely, but if that is the case then he wouldn't be fast enough to push the button, unless he had an "instant" way to do that. Which he might. the term "instant" really has no meaning to those who can move as fast or slow as they want in time.

Tha C-Master
True, so he'd really just have to have it activated before hand, or have it activate instantly which really should mean "no time" and hope he can afford a hit from Zoom who might be trying to "strengthen him".

shokosugi
C-Master you're funny

Tha C-Master
I'm a regular standup.

Another possibility is if Reed had a contingency set up to activate the forcefield right away, something that is within his abilities. Otherwise he's smoked CIS off.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Galan007
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/874/zoom1c.jpg

wally makes the "less than a second" statement the panel before he states that he is slowing down. c'mon, stop digging.

i also think you may be forgetting that the "whole duration of their fight" also included an adjustment period, in which wally was becoming acclimated to his newly received boost. then, with time stopped around them, they battled for a few pages - and finally, wally makes a statement that he was slowing down/it has been less than a second. context.

it all comes down to what i've reiterated several times: when wally was amped and time stopped, he could perceive/match zoom. when the amp began wearing off, and time was no longer frozen around wally, he lost any 'edge' he may have had.

so unless surfer can operate at such levels that time stops around him, i cannot see him doing... anything at all, before zoom blitzes him.

Whoa, Im not "digging" at all. I was even giving a scenario were we would go with ur argument. You seemed to assume that the less than a second comment ( and hence the passage of time) was only in relation to the period when Wally had started slowing down. However, Wally made that comment and hence indicated time was passing,before mentioning that that he had started slowing down. This would indicate the passage of time before he started slowing down. Conversely, we could assume that Wally began slowing down and time began to pass as a result(as u seem to want to do) and therefore only informed us of it after he and Zoom had circled the world a dozen times and were well into their fight. Such a side argument however would still not be relevant, because even assuming that time began to pass only because Wally began slowing down, Wally was still able to reasonably perceive and react to Zoom (Zoom was indeed faster but Wally could still fully perceive him) during the period he was slowing down (regardless of whether u take it to be when he mentioned it or as soon as time began to pass).

Im not forgetting anything nor leaving out any context.If time began to pass only as Wally slowed down, then his use of a measurement of time to describe the length of their fight would apply to the period in which time was actually passing-i.e their fight around the world. The same logic would apply if we instead assumed that wally slowing down and the passage of time are not dependent on one another, hence his use of a measurement of time to describe the length of their fight would still only apply to the period time was actually passing i.e their fight around the world. Ultimately though this is once again inconsequential

Ur conclusion is incomplete. Yes it is only when Wally was amped that he could match Zoom. Yes when the amp began wearing off he lost the apparent "edge" (he was no longer as fast) he might have had. However to reiterate it once more, the bottom line is that during the period that he was slowing down and in which time was moving (regardless of the relationship between the two) Wally was able to perceive and react to Zoom reasonably well (though Zoom was faster). This speed level and consequently perception speed level at which he was able to perceive Zoom was < that displayed by surfer in my example.

Therefore surfer doesnt need to operate at levels in which time stops around him (whatever those are) in order to perceive or mentally react to Zoom. Wally showed that.

chomperx9
wally has created time portals before with his speed there for he can go at any point at any time like zoom

Prep-Man
Originally posted by john allerdyce
No way. I wouldn't even place Surfer equal to Wally's standard reaction speed, let alone a mega amped Wally, let alone Zoom.

QFT!

shokosugi
Najia. SS is no match against Zoom.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by chomperx9
wally has created time portals before with his speed there for he can go at any point at any time like zoom If I recall Barry did that very early in his appearance, like the first or second issue.

Galan007
Originally posted by Naija boy
Ur conclusion is incomplete. Yes it is only when Wally was amped that he could match Zoom. Yes when the amp began wearing off he lost the apparent "edge" (he was no longer as fast) he might have had. However to reiterate it once more, the bottom line is that during the period that he was slowing down and in which time was moving (regardless of the relationship between the two) Wally was able to perceive and react to Zoom reasonably well (though Zoom was faster). This speed level and consequently perception speed level at which he was able to perceive Zoom was < that displayed by surfer in my example.

Therefore surfer doesnt need to operate at levels in which time stops around him (whatever those are) in order to perceive or mentally react to Zoom. Wally showed that. you seem to be of the opinion that wally was able to react to zoom in an offensive/defensive way, without a full amp. he wasn't. hell, even when wally was amped with the powers of jay and bart, he could still barely perceive zoom as a blur - let alone react to him. again: it was only when wally was amped to the point where time around him actually stopped, that he could respond accordingly to zoom's movements. once that amp began wearing off... well you get the gist.


as for the surfer scan you keep clinging to: can you please show me a single scan depicting him reacting to an opponent on zoom's speed-level in battle? because i seem to remember the runner toying with surfer like a weak feeb - a showing which certainly contradicts your entire argument.

Tha C-Master
So Galan, what is your ultimate verdict on Surfer vs Zoom CIS on and off?

Galan007
CIS on - meaning zoom isn't out to kill surfer? there's a good chance he might slip up there and allow surfer to win.

CIS off - meaning zoom is essentially bloodlusted/out to kill? imo, he'd be blitzing surfer with >>> flash speed, along with superman level+ punches before surfer had nearly enough time to react.

Tha C-Master
So CIS off is a stomp before Surfer can get away and use his planet busting tactics right?

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So CIS off is a stomp before Surfer can get away and use his planet busting tactics right?
He'd be knocked out before he even thought about it.

Mindset
facepalm

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Zeuodin
He'd be knocked out before he even thought about it. I would ask how many punches it would take, but I'm imagining it would be too fast to even matter. So in your words a curbstomp for Surfer in those conditions?

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I would ask how many punches it would take, but I'm imagining it would be too fast to even matter. So in your words a curbstomp for Surfer in those conditions?
It's really simple. Imagine Superman with a slight Sun amp moving faster than anyone could ever hope to imagine. Hitting someone before they could react. Zoom without PIS would Beat Surfer Senseless before the fight could even be registered.

Tha C-Master
Ok, I was clarifying, so Surfer can not only react, but he can't see the Onslaught at all either. That seems like a little bit more than a slight Sun Amp.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Ok, I was clarifying, so Surfer can not only react, but he can't see the Onslaught at all either. That seems like a little bit more than a slight Sun Amp. Wally is faster than Surfer. He couldn't. Wonder Woman has been hit by a sun amped Superman before. She says Zoom hits harder. Combine that level of power and that level of Speed and No one shot of a Skyfather is going to be standing long enough after the initial blitz to do anything about it.

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