Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This is a vitally important question. What caused the fall of Anakin Skywalker, an event that has had arguably the largest single set of ramifications in Galactic history?

I firmly believe that there were many factors that led to Anakin's decline into the evil Darth Vader, from Palpatine's machinations to Anakin's own inner darkness. However, it is clear that there is one major individual responsible for the transformation of one of the most powerful Jedi in history into the chief destroyer of the Jedi Order. That individual?

Ki-Adi-Mundi.

This vile individual had the chance to arrest Anakin's decline for two critically important reasons.

Firstly - one of Anakin's key sticking points was that his love and marriage of Padme was forbidden. This is true - except in the case of our dastardly Cerean. Why is this?

The man had not only one wife - he had four. This is a 400% increase in Anakin's wives at the time of his fall.

To add some context: this is like Anakin being able to get with Padme, as well as Ahsoka Tano, Shaak Ti, and Aayla Secura. The guy had his own conehead harem!

Well, that's pretty bad - but Ki-Adi has nothing to do with Anakin's second issue, does he? He surely wouldn't have been promoted to the rank of Jedi Master without fully training a padawan, right?

Wrong.

This crazy guy got away with it, flying in the face of Jedi tradition at the time.

All he had to do was speak up at that fateful council meeting - but he didn't. He could have vouched for Anakin, or at least raised the issue of special treatment. But he didn't.

He only piped up to say something wrong (e.g. Darth Maul not a Sith, Dooku not a Sith), which leads to an ancillary issue of Mundi possibly being a Sith agent.

Exhibit A.

Exhibit B.

In summation: more than any other single individual, it is the contention of this post that Ki-Adi-Mundi is the individual mostly responsible for Anakin's fall.

Uhhhhhhhhhhh . . .Okay . . . .

I'm just gonna keep it simple, and say that Palpy was responsible. He's the one that fed ANAKIN all the BS, and ANAKIN was dumb enough to believe him....so I guess, it's both their faults to be precise.

Palpy: I have the power to save the one you love.
(Anakin cuts off Mace's arm, he gets thrown out the window.)

Then all the sudden-
Palpy: To cheat death, the power only one has achieve, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.


Right then and there, Anakin should have been like "I thought you already knew the secret" AKA he should have realize that he was being played.

You see, I love ROTS, but this is one aspect of the movie I hated, because it made Anakin look like a complete idiot.

I see some EU in the OP I believe...queeq, you're slacking.

Either way, isn't it kind of like a suicide victim? Not one single event can be blamed or be the cause, it was everything building up since foreverish. Bad childhood as a slave, started as a Jedi late, mother died in his arms, fell in love with Padme and had the huge risk of losing her, the Clone Wars in general, a politician with the possible solution to cheat death. All these things and more were factors into him falling. Not just one person or event.

Yes, alot of things were building up, but Palps took all those things and put them into motion. Anakin was a hot head, but in a matter of one scene, he goes from a lifetime of being a Jedi, to a Sith, in a literal heartbeat.

Palpatine put him on the council knowing the Jedi wouldn't grant him the rank of a master, and he knew it would tick Anakin off and he would grow to resent the Jedi. I agree Anakin had a tough life early on, but if it weren't for Sidious, who would have taken on Anakin as an apprentice, or fed him a bunch of bull that ultimately lead him to turn his back on the Jedi?

Only one persion is responsible: Anakin himself. He made tha choice between right and wrong. Both points of view were amply presented to him and he chose.

queeq!

No warning about EU? You're not getting old on me are ya?

His mother is to blame for not getting an abortion...

No, I think he is getting bored with Star Wars. Such a shame.

Well... the reference was minor and not very crucial. But if I can please you all: NO EU!!!


There, done it.

I feel much better now. Order is still kept!

Originally posted by Jedireaper
His mother is to blame for not getting an abortion...

That was really uncalled for.

yes, that is harsh

If the force created Anakin, then that would be impossible

Even by the Antiforce?

If antimatter exists, then yes

I always thought Palpy's little explanation on Darth Plagueis being able to "create life" was a hint, and it's pretty made out to be that he was the Emperor's master. Just looking at his face when he tells Anakin the story gives it away, and the little glances he gives him too. Perfectly executed without coming out and stating a fact one way or the other. It's pretty much GL's way of letting the audience draw their own conclusions.

So yeah, the force created Anakin most likely because somebody manipulated it.

I dunno... the whole thing is weird anyway. Who conceived Anakin: the Force or the midichlorians? In TPM both arguments are given by QGJ. So are we then to think Shmi got injected with an overdose of midichlorians or something?

Complicated isn't it? lol What is sounds like to me is that somebody used "the force" to manipulate or influence the midichlorians "to create life" as Papatine put it.

So the way I see it, the Force is Anakin's father because it was manipulated to change the midichlorians, but somebody had to have been controlling the force for this to happen.

Plageus influenced the midiclorians to create Anakin.

It just gets worse all the time. I only wished Lucas never dragged these bloody midi's into the saga. And why???? Oh why??? We never hear from them again...

I think midichilorians were first brought in as an excuse for Obi-Wan to say the line "His readings are off the chart" It gave GL a reason to have Anakin different form everyone else I guess.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
I'm just gonna keep it simple, and say that Palpy was responsible. He's the one that fed ANAKIN all the BS, and ANAKIN was dumb enough to believe him....so I guess, it's both their faults to be precise.

Palpy: I have the power to save the one you love.
(Anakin cuts off Mace's arm, he gets thrown out the window.)

Then all the sudden-
Palpy: To cheat death, the power only one has achieve, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.


Right then and there, Anakin should have been like "I thought you already knew the secret" AKA he should have realize that he was being played.

You see, I love ROTS, but this is one aspect of the movie I hated, because it made Anakin look like a complete idiot.

I don't see why. Palpatine had been working on Anakin for 13 years, since the first day he met him on Naboo, promising to 'watch his career with great interest.' He gained Anakin trust over the ensuing years, subconsciously playing the father figure he knew Anakin always wanted. He confused Anakin mind about what the right way for a Jedi to act was - if it's to think of others, Anakin mistook that for acting to save his secret wife. Anakin did turn him in to the council, but agonized over the Chancellor's possible death without getting his secret knowledge. Emotions overrode his reason when he cut off Mace Windu's arm, and from that moment he was hooked for good - though he knew he was committing a terrible crime, he couldn't stop himself trying to save Padme.

Originally posted by queeq
It just gets worse all the time. I only wished Lucas never dragged these bloody midi's into the saga. And why???? Oh why??? We never hear from them again...

It makes sense for the Jedi to have some scientific test to measure force potential. The Jedi sit in the middle of an intergalactic bureaucracy, the acting hands of the Chancellor and the Senate. They get their funding from them, and I think Senate members would want to see something beyond a Jedi's intuition as to how they recruit, how many members they have etc. The force is not easily understood by many. So the Jedi devise tests to show force potential to justify their recruits. We see it's necessary to play the political game to advance up in the council and to keep favour with the politicians - something Qui-Gon never did, which is what kept him off the council.

I know that official explanation. But it's a stupid plot device and a bad move altogether.

Someone said it very well like this:

In the OT Jedi were being defined by what they did.
In the PT Jedi were being defined by what they were biologically.

The latter means: you are a Jedi by having a superior biology. Sort of an ubermensch. Which makes sense in the PT since the Jedi don't seem to care at all about peace and justice. They are stoic, uncaring, talk a lot, are rude to newcomers and care more about taxation and border disputes than releasing slaves on a backwater planet.

The way I take it, the higher your midichilorians are, the more force sensitive you are.

The thing I thought was weird with the PT was that if you are to become a Jedi, you apparently have to start training as a small kid. Luke never did this, and he still learned to use the force and become a Jedi.

Anakin turned to the dark side because he knew his kids were gonna be kissing and were into incest and thus he became Darth Vader and no longer a Skywalker

Maybe he just wanted to watch, which proves he was evil from the start.

But that's already clear from TPM (where he steals an awful lot of parts to build a pod racer and a droid) and AOTC (where's he whiny, insolent, arrogant, disobedient, prefers a dictatorship to force people into a certain way of life and likes to kill women and children).

Sounds like AOTC and ROTS

Incest...turning family members over to the dark side...plus they have cookies

Exactly. Lucas could have done so much and left us with these three PT films...

I agree in the sense that more could have been shown. There are aspects that disappointed me as I feel like Obi-Wan and Grievous was a complete waste of time when he should have been more of integrated part of Anakin's fall.

Mustafar was an excuse to create a colorful, menacing CGI world so the duel would look epic, when in all reality, the duel should have taken place at the Jedi temple. It would have a made more sense since Anakin is fighting to destroy the Jedi, and Obi-Wan is trying to save whats left of it. Build an actual set of a temple, light it with a dark, chiling atmosphere, rig sparks and explosvies in that set so things look like the are naturally breaking apart and being destroyed. It would have worked just fine.

Despite it's flaws though....I still love it. It's Star Wars. It wasn't perfect, but I loved it. I think Lucas nailed aspects of Episode 3 that were missing from the first 2.

ROTS was the best of the PT, I agree. But there are some serious irrepairable faults in the PT.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
I agree in the sense that more could have been shown. There are aspects that disappointed me as I feel like Obi-Wan and Grievous was a complete waste of time when he should have been more of integrated part of Anakin's fall.

Mustafar was an excuse to create a colorful, menacing CGI world so the duel would look epic, when in all reality, the duel should have taken place at the Jedi temple. It would have a made more sense since Anakin is fighting to destroy the Jedi, and Obi-Wan is trying to save whats left of it. Build an actual set of a temple, light it with a dark, chiling atmosphere, rig sparks and explosvies in that set so things look like the are naturally breaking apart and being destroyed. It would have worked just fine.

Despite it's flaws though....I still love it. It's Star Wars. It wasn't perfect, but I loved it. I think Lucas nailed aspects of Episode 3 that were missing from the first 2.

Ive said this many times before. The novelization for ROTS was 10 times better than the movie. And they had to have it on Mustafar, how else was Anakin going to get fried to a crisp and need the suit? Im glad it wasnt in the temple. And I agree, I love it too because its Star Wars but the OT far outshines the PT in my book.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
The way I take it, the higher your midichilorians are, the more force sensitive you are.

The thing I thought was weird with the PT was that if you are to become a Jedi, you apparently have to start training as a small kid. Luke never did this, and he still learned to use the force and become a Jedi.

Yeah, well we see now what a risky move it was to train Luke at all. There was a lot more behind Yoda's statement in ESB about Luke being too old to start serious training. It was Obi Wan pushing it, because of the truth hidden from Luke at that time - he was Vader son, and had the same amount of force sensitivity as his father. But his father started training late too, and it wasn't enough to stop his fall. But these are the extreme measures you are pushed to, when you are part of a Jedi Order that's nearly extinct, with a Galactic Empire ready to kill you at any sign you're alive. You're pressed to find suitable young candidates because you can't go out and get them openly. So they gambled with Luke - and thankfully passed the test his father couldn't.

SMX did you read the book?

Unfortunately no.

I'm sure the book describes in great detail everything, but to me, I feel like all the important things should be spelled out in the film, even though there is limited time to do so.

While I loved the novelization...I loved the movie just as much...however, I must respectfully disagree with a lot of your points SMX

Well do tell. It's all good, but I'm interested to here. I like listening to everyone's viewpoints.

Hey pal, before you come down on me, I've done nothing but support Lucas on here for 6 years, and if you bothered to read anything I've written, I love the PT!

For once on here, I come out and say the things I thought could be particularly different, and now everyone said Lucas gets it right. Anytime I said Lucas got something right, everybody said he got it wrong. This was the first time in 6 years I've openly admitted to something that didn't make sense to me, but I also stated that I liked it nonetheless.

I don't think you've seen all the stuff I've written on here year after year supporting GL. I've been the first one to come on here and say they are his movies, and that he did everything he could to do the best job possible, and I love them the way they are.

I was simply offering alternatives visions, and ways that to me would have been more believable. That's about it.

I don't believe his movies are stupid, nor did I ever say they were.
I'm sure there's a few certain members on here who can back me up and say that I'm anything but a Lucas basher. Those members know who they are, and I would love it if they came forward and back me up on that.

Yeah, Lucas works in metaphors. I like Mustafar, but sometimes less is more. My idea of the temple is not the same that was used in the Star Wars films, which were more animated than real. I admit, I would like to have seen the end battle take place at the temple, but one that was a real life set piece. Take for example this comparison. http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/7243/sidebyside.th.png

While I think Mustafar looks awesome, I would totally prefer the dark atmospheric look that was presented in ESB. I thought if they had built a set piece like this, rigged it with smoke, fire, dark, eeriness, it would have done more justice than the colorful Mustafar, as beautiful as Mustafar looked, and as goreous as it was, certain parts like Anakin riding the droid and them battling on the platform looked horribly unfinished. Again, that's not say I hated it, because bottom line is, I still liked it. But I would have totally preferred the eerie look during the end duel, especially at a place which signifies what Anakin and the Emperor are trying to destroy, and what Yoda and Obi-Wan are trying to save in metaphorical terms.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Hey pal, before you come down on me, I've done nothing but support Lucas on here for 6 years, and if you bothered to read anything I've written, I love the PT!

For once on here, I come out and say the things I thought could be particularly different, and now everyone said Lucas gets it right. Anytime I said Lucas got something right, everybody said he got it wrong. This was the first time in 6 years I've openly admitted to something that didn't make sense to me, but I also stated that I liked it nonetheless.

I don't think you've seen all the stuff I've written on here year after year supporting GL. I've been the first one to come on here and say they are his movies, and that he did everything he could to do the best job possible, and I love them the way they are.

I was simply offering alternatives visions, and ways that to me would have been more believable. That's about it.

I don't believe his movies are stupid, nor did I ever say they were.
I'm sure there's a few certain members on here who can back me up and say that I'm anything but a Lucas basher. Those members know who they are, and I would love it if they came forward and back me up on that.

I'll back up this post 100%. And roughrider get over yourself with the "Jesus some people cannot let things go" comment. SMX has never been that kind of poster. He's always respectful of other peoples posts which obviously you arent.

And SMX Im not a fan of EU, you know that, but seriously thats one book you've GOT to read. It's excellent.

hi JP

My t!ts are still better

mines bigger..hehe

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Hey pal, before you come down on me, I've done nothing but support Lucas on here for 6 years, and if you bothered to read anything I've written, I love the PT!

For once on here, I come out and say the things I thought could be particularly different, and now everyone said Lucas gets it right. Anytime I said Lucas got something right, everybody said he got it wrong. This was the first time in 6 years I've openly admitted to something that didn't make sense to me, but I also stated that I liked it nonetheless.

I don't think you've seen all the stuff I've written on here year after year supporting GL. I've been the first one to come on here and say they are his movies, and that he did everything he could to do the best job possible, and I love them the way they are.

I was simply offering alternatives visions, and ways that to me would have been more believable. That's about it.

I don't believe his movies are stupid, nor did I ever say they were.
I'm sure there's a few certain members on here who can back me up and say that I'm anything but a Lucas basher. Those members know who they are, and I would love it if they came forward and back me up on that.

I was addressing Lucas bashers in general.

I disagree with your choice of locations for the duel, because it matters as much to the subtext of the story. The clash between Yoda & Palpatine was just as significant for it's location - the senate chamber. The seat of power in the galaxy. Palpatine force-hurling senate seats at Yoda shows how whole worlds are within his grasp now. And the winner will control the fate of all the Republic systems.

I recognize you're not quite like the others with your avatar & signature. I just don't think Lucas went through this when he made the sequels in the OT - the worse griping he got from fans were that those Ewoks were kind of annoying. Now, I've been listening to fans relentlessly second guess him ever since the Special Editions came out. Part of the reason I don't spend much time here.
I think answers to questions can be found in the films, if you think long enough about it.

Well I like that approach alot better. Thank you.

And I understand entirely what you're saying about metaphorical storytelling in terms of Mustafar. I does reflect Anakin's torment as you stated, and yes, it is 100 percent cool storytelling.

I know Anakin was sent their as a means of performing task for the Emperor to prove his loyalties. It's here that I just think things got slightly rushed a bit. While I think ROTS is by far one of the best Star Wars films made, I just didn't like Grievous as a character, and the whole Utapau boga riding stuff kind of looked bad.

In Episode II, I immensely enjoyed Obi-Wan's storyline on Kaminio. In Episode III, I just didn't care much for Utapau, but everything else in my opinion was excellent, even Mustafar. I just thought it could have more signigance other than General Grievous introducing it to us with the voice acting done by Mathew Wood, probably my least favorite thing about the prequels, other than Jar Jar.

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
mines bigger..hehe

Bigger isn't always better And this is a perfect example of that

Hiya Jack! and for the record I dont care for either of those avs.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Yeah, Lucas works in metaphors. I like Mustafar, but sometimes less is more. My idea of the temple is not the same that was used in the Star Wars films, which were more animated than real. I admit, I would like to have seen the end battle take place at the temple, but one that was a real life set piece. Take for example this comparison. http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/7243/sidebyside.th.png

While I think Mustafar looks awesome, I would totally prefer the dark atmospheric look that was presented in ESB. I thought if they had built a set piece like this, rigged it with smoke, fire, dark, eeriness, it would have done more justice than the colorful Mustafar, as beautiful as Mustafar looked, and as goreous as it was, certain parts like Anakin riding the droid and them battling on the platform looked horribly unfinished. Again, that's not say I hated it, because bottom line is, I still liked it. But I would have totally preferred the eerie look during the end duel, especially at a place which signifies what Anakin and the Emperor are trying to destroy, and what Yoda and Obi-Wan are trying to save in metaphorical terms.

You know if you're going to compare, then it should be The Empire Strikes Back & Attack Of The Clones. Both are the middle parts of the trilogies, and both have lightsabers duels that take place in dark, gloomy environments. Remember the Anakin-Dooku duel that was virtually in the dark? We'd see their faces illuminated by lightsabers clashes. Murkiness works for the story in both cases - Luke thinks he's straight up fighting Darth Vader, not realizing the game Vader is playing with him and what he's going to spring on him. In AOTC, Dooku finally reveals himself to be a Sith, and the Jedi trio (Anakin, Obi Wan & Yoda) are left feeling unbalanced about what's happening in the galaxy around them. Intrigue and unanswered questions are major parts of those conflicts. The choice of the environment reflects that.

The parallel is consistent in the other films. The duels in ANH and TPM - the first films in the two series - take place in brightly lit machine environments, and end in death (and are witnessed by bystanders.) While the climatic duels in ROTJ and ROTS have a finality to them; the galaxy will change depending on who wins, and who walks away.

Originally posted by roughrider
Remember the Anakin-Dooku duel that was virtually in the dark? We'd see their faces illuminated by lightsabers clashes. Murkiness works for the story in both cases


Bingo! And that is the part I loved most about AOTC. I thought it looked awesome. Sparks flying around on the floor, dark lighting, some smoke to go along with it. Very atmospheric and extremely well done, unfortunately it only last for about 15 seconds, but I really liked the entire presentation of that scene.

Originally posted by ~JP~
Hiya Jack! and for the record I dont care for either of those avs.

B!tch uhuh

Aaaaaaaaaand I rest my case.

What case was that?

I like Steve's boobs best.

While I was going to address some of your points that I disagree with...it seems that that has really been done already And I will offer a second backup of SMX's comment.

However...I must say...General Grievous. Spectacular character

Originally posted by queeq
I like Steve's boobs best.

awew00t You have good taste in breasts

Originally posted by General G
While I was going to address some of your points that I disagree with...it seems that that has really been done already And I will offer a second backup of SMX's comment.

However...I must say...General Grievous. Spectacular character

I love that Grievous can wield 4 lightsabers at once. I love his design and look. Didn't quite like the voice over and coughing. I think he's a character I would have liked to have known a little more though.

I thought during the making of Episode III, the producer said we were going to learn about his origins. I'm sure it's covered in a book somewhere.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
I love that Grievous can wield 4 lightsabers at once. I love his design and look. Didn't quite like the voice over and coughing. I think he's a character I would have liked to have known a little more though.

I thought during the making of Episode III, the producer said we were going to learn about his origins. I'm sure it's covered in a book somewhere.
Ah, alright that's a shame, but to each his (err...their? Hey JP ) own I guess, right? I personally really liked his voice...although I could have easily lived without the cough. I don't think it was needed, especially because its origins weren't even mentioned in the movie. He just looks like he has a cold or has allergies or something.

The book makes him seem much cooler and I think it even alludes to the origin of his cough. It still doesn't go into his history as a character though. I know there is a book or comic about his origins as a military leader on his home planet, but can't recall what it was called :s

I do, however, agree that we should have been able to learn more about him through the movie, would have been much better, I think

Originally posted by queeq
We never hear from them again...

Same reason we didn't hear as much of Jar Jar. And Jake Lloyd.

Originally posted by steverules_2
awew00t You have good taste in breasts

I wanna squeeeeeeeeezeee....

Originally posted by queeq
Only one persion is responsible: Anakin himself. He made tha choice between right and wrong. Both points of view were amply presented to him and he chose.

Presented to him? He was goaded into turning to the dark side for crying out loud and what Palpatine did was beyond "presentation of choices", so to speak. He was inexperienced and completely fell for Palpatine's persuasion. Palpatine portrayed himself as a mentor aside from Obi-Wan hence was in a strong position to influence Anakin's thoughts and eventual decision.

But here's the catch- apart from Palpatine's "charisma" (rather odd in this context), Anakin did it out of love for Padme. He would've done anything to save her from a certain death and hence was already vulnerable and wouldn't have stood a chance against what Sidious proposed- Padme's well-being. He thus turned to the dark side because Sidious said it was the only way to save her and laced it with his persuasive powers, whether force-assisted or through the gift of the glib I don't know.

Also, Anakin felt he was more than capable of being part of the Jedi Council but was rejected time and time again. He subsequently got impatient in his quest for power and achievement and with Sidious' promises of unlimited power and due to his, well, slight annoyance with the Jedi, Sidious cleverly painted a bad picture of the Jedi and Anakin fell for it.

From this wall of text, we can hence infer that it was the a combination of Palpatine's shrewdness and brilliant manipulation, Anakin's love for Padme and to a small extent, the Jedi Council's failure to recognise Anakin's abilities by offering him a place in the Council which caused his downfall. (remember Windu was accepted at the age of 28 if I'm not mistaken)

However, if we are to move on to the combat aspect of his downfall, you can only blame it on his inexperience in using the Dark Side as well as his rashness displayed when trying to dispatch Obi-Wan. If he had used the Light Side against Obi-Wan he would've had a relatively easy job.

And Anakin could never be as powerful as he could've been after the bloody midichlorians were burnt out of him on Mustafar. I still despair from this fact.

his little insecurities about his dreams

and also all the pot he smoked, which made him so paranoia

And whiny.

Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
Presented to him? He was goaded into turning to the dark side for crying out loud and what Palpatine did was beyond "presentation of choices", so to speak. He was inexperienced and completely fell for Palpatine's persuasion. Palpatine portrayed himself as a mentor aside from Obi-Wan hence was in a strong position to influence Anakin's thoughts and eventual decision.

But here's the catch- apart from Palpatine's "charisma" (rather odd in this context), Anakin did it out of love for Padme. He would've done anything to save her from a certain death and hence was already vulnerable and wouldn't have stood a chance against what Sidious proposed- Padme's well-being. He thus turned to the dark side because Sidious said it was the only way to save her and laced it with his persuasive powers, whether force-assisted or through the gift of the glib I don't know.

Also, Anakin felt he was more than capable of being part of the Jedi Council but was rejected time and time again. He subsequently got impatient in his quest for power and achievement and with Sidious' promises of unlimited power and due to his, well, slight annoyance with the Jedi, Sidious cleverly painted a bad picture of the Jedi and Anakin fell for it.

From this wall of text, we can hence infer that it was the a combination of Palpatine's shrewdness and brilliant manipulation, Anakin's love for Padme and to a small extent, the Jedi Council's failure to recognise Anakin's abilities by offering him a place in the Council which caused his downfall. (remember Windu was accepted at the age of 28 if I'm not mistaken)

However, if we are to move on to the combat aspect of his downfall, you can only blame it on his inexperience in using the Dark Side as well as his rashness displayed when trying to dispatch Obi-Wan. If he had used the Light Side against Obi-Wan he would've had a relatively easy job.

And Anakin could never be as powerful as he could've been after the bloody midichlorians were burnt out of him on Mustafar. I still despair from this fact.

OB1 taught Anakin for 10 years, he learned some stuff from QGJ so pure Jedi teachings were presented to him amply. In his spare time Palpy seduces him, true. But in the end, he knew Palpy was a Sith lord. he even send the cops on him. And still he gives in. No matter what reason you give, love for Padme - manipulation - JC Council failure - it was Anakin who CHOSE and chose CONSCIOUSLY to go over to the evil dark side. He alone in the end is responsible for his actions. What you chose determines your future. If there is any point to SW it is that.

That's why Anakin's en Luke's lives are similar: Anakin choses for evil and Luke, under much the same circumstances en being much more vulnerable, choses for good. Luke is as much responsible for chosing the light side, as Anakin was for chosing the dark side.

Originally posted by queeq
And whiny.



OB1 taught Anakin for 10 years, he learned some stuff from QGJ so pure Jedi teachings were presented to him amply. In his spare time Palpy seduces him, true. But in the end, he knew Palpy was a Sith lord. he even send the cops on him. And still he gives in. No matter what reason you give, love for Padme - manipulation - JC Council failure - it was Anakin who CHOSE and chose CONSCIOUSLY to go over to the evil dark side. He alone in the end is responsible for his actions. What you chose determines your future. If there is any point to SW it is that.

That's why Anakin's en Luke's lives are similar: Anakin choses for evil and Luke, under much the same circumstances en being much more vulnerable, choses for good. Luke is as much responsible for chosing the light side, as Anakin was for chosing the dark side.

Consciously? You do realise that there is no "conscious" choice but choices influenced by circumstances and factors, being the reasons I gave. What choices do you make which are devoid of due consideration and a balance of pros and cons?

Luke's life was not very similar to Anakin's. He was as reckless as Anakin was. However, he had a very strong cause NOT to turn to the dark side. He sensed the tinge of goodness still lingering in the far depths of Anakin and held on to it. It kept him from embarking on the same route his father took. He did not have his ego blown out of proportions like Anakin had his (remember he was called the warrior with no fear or something). He did not have Sidious to constantly toy around with his mind and closely mentor him like a son. What Luke faced was absolutely puny compared to what Anakin had to juggle before turning to the dark side.

Anakin on the other hand, had every reason to turn to the dark side, reason being the very factors I had mentioned.

Therefore, Anakin could not be fully held responsible for turning to the dark side, while Luke, with all due respect, had an easier job fighting the good fight.

Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
Consciously? You do realise that there is no "conscious" choice but choices influenced by circumstances and factors, being the reasons I gave. What choices do you make which are devoid of due consideration and a balance of pros and cons?

That is life dude. We all make choices based on what we are given and what we find out by ourselves. You choice is still your choice.

Blaming someone else shows there's a lack of sense of responsibility. Exactly what Anakin was lacking. What was that line from Spiderman: With great power comes great responsibility. Anakin had great power, but was also irresponsible. But he made his choice, he prolly had some poor judgment, but he did not allow people to correct him. He KNEW killing Tuskens was bad, yet he did it and justified himself for it. He KNEW choosing for Padme was against Jedi rule. He KNEW the Sith were bad. He KNEW Palpy was a Sith. Nuff said. Anakin PHAILS.

Originally posted by queeq
That is life dude. We all make choices based on what we are given and what we find out by ourselves. You choice is still your choice.

Blaming someone else shows there's a lack of sense of responsibility. Exactly what Anakin was lacking. What was that line from Spiderman: With great power comes great responsibility. Anakin had great power, but was also irresponsible. But he made his choice, he prolly had some poor judgment, but he did not allow people to correct him. He KNEW killing Tuskens was bad, yet he did it and justified himself for it. He KNEW choosing for Padme was against Jedi rule. He KNEW the Sith were bad. He KNEW Palpy was a Sith. Nuff said. Anakin PHAILS.

The fact that someone else is dragged into the matter is because he/she or what he/she does impacts and influences the final result. It's not blaming. It is identification of the contributing factors. Anakin made the choice not because he was irresponsible. To begin with, did he blame anyone for HIS OWN transition into the dark side?

He didn't allow anyone to correct him because he was already knee-deep in the quicksand that is the dark side. He wasn't Anakin anymore. He was already beginning to be influenced by the dark side prior to killing Tuskens. He was arrogant and arrogance led to the dark side. He let it cloud his judgement without being able to do anything. Helplessness and "poor judgement" are two vastly different things, sir.

Regarding Padme, I'd have done her too

But digression aside- he started his training late and was too emotionally attached, taking a liking to Padme at first sight. Love is a powerful thing, my friend. It can empower you to do things you'd never known to be within your capacity; to refuse to conform to what's known as the "mainstream"; to do anything to keep your love alive and coursing through your veins. You're a mere pawn in the game of love. Anakin, at that point, was a mix of a slight dark side tendency, pulsating love and arrogance.

He felt compelled to stand by his feelings and stick by love for he had not learnt the Jedi values which condemned it from infancy. You may argue why he effectively murdered his own wife- he was already enveloped and shrouded in the dark side. He knows love not. He knows kinship not. Not anymore. He stood by, with the same uncompromising insistence, the dark side and hence degenerated into Darth Vader.

And I like these skirmishes, if you will

It still all excuses to deny the fact that when it comes to the question of this thread: who is to BLAME.... then the only answer can be Anakin himself. He screwed up.

There's is the case of being able to say no. He should have said no to killing tuskens, he should have said no to being a dork to his master, he should have said no to Pade, he should not have chosen to be loyal to an evil Sith. And all these things he did knowing they were wrong.

Originally posted by queeq
It still all excuses to deny the fact that when it comes to the question of this thread: who is to BLAME.... then the only answer can be Anakin himself. He screwed up.

There's is the case of being able to say no. He should have said no to killing tuskens, he should have said no to being a dork to his master, he should have said no to Pade, he should not have chosen to be loyal to an evil Sith. And all these things he did knowing they were wrong.

And made with his judgement clouded with what I'd quoted before.

I like.

Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
And made with his judgement clouded with what I'd quoted before.

But it was his own judgement. The Tusken Killing is a very good example. No one told him to do it, advised him even or gave even the faintest kind of notion that that would be a good idea. And yet... he did it.

If we have to believe OB1 in ROTJ, Anakin was once a 'good man'. I didn't see it. Even as a kid he used to steal from Watto... OMG....

Originally posted by queeq
But it was his own judgement. The Tusken Killing is a very good example. No one told him to do it, advised him even or gave even the faintest kind of notion that that would be a good idea. And yet... he did it.

If we have to believe OB1 in ROTJ, Anakin was once a 'good man'. I didn't see it. Even as a kid he used to steal from Watto... OMG....

And again it wasn't his fault! His late introduction into Jedi training rendered him vulnerable to the emotions he had as a slave boy; hatred and such. He dwelled on these feelings and adding on to the attachment he had to his mother, he just blew his top and killed them raiders.

I would also like to point out that he did help one Tusken Raider out as a young lad.

Anakin may have started his training process at older age, but he we still destined to be the most powerful force user in the galaxy. With that, I believe he could have controlled his emotions if he wanted to, it's just a product of who he was.

Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
And again it wasn't his fault!

Now you sound just as whiny as Luke and Anakin.... Of course it was his fault. No one held a lightsabre to his head and forced him to do the things he did. He chose, he is responsible... it is HIS choice. Ergo, his fault.

Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
His late introduction into Jedi training rendered him vulnerable to the emotions he had as a slave boy; hatred and such. He dwelled on these feelings and adding on to the attachment he had to his mother, he just blew his top and killed them raiders.

I would also like to point out that he did help one Tusken Raider out as a young lad.

One???? Now that certainly makes up for slaughtering him AND his whole tribe later on...

A lot of the same things apply to Luke though: started his traing VERY late in his life, lost his uncle and aunt in a horrible way (way more horrible than Anakin lost his mum), was lied to about his parents etc etc... And yet, he didn't blow his top because he did heed the warnings: he could turn out like Vader. Anakin had these same warnings and for a much longer time, and yet, he consciously chose to follow the evil Sith he just turned in... It's all pretty f***ed up. And Anakin most of all.

My only guess is no one...Only he himself...

I agree.

Because of his own love...afraid losing Padme, as he lost Qui-Gon and Shmi, he tries to stop it... forgets his mom's saying... he cannot accept the truth, that's why...and he has his own free will, no one can force him... he the one who choose the dark side of The Force...

Exactly, and the core root of this all has to do with his "attachments."

It's one of the biggest Jedi codes "attachments forbidden" and it's one code that Anakin couldn't live by.

And wouldn't live by.

Love is a type of power... but even when it was very powerful like death, it can brings death too.... I think Qui-Gon Jinn will be very disappointed in him, because he's 'the chosen one'... Anakin has make his death seems to proves in vain...

HE did, yes. But then there was Luke.

He always had his doubts in both movies so I think it is him and the Empires fault that made him turn to the Sith.Also the Jedi did not help him by telling him what to do and stuff like that.

I think he was doomed from the start he should of went to the jedi academy with the other young jedi's but yodi & the other masters knew it would happen (Thats what i like to think) with him saying the boys future is clouded so he became an apprentice and anakins obsession with being the most powerful jedi who ever lived also his mother being taken & dying in his arms and his love for padme which made things worse but when he finally got her it made you think everything was gonna be O k and with palpatine turning him bit by bit it was inevitable that he was gonna join the Dark Side but thats the best thing about P T
I love the end of ep III the duel with anakin & obi wan the bit that always sticks with me when anakin is sliding down into the lava and he screams in fury to obi wan I hate you that is one amazing fight scene

Star Wars Rules

And yet, Anakin was taught about the dark side and the choices that being a Jedi would involve... and he chose poorly. All by himself.

So true I would had picked the darkside if it was me too however.