Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/443/82977-21371-doc-samson_super.jpg vs http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/281306-113785-colossus_super.jpg

colossus ftw

Colossus's dur will make him win in time.

How does the change to "samson" occur? just in that form he claimed to be stronger than she hulk which would make this a stomp...

Originally posted by Starscream M
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/443/82977-21371-doc-samson_super.jpg vs http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/281306-113785-colossus_super.jpg

this is Spite, there are a few thread just donw there in wich colossus is match up against big big guys, many people believe he can Hang with them, the poor Doc is No where near those guys..........

Originally posted by nicamarvin
this is Spite, there are a few thread just donw there in wich colossus is match up against big big guys, many people believe he can Hang with them, the poor Doc is No where near those guys.......... Base on what?

Doc Samson hang w/ the Hulk before and was shown to be superior to She-Hulk.

When hulk was mindless didnt it take a couple of 100's to hold him back too? Wonderman, namor & ironman or soemthing

Piotr will judo toss him FTW.

Samson's too strong.

Colossus has something Samson doesnt, skill.

Samson has skill too. He's fought the Hulk for 6 hours straight and kayoed the Hulk another time.

Originally posted by khazra
How does the change to "samson" occur? just in that form he claimed to be stronger than she hulk which would make this a stomp...


Piotr is stronger than She-Hulk, so how do you figure?

Colossus beats Sampson in 30 seconds.

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
Piotr is stronger than She-Hulk, so how do you figure?

Colossus beats Sampson in 30 seconds. colossus is not stronger than she hulk. he is slightly under her

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he is slightly under her his punches hurt more....

Originally posted by nicamarvin
his punches hurt more.... Base on what?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
colossus is not stronger than she hulk. he is slightly under her He looked stronger than her in that fight even though he was a teenager back then.

Doc

Originally posted by vansonbee
Base on what? his fist is metal. imagin getting hit by a person with bare hands then brass knuckles

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
his fist is metal. imagin getting hit by a person with bare hands then brass knuckles With the same strength?

Originally posted by nicamarvin
his punches hurt more....

Originally posted by vansonbee
Base on what? ......

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
his fist is metal. imagin getting hit by a person with bare hands then brass knuckles ........

Originally posted by vansonbee
With the same strength? .....I bet if a teenager with Brass Knuckles hits you, he will bust you open....and a grown man will just Knock you out

Now what hurts more?...

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
colossus is not stronger than she hulk. he is slightly under her

Piotr is class 100+, how is he not stronger than She-Hulk?

He is stronger, faster, and better trained than Doc Sampson, takes this easily.

Originally posted by vansonbee
With the same strength? yea

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
Piotr is class 100+, how is he not stronger than She-Hulk?

He is stronger, faster, and better trained than Doc Sampson, takes this easily. i know colossus is class 100+ but current she hulk is stronger

Originally posted by Starscream M
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/443/82977-21371-doc-samson_super.jpg vs http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/281306-113785-colossus_super.jpg Colossus wins based on looking much more bad @ss.

Doc Samson wins the majority, 6.5-7/10

Colossus ftw

close fight. Split or edge to Colossus.

Doc Samson

Colossus is more skilled and more durable than Doc Samson, and just as strong if not stronger.

Colossus KO5 Samson

I'd say Colossus is stronger also.

They're close. Samson is no slouch.

Samson has green hair. They are not peers at all.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Colossus is more skilled and more durable than Doc Samson, and just as strong if not stronger.

Colossus KO5 Samson Originally posted by YFZ 350
I'd say Colossus is stronger also.
Not only no, but PHUCK NO!
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757443-samsonvs1_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757444-samsonvs2_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757445-samson3_super.jpg

All that proves is that Samson isn't as strong as Wonderman and only has a fraction of the Hulk's strength.

Doc Samson...did he ever fight Hercules? i think he has...

Originally posted by zopzop
Not only no, but PHUCK NO!
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757443-samsonvs1_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757444-samsonvs2_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757445-samson3_super.jpg

Nice outdated scan there, buddy.

Any scans of Kingpin overpowering Spider-Man you'd like to show us while you're at it?

yeah...i looked at Doc Samson's Respect thread...needs updating...but i did read the basic parts of his profile stats

Dated or not, that's damned impressive..

Colossus has his moments, like giving Glads or Hulk a good go, but he's never impressed me much as far as bricks go.. Guys an underachiever. Stark could probably take him, and he doesn't usually do too well against "good" class 100 types, while Doc is like Hulks regular sparring partner, when Thing isn't around..

Originally posted by cdtm
Dated or not, that's damned impressive..

Colossus has his moments, like giving Glads or Hulk a good go, but he's never impressed me much as far as bricks go.. Guys an underachiever. Stark could probably take him, and he doesn't usually do too well against "good" class 100 types, while Doc is like Hulks regular sparring partner, when Thing isn't around..
And it gets better! The length of his hair determines his strength level (like the biblical character he's named after). He purposely doesn't grow his hair too long because he can't control his strength at those high levels, stated on panel :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757513-samsonhair_super.jpg
Confirmed in Bio :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/757533-samsonpowers_super.jpg
That's why he keeps it shoulder length or shorter.

Doc with short hair is Luke Cage level, with longer hair he's around 75 tons or so, Colosus is Class 100 officially. In an older X-Men comic it was stated that Rogue was stronger than he was.

So Colossus gets to rip out fistfuls of Samson's hair before using him for a game of hackeysack?

Awesome.

Samson that was upgraded by the Leader and Modok wins. Never really been impressed with Colossus as a strong guy even though he's supposed to be capable of lifting over 100 tons.

Colossus is not made to impress. He's made to worf.

Kinda like Thing, except Thing's dumb, dogged determination and brittle rock-like composition makes for his ass whoopings to come across as far more entertaining than Piotr's.

When Piotr was a teenager he was stronger than she-hulk.

He is much stronger now.

Colossus ftw. Pretty handily if nothing stupid happens, like Kitty running by naked or something.

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
When Piotr was a teenager he was stronger than she-hulk.

He is much stronger now.

Colossus ftw. Pretty handily if nothing stupid happens, like Kitty running by naked or something.
Scans?

Colossus isn't impressive at all. He's had like 2 good fights (Gladiator and WWH) in over 30 years.

piotr

Originally posted by zopzop
Scans?

Colossus isn't impressive at all. He's had like 2 good fights (Gladiator and WWH) in over 30 years.

That's far from true.

Yea, he's kayoed Savage Hulk, got the better of War Machine in a H2H fight, tooled She-Hulk, done rather well against classic Juggernaut, held an advantage over Sasquatch at the end of their fight, and was do well against Red Hulk without Cyttorak power.

Originally posted by zopzop
Scans?

Colossus isn't impressive at all. He's had like 2 good fights (Gladiator and WWH) in over 30 years.

Gotta add a decent enough showing against Juggernaut (in casual clothes) to that list, all of which is more impressive than just about anything Ive seen Doc Samson doing. (and most of those was when Peter was young, hes become stronger/tougher since then).

He also took on and beat the "Beast of Badoon", who one shotted Thing after no-selling his strongest punch.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Yea, he's kayoed Savage Hulk, got the better of War Machine in a H2H fight, tooled She-Hulk, done rather well against classic Juggernaut, held an advantage over Sasquatch at the end of their fight, and was do well against Red Hulk without Cyttorak power.

Well, Iron Man's beaten Savage Hulk too though. And what are the circumstances of this defeat? Was it a "squeaked by, with some support" thing? A straight up KO?

Fighting with Hulk for six hours straight, is imo more impressive then defeating someone like War Machine, Iron Man, or even She Hulk..

And to be honest, Colossus's fight with Gladiator is impressive, but in a way it's also a black mark as Gladiator exists to "Worf" against the elite bricks. That pretty much proves Colossus, while a class 100 in stats, exists on the same tier Thing does, which is basically the "Jobber to the Stars" tier who can put up a fight against the cream of the crop like Hercules, Hulk, Thor, or Namor before losing, but in turn can also be given a good fight by class 50's or lower tier folks a well written Thor or Hulk should destroy (Though there's always the odd case of a class 50 giving Thor or Hulk a fight as well, but I'm talking generally..)

Gladiator one punched Thing though. He didn't do the same to Colossus.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Yea, he's kayoed Savage Hulk, got the better of War Machine in a H2H fight, tooled She-Hulk, done rather well against classic Juggernaut, held an advantage over Sasquatch at the end of their fight, and was do well against Red Hulk without Cyttorak power.
He didn't KO Savage Hulk, he "stunned" him, and Kitty had to save him before he got hurt.

When did he tool She-Hulk though? I keep hearing this and don't know which incident this is.

As to War Machine, Red Hulk (I'm assuming this isn't LOEBforce Rulk), and Sasquatch, those are OK showings.

Doesn't change my opinion of him though. Colossus isn't an impressive brick at all.


+1!

Originally posted by cdtm


Fighting with Hulk for six hours straight, is imo more impressive then defeating someone like War Machine, Iron Man, or even She Hulk..

Colossus kayoed Hulk in a matter of minutes. That's way shorter than 6 hours.

When did normal Colossus ever KO any version of the Hulk?

Originally posted by DTM
When did normal Colossus ever KO any version of the Hulk? X-Men vs Hulk #1. It was a kayo, Hulk was out cold.

He was sleeping for a few seconds. Piotr's fist reminded him of soft pillows.

Really? Was this an amped Colossus or a weak Hulk? Im a fan of Peter, but no way should he be able to KO pretty much any version of Hulk, IMO.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
X-Men vs Hulk #1. It was a kayo, Hulk was out cold.
No he wasn't. He was stunned (as admitted by Colossus himself). Then he came to and Kitty had to save Colossus.

Doc Samson sucker punched Savage Hulk and put that ass to sleep for several HOURS.

Originally posted by DTM
Really? Was this an amped Colossus or a weak Hulk? Im a fan of Peter, but no way should he be able to KO pretty much any version of Hulk, IMO. It was teen Colossus and Colossus said that Hulk looked weak but when Colossus attacked he said Hulk was reacting fast and that he wasn't as weak as he thought.

Originally posted by zopzop
No he wasn't. He was stunned (as admitted by Colossus himself). Then he came to and Kitty had to save Colossus.

Doc Samson sucker punched Savage Hulk and put that ass to sleep for several HOURS. Hulk's eyes were closed and his mouth was open. Heck his head was just dangling when Colossus tossed him into the rocks. Then Colossus walked up to him and had a little converstion with himself all while Hulk lie motionless in a pile of rubble.

Yea, Samson sucker shotted Hulk and broke his hand doing so.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Hulk's eyes were closed and his mouth was open. Heck his head was just dangling when Colossus tossed him into the rocks. Then Colossus walked up to him and had a little converstion with himself all while Hulk lie motionless in a pile of rubble.

Yea, Samson sucker shotted Hulk and broke his hand doing so.
And KOed Savage Hulk for HOURS. Not that few seconds/minutes that Colossus did, and even then Kitty had to jump in and save him from a brutal beating.

At least Doc Samson went toe to toe with Savage Hulk, SOLO, for several hours.

One punch ko...

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5256/gladiatorvsfantasticfour030rk.jpg

To many examples of Colossus durability being above "just average".

People really need to stop with the whole "i want my character to win so i'm just going to do the redundant thing and say the opponent sucks my balls" attitude.

Originally posted by zopzop
And KOed Savage Hulk for HOURS. Not that few seconds/minutes that Colossus did, and even then Kitty had to jump in and save him from a brutal beating.

At least Doc Samson went toe to toe with Savage Hulk, SOLO, for several hours. Colossus went toe to toe with Hulk for several minutes....and won!

And he didn't break his hand or get a black eye!

I can easily post a fight of Hulk nearly killing Samson.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Colossus went toe to toe with Hulk for several minutes....and won!

And he didn't break his hand or get a black eye!
Won? That's not how that fight ended did it? Peter threw him away, then gave chase, then Hulk came to and swatted that loser like the insect that he is.

Then his girlfriend jumped in and saved him.
Originally posted by carver9
I can easily post a fight of Hulk nearly killing Samson.
Don't bother Carver. NO one is saying Doc Samson > Hulk. Just Doc Samson > Failossus.

Originally posted by carver9
I can easily post a fight of Hulk nearly killing Samson. There are many.

I remember when Champion came to Earth to challange the strongest heroes. Samson got kayoed during a training session and was deemed unworthy. Colossus almost lasted a full round against Champion and was one of the only ones to not get kayoed.

What I am saying though is Colossus has performed better against opponents than Samson...far better imo and Hulk is an example.

Is there a pic of that teenage Colossus fighting/KOing Hulk in the Respect Area, Id love to see it.

Originally posted by carver9
What I am saying though is Colossus has performed better against opponents than Samson...far better imo and Hulk is an example.
Like?

Doc Samson doesn't have a team to bail his ass out or support him.


Wow embarrassing! Almost as embarrassing as screaming in pain from a kick by Storm.............almost.

Guys, keep it civil.

Originally posted by zopzop
Like?

Doc Samson doesn't have a team to bail his ass out or support him.


Wow embarrassing! Almost as embarrassing as screaming in pain from a kick by Storm.............almost. That is embarrasing considering Colossus went out and fought him and you're trying to say Samson>Colossus. Doc wasn't in that league.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
That is embarrasing considering Colossus went out and fought him and you're trying to say Samson>Colossus. Doc wasn't in that league.
Colossus SNUCK UP on him (the Hulk had his back turned) and landed the first attack. He launched himself at the Hulk and they both went tumbling into the river.

Colossus' sneak attack failed. Samson's put that brother to sleep..............FOR HOURS.

Originally posted by zopzop
Colossus SNUCK UP on him (the Hulk had his back turned) and landed the first attack. He launched himself at the Hulk and they both went tumbling into the river.

Colossus' sneak attack failed. Samson's put that brother to sleep..............FOR HOURS. Pushing somebody into a river is hardly a sneek attack. Anybody have Samsons fight with She-Hulk? The one where he was one-shotted?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Pushing somebody into a river is hardly a sneek attack. Anybody have Samsons fight with She-Hulk? The one where he was one-shotted?
He LUNGED at Hulk (with Hulk sitting down and his back turned). Hulk wasn't expecting to be attacked. Colossus had the element of surprise on his side and still failed. Also worth noting, the Hulk was in a calm state.

Samson had the element of surprise and put the Hulk into a mini coma.

Originally posted by zopzop
He LUNGED at Hulk (with Hulk sitting down and his back turned). Hulk wasn't expecting to be attacked. Colossus had the element of surprise on his side and still failed. Also worth noting, the Hulk was in a calm state.

Samson had the element of surprise and put the Hulk into a mini coma. Colossus lunged at Hulk and they both fell into the water. Hulk took the first swing.

@DTM...



http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk009.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk010.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk011.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk012.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk013.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk014.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk015.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk016.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk017.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk018.jpg

Zopzop you have the scan of She-Hulk one-shotting Samson? Pretty sure it's from the thunderclap scene from your sig. That was downright embarrasing.

Originally posted by carver9
@DTM...



http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk009.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk010.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk011.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk012.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk013.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk014.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk015.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk016.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk017.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk018.jpg There is actually two separate fights there. Hulk did win the first round but Colossus realized he had to use his skill to win.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Colossus lunged at Hulk and they both fell into the water. Hulk took the first swing.
Colossus attacked the Hulk while the Hulk was SITTING DOWN and had his back turned to Colossus. Hulk was also in a calm state. Colosuss even said he looked weak and disoriented. Hell Lockheed's fire hurt Hulk! Can we say lowshowing?

Originally posted by zopzop
Colossus attacked the Hulk while the Hulk was SITTING DOWN and had his back turned to Colossus. Hulk was also in a calm state. Colosuss even said he looked weak and disoriented. Hell Lockheed's fire hurt Hulk! Can we say lowshowing? Colossus did attack him, but he didn't strike him with his fists or feet as you seem to be implying.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Zopzop you have the scan of She-Hulk one-shotting Samson? Pretty sure it's from the thunderclap scene from your sig. That was downright embarrasing.
I got the pic from google.

Want me post the one where Colossus screams in pain from a kick from Storm? Because that's just as embarrassing if not more so.
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Colossus did attack him, but he didn't strike him with his fists or feet as you seem to be implying.
Point is Colossus attacked the Hulk from behind and couldn't finish him, despite being disoriented from Lockheed's fire (which makes NO sense but whatever).

Doc Samson put Hulk to sleep with one punch.

Both of them sucker attacked Hulk, Doc Samson made it count.

Originally posted by zopzop
I got the pic from google.

Want me post the one where Colossus screams in pain from a kick from Storm? Because that's just as embarrassing if not more so.

Point is Colossus attacked the Hulk from behind and couldn't finish him, despite being disoriented from Lockheed's fire (which makes NO sense but whatever).

Doc Samson put Hulk to sleep with one punch.

Both of them sucker attacked Hulk, Doc Samson made it count. Yea, I want to see Colossus screaming in pain.

Originally posted by zopzop
I got the pic from google.

Want me post the one where Colossus screams in pain from a kick from Storm? Because that's just as embarrassing if not more so.

That's PIS and we all know it. Colossus has fallen from orbit in Breakworld and was fine, yet a 55,000ft fall and a kick from Storm hurt him? He's been tanking electricity and lightning since day one, yet a lightning bolt hurts him? That whole issue reeked of PIS. Let's not try and deliberately lowball.

I'll admit the Colossus/Hulk fight had a lot of outside factors, but the fact remains that a teenage Colossus, much much weaker than he is now tussled with Hulk and not only held his own for a bit, flash KO'd him/stunned/whatever, and when he got knocked away, wasn't really hurt at all. He was having a calm monologue with himself.

That's a great showing for his strength class at the time.

Colossus being hurt by Storm was SpideyVsFl, and is obviously not valid.

Originally posted by zopzop




Point is Colossus attacked the Hulk from behind and couldn't finish him, despite being disoriented from Lockheed's fire (which makes NO sense but whatever).

Doc Samson put Hulk to sleep with one punch.

Both of them sucker attacked Hulk, Doc Samson made it count. I think you're lost. Doc had to sucker shot Hulk to get a win. Colossus actually did it during a fight when Hulk was fighting back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I think you're lost. Doc had to sucker shot Hulk to get a win. Colossus actually did it during a fight when Hulk was fighting back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not really.

Doc Samson has fought Savage Hulk in a straight up fight for HOURS. No team help, no nothing.

Doc Samson and Colossus have both sucker attacked Hulk. Only one of them KOed him for HOURS with one punch and didn't have a dragon or girlfriend help him.

@ KingD19
Don't you find it strange he has nothing nearly that impressive fight/feat wise now that he's supposedly older and more powerful?

yep. Doc can be beastly when he goes unhinged. He stalemated Hulk for a long time. But then when he calmed down a couple issues later, gray hulk smacked him around iirc.

Older Savage is stronger than Newer Savage...but sucker punches are bad to count anyway...Doc Samson did better against Hulk than Collosus did agaisnt Juggernuat...and all the most powerful fighters were disquilified from Universal Champions challenge...Doc's fighting skills weren't good enough because he didn't block or dodge when he needed too...the thing lasted longer than Collosus and maybe Sasquatch did too...and also Doc Samson had more fights with Hulk by alot

Originally posted by zopzop
Not really.

Doc Samson has fought Savage Hulk in a straight up fight for HOURS. No team help, no nothing.

Doc Samson have both sucker attacked Hulk. Only one of them KOed him for HOURS with one punch and didn't have a dragon or girlfriend help him.
So? It was a sucker punch. It's a lot easier to knock someone out with a punch they never saw coming.

Samson broke his hand with sucker shot too.

Originally posted by zopzop
Not really.

Doc Samson has fought Savage Hulk in a straight up fight for HOURS. No team help, no nothing.

Doc Samson and Colossus have both sucker attacked Hulk. Only one of them KOed him for HOURS with one punch and didn't have a dragon or girlfriend help him.

@ KingD19
Don't you find it strange he has nothing nearly that impressive fight/feat wise now that he's supposedly older and more powerful?

He's beaten down Ord, who was easily in his strength class.

He's recently beaten down War Machine.

He's taken on Rulk without transforming to Juggernaut.

He not only fought with for a while, but got a nod of recognition from WWH and didn't get beaten nearly as badly as some other people.

He has a lot of feats to his name, it's just that as he's on a team and writer's tend to not use him to his full potential, he doesn't get as much screen time.

And it's hard for me to take you serious as a debater when you're so obviously biased. Just sayin.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
So? It was a sucker punch. It's a lot easier to knock someone out with a punch they never saw coming.
Yeah it was a sucker punch. Exactly like Colossus ambushing the Hulk when the Hulk had his back turned and was trying to soothe the fire wounds Lockheed had caused earlier.

At least in Samson's case he didn't have a Dragon or girlfriend help him out.
Originally posted by Damborgson
Samson broke his hand with sucker shot too.
And the Hulk was out for hours. Not bad for a guy that's not in the Hulk's class strength wise.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah it was a sucker punch. Exactly like Colossus ambushing the Hulk when the Hulk had his back turned and was trying to soothe the fire wounds Lockheed had caused earlier.

At least in Samson's case he didn't have a Dragon or girlfriend help him out. Except Colossus didn't sucker punch Hulk; he tackled him. He eventually knocked out Hulk going toe-to-toe, unlike Samson, who only managed to knock out Hulk unaided with such a ***** move as a sucker punch.

Originally posted by zopzop
And the Hulk was out for hours. Not bad for a guy that's not in the Hulk's class strength wise.

The amount of time knocked out doesn't mean much. Hulk's brain got rattled enough to stall his healing factor, which doesn't completely make sense, but whatever. It was still a sucker punch.

Originally posted by Villelater
Older Savage is stronger than Newer Savage...but sucker punches are bad to count anyway...Doc Samson did better against Hulk than Collosus did agaisnt Juggernuat...and all the most powerful fighters were disquilified from Universal Champions challenge...Doc's fighting skills weren't good enough because he didn't block or dodge when he needed too...the thing lasted longer than Collosus and maybe Sasquatch did too...and also Doc Samson had more fights with Hulk by alot

No...Current Hulk is stronger than hes ever been and that's including Savage Hulk.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Except Colossus didn't sucker punch Hulk; he tackled him. He eventually knocked out Hulk going toe-to-toe, unlike Samson, who only managed to knock out Hulk unaided with such a ***** move as a sucker punch.
Except Samson didn't have a dragon friend fry the sh|t out of the Hulk causing him to run away screaming. Or a girlfriend to jump in and save him from getting his ass handed to him by phasing him out of harm's way.

See the difference?

Even aside from the sucker punch, Samson has gone toe to toe with Savage Hulk for HOURS unassisted by super friends.


Yeah and Doc's sucker attack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Colossus'.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Except Colossus didn't sucker punch Hulk; he tackled him. He eventually knocked out Hulk going toe-to-toe, unlike Samson, who only managed to knock out Hulk unaided with such a ***** move as a sucker punch.


I've been trying to say this.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I've been trying to say this.
Except you're wrong.

Lockheed's flame attack messed Hulk up big time, so much so that Colossus even noticed it before he SUCKER ATTACKED him with Hulk in a seating position with his BACK TURNED TO HIM.

Originally posted by zopzop
Except you're wrong.

Lockheed's flame attack messed Hulk up big time, so much so that Colossus even noticed it before he SUCKER ATTACKED him with Hulk in a seating position with his BACK TURNED TO HIM. I like how you cling to the fact Colossus said Hulk looked weak but neglect to mention Colossus ammending that comment to not being as weak as he thought.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I like how you cling to the fact Colossus said Hulk looked weak but neglect to mention Colossus ammending that comment to not being as weak as he thought.
I like how you keep ignoring the fact that Lockheed's fire wrecked Hulk badly. Not only did he run away screaming, he purposely sought out water to soothe his wounds.

In fact, that's what he was doing, pouring water on himself, when Colossus noticed he looked weak AND DISORIENTED. Hulk had his back turned, was sitting down, and was pouring water over his body to cool the burns.

Then Colossus attacked him.

Nice of you to ignore Kitty saving Peter's ass too.

Samson didn't have a Dragon or girlfriend to run interference for him, save his ass, or torch the Hulk.

Originally posted by zopzop
I like how you keep ignoring the fact that Lockheed's fire wrecked Hulk badly. Not only did he run away screaming, he purposely sought out water to soothe his wounds.

In fact, that's what he was doing, pouring water on himself, when Colossus noticed he looked weak AND DISORIENTED. Hulk had his back turned, was sitting down, and was pouring water over his body to cool the burns.

Then Colossus attacked him.

Nice of you to ignore Kitty saving Peter's ass too.

Samson didn't have a Dragon or girlfriend to run interference for him, save his ass, or torch the Hulk. Still don't change the fact that Colossus stated Hulk wasn't as weak as he thought.

BTW you have scans of Samson getting one-shotted by She-Hulk and getting beat up by Luke Cage?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Still don't change the fact that Colossus stated Hulk wasn't as weak as he thought.

BTW you have scans of Samson getting one-shotted by She-Hulk and getting beat up by Luke Cage?
He wasn't one shotted by She Hulk. She punched him out of state. When did Luke Cage beat up Samson?

Being punched across state lines isn't the same as "one shotting" and it's sure as hell isn't the same as being staggered by a kick to the face by Storm.

Originally posted by zopzop
He wasn't one shotted by She Hulk. She punched him out of state. When did Luke Cage beat up Samson?

Being punched across state lines isn't the same as "one shotting" and it's sure as hell isn't the same as being staggered by a kick to the face by Storm. Punched out of state? That's worse yet. Cage was beating up Samson during Civil War.

Originally posted by zopzop
He wasn't one shotted by She Hulk. She punched him out of state. When did Luke Cage beat up Samson?

Being punched across state lines isn't the same as "one shotting" and it's sure as hell isn't the same as being staggered by a kick to the face by Storm.

PR already stated that that kick isn't valid as it has as much actual standing as Spidey beating Firelord. It's bull and PIS. You know it, why do you keep bringing it up?

Originally posted by zopzop

Except Samson didn't have a dragon friend fry the sh|t out of the Hulk causing him to run away screaming. Or a girlfriend to jump in and save him from getting his ass handed to him by phasing him out of harm's way.

See the difference?

Even aside from the sucker punch, Samson has gone toe to toe with Savage Hulk for HOURS unassisted by super friends.

Yes, I do see the difference.

A still-green teenage Colossus got smacked around by Marvel's top brick, the Incredible Hulk, within seconds of the fight, as is usually the case. Colossus' friends stalled Hulk long enough for Colossus to get up and knock out the Hulk in a direct confrontation.

You're trying to downplay that with one instance of an adult Rapunzelesque Doc Samson fighting the Hulk for six hours without ever gaining a significant edge over him, and another where he managed to knockout Hulk with a sucker punch.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah and Doc's sucker attack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Colossus'.

What are you talking about? That tackle worked perfectly. Took Hulk down, right? Tackles aren't really intended to knock people out.

How did Samson fare against World War Hulk compared to Colossus? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he get backhanded along with the rest of the New Avengers from the get go?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Punched out of state? That's worse yet. Cage was beating up Samson during Civil War.
Nothing is worse than that incident that between those two X-Men. Nothing.

@ Eternal Idol
AFTER Lockheed FRIED Hulk(this was the cause of him running away, seeking to soothe his wounds, and seeming "disoriented and weak" and Kitty saved Colossus.

So it evens out.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nothing is worse than that incident that between those two X-Men. Nothing.

@ Eternal Idol
AFTER Lockheed FRIED Hulk(this was the cause of him running away, seeking to soothe his wounds, and seeming "disoriented and weak" and Kitty saved Colossus.

So it evens out.

Like Lockheed's fire would ever pose a problem for Hulk. Because it happened in an X-book, though, it managed to hurt him some and scare the shit out of him like he was Frankenstein's monster. Anyhow, it didn't hurt him badly enough, as Colossus noted. Either way, Hulk still has his ridiculous healing factor.

And no, getting burnt didn't contribute to the knockout. Impact sufficient enough to rattle your brain inside your skull causes knockouts. That was all Colossus.

Yeah, WWH one hit Samson whereas Colossus temporarily stood his ground against WWHulk.

Originally posted by carver9
@DTM...



http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk009.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk010.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk011.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk012.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk013.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk014.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk015.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk016.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk017.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_X-MenVsHulk018.jpg


Thanks buddy (unfortunately the pictues on these links are all thumbnail sized, and dont get bigger when I click on them, but its the thought that counts here)

Originally posted by DTM
Thanks buddy (unfortunately the pictues on these links are all thumbnail sized, and dont get bigger when I click on them, but its the thought that counts here)

Clicking on took me to the photobucket site.

http://s663.beta.photobucket.com/user/ankur29/media/X-MenVsHulk009.jpg.html

You can just flip through there.

Originally posted by cdtm
Clicking on took me to the photobucket site.

http://s663.beta.photobucket.com/user/ankur29/media/X-MenVsHulk009.jpg.html

You can just flip through there.

Yep, I went there as well, thing is the pictures are all thumbnail sized, and they dont seem to get bigger when clicked.

Originally posted by DTM
Yep, I went there as well, thing is the pictures are all thumbnail sized, and they dont seem to get bigger when clicked.

ah you're on mobile photobucket aren't you? I only got rid of that pain in the ass recently. Click a long blue link at the bottom of the mini page and everything should go back to normal.

Yeah, it goes to Mobile Photobucket automatically.....is that not good?

And what long blue link, the View Full Website link?

nope it sucks.

yes sir that one exactly.

Awesome, that seemed to work, thats buddy.

Horrendous showing for Hulk, I wouldnt be too proud of Colossus beating THAT showing of Hulk (especially since Peter needed some pretty crucious help to do so). Not even sure Id even call that a win for Colossus really.

This sentinel is sent to get Samson and is specifically designed for his strength and durability. Colossus gets slapped around, but Rogue absorbs Samson's strength to fight it.

http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sentinel13iu.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sentinel26ht.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sentinel3jpg7vt.jpg

Samson vs. Hulk. IH #193
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193a1do.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193b9wy.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193c6mo.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193d3ne.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193e1qc.jpg

Samson (w/ SHIELD) vs. Hulk. IH #199
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5329/samsonhulk199a0nl.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8600/samsonhulk199b5uk.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2408/samsonhulk199c8ww.th.jpg

that didn't hold the Hulk for long so Samson had to jump back into the fray...
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4852/samsonhulk199d3fk.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2945/samsonhulk199e4ei.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6735/samsonhulk199f8pg.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6411/samsonhulk199g2ne.th.jpg

Samson fights mindless hulk for six hours straight, btw mindless hulk was stronger than savage hulk

http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317a9vq.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317b0hj.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317c3uu.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317d7gl.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317e6yx.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317f2qu.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317g3rx.jpg

Samson takes on his favorite sparring partner again. An important note is that Samson's probably not at 100%. He'd taken quite a beating from Woodgod and several Changelings and was in and out of consciousness for hours before he went in search of Rick, Betty, and Hulk. Still, he holds his own. IH #253

http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk253a2ok.jpg
http://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk253b4vj.jpg
http://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk253c2ym.jpg

Hulk vs samson again from IH 226. Don't know how long the fight went on before the reinforcements arrived. (For the record: Hulk jumped Samson at the end of the previous issue.)

http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226a9ag.jpg
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226b2dy.jpg
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226c4qd.jpg
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226d2sm.jpg
http://img326.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226e8lh.jpg
http://img498.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226f3jc.jpg

Samson and the Hulkbusters vs. Byrne's Animal-Hulk. Samson is eventually knocked unconscious but only after some hours of fighting. IH #320.
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/6361/samsonhulk320a4xf.jpg

Interlude, then...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/6199/samsonhulk320b1tp.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/7856/samsonhulk320c3mo.jpg

Another interlude...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4205/samsonhulk320d9ar.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/1552/samsonhulk320e7ex.jpg

Another interlude...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/3028/samsonhulk320f8xp.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4817/samsonhulk320g8fs.jpg

Another interlude...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/8589/samsonhulk320h1bl.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4873/samsonhulk320i7yg.jpg

Samson, mind-controlled, takes on the Rick Jones' "Hulk." IH #330
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8016/samsonhulk330a4pb.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5464/samsonhulk330b9mg.jpg

Following that last punch, "Hulk" isn't seen for a couple of pages. Notice that the mutant speculates that his control over Samson is affecting Samson's power.

Some feats for samson. He is getting lowballed here as much as colossus.

Originally posted by abhilegend
This sentinel is sent to get Samson and is specifically designed for his strength and durability. Colossus gets slapped around, but Rogue absorbs Samson's strength to fight it.

http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sentinel13iu.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sentinel26ht.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sentinel3jpg7vt.jpg

Samson vs. Hulk. IH #193
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193a1do.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193b9wy.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193c6mo.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193d3ne.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk193e1qc.jpg

Samson (w/ SHIELD) vs. Hulk. IH #199
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5329/samsonhulk199a0nl.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8600/samsonhulk199b5uk.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2408/samsonhulk199c8ww.th.jpg

that didn't hold the Hulk for long so Samson had to jump back into the fray...
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4852/samsonhulk199d3fk.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2945/samsonhulk199e4ei.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6735/samsonhulk199f8pg.th.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6411/samsonhulk199g2ne.th.jpg

Samson fights mindless hulk for six hours straight, btw mindless hulk was stronger than savage hulk

http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317a9vq.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317b0hj.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317c3uu.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317d7gl.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317e6yx.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317f2qu.jpg
http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk317g3rx.jpg

Samson takes on his favorite sparring partner again. An important note is that Samson's probably not at 100%. He'd taken quite a beating from Woodgod and several Changelings and was in and out of consciousness for hours before he went in search of Rick, Betty, and Hulk. Still, he holds his own. IH #253

http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk253a2ok.jpg
http://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk253b4vj.jpg
http://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk253c2ym.jpg

Hulk vs samson again from IH 226. Don't know how long the fight went on before the reinforcements arrived. (For the record: Hulk jumped Samson at the end of the previous issue.)

http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226a9ag.jpg
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226b2dy.jpg
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226c4qd.jpg
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226d2sm.jpg
http://img326.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226e8lh.jpg
http://img498.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsonhulk226f3jc.jpg

Samson and the Hulkbusters vs. Byrne's Animal-Hulk. Samson is eventually knocked unconscious but only after some hours of fighting. IH #320.
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/6361/samsonhulk320a4xf.jpg

Interlude, then...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/6199/samsonhulk320b1tp.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/7856/samsonhulk320c3mo.jpg

Another interlude...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4205/samsonhulk320d9ar.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/1552/samsonhulk320e7ex.jpg

Another interlude...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/3028/samsonhulk320f8xp.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4817/samsonhulk320g8fs.jpg

Another interlude...
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/8589/samsonhulk320h1bl.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4873/samsonhulk320i7yg.jpg

Samson, mind-controlled, takes on the Rick Jones' "Hulk." IH #330
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8016/samsonhulk330a4pb.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5464/samsonhulk330b9mg.jpg

Following that last punch, "Hulk" isn't seen for a couple of pages. Notice that the mutant speculates that his control over Samson is affecting Samson's power.

Some feats for samson. He is getting lowballed here as much as colossus.




There are a few fav's that get too much wank on this site. Hulk, Supes, Wolverine, Thor, etc..

Most everyone else gets lowballed. It's pretty predictable.

I agree, Doc Samson does get lowballed.

But Xmen wankery, what you gonna do? ^_^

Originally posted by zopzop
Doc Samson and Colossus have both sucker attacked Hulk. Only one of them KOed him for HOURS with one punch and didn't have a dragon or girlfriend help him. he cheated regardless

those links are almost all broken for me

Me too. They're obviously a C&P from his respect thread.

I don't know why anyone ever uses Image Shack over Photobucket. You find broken links from IS all the time, but you find Photobucket images that are ten years old and still working.

i agree Imageshack sucks...i don't use photobucket...i just use Comicvine as my image holder...

Originally posted by cdtm
Me too. They're obviously a C&P from his respect thread.

I don't know why anyone ever uses Image Shack over Photobucket. You find broken links from IS all the time, but you find Photobucket images that are ten years old and still working.
I used to use it because of mobile photobucket. thought it was a bug and that the site was effed up. then I got out of it and now use photobucket regularly again.

Originally posted by Damborgson
those links are almost all broken for me
I can see them just fine.

http://eatwatchrun.com/wp-content/uploads/you-lie-i-hate-liars_thumb.jpg

Almost every one of those links I clicked gave me a "403 Forbidden" message.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Almost every one of those links I clicked gave me a "403 Forbidden" message.

Same here.

Which is a shame, old Hulk scans are hard to come by these days, what with the Avengers movie leading to a major crackdown on related unauthorized ip...

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://eatwatchrun.com/wp-content/uploads/you-lie-i-hate-liars_thumb.jpg


Now I'm also getting "403 Forbidden" message.

Abhi broke the internet.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Abhi broke the internet.

you know Doc's shirt reminds me of Flash gorden...is it weird to think that?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Like Lockheed's fire would ever pose a problem for Hulk. Because it happened in an X-book, though, it managed to hurt him some and scare the shit out of him like he was Frankenstein's monster. Anyhow, it didn't hurt him badly enough, as Colossus noted. Either way, Hulk still has his ridiculous healing factor.

And no, getting burnt didn't contribute to the knockout. Impact sufficient enough to rattle your brain inside your skull causes knockouts. That was all Colossus.
But it did hurt him enough that he went screaming and looking for a way to soothe the burns. This is exactly what we saw on panel. Colossus even noticed him looking weak and disoriented and pouring water on his wounds.

That "win" for Colossus came with major help from Lockheed and Kitty.

Originally posted by DTM
Awesome, that seemed to work, thats buddy.

Horrendous showing for Hulk, I wouldnt be too proud of Colossus beating THAT showing of Hulk (especially since Peter needed some pretty crucious help to do so). Not even sure Id even call that a win for Colossus really.
Thank you.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
he cheated regardless
Wow really?! Dude no one is saying Doc Samson > Hulk, not even his fans. We understand Hulk is leagues more powerful, durable, stronger, etc.. We were just comparing cheap shots against him by Doc Samson and Colossus.

Wasn't Samson upgraded by Loeb?

yeah a bit. Plus if that thing about the longer his hair the stronger he is, was still going on he should have been a good bit stronger. It's Loeb though so I doubt it.

I think he had 2 forms under Loeb; short-haired Dr. Leonard and long-haired Samson (second personality, stronger). Legit Class 100 according to the handbook, IIRC.

Originally posted by zopzop
Wow really?! Dude no one is saying Doc Samson > Hulk, not even his fans. We understand Hulk is leagues more powerful, durable, stronger, etc.. We were just comparing cheap shots against him by Doc Samson and Colossus. no, but the man REALLY cheated. he's banner's psychiatrist for christ's sake, he knows the hulk's pathology

Originally posted by zopzop
Nothing is worse than that incident that between those two X-Men. Nothing.

@ Eternal Idol
AFTER Lockheed FRIED Hulk(this was the cause of him running away, seeking to soothe his wounds, and seeming "disoriented and weak" and Kitty saved Colossus.

So it evens out. Kitty saved Colossus the first fight. In the rematch Colossus kayoed a Hulk that was fighting back. And as Colossus noted Hulk wasn't as weak as he thought.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
no, but the man REALLY cheated. he's banner's psychiatrist for christ's sake, he knows the hulk's pathology

He still lasted 6 hours against a stronger Hulk though.

Colossus needs out of teams for a while. Let him have a solo mag for a year or two like the Thing did and shake off some of the old habits.

Come out of that a badass and get some respect....

that would be quite boring

How would that be boring?

Did you read Colossus: Bloodlines?

Nice back story and dived into Piotr's psyche.

Boring is a character who always "gets angrier and stronger" (wonder who that is)

oohh was that a personal dig? lawl. let's play the role shall we: hulk get's angry for a reason, colossus turns into steel cause he's a mutant, same reason beak looks like a sick bird.

anyway, it would be a mini at best

lol it's not personal

There's just a LOT of wank and too much exposure for some very boring characters. I think Piotr's back story and such could make for an interesting 20 - 25 issues. It may even help develop the character.

Supes, Hulk, Wolverine, Bats... sick of them, they all bore me to death now.

Originally posted by cdtm
He still lasted 6 hours against a stronger Hulk though. Also got chumped by Gray Hulk. He has his good days and he has his bad days.

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
Colossus needs out of teams for a while. Let him have a solo mag for a year or two like the Thing did and shake off some of the old habits.

Come out of that a badass and get some respect....

Colossus is no Ben Grimm...

Originally posted by Bentley
Colossus is no Ben Grimm...


Aye, he's actually a decent enough character to warrant his own mag.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Aye, he's actually a decent enough character to warrant his own mag.

Like Martian Manhunter?






biscuits








biscuits

Originally posted by Bentley
Colossus is no Ben Grimm... If I'm not mistaken Colossus' last 5 issue mini outsold Ben's last 6 issue mini and they ran kneck & kneck.