The Blade of Olympus vs. The Master Sword (actually it's Kratos vs. Link)

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Nemesis X
In this fight, Kratos and Link argue which of their swords is better, Kratos' Blade of Olympus or Link's Master Sword. They both suggest a fight to the death with only one weapon. Kratos brings only the Blade of Olympus and Link brings only the Master Sword.

Fight is in a coliseum.

Will the demigod of war destroy the elf with the Blade of Olympus or will the hero of Hyrule vanquish the ghost of Sparta with the Master Sword?

iChaos
Oh noes! Link wins because Kratos is evil...I think.

Burning thought
The SOUL REAVER!!!!!

If it was in the match, but the Blade of Olmypus wins.

ScreamPaste
Well, considering you nullified all of Kratos advantages by allowing him only the one weapon and he IS evil, just sayin'.

First_Tsurugi06
Except for having every single physical advantage imaginable with a weapon not only indiscriminate of who it harms, but in one game proves better than a weapon from a twenty-plus year old series. Just sayin'.

And until I outright see Kratos doing his actions for the sake of reveling in seeing everything he desires to be destroyed/maimed/killed for the sake of just that, then he's not evil, because that's not what he works for. Vengeance is cold, not evil, and vengeance is what Kratos is driven by, not a desire to cause desturction and despair ie, what it takes to be evil. He'd redeemed himself FROM that kind of thing.

Kratos effortlessly annihilates all but a composite Link, who a composite Kratos (hell, just a GoW2 Kratos) would still defeat.

iChaos
Considering the fact that he killed innocents in CoO.

First_Tsurugi06
First off it was mainly optional gamepaly. Secondly, kills all the innocents he needs if they 1. Impede his way or 2. If soemthing they have benefit his progress. That's kinda how anti-heroes work. Good and evil can't be as blunt or black and white as what's in Legend of Zelda. The most evil things Kratos has ever done, he's since regretted and atoned for.

Wei Phoenix
First is right, I have never seen Kratos just run around, see an innocent baby or woman or whatever and kill them just because he can, nor have I seen him cherish the thought of killing someone helpless that did nothing to them.

Also wasn't he still under Ares during COO?

Nephthys
So you're saying that brutally killing other people purely for your own benefit Isn't evil!? Huh.

Sin_Volvagia
Kratos swings his blade and Link is reduced to just the Master Sword.

MooCowofJustice
The Master Sword shoots laser beams. Link wins.

First_Tsurugi06
So does the Blade of Olympus. And they're bigger. Kratos wins.

MooCowofJustice
Master Sword deflects magic. Link wins.

First_Tsurugi06
Blade of Olympus absorbs magic. Kratos wins.

Burning thought
Kratos strike knocks the MS out of Links hands and breaks his sword arm.

MooCowofJustice
So far its a tie then.

Sin_Volvagia
The Blade of Olympus wipes out entire armies and sends super giants to Tartarus.

The Master Sword after the battle:

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5711/masterswordscrewed.jpg

iChaos
Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
First off it was mainly optional gamepaly. Secondly, kills all the innocents he needs if they 1. Impede his way or 2. If soemthing they have benefit his progress. That's kinda how anti-heroes work. Good and evil can't be as blunt or black and white as what's in Legend of Zelda. The most evil things Kratos has ever done, he's since regretted and atoned for.

No, that wasn't gameplay.

iChaos
Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Blade of Olympus absorbs magic. Kratos wins.

Only optionally?

Sappho
i cant believe this is actually being somewhat argued... blad of olympus demolishes.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
So far its a tie then.
The BoO is bigger in size by default. Kratos wins. uhuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
So you're saying that brutally killing other people purely for your own benefit Isn't evil!? Huh.
Link 'kills' his enemies for his benefit. Isn't that evil by that standard?

Originally posted by iChaos
No, that wasn't gameplay.
In which cutscene did he kill an innocent in CoO?

~ Kratos isn't completely 'evil'. He's morally neutral imo, somewhat like a anti-hero/byronic hero mix, meh. Though he's probably more towards the 'evil' side of the spectrum post-GoW -> GoWIII.

ScreamPaste
Kratos is incredibly evil.

Master sword deflect magic/protects Link from evil/is super-effective against evil/shoots lasers/is generally amazing.

Link wins.

Nemesis X
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Kratos is incredibly evil.

Master sword deflect magic/protects Link from evil/is super-effective against evil/shoots lasers/is generally amazing.

Link wins.

If Kratos is factually evil, then Link is factually gay.

Blade of Olympus absorbs magic/ended the titan war/is super effective against anyone/ shoots bigger lasers/ is generally more amazing which makes Master Sword look like a handout for everybody.

iChaos
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
In which cutscene did he kill an innocent in CoO?

~ Kratos isn't completely 'evil'. He's morally neutral imo, somewhat like a anti-hero/byronic hero mix, meh. Though he's probably more towards the 'evil' side of the spectrum post-GoW -> GoWIII.

Well, actually, they were innocents spirits, but you get my point.

I don't think there is a cutscene, but he had to kill them canonically in order to get his powers back. According to the game script, it must be a cutscene, I guess.

And for the record, the BoO only "asorbs" magic optionally.

Nemesis X
Originally posted by iChaos
for the record, the BoO only "asorbs" magic optionally.

Didn't Kratos let the BoO absorb the magic out of him to be released so Kratos can defeat the Colossus?

First_Tsurugi06
Originally posted by iChaos
Only optionally?

No, in madatory plot points. At least two or three.

MooCowofJustice
I'll believe the BoO is more amazing when I see it used to harm Ganondorf.

thumb up

First_Tsurugi06
And I'll believe the MS is more powerful when it ends a world-sized war between two mountainous races/reduces a city sized army to a bloody field of armor/kills an ACTUAL God.

ScreamPaste
Said it before, will say it again. Ganon > Zeus.

First_Tsurugi06
And it's since been argued. Zeus alone >>> Legend of Zelda.

Hell Pandora's Box for that matter.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
And I'll believe the MS is more powerful when it ends a world-sized war between two mountainous races/reduces a city sized army to a bloody field of armor/kills an ACTUAL God.

Well, ALttP did establish the MS as a pretty bitchin weapon. If I recall correctly the Knights used it to protect the Seven Wise Men from Ganondorf as they sealed the door to the Sacred Realm. There was a huge war and everything.

And Ganon can do anything the BoO can just as easily. The MS beats his ass.

First_Tsurugi06
The one thing he did that was ever virtually similar to the BoO's feats wasn't even a fraction as impressive in scale.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
Well, actually, they were innocents spirits, but you get my point.

I don't think there is a cutscene, but he had to kill them canonically in order to get his powers back. According to the game script, it must be a cutscene, I guess.

And for the record, the BoO only "asorbs" magic optionally.

Key words here being 'had to'. Or else everything that existed would have been damned erm. He could have let Persephone & Atlas destroy the Gods (and Ares) but he chose to give up daughter, and save her and the world. He would not be able do that without any power now would he.

What do you mean by optionally?

iChaos
-You're actually making my point smile Kratos only did it for his own will. Bascially, he only did it to save himself. Fact is, he killed innocents, regardless of what he "had" to do.

-I mean, didn't he give up his powers optionally? In other words, you can't just take it - magic- at will.

First_Tsurugi06
-Did you not listen/watch/do anything in CoO? If there was one person Kratos did it for, it sure as hell wasn't himself. The REAL fact is that he's not incapable of selfless acts. Your "point" is practically moot http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/erm.gif.

-Only from himself. From The Colossus of Rhodes and apparently Zeus, he clearly took it on his own.

ScreamPaste
I'd like to point out even the most evil characters in fiction are often capable of selfless acts. Monolithic evil's an unrealistic concept, and makes characters one dimensional. It's easier to accept characters as human if they act human. Kratos is indeed evil.

Phanteros
Saying that the Master Sword protects Link from all evil sounds like a No limit falllacy.

@Scream

Following your logic and Mewtoo himself is evil because he commit unknown deaths with his hurricane.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
-You're actually making my point smile Kratos only did it for his own will. Bascially, he only did it to save himself. Fact is, he killed innocents, regardless of what he "had" to do.

-I mean, didn't he give up his powers optionally? In other words, you can't just take it - magic- at will.

He didn't do it to save himself no expression.
Also, look at it this way, those spirits would have been destroyed had Kratos not stopped Atlas & Persephone. I also find it hard to believe that Kratos could kill those spirits, they were already dead.

He took it from the Colossus without its consent.

ScreamPaste
Even in the pokedex, MewTwo is listed as the Pokemon with the most savage heart of all, and D/P/P has Giritina.. Sooo. Yeah. MewTwo was definitely evil in the first movie, less so in the second when he sacrifices himself for the other pokemon.

iChaos
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He didn't do it to save himself no expression.
Also, look at it this way, those spirits would have been destroyed had Kratos not stopped Atlas & Persephone. I also find it hard to believe that Kratos could kill those spirits, they were already dead.

Yes he did. He did not care about the gods or anything, he only did it to save himself. When Kratos found out that he would die, along with everyone else, he did it for himself. Like I said, they were "innocents" spirirts. And not to mention that Kratos killed (or rather throwed) the boat captain down the throat of the Hydra, and he pushed him down back into Hades when he was on the edge of that thing.

There was no reason to kill Helios, but hey, he did it.

iChaos
Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
-Did you not listen/watch/do anything in CoO? If there was one person Kratos did it for, it sure as hell wasn't himself. The REAL fact is that he's not incapable of selfless acts. Your "point" is practically moot http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/erm.gif.

-Only from himself. From The Colossus of Rhodes and apparently Zeus, he clearly took it on his own.

Considering the fact that Kratos does anything for himself.

When he made Zeus small? That was just PIS. There was no reason for him to go small, and go back big again.

iChaos
Originally posted by iChaos
There was no reason to kill Helios, but hey, he did it.

Ignore that.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
Yes he did. He did not care about the gods or anything, he only did it to save himself. When Kratos found out that he would die, along with everyone else, he did it for himself. Like I said, they were "innocents" spirirts. And not to mention that Kratos killed (or rather throwed) the boat captain down the throat of the Hydra, and he pushed him down back into Hades when he was on the edge of that thing.

There was no reason to kill Helios, but hey, he did it.

He did it to save his daughter no expression
And like I said, they were damned either way. Either they'd be destroyed by Persephone's actions, or they'd be destroyed (?) by Kratos' actions.

a) He said it himself, he didn't go there to save the captain.
b) Those two were fighting to get up on the ledge. Kratos won.

Right. Helios would have also rolled over willingly and let Kratos kill Zeus right?

EDIT:
Originally posted by iChaos
Ignore that.
Gotcha. Ignore my response to the Helios comment then.

First_Tsurugi06
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I'd like to point out even the most evil characters in fiction are often capable of selfless acts. Monolithic evil's an unrealistic concept, and makes characters one dimensional. It's easier to accept characters as human if they act human. Kratos is indeed evil.

And that aforementioned humanity has larger effects on certain aspects or characters than on others. It's one of the driving points in Greek mythology itself, and God of War is not an exception to that. Every character thus far has acted out of something besides intentions of any kind of malevolence or sadism (except maybe Ares who even then was only ever as treacherous as he was out of presumably jealousy). The violence is just a result of that. That doesn't make anyone evil. It's war, and in war, people die. Fact is if there were classifications for anyone in GoW, it'd be Chaotic Neutral for virtually 100% of the major cast, and that's not too far from how it was in actual Greek mythology. Not evil.

Yes he did. He did not care about the gods or anything, he only did it to save himself. When Kratos found out that he would die, along with everyone else, he did it for himself. Like I said, they were "innocents" spirirts. And not to mention that Kratos killed (or rather throwed) the boat captain down the throat of the Hydra, and he pushed him down back into Hades when he was on the edge of that thing.

Play the game, because you're just plain wrong here. It was pretty bluntly stated that the character who's life he had in mind was his daughter's, and it doesn't take an idiot to notice that leaving her again killed him on the inside. Hell, beforehand it was also just as bluntly said that being with his family again was "all that he ever wanted".

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
Considering the fact that Kratos does anything for himself.

When he made Zeus small? That was just PIS. There was no reason for him to go small, and go back big again.

Anything for himself. Maybe. Always does things for himself. Nah.
We have the classic captain+key example you brought up earlier. He wanted to save those women.

CIS on Zeus' part, not PIS. He could have ended the fight the first time he got big.
Or he was just weakened from the drain and then recovered most of his energy back during the fight.

iChaos
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He did it to save his daughter no expression
And like I said, they were damned either way. Either they'd be destroyed by Persephone's actions, or they'd be destroyed (?) by Kratos' actions.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just looked at the script, and it seems you were right.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Anything for himself. Maybe. Always does things for himself. Nah.
We have the classic captain+key example you brought up earlier. He wanted to save those women.

CIS on Zeus' part, not PIS. He could have ended the fight the first time he got big.
Or he was just weakened from the drain and then recovered most of his energy back during the fight.

a) He said it himself, he didn't go there to save the captain.
b) Those two were fighting to get up on the ledge. Kratos won.

CIS? He really couldn't have "ended" the fight. Because we saw what happened when he was big.

Maybe? I don't understand how he could get his energy back just by "grabbing" the blade, because otherwise, couldn't Kratos have done the same?

1. So? No. Saving someone has nonething to do with killing someone innocent (unless you're forced to).

NIM7ndyA7bM&feature=related

Erase that. He impaled him and kicked him off after. Yup, that's Kratos for ya'.

ScreamPaste
Ship Captain. "I could help you up, but no, eat a dick"

iChaos
Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Play the game, because you're just plain wrong here. It was pretty bluntly stated that the character who's life he had in mind was his daughter's, and it doesn't take an idiot to notice that leaving her again killed him on the inside. Hell, beforehand it was also just as bluntly said that being with his family again was "all that he ever wanted".

Nevermind, I just looked at the script, and you're right.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
EDIT: Nevermind, I just looked at the script, and it seems you were right.



CIS? He really couldn't have "ended" the fight. Because we saw what happened when he was big.

Maybe? I don't understand how he could get his energy back just by "grabbing" the blade, because otherwise, couldn't Kratos have done the same?

1. So? No. Saving someone has nonething to do with killing someone innocent (unless you're forced to).

NIM7ndyA7bM&feature=related

Erase that. He impaled him and kicked him off after. Yup, that's Kratos for ya'.

Indeed we did; Kratos couldn't counter the Lightning Storm.

It's just a hypothesis. Considering Zeus is pretty much the true wielder of the Blade, he could have. Kratos probably didn't know the Blade even existed until Zeus told him about it.

1. He technically didn't even kill him. He didn't save him either.

~ He is capable of 'evil' acts, I'm not denying that. That by itself doesn't make him evil though. He's capable of 'good' acts as well.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ship Captain. "I could help you up, but no, eat a dick"

Link: I could let my enemies live and just walk away, but no, kiss my ass.

Pointless, but meh.

Phanteros
Captain of the ship was a coward and abandon his men for his own life, regardless which so he isn't innocent himself.

ScreamPaste
Not helping the man was an evil act, and an intentional one.

Kratos is evil. His evil acts FAR outweigh any good acts, and those are few and far between, if they exist at all.

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Not helping the man was an evil act, and an intentional one.

Kratos is evil. His evil acts FAR outweigh any good acts, and those are few and far between, if they exist at all. you mean his giving up his chance to see his daughter to save the world was an evil act? Why help a coward that left his men behind to die so he can do the same to you?

ScreamPaste
This is an 'evil' line of thought.

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is an 'evil' line of thought. No this is a "how to make sure you won't get betrayed later by the a guy that left his crew for dead" line of thought. plus you failed to answer my question.

Nemesis X
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Kratos is evil.

http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/7282/original/Facepalm.jpg

ScreamPaste
Cause the captain could do SOOO much to Kratos, right? I lol'd.

Answer: One good act redeems millions of evil ones?

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
millions of evil ones?

I lol'd.

MooCowofJustice
Link hasn't killed anyone in canon. He only fights the bosses when they attack, and the ones that aren't totally evil don't die.

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Cause the captain could do SOOO much to Kratos, right? I lol'd.

Answer: One good act redeems millions of evil ones? You still didn't give a reason why Kratos should save someone like him. GOW morality doesn't follow LOZ morality so applying it is fail in itself seeing as both have their definements on evil.

the captain didn't deserve to live if he was planning on ditching his troops like a coward.

Sappho
Originally posted by Phanteros
You still didn't give a reason why Kratos should save someone like him. GOW morality doesn't follow LOZ morality so applying it is fail in itself seeing as both have their definements on evil.

the captain didn't deserve to live if he was planning on ditching his troops like a coward.
agreed. kratos definitely is not evil.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Link hasn't killed anyone in canon. He only fights the bosses when they attack, and the ones that aren't totally evil don't die.

He doesn't kill his enemies?
Killing is killing and is 'evil', regardless of whether it's a good or evil being.

~ Meh, we're arguing in circles on this whole Kratos is evil thing. There is no right answer anyway.

Back to the topic on hand, Kratos wins.

ScreamPaste
Disagreed, Link carries Kratos' anathema.

iChaos
*MESSAGE DELETED*

iChaos
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Indeed we did; Kratos couldn't counter the Lightning Storm.

It's just a hypothesis. Considering Zeus is pretty much the true wielder of the Blade, he could have. Kratos probably didn't know the Blade even existed until Zeus told him about it.

1. He technically didn't even kill him. He didn't save him either.

~ He is capable of 'evil' acts, I'm not denying that. That by itself doesn't make him evil though. He's capable of 'good' acts as well.

Fair enough.

1. Well, good point, but I think I still consider it a "bad" act. And not to mention that Kratos went to Hades, so that would mean that he is "bad".

I guess I agree.

fascistcrusader
Greek Hades is not synonymous with Judeo-Christian Hell. In Ancient Greek mythology Hades was the place where ALL dead mortals went, regardless of their actions in life.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
Fair enough.

1. Well, good point, but I think I still consider it a "bad" act. And not to mention that Kratos went to Hades, so that would mean that he is "bad".

I guess I agree.

1. We're arguing in circles about this whole 'alignment' thing, so any further debate is pointless really.

Also, FC is right. Whenever someone in Greek Myths died, they went a certain place in Hades. From there, they were either sent to Tartarus (where the damned ones go), or the Elysium (where the virtuous ones go). Tartarus and Elysium are just two areas in Hades. That's about the basic explanation.


Wise choice stick out tongue.

First_Tsurugi06
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Link carries Kratos' bags for him.

Fixed.

Link's not even going to land a hit without getting whatever limb he attacks with torn off.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Disagreed, Link carries Kratos' anathema.

Carrying and getting the chance to use something are two different things. Link's better off bending over 131

ScreamPaste
@First.

Link's not even going to land a hit without getting whatever limb he attacks with torn off. Even if that were the case, Link would still win. He can live without an arm, KRatos can't without a head.

It's not though.

@DP, and how will Kratos stop him from using the sword? He's only got a sword, too, and Link's got more shows of swordsmanship skill.

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by ScreamPaste

Kratos is evil.
Same can be said for Link.

Link is evil for killing his enemies.


Also, you are far underestimating the strength of the Blade of Olympus.

Zeus ended the war against the Titans, by simply thrusting the sword to the ground.


r6A1KFnqvgI

ScreamPaste
Seen it.

Your claim that Link is evil is extremely flawed.
1. He'd never be able to even touch the Master Sword if her were.
2. He's never killed anyone, only destroyed evil creations of Ganon/ressurected and/or destructive monsters that *will* kill peopleif he doesn't destroy them.
3. His behaviour is antithetical to what evil is.

Link goes around helping people, for no personal gain, at the risk of his own life, and cost of his own time and suffering. Link when presented with a foe that is not irredeemably evil will not kill them, simply incapacitate them, as seen in OoT/MM. Infact, Link is often *worse* off at the end of his quests, having lost a great deal of what he had before.

Kratos kills people, if they get in his way, they have something he wants, they're ugly, for the lulz, because he can, because he's evil. He's an ass. He's incredibly selfish and everything he does (minus one act) is motivated by this. Sounds like a real hero... Ohwait.

You're under-estimating the triforce of courage and master sword and what they can achieve working in tandem, in the hands of a more skilled swordsman than Kratos, who's never seen to be able to replicate Zeus' feat.

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You're under-estimating the triforce of courage and master sword and what they can achieve working in tandem, in the hands of a more skilled swordsman than Kratos, who's never seen to be able to replicate Zeus' feat.
Has the Master Sword / Triforce of Courage ended the war against Ganon? With one attack?

If the Master Sword is even as strong as the BoO (which I doubt), then Ganon should've been sealed away or killed a long time ago.

ScreamPaste
Like I keep saying: Ganon > Zeus. Kratos has never displayed durability anywhere close to the level of Ganondorf. Even the gods can't stop him in the Zelda series, they intervene in WW, but even with the bulk of his power pinned down, he breaks free of their seal. (thoguh it does take him some time.)

But, for the sword alone to pin down the majority of something that powerful, while depowered, mind you, is a feat in itself. One blow would be enough to kill Kratos, of that I am sure.

AsbestosFlaygon
No, considering the fact that Kratos isn't 'evil' as you say he is.

Master Sword won't be as effective as it is against Kratos like it was against Ganon.

First_Tsurugi06
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Even if that were the case, Link would still win. He can live without an arm, KRatos can't without a head.

It's not though.

@DP, and how will Kratos stop him from using the sword? He's only got a sword, too, and Link's got more shows of swordsmanship skill.

Link is anything but more skilled than Kratos first of all. Kratos, with every physical advantage over any Link to ever exist, and training from the Gods that he maintains, could effortlessly kill Link with his bare hands. Link will only live armless for as long as it takes Kratos to beat him to death with it. Link with just a sword is the kind of character that Kratos would use as a battering ram. The best he'd be is just another Perseus fight. Kratos is to Link what Link is to someone like Altair. Like I said, Link won't even get a chance to strike.

The Gods being unable to kill Ganondorf speaks more for the apparent fact that there's less to them than there is to the GoW Gods, because as shown in Atlas' flashback, just ONE God managed to fell the ENTIRE army of Titans, ending a war that shaped the entire world.

MooCowofJustice
I love it when philosophical differences are the only things in the way of finishing a debate.

Kratos for Evil tierz.

First_Tsurugi06
Philosophical bantering is the only grounded excuse calling Kratos anything along the lines of evil when all he's doing is fitting with the source material.

MooCowofJustice
Point? Why does fitting with source material exclude him from being evil?

ScreamPaste
Link has more feats of swordsmanship = more skilled. no expression
There are no feats to show this, so why is it assumed?

Link >>>>> Perseus. no expression



Actually, it'll be more effective, if anything. Kratos has more evil acts under his belt than Ganondorf does, and is more of a douchebag. KRatos has far lower durability, as well.

Burning thought
Him being good or evil is irrelvent, the MS has never canonically stopped a being instantly just because his evil. Hell link would have to hit Kratos first, Kratos has more reach to begin with, and strength, and power in his sword. But the thread is pretty much finished, especially when this truth has already been posted:

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
The Blade of Olympus wipes out entire armies and sends super giants to Tartarus.

The Master Sword after the battle:

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5711/masterswordscrewed.jpg

First_Tsurugi06
I guess I worded it wrong. My point was basically the first part of what I'd said in that there people arguing him being evil are the ones bringing up anything philosophical. Fitting the source is actually beside my point.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Link hasn't killed anyone in canon. He only fights the bosses when they attack, and the ones that aren't totally evil don't die.

This is a confusing post. First you say Link doesn't kill anyone but then you say the ones who aren't evil don't die.

Whatever. Anyway, Link has killed more than just bosses and I doubt he skipped killing Stalfos and Iron Knuckles in OoT.

I'm sure there were Hyrule knights getting slaughtered by Link back in LttP. Lets not forget about the Keese, snakes, and rats.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Disagreed, Link carries Kratos' anathema.

And you're assuming the Master Sword will kill him instantly despite no proof of it ever killing an evil being in one hit? That's just like claiming a Pichu's thundershock would KO Lugia in one hit.

Burning thought
So Link kills animals?.....

iChaos
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Greek Hades is not synonymous with Judeo-Christian Hell. In Ancient Greek mythology Hades was the place where ALL dead mortals went, regardless of their actions in life.

No. "Good" people went to Elysium Fields and "Bad" people went to Hades. And this is pretty obvious because if "all dead mortals" went there then why didn't Kratos daughter go to Hades?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1. We're arguing in circles about this whole 'alignment' thing, so any further debate is pointless really.

Also, FC is right. Whenever someone in Greek Myths died, they went a certain place in Hades. From there, they were either sent to Tartarus (where the damned ones go), or the Elysium (where the virtuous ones go). Tartarus and Elysium are just two areas in Hades. That's about the basic explanation.


Wise choice stick out tongue.

See above.

fascistcrusader
Even if Kratos were more evil than Lucifer himself it wouldn't change the fact that he would utterly destroy Link in any fight.

I don't know what Link you're speaking of, but the Link from Legend of Zelda does not have a single item that can instantly kill anything evil. Even when Link is armed with not only the Master Sword, but also all his other items, he is still the underdog in all his fights with the undeniably evil Ganon. All the MS gives him is a chance against evil beings much more powerful than himself, it is in no way a trump card or instant killer of evil.

All of this is pointless, however, as Kratos is not truly evil. In either situation though Kratos picks up Link by his ankles and tears him in half.

Burning thought
Furthermore its only through fan fiction, no limits fallacy and reaching that this whole idea of the Mastersword protecting him against evil has come about.

fascistcrusader
@iChaos:

Elysium is WITHIN Hades.

MooCowofJustice
The Master Sword protects Link.

And yeah, I left some things out of the other post. Link hasn't killed anyone but bosses in Canon. And then for bosses like the second one in Twilight Princess which is a person possessed by evil, the person does not die.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Link hasn't killed anyone but bosses in Canon.

So you're saying Link has spared every Stalfos, Iron Knuckle, Leever, Moblin, Peahat, Darknut, Dodongo, Gibdo, ReDead, Octorok, LikeLike, Wizrobe, etc.?

Proof please.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
So you're saying Link has spared every Stalfos, Iron Knuckle, Leever, Moblin, Peahat, Darknut, Dodongo, Gibdo, ReDead, Octorok, LikeLike, Wizrobe, etc.?

Proof please.

You need to prove he hasn't, because none of that has happened in anything canon. It was all gameplay.

I even used that argument in a different thread. It didn't fly there either.

First_Tsurugi06
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
The Master Sword protects Link.

Lol no. If that were the case then Ganon wouldn't have handed Link's ass as soundly as he did both times in WW, the second of which being AFTER the sword's power was restored. At best, it expells evil from within him/keeps other such oriented magic at bay, it doesn't protect him from being utterly manhandled by physically superior characters i.e. Kratos.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
You need to prove he hasn't, because none of that has happened in anything canon. It was all gameplay.

sad You can't be serious.

Even if it isn't a cutscene, there is no way Link could've made it to all those bosses without killing the flunkies in his way. Where do you think he gets deku seeds and sticks if he hasn't even touched a Deku Baba?

Burning thought
I dont think its canonically done much of anything outside of specific plot elements, its just a snazzy sword thats supposed to be good against evil. Fact is the amount of times Ganon has returned from its attacks seems to prove even that wrong.

iChaos
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
@iChaos:

Elysium is WITHIN Hades.


Irrelevant. And besides, it is not Hades itself.

And isn't that Link bullshit a no-limit fallacy?

fascistcrusader
It's entirely relevant, and it is a part of Hades itself. Kratos being in Hades has nothing to do with him being good or evil, all it proves is that he was dead.

MooCowofJustice
Yeah, the Master Sword protects Link from a lot of Ganon's game breaking powers, like possession and death curses. TK, too.

Doesn't matter Sin, you need to prove it.

And Kratos isn't physically superior.

fascistcrusader
Kratos isn't physically superior to Link? I suppose atomic weapons aren't more destructive than cast iron filled with black powder then.

ScreamPaste
Show me proof Kratos is physicly superior. This is amssive wank and overhyping of his feats.

iChaos
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
It's entirely relevant, and it is a part of Hades itself. Kratos being in Hades has nothing to do with him being good or evil, all it proves is that he was dead.

No, it proves that he is bad. "It" being a part of Hades means nonething. Esylium Fields is "a part" of Hades, but guess what? Kratos' daughter didn't go to Hades, now did she? If he wasn't "bad" then why didn't he go to Esylium Fields, then (and it even says this in Greek Myth)? It's obvious that Hades is a punishment for people who were bad. I mean, look at The Barbarian King.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice

Doesn't matter Sin, you need to prove it.

It's you who needs to prove something. If Link only killed bosses, the Legend of Zelda would be Shadow of the Colossus.




Kratos does strength feats throughout his games. He ripped monsters apart, tore off Cerberus heads, prevented himself from being squashed between Atlas's fingers, knocked down a bronze giant when he was about to be stomped, swing huge pillars like a bat, and impaled a huge hydra head by pulling it with to a pole, and flipped over a temple. OoT Link lifted a huge pillar, with Golden Gauntlets.

Link can push heavy blocks? Kratos does that faster and could send them flying several feet by kicking them.

iChaos
Well, it was hard for him to push Pandora's Box, which two Harpies easily picked up and carried away.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
It's you who needs to prove something. If Link only killed bosses, the Legend of Zelda would be Shadow of the Colossus.

This is your theory. So you want me to prove it for you?

fascistcrusader
No, it doesn't. All mortals go to the underworld of Hades at death. Go read a book for heaven's sake. You're confusing Christian Hell with the Greek underworld, they're not even close to being the same thing. Seeing as how Elysium fields is a part of Hades, that means anyone there is also in Hades, just like you being in Yankees stadium doesn't mean you are no longer in NYC, just a smaller part of it.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
No. "Good" people went to Elysium Fields and "Bad" people went to Hades. And this is pretty obvious because if "all dead mortals" went there then why didn't Kratos daughter go to Hades?



See above.

Then you do not know what happened to the dead in Greek Myths.

Since you think you are correct about what Hades is and it being the place where the 'bad' guys go, what is the Captain doing there? He cannot be innocent if he was in Hades with Kratos no expression.

iChaos
Yes, it does. No they don't (and I know they're not the same). Like I said, it being a part of something means nonething. It's just a place under the world (not being in Hades?). And there was a couple of mortals who went to the Field in the first place. Well, in Greek Myth, it wasn't said where it was, AFAIR. Achillies, Ajax, Patroclus, and Antiochus all went to Elysium Fields. Last I checked, only righteous people went to Elysium Fields. Yes, mortals went to Hades, but mortals went to Tartarus as well, I think. So does Kratos being dropped down in Tartarus count? And in GoW, I think it's different.

iChaos
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Then you do not know what happened to the dead in Greek Myths.

Since you think you are correct about what Hades is and it being the place where the 'bad' guys go, what is the Captain doing there? He cannot be innocent if he was in Hades with Kratos no expression.

Hey, who knows, he could be bad (I doubt it, though). And GoW doesn't exactly follow the myths. I mean, in GoW, Hades is a place of torment (hell, I COULD be wrong).

Burning thought
Hey! I know maybe he cought some fish and for eating them amongst his crew, they all deserve to go to the deepest bowls of Hades!

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
This is your theory. So you want me to prove it for you?

I did ask proof a few posts ago.

Phanteros
In God of war you see a patch in Hades for the souls of the blessed(CoO) where his daughter is at.

Phanteros
Originally posted by iChaos
Well, it was hard for him to push Pandora's Box, which two Harpies easily picked up and carried away. I wasn't sure he was strugggling because later in a section in Gow 2 he picked up a small stone house/hut/or whatever it was and slide it on the pass near by to cross over.

iChaos
I really wouldn't say he was "struggling" but it was hard for him to push. Maybe he was tired, lol.

In God of war you see a patch in Hades for the souls of the blessed(CoO) where his daughter is at.

What?

Phanteros
Originally posted by iChaos
I really wouldn't say he was "struggling" but it was hard for him to push. Maybe he was tired, lol.

In God of war you see a patch in Hades for the souls of the blessed(CoO) where his daughter is at.

What? Let me get a quote said earlier.




Elysium is the field dedicated to the virtuous ones in Hades, where Kratos Daughter resided at.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by iChaos
Hey, who knows, he could be bad (I doubt it, though). And GoW doesn't exactly follow the myths. I mean, in GoW, Hades is a place of torment (hell, I COULD be wrong).

You've lost your point erm.

If the Captain is not good, fair enough, your point holds. However, it can't be an 'evil' act (Kratos letting the Captain die) since he left an evil person to die, and y'all have no problem with Link killing the evil guys. In fact, it should be a 'good' act, since he stopped the 'evil' guy from escaping and gave him what he deserved (torment).

If the Captain is good or not evil, then your point about Hades being the place where evil souls go, does not hold.

~ Seeing as Tartarus & the Elysium Fields exist and are part of the Underworld in the GoW-verse, I doubt it's different from the myths.

As for the daughter, we only know that she was in the Elysium fields. There is no evidence to suggest that she was dropped in or immediately went to the Elysium Fields just after she died.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by Phanteros
I wasn't sure he was strugggling because later in a section in Gow 2 he picked up a small stone house/hut/or whatever it was and slide it on the pass near by to cross over.

I'd call it a mini temple.

Demonic Phoenix
PB could not be easily pushed by Kratos, and yet, it floated on water. There's obviously a mystical aspect about it.

ScreamPaste
Way to twist the situation.

The Captain isn't a creation of Ganondorf or any such other being, he's not beyond redemption, and Link would have certainly helped him back up. Kratos didn't leave him there for any reason other than his own amusement, either. Link never kills anyone, only incapacitates them, and he only fights for selfless reasons. BIIIG difference.

Kratos = evil.

Master sword = smites him.

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Way to twist the situation.

The Captain isn't a creation of Ganondorf or any such other being, he's not beyond redemption, and Link would have certainly helped him back up. Kratos didn't leave him there for any reason other than his own amusement, either. Link never kills anyone, only incapacitates them, and he only fights for selfless reasons. BIIIG difference.

Kratos = evil.

Master sword = smites him. sense when did the master sword become instant kill on anyone? even if the opponents are evil that does mean he can't one shot them alone with it. The sword only makes it more effective to harm them.

Sadly Zelda logic doesn't apply to GoW and obvious the Captain went to hell as well I guess he wasn't innocent after all.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Way to twist the situation.

The Captain isn't a creation of Ganondorf or any such other being, he's not beyond redemption, and Link would have certainly helped him back up. Kratos didn't leave him there for any reason other than his own amusement, either. Link never kills anyone, only incapacitates them, and he only fights for selfless reasons. BIIIG difference.

Kratos = evil.

Master sword = smites him.
Way to misunderstand the point of that statement thumb up.
Next time, try to read the whole post.

ScreamPaste
Read it, picked it apart.

Makes no sense.

Lern2basicmorality.

Demonic Phoenix
No you didn't no expression. It wasn't even the discussion that I was countering no expression. The Master Sword and Link had nothing to do with it.

LRN2READ.

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Read it, picked it apart.

Makes no sense.

Lern2basicmorality. ignoring my questions isn't helping your argument.

Morality is human interpretations and based on how people see a person for what he is, to the point opinion. You interpret him evil, I interpret him not evil based on his universal different and how they define morality/laws.


ex. The south in the civil war was depicted as evil by North people for their holding of slaves and laws making them to secure this right. There was several properganda depicting them torturing their slaves(this may be true back in 1600s but 1800s change this once they start seeing them as investments) but to the South they defined it as a necessary good.

now are they evil?

the situation is argue here in Kratos vs Link. Kratos universe never had the laws of the LOZ universe. so it can't be evil to treat the Captain that way considering the Spartan's hate cowards and consider it a sin to leave troops behind in battle.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Read it, picked it apart.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No you didn't no expression. It wasn't even the discussion that I was countering no expression. The Master Sword and Link had nothing to do with it.

LRN2READ.

Bottom of the page >__>.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Phanteros
Morality is human interpretations and based on how people see a person for what he is, to the point opinion. You interpret him evil, I interpret him not evil based on his universal different and how they define morality/laws.

This, for the most part, is true.

Originally posted by Phanteros
the situation is argue here in Kratos vs Link. Kratos universe never had the laws of the LOZ universe. so it can't be evil to treat the Captain that way considering the Spartan's hate cowards and consider it a sin to leave troops behind in battle.

As for the Captain, he wasn't the captain of an army, he was the captain of an ordinary ship. Cowardice probably had nothing to do with it, even though he was one.

fascistcrusader
Why are you people still arguing whether or not Kratos is evil? We've already established that against pure evil like Ganon Link is still outmatched even with the MS, so it makes no difference whether Kratos is an angel or Satan himself, he still outclasses Link exponentially in every are imaginable. Kratos stomps no matter his reasons for his actions.

ScreamPaste
Kratos is evil, and no amount of "but to him..." will change the fact that everyone can agree killing for joy is an evil act, and that is what he did/does.

Besides which point the sword is from LoZ and operates under LoZ laws, which actually aren't even different than any other laws. The sword smites Kratos.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Why are you people still arguing whether or not Kratos is evil? We've already established that against pure evil like Ganon Link is still outmatched even with the MS, so it makes no difference whether Kratos is an angel or Satan himself, he still outclasses Link exponentially in every are imaginable. Kratos stomps no matter his reasons for his actions.

I was debating the Hades thing with iChaos.

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Kratos is evil, and no amount of "but to him..." will change the fact that everyone can agree killing for joy is an evil act, and that is what he did/does.

Besides which point the sword is from LoZ and operates under LoZ laws, which actually aren't even different than any other laws. The sword smites Kratos. Since when did he kill for joy? you haven't rebuke none of our other points about it. He was a servant, and servants don't get choose what they do or not do. they follow orders.

ScreamPaste
He chose to kill the captain. Chose to go raping and pillaging, chose to do all sorts of evil acts.

He's evil. no expression I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp?

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He chose to kill the captain. Chose to go raping and pillaging, chose to do all sorts of evil acts.

He's evil. no expression I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp? When did he rape people? You ignored the fact that he's a servant not a chooser.

fascistcrusader
Once again, even if Kratos were indwelt by the devil himself, he still owns Link. The LoZ series has show time and time again that even the most evil beings like Ganon still aren't instantly killed by the Master Sword, and Kratos' feats are infinitely better than Link's.

ScreamPaste
If you were a soldier, and I ordered you to kill civilian children, you'd do it, with a clean concience?

And nah, his first act as the God of War was to go around waving his diefic penis at anythign that wasn't sparta. Randomly waging war with no just cause? Evil act.

iChaos
Yeah, Athena did state that he destroyed citites.

iChaos
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If the Captain is not good, fair enough, your point holds. However, it can't be an 'evil' act (Kratos letting the Captain die) since he left an evil person to die, and y'all have no problem with Link killing the evil guys. In fact, it should be a 'good' act, since he stopped the 'evil' guy from escaping and gave him what he deserved (torment).

If the Captain is good or not evil, then your point about Hades being the place where evil souls go, does not hold.

~ Seeing as Tartarus & the Elysium Fields exist and are part of the Underworld in the GoW-verse, I doubt it's different from the myths.

As for the daughter, we only know that she was in the Elysium fields. There is no evidence to suggest that she was dropped in or immediately went to the Elysium Fields just after she died.

Maybe it was a plot device? I don't know.

Not really.

I thought Elysium Fields wasn't stated to be where it was?

There is no evidence that she didn't either.

Kratos also sacrificed a Spartan(?).

Demonic Phoenix
Nah, it wasn't a plot device. I doubt the captain was evil.

It didn't need to be stated erm. Firstly, Persephone holds considerable power there, and she is the Queen of the Underworld.
Secondly, the fight against Atlas and Persephone took place in the Underworld. We fight them just after leaving the Elysium. There's no teleport or warp that takes place, just a flight by Persephone.

True, but I don't think anyone has ever entered the Elysium fields directly without first going through the Styx and such.

Originally posted by iChaos
Yeah, Athena did state that he destroyed citites.

He was the God of War after all, or rather bloodlust. What did you expect him to do, plant daisies?

LLLLLink
OH. MY. GOD.

I get finally get back and I find this BS thread?! Lets's get started...

Kratos is evil, first off. It doesnt matter what Kratos' intentions are, or what good he's done in the past, or even what Link himself thinks about Kratos. It's the Master Sword that decides whether someone is good or evil. So, the discussion about Kratos having evil properties is over. He does, as far as the MS is concerned. Period. Meaning, Kratos is weak to it.

Next, the BoO is only as strong as its wielder. Here's a piece from the GoW wiki:

"Unknown to Kratos, Zeus tricks him into draining all of his godly Power into it, supposedly giving Kratos the "strength to destroy all.""

Kratos had to dump all of his own power into it. This leads us to conclude that the Sword's strength varies with the weilder's strength. Also, Kratos is an neanderthal who appearantly is easily mindgamed.

"Zeus starts attacking as a giant, but when Kratos stabbed the blade through Zeus's hand, Zeus shrinks to the size of a mortal man, suggesting the blade had stolen some of Zeus's power; though Zeus eventually regrows, suggesting he retook his power when he stole the blade from Kratos."

This shows that the BoO can temporarily drain energy, although the said energy can be reclaimed.


How about some MS facts?

The Master Sword prevents any TK (i.e. the force, psychic manipulation, ect.) from working on Link. Proof of this is the Bongo Bongo attack in OoT. Shiek got freaked up by BB's TK, but Link had to be attacked directly instead of TK. Same thing with the Zant fight in TP.

The Master Sword makes Link impervious to curses and the like. Even "permanent" curses are nullified by the MS. Proof of this is the MS drawing scene in TP. Link is permanently a wolf, but just being in the mere presence of the Sword makes Link purified of the curse.

"The Master Sword is a blade that evil ones may never touch." I cant remember right now if it was Shiek or Rauru that said this, but either way, this is pretty simple.
Kratos = evil, Evil = no touching MS. 'Nuff said.

The Master Sword IS time. Here's a quote from Shiek in OoT: "As long as you hold the Master Sword, you hold time itself in your hands."

The Master Sword is indestructable and immune to the ravages of time and the elements. Be observant in TP. The proof is there.

Well, there's a scintilla of info for you. Chew thoroughly before swallowing.

Burning thought
Erm no it doesnt mean he is weak to anything, it just means the MS will perhaps some kind of unfounded and unpecified bonus against him. And show me the factual database that outlines the MS choosing its own morales and deciding anything.

Most of your MS feats are blind assumptions based on the simple idea that Link wasnt made a tool of by TK or some other form, you cannot actually show a foe not using TK and actually claiming or commenting on the fact its because of the MS.

Link is saved by one curse and you claim he is impervious to curses? lol.....thats a no limit fallacy and furthermore hardly evidence that the sword makes him impervious to any curse.

Kratos doesnt plan on touching it and if he did, theres no proof that anything will even happen. Characters are sometimes falliable and I doubt those characters are omnicient.

The same goes for the rest of your quotes, has the MS actually been tested against anything as powerful as Kratos or his weapons?

iChaos
"as powerful as Kratos"

Kratos isn't more powerful than Ganon...

ScreamPaste
Especially not in terms of durability.

Burning thought
Originally posted by iChaos
"as powerful as Kratos"

Kratos isn't more powerful than Ganon...

He is stronger and has more weapon types. He also has a lot of sorceries. Hes more powerful where it counts against Link.

iChaos
Physically.

Otherwise, he isn't.

Burning thought
Physical is all he needs, and Ganon has no useful powers that he actually uses against Link and considering Kratos outclasses Link in reach and strength then Link is destroyed. Link simply is not quick enough against Kratos, even Links skill in comparison is debatable.

ScreamPaste
There's no evidence Kratos is stronger, and he only has a sword here. Link is a better swordsman, Kratos loses.

Wei Phoenix
Kratos is a spartan and he was a warrior before following Ares, the BOO also ended a war with a swipe, he has the stronger weapon, he's reacted to lightning and he's resisted Atlas' strength who was holding up the world IIRC.

LLLLLink
Kratos, stronger? We can look at Kratos opening a door or pushing a block and deduce that he is nothing of the sort.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
There's no evidence Kratos is stronger, and he only has a sword here. Link is a better swordsman, Kratos loses.

Sure there is, Links a little midget who lifts pebbles and Kratos is a hulking Spartan who tosses giant bronze men....

Link is a better swordsmen lol? what training has he had that compares to that of a Spartan and Ares? against that of a man who has lived his life fueled by war...

iChaos
Originally posted by Burning thought
Physical is all he needs, and Ganon has no useful powers that he actually uses against Link and considering Kratos outclasses Link in reach and strength then Link is destroyed. Link simply is not quick enough against Kratos, even Links skill in comparison is debatable.

Physical strength doesn't automatically = win. And Kratos isn't quick enough, either. And Kratos has useful powers? What does that have to do with him > Ganon.

LLLLLink
Link is a midget? That is utter fecal matter. Adult Link stands taller than most other men in Hyrule. A height of 6' is feasible.

Burning thought
Well it means he can turn link to stone...but thats irrelevent rly, its a sword fight. Either way he is still faster, I dont buy that lightning dodge stuff but his combos with the blades of chaos can make him look a blur and Link could not stop Kratos. As soon as he tries to block his sword is probably shattered and so is his arms. Kratos has a height and reach advantage.

iChaos
Originally posted by Burning thought
Sure there is, Links a little midget who lifts pebbles and Kratos is a hulking Spartan who tosses giant bronze men....

Link is a better swordsmen lol? what training has he had that compares to that of a Spartan and Ares? against that of a man who has lived his life fueled by war...

And yet, he couldn't even outstrength Icarus or the Sisters of Fate (I think). In sword feats, Ares has nonething. Being a Spartan doesn't mean shit, the Barbarians whooped the shit out of them.

EDIT: Kratos couldn't even "shatter" a regular human.

LLLLLink
Also, BT, dont forget that Link turned Ganon to stone in WW.

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