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We all know the Swiss for making great cheese and bank accounts and army knives and awesome porn. But lately there is a storm of controversy with some political advertising as well as cultural clashes.

Read here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/12/the-swiss-minaret-ban-islamophobia-lightly-veiled.html


Also, there is this:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3880/swisssheepl468x635.jpg

Swisher sweets

They hold simple vote-offs for different issues and legislations at the times. This time the people voted against the terro....muslims.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
They hold simple vote-offs for different issues and legislations at the times. This time the people voted against the terro....muslims.

"That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind."

Eh, Switzerland still kicks ass though I don't really approve of this.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
They hold simple vote-offs for different issues and legislations at the times. This time the people voted against the terro....muslims. this.

I can understand the distaste and even the vitriol against political Islam, or religion in general, but it's just a minaret. It doesn't have to mean anything.

Originally posted by Dr Will Hatch
I can understand the distaste and even the vitriol against political Islam, or religion in general, but it's just a minaret. It doesn't have to mean anything. so why would muslims give a ****?

I don't really see the point of banning minarets.

It's been said already but there is no point to banning minarets. It does nothing but alienate and create anger/conflict. No need for that.



Now, if the Islamic community was trying to change law to fit their religious beliefs, sure, smack that down. (Which has been tried.)

I think that Bic is trying to say that in Islam countries they aren't as tolerant to other religions as Europeans. Thus Europe is practically giving them a taste of their own medicine. However, this campaign and ban says otherwise...

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's just racist as hell. If you were in the middle ages, you'd be saying "they should ban churches everywhere, it's only around in backward countries in Europe. If you tried to build a mosque in france you'd be stoned to death".

Since when does Islam equate to a "race"?

Originally posted by jaden101
Since when does Islam equate to a "race"?

depends

most Islamic philosophers who speak of Pan-Arabism or Arab Nationalism, both of which are hugely popular in the Middle East, speak of an Arab right as the true Muslims.

Its complex, and even Qutb, the philosophical father of modern Jihad, didn't tie the race and religion to each other in an "arab=muslim" sense, though he did speak of the privilege of Muslims being Allah's chosen people to receive the revelations of Mohamed.

I like Switzerland...its nice there and the food is great

Originally posted by inimalist
depends

most Islamic philosophers who speak of Pan-Arabism or Arab Nationalism, both of which are hugely popular in the Middle East, speak of an Arab right as the true Muslims.

Its complex, and even Qutb, the philosophical father of modern Jihad, didn't tie the race and religion to each other in an "arab=muslim" sense, though he did speak of the privilege of Muslims being Allah's chosen people to receive the revelations of Mohamed.

I don't think Pan Arabism is that popular with the actual populations. Sure there are people who will argue they're ''Arabs'' outside of Arabian Peninsula, but many of those who do speak Arabic would insist they're Lebanese or Syrian, or Egyptian, not ''Arab''...in my experience.
Those arguments, (again, in my experience) are mostly heard by Palestinians and actual Arabs fromArabian Peninsula.
I am yet to hear Iraqi or Syrian or Lebanese to call themselves Arabs.
Those who know their history would fiercely argue against any such claim of ''arabism''.

Although I do not doubt there are people who feel like such.

Not to mention that tying Islam to a race (ie ''Arab'' even though they're in race terms Caucasians, but never mind), excludes, Iranians, Indonesians (Indonesia being the largest Muslim country in the world), Turks, Kurds, Malaysians, Pakistanis, Somalis...etc.

I do not believe Islam can be tied to a race, just like Christianity cannot. And if we include Beta Israel, neither can Judaism.

hmmm, Al Jazeera had given me the notion that it was more popular, but it is a peninsuila based new agency, and they do have some biases about how they present the region to the west.

I don't disagree though. I don't think Islam and arab go hand in hand, but some people, including muslims, do

Good for the Swiss. Other countries should do the same

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Good for the Swiss. Other countries should do the same

Yeah! What problems could arise from pissing off Muslims?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yeah! What problems could arise from pissing off Muslims?

Why should we worry about that? They are trying to kill us now anyway. Islam is the most intolerant and backward religion there is. I know Judahism and Christianity have been historically violent and intolerant as well but both of them have gone through a renessance, something Islam hasn't. In the modern world there's no comparing the violence perpetrated by Islam with any other religion.

Islam wants to spread itself around the world but can a US Army chaplan wear a cross when a muslim country? No, he can't. God forbid someone make a simple cartoon mocking Muhammad, the entire islamic world throws a hissy fit. A dutch film maker explores the treatment of women in muslim countries and he is murdered.


Now you have an entire country, Iran, which is controlled by fundamentalist Shia Muslims and they have openly stated their intention is to wipe Israel off the map and they are actively pursuing nuclear weapos and their crackpot President actually believes he is here to bring about the end of the world. Then there is pakistan, a country which already has nuclear weapons and it is dangerously unstable and on the verge of falling under control of radical muslims.

Be politically correct all you want but radical Islam is the single biggest threat facing the world today, we should take it VERY seriously.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Islam wants to spread itself around the world

I'm tired of that stupid complaint. Every philosophy wants to spread itself across the world. They wouldn't survive if followers didn't think the idea was good.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Be politically correct all you want but radical Islam is the single biggest threat facing the world today, we should take it VERY seriously.

So why would you support the idea of doing things that are likely to increase the number of radical Muslims?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yeah! What problems could arise from pissing off Muslims?

apart from being blown up, shot or accused of being a nazi?

Originally posted by Bicnarok
apart from being blown up, shot or accused of being a nazi?

Let me rephrase.

"Yeah! What problems could arise from pissing off Muslims? "

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm tired of that stupid complaint. Every philosophy wants to spread itself across the world. They wouldn't survive if followers didn't think the idea was good.



So why would you support the idea of doing things that are likely to increase the number of radical Muslims?

Most other philosiphies don't want to subject us to things like sharia law.

And

we should set up our societies based on what muslims want?

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud


And

we should set up our societies based on what muslims want? I dunno. That's a toughie.


A question like that deserves another question....


WWJD?

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's just racist as hell. Islam is not a race it is a religion. If you want to call that racist, maybe you should call it racist whenever a christian or a jew is portrayed as a bad guy.

when they start throwing out people just because they are middle eastern, i will concede that that's racist. Muslims are just people who follow the islam philosophy. Jews are just people who follow the jewish philosophy. A race is something you're born with, a religion is something you chose. you are a very ignorant person, aren't you?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Let me rephrase.

"Yeah! What problems could arise from pissing off Muslims? "

That's not a good way of doing things. 'Let's not do something, because the Muslims will then strap bombs', in the general sense.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Most other philosiphies don't want to subject us to things like sharia law.

Yes they do, all of them. The ideal world for any philosophy is the destruction of all forms of thought that disagree (which is generally most of them).

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
we should set up our societies based on what muslims want?

Of course not, but there's no reason to be hostile towards people that aren't "the enemy" which plenty of Muslims aren't. Not doing things that are blatant attacks on Muslims isn't kowtowing to them it's common sense. Going out of your way to produce more enemies is silly and counter productive.

Now if Muslims, or anyone else for that matter, want to do something that is hostile and then hide behind the shield of religion they deserve to get shot down.

Outlawing Islam in the West will have exactly one effect. Muslims will pour into the Middle East and join terrorist organizations, there won't be any other options left for them.

Or we could follow this line of thinking and outlaw science classes because the might remind some people of the atomic bomb. We could outlaw churches because the cross might remind people of the Inquisition. We could outlaw Chili's restaurants because there was a guy who got heartburn there once and he's scared of them now.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's not a good way of doing things. 'Let's not do something, because the Muslims will then strap bombs', in the general sense.

That's not my argument.

Why could you possibly support a law that will make Muslims angry and have absolutely no other effects? It's that sort of blithering idiocy that kills nations from the inside out.

If you want to institutionalize religious persecution at least come up with something better than "there are some of them that I really hate".

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The ideal world for any philosophy is the destruction of all forms of thought that disagree (which is generally most of them).



]


Except that for the most part Muslims tend to be far more violent towards anything that they perceive to be offensive to their religion. You didn't see Christians rioting worldwide when Passion of the Christ was released.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Except that for the most part Muslims tend to be far more violent towards anything that they perceive to be offensive to their religion. You didn't see Christians rioting worldwide when Passion of the Christ was released.

Sure. Fortunately rioting and destroying things is already covered by the law of most countries.

Nice work ignoring 3/4 of my post by the way.

Originally posted by One Free Man
Islam is not a race it is a religion. If you want to call that racist, maybe you should call it racist whenever a christian or a jew is portrayed as a bad guy.

when they start throwing out people just because they are middle eastern, i will concede that that's racist. Muslims are just people who follow the islam philosophy. Jews are just people who follow the jewish philosophy. A race is something you're born with, a religion is something you chose. you are a very ignorant person, aren't you?
It's not white swiss who are going to have their freedom restricted under this law. It's mostly immigrants from arab nations. If it was white natives who were the driving force behind the islamic community in switzerland, the government would never try a move like this.

Secondly, you are born into being a jew. Jews are mostly a race. I know plenty of jewish atheists, but as long as you're mother was a jew you are considered jewish in that religion regardless of belief.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Secondly, you are born into being a jew. Jews are mostly a race. I know plenty of jewish atheists, but as long as you're mother was a jew you are considered jewish in that religion regardless of belief. Only by ignorant people. the correct nomenclature is "hebrew". and if you are a white jew you bet your ass nobody calls you jewish even if your mother was jewish. Judaism is not mostly a race, it is a religion. period.

I enjoy recognizing ignorance in people so quick to recognize "racism" when addressing "racism" that they obviously take part in.

Originally posted by One Free Man
if you are a white jew you bet your ass nobody calls you jewish even if your mother was jewish. Judaism is not mostly a race, it is a religion. period.

You may wish to read that back to yourself.

Originally posted by One Free Man
Only by ignorant people. the correct nomenclature is "hebrew". and if you are a white jew you bet your ass nobody calls you jewish even if your mother was jewish. Judaism is not mostly a race, it is a religion. period.

I enjoy recognizing ignorance in people so quick to recognize "racism" when addressing "racism" that they obviously take part in.
Wow, what an *******. FYI, I AM Jewish, and every orthodox or hasidic jew i've ever met has fed me the same "belief is irrelevant to being jewish" line. It is right in the ****ing Torah, so yeah if you are "jewish" enough to recognize the commandments then you are going to accept people who's mothers were jewish as being jews.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Wow, what an *******. FYI, I AM Jewish, and every orthodox or hasidic jew i've ever met has fed me the same "belief is irrelevant to being jewish" line. It is right in the ****ing Torah, so yeah if you are "jewish" enough to recognize the commandments then you are going to accept people who's mothers were jewish as being jews. nice job on misreading the post.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You're right. "Mutalip Karaademi" is OBVIOUSLY a traditional swiss name common among the white general public of switzerland. http://atlas.mapzones.com/albania/albania.jpg he's albanian, dumbass.

Originally posted by One Free Man
and if you are a white jew you bet your ass nobody calls you jewish even if your mother was jewish.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Wow, what an *******. FYI, I AM Jewish, and every orthodox or hasidic jew i've ever met has fed me the same "belief is irrelevant to being jewish" line. It is right in the ****ing Torah, so yeah if you are "jewish" enough to recognize the commandments then you are going to accept people who's mothers were jewish as being jews. so say im white with blond hair and my mom is jewish. you don't know this, and you meet me on the street. Do you know I am jewish?

Originally posted by One Free Man
http://atlas.mapzones.com/albania/albania.jpg he's albanian, dumbass.
Ethnic albanians do not look the same as swiss at all.

Originally posted by One Free Man
so say im white with blond hair and my mom is jewish. you don't know this, and you meet me on the street. Do you know I am jewish?
Most jews I know have at least some identifying trait.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Ethnic albanians do not look the same as swiss at all. you said the ones pushing islam in Switzerland were immigrants from arab nations. Albania=/=an arab nation. you lose.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Most jews I know have at least some identifying trait. most christians I know have at least some identifying trait. this says nothing.

Alright, alright.



I'll clear this up.


"Jew" applies to not only the religion, but it also applies to ethnicity.

You are a Jew if you meet the following requirements:

Are part of the Jewish faith.

Your mother was a Jew.

You are a citizen of Israel.

Originally posted by One Free Man
you said the ones pushing islam in Switzerland were immigrants from arab nations. Albania=/=an arab nation. you lose.
And yet my key point, that this is not something the government would do if the muslims were ethnically swiss, still stands.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Alright, alright.



I'll clear this up.


"Jew" applies to not only the religion, but it also applies to ethnicity.

You are a Jew if you meet the following requirements:

Are part of the Jewish faith.

Your mother was a Jew.

You are a citizen of Israel. How about I clear this up because you are wrong!:
Alright, alright.



I'll clear this up.


"Jew" applies to the religion, but hebrew applies to ethnicity.

You are a Jew if you meet the following requirements:

Are part of the Jewish faith.

You are Hebrew if:

Your mother was a hebrew.

You are a citizen of Israel.

considering the fact that muslims can be legal citizens of israel along with christians and atheists, i don't see how they could be called jews.

Originally posted by King Kandy
And yet my key point, that this is not something the government would do if the muslims were ethnically swiss, still stands. No, it doesn't, because, by showing that the chief of the Muslims is a European white, it is no longer racism, as "swiss" is not a race but a country. you lose.

Originally posted by One Free Man
most christians I know have at least some identifying trait. this says nothing.
The logic you used in that "hypothetical", I could use to "prove" that there's no such thing as being of east-african ethinicity.

"so say im white with blond hair and my parents are east-african. you don't know this, and you meet me on the street. Do you know I am east-african?"

Well know, I wouldn't know that you were east-african, because it would have to be a very strange turn of events for there to be a significant number of east-africans who meet that description.

Originally posted by One Free Man
How about I clear this up because you are wrong!:
Alright, alright.



I'll clear this up.


"Jew" applies to the religion, but hebrew applies to ethnicity.

You are a Jew if you meet the following requirements:

Are part of the Jewish faith.

You are Hebrew if:

Your mother was a hebrew.

You are a citizen of Israel.

considering the fact that muslims can be legal citizens of israel along with christians and atheists, i don't see how they could be called jews.

Cite your source, all Jews I know and most sites I have looked at disagree with you (except on the Israel one).

Originally posted by One Free Man
No, it doesn't, because, by showing that the chief of the Muslims is a European white, it is no longer racism, as "swiss" is not a race but a country. you lose.
Albanians are not the same ethnicity as swiss natives and look markably different.

Originally posted by One Free Man
How about I clear this up because you are wrong!:
Alright, alright.



I'll clear this up.


"Jew" applies to the religion, but hebrew applies to ethnicity.

You are a Jew if you meet the following requirements:

Are part of the Jewish faith.

You are Hebrew if:

Your mother was a hebrew.

You are a citizen of Israel.

considering the fact that muslims can be legal citizens of israel along with christians and atheists, i don't see how they could be called jews.

No. What I said.


http://www.jhm.nl/exhibitions.aspx?ID=110


Here, read this and educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_identity


When you're done reading that, follow the links and read those pages too. If you're still not satisfied, type in "who is jewish" into the google search and read the top 20 hits for that search.


Then, when you're done, come back here and tell KK and I that we were right.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The logic you used in that "hypothetical", I could use to "prove" that there's no such thing as being of east-african ethinicity.

"so say im white with blond hair and my parents are east-african. you don't know this, and you meet me on the street. Do you know I am east-african?"

Well know, I wouldn't know that you were east-african, because it would have to be a very strange turn of events for there to be a significant number of east-africans who meet that description. so you mis-spelled "now", so wow.

This is also a strawman. and a misrepresentation. East Africans have defining traits. Jews, for the most part, do not have black curly hair and big noses and freckles. Those are hebrews. yes i would recognise a hebrew on the street, and so would you.

Would you recognize a white anglo saxon gone jew, though? no. thus judaism is not a race but a religion.

albanians (just a pic off of google images)
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/03/04/world/04kosovo.600.jpg

swiss:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/10/22/jobbik_wideweb__470x358,0.jpg

look similar enough to me!

Originally posted by One Free Man
so you mis-spelled "now", so wow.

This is also a strawman. and a misrepresentation. East Africans have defining traits. Jews, for the most part, do not have black curly hair and big noses and freckles. Those are hebrews. yes i would recognise a hebrew on the street, and so would you.

Would you recognize a white anglo saxon gone jew, though? no. thus judaism is not a race but a religion.

No two people have ever agreed on a common definition of "race". Also the fact that there is a secular Jewish culture destroys the idea that Judaism is only as religion.

Originally posted by One Free Man
so you mis-spelled "now", so wow.

This is also a strawman. and a misrepresentation. East Africans have defining traits. Jews, for the most part, do not have black curly hair and big noses and freckles. Those are hebrews. yes i would recognise a hebrew on the street, and so would you.

Would you recognize a white anglo saxon gone jew, though? no. thus judaism is not a race but a religion.


The term you're looking for is "ethnic Jew", not "jew."

King & OFM: I think a major issue for you guys would be in how race is defined. There is really no objective measure in existence.

As far as "identifiable physical characteristics", OFM is correct. Racial categories defined in this way are so detectable that people can identify them 90% of the time from a featureless silhouette. Jewish anscestory is indistinguishable from the larger category of "Mediterranean" in this regard. However, there are obvious problems with this method, as there are no clear lines where one race ends and another begins, making many individuals fall between these clear distinctive groups.

The other issue is that of shared heritage and of personal identification, where Jews do have a tendency to behave as a racial group (obvious exceptions of course, but "jewishness" is something that many individuals brought up in the faith will hold onto even after they have abandoned any theological connection to the term). This has the obvious problem of not being empirical, and gets into the odd place where someone who "feels" black might actually be physically white, and vice versa.

Beyond that, why does it matter. It isn't cool to oppress people based on distinguishable physical characteristics, and it isn't cool to oppress people based on their personal choices of identification. **** semantics, if you don't like jews or muslims, or don't think they deserve the same rights as everyone else, you are a bigot, regardless of whether you meet the textbook definition of "racist"

Originally posted by inimalist
The other issue is that of shared heritage and of personal identification, where Jews do have a tendency to behave as a racial group (obvious exceptions of course, but "jewishness" is something that many individuals brought up in the faith will hold onto even after they have abandoned any theological connection to the term). This has the obvious problem of not being empirical, and gets into the odd place where someone who "feels" black might actually be physically white, and vice versa.

Sartre's view on this is interesting: "Judaism is neither national nor international, neither religious nor ethnic, nor political: it is a quasi-historical community."

i don't know why we are arguing on judaism anyway i thought the issue was islam in regards to race.

I thought the issue was the Swiss banning of Minarets, and people who are obviously making a stance which is bigoted toward the individual religious rights of Muslims trying to confuse the issue by arguing about what a race is.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sartre's view on this is interesting: "Judaism is neither national nor international, neither religious nor ethnic, nor political: it is a quasi-historical community."

I'd say that sums it up really well.

They have an very interesting community in that regard. There is probably some great psych lit on it, but I'm unawares

Originally posted by inimalist
Beyond that, why does it matter. It isn't cool to oppress people based on distinguishable physical characteristics, and it isn't cool to oppress people based on their personal choices of identification. **** semantics, if you don't like jews or muslims, or don't think they deserve the same rights as everyone else, you are a bigot, regardless of whether you meet the textbook definition of "racist"


/thread.

.

I love how the topic shifted from the minarets in Switzerland to the Jews..

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
I love how the topic shifted from the minarets in Switzerland to the Jews..

Ethnic self-identity is something that resulted from other people's perceptions. It's one of those plymouth rock landed on us kind of things.

Anyway, it's a ridiculous concept. Fighting a foreign culture through architecture. The only time you should ban something like that is when it's an eyesore that no one want to look at.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
The only time you should ban something like that is when it's an eyesore that no one want to look at.

I have the right to build an eyesore if I wish

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Ethnic self-identity is something that resulted from other people's perceptions. It's one of those plymouth rock landed on us kind of things.

Anyway, it's a ridiculous concept. Fighting a foreign culture through architecture. The only time you should ban something like that is when it's an eyesore that no one want to look at.

I was actually thinking of suburban tract housing when I wrote that.

ba dum bum, tssss

Originally posted by inimalist
I have the right to build an eyesore if I wish

And I have the right to fill the basement with dynamite.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Albanians are not the same ethnicity as swiss natives and look markably different.

Precisely.
Albania is the majority Islam country, if there is any ''islam pushing'' into Switzerland, Albanians win this one. There is a massive Albanian immigration to Suisse.

Not to mention the notorious Albanian mafia which traffics heroin, human organs and sex slaves via Albania and now Kosovo.

They be pushing more than Islam into Switzerland...

Hence ethnic warfare through zoning regulations.