The Original Hellfire Club vs X-Men

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Starscream M
Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, Donald Pierce, Harry Leland, and Jason Wyngarde

vs

Cyclops, Jean Grey (No Phoenix), Wolverine, Colossus and Shadowcat

TheKahn
I'd go with the X-men assuming they know enough to take out Frost and Wyngarde in the first few moments of the fight.

Battlehammer
are the hell fire classic powers or current?

Starscream M
Originally posted by Battlehammer
are the hell fire classic powers or current? I'm not familiar with how they changed.

let's go with current powers

Battlehammer
Hell fire club. Pierce takes out 3 of the x-men within seconds and then puts wolverien pretty much out of commision leaving colossus as the only one standing

redhotrash
So this is Emma before she was written to have omega level telepathy overnight?

Wei Phoenix
Current powers. The Hellfire Club takes this with ease.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Hell fire club. Pierce takes out 3 of the x-men within seconds and then puts wolverien pretty much out of commision leaving colossus as the only one standing

How so?

Kris Blaze
My heart says X-men, but my gut says Hellfire Club.

I'll go with whatever Bran or Paul says.

Or the opposite of Bats and Phil

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Hell fire club. Pierce takes out 3 of the x-men within seconds and then puts wolverien pretty much out of commision leaving colossus as the only one standing
What?

I don't remember Pierce being quite so powerful...

TheKahn
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
What?

I don't remember Pierce being quite so powerful...

yeah...didn't he recently get beaten and captured by the Young X-Men?

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
What?

I don't remember Pierce being quite so powerful...

He was pretty strong in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Originally posted by TheKahn
yeah...didn't he recently get beaten and captured by the Young X-Men?

I'm trying to remember, Dust peeled off his skin, he killed Wolf Cub. Was that Tattoo guy involved in his capture cause he had deux ex machina powers and I'm too lazy to go and check.

Also didn't we find out that Bastion is using him as surveillance well?

Mshinu
Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm not familiar with how they changed.

let's go with current powers

Jason is still dead isn`t he? Does that mean we use his daughters instead?

Battlehammer
Originally posted by TheKahn
How so?
Uncanny x-men he posses nannities that he can firer out which are able to go pritty much everyone on the team rather quickly only wolverine and colossus would be ok, but whats worse is that he then has nannites designed to take wolverine out. That leave colossus by him self.

Kris Blaze
No matter how the fight goes, Wolverine goes down first.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
No matter how the fight goes, Wolverine goes down first.
Some one clearly still mad at me aww.


Sorry but nope, Normal nannites wont take him out, but they would take out everyone besides colossus.

Survivor19
Forget Pierce, Shadowcat has his number.

But anyway: HF club has all the psychic advantage they need to pick X-Men 1 by 1. And they can do that.

So, HF for majority.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Survivor19
Forget Pierce, Shadowcat has his number.

But anyway: HF club has all the psychic advantage they need to pick X-Men 1 by 1. And they can do that.

So, HF for majority.
did you forget the part were I said he has nannites that will take them all down..........kitty would litterrally have to maintain being intangiable to entire time.

redhotrash
Kitty disrupts and destroys machinery when shes intangible. Pierce was rended into pieces by Shaw, so hes not above physical attacks.

BruceSkywalker
hasn't the x-men beaten the hellfire club so many times

Battlehammer
Originally posted by redhotrash
Kitty disrupts and destroys machinery when shes intangible. Pierce was rended into pieces by Shaw, so hes not above physical attacks.
That does not mean he be put down, you think he never thought of how to deal with that? I mean he found away around Shaw powers. Yea Shaw did knock off his head, but there no telling how storng he was during that encounter. But he must have been pritty storng seeing as how old models of pierce have taken it to colossus. Also lets assume kitty does take down pierce? She still screwed as soon as she unphased the nannites would take her out. Cyclopes. jean ect. all be down leaving what kitty left and colossus.

redhotrash
Funny that you assume he has a way to counter them based on nothing at all. Also, if these nanites worked so quickly and were so effective, Shaw wouldnt have taken him apart the way he did. I think you are taking 1 or 2 showings and using them as gospel, as I rarely remember him using them.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by redhotrash
Funny that you assume he has a way to counter them based on nothing at all.
Actaully am basing this off the fact he taken damage like eletrical assaults which would disrupt his technology but got up right off the bat. He seems to have provided protection to him self from thoses type of attacks, which is no surprize he protect himself from obvious weaknesses.




Originally posted by redhotrash
if these nanites worked so quickly and were so effective Shaw wouldnt have taken him apart the way he did. I think you are taking 1 or 2 showings and using them as gospel, as I rarely remember him using them.
Hypcorit much? Your using one event of shaw hitting off pierce head as evidence that shadow cat can take him out.

The reason he never used the nannites on shaw is becuase he already had shaw captured. The issue you are refferring to is the same arc in which pierce took out number of x-men using his nannite technology. He even had nannites pesifically designed to take out wolverine. Seems silly to assume he would not uses such abilities to his advantage no?

Eternal Idol
Shadowcat takes out Shaw via phasing into the ground or a wall. Colossus takes out Pierce via brawl. Marvel Girl takes out the White Queen via mindblast. Cyclops GOML's Leland. Wolverine deals with Wyngarde's illusions until he gets a kill shot or help from the others.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Shadowcat takes out Shaw via phasing into the ground or a wall. Colossus takes out Pierce via brawl. Marvel Girl takes out the White Queen via mindblast. Cyclops GOML's Leland. Wolverine deals with Wyngarde's illusions until he gets a kill shot or help from the others.
yet cyclopes, shadow cat and cyclopes would be dropp right away from nannites. Wolverine soon after then it colossus who gets mind raped.

Leland just makes him weight absured amount and side him into earth core.

Survivor19
I've had enough of that almighty nannites bullsh%t, Battlehammer.
We are using TO-infected Pierce that is in X-Brig now, with power level shown in Young X-Men.
No nannites.

HF still wins the majority, though...

P.S. Funny thing is, Archangel in berserker rage can possibly solo HF in significant amount of scenaries IMO. Go figure )))

TheKahn
Unless the nanites work instantaneously or the HC is allowed to seed with combat zone with them before hand, I'm still going with the X-men for the win. Imo, Cyclops takes down every but Shaw and maybe pierce within the first few seconds of the fight...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast3.jpg

What's really nice is that current Cyclops doesn't have an compunction about killing the enemies of the X-men. smile

ps I assume Emma will stay human in order to counter Jean's tp, but if not Colossus or Kitty are more than a match for her in diamond form.

redhotrash
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Actaully am basing this off the fact he taken damage like eletrical assaults which would disrupt his technology but got up right off the bat. He seems to have provided protection to him self from thoses type of attacks, which is no surprize he protect himself from obvious weaknesses.





Hypcorit much? Your using one event of shaw hitting off pierce head as evidence that shadow cat can take him out.

The reason he never used the nannites on shaw is becuase he already had shaw captured. The issue you are refferring to is the same arc in which pierce took out number of x-men using his nannite technology. He even had nannites pesifically designed to take out wolverine. Seems silly to assume he would not uses such abilities to his advantage no?

Shadow Cat's phasing isnt electrically based. I dont believe its ever really been explained how she does it. And did my eyes decieve me, or did BH call someone else a hypocrite? If we are allowed to use abilities that have been shown like once, then I declare that from now on Namor is allowed to shoot electric blasts from his hands and control water with some weird form of TK

snoopdogg
Isn't some of those Hellfire Club guys dead currently? They won't be much help as corpses will they?

TheKahn
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Isn't some of those Hellfire Club guys dead currently? They won't be much help as corpses will they?

no expression
I'm assuming they get to come back to life for this fight.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Battlehammer
yet cyclopes, shadow cat and cyclopes would be dropp right away from nannites. Wolverine soon after then it colossus who gets mind raped.

Leland just makes him weight absured amount and side him into earth core.
Okay then...

Same strategy, except that this time, Cyclops GOML's Pierce and his nanites, while Colossus shatters Leland's glass jaw.

Leland's abilities don't have that kind of range or power.

snoopdogg
Colossus already overpowered Leilands abilties iirc.

KingD19
Wolverine has too if I recall.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by KingD19
Wolverine has too if I recall.
Technically, yes. He didn't succumb to the gravity, but he was BFR'd in the process.

KingD19
Didn't it knock him down a couple levels into the sewer??

Eternal Idol
Yeah. He was still conscious too.

ExodusCloak
Jason Wyngarde was not a push over together himself and Emma Frost would overwhelm the other team.

TheKahn
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Jason Wyngarde was not a push over together himself and Emma Frost would overwhelm the other team.

confused
How exactly? I think Jean can hold her on against Emma and Cyclops has the most damaging attack that could be unleashed in the first moments of the fight.

redhotrash
When Wolverine was knocked into the sewers, didnt he go one to completely destroy like dozens of the Hellfire Club's lackies in one of his cooler moments? And I agree, old school Emma before they made her omega level overnight wasnt nearly as impressive.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by redhotrash
When Wolverine was knocked into the sewers, didnt he go one to completely destroy like dozens of the Hellfire Club's lackies in one of his cooler moments? And I agree, old school Emma before they made her omega level overnight wasnt nearly as impressive.
That was back in the day when Wolverine had respect.

But he still has no real chance against leland.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Survivor19
I've had enough of that almighty nannites bullsh%t, Battlehammer.
We are using TO-infected Pierce that is in X-Brig now, with power level shown in Young X-Men.
No nannites.

HF still wins the majority, though...

P.S. Funny thing is, Archangel in berserker rage can possibly solo HF in significant amount of scenaries IMO. Go figure )))
You mean that god awful issue he was in young x-men? ugg that was terriable.

Dont get mad that ability he shown, and it within his powers.




No he cant archangle stands zero stance of soloing, unless your delusional. God archangle one of the most overrated guys. here a several HF guys who would utterly destroy him in a fight. also it not a berserker rage. It just a rage.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by redhotrash
Shadow Cat's phasing isnt electrically based. I dont believe its ever really been explained how she does it. And did my eyes decieve me, or did BH call someone else a hypocrite? If we are allowed to use abilities that have been shown like once, then I declare that from now on Namor is allowed to shoot electric blasts from his hands and control water with some weird form of TK
Actaully it is form of eletrical disturbance, same way vision power works.


The difference with Namor and pierce, is pierce power set changes everytime he apeares on pannel, becuase he constantly upgrading his abilities. Namors doesent. So him displaying a single power one or even twice is not the same thing as pierce. Not to mention pierce has about a handful of showings lol

Yes you are a hypocrit. Your yelling at me for using a one tiem example which it wasent, it was in several issues while you on the other hand uses one example of Shaw hitting off pierces head as evidence for kitty powers working against him.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
confused
How exactly? I think Jean can hold her on against Emma and Cyclops has the most damaging attack that could be unleashed in the first moments of the fight.

Jean will be too busy with Emma, Mastermind takes out the others with ease.

Battlehammer
If the nannites arnt allowed in this thread, I dont care either way.

As for khan question they worked instantly.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Jean will be too busy with Emma, Mastermind takes out the others with ease.
also woudlent scot blast jsut super charge shaw into unstopable monster.

also depending on what version of pierce we uses, he can fly and shot range attacks.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
also woudlent scot blast jsut super charge shaw into unstopable monster.

also depending on what version of pierce we uses, he can fly and shot range attacks.

not if he did it right, which he has done before.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by Battlehammer
also woudlent scot blast jsut super charge shaw into unstopable monster.

I think so. That's what happened in the DPS isn't it?

Originally posted by -Pr-
not if he did it right, which he has done before.

When was this? You mean the floor?

TheKahn
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Jean will be too busy with Emma, Mastermind takes out the others with ease.

Jean > Emma (both in TP and thanks to Jean's TK) and I'm still not sure how Mastermind and some of the others can survive an initial room clearing blast by Scott.

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
not if he did it right, which he has done before.

Even if Scott did supercharge Shaw while clearing out some of the less durable HC, there is still Shadow Cat and Jean to put him down.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
Jean > Emma (both in TP and thanks to Jean's TK) and I'm still not sure how Mastermind and some of the others can survive an initial room clearing blast by Scott.

Not sans Phoenix Jean. And if Exodus who has knocked Jean sans Phoenix telepathically on her ass twice was unable to deploy his telekinesis against Emma then what makes you think Jean will be able to? It'll end up being an astral fighta and Jean will be too preocuppied with Emma to protect her teammates from Jason.

Masterminds powers work at the speed of thought as well.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
not if he did it right, which he has done before.
There no way to do it right, it kentic energy. Unless you can prove other wises.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I think so. That's what happened in the DPS isn't it?




I not sure to be honest, I havent read it in a while I need to re read it.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by TheKahn
Even if Scott did supercharge Shaw while clearing out some of the less durable HC, there is still Shadow Cat and Jean to put him down.
when was the last time scot right of the bat took of his visor? when was the last time he actaully took off his visor? what happens when he goes to take it off and emma make him turn toward his teamates killing them all instead?

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I not sure to be honest, I havent read it in a while I need to re read it.

I read it a month ago, I'm pretty sure it happened.

Eternal Idol
Cyclops GOML's the entire Hellfire Club, supercharging Shaw but KO's/kills everyone else. Jean mindrapes Shaw.

redhotrash
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Actaully it is form of eletrical disturbance, same way vision power works.


The difference with Namor and pierce, is pierce power set changes everytime he apeares on pannel, becuase he constantly upgrading his abilities. Namors doesent. So him displaying a single power one or even twice is not the same thing as pierce. Not to mention pierce has about a handful of showings lol

Yes you are a hypocrit. Your yelling at me for using a one tiem example which it wasent, it was in several issues while you on the other hand uses one example of Shaw hitting off pierces head as evidence for kitty powers working against him.

My bad for not putting it more simply, I sometime forget who Im talking to. Show me something that says her phase ability works like Vision's. Thats just your own speculation. And I thought it was pretty clear I mentioned the Shaw situation as a means to show that he is far from indestructable.

-Pr-
Originally posted by TheKahn
Even if Scott did supercharge Shaw while clearing out some of the less durable HC, there is still Shadow Cat and Jean to put him down.

true.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I think so. That's what happened in the DPS isn't it?



When was this? You mean the floor?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
There no way to do it right, it kentic energy. Unless you can prove other wises.

Here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/Cyclops/uxm152_Page17.jpg

i see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Cyclops GOML's the entire Hellfire Club, supercharging Shaw but KO's/kills everyone else. Jean mindrapes Shaw.
When was the last time he done that? how many times has he done it? that one time pritty much? isent CIS still on? Then whats to stop emma from taking over his mind and turning him on his team? Jean can't mind rape Shaw, if not mistaken Prof X is unable to do so. Shaw has one of the msot protected minds on the planet.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-
true.





Here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/Cyclops/uxm152_Page17.jpg

i see no reason why it wouldn't work.

You're going to knock him over and make him stronger? confused There's no lake to knock him into here he burnt most of his energy swimming back and Emma/Storm hit him with a lightning bolt which overloaded him IRRC.

-Pr-
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You're going to knock him over and make him stronger? confused There's no lake to knock him into here he burnt most of his energy swimming back and Emma/Storm hit him with a lightning bolt which overloaded him IRRC.

it's a small blast, so any amp is negligible, and the OP said nothing about no BFR.stick out tongue

Battlehammer
Originally posted by redhotrash
My bad for not putting it more simply, I sometime forget who Im talking to. Show me something that says her phase ability works like Vision's. Thats just your own speculation. And I thought it was pretty clear I mentioned the Shaw situation as a means to show that he is far from indestructable.
Show some were, were it stated as different can you?



Yea and so shaw one time showing now holds precedences over the times colossus has fail to do the same? also I never said he was industructable.



also what pierce are we using I mean there are so many versions.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-
it's a small blast, so any amp is negligible, and the OP said nothing about no BFR.stick out tongue

Ah right, I don't know I kind of always assumed the field was blank.

-Pr-
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Ah right, I don't know I kind of always assumed the field was blank.

and it probably is, but any throw colossus uses is going to have decent distance, so shaw would be out of the fight for a bit, no?

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
true.





Here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/Cyclops/uxm152_Page17.jpg

i see no reason why it wouldn't work.
thats a plot device which he does not have here and still did not prevent shaw from absorbing the energy.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
and it probably is, but any throw colossus uses is going to have decent distance, so shaw would be out of the fight for a bit, no?
this could be true, but shaw could do that same no?

also it should be remeber that shaw speed increased as well with the mroe damage he recieves.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
thats a plot device which he does not have here and still did not prevent shaw from absorbing the energy.

i didn't say it would prevent him from absorbing it. he's not supercharging him, though.

and i dont see it as a plot device, tbh.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
this could be true, but shaw could do that same no?

also it should be remeber that shaw speed increased as well with the mroe damage he recieves.

he's going to knock colossus off balance with an optic blast and then toss him a few miles in to the air? stick out tongue

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Battlehammer
When was the last time he done that? how many times has he done it? that one time pritty much? isent CIS still on?

CIS is still on, but since this is a forum discussion and it's a viable tactic (especially now that Cyclops dropped his qualms about killing), it's solid.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Then whats to stop emma from taking over his mind and turning him on his team?

Jean Grey.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Jean can't mind rape Shaw, if not mistaken Prof X is unable to do so. Shaw has one of the msot protected minds on the planet.
In that case, Shadowcat phases him into a wall or the earth.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-
and it probably is, but any throw colossus uses is going to have decent distance, so shaw would be out of the fight for a bit, no?

Well think about it, if we ignore the telepaths for a moment because there's no way in hell Jean Grey sans Phoenix is taking on Emma Frost and Jason Wyngarde.

Scott can clear the field with a GOML blast right, but to do so he'll have to get rid of Shaw first otherwise he'll just amp Sebastian tremendously. So if he knocks Shaw over isn't that giving Leland enough time to cause the entire X-Men team to fall over?

TheKahn
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not sans Phoenix Jean. And if Exodus who has knocked Jean sans Phoenix telepathically on her ass twice was unable to deploy his telekinesis against Emma then what makes you think Jean will be able to? It'll end up being an astral fighta and Jean will be too preocuppied with Emma to protect her teammates from Jason.

Masterminds powers work at the speed of thought as well.

1. So we're only using low feats for certain characters now? Jean is good enough to at least occupy Emma while one of the other X-men take her out.

2. Mastermind's and Scott's powers would have about the same deploying time (just like everyone else in this fight). The difference is that Scott's is destructive in nature while Mastermind's is not. Also, the X-men know what to expect from Mastermind and I doubt any illusion would take them by surprise to keep Scott from attacking the place where the HC is standing the moment the fight starts.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
i didn't say it would prevent him from absorbing it. he's not supercharging him, though.

and i dont see it as a plot device, tbh.



he's going to knock colossus off balance with an optic blast and then toss him a few miles in to the air? stick out tongue
true, but I was refferring to visore off lol


well yea the water being there would be a plot device........



Naw I ment shaw jsut throws colossus lol.

also what happens if emma controlled scot mind?

-Pr-
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well think about it, if we ignore the telepaths for a moment because there's no way in hell Jean Grey sans Phoenix is taking on Emma Frost and Jason Wyngarde.

Scott can clear the field with a GOML blast right, but to do so he'll have to get rid of Shaw first otherwise he'll just amp Sebastian tremendously. So if he knocks Shaw over isn't that giving Leland enough time to cause the entire X-Men team to fall over?

he could. i was just responding to the cyclops "cant blast without supercharging" thing.

i think both teams have it in them to win, which is why i havent decided who i think would be ultimately victorious.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well think about it, if we ignore the telepaths for a moment because there's no way in hell Jean Grey sans Phoenix is taking on Emma Frost and Jason Wyngarde.
Isn't Jean sans mental blocks supposed to be up there with Xavier or above in regard to psychic ability?
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Scott can clear the field with a GOML blast right, but to do so he'll have to get rid of Shaw first otherwise he'll just amp Sebastian tremendously. So if he knocks Shaw over isn't that giving Leland enough time to cause the entire X-Men team to fall over?
The X-Men would have a much easier time dealing with an amped Shaw than the entire Hellfire Club working together.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
CIS is still on, but since this is a forum discussion and it's a viable tactic (especially now that Cyclops dropped his qualms about killing), it's solid.



Jean Grey.


In that case, Shadowcat phases him into a wall or the earth.
CIS still prevents, it jsut becuase scots more willing to kill does not mean he take off his visor. when has scot killed? he really just has little problem with others killing, he done none of it him self really. I think it a stretch to assume he take off his visor


She stornger then jean and better now


hasent kitty shown to have problems with eletrical attacks while phased? could pierce simply KO her doing one? couldent emma simply shut off her brain?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
true, but I was refferring to visore off lol


well yea the water being there would be a plot device........



Naw I ment shaw jsut throws colossus lol.

also what happens if emma controlled scot mind?

what does his visor being on or off have to do with it?

emma could try that, but jean could easily block her too. and im more inclined to believe that scott has thought more about putting emma down than vice versa.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Battlehammer
when was the last time scot right of the bat took of his visor? when was the last time he actaully took off his visor? what happens when he goes to take it off and emma make him turn toward his teamates killing them all instead?

Scott usually doesn't go full blast because he isn't aiming to kill and a full blast might not accomplish what he wants done. However he does do it when necessary and is more blood thirsty than ever these days.

The most recent instance I can think of is in Astonishing X-Men
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast3.jpg


Also Emma isn't going to do much of anything as
1. Jean is more than capable of handling her
2. Her human durability (like Mastermind's) is major handicap in this fight.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
1. So we're only using low feats for certain characters now? Jean is good enough to at least occupy Emma while one of the other X-men take her out.

2. Mastermind's and Scott's powers would have about the same deploying time (just like everyone else in this fight). The difference is that Scott's is destructive in nature while Mastermind's is not. Also, the X-men know what to expect from Mastermind and I doubt any illusion would take them by surprise to keep Scott from attacking the place where the HC is standing the moment the fight starts.

Low feats? Which ones are you talking about?

It doesn't work you there are two psi's on one of the teams. Jean is not the one occupying Emma, Emma is the one occupying Jean. See what I did there? They basically take each other out of the equation. There's no way Jean is going to protect her teamates from Mastermind and fight Emma off at the same time she'll be too busy with Emma.

Mastermind is thought. Scott is thought + excution + visor flap motor. And yes Mastermind is that good.

-Pr-
Originally posted by TheKahn
Scott usually doesn't go full blast because he isn't aiming to kill and a full blast might not accomplish what he wants done. However he does do it when necessary and is more blood thirsty than ever these days.

The most recent instance I can think of is in Astonishing X-Men
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/howdysaysthedrow/X-Men/Blast3.jpg


Also Emma isn't going to do much of anything as
1. Jean is more than capable of handling her
2. Her human durability (like Mastermind's) is major handicap in this fight.

then there's the fact that for two or three solid issues, he was fighting visor-less and still managing to not kill people.

he can do wide blasts that aren't fatal, after all.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
then there's the fact that for two or three solid issues, he was fighting visor-less and still managing to not kill people.

he can do wide blasts that aren't fatal, after all.
when was this? was that during astonishign x-men was he revealed he ahd more controll of his power then he elt on? what eevr happen with that anyways

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Isn't Jean sans mental blocks supposed to be up there with Xavier or above in regard to psychic ability?

As is Emma and any other High Order Psi. They basically cancel each other out since the fight will be over in seconds with Mastermind there.
But you know Emma has better feats these days then Jean sans Phoenix.



I'll give you that.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Low feats? Which ones are you talking about?

It doesn't work you there are two psi's on one of the teams. Jean is not the one occupying Emma, Emma is the one occupying Jean. See what I did there? They basically take each other out of the equation. There's no way Jean is going to protect her teamates from Mastermind and fight Emma off at the same time she'll be too busy with Emma.

Mastermind is thought. Scott is thought + excution + visor flap motor. And yes Mastermind is that good.
Leland is also a wild card, he could potential take scot out.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
when was this? was that during astonishign x-men was he revealed he ahd more controll of his power then he elt on? what eevr happen with that anyways

yup, in astonishing. he ALWAYS has control over his blasts in terms of their width, power and intensity. the visor was so he could simply not blast all the time.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
yup, in astonishing. he ALWAYS has control over his blasts in terms of their width, power and intensity. the visor was so he could simply not blast all the time.
but with his visor off now, does he still have controll of it coming out? if so why does he ware the visor? Though I have to admitt it looks much cooler lol

I think I some how missed one of the issues.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Leland is also a wild card, he could potential take scot out.

Lelands powers also work psionically I know it might take a second or two to make a persons body heavy and all but I don't think his victim will be able to move if he's using his power against them. Colossus might give him a heartattack though.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
but with his visor off now, does he still have controll of it coming out? if so why does he ware the visor? Though I have to admitt it looks much cooler lol

I think I some how missed one of the issues.

no. he doesn't have control of the actual blasting anymore. the astonishing thing was temporary, iirc.

he can choose how powerful his blasts are, but he can't stop himself from blasting, which is why he has the visor.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-
no. he doesn't have control of the actual blasting anymore. the astonishing thing was temporary, iirc.

he can choose how powerful his blasts are, but he can't stop himself from blasting, which is why he has the visor.

Harry Leland would be a pain in the ass though and not in the sodomizing kind of way.

TheKahn
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Low feats? Which ones are you talking about?

It doesn't work you there are two psi's on one of the teams. Jean is not the one occupying Emma, Emma is the one occupying Jean. See what I did there? They basically take each other out of the equation. There's no way Jean is going to protect her teamates from Mastermind and fight Emma off at the same time she'll be too busy with Emma.

Mastermind is thought. Scott is thought + excution + visor flap motor. And yes Mastermind is that good.

Exodus has be consistently depowered since he debuted. Last I remember he was losing to Quicksilver. He's not really a good benchmark for comparing characters.

As for mastermind, what exactly is going to make Scott see that will convince him not to fire at where the HC are standing? Scott knows what Mastermind's abilities are and would certainly be prepared for just that sort of trick.

-Pr-
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Harry Leland would be a pain in the ass though and not in the sodomizing kind of way.

true. but i don't see why cyclops wouldn't just khtfo when the bell rang, or had someone else go after him. would his powers influence shadowcat, for instance? i honestly dont remember if they would.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
Exodus has be consistently depowered since he debuted. Last I remember he was losing to Quicksilver. He's not really a good benchmark for comparing characters.

He actually hasn't actually. Thena the Eternal was fighting Exodus telepathically while he was fighting a Isotope E'd up Quicksilver.



While Scott has plenty off baggage these days X-Force and his "gray" decisions etc..Nothing his powers was explained as a kind of psychic virus then anything else. Scotts will defeat himself his powers work well on strong minds which is pretty much most of the X-Men.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Lelands powers also work psionically I know it might take a second or two to make a persons body heavy and all but I don't think his victim will be able to move if he's using his power against them. Colossus might give him a heartattack though.
I thought when he came back though that he overcame the weakness after he original ressurection

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
no. he doesn't have control of the actual blasting anymore. the astonishing thing was temporary, iirc.

he can choose how powerful his blasts are, but he can't stop himself from blasting, which is why he has the visor.
Oh I see.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-
true. but i don't see why cyclops wouldn't just khtfo when the bell rang, or had someone else go after him. would his powers influence shadowcat, for instance? i honestly dont remember if they would.

The same could be said about Leland though. While Kitty has density (She spins her molecules) I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. But there's Mastermind so...that's it for her.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Oh I see.

yes, you do. uhuh

i do wish that whedon would explain that astonishing arc, though, as far as cyclops goes. he left it so damn vague.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The same could be said about Leland though. While Kitty has density (She spins her molecules) I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. But there's Mastermind so...that's it for her.

i have to say i'm with Kahn on this one. Scott has plenty of experience dealing with people like Mastermind, so i'm not sure it's so cut and dry...

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I thought when he came back though that he overcame the weakness after he original ressurection

I don't remember, wasn't he like a zombie when he came back the first time?

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
true. but i don't see why cyclops wouldn't just khtfo when the bell rang, or had someone else go after him. would his powers influence shadowcat, for instance? i honestly dont remember if they would.
I think they might take eachother out. The injuries scot would recieve would be devestating, even if he got Leland with him.


I was wondering if they work on kitty, I was wondering if they just make her floot into earth core.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I don't remember, wasn't he like a zombie when he came back the first time?
I aint sure either. I remeber him not having the same limitations. He jsut came back again.

TheKahn
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He actually hasn't actually. Thena the Eternal was fighting Exodus telepathically while he was fighting a Isotope E'd up Quicksilver.
If that's the case, the I was mistaken in diminishing Exodus. I'm still not clear on what you're basing your opinion that Emma is more powerful than Jean. Is it just that one instant you do you have other proof?


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

While Scott has plenty off baggage these days X-Force and his "gray" decisions etc..Nothing his powers was explained as a kind of psychic virus then anything else. Scotts will defeat himself his powers work well on strong minds which is pretty much most of the X-Men.
huh
I don't understand what you are trying to say

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
yes, you do. uhuh

i do wish that whedon would explain that astonishing arc, though, as far as cyclops goes. he left it so damn vague.


Why i think he overrated lol. He also tends to have people villains be whicked bad ass , team wreckers then all of sudden on x-men pwns them

TheKahn
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Why i think he overrated lol. He also tends to have people villains be whicked bad ass , team wreckers then all of sudden on x-men pwns them

Yeah, but I overall I enjoyed the run. smile
I love the way he writes Emma.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Why i think he overrated lol. He also tends to have people villains be whicked bad ass , team wreckers then all of sudden on x-men pwns them

i thought his arc was great in retrospect... i know you don't... stick out tongue

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
i thought his arc was great in retrospect... i know you don't... stick out tongue

I did not mind it. Like when they fell from space and when scot did he super blast and wolverine shackles came off, there been some cool scenes. I dont like his new arc though it confusing. I dont really get whats been going on.

I love for some one to explain it too me.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by TheKahn
Yeah, but I overall I enjoyed the run. smile
I love the way he writes Emma.
I dont like how he writes wolverine, he does not understand his personality, but he gotten better at it. I kinda think it would be better if he had NC on the team instead of Wolverine. Seems like he on it just to sell comics.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I did not mind it. Like when they fell from space and when scot did he super blast and wolverine shackles came off, there been some cool scenes. I dont like his new arc though it confusing. I dont really get whats been going on.

I love for some one to explain it too me.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I dont like how he writes wolverine, he does not understand his personality, but he gotten better at it. I kinda think it would be better if he had NC on the team instead of Wolverine. Seems like he on it just to sell comics.

i liked his logan, tbh...

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
If that's the case, the I was mistaken in diminishing Exodus. I'm still not clear on what you're basing your opinion that Emma is more powerful than Jean. Is it just that one instant you do you have proof?

More powerful? No as good if not slightly better based on feats alone yes. No not just that, Emma took out 7 Super Skrull Telepaths each with their own Cerebra and all of which were trained to take on the X-telepaths. She was completely detached from her body, she existed as an astral form (Like the Shadow King) so she basically did not have the aid of Cerebra.
She blocked Mr. Sinister's powers and Lady Mastermind from halfway across the world without Cererba while giving a perv a nosebleed. She Blocked Xavier who is more powerful then he's ever been in WWH.





Masterminds powers were explained in New Avengers:

1.) They're more like a psychic virus
2.) They effect strong minds very well.
3.) Scott has plenty of baggage these days.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I dont like how he writes wolverine, he does not understand his personality, but he gotten better at it. I kinda think it would be better if he had NC on the team instead of Wolverine. Seems like he on it just to sell comics.

Whatever do you mean???

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/AstonishingXMen16_Wolverine.jpg

http://www.insidesocal.com/modernmyth/Scared%20Wolverine.jpg

big grin

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
Whatever do you mean???

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/AstonishingXMen16_Wolverine.jpg

http://www.insidesocal.com/modernmyth/Scared%20Wolverine.jpg

big grin

Good art is so hard to find these days. You know I was looking at some of the pages of Greg Land in Endsong and they were that bad. But I can't handle him or Dodson anymore.

Astonishing X-Men is not the same anymore. Jiminez is the only saving grace.

TheKahn
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
More powerful? No as good if not slightly better based on feats alone yes. No not just that, Emma took out 7 Super Skrull Telepaths all with their own Cerebra's and all of which were trained to take on the X-telepaths. She was also detached from her body, she existed as an astral form (Like the Shadow King) so she basically did not have the aid of Cerebra. She blocked Mr. Sinister's powers and Lady Mastermind from halfway across the world without Cererba while giving a perv a nosebleed. She Blocked Xavier who is more powerful then he's ever been in WWH.
Those are impressive feats, but so are Jean's. Not to mention that Jean is supposedly an Omega-level psi with years of training under one of the most powerful telepaths on earth (Pro. X). That being said, any difference between the two is a minor point in my mind. Each can hold off the other for at least a few moments and that




Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Masterminds powers were explained in New Avengers:

1.) They're more like a psychic virus
2.) They effect strong minds very well.
3.) Scott has plenty of baggage these days.

Still don't see the point...if he tries to use his power he risks taking down his own team (or can he now focus it on specific individuals?).

-Pr-
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Good art is so hard to find these days. You know I was looking at some of the pages of Greg Land in Endsong and they were that bad. But I can't handle him or Dodson anymore.

i used to love dodson, when he did MK Spidey and Wonder Woman. His X-Men turns me off, though.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by TheKahn
Whatever do you mean???

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/AstonishingXMen16_Wolverine.jpg

http://www.insidesocal.com/modernmyth/Scared%20Wolverine.jpg

big grin
god I hate that scene. They compeltely ignore the fact through out the arc that wolverine has very strong mental defenses. I dont even have a problem with TP taking him out, but easily making him think he a child is rediculous.


That been only arc were his TP defences were completely ignored.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
god I hate that scene. They compeltely ignore the fact through out the arc that wolverine has very strong mental defenses. I dont even have a problem with TP taking him out, but easily making him think he a child is rediculous.


That been only arc were his TP defences were completely ignored.

disagree completely, but you knew that already... stick out tongue

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
Those are impressive feats, but so are Jean's. Not to mention that Jean is supposedly an Omega-level psi with years of training under one of the most powerful telepaths on earth (Pro. X). That being said, any difference between the two is a minor point in my mind. Each can hold off the other for at least a few moments and that

We're talking Jean sans Phoenix her which feats do you have in mind? Emma and Xaveir were called an Omega Class Psi as well but really the term doesn't mean much not on vs. boards anyway. She didn't have her telepathy for most of her life, Emma is far more conniving then Jean especially the way she messed with Xavier when he tried to probe Scott.

My point is more down to the fact that Emma can occupy Jean to the point where she won't be able to protect her teamates from Mastermind without the risk of being taken out by Emma. It's two psi talents against one here. Also remember that one second objective time is like minutes on the astral plane.




He's always been able to target individuals as far as I remember. But an example would be when he mind f*cked the Sentry without hurting the General.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
disagree completely, but you knew that already... stick out tongue
He shown more times to block mental attacks then let them in.

Never to extenet of ease that arc suggested. But what a surprize an author that has no idea how to write a character for gets his abilities.


Though when wolverine first came on the scene in early x-men issues he did not posses mental defences that was later added to his character after it development.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
He shown more times to block mental attacks then let them in.

Never to extenet of ease that arc suggested. But what a surprize an author that has no idea how to write a character for gets his abilities.


Though when wolverine first came on the scene in early x-men issues he did not posses mental defences that was later added to his character after it development.

not going to change my mind... stick out tongue

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-
i used to love dodson, when he did MK Spidey and Wonder Woman. His X-Men turns me off, though.

Emma and Scotts mindscape is the most boring thing I've ever seen. Morrison come back please.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Battlehammer


Though when wolverine first came on the scene in early x-men issues he did not posses mental defences that was later added to his character after it development.
since his developement however he consistently displayed strong resistences to TP. Proping deep into his mind, but specifically mind control.

-Pr-
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma and Scotts mindscape is the most boring thing I've ever seen. Morrison come back please.

yeah, it did suck, though i'd blame fraction for that more than dodson, tbh.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
not going to change my mind... stick out tongue
No matter how much evidence I showed you?


He also posses TP blocker now.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-
yeah, it did suck, though i'd blame fraction for that more than dodson, tbh.

I doubt carpenter Emma was Fractions idea. Problem is Fraction says he tailors his scripts depending on the artist and we know that Dodson is very good at drawing loads of women so it's also kind of his fault.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
No matter how much evidence I showed you?


He also posses TP blocker now.

you're not going to show me much evidence that i havent seen already.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I doubt carpenter Emma was Fractions idea. Problem is Fraction says he tailors his scripts depending on the artist and we know that Dodson is very good at drawing loads of women so it's also kind of his fault.

which?

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by -Pr-


which?

Did you not see that Diamond Carpenter Emma/Void in the background in UXM #518? She was building something.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
you're not going to show me much evidence that i havent seen already.



I beg to differ. But your stubborn no matter if I showed you 10 times the amount of evidence saying taht type TP would not work or be easy you still not except it lol.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I beg to differ. But your stubborn no matter if I showed you 10 times the amount of evidence saying taht type TP would not work or be easy you still not except it lol.

it's not stubbornness. i have read a lot of x-men. we both have. i simply don't see him as being as resilient as you do, based on what i've read. that's it, really...

TheKahn
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
We're talking Jean sans Phoenix her which feats do you have in mind? Emma and Xaveir were called an Omega Class Psi as well but really the term doesn't mean much not on vs. boards anyway. She didn't have her telepathy for most of her life, Emma is far more conniving then Jean especially the way she messed with Xavier when he tried to probe Scott.

My point is more down to the fact that Emma can occupy Jean to the point where she won't be able to protect her teamates from Mastermind without the risk of being taken out by Emma. It's two psi talents against one here. Also remember that one second objective time is like minutes on the astral plane.

Not sure with all the retcons if any of Jean's feats can be considered her own and not involving the Pheonix force to some degree (given that they're supposed to be fundamentally linked somehow), but off the top of my head...

Jean completely mindwiped Frenzy into becoming a full fledged X-Man
Telepathically turned off Candy Southern's nerve endings to reduce her pain
Sent a telepathic signal from the moon
Telepathically dumps the equivalent of the encyclopedia into Ciecielia Reyes mind within seconds
Mentally freezing Apocalypse in his tracks
Effecting Magneto through his helmet
Ripping Cassandra Nova out of Xavier's body
Read Weapon 13's mind which consisted of millions and millions of microscopic machine-minds
Telepathically shutting down the Hulk


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

He's always been able to target individuals as far as I remember. But an example would be when he mind f*cked the Sentry without hurting the General.

IIRC there was always some limitation on his power. Either he could only affect one person at a time, or he effected everyone within range. Does anybody know for sure or am I mistaken?

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
it's not stubbornness. i have read a lot of x-men. we both have. i simply don't see him as being as resilient as you do, based on what i've read. that's it, really...

Do you find him to be resilient at all.


also if there 10 times more evidence sayign he resilient then not does it seem to be logic to assume he not?

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheKahn
Not sure with all the retcons if any of Jean's feats can be considered her own and not involving the Pheonix force to some degree (given that they're supposed to be fundamentally linked somehow), but off the top of my head...

Well look at it this way, Jean UXM 1-66 nothing fundamentally impressive done as Marvel Girl. UXM 67-93 are reprints. 94-96 She quits and then rejoins and in the process becomes the Phoenix where her body is cacooned. So that's not Jean but the PF. So Phoenix Rising, DPS wasn't Jean. She was dead till the 250's I think, she returned in X-Factor and only had TK for up to issue 50 or something like that. The cast was changed like 15 issues later. Grant Morrisons New X-Men she began channelling the Phoenix Force spontaneously again and she's been dead for the last few years. Then like you said depending on how you look at it, cause the Phoenix did do something to her DNA during the Inferno but even if you count those you don't have that much to work with. Sure there's plenty of citations stating how powerful she is but Emma had that too in her White Queen days problem was she hardly appeared so she never had much to show for it till now.



That's not that impressive. When Emma was 16 she could do that, when she joined the Hellfire Club she numbed the nerve endings of Lourdes. She gave an entire crowd an telepathically induced orgasm. And Frenzy is back to being an Acolyte.



Wasn't Wolverine the only one who picked up on that signal? And wasn't he in Cable's Graymalkin Space Station when he received it?



Phoenix Force involved.



Depending on the version of the Hulk, you're talking a about the one she shut down as Marvel Girl right? Current Hulk is a whole different kettle of fish.




Was that not explained as Apocalypse lowering his defences to absorb Scott and then Jean working via their rapport?



It depends on the version of Magnetos helmet you're using. His helmet never blocked telepathy until the movie and Morrison got his hands on him.

Feats that I can think of are holding her own against Gamemaster one but in the end he tricked her and Joseph was involved. And in that issue he was described as not really being an omnipath.

Jeans telekinetic feats have always been far more impressive then her telepathic abilties but she won't have the use of her telekinesis in this fight. She's scanned the Andes without aid but Emma has 3 feats that have much better range then that. It could actually be 4 now that I think about it there's that Blinded by the Light arc.

See stalemating Exodus and niether one is able to deploy their extra powers in Exodus case his numerous extra powers:
http://img141.imageshack.us/i/scan12ff6.jpg/
http://img155.imageshack.us/i/scan05xz7.jpg

A list of that other stuff I mentioned should be in here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=439489&pagenumber=27



I don't believe there was, he has messed with the entire X-Men team as well as individual members eg Toad without effecting the other members of the brotherhood for fun. Claremont made him a lot lot stronger when he became a member of the Hellfire Club.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Do you find him to be resilient at all.


also if there 10 times more evidence sayign he resilient then not does it seem to be logic to assume he not?

i never claimed he wasn't resilient. i just see a difference between resilient and immune.

i think he's resilient, but not immune, and if the psi is skilled enough, i don't see why they can't end up making him braid their hair or something if they wanted to.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by -Pr-
i never claimed he wasn't resilient. i just see a difference between resilient and immune.

i think he's resilient, but not immune, and if the psi is skilled enough, i don't see why they can't end up making him braid their hair or something if they wanted to.
Oh I dont believe he immune just very resistent espcially to Telepathic mind control.



I find it hard to believe she be able to with such ease. Espicially since she ahd problems reaching him twice in new x-men.

Kris Blaze
Khanster, about this incident:
"Ripping Cassandra Nova out of Xavier's body"

It seems to me like there was a minimal amount of telepathy involved here, and more telekinesis. Xavier had already beaten Cassandra in his own mind and Jean used some sort of blend between the two to force it out. To me it seemed more like a mix of telepathy and telekinesis, then a pure feat.

I still consider jean to be a better telepathy than Slutty McSlut.

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