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Does anyone know what it would look like if you fired a charged particle beam (let's say protons going at 99% the speed of light) in a Earth-like atmoshpere or what would happen so something it hit?

Alternately who could I ask to find out?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Does anyone know what it would look like if you fired a charged particle beam (let's say protons going at 99% the speed of light) in a Earth-like atmoshpere or what would happen so something it hit?

Alternately who could I ask to find out?


They'd be in the various colors that we see from lightening (I assume...).

I think lightening is technically a particle beam.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos


who could I ask to find out?

Try a physicist.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Try a physicist.

The one physicist I know is bad at giving straight anwers.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The one physicist I know is bad at giving straight anwers.

Try another.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Does anyone know what it would look like if you fired a charged particle beam (let's say protons going at 99% the speed of light) in a Earth-like atmoshpere

Do charged particles release/reflect photons?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
or what would happen so something it hit?

like ran into the side of the beam?

it would be unlikely that stuff would even get close, as the energy in the particles would be immense. Flesh and metal would melt/burn/etc likely before it even hit the beam.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Alternately who could I ask to find out?

check out the office hours of a physics prof, or if you aren't in uni, maybe corner a science of physics teacher and get their opinion. Its pretty much unknown territory, so their guess may only be a little bit more informed than yours.

Alternatively, what you are describing sounds a lot like a plasma beam, so possibly someone who deals with astrophysics and the sun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

Maybe?

Originally posted by inimalist
Do charged particles release/reflect photons?



like ran into the side of the beam?

it would be unlikely that stuff would even get close, as the energy in the particles would be immense. Flesh and metal would melt/burn/etc likely before it even hit the beam.



check out the office hours of a physics prof, or if you aren't in uni, maybe corner a science of physics teacher and get their opinion. Its pretty much unknown territory, so their guess may only be a little bit more informed than yours.

Alternatively, what you are describing sounds a lot like a plasma beam, so possibly someone who deals with astrophysics and the sun

What this guy said except go for a particle physicist. I am quite sure they make particle beams all the time in particle accelerators.


And, technically, lightening would be a particle beam since it's a beam of electrons traveling close to the speed of light. I just assume that a more controlled particle beam would give off just as many colors as lightening.

And, yes, inimalist is right. The particle beam (or the components) would have to be big enough to reflect visible light. (light wavelengths do have an actual size.)

Originally posted by inimalist
Do charged particles release/reflect photons?

I have no idea.

Originally posted by inimalist
like ran into the side of the beam?

it would be unlikely that stuff would even get close, as the energy in the particles would be immense. Flesh and metal would melt/burn/etc likely before it even hit the beam.

Okay, wow, I hadn't considered that.

Originally posted by inimalist
Alternatively, what you are describing sounds a lot like a plasma beam, so possibly someone who deals with astrophysics and the sun

People tell me that the traditional idea of a plasma beams is very soft sci-fi. I've gotten the impression that particle beam weapons are are a little bit more realistic. I'm not going for rock solid but much harder than, say, Star Trek.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I have no idea.

it comes down to this, basically, as our sense of sight is based on photons. If it works like a beam of light, the only thing we would see (other than that ripple effect that heat produces) would be individual particles when they came in contact with something. If they release photons, it would be like a beam of energy, almost X-men style. Like the sun, only stretched out into a beam. If they reflect photons, it would look like a solid beam of any matter in the colour of the photon they reflect.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Okay, wow, I hadn't considered that.

it brings up the idea that anything firing a particle beam would have to be strong enough to withstand such heat/energy

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
People tell me that the traditional idea of a plasma beams is very soft sci-fi. I've gotten the impression that particle beam weapons are are a little bit more realistic. I'm not going for rock solid but much harder than, say, Star Trek.

you are way outside my knowledge of physics already, so I really can't say

Originally posted by dadudemon
What this guy said except go for a particle physicist. I am quite sure they make particle beams all the time in particle accelerators.

But probably in a vaccum.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And, technically, lightening would be a particle beam since it's a beam of electrons traveling close to the speed of light. I just assume that a more controlled particle beam would give off just as many colors as lightening.

I'm not sure what you mean by "as many colors as lightning". Like it would be bright white?

I think I remember the phrase "linear lightning" being used to describe either electro-lasers or particle beams.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And, yes, inimalist is right. The particle beam (or the components) would have to be big enough to reflect visible light. (light wavelengths do have an actual size.)

But wouldn't it ionize the air sort of like lightning does? After all, electrons are too small to reflect light but we can still see the flash of lightning.

Originally posted by inimalist
it comes down to this, basically, as our sense of sight is based on photons. If it works like a beam of light, the only thing we would see (other than that ripple effect that heat produces) would be individual particles when they came in contact with something. If they release photons, it would be like a beam of energy, almost X-men style. Like the sun, only stretched out into a beam. If they reflect photons, it would look like a solid beam of any matter in the colour of the photon they reflect.

Well protons are probably too small to reflect light and I doubt they emmit any.

Originally posted by inimalist
it brings up the idea that anything firing a particle beam would have to be strong enough to withstand such heat/energy

And you probably wouldn't want to fire it next to someone you care about. Or inside a spaceship.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well protons are probably too small to reflect light and I doubt they emmit any.

then it would be invisible, though you might be onto something with how lightning looks.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And you probably wouldn't want to fire it next to someone you care about. Or inside a spaceship.

afaik. There is probably some critical mass where there are not enough particles being fired to effect someone standing X feet away, etc. But imho, there are probably few actual military uses of plasma, barring some type of indiscriminate siege device.

Though, since you are inventing it, you could always put a reflective device in the "barrel" of the gun that aligns all of the energy toward the target, but again, I'm no physicist.

Originally posted by inimalist
afaik. There is probably some critical mass where there are not enough particles being fired to effect someone standing X feet away, etc. But imho, there are probably few actual military uses of plasma, barring some type of indiscriminate siege device.

Though, since you are inventing it, you could always put a reflective device in the "barrel" of the gun that aligns all of the energy toward the target, but again, I'm no physicist.

I'll level with you. I'm basically going to steal the stats from GURPS (though I did buy the book legally) and then add in a few realistic drawbacks. The game doesn't describe what it would look like, though, so I'm trying to figure out something semi-realistic.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But probably in a vaccum.

Sort of. It's not a pure vacuum as there's still a significant portion of "atmosphere" in the TUUUUUUUUBES! (Sorry, I love saying the word "tubes".)



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm not sure what you mean by "as many colors as lightning". Like it would be bright white?

I think I remember the phrase "linear lightning" being used to describe either electro-lasers or particle beams.


http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/wea00/wea00008.htm

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But wouldn't it ionize the air sort of like lightning does? After all, electrons are too small to reflect light but we can still see the flash of lightning.

It's plasma I thought? Also, the ionized channel occurs before the lightning.

It would be very loud and bright blue and purple in color with a louder bang immediately after being fired.

Somewhat different question; why?

Blue/purple- high energy beam traveling at a speed that exceeds the speed of light locally (Cherenkov radiation). May have a white halo that degrades to lower energy colors as particles are annihilated if this is an antiparticle stream.

Loud sound-stream of particles breaking the sound barrier and (if antiparticles are part of the stream annihilating local matter.

Loud Sound after beam burst-Air rushing in to fill the vacuum left by particles and/or annihilated matter.

That's my thinking.

Sorry, I should have clarified. Why does SC want to know.

I think he's a super scientist building a classic 1960's death ray. The kind that comes out of a dome in a laboratory on a secret island.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Somewhat different question; why?

I'm writing a story and want something better than a phaser, which might as well be magic.

Well if you want to be realistic about it, keep in mind that getting hit with something like this will be very gorey and horrible and that if it's a handheld thingy that has the energy to vaporize someone, the recoil is gonna send the shooter on three round trips around the planet.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm writing a story and want something better than a phaser, which might as well be magic.

How far into the future?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How far into the future?

when do humans discover magic?

Originally posted by inimalist
when do humans discover magic? I was hoping that was just around the corner.

Originally posted by inimalist
when do humans discover magic?

As soon as we figured out how to make a flash light.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Well if you want to be realistic about it, keep in mind that getting hit with something like this will be very gorey and horrible and that if it's a handheld thingy that has the energy to vaporize someone, the recoil is gonna send the shooter on three round trips around the planet. If its truly a beam weapon it would have no recoil.

He said particle

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Well if you want to be realistic about it, keep in mind that getting hit with something like this will be very gorey and horrible and that if it's a handheld thingy that has the energy to vaporize someone, the recoil is gonna send the shooter on three round trips around the planet.

There's no reason I know of that the power can't be dialed down from the ones we use for experiments today. You don't have to vaporize someone to kill them.

Originally posted by One Free Man
If its truly a beam weapon it would have no recoil.

Protons have mass so presumably accelerating them to an enormous speed would result in recoil.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Does anyone know what it would look like if you fired a charged particle beam (let's say protons going at 99% the speed of light) in a Earth-like atmoshpere or what would happen so something it hit?

Alternately who could I ask to find out?

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1984/jul-aug/roberds.html

Maybe there's something useful there.

If you're writing a story about future-tech particle beams, why not give the beam a compound nature (since you brought up "phaser," I'm assuming we're talking at least 50-100 years). Some kind of annular containment field (say, to keep the beam from spreading). This way you could also technobabble any type of atmospheric/strike effect you want.

In any event, I would imagine a beam of great velocity/mass would punch through the air like a meteor moving at lightning speed. You'd get a plasma flash followed by thunder; and whatever it hit would react as if struck by a meteor or lightning.

Originally posted by Mindship
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1984/jul-aug/roberds.html

Maybe there's something useful there.

If you're writing a story about future-tech particle beams, why not give the beam a compound nature (since you brought up "phaser," I'm assuming we're talking at least 50-100 years). Some kind of annular containment field (say, to keep the beam from spreading). This way you could also technobabble any type of atmospheric/strike effect you want.

In any event, I would imagine a beam of great velocity/mass would punch through the air like a meteor moving at lightning speed. You'd get a plasma flash followed by thunder; and whatever it hit would react as if struck by a meteor or lightning.

I don't like the whole "force field" idea. I've got no problem with shows that use it but I find it hard to justify using in my own work.

That's a good link. I've checked on Atomic Rocket and Orion's Arm too. In general terms the result seems to be that a blaster would probably make the target explode and that it would look like a bolt of lightning. I'll switch from protons to electrons because it doesn't seem like there would be any effect on power and apparently an electron blaster will focus itself in an atmosphere.


Still can't find anything on the recoil. Working from GURPS: Ultra-Tech (which is more reliable than it sounds) the original design had almost no recoil but it makes sense for it to be massive because it's expelling a lot of energy very quickly in one direction. On the other hand the physics of normal recoil are more complicated than I thought: an M16 fires bullets with 1500ft/lb of force but recoils with just five.

This happened to a Russian scientist called Anatoli Bugorski.

He lent over a piece of equipment and the particle beam went through his head. He didn't die.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Still can't find anything on the recoil. Working from GURPS: Ultra-Tech (which is more reliable than it sounds) the original design had almost no recoil but it makes sense for it to be massive because it's expelling a lot of energy very quickly in one direction. On the other hand the physics of normal recoil are more complicated than I thought: an M16 fires bullets with 1500ft/lb of force but recoils with just five.

Then a hand-carried weapon of the future, sophisticated enough to fire a substantial particle beam, should (I would think) have phenomenal recoil absorption, especially if it's a smart weapon.

What's your power source?

Originally posted by Mindship
Then a hand-carried weapon of the future, sophisticated enough to fire a substantial particle beam, should (I would think) have phenomenal recoil absorption, especially if it's a smart weapon.

What's your power source?

Some sort of high energy density capacitor.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Some sort of high energy density capacitor.

Idea for uniforms/body armor- a layer of interlacing nomex and kevlar strips outside, followed by a layer of ferrifluids that are connected to a layer of circuitry suspended in a non-Newtonian fluid with a layer of neoprene covering the skin. The inner fluid makes it impervious to all but the hardest impacts, the outer surface resists tearing, cold, and heat. putting current through the ferrifluid via the inner circuitry generates a magnetic field that offers limited protection to larger projectiles and particle and energy beams. The fluids in the uniform would also add weight to punches and kicks and absorb shocks such as recoil, falls, jumps from high places, etc greatly recuding stress on joints and bones.

Something like this could become reality in the next 50 years anyway.

The weapons could be powered by the field generated by the suit and be uniquely patterned to individual users.

Wouldnt that be too expensive for the Military to get paid for, at least en mass...?
(Look at the issues we have right now, with the troops being underequipped/underarmoured.)

Originally posted by Darth Jello
... suspended in a non-Newtonian fluid ...
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Wouldnt that be too expensive for the Military to get paid for...

They can use ketchup.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Idea for uniforms/body armor- a layer of interlacing nomex and kevlar strips outside, followed by a layer of ferrifluids that are connected to a layer of circuitry suspended in a non-Newtonian fluid with a layer of neoprene covering the skin. The inner fluid makes it impervious to all but the hardest impacts, the outer surface resists tearing, cold, and heat. putting current through the ferrifluid via the inner circuitry generates a magnetic field that offers limited protection to larger projectiles and particle and energy beams. The fluids in the uniform would also add weight to punches and kicks and absorb shocks such as recoil, falls, jumps from high places, etc greatly recuding stress on joints and bones.

Something like this could become reality in the next 50 years anyway.

The weapons could be powered by the field generated by the suit and be uniquely patterned to individual users.

This brings back memories.


When I was a lad, I theorized of a full body, body armor. The body armor would be filled with a non-newtonian fluid, engineered to only become a "solid" at certain sheer forces, allowing flexibility, while providing awesome bullet proofing. The "space" would have an interlaced grid of a durable solid, like Kevlar. That way, when the bullet impacted, the kevler would create a larger "impact volume" and solidify in a large area, absorbing more of the bullet's kinetic energy, lessening or even eliminating the impact on the individual. (Despite soem vests being bullet proof, the wearer will sometimes end up with large-painful bruises...that's the basis of that idea.)


Here's why my idea was stupid (I was young and ignorant, cut me some slack, lol): I didn't take into consideration that the fluid would all flow to the bottom of the suit. I didn't consider the temperature comfort of the wearer (cause that would likely get hot.). And even if I compartmentalized the suit, wouldn't the compartments create points of failure in protection? (A weak spot, if you may. On top of that, if a hole forms, one compartment will flow into the other, creating another weak spot.) I guess I could remedy this with a fluid density differential, on a function of height. The most dense at the bottom, and the least dense at the top. Would it mix as the solidier ran? It'd depend on the fluid, really.


Also, I think you meant magnetorheological fluid, not ferrofluid. I could be wrong and I'm missing it.

The fluid could be stored in like, 100 individual chambers with the material separating them being a weakness of the suit.

The Ferrofluid would be the other weakness considering that if it was stimulated by an outside powerful field while the personal field was off, the fluid could literally spike right through the users chest. I guess it could act as a programmable shock absorber too.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
The fluid could be stored in like, 100 individual chambers with the material separating them being a weakness of the suit.

Yeah. That's what I said about my idea. They call those PoFs, in the IT and engineering world. (Point of Failure.)

Originally posted by Darth Jello
The Ferrofluid would be the other weakness considering that if it was stimulated by an outside powerful field while the personal field was off, the fluid could literally spike right through the users chest. I guess it could act as a programmable shock absorber too.

Indeed. Doesn't sound pleasant. You also have the problem of keeping the solider cool...just like my old idea.

Actually I'm going to use multiple layers of diamoindoid fabric with a pressure/counterpressure system for work in exotic atmospheres. A slim system on the back has a superconductor loop to power extensive artificial muscles and some computerized systems.

Really though it's hard to stop a blaster or high energy laser so one of the more important effects will be to prevent the wearer from being targeted and make him able to rapidly acquire targets. The idea is to create a sort of John Woo feel to combat scenes.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually I'm going to use multiple layers of diamoindoid fabric with a pressure/counterpressure system for work in exotic atmospheres. A slim system on the back has a superconductor loop to power extensive artificial muscles and some computerized systems.

Why not make it a remote controlled robot?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Really though it's hard to stop a blaster or high energy laser so one of the more important effects will be to prevent the wearer from being targeted and make him able to rapidly acquire targets. The idea is to create a sort of John Woo feel to combat scenes.

I have a headache.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why not make it a remote controlled robot?

Because I based the setting on biotech transhumanism

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have a headache.

If you can't protect yourself from the weapons you have to stop the enemy from shooting you in the first place.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually I'm going to use multiple layers of diamoindoid fabric with a pressure/counterpressure system for work in exotic atmospheres. A slim system on the back has a superconductor loop to power extensive artificial muscles and some computerized systems.
robotPic?

Originally posted by Mindship
robotPic?

In keeping with my original inspiration for the design, this is a lower tech sort of streamlined battlesuit from GURPS: Ultra-Tech. I'll use a different color scheme, though.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In keeping with my original inspiration for the design, this is a lower tech sort of streamlined battlesuit from GURPS: Ultra-Tech. I'll use a different color scheme, though. I'm not familiar with this. Nice trim and segment lines.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Because I based the setting on biotech transhumanism

How DARE you!





Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you can't protect yourself from the weapons you have to stop the enemy from shooting you in the first place.

My post was just an aside. I had nothing to add to what you were saying, so I figured on saying what was on my mind, which was PAIN!

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm not familiar with this. Nice trim and segment lines.

I don't know what that means.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't know what that means. The fancy stuff, eg, the helmet lights; or where it looks like the armor could section on the body/legs...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually I'm going to use multiple layers of diamoindoid fabric with a pressure/counterpressure system for work in exotic atmospheres. A slim system on the back has a superconductor loop to power extensive artificial muscles and some computerized systems.

Really though it's hard to stop a blaster or high energy laser so one of the more important effects will be to prevent the wearer from being targeted and make him able to rapidly acquire targets. The idea is to create a sort of John Woo feel to combat scenes.

I'm seeing a very strong possibility for asymmetric warfare here.

So much reliance on countermeasures to prevent auto-targeting almost biases a fight in favor of someone with a traditional high powered rifle.

It is VERY hard to stop a .50 cal rifle blast, especially if it is armor penetrating.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm seeing a very strong possibility for asymmetric warfare here.

So much reliance on countermeasures to prevent auto-targeting almost biases a fight in favor of someone with a traditional high powered rifle.

It is VERY hard to stop a .50 cal rifle blast, especially if it is armor penetrating.

True but so long as the targeting systems exist you need to have a way to avoid them or anyone/thing using them will snipe you from a mile away. The suit I'm working from has ways of avoiding passive sensors as well as radar and such but I down graded that to one color at a time.

A sniper would still have an advantage but with bullet triangulation (which we can do today) and a networked army the job is suicide anyway. Might be good for assassinations.

In fact one that has struck me as this plays out is that the better weapons are almost irrelevant to how dangerous a battle is. The really important aspect is knowing where everyone is which will get easier and easier.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
True but so long as the targeting systems exist you need to have a way to avoid them or anyone/thing using them will snipe you from a mile away. The suit I'm working from has ways of avoiding passive sensors as well as radar and such but I down graded that to one color at a time.

In other words, "NUH UHHH! My suit has anti-'whatever your points you can come up with' high technologeez!"

I used to do the same thing with my littler brother, all the time. It was funny watching him get angry at me for thinking of "opposites" that could block whatever weapon he came up with.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A sniper would still have an advantage but with bullet triangulation (which we can do today) and a networked army the job is suicide anyway. Might be good for assassinations.

Particle beam should be fairly straight. Dissipation could take miles, if it's focused enough. That'd be great for sniping.

Originally posted by dadudemon
In other words, "NUH UHHH! My suit has anti-'whatever your points you can come up with' high technologeez!"

I used to do the same thing with my littler brother, all the time. It was funny watching him get angry at me for thinking of "opposites" that could block whatever weapon he came up with.

True but there's a history of that happening. Every targeting system has some sort of weakness even eyes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Particle beam should be fairly straight. Dissipation could take miles, if it's focused enough. That'd be great for sniping.

Probably not with a pistol like weapon.

Based on some work from the people at Atomic Rocket blasters probably wouldn't have the range to compete with railguns as sniper weapons.
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3l2.html

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
True but there's a history of that happening. Every targeting system has some sort of weakness even eyes.

I just thought it was funny. No matter what someone says, as long as you're using imaginary technology, you can always beat them. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! evillaugh



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Probably not with a pistol like weapon.

Based on some work from the people at Atomic Rocket blasters probably wouldn't have the range to compete with railguns as sniper weapons.
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3l2.html


Maybe. But I was thinking more along the lines of a lightening bolt. That travels rather far. 100+ miles, in some cases. Since lightning is the closet thing we have to a an actual particle beam, I figure it is a good example (though, we are FAR from creating something that powerful in a portable form.) I'm with you on the rail gun thing .That's a much better choice. Heh.

With regard to all of the above...reminds me of when I used to design starships. Playing with future tech is fun, but sometimes it gets tough balancing what you'd like the tech to do with how the tech could prevent a given situation. It's like writing a story about a character with an open powerset: if he can do A, then there shouldn't be danger B, though B would be an exciting scenario to write about.