Batdude123 and TheKahn's Holiday Herald Tournament

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TheKahn
Teams
- two debaters each

Character Limits
- each team will select three characters for their teams with the top power limit set at the herald-level
- ie no team-busters like Despero or Thanos. Also, no characters that are physically invulnerable/indestructible
- no matter manipulation of the opposition's bodies or "speed stealing"
- more limits will be applied as necessary to keep things fair

Draft
- Thursday, Dec 17 2009 at 8:00 pm EST
- Characters will be drafted one at a time
- Teams will need to provide the names of both partners, the name of the character desired, and a link to a bio to secure the character
- Characters will be taken first come, first served

http://thegameworld.com/fb/games/204/fight.PNG

-Pr-
reminds me of batdude's tourney back in the day. looks interesting... mmm

id369
coffee1

Strictly comics no manga's? These Herald Tournaments are past the point of being stale and redundant.

batdude123
Then don't participate. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/coffee1.gif

-Pr-
Originally posted by id369
coffee1

Strictly comics no manga's? These Herald Tournaments are past the point of being stale and redundant.

the hundreds of comics characters aren't enough for you?

even with just heralds, that's dozens of picks to choose from.

id369

Kris Blaze

id369
Well Tetsou has that nasty miniature Big Bang blast. I would love to see, what members could come up with during prep.

TheKahn

id369
I am one of those rare hybrids that love comics as much as manga. What can I say, they entertain me. But I have noticed since 2005, that masses on this particular section repulse the idea of manga or anime being part of any versus topics for personal issues. I blame it on Superman vs. Goku. >_>

I would love to host one more tournament. Maybe even here. But my recent staffing, and joining a scan group has tied up my free time. Hell as we speak, I am writing up a translation script for a hard to find manga.




The Ultimate Battledomer!
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/833/warriorcj.jpg



Respect Dome
Sticky: Non-OBD Respect Thread Index
Cosmic File: Genis-Vell (working on)
OA Files: Kyle Rayner
Saint Seiya Info Center.
Mutant Files: Clyde Wyncham ~ Marquis of Death.
Beta Ray Bill
Welcome to the Stryfe Files
Witchblade/Excalibur (on hold)
Nate Grey - X-Man (working on)
Saint Seiya Episode G ~ Titanomachy Database
Spawn Official Feats, Features and Respect Thread (I might redux this one)
Mutant Files - David Charles Haller (Legion)
Respect the Phoenix.
Lobo Respect Thread
Mutant Files: Nathan Christopher Charles Summers
The Darkness Respect Thread
Marvel Comics Top 20 Mutants.
Ultimate Captain America Respect/feats/info thread.
The Rapture.






Metadome
OBD Project: History of the OBD
Winter Time FBL.
OBD Mythbuster
Herald Level Amalgam Tournament Discussion.
FBL - Battle Zone Edition.

FC
OBD FC - Come Get Your Rape.

-Pr-
Originally posted by id369
I am one of those rare hybrids that love comics as much as manga. What can I say, they entertain me. But I have noticed since 2005, that masses on this particular section repulse the idea of manga or anime being part of any versus topics for personal issues. I blame it on Superman vs. Goku. >_>

it's not "personal issues". it's about keeping the peace.

and if it's the same 20 people, that's the fault of the entrants, and not the fact that it's a comics tourney. there are tons of characters to choose from.

id369
Originally posted by -Pr-
it's not "personal issues". it's about keeping the peace.

and if it's the same 20 people, that's the fault of the entrants, and not the fact that it's a comics tourney. there are tons of characters to choose from.

You think, that allowing manga characters will disrupt erratic behavior?

Excellent, good luck if you wish to partcipate.

-Pr-
Originally posted by id369
You think, that allowing manga characters will disrupt erratic behavior?

Excellent, good luck if you wish to partcipate.

on the forum in general? we do actually allow the odd thread. the problem is that the manga fans that have come on to the forum when we have allowed them have been, for the most part, nothing but trouble.

id369
Originally posted by -Pr-
on the forum in general? we do actually allow the odd thread. the problem is that the manga fans that have come on to the forum when we have allowed them have been, for the most part, nothing but trouble.
No not in the forum in general, but in a tournament.

psycho gundam
illadelph's tournament/battledome rules with mixed genre characters is still officially active. blair and smurph made a team and are awaiting an opponent so.... what are you waiting for?

i picked a manga character in my team and no problems arose, just pm delph if you want him to gather judges, it's that easy.

Kris Blaze
I had no problem judging Psycho's team and it contained a Manga character.

Have everybody forgotten Akuki already? sad

id369
Will Akuki ?coot

-Pr-
Originally posted by id369
No not in the forum in general, but in a tournament.

not every tournament has to have manga, though. there have been a few that have had it already...

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by psycho gundam
illadelph's tournament/battledome rules with mixed genre characters is still officially active. blair and smurph made a team and are awaiting an opponent so.... what are you waiting for?

i picked a manga character in my team and no problems arose, just pm delph if you want him to gather judges, it's that easy.

I've challenged them and now waiting for them agreeing on the match...Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I had no problem judging Psycho's team and it contained a Manga character.

Have everybody forgotten Akuki already? sad

If not for Silient Hill...*sighs*

psycho gundam
when did you issue the challenge?

meh, i might feel up to fighting id some time in the future if i'm bored, same team, i just need to fix my opening strategy a bit and i believe i can handle that kid shifty

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by psycho gundam
when did you issue the challenge?

meh, i might feel up to fighting id some time in the future if i'm bored, same team, i just need to fix my opening strategy a bit and i believe i can handle that kid shifty

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=488789&pagenumber=197

King Kandy
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Have everybody forgotten Akuki already? sad
I haven't. My team up with him was one of my best times in a tourney to date.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by King Kandy
I haven't. My team up with him was one of my best times in a tourney to date.

And I ended up trying to save our collective ass on my own in the later stages of tourney.

King Kandy
I admit I pretty much ran away when the silent hill stage came. It's a regret to be sure.

TheKahn
Teams and characters drafted so far:

Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL)

darthgoober/Blair Wind - Silver Surfer

Team Omega/Zeuodin - Wally West (Flash)

Team JaketheBank w/tba partner - Thor

Team Twig & Berries (Ha Son and Validus) - Superman

Team: Kris Blaze/TBD - Loki

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Tangent Superman (Harvey Dent)

TheKahn
Team update:


Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL)

darthgoober/Blair Wind - Silver Surfer

Team Omega/Zeuodin - Wally West (Flash)

Team JaketheBank & Kris Blaze - Thor

Team Twig & Berries (Ha Son and Validus) - Superman

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Tangent Superman (Harvey Dent)

TheKahn
I'll try and keep the teams and rosters updated here for easy reference.

Team update:


Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL)

darthgoober/Blair Wind - Silver Surfer

Team Omega/Zeuodin - Wally West (Flash)

Team JaketheBank & Kris Blaze - Thor

Team Twig & Berries (Ha Son and Validus) - Superman

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell

Rage.Of.Olympus
This sounds like fun. I'd play but Thor and Wally are taken. Damn.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This sounds like fun. I'd play but Thor and Wally are taken. Damn.

Still have Beta Ray Bill and Barry Allen available....shifty

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
Still have Beta Ray Bill and Barry Allen available....shifty
I thought you said no PC characters(talking about Barry here since that's when most of his appearances are from)?

psycho gundam
flash rebirth is about it right now (technically flash should get a lot done in one issue)

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by TheKahn
Still have Beta Ray Bill and Barry Allen available....shifty

Hmmm, I could really use Bill effectively. He is a fairly powerful character.

Unfortunately Thor is in the same tourney, and if Jake or Kris have the skills, they can easily use some instances to prove that Thor is his superior in strength, durability, power etc. Not to mention the ass kicking in blood and thunder.

I'll get back to you soon.

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
I thought you said no PC characters(talking about Barry here since that's when most of his appearances are from)?

I just said he was available thanks to his recent resurrection.....I never said he had a lot of post-crisis feats. wink

TheKahn
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hmmm, I could really use Bill effectively. He is a fairly powerful character.

Unfortunately Thor is in the same tourney, and if Jake or Kris have the skills, they can easily use some instances to prove that Thor is his superior in strength, durability, power etc. Not to mention the ass kicking in blood and thunder.

I'll get back to you soon.

Cool, if we could get up to eight teams the numbers for the brackets would work out great. smile

Also, the battle schedule will be determined at random so there is no certainty who you will be facing.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by TheKahn
Cool, if we could get up to eight teams the numbers for the brackets would work out great. smile

Also, the battle schedule will be determined at random so there is no certainty who you will be facing.

Cool. When is the dead line for drafting characters and when does the tourney start?

My time will be limited for a period of time unfortunately. I want to finish my Thor respect thread and I still have to flip through some 200 odd Thor appearances to make sure I haven't missed anything. I have to start on Monday because I'm going out for the weekend or I'd have been working on it right now.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Cool. When is the dead line for drafting characters and when does the tourney start?

We're going to leave the 1st round draft thread up for a few days just in case anyone who wants to participate hasn't got a chance to respond yet. Once all the picks are in, we'll move on to the second and third rounds which should move quicker. I'm thinking the drafts should be over by the end of next week with the tournament starting shortly thereafter (of course we will schedule around Christmas).

If Batdude is cool with it, I'm willing to let teams join right up to the start of the tourney. They'll suffer from not having first choice over the characters by missing the drafts, but given how many Herald-level characters there are it shouldn't be too much of a handicap.

TheKahn
The Second Round of Drafting for Batdude and Kahn's Tournament will be Monday, Dec. 21 at 8pm EST. smile

TheKahn
Characters drafted so far:

Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL)

Team darthgoober/Blair Wind - Silver Surfer

Team Omega Vision - Wally West (Flash)

Team JaketheBank & Kris Blaze - Thor

Team Twig & Berries (Ha Son and Validus) - Superman

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell

Draft Round 2: Monday, Dec. 21 8pm EST

TheKahn
Confirmed Teams and Drafted Characters


Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL)

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer

Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash)

Team JaketheBank - Thor

Team Twig & Berries (Ha Son and Validus) - Superman

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL)

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman


Draft Round 2: Monday, Dec. 21 8pm EST

Digi
Let it be known that I think 5 minutes is an insane amount of prep time for high heralds. Insane.

batdude123
Originally posted by Digi
Let it be known that I think 5 minutes is an insane amount of prep time for high heralds. Insane.

Let it be known we don't care. peaches

Digi
Originally posted by batdude123
Let it be known we don't care. peaches

lol, noted.

I'm just looking out for myself as judge. I don't want to sift through mountains of scans just to see if Team X's psychotic 5-minute galaxy-busting strategy beats Team Z's. Especially given some of the matter manipulators + Flash, and 5 minutes is an eternity.

Still, noted. Scan-sifting it shall be.

wink

King Kandy
Originally posted by Digi
lol, noted.

I'm just looking out for myself as judge. I don't want to sift through mountains of scans just to see if Team X's psychotic 5-minute galaxy-busting strategy beats Team Z's. Especially given some of the matter manipulators + Flash, and 5 minutes is an eternity.

Still, noted. Scan-sifting it shall be.

wink
Using speed force to extend the prep time is banned.

Digi
Originally posted by King Kandy
Using speed force to extend the prep time is banned.

One need not extend it. Just the increased speed alone plus a decent matter manipulator. Hell, I'd think 5 minutes was too long for heralds without Flashes, to give you some perspective. People always underestimate how batty prep gets by the end of these things with any length of time, and it turns into "whose strategy do you believe more" instead of "who debated better." There's an art to both forms of debating, no doubt. But it makes it harder from a judging perspective.

TheKahn
The 5 minutes for prep his a hard limit. Attempts to circumvent the amount of time given will not be tolerated. no expression

Any judge who feels a team is intentionally breaking/exploiting the rules is certainly allowed to hold that against the team in question when making their decision.

-Pr-
so speed building tech isn't allowed?

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
so speed building tech isn't allowed?

Within reasonable limits. Again, its up to the individual judges to determine if a team strays beyond the limits.

-Pr-
Originally posted by TheKahn
Within reasonable limits. Again, its up to the individual judges to determine if a team strays beyond the limits.

ah, ok.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Digi
One need not extend it. Just the increased speed alone plus a decent matter manipulator. Hell, I'd think 5 minutes was too long for heralds without Flashes, to give you some perspective. People always underestimate how batty prep gets by the end of these things with any length of time, and it turns into "whose strategy do you believe more" instead of "who debated better." There's an art to both forms of debating, no doubt. But it makes it harder from a judging perspective.
I've been in like five tourneys. I know what you're talking about all too well. But this one seems... different. Like, things are banned on such a sweeping, general level that it really gives it a different feel.

TheKahn
Originally posted by King Kandy
I've been in like five tourneys. I know what you're talking about all too well. But this one seems... different. Like, things are banned on such a sweeping, general level that it really gives it a different feel.

Complaining of any type is also banned. banned





















no expression

Digi
Originally posted by King Kandy
I've been in like five tourneys. I know what you're talking about all too well. But this one seems... different. Like, things are banned on such a sweeping, general level that it really gives it a different feel.

I see what you're saying, and I have no doubt that prep will be tame in the first few rounds. But escalation in these things is absurd. I fully expect to be reading epic diatribes on prep plans by the finals.

TheKahn
Round Three will start tonight at 9pm EST (Tuesday Dec. 22)
Also, teams will be allowed to add/drop characters until the start of the Trade Round which we are not going to start until after Christmas (just to give everyone some time to mull things over).

TheKahn
Confirmed Teams and Drafted Characters


Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom

Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman

Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Nate Grey

-Pr-
out of the teams, these are the ones that bother me:

Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna, Tangent Superman

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom, Eradicator

Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman

Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman, Infinity Man

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar, Onslaught

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman, Martian Manhunter

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki, Atrocitus

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Nate Grey, Adam Warlock


those three are ones i'd worry about in terms of validity. if the hosts decide they're ok, then ok. no problems with anyone else, tbh.

Charlotte DeBel
I think Id said he'll be using Onslaught sans Nate&Franklin=just Xavier+Magneto essence. That is tolerable...at least.

Infinity Man is illegal no doubt.

Loki=shifty pick (no pun intended), but he goes into same precedent as Zee...aka magic being heavily restricted.

id369
That is correct, we drafted just Onslaught. No Franklin Richards or Nate Grey. It would really suck to lose him now, since my top choice was shoot down (Phoenix II) and my back up drafts have been taken. X-Man, Tangent Superman, and Martian Manhunter.

srsly

Anyhow I have question. Can Pr clarify if this is Pre Death Martian Manhunter, or the current Zombified Martian Manhunter with Black Lantern Ring?

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by id369
That is correct, we drafted just Onslaught. No Franklin Richards or Nate Grey. It would really suck to lose him now, since my top choice was shoot down (Phoenix II) and my back up drafts have been taken. X-Man, Tangent Superman, and Martian Manhunter.

srsly

Anyhow I have question. Can Pr clarify if this is Pre Death Martian Manhunter, or the current Zombified Martian Manhunter with Black Lantern Ring?

I think zombie is above killability cap, so normal as pre-death?

And I'm glad gundam managed to grab Tangent Superman...we were alterating between him and J'onn.

id369
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
I think zombie is above killability cap, so normal as pre-death?

And I'm glad gundam managed to grab Tangent Superman...we were alterating between him and J'onn. He was suppose to be my sleeper choice, the lone psi character flying under the radar in case all my Psi options where shoot down.


Off all the members here now he is in your hands.

sad

Thank the Phoenix Force, Exodus Cloak does not participate in these kinds tournaments.
embarrasment

-Pr-
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
I think Id said he'll be using Onslaught sans Nate&Franklin=just Xavier+Magneto essence. That is tolerable...at least.

Infinity Man is illegal no doubt.

Loki=shifty pick (no pun intended), but he goes into same precedent as Zee...aka magic being heavily restricted.

even so, is it not that it's basically two characters merged that are being drafted? is that legal?

Originally posted by id369
That is correct, we drafted just Onslaught. No Franklin Richards or Nate Grey. It would really suck to lose him now, since my top choice was shoot down (Phoenix II) and my back up drafts have been taken. X-Man, Tangent Superman, and Martian Manhunter.

srsly

Anyhow I have question. Can Pr clarify if this is Pre Death Martian Manhunter, or the current Zombified Martian Manhunter with Black Lantern Ring?

pre death. no white light for you! stick out tongue

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by id369
He was suppose to be my sleeper choice, the lone psi character flying under the radar in case all my Psi options where shoot down.


Off all the members here now he is in your hands.

sad

Thank the Phoenix Force, Exodus Cloak does not participate in these kinds tournaments.
embarrasment

Kris has just changed Nate to Talisman II. It seems you can have X-Man instead of Onslaught (no iffy stuff that way).

TBH, I'd have been more comfortable with J'onn. Tangent Superman is uber, but has little appearances and there's possibility of "you can't prove you can say "tomato" things happening due to rather low scan pool.
OTOH, I did manage to be pretty versatile in Delph's tournament with the guy who had barely 12 or so appearances by the time (Zachary Zatara, that inspired me to draft his cousin). So low scan pool is not that bad of a thing...
The possibility of "big fish from small pond" is. Though Tangent Supes was toying with GLs, so he's no way the case of that, being actually put against mainstream characters.

id369
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Kris has just changed Nate to Talisman II. It seems you can have X-Man instead of Onslaught (no iffy stuff that way).

TBH, I'd have been more comfortable with J'onn. Tangent Superman is uber, but has little appearances and there's possibility of "you can't prove you can say "tomato" things happening due to rather low scan pool.
OTOH, I did manage to be pretty versatile in Delph's tournament with the guy who had barely 12 or so appearances by the time (Zachary Zatara, that inspired me to draft his cousin). So low scan pool is not that bad of a thing...
The possibility of "big fish from small pond" is. Though Tangent Supes was toying with GLs, so he's no way the case of that, being actually put against mainstream characters.

Kandy is not comfortable using X-Man, reason for that is... on his own Nate can not compete with nearly all drafted picks.
Originally posted by -Pr-
even so, is it not that it's basically two characters merged that are being drafted? is that legal?



Well this is how I looked at it.

He was a legal choice because he does not have feats to place him over herald class.

He was a smart choice, given that Onslaught is mergence of two separate psyches. Thus attain control over Psy and EM.

I figured it was a legal and smart choice. awesrug


Originally posted by -Pr-


pre death. no white light for you! stick out tongue
jr_shakefist

The Nuul
Onslaught ripped the Gem of Cyttorak right out of Juggernaut, no HH can do that feat. This was way before he merged with Nate and Frank. Paul is also correct that Onslaught is Mags and Charles so in fact this is a two for one deal thus shouldnt be allowed.

-Pr-
Originally posted by id369
Kandy is not comfortable using X-Man, reason for that is... on his own Nate can not compete with nearly all drafted picks.


Well this is how I looked at it.

He was a legal choice because he does not have feats to place him over herald class.

He was a smart choice, given that Onslaught is mergence of two separate psyches. Thus attain control over Psy and EM.

I figured it was a legal and smart choice. awesrug



jr_shakefist

it still bothers me a little that you're basically getting two characters for the price of one.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by id369
Kandy is not comfortable using X-Man, reason for that is... on his own Nate can not compete with nearly all drafted picks.


Well this is how I looked at it.

He was a legal choice because he does not have feats to place him over herald class.

He was a smart choice, given that Onslaught is mergence of two separate psyches. Thus attain control over Psy and EM.

I figured it was a legal and smart choice. awesrug



jr_shakefist

I think teams share debating responsibilities. That way you can have

Nate- debated by you
Genis- Kandy
Quasar- team

No discomfort that way.

id369
Originally posted by -Pr-
it still bothers me a little that you're basically getting two characters for the price of one.


Why cant you just be happy for me embarrasment

-Pr-
Originally posted by id369
Why cant you just be happy for me embarrasment

laughing out loud

there is the spanking of juggernaut too to be considered. stick out tongue

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by -Pr-
laughing out loud

there is the spanking of juggernaut too to be considered. stick out tongue

Nate is back to pool, so you can go grab him and don't worry about any "crisis villains".

-Pr-
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Nate is back to pool, so you can go grab him and don't worry about any "crisis villains".

i'm actually not a fan of nate, tbh.

id369
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
I think teams share debating responsibilities. That way you can have

Nate- debated by you
Genis- Kandy
Quasar- team

No discomfort that way.

That would work. When I spoke to Kandy, I suggested we have fun in this one and draft our favorite characters.

But it seems, he wants to make a statement this time around. I rather work with then against him.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm actually not a fan of nate, tbh.

It was to Id, misquote, sorry, Paul.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
It was to Id, misquote, sorry, Paul.

i thought so, but i didn't want to not reply just in case.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by id369
That would work. When I spoke to Kandy, I suggested we have fun in this one and draft our favorite characters.

But it seems, he wants to make a statement this time around. I rather work with then against him.

But when people beyotch about Onslaught left and right (and not in the way they did about Zee who has never had a chance against the likes of Thanos other than in the minds of deluded fanboys)...isn't it wise to go with safer pick?

id369

Kris Blaze
Now I'm a bit curious about how these fights will go do.

Do the team get collective prep and then one combatant step out on the battlefield or?

TheKahn
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Now I'm a bit curious about how these fights will go do.

Do the team get collective prep and then one combatant step out on the battlefield or?

The team get to prepare as a group and fight as a group. Matches will 3 on 3 rumbles.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by TheKahn
The team get to prepare as a group and fight as a group. Matches will 3 on 3 rumbles.
Okay.

And on the battlefield, I will make post for one guy, my team-mate for another and then the both of us on the third?

id369
And if a round robin happens, its the [email protected]@cking royal rumble!smurph

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by id369
And if a round robin happens, its the [email protected]@cking royal rumble!smurph
I intentionally chose Nate Grey because you called me a Loki fanboy once.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Now I'm a bit curious about how these fights will go do.

Do the team get collective prep and then one combatant step out on the battlefield or?

Team preps together and fights together, it's debating that shared. Read the archives and the tourney Kahn won...it had the same rules.

id369
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I intentionally chose Nate Grey because you called me a Loki fanboy once.

You still are. awesrug

TheKahn
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Okay.

And on the battlefield, I will make post for one guy, my team-mate for another and then the both of us on the third?

Yep. thumb up

leonidas
Originally posted by The Nuul
Onslaught ripped the Gem of Cyttorak right out of Juggernaut, no HH can do that feat. This was way before he merged with Nate and Frank. Paul is also correct that Onslaught is Mags and Charles so in fact this is a two for one deal thus shouldnt be allowed.

accurate. erm

ps--believe it or not, i'd considered that version of onslaught, but didn't think he would be allowed . . .

Kris Blaze
How are things looking for Jake and a new team-mate? Was Face going to join?

Bentley
Are you still choosing judges?

TheKahn
Originally posted by Bentley
Are you still choosing judges?

We can always use extra judges. Interested?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
How are things looking for Jake and a new team-mate? Was Face going to join?

I'm currently in talks with someone thumb up

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm currently in talks with someone thumb up
Good. Hope I didn't let you down too much.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Good. Hope I didn't let you down too much.

No worries, man! big grin

Bentley
Originally posted by TheKahn
We can always use extra judges. Interested?

Verily! Just tell me when and I'll be there judging cool

TheKahn
Originally posted by Bentley
Verily! Just tell me when and I'll be there judging cool

thumb up

Digi
Make a list of judges for yourself. In two months, you'll forget who volunteered. And start shooting out PMs to long-time members who you think would be good judges. A good goal is 10 judges, so there's more than 4-5 judging every single match.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Digi
Make a list of judges for yourself. In two months, you'll forget who volunteered. And start shooting out PMs to long-time members who you think would be good judges. A good goal is 10 judges, so there's more than 4-5 judging every single match.

Done and done. So far we have:
Illadelph
Digi
Starscream
Original Smurph
Bentley
plus Batdude and myself.

I'm hoping we'll have a few more volunteers before matches start next Monday. If not we'll try and call in some KMC veterans. smile

Digi
That's a good list, other than the fact that I don't think I've ever agreed with an Illadelph decision. Seriously, never. Intelligent dude, good debater, the whole deal. Just apparently wrong most of the time.

313

id369
Yo Kandy.

For team name how about "The Untouchables"?vin

King Kandy
Originally posted by id369
Yo Kandy.

For team name how about "The Untouchables"?vin
I can't think of anything more clever for now, so that'll be the working title.

Starscream M
ya know, tournaments always bring out the best of KMC Vs smile

(and sometimes the worst, but let's hope this isn't one of them) cool

TheKahn
Judging update:

Illadelph
Digi
Badabing
Starscream
Original Smurph
Bentley
plus Batdude and myself.

Also, judges will cast one vote in each match. With an odd number of judges we should avoid any ties, but if a judge thinks its too close to call and a tie or indicision results, we'll go by the totals of the following criteria:

Originality: 0-5
Effectiveness: 0-5
Debating Skill: 0-10

id369
Interesting point system. mhmm

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn


Originality: 0-5
Effectiveness: 0-5
Debating Skill: 0-10 could you elaborate a little bit on why you gave those points? and what you mean by debating skill...ie, doesn't effectiveness cover debating skill or vice versa?

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
could you elaborate a little bit on why you gave those points? and what you mean by debating skill...ie, doesn't effectiveness cover debating skill or vice versa?

This may vary among judges as each will have their own opinions on each, but to me:

Originality:
-how creative a team is in incorporating the different aspects of their team together
-how they use each character to enhance the strengths and diminish the weaknesses of the others
-how they plan to exploit the weaknesses of the other team

Effectiveness:
-how creditable a teams overall plan and battle tactics are (they maybe original and creative but you may not think that the plan will actually work)
-how well do they use the skills/abilities of their characters

Debating Skill:
-self explanatory, basically how well does a team debate
-do they address critical points brought up by opponents or do they ignore them
-do they use evidence (on panel scans) or creditable deductive logic to justify their claims for certain characters.



Again, the point system is in place just in case the judges feel a match is too close to call. Hopefully, we won't have to use it, but people should be aware of it just in case.

TheKahn
******Attention********

For all of those using Lanterns in the tournament, we have an announcement. Power Ring duplication and distribution is legal (I imagine most of you were planning on doing that anyway). The burden is still on you to prove that your non-Lantern character can actually use the rings, however.

I know this might bring up the question of certain characters exceeding the Herald limit. But given the challenge of proving that other characters can use the ring and the other ways I'm sure some of you are planning to mesh each of your team's powers, were going to give people some wiggle room here.

King Kandy
Well if you don't think rings are going to make people exceed the limit, what was the point in banning cyborg superman from having his rings? Under these rules you could attain the same effect anyway. That's silly.

Cyborg with rings=over herald
Cyborg with rings (created during prep)=not over herald somehow?

id369
Not all rings have the ability to duplicate itself.

King Kandy
It was more of a theoretical question.

TheKahn
Originally posted by King Kandy
Well if you don't think rings are going to make people exceed the limit, what was the point in banning cyborg superman from having his rings? Under these rules you could attain the same effect anyway. That's silly.

Cyborg with rings=over herald
Cyborg with rings (created during prep)=not over herald somehow?

I can understand the confusion. During the draft the herald limit was meant to limit the draft pool to a certain level of characters. That is why the few characters that are clearly over the herald limit were banned. We just felt that there were not enough Thanoses, Superboy Primes, Desperoes, etc. to go around.

The problem is that with prep time, I'm sure every team is going to enhance the abilities/power/attributes of every single one of their teammates to the highest level possible. And since we have no clear and authoritative way to judge these enhancements, we have to give people a little more room.

This brought up the question of Lanterns being able to create and distribute rings to their teammates. We decided to allow this as everyone had a chance to draft a Lantern if they wanted to and technically still can. As for Cyborg Superman, I don't believe a power ring will make him more powerful than some of the other power meshes that people will try and use.

Blair Wind
Originally posted by id369
Not all rings have the ability to duplicate itself.

You can't really prove that erm

Hal's done it, Kyle's done it.

How did Sinestro get so many rings for his army?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Blair Wind
You can't really prove that erm

Hal's done it, Kyle's done it.

How did Sinestro get so many rings for his army?
They were produced on Qward no expression

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Blair Wind
You can't really prove that erm

Hal's done it, Kyle's done it.

How did Sinestro get so many rings for his army?

Not to mention the Qwardian rings are for all intents and purposes almost exactly similiar to the Oan ones. Those two rings have more in common functionality wise than the other colored ones, IMO, probably due to them both being toward the center of the emotional spectrum.

TheKahn
Originally posted by id369
Not all rings have the ability to duplicate itself.

As with many other claims, its something one must prove to the judges during the matches.

King Kandy
Originally posted by TheKahn
I can understand the confusion. During the draft the herald limit was meant to limit the draft pool to a certain level of characters. That is why the few characters that are clearly over the herald limit were banned. We just felt that there were not enough Thanoses, Superboy Primes, Desperoes, etc. to go around.

The problem is that with prep time, I'm sure every team is going to enhance the abilities/power/attributes of every single one of their teammates to the highest level possible. And since we have no clear and authoritative way to judge these enhancements, we have to give people a little more room.

This brought up the question of Lanterns being able to create and distribute rings to their teammates. We decided to allow this as everyone had a chance to draft a Lantern if they wanted to and technically still can. As for Cyborg Superman, I don't believe a power ring will make him more powerful than some of the other power meshes that people will try and use.
But the thing is, both drafts and meshing are capped at "herald level". It baffles me how you can have "herald level" apparently mean two different things here. Cyborg Superman w/ rings is over one "herald level", but he isn't over another... it seems like you aren't even following your own rules with any consistency here.

-Pr-
Originally posted by King Kandy
But the thing is, both drafts and meshing are capped at "herald level". It baffles me how you can have "herald level" apparently mean two different things here. Cyborg Superman w/ rings is over one "herald level", but he isn't over another... it seems like you aren't even following your own rules with any consistency here.

the meshing is simply more flexible than the drafting.

psycho gundam
as long as it stays under the limits, duplicating your rings is fine. i guess some feel that hank with all of his rings is over the limit from jump, thus the ban.

jake is just going to make sinestro create a ring for hank anyway.. erm

id369
Originally posted by Blair Wind
You can't really prove that erm

Hal's done it, Kyle's done it.

How did Sinestro get so many rings for his army?
abccoffee
Now is not the time.

TheKahn
Originally posted by King Kandy
But the thing is, both drafts and meshing are capped at "herald level". It baffles me how you can have "herald level" apparently mean two different things here. Cyborg Superman w/ rings is over one "herald level", but he isn't over another... it seems like you aren't even following your own rules with any consistency here.

Because I have a sneaking suspicion that there is going to be a great deal of disagreement on whether or not one team's meshing is above the limit and another team's is not. Are we going to have a multi-page debates over every team's mesh plan to make sure we all reach a consensus that they're under the limit?

Thus we have to give people a little more room with power meshing than we did in the draft. So long as a team doesn't create a neigh-unbeatable team busting character that can win the entire tourney by themselves, I don't know what other standard we could use. If we knew everyone's plan before hand maybe we could approve them all individually, but that just isn't practical.

Personally, I don't think adding power rings to any of these characters makes them over the herald limit (ie it took the Daxamite Green Lantern Sadam Yat possessing the Ion entity just to make him a match for SBP).

This issue just came up or we'd have addressed it earlier. Still, there is ample time for everyone to change their characters/plans if they wish to. I'm sorry if people disagree, but figuring out how to deal with all the possible issues and problems that come up isn't easy. We're dealing with them as fairly as we can. erm

Kris Blaze
Jake was specifically told that he could not have Hank with the rings no expression

It would be akin to drafting Annihilus without the bands and then making a pair for him, thus putting him above the high herald level. It says in the rules that we're not supposed to put 'em above the high herald limit in power meshing, so let's not smile

TheKahn
If everyone wants to ban item duplication that is something we can discuss, otherwise I'm not certain we should cripple the Lanterns esp. if others intend to do something similar with other items of significant power. erm

BTW, we wouldn't have allowed a lot of characters with significantly more abilities, but that is the entire goal of power meshing is it not?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by TheKahn
If everyone wants to ban item duplication that is something we can discuss, otherwise I'm not certain we should cripple the Lanterns esp. if others intend to do something similar with other items of significant power. erm

BTW, we wouldn't have allowed a lot of characters with significantly more abilities, but that is the entire goal of power meshing is it not?
Additional abilities is one thing, but going above the high herald cap is another. A green lantern ring would definitely put anyone who is already in the herald category above it. They've already been given a significant power-up now that they do not have any restrictions on the amount of power that they have.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Additional abilities is one thing, but going above the high herald cap is another. A green lantern ring would definitely put anyone who is already in the herald category above it. They've already been given a significant power-up now that they do not have any restrictions on the amount of power that they have.

It is illegal to give baseline human Lanterns superhuman powers in addition to rings as well?

TheKahn
Since there seems to be some objections here, Batdude and I will discuss this further and attempt to clear up this issue. Everyone else is free to share their opinion on the matter in the meantime. Again, we're not trying to be draconian with decisions, but keep things as fair as possible.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
It is illegal to give baseline human Lanterns superhuman powers in addition to rings as well?
I guess everything's possible as long as they can prove it to the judges. At least that's what I've gathered from Bats and TheKhan.
Originally posted by TheKahn
Since there seems to be some objections here, Batdude and I will discuss this further and attempt to clear up this issue. Everyone else is free to share their opinion on the matter in the meantime. Again, we're not trying to be draconian with decisions, but keep things as fair as possible.
I'm not against ring duplication, just providing certain characters with them. In example giving Henshaw and Superman rings.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I guess everything's possible as long as they can prove it to the judges. At least that's what I've gathered from Bats and TheKhan.

I'm not against ring duplication, just providing certain characters with them. In example giving Henshaw and Superman rings.

Do you honestly think we could get everyone to agree on who can and who cannot have powerups like that? I think we have to be consistent with the rules; either everyone can have a similar powerup or no one can.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I guess everything's possible as long as they can prove it to the judges. At least that's what I've gathered from Bats and TheKhan.

I'm not against ring duplication, just providing certain characters with them. In example giving Henshaw and Superman rings.

I thought vice versa like situation of giving Hal Jordan AS Supes powers in the prep. Is that legal or not?

King Kandy
I asked that when AS Superman got drafted... apparently it's perfectly legal.

-Pr-
it's going to be a pain in the ass to replicate given that he has no access to the fortress.

xJLxKing
Say what?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by TheKahn
Do you honestly think we could get everyone to agree on who can and who cannot have powerups like that? I think we have to be consistent with the rules; either everyone can have a similar powerup or no one can.
You're telling me when you were the one who specifically set High Herald as a cap for power levels. You guys told Jake that henshaw with the rings would not fly, but now it does?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by TheKahn
Do you honestly think we could get everyone to agree on who can and who cannot have powerups like that? I think we have to be consistent with the rules; either everyone can have a similar powerup or no one can. When you have an upper limit for power meshing, then it doesn't matter who agrees on what- you and fatnude get to call what breaches the power cap or not.

Logically, if the power meshing cap is the same limit as the draft cap, then what isn't allowed for one probably shouldn't be allowed for the other, but it's your tournament.

Being consistent with what breaches the limit of "high herald" would probably lead to less arguing over whether plans are legal or not, when teams inevitably try to mesh to the trans level. Otherwise giving "wiggle room" will lead to much confusion over what breaches the meshing cap and what doesn't.

Just my two cents.

id369
I like this moments, you just know teams are aiming to pull off an outlandish prep. Only to back petal, in efforts to defend the legality of their prep and strategy. coffee1

leonidas
yep. so doubt there will be some crazy sh!t attempted. remains to be seen what will be gotten away with . . .

Starscream M
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
It says in the rules that we're not supposed to put 'em above the high herald limit in power meshing, so let's not smile I'm skeptical of how well that will hold up

when you're meshing top tier heralds....it seems inevitable and almost unavoidable that you're end up creating amalgams that surpass the herald level and tiptoe to the skyfather level...and I think that would be true for virtually every team.

we shall see.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm skeptical of how well that will hold up

when you're meshing top tier heralds....it seems inevitable and almost unavoidable that you're end up creating amalgams that surpass the herald level and tiptoe to the skyfather level...and I think that would be true for virtually every team.

we shall see.


Yes, that's the question that has come up. Batdude and I are discussing this problem at the moment. Expect an answer ASAP, there might be a rule change or additional rules put in place to clear up any confusion.

Digi
The easy solution is to get rid of prep. No meshing, pure team debating.

wink

leonidas
Originally posted by Digi
The easy solution is to get rid of prep. No meshing, pure team debating.

wink

yep.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Digi
The easy solution is to get rid of prep. No meshing, pure team debating.

wink that would be an effective solution...except it would prob require a complete redraft or else it would be unfair as many teams prob drafted with power meshing strategies in mind.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Starscream M
that would be an effective solution...except it would prob require a complete redraft or else it would be unfair as many teams prob drafted with power meshing strategies in mind.

Yes, it would (and also makes characters like Zee and Shaman huge liability for blitz tactics, to avoid speedblitz nonsence let's allow "prep is for shielding, information sharing and maybe mindlinking and stuff like that".
That would assume less redrafting and less of blitzfests.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Digi
The easy solution is to get rid of prep. No meshing, pure team debating.

wink

Originally posted by Starscream M
that would be an effective solution...except it would prob require a complete redraft or else it would be unfair as many teams prob drafted with power meshing strategies in mind.

Nothing is easy at this point. no expression

There are a few options on the table at the moment. We'll let everyone know what the situation is as soon as we can.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by TheKahn
Nothing is easy at this point. no expression

There are a few options on the table at the moment. We'll let everyone know what the situation is as soon as we can.

I proposed my version. And if the big fuss is made about ring duplication...I've reminded that power batteries are not allowed, meaning that multiple rings would still be as powerful as one ring...basically dividing one ring (and its charge) into multiple parts. Those lesser rings won't nessesary push anyone into >>>top tier herald class.

Outright power copying is banned, and DNA alteration needs to be proven.
Either that or limit prep to "shielding+mindlinking" to avoid any kind of blitz abuse.

Kris Blaze
I guess it might as well be up to the Judges to determine if the power-meshing puts one of the characters above the high herald limit. The high herald limit is fairly ambiguous anyways. Just a suggestion of course.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
I proposed my version. And if the big fuss is made about ring duplication...I've reminded that power batteries are not allowed, meaning that multiple rings would still be as powerful as one ring...basically dividing one ring (and its charge) into multiple parts. Those lesser rings won't nessesary push anyone into >>>top tier herald class.

Outright power copying is banned, and DNA alteration needs to be proven.
Either that or limit prep to "shielding+mindlinking" to avoid any kind of blitz abuse.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I guess it might as well be up to the Judges to determine if the power-meshing puts one of the characters above the high herald limit. The high herald limit is fairly ambiguous anyways. Just a suggestion of course.

Those are good suggestions. mhmm

Original Smurph
The issue is just ambiguity about how high the limit for power meshing is.

Maybe give a guideline via characters or something that it would be unreasonable for players to become more powerful than?

ie Sentinel, Despero or some such.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Original Smurph
The issue is just ambiguity about how high the limit for power meshing is.

Maybe give a guideline via characters or something that it would be unreasonable for players to become more powerful than?

ie Sentinel, Despero or some such.

If your character can't beat Thanos for the majority after meshing, then he's legal IMO (Despero is lower part of trans tier so I won't put him as cap, there was a lot of arguing that he belongs into high herald tier). Simply as that.

psycho gundam
no one can beat thanos

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by psycho gundam
no one can beat thanos
laughing

I'm just saying Despero is possible cap for meshing, being the lesser being among the trans tiers. If the character becomes Despero's equal, he's OK, superior=too powerful.

-Pr-
as far as ring duplication goes, here are the pages concerning it from Blackest Night #6:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_bn613.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_bn614.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_bn615.jpg

how that applies to the tourney, well...

Kris Blaze
Looks like you need a guardian to do it smile

Philosophía
No you don't. smile

Kris Blaze

-Pr-
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Looks like you need a guardian to do it smile

only if you're not hal, yes.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
"My last act as a Guardian"

Yes.

But it's been done before. Without a guardian.

Kris Blaze

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