Batdude123 and TheKahn's Holiday Herald Tournament

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TheKahn
Teams
- two debaters each

Character Limits
- each team will select three characters for their teams with the top power limit set at the herald-level
- ie no team-busters like Despero or Thanos.
- no characters that are physically invulnerable/indestructible
- no matter manipulation of the opposition's bodies or "speed stealing"
- more limits will be applied as necessary to keep things fair

Draft
- Thursday, Dec 17 2009 at 8:00 pm EST
- Characters will be drafted one at a time
- Teams will need to provide the names of both partners, the name of the character desired, and a link to a bio to secure the character
- Characters will be taken first come, first served

http://thegameworld.com/fb/games/204/fight.PNG

psycho gundam
give me a little more details cause i'm interested

Badabing
If this gets going, it will be moved to the Battlezone Forum.

TheKahn
Originally posted by psycho gundam
give me a little more details cause i'm interested

What do you want to know? smile

JakeTheBank
This sounds pretty cool! I'm interested in this.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by TheKahn
What do you want to know? smile basically, all tournaments come down to how exploitable the rules are, so it's best to start on the hard rules/limitations.

not saying you have to use it, but illadelph's tourney stips are a good framework

Badabing
Digi made some guidelines a while back...

Guide for Tournament Directors

I. Overview
II. Expectations & Gaining Interest
III. Establishing Rules
IV. Drafts
V. Judges
VI. Battles
VII. Final Comments

I. Overview

A lot of people think they have great ideas for tournaments. Some of them are right. Some aren't. But few of those know how to run a tournament well, and the end product is that we have tournaments that fall apart for various reasons, or if they finish they do so in a less-than-efficient manner. This is the product of having participated in, hosted, judged in, or observed nearly every tourney ever run on KMC. Each tourney differs in the details, but a lot can be done to standardize the approach of the director in order to streamline the process.

II. Expectations & Gaining Interest

Expectations:
First and foremost, be prepared to field a ton of PM's, and to send out just as many. It's a thankless task, but you just signed up to take all kinds of crap from participants. If you aren't on every day, and can't see yourself responding to 5-10 PMs a day, and can't maintain steady upkeep for the 3-4 months that most tourneys take, don't do it.

Gaining Interest:
1. Ideally, talk to a mod first. There may already be a tourney in the works, or they may veto your plans for a tourney if there isn't enough thought put into it yet. Next, make an introductory thread. Lay out the general format of the tournament, but leave the particulars open to change and discussion. Gauge interest, pool tentative entrants, and hash out the particulars of the rules.
2. Make a sign-up thread. In the opening post, stress that each participant will have to commit to the tournament, which may include months of drafts and battles. PM those who don't seem as active to ensure their participation. Drop-outs kill tournaments. Do whatever possible to avoid them.
3. Ideally, sign-ups and final rule changes should take 1-2 weeks.

III. Establishing Rules

1. The Obvious: establish what prep time you will have, announce battle locations in advance (ideally) so that players can review them (often, an advantage could be conveyed by some locations that you might not see). Place limits on speed, strength, overall power, energy projection, healing, etc. etc. etc. Also a post count limit for each member who is participating. 10-12 posts per match is probably a reasonable maximum.

Also, an appearance minimum for drafted characters is strongly recommended. As in, don't allow a character who has only ever appeared in 4 comics. If they're being drafted, chances are they have a few great showings and no bad ones. It's hard to fight that sort of thing, or even get a definite power level for them. 10 comics is a safe minimum, though it can be altered at the host's discretion.

2. The Loopholes: listed below are some common loopholes that are used to create power combinations that are far beyond others at a particular power level. Establish a rule for each one, or be prepared to deal with them.
- Duplication: set a limit or ban it outright. Probably shouldn't be around at less than a herald level anyway.
- Constructs/Summoning: similar to duplication, set a limit or ban them outright. You can also make it so that constructs/summons have to be at or below the tourney limits.
- Power copying: this goes for both the draft picks as well as constructs/summons.
- Time Manipulation: usually best to stay away from this entirely. Time travel is a power few would want to see implemented in tourneys.
- Matter Manipulation: Is it allowed on the opposing team? On anything else (weapons, environment, etc.)? Not at all? Again, goes for constructs as well.
- Speed Force: Allow it at your own peril, at any level.
- Information Retention: Do characters retain knowledge from past matches? Particularly important in regards to power copying, but in other ways as well.
- Meshing Limit: Applicable mainly to amalgam tourneys, but also for power amping that can occur between two people. Is it allowed? Can characters be amped beyond tourney limits? Can participants access banned powers through meshes (speed force, matter manip, etc.) or not?
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Some tourneys have said yes, others no, others with the stipulation that they are only valid if they are consistent with the tier/level the character was originally drafted at. No herald feats for street levelers, in other words.
- People will find other loopholes. Count on it. Be ready to make decisions on them. And it doesn't hurt to simply make a "no loophole" clause in the rules, then invoke it to ban a potentially exploitive strategy. Or establish a total power limit, when other specific limits may not cover it.

3. Neutering:
Example: Matter manipulation is banned in this scenario. Let's say a character is drafted who meets all requirements, but can matter manip. The participant asks if they can use the character, just minus any matter manip. powers. You say yes. At this point, a precedent is set that can be dangerous. Let's also say the speed cap is at Mach 10. Now, someone can presumably draft the Flash and have him operating at exactly Mach 10 at all times. That may be an exaggeration, but if allowed, characters can and will be drafted that are beyond the caps. At that point, you give yourself the headache of establishing what is and isn't allowed, but for each character. Far more frustrating and time-consuming than making the rules once. It's also hard to keep judges aware of all of the neutering in such a scenario, so judging might be compromised.

Moral of the story, stay away from this if possible. You'll likely have to be the jerk during drafts, but an all or nothing approach is far better than bending the rules for such draft picks.

4. Don't change rules mid-tourney. It's bad form. Ambiguity may occur and a decision will need to be made, but make sure you let participants know that they should contact you with any "iffy" tactics beforehand to establish a rule on it. In fact, putting something to this affect in a sign-up or draft thread is a great idea. That way, they can't complain if they get ruled against later in the tourney.

IV. Drafts

1. You'll get 10-15 PM's a day concerning potential draft picks (or anger at your decisions). Be ready. This is by far the busiest time for a tourney host.
2. Usually a week is good for each round of drafts, with a day or two in between each draft. Establish a stopping day when you make the thread.
3. People will switch picks to counter the picks of others. Set a final date when picks can no longer be switched out.
4. Allow discussion and disagreement to occur, but stress that it must be kept civil. After a character has been contested for an ample period of time, weigh the evidence and make a decision. Establish it as final once it is made, or more chaos and argument will ensue. Read all posts in the draft threads (or other tourney threads) to make sure you understand each character that is being contested.

V. Judges

This is perhaps the most overlooked aspect of hosting. You need judges. Lots of them. Dedicated ones. Knowledgable ones. And you need to follow up on the judging. Ideally, have a steady rotation of judges so that there aren't just the same 4-5 people judging every match. To do this comfortably, you'll need no less than about 10 potential judges. Some will be more active than others, but as many competent judges as possible should be worked in.

Contact them early. Ideally during early drafts, once you know who isn't participating. Then PM them again when they are to be judging. Let them know to give their vote within no more than 2-3 days after a match ends, and ideally within 24 hours of it ending. One of the most unforeseen methods of slowing a tourney to a crawl are judges who don't vote in a timely manner. 2-3 days is a maximum. Let them know that you expect this, and if they can't do it, thank them for informing you and get a new judge.

VI. Battles

I've found that about 4-5 days is a nice amount of time for a battle. Enough time for participants to get a fair amount of debating in, and it leaves 2-3 days for judging so that you can stay on a roughly week-long cycle. Keeping things moving is key to maintaining momentum and interest. And part of the pressure is on you to keep judges steadily informed of their duties so that things continue to progress. If they aren't judging on time, it slows everything down, and the host is at fault just as much as the negligent judge(s).

Two matches a week is standard. More or less depending on tourney size.

Follow matches at least loosely. Chances are you'll be making 1-2 rulings during the matches themselves. You have to be around often, or else participants may not know if a tactic is legal or not for an entire match. If it isn't, one person's entire match may be for nothing. That kind of frustration makes unhappy participants.

VII. Final Comments

Try to enjoy it. It's a lot of work, but can be rewarding. But be prepared, and be active every day. Those two things are the biggest aspects of running a successful tournament.

The KMC default power level indicators are outlined here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t447826.html
Use these terms to ensure that everyone is on the same page.

Thank you Digi

TheKahn
^^^ We will be using the guidelines above esp the loopholes:

Loopholes
- Duplication: Banned
- Constructs/Summoning: No summoning and only constructs similar to a Green Lantern's are allowable.
- Power copying: Banned
- Time Manipulation: Banned
- Matter Manipulation: Banned on opponents/environment otherwise allowed
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed
- Information Retention: Fighters start with blank memories at the start of each fight (ie they don't remember past fights)
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts (ie no prep)
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Yes, as long as they are consistent with the characters' other showings



Originally posted by psycho gundam
basically, all tournaments come down to how exploitable the rules are, so it's best to start on the hard rules/limitations.

not saying you have to use it, but illadelph's tourney stips are a good framework

no expression I plan on being a hardass about the rules. For example, if you find a technique that enable a one-shot win, guanteed victories, gets you extra fighters, or bends the rules in the least, expect it to be banned.

Again, I don't plan on letting anyone cheat in any sense of the word in this tournament.





ps anyone wishing to be a judge please pm me or Batman123

Blair Wind
Originally posted by TheKahn
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts (ie no prep)



Do you mean Speed Force users are banned, or they are banned from using the speed steal ability?

Also, will there be prep at all?

JakeTheBank
thumb up Sounds cool! I've been on and off the forum for a while, and I look forward to being involved in my first tourney here.

psycho gundam
so no pre-fight preparation? i have no problem with that personally, just asking

TheKahn
Originally posted by Blair Wind
Do you mean Speed Force users are banned, or they are banned from using the speed steal ability?


Why does that question make me nervous coming from you? What the f**k?

For now, we'll allow Speed Force users but anyone planning to draft them and try some sort of shenanigans to get an unfair advantage risk getting the strategy banned. Again, no using it for speed stealing or time manipulation.


wink

Originally posted by psycho gundam
so no pre-fight preparation? i have no problem with that personally, just asking

No prep. Fighters only have general knowledge about their allies and enemies.

psycho gundam
pre-crisis characters?

TheKahn
Originally posted by psycho gundam
pre-crisis characters?

Not a chance in hell. no expression

Sorry, but writers were just a little too lose with feats and hyperbole back then. wink

psycho gundam
Happy Dance

Blair Wind
Originally posted by TheKahn
Why does that question make me nervous coming from you? What the f**k?


Because according to Digi I am:



I'm thinking about judging though, so I may not end up giving you any headaches. stick out tongue

Or maybe a tournament consulting practice. If I decide not to participate, considering the time before drafts and having to find a partner I feel comfortable with, anyone is welcome to PM me for ideas or to help solidify their strategies. That much I can do as I much prefer the strategy aspect of the tournaments over having to write it all up.

TheKahn
We'll try to address as many questions/concerns that we can think of or that anyone wants to ask. So please feel free to ask if anything isn't clear. smile


Just in case anyone is wondering things like BFR to other demensions/planets, reality manipulation, characters able to move minds to an unlimited number of bodies, or intentional environmental destruction (ie creating black holes) are not allowed.

This is meant as a tournament to test your debating skills and battle strategies not to see who can bend the rules the most to win.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Blair Wind
Because according to Digi I am:



I'm thinking about judging though, so I may not end up giving you any headaches. stick out tongue

Or maybe a tournament consulting practice. If I decide not to participate, considering the time before drafts and having to find a partner I feel comfortable with, anyone is welcome to PM me for ideas or to help solidify their strategies. That much I can do.

Either as a judge or competitor, its nice to have you on board. thumb up

TheKahn
After consultation with my esteemed partner, Batman123, we've decided to be generous and allow teams to have 5 minutes of prep before each fight.

For the newer members, keep in mind that creativity and compatibility among your team is going to be critical when going up against some of the veterans. wink

Zeuodin
I need a partner

darthgoober
Is everyone "in character" or are the participants in complete control of their teams?

Charlotte DeBel
I think I need a partner for that thing. No prep tournament is untouched ground for me, but I think I'll be able to do thatsmile

Gundam, would you like to be my partner for this?

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by darthgoober
Is everyone "in character" or are the participants in complete control of their teams?

I also want to know that...

-Pr-
Sounds interesting. Might give it a shot.

Badabing
Originally posted by -Pr-
Sounds interesting. Might give it a shot. ka-dur

-Pr-
Originally posted by Badabing
ka-dur

isn't it past your bedtime?

Badabing
Originally posted by -Pr-
isn't it past your bedtime? Way past. My neck is hurting badly and it woke me up.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Badabing
Way past. My neck is hurting badly and it woke me up.

What time is it?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Badabing
Way past. My neck is hurting badly and it woke me up.

yes, your "neck"

Bentley
Originally posted by -Pr-
yes, your "neck"

If you hide part of it, it looks like a neck.

When are you going to be doing the tourney? I would like to know if I'm going to have internet or not so much.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Bentley
If you hide part of it, it looks like a neck.

When are you going to be doing the tourney? I would like to know if I'm going to have internet or not so much.

It will be spread over the Holiday break and probably go into the new year a bit.

The first of three round of the draft will start this Thursday at 8pm EST (12/17/09) and each round of the draft will last about a week. After that well set up the brackets depending on how many teams enter. smile

TheKahn
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
I think I need a partner for that thing. No prep tournament is untouched ground for me, but I think I'll be able to do thatsmile

Gundam, would you like to be my partner for this?

Since its the holiday season, we've decided to be generous and give each team 5 minutes of prep before each fight.

Charlotte DeBel
Does separating one's body into multiple parts that are able to act separateley yet controlled by one mind is legal (Metamorpho as an example)?

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by TheKahn
Since its the holiday season, we've decided to be generous and give each team 5 minutes of prep before each fight.

Wow. That makes that sooo much bettersmile

TheKahn
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Does separating one's body into multiple parts that are able to act separateley yet controlled by one mind is legal (Metamorpho as an example)?

Let me confer with my co-host about that and the question about individuals fighting in character, and I'll get back to you asap. We're tying to walk a fine line between keeping things fair and giving clever debaters enough flexibility so that they can come up with original strategies. smile

batdude123
Originally posted by Bentley
If you hide part of it, it looks like a neck.

Bada has a really short "neck."

TheKahn
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Does separating one's body into multiple parts that are able to act separateley yet controlled by one mind is legal (Metamorpho as an example)?

Its been decided that a character may separate itself into a total of no more than 3 seperate parts that are controled by one mind.


Originally posted by darthgoober
Is everyone "in character" or are the participants in complete control of their teams?

No one will be handicapped by morality in this tournament. Bloodlust for ALL!!! evil face







p.s. As new questions are asked and answered, we'll be sure to post a more comprehensive list of rules in this thread before the draft. So, if you're uncertain about anything, just ask. smile

illadelph12
Originally posted by Blair Wind
Because according to Digi I am:



I'm thinking about judging though, so I may not end up giving you any headaches. stick out tongue

Or maybe a tournament consulting practice. If I decide not to participate, considering the time before drafts and having to find a partner I feel comfortable with, anyone is welcome to PM me for ideas or to help solidify their strategies. That much I can do as I much prefer the strategy aspect of the tournaments over having to write it all up.

If I had more time on my hands we could have formed the Unholy Alliance and competed.

I'm open to judging though.

TheKahn
Originally posted by illadelph12
If I had more time on my hands we could have formed the Unholy Alliance and competed.

I'm open to judging though.

Excellent evil face

xJLxKing
Originally posted by batdude123
Bada has a really short "neck." laughing out loud

The Nuul
Originally posted by batdude123
Bada has a really short "weiner."


eek!

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Gundam, would you like to be my partner for this? yes i'm pretty sure we know exactly what to do without saying it

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Badabing
Way past. My neck is hurting badly and it woke me up. i bet with a hair caught in your throat also.... knowwhatimsayin

AlmightyKfish
Hmm, I'd be up for this, need to find a partner though... mmm

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Hmm, I'd be up for this, need to find a partner though... mmm
Zeuodin was asking for one, I'm going into that with Gundam.

So you and Zeuodin can team up...Not to mention quite asinine (for us Europeans) draft time (midnight your timezone, 2 AM mine). Europeans MUST have American teammates in this thing.

Kris Blaze
I would nvr team up with Zueodin.

Doesn't seem like a long term plan, considering.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I would nvr team up with Zueodin.

Doesn't seem like a long term plan, considering.

Since I tend to do most of the work myself, my only concern about teammate is that he should be American to post draft picks for me. As for Gundam...we've teamed up several times and he's nice guy to work with.

-Pr-
Probably won't be competing in this. If i did, i honestly wouldn't sit down and research, so most of it would come from memory alone, with maybe the odd scan to help my argument. Just want to wish Batdude and Kahn all the best. These tourneys are exactly the kind i wish we had more of on kmc...

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Zeuodin was asking for one, I'm going into that with Gundam.

So you and Zeuodin can team up...Not to mention quite asinine (for us Europeans) draft time (midnight your timezone, 2 AM mine). Europeans MUST have American teammates in this thing.

Ye Gods, I didn't notice the draft time D:

Yeah, an American teammate is pretty vital.

Digi
At first I thought this was the new name for the off-topic thread.

Anyway, I haven't read anything here yet, but if this is for real I'll be happy to read up on the rules and be a judge. PM me if you need me.

smile

The Nuul
Originally posted by Digi
At first I thought this was the new name for the off-topic thread.


Yeah, I did also.....embarrasment

TheKahn
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Ye Gods, I didn't notice the draft time D:

Yeah, an American teammate is pretty vital.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Zeuodin was asking for one, I'm going into that with Gundam.

So you and Zeuodin can team up...Not to mention quite asinine (for us Europeans) draft time (midnight your timezone, 2 AM mine). Europeans MUST have American teammates in this thing.

What the f**k?

So they don't sell alarm clocks in Europe?








stick out tongue
Each round of the draft will last for a few days so you don't have to pick first thing (although it can't hurt). Personally, I'd just copy a message with the required info (name of both teammates, name of character, and a link to a bio of the character) and paste it quickly if you are concerned about getting a certain person. shifty

psycho gundam
is low herald the draft power limit, or is it high herald?

batdude123
Originally posted by psycho gundam
is low herald the draft power limit, or is it high herald?

High.

TheKahn
Originally posted by psycho gundam
is low herald the draft power limit, or is it high herald?

We are going with the higher herald limits. So, for example, Silver Surfer and below is in. However characters that are clearly above herald level or are major league team wreckers like Thanos, Ion, Warrior Madness Thor, Despero, Superboy Prime, Parallax, etc are banned.

TheKahn
Originally posted by batdude123
High.

What he said. thumb up

JakeTheBank
*has good idea of who to draft...*

Well, it certainly looks to be shaping up pretty nicely.

TheKahn
Oh, if anyone want to clear a questionable character before the draft, just send a PM to Batman123 or myself we will let you know beforehand so you don't waste any time. smile

King Kandy
Originally posted by Zeuodin
I need a partner
I'll partner with you. wink

id369
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'll partner with you. wink



The [email protected]? I thought we where tournament buddies!gwahhttp://starlockforfreedom.bravepages.com/kmcsigsandavs/idtest2send.jpg

King Kandy
Oh yeah, good point. OK then nvrmind. If you want to team up again, i'm up for it.

batdude123
There's no way I'm letting him participate after insulting me. uhuh

TheKahn
Originally posted by batdude123
There's no way I'm letting him participate after insulting me. uhuh

Come on. 'Tis the season to be magnanimous after all. wink

id369

King Kandy
No, i'm serious. I'd much rather team up with you than Zeuodin.

id369
Originally posted by King Kandy
No, i'm serious. I'd much rather team up with you than Zeuodin. I would but I have online responsibilities and its sucking up my free time.


No BS, Modding a forum sucks.
http://forums.narutofan.com/showgroups.php?

And I joined a scanlation group.
http://junkshoppe.no.sapo.pt/epg/gss.htm

id369
Screw it I am in. yep

King Kandy
Awesome.

Sorry Zeuodin. Though I doubt you'll last long enough to see this through anyway.

psycho gundam
lolz @ the blatant showing of disrespect

Zeuodin
Originally posted by King Kandy
Awesome.

Sorry Zeuodin. Though I doubt you'll last long enough to see this through anyway.
Why wouldn't I last? Should the tourney last more than a day or two? It's like a battlezone right?

Starscream M
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Why wouldn't I last? Should the tourney last more than a day or two? It's like a battlezone right? you still need a partner first

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Why wouldn't I last? Should the tourney last more than a day or two? It's like a battlezone right?

Because a lot of people here seem to think you suck as a poster, I'm not saying that it's my opnion too and no offense intended, just from what I've read here

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Because a lot of people here seem to think you suck as a poster, I'm not saying that it's my opnion too and no offense intended, just from what I've read here Oh. That doesn't bother me. Not when There are others here far worse than I. I find myself somewhere comfortable in the middle.

Omega Vision
I suppose I'd be fine teaming up with Zeuodin but I'm not sure yet if I'll do this.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I suppose I'd be fine teaming up with Zeuodin but I'm not sure yet if I'll do this.
Just team up with me. If you have to drop, Or I have to drop, we can just make sure at least one of us is around to argue.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Just team up with me. If you have to drop, Or I have to drop, we can just make sure at least one of us is around to argue.
KK.

Zeuodin
Originally posted by TheKahn
^^^ We will be using the guidelines above esp the loopholes:

Loopholes
- Duplication: Banned
- Constructs/Summoning: No summoning and only constructs similar to a Green Lantern's are allowable.
- Power copying: Banned
- Time Manipulation: Banned
- Matter Manipulation: Banned on opponents/environment otherwise allowed
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed
- Information Retention: Fighters start with blank memories at the start of each fight (ie they don't remember past fights)
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts (ie no prep)
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Yes, as long as they are consistent with the characters' other showings





no expression I plan on being a hardass about the rules. For example, if you find a technique that enable a one-shot win, guanteed victories, gets you extra fighters, or bends the rules in the least, expect it to be banned.

Again, I don't plan on letting anyone cheat in any sense of the word in this tournament.





ps anyone wishing to be a judge please pm me or Batman123
Does this mean I can't draft Superman and have Monica Rambeau Pump him full of Solar light in the first second of the fight?

Ha_Son
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Does this mean I can't draft Superman and have Monica Rambeau Pump him full of Solar light in the first second of the fight?
It does.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Does this mean I can't draft Superman and have Monica Rambeau Pump him full of Solar light in the first second of the fight?

We've decided to give teams 5 minutes of prep before each fight and as far as power meshing goes, as long as it doesn't clearly make a character above herald level - its allowable.

Again, we're trying to walk a fine line between keeping things fair and allowing people to be creative with how they assemble and use their team. If you have a question about a specific character or technique please feel free to PM either Batdude123 and myself. smile

TheKahn
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Does this mean I can't draft Superman and have Monica Rambeau Pump him full of Solar light in the first second of the fight?

Assuming you draft both characters, I'm inclined to allow something like this. It may give one character an advantage in terms of their regular abilities but it is certainly not impossible to plan for or counter given the power-levels/abilities of allowable characters available to other teams.


Mainly, we are looking to avoid people coming up with cheap one-shot wins where all real debating is rendered moot because they were able to exploit an unforeseen loophole. Other than that, creative power meshing is actually encouraged and is probably going to be necessary to make it all the way through the tourney. shifty

King Kandy
So I take it characters like super adaptoid/absorbing man/space phantom are banned via the power copying rule?

Zeuodin
Originally posted by King Kandy
So I take it characters like super adaptoid/absorbing man/space phantom are banned via the power copying rule?
Since when does Absorbing man copy powers? He absorbs stuff he touches. That isn't the same thing.

TheKahn
Originally posted by King Kandy
So I take it characters like super adaptoid/absorbing man/space phantom are banned via the power copying rule?

Essentially, yes. You can go ahead and add in Amazo (just in case anyone was wondering) to the banned list.

The reason is that more "creative" individuals in past debates have used characters like that to create duplicate armies of characters to take down the opposing team (ingenious - yes, but not exactly fair). no expression

iceman24567
Aww man erm

TheKahn
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Since when does Absorbing man copy powers? He absorbs stuff he touches. That isn't the same thing.

IIRC, hasn't he mimicked Thor's strength before? confused

TheKahn
Originally posted by iceman24567
Aww man erm

Don't be too down. While those tactics/powersets aren't allowed, I assure you that there are a great deal of ways to mesh characters powers and stay within the rules....you just have to think outside the box a little shifty

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by TheKahn
IIRC, hasn't he mimicked Thor's strength before? confused
He can also absorb strength if you punch him.

iceman24567
Can't use Vixen i suppose?

TheKahn
Originally posted by iceman24567
Can't use Vixen i suppose?

The typical version of Vixen that's attached to the Red and mimics animal powers - yes
The temporary version where the God Anansi messed up her power allowing her to copy metapowers - no

iceman24567
I'm just figuring out ways to cheat i should be ashamed of myself but I'm not smile

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
Essentially, yes. You can go ahead and add in Amazo (just in case anyone was wondering) to the banned list.

The reason is that more "creative" individuals in past debates have used characters like that to create duplicate armies of characters to take down the opposing team (ingenious - yes, but not exactly fair). no expression
That was me big grin ...

TheKahn
Originally posted by iceman24567
I'm just figuring out ways to cheat i should be ashamed of myself but I'm not smile

If you're not pushing the limits, then you're not trying hard enough. wink


Actually with all the Kryptonians, Daxamites, Lantern Corps, and the recent cosmic events in Marvel, I'm really looking forward to seeing the kinds of teams people put together and how they use them. hmm

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
That was me big grin ...

And it was a brilliant tactic as evidenced by the rules needing to be changed because of it. wink

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
And it was a brilliant tactic as evidenced by the rules needing to be changed because of it. wink
Are there going to be any other limitations on "instant tech"? Given the popularity of the tactic and certain people knowing how to create stuff like the Miracle Machine you might want to set some guidelines on what's allowed in that area...

leonidas
hmm, i might be willing to team with someone if THEY are willing to do most of the work! big grin

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i might be willing to team with someone if THEY are willing to do most of the work! big grin ...where's scoobless? you guys make a great team wink

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
Are there going to be any other limitations on "instant tech"? Given the popularity of the tactic and certain people knowing how to create stuff like the Miracle Machine you might want to set some guidelines on what's allowed in that area...

Good point. I'm willing to allow some creation of tech during prep time provided that:
1. the team actually has the knowlege and abilty to create it
2. the possession of such tech does not push any individual or team past the herald limit (ie reality manipulation on any level, time manipulation, altering physical laws, etc)

But if you wanted to create a battle suit or armor for a less durable character, that's perfectly acceptable (and probably a good idea anyway)

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i might be willing to team with someone if THEY are willing to do most of the work! big grin

Hmmmm, how much is most?

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
Good point. I'm willing to allow some creation of tech during prep time provided that:
1. the team actually has the knowlege and abilty to create it
2. the possession of such tech does not push any individual or team past the herald limit (ie reality manipulation on any level, time manipulation, altering physical laws, etc)

But if you wanted to create a battle suit or armor for a less durable character, that's perfectly acceptable (and probably a good idea anyway)
What about those characters who already represent the "pinnacle" of the Herald tier? I mean if the cap is guys like Supes, Thor, GL, and Surfer then wouldn't pretty much ANY improvement on those characters put them beyond the cap if the cap for both the drafting and the "final products" during the match is "herald level"?

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
What about those characters who already represent the "pinnacle" of the Herald tier? I mean if the cap is guys like Supes, Thor, GL, and Surfer then wouldn't pretty much ANY improvement on those characters put them beyond the cap if the cap for both the drafting and the "final products" during the match is "herald level"?

I understand what you're saying, but I think there is a clear gap between say the Silver Surfer and Thanos (or Superman and Superboy Prime) that not even a significant boost can close.

Keep in mind that teams will be limited by time, resources, lack of experience with new powers, and each character's personal weaknesses when trying to mesh their powers before each fight. Plus the other team will be actively trying to diminish to altogether counter any boost or strategy you manage to come up with. So I think it will all even out.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by TheKahn
IIRC, hasn't he mimicked Thor's strength before? confused and iirc mjolnir's properties

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by psycho gundam
and iirc mjolnir's properties
By absorbing the properties through touch, not copying.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
By absorbing the properties through touch, not copying.

Still, its close enough that banning him along with all the other power absorber/copiers will make it easier on everyone and avoid any complaints in the future, imo. Sorry, but that's just one powerset that causes way too many problems.

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
I understand what you're saying, but I think there is a clear gap between say the Silver Surfer and Thanos (or Superman and Superboy Prime) that not even a significant boost can close.

Keep in mind that teams will be limited by time, resources, lack of experience with new powers, and each character's personal weaknesses when trying to mesh their powers before each fight. Plus the other team will be actively trying to diminish to altogether counter any boost or strategy you manage to come up with. So I think it will all even out.
Ok cool.

BTW you said before that "in character" is off in terms of killing, but what about things like team work? I mean if I were to draft Loki and Thor, would they stay true to form of past encounters, or will they trust each other wholeheartedly with their deepest secrets and be willing to sacrifice themselves for the other without a second thought?

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok cool.

BTW you said before that "in character" is off in terms of killing, but what about things like team work? I mean if I were to draft Loki and Thor, would they stay true to form of past encounters, or will they trust each other wholeheartedly with their deepest secrets and be willing to sacrifice themselves for the other without a second thought?

We're giving the debaters full control over their characters' personalities. If you want Superman going for the kill - he'll do it. If you want Thor and Loki to work together seamlessly - they will. So you won't be handicapped by the personalities (good or bad) of whoever you pick. evil face

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
We're giving the debaters full control over their characters' personalities. If you want Superman going for the kill - he'll do it. If you want Thor and Loki to work together seamlessly - they will. So you won't be handicapped by the personalities (good or bad) of whoever you pick. evil face
Cool...

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by darthgoober
I came

Zeuodin
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
By absorbing the properties through touch, not copying. I think touch is much different than copying. Cuz if you were to put Amazo Up against, Absorbing Man, Amazo would kick his ass.

Newjak
Originally posted by TheKahn
We're giving the debaters full control over their characters' personalities. If you want Superman going for the kill - he'll do it. If you want Thor and Loki to work together seamlessly - they will. So you won't be handicapped by the personalities (good or bad) of whoever you pick. evil face TheKahn is back eek!

How's it going man

TheKahn
Originally posted by Newjak
TheKahn is back eek!

How's it going man

big grin
Its going great. Happy to be back.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Zeuodin
I think touch is much different than copying. Cuz if you were to put Amazo Up against, Absorbing Man, Amazo would kick his ass.
Exactly. Absorbing Man can't turn into advanced technology, he'd just turn into the metal Amazo was made out of.

id369
I have two questions.

Can we draft manga characters? and is it possible to reserve a few characters? You know kind like draft 3, and keep 2 more on the side.

This way one or two characters can be switched in, and out for strategic purpose.

JakeTheBank
Not sure if this has been asked, but I am correct in assuming all characters drafted to be mainstream continuity versions of themselves? ie. New Earth, Post-Crisis DC characters and 616 Marvel characters?

TheKahn
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not sure if this has been asked, but I am correct in assuming all characters drafted to be mainstream continuity versions of themselves? ie. New Earth, Post-Crisis DC characters and 616 Marvel characters?

thumb up

Yes, although you are not limited to just Marvel and DC comic characters so long as
-you provide an up-to-date bio
-they don't exceed the herald limit and/or don't have any banned abilities.
-and they are the mainstream continuity versions of the characters

Originally posted by id369
I have two questions.

Can we draft manga characters? and is it possible to reserve a few characters? You know kind like draft 3, and keep 2 more on the side.

This way one or two characters can be switched in, and out for strategic purpose.

1. Sorry, but were limiting it to comic book characters just to keep things a little simpler (esp. for the judges) and hopefully make sure all competitors are somewhat familiar with the characters they'll be drafting and facing.

2. I'm afraid that might make it a little too difficult for opponents to actually plan a strategy for the other team. Plus the limit of three characters makes who you select and how you use them all the more vital.

TheKahn
And just so everyone is clear:
There will be 3 rounds of drafting where the teams will select one character per round. In each battle all 3 selected characters will fight as a group against the other teams' 3 fighters.

The first round of the draft will be Thursday, Dec. 17 at 8pm EST, and will remain open a few days until the beginning of the second round of drafting. And so on. People will be allowed to switch-out characters (if they so choose) until the start of the tournament.

Once all three rounds of drafting are done, we'll put together a schedule and let all the teams know who and when they'll be fighting. smile

Charlotte DeBel
Is the prep area some abstract lab or something or are teams allowed to use their "home turfs" for prep areas?

TheKahn
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Is the prep area some abstract lab or something or are teams allowed to use their "home turfs" for prep areas?

Each team will have access to a "team lounge" measuring 15x15 meters with a couple of couches, satellite tv, refrigerator, washroom, and an assortment of snacks and drinks prior to each fight where they can use their prep time.

Characters don't get to bring any equipment from home other than what they typically carry. For example, a Green Lantern obviously gets to bring his or her power ring, but Reed Richards can't bring along the ultimate nullifer or anything else he has stowed away in his lab.

id369
Green Lantern Ring's is an obvious standard item. What about a Green Lanterns Power Battery, can a GL accesses it?

TheKahn
Originally posted by id369
Green Lantern Ring's is an obvious standard item. What about a Green Lanterns Power Battery, can a GL accesses it?

No, but any Lantern used will start each fight with a 100% charge.

id369
Even for characters such as Sinestro or Kyle, who carry their battery in pocket space?

http://i47.tinypic.com/15q89q8.gif

TheKahn
Originally posted by id369
Even for characters such as Sinestro or Kyle, who carry their battery in pocket space?

Yes, even then. Besides, Kyle still has a piece of Parallax in his battery and I really don't want to open that can of worms concern semi-standard equipment. erm

Charlotte DeBel
About PMs. I'll be off after aprox. 6 PM EST today, feel free to PM the answers to my questions to Gundam if you won't be able to consult Bada before that time.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
About PMs. I'll be off after aprox. 6 PM EST today, feel free to PM the answers to my questions to Gundam if you won't be able to consult Bada before that time.

Batdude, of course...dur at me and my headache.

JakeTheBank
Will the setting for each fight be the same through out the tournament or will it be randomly detirmined? Also, will said setting be revealed prior to the tournament starting or after sign up is complete?

TheKahn
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Will the setting for each fight be the same through out the tournament or will it be randomly detirmined? Also, will said setting be revealed prior to the tournament starting or after sign up is complete?

I'll think we'll go with unique settings for each fight which will be announced at the start of each round just to make things a little more "interesting" shifty

But don't worry, we're not going to handicap anyone with the settings (ie Superman won't have to fight under a red sun or anything like that) wink

Newjak
Originally posted by TheKahn
I'll think we'll go with unique settings for each fight which will be announced at the start of each round just to make things a little more "interesting" shifty

But don't worry, we're not going to handicap anyone with the settings (ie Superman won't have to fight under a red sun or anything like that) wink I think you should do something like that for the laughs. big grin

xJLxKing
So is this Tournament happening? when?

id369
Originally posted by TheKahn
Yes, even then. Besides, Kyle still has a piece of Parallax in his battery and I really don't want to open that can of worms concern semi-standard equipment. erm


http://i47.tinypic.com/15q89q8.gif


What about Lobo and his bike? Does he get his bike?

TheKahn
Originally posted by xJLxKing
So is this Tournament happening? when?

First round of the draft will be tonight at 8pm EST and last a few days. The same for rounds two and three. Once teams are determined will send out a schedule for the fights.

TheKahn
Originally posted by id369


What about Lobo and his bike? Does he get his bike?

Yes, I think Lobo uses his bike enough for it to be considered standard equipment. wink


Although the main man doesn't get his immortality/death reviving healing factor. If he gets taken down once, he's down for the rest of the fight. smokin'

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
First round of the draft will be tonight at 8pm EST and last a few days. The same for rounds two and three. Once teams are determined will send out a schedule for the fights.
I'm bad with time zones, how long is the first draft from now?

id369
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm bad with time zones, how long is the first draft from now?

Ditto.

And will draft take place in a separate thread?

Originally posted by TheKahn
Yes, I think Lobo uses his bike enough for it to be considered standard equipment. wink


Although the main man doesn't get his immortality/death reviving healing factor. If he gets taken down once, he's down for the rest of the fight. smokin'

What? His immortality and regen is neutered!
http://i47.tinypic.com/15q89q8.gif

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm bad with time zones, how long is the first draft from now?

2 hrs 55 minutes if my time conversations are right.

Badabing
Originally posted by TheKahn
First round of the draft will be tonight at 8pm EST and last a few days. The same for rounds two and three. Once teams are determined will send out a schedule for the fights. Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm bad with time zones, how long is the first draft from now?

http://www.americantimezones.com/

Anything else? sneer

psycho gundam
where's the server for this site? it's an hour ahead of eastern time.

Badabing
Originally posted by psycho gundam
where's the server for this site? it's an hour ahead of eastern time. Don't know or care. I just wanted to mess with Goober. embarrasment

biscuits

batdude123
Originally posted by TheKahn
Although the main man doesn't get his immortality/death reviving healing factor. If he gets taken down once, he's down for the rest of the fight. smokin'

This rule would also apply to any version of Doomsday, if someone just so happened to pick him.

-----------------------------

Also, it's 4:25 pm EST as of right now. You guys have three and a half hours to get your shit together.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Badabing
Don't know or care. I just wanted to mess with Goober. embarrasment

biscuits
Yeah...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm bad with time zones, how long is the first draft from now?

stick out tongue




Originally posted by batdude123
This rule would also apply to any version of Doomsday, if someone just so happened to pick him.

-----------------------------

Also, it's 4:25 pm EST as of right now. You guys have three and a half hours to get your shit together.
Cool...

KuRuPT Thanosi
Who is participating as this sounds interesting. Good luck guys

JakeTheBank
I'll be needing a partner if anyone is interested...

TheKahn
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'll be needing a partner if anyone is interested...

Since some people might still be struggling to find a partner, I'm inclined to allow people to enter the first round of the draft without one (just leave the "partner" section of the submission blank). If two people who drafted characters in round one decide to join together, then they will be limited to the first character either one picked chronologically (ie no merging of round one picks onto the same team). If you can't find a partner by round two, you forfeit the pick and he/she is then available to everyone else.

That is, as long as my co-host Batdude123 is agreeable.

leonidas
Originally posted by TheKahn
That is, as long as my co-host Batdude123 is agreeable.

have you met batdude? no expression

Zeuodin
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'll be needing a partner if anyone is interested... Try almighty. I don't think he has one.

TheKahn
We have less than an hour and a half until the first round of the draft (8pm EST), I thought I'd post an update of the rules of the tournament:

Teams: 2 debators using 3 characters per fight

Power Limit - High herald level

Prep - 5 minutes prior to each fight in a well stocked lounge adjacent to the battle field. No extending of that prep time via artificial means (ie speed force or time manipulation).

Equipment - Characters are allowed to carry only what they normally have in their possession. For example a Green Lantern get his/her ring but Reed Richards can't go back to his lab for the ultimate nullifer or anything else.

Special restrictions:

- Power Duplication: Banned
- Power copying: Banned
- Constructs/Summoning: No summoning and only constructs similar to a Green Lantern's are allowable.
- Time Manipulation: Banned
- Matter Manipulation: Banned on opponents and environment-large scale (ie no turning the entire planet into swiss cheese) otherwise allowed
Reality Manipulation - Banned
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed or extending prep time, otherwise speed force characters are allowed
- Information Retention: Fighters start with blank memories at the start of each fight (ie they don't remember past fights)
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts or in prep time
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Yes, as long as they are consistent with the characters' other showings
- Magic users are allowed, so long as they obey the rest of the limits
- No immortality or physically indestrucible characters and no charcters able to continiously transfer their consciousness to an endless number of bodies - one death = out of the fight.

- Additional limits may be placed as new issues come up. If you are uncertain about any character/tactic please feel free to pm Batdude or myself about it before you use it. smile



Drafting:
Each round will last a few days, so don't worry if you aren't first (there are plenty of characters to go around).
Characters will be drafted one per round on a first come first served basis. To draft a character please include your name and that of your partner, the character's name, and a link to a current bio.

sample draft post:

Failure to include all information will result in you not securing the character and the possibility that someone else may take him/her.

Good sites for Bios
DC:
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
Marvel:
http://marvel.wikia.com/Main_Page
both:
http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.comicvine.com/

TheKahn
Originally posted by leonidas
have you met batdude? no expression


You're not helping! stick out tongue

TheKahn
Currently 7pm EST. One hour until the draft. smile

leonidas
Originally posted by TheKahn
You're not helping! stick out tongue

have you met ME? no expression

heh

Zeuodin
Originally posted by TheKahn
We have less than an hour and a half until the first round of the draft (8pm EST), I thought I'd post an update of the rules of the tournament:

Teams: 2 debators using 3 characters per fight

Power Limit - High herald level

Prep - 5 minutes prior to each fight in a well stocked lounge adjacent to the battle field. No extending of that prep time via artificial means (ie speed force or time manipulation).

Equipment - Characters are allowed to carry only what they normally have in their possession. For example a Green Lantern get his/her ring but Reed Richards can't go back to his lab for the ultimate nullifer or anything else.

Special restrictions:

- Power Duplication: Banned
- Power copying: Banned
- Constructs/Summoning: No summoning and only constructs similar to a Green Lantern's are allowable.
- Time Manipulation: Banned
- Matter Manipulation: Banned on opponents and environment-large scale (ie no turning the entire planet into swiss cheese) otherwise allowed
Reality Manipulation - Banned
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed or extending prep time, otherwise speed force characters are allowed
- Information Retention: Fighters start with blank memories at the start of each fight (ie they don't remember past fights)
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts or in prep time
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Yes, as long as they are consistent with the characters' other showings
- Magic users are allowed, so long as they obey the rest of the limits

- Additional limits may be placed as new issues come up. If you are uncertain about any character/tactic please feel free to pm Batdude or myself about it before you use it. smile



Drafting:
Each round will last a few days, so don't worry if you aren't first (there are plenty of characters to go around).
Characters will be drafted one per round on a first come first served basis. To draft a character please include your name and that of your partner, the character's name, and a link to a current bio.

sample draft post:

Failure to include all information will result in you not securing the character and the possibility that someone else may take him/her.

Good sites for Bios
DC:
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
Marvel:
http://marvel.wikia.com/Main_Page
both:
http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.comicvine.com/
So how are the teams determined for drafting order.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Zeuodin
So how are the teams determined for drafting order.

First to make a proper draft entry gets the character.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by TheKahn
Currently 7pm EST. One hour until the draft. smile is there a thread for this being made or is it right here?

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