Draft Round 3: Batdude123 and TheKahn's Holiday Herald Tournament

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TheKahn
Power Limit
- High herald level

Prep Time:
- Each team will have access to a "team lounge" measuring 15x15 meters with a couple of couches, satellite tv, refrigerator, washroom, and an assortment of snacks and drinks for 5 minutes prior to each fight where they can use their prep time. . No extending of that prep time via any means (ie speed force or time manipulation).

Equipment:
- Characters are allowed to carry only what they normally have in their possession. For example a Green Lantern get his/her ring but Reed Richards can't go back to his lab for the ultimate nullifer or anything else.

Special restrictions:
- Power Duplication: Banned
- Power copying: Banned
- Constructs/Summoning: No summoning and only constructs similar to a Green Lantern's are allowable.
- Time Manipulation: Banned
- Matter Manipulation: Banned on opponents and environment-large scale (ie no turning the entire planet into swiss cheese) otherwise allowed
Reality Manipulation - Banned
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed or extending prep time, otherwise speed force characters are allowed
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts or in prep time
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Yes, as long as they are consistent with the characters' other showings
- Magic users are allowed, so long as they obey the rest of the limits
- No immortality or physically indestrucible characters and no charcters able to continiously transfer their consciousness to an endless number of bodies - one death = out of the fight.
- no teleportation
- no tech creation that has the potential to raise any team/character above the herald limit


Trade Round:
After the third draft round is over and before the actual battles start, we are going to have a "character trade" thread. This means that if one team desires to have a character from another team on their side, they must offer one of their choices as a trade in order to get him.


Drafting Format:
One person will debate for one character on a given team, the other person will debate for the 2nd character, and then they can both use/share the last character for debating.

That means both debaters will have to declare who they are going to be debating with. However, this does not have to be determined/announced until after the drafting and trade rounds are finished.


----------------------------------------------------

Confirmed Teams and Drafted Characters


Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom

Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman

Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Nate Grey


---------------------------------------------------

Teams will be allowed to add/drop characters until the start of the Trade Round which is scheduled for 12pm EST, Saturday Dec. 26. until Sunday Dec. 27 at Midnight. Matches will begin on Monday Dec. 28

-Pr-
Team Philosophia and -Pr- chooses J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter

JakeTheBank
Team JaketheBank and TBA partner draft Eric Lensherr/Magnus/Max Eisenhardt http://marvel.com/universe/Magneto

leonidas
galan and leo take atrocitus.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Atrocitus_(New_Earth)

King Kandy
Team Kandy/Id draft Onslaught (before he absorbed x-man and franklin):

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/o/onslaught.htm

Blair Wind
Blair Wind/Darthgoober choose Eradicator:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradicator_(comics)

Kris Blaze
Team Winter(Sex Blaze and KM) drafts Classic Adam Warlock: http://marvel.com/universe/Warlock,_Adam

TheKahn
All picks so far are approved.

JakeTheBank
Dropping Magnus in favor for Infinity Man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity-Man

Martian_mind
Originally posted by -Pr-
Team Philosophia and -Pr- chooses J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter

Ladies and gentlemen, the winners of this tournament.

Also, lulz at Infinity man.

The Nuul
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Ladies and gentlemen, the winners of this tournament.

Also, lulz at Infinity man.

Why lulz at Infinity man, whats wrong with him?

The Nuul
Good picks again.

King Kandy
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Dropping Magnus in favor for Infinity Man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity-Man
Are you kidding me? He is way too powerful for this tourney.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by King Kandy
Are you kidding me? He is way too powerful for this tourney.

Excluding DOTNG and Pre-Crisis?

King Kandy
In that case, I don't know. Though it's almost like you can say "I'm drafting LT, but I just won't use any of his high showings"... just a little bit silly.

TheKahn
Infinity Man is being discussed. Does anyone else have any other thoughts?

King Kandy
Warlock can instant-kill anyone with soul suck independent of their level of power.

TheKahn
Originally posted by King Kandy
Warlock can instant-kill anyone with soul suck independent of their level of power.

Soul absorption/trapping is an exotic form of BFR in my opinion (esp. since the power is so rare it is neigh-impossible to plan for and counter even at the Herald level). As such, no one should plan on using it in the tourney. no expression

Digi
Originally posted by King Kandy
Warlock can instant-kill anyone with soul suck independent of their level of power.

Depends on whether or not he has the gem. And despite his connection to it, I'm not sure we should include an Infinity Gem in anyone's standard equipment.

psycho gundam
team psycho charlotte is drafting Samuel L. Jackson not holding back.....err earth-9 superMAN

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Harvey_Dent_(Earth-9)

id369
Originally posted by TheKahn
Soul absorption/trapping is an exotic form of BFR in my opinion (esp. since the power is so rare it is neigh-impossible to plan for and counter even at the Herald level). As such, no one should plan on using it in the tourney. no expression mhmm

If only manga characters where allowed, I know a Mage that can neutralize Soul [email protected]

Digi
Yeah, just stipulate no soul gem. Warlock's a monster even without it, though certainly not beyond the limits. Scoob and I smoke and mirrored our way to a finals one time using mostly his deceptive usefulness, and the gem was nowhere to be found.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Digi
Depends on whether or not he has the gem. And despite his connection to it, I'm not sure we should include an Infinity Gem in anyone's standard equipment.

mhmm

Good point. Can anyone justify not banning the Infinity Gem? If not, its gone.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Digi
Depends on whether or not he has the gem. And despite his connection to it, I'm not sure we should include an Infinity Gem in anyone's standard equipment.
I'd agree if not for the fact that he specified "classic" Warlock, and i'm pretty sure when people think of what they consider "classic" warlock to be, he has the soul gem... I mean, the times when he didn't have it were very brief... When he was Him, during Infinity Gauntlet, and during GotG (which isn't even included since it's classic).

Digi
I dunno. I never had any problems finding feats for him that weren't involving the soul gem. other than the soul suck, the karmic blast is the only power that relies on the gem specifically. Everything else in innate, and there's actually scans stating that his innate powers get stronger without the gem.

TheKahn
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'd agree if not for the fact that he specified "classic" Warlock, and i'm pretty sure when people think of what they consider "classic" warlock to be, he has the soul gem... I mean, the times when he didn't have it were very brief... When he was Him, during Infinity Gauntlet, and during GotG (which isn't even included since it's classic).

Its up to KM and Blaze whether they keep him with the restrictions. Other teams have had to make similar choices when their prefered character had to be limited in some way to keep things somewhat fair. erm


Besides, there are still tons of other Herald level characters to pick from.

Kris Blaze
I have to say that it's pretty weak that you're saying that no one's made a case for it an hour or so after it was brought up. I'm the one who made the pick, I should get to plead my case. Fortunately, Batdude specified that the soul gem would not be allowed -before- I made the pick smile

I would have specified the gem if I wanted it with him.

Digi
Lol, good for you KB. I had more fun debating with Warlock than maybe any tourney ever. He's a blast when used thoroughly.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I have to say that it's pretty weak that you're saying that no one's made a case for it an hour or so after it was brought up. I'm the one who made the pick, I should get to plead my case. Fortunately, Batdude specified that the soul gem would not be allowed -before- I made the pick smile

I would have specified the gem if I wanted it with him.

No one said the matter was decided finally yet. We were only discussing its merits. Regardless, I'm glad the matter is settled. smile

TheKahn
Anyone have any more thoughts on Infinity Man?

King Kandy
Originally posted by Digi
I dunno. I never had any problems finding feats for him that weren't involving the soul gem. other than the soul suck, the karmic blast is the only power that relies on the gem specifically. Everything else in innate, and there's actually scans stating that his innate powers get stronger without the gem.
The gem also does matter manip (though I mean, when was the last time he ever used that?) and he shoots a lot of generic "blasts" with it too... but I see what you're saying.

Kris Blaze
Yeah Digi, Warlock's full of surprises big grin
Originally posted by TheKahn
No one said the matter was decided finally yet. We were only discussing its merits. Regardless, I'm glad the matter is settled. smile
Yeah, I noticed that now. It was all sorted out on beforehand though, so no worries.

King Kandy
Originally posted by TheKahn
Anyone have any more thoughts on Infinity Man?
I still think he's sketchy, but without the pre-crisis and DotNG feats I can tolerate him.

Digi
Originally posted by King Kandy
The gem also does matter manip (though I mean, when was the last time he ever used that?) and he shoots a lot of generic "blasts" with it too... but I see what you're saying.

Well, he's confirmed without the gem, so all's well. And all I know is that I'd love to see you debate against Warlock. You're the only person who probably knows more about him than I do (that I know of, at least). 'twould make a fun fight.

TheKahn
Originally posted by King Kandy
I still think he's sketchy, but without the pre-crisis and DotNG feats I can tolerate him.

So:

1. Is everyone else ok with Infinity Man without Pre-Crisis and DOTNG feats
?
and

2. Does JakeTheBank want him with those restrictions?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Digi
Well, he's confirmed without the gem, so all's well. And all I know is that I'd love to see you debate against Warlock. You're the only person who probably knows more about him than I do (that I know of, at least). 'twould make a fun fight.
Warlock can do most of his stuff without the Soul Gem though. It's not exactly what "taught" him how to do energy manipulation.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Digi
Well, he's confirmed without the gem, so all's well. And all I know is that I'd love to see you debate against Warlock. You're the only person who probably knows more about him than I do (that I know of, at least). 'twould make a fun fight.
He's probably my favorite character in comics... I never really felt like drafting him without gem though. That "beyond chaos and order" invisibility trick you pulled was neat though. I never could make heads or tails of how he pulled that one off. I guess it's just one of those little unexplained powers he has like when only his cape got crushed by star thief.

Digi
Originally posted by King Kandy
That "beyond chaos and order" invisibility trick you pulled was neat though.

Heh. Like I said, wild fun to debate with him. I forget how I even justified that little number, but it was amusing as hell to do it.

King Kandy
Sometimes I read the old matches from that tourney for fun. The trans level team tourney was imo the best tourney so far on KMC.

Charlotte DeBel
Team psycho charlotte officially drafts

Tangent Superman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_Comics#Superman

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by psycho gundam
team psycho charlotte is drafting Samuel L. Jackson not holding back.....err earth-9 superMAN

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Harvey_Dent_(Earth-9)

Oh sorry, you've already did that... didn't notice. Half asleep in the morning, darlingsmile

TheKahn
Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna, Tangent Superman

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom, Eradicator

Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman

Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman, Infinity Man

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar, Onslaught

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman, Martian Manhunter

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki, Atrocitus

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Nate Grey, Adam Warlock

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
galan and leo take atrocitus.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Atrocitus_(New_Earth)
I can sense your fear. smile
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Dropping Magnus in favor for Infinity Man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity-Man
Originally posted by TheKahn
Anyone have any more thoughts on Infinity Man?
He's too powerfull for the tourney.

Charlotte DeBel

Kris Blaze
I don't see the point in limiting a character's usable appearances, who is too strong, by like 80% to make him fit. I'm sure we could jam Odin in here if we only used like 4 issues. Doesn't seem like a good idea for Jake either, to go with a character he can barely use any appearances of. It seems like a lose-lose situation.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
AKA Darkseid-rivalring Infinity Man? Too close to Thanos level in physical powers in fact.
Unless there's lower-powered version I'm not aware of?

PS. Kandy did provide some ideas of nerfing (no PC feast and DoNG feats). That makes him more tame... Silver Surfer level instead of Thanos level.

Even if we narrow it down at that, in the few appearances he has, he still directly and repeatedly proves to be more powerfull than Orion and easily handles Darkseid's Omega Beam, among others. Instead of arguing about him being accepted (which he won't be), he should be thinking for a substitute.

xJLxKing
Why is IM in here? Seriously, the dude is not high herald. Superman was pounding him with hits that can destroy planets and strongest HV superman got and the dude was walking right through it

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Why is IM in here? Seriously, the dude is not high herald. Superman was pounding him with hits that can destroy planets and strongest HV superman got and the dude was walking right through it

I say, for the most of his career the dude is Thanos level. And that's on panel feats, not board idle talks.

-Pr-
Sorry, but i also have to put my name in as being against Infinity Man. The guy is simply far too powerful imo.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Why is IM in here? Seriously, the dude is not high herald. Superman was pounding him with hits that can destroy planets and strongest HV superman got and the dude was walking right through it
We all know this wasn't the case, but he was unaffected by Superman's attacks at least.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
We all know this wasn't the case, but he was unaffected by Superman's attacks at least.
Really? Was he unaffected by Superman's attack? Did he not stop Superman with one MM? Do Superman's punches hurt the strongest of high heralds?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Really? Was he unaffected by Superman's attack? Did he not stop Superman with one MM? Do Superman's punches hurt the strongest of high heralds?
You do not understand which parts of your post I replied to.

Kris Blaze
I would like to drop Adam Warlock in favour for BRB.

And if possible, Talisman II for Nate Grey.

Charlotte DeBel
If you trade Nate for Talisman, does that mean Id can now have Nate instead of iffy Onslaught?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
If you trade Nate for Talisman, does that mean Id can now have Nate instead of iffy Onslaught?
If Talisman is okay, then yes.

TheKahn
Ok, just got on. Please give me a moment to get everything together.

Infinity Man = rival of Darkseid? I didn't not know this. If accurate it clearly puts him over the caps and Jake would need to make another selection.

BRB = Perfectly fine

Talisman II = I'm not that familiar with. Although I think I've heard her compared to Dr. Strange in terms of strength (which is beyond the limits imo) and then there is that damn pouch. Anyone have any thoughts on her?

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by TheKahn
Ok, just got on. Please give me a moment to get everything together.

Infinity Man = rival of Darkseid? I didn't not know this. If accurate it clearly puts him over the caps and Jake would need to make another selection.

BRB = Perfectly fine

Talisman II = I'm not that familiar with. Although I think I've heard her compared to Dr. Strange in terms of strength (which is beyond the limits imo) and then there is that damn pouch. Anyone have any thoughts on her?

He was Forever People's champion against Darkseid and >>> most New Gods without plot devices.

If Zee is OK, Talisman II is OK, they're at the same level. Talisman II is to Strange what Zatanna is to Dr Fate... female runner up using specific magic style depending on her legacy.
She can be allowed under the same stipulations as Zee I think.

id369
Other then being poetically phrase as Dr. Strange rival. Talisman II has not bin shown to be as powerful as Classic Dr. Strange.

I have no qualms over Talisman II. I think she is fine for this tournament.

-Pr-
i don't know enough about Talisman to comment, so i have no argument.

TheKahn
Originally posted by id369
Other then being poetically phrase as Dr. Strange rival. Talisman II has not bin shown to be as powerful as Classic Dr. Strange.

I have no qualms over Talisman II. I think she is fine for this tournament.

KM will make you regret those words. no expression stick out tongue


If the other competitors don't have any problems with her, she's fine with me.

TheKahn
Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna, Tangent Superman

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom, Eradicator

Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman

Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman, Infinity Man

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar, Onslaught

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman, Martian Manhunter

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki, Atrocitus

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Beta Ray Bill, Talisman II




Ok, for the time being Infinity Man is out (unless we're all missing something making him acceptable), and I've read that some people have issues with Onslaught. What are the concerns with him?

-Pr-
imo, he's two heralds combined.

plus, he spanked juggernaut.

Kris Blaze
Talisman II is a dude I think.....

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
imo, he's two heralds combined.

plus, he spanked juggernaut.

True. Does anyone know what his durability is? mhmm

id369
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Talisman II is a dude I think.....

Talisman II is the daughter of Talisman I.


Originally posted by -Pr-
imo, he's two heralds combined.

plus, he spanked juggernaut.

Two weak heralds. And spanking Juggy was the highlight of his carrier. What else can he do past spanking Juggy?uhuh

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by id369
Talisman II is the daughter of Talisman I.
Yeah, I remember now eek!

We contemplated going for Talisman, but Batdude got a bit difficult.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Talisman II is a dude I think.....

Talisman I chronologically was a dude from Australia, Liz's dad never went with Talisman codename in comics. The chick from Alpha Flight is Talisman II.
http://uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=86

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talisman_(Marvel_Comics)
Here's very obscure Talisman I.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Talisman I was a dude from Australia. The chick from Alpha Flight is Talisman II.
http://uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=86
Yeah, I mix up these Alpha Flight scumbags.

Philosophía
I'm also against Onslaught.

TheKahn

Philosophía
Originally posted by TheKahn
What specifically do you object to?

The fact that he is too powerfull, considering what he did to Juggernaut.

TheKahn

-K-M-
Originally posted by TheKahn
Infinity Man = rival of Darkseid? I didn't not know this. If accurate it clearly puts him over the caps and Jake would need to make another selection.

Talisman II = I'm not that familiar with. Although I think I've heard her compared to Dr. Strange in terms of strength (which is beyond the limits imo) and then there is that damn pouch. Anyone have any thoughts on her?

Yes, as he is even Darkseid's brother. Hence why I asked earlier why was he allowed.

Him, and Loki is above Strange and he was allowed.

Originally posted by id369
Talisman II is the daughter of Talisman I.


No, Talisman II is the father of Talisman I. but if you want to get specific the female Talisman from Alpha Flight is Talisman III, as there were 2 Talismans before her.

Im not including the Australian Talisman in the numbering.

leonidas
Originally posted by -K-M-
Loki is above Strange and he was allowed.


confused

TheKahn
Originally posted by -K-M-
No, Talisman II is the father of Talisman I. but if you want to get specific the female Talisman from Alpha Flight is Talisman III, as there were 2 Talismans before her.

Im not including the Australian Talisman in the numbering.

Could you please post a bio just so everyone is clear about who you want? wink

-K-M-
What Genis-Vell we talking about as in incarnation?

Originally posted by leonidas
confused

yes, as shown *shrugs*

Originally posted by TheKahn
Could you please post a bio just so everyone is clear about who you want? wink

Its just Shaman with the Talisman of Power

The Nuul
Originally posted by TheKahn
Ok, the Juggernaut feat is clearly an issue several people have. Is there anything else about the character that is objectionable? Strength-tp-energy manip.-durability-etc?

I'm just trying to determine if this characters feats clearly put him above the likes of a Green Lantern or Silver Surfer. erm


Yes, Onslaught is above them or any HH.

No HH can do that feat of ripping the Gem of Cyttorak right out Juggernaut. I dont even think Odin can do it either.

id369
I am pretty certain that just about all top tiers, are prone to having at least one ridiculously high feat. Is that enough justification, to deny my draft?

TheKahn
Originally posted by -K-M-
What Genis-Vell we talking about as in incarnation?
No specific version that I'm aware of. It was debated in the first round of the draft with most people agreeing that his feats did not put him over the limits.

Originally posted by -K-M-

Its just Shaman with the Talisman of Power

Gotcha thumb up

leonidas
Originally posted by -K-M-
yes, as shown *shrugs*

not based on feats. it's really not even all that close if we compare feats of the 2. for that matter, talisman has pretty easily overridden loki's magic.

talisman>loki>strange?

-K-M-
Originally posted by TheKahn
No specific version that I'm aware of. It was debated in the first round of the draft with most people agreeing that his feats did not put him over the limits. :

Genis has been shown to blink out the universe erm....a specific version greatly depends on this.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by -K-M-
No, Talisman II is the father of Talisman I. but if you want to get specific the female Talisman from Alpha Flight is Talisman III, as there were 2 Talismans before her.

Im not including the Australian Talisman in the numbering.
I knew I was right!

-K-M-
Originally posted by leonidas
not based on feats. it's really not even all that close if we compare feats of the 2. for that matter, talisman has pretty easily overridden loki's magic.

talisman>loki>strange?

Hes owned him twice by my count.

What? No.

Kris Blaze
Cancelling out someone's spell does not make you stronger than them. One enchanter has messed with and cancelled Odin's spell, but he is not more powerful than Odin, not by a longshot.

King Kandy
Originally posted by -K-M-
Genis has been shown to blink out the universe erm....a specific version greatly depends on this.
That was an alternate version who was not just alternate, but amped by HoM Witch unconsciously... that's not even close to applicable to the main Genis.

I think the stuff about Onslaught is nonsense... OK, he has a pretty good showing in owning Juggernaut... who cares, I can show just about every character in this tourney has their highest feats at a level above that. I think it's quite the double standard myself. Xavier and Magneto are imo bottom of the barrel heralds, even combined they're nothing that goes beyond the boundaries of this tourney.

-K-M-
Originally posted by King Kandy
That was an alternate version who was not just alternate, but amped by HoM Witch unconsciously... that's not even close to applicable to the main Genis.

Im not talking about HoM, but yes he did that as well and he actually realized about the 616 universe and then started to blink out HoM universe thanks to Flashback. Where did it say he was amped by the Witch?

TheKahn
*****Attention******

Everyone please make sure you've read the rules at the beginning of this thread just to be sure you're planned tactics are compatible with them. Thanks.

King Kandy
Originally posted by -K-M-
Im not talking about HoM, but yes he did that as well and he actually realized about the 616 universe and then started to blink out HoM universe thanks to Flashback. Where did it say he was amped by the Witch?
When did the 616 Genis ever blink the universe, or do anything close to that? As far as I know, we have rules on KMC that prevent alternate universe feats from being used under most conditions, and if we didn't, I wouldn't try to pass off a feat that happened to an alternate Genis like it happened to the Genis we drafted.

TheKahn
As for the magic users, does anyone honestly think that there is anything either Zatanna, Shaman/Talisman II, or Loki could do that the other two could not?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by TheKahn
As for the magic users, does anyone honestly think that there is anything either Zatanna, Shaman/Talisman II, or Loki could do that the other two could not?
I know that Loki can absorb abilities, but he won't have access to that ability per the rules.

King Kandy
I'm sure there are some things, given they specialize, but nothing that would make any of them above the caps or anything.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm sure there are some things, given they specialize, but nothing that would make any of them above the caps or anything.
This sounds pretty good to me.

They ARE magicians after all.

leonidas
Originally posted by -K-M-
Hes owned him twice by my count.

What? No.

strange struggled against the enchantress too . . .

based on history of feats, strange is far greater than loki, regardless of old head-to-head battles.

leonidas
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I know that Loki can absorb abilities, but he won't have access to that ability per the rules.

quiet you!


shifty

King Kandy
Originally posted by leonidas
strange struggled against the enchantress too . . .

based on history of feats, strange is far greater than loki, regardless of old head-to-head battles.
There was a showing I think where Loki stole all of strange's artifacts and used them, but Strange still beat him.

-K-M-
Originally posted by King Kandy
When did the 616 Genis ever blink the universe, or do anything close to that? As far as I know, we have rules on KMC that prevent alternate universe feats from being used under most conditions, and if we didn't, I wouldn't try to pass off a feat that happened to an alternate Genis like it happened to the Genis we drafted.

Crazy Gensis and Baron Zemo told Genis in THunderbolts he would destroy the universe so they got rid of him.

Originally posted by leonidas
strange struggled against the enchantress too . . .

based on history of feats, strange is far greater than loki, regardless of old head-to-head battles.

Fair enough.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by leonidas
quiet you!


shifty
Don't worry, Bats did not respond to my super-jealous rant on MSN sad

King Kandy
Originally posted by -K-M-
Crazy Gensis and Baron Zemo told Genis in THunderbolts he would destroy the universe so they got rid of him.

iirc, that was because the way he was drawing power from the ends of times was going to destabilize himself and the universe, not because of anything he was personally capable of at the moment, but because of future risks.

I mean, you might as well say "Wonder Man is a multiverse buster" because he set of the flaw that was going to end the multiverse in Marvel: The End.

darthgoober
Originally posted by TheKahn
Ok, the Juggernaut feat is clearly an issue several people have. Is there anything else about the character that is objectionable? Strength-tp-energy manip.-durability-etc?

I'm just trying to determine if this characters feats clearly put him above the likes of a Green Lantern or Silver Surfer. erm
I'm all for letting feats be the judge most of the time, but that really Onslaught really doesn't seem to fit into that category IMO. I mean he may not have actually done anything that Surfer or GL couldn't, but at the same time unlike those characters we have literally NO idea of what it would take to put the guy down for the count.

I'm also worried a little in regards to Nate Grey. I mean the stuff he's done to date isn't big deal to me, but it seems like I've heard something about him running into Sentry sometime soon and Sentry's character is obviously more than a little "iffy" at this point. So if I've heard right about the intended crossover I think he should be treated like Sentry and only allowed past appearances.

TheKahn
Ok, Batdude and I have made a few decisions. First, we are going to allow the Magneto/Xavier version of Onslaught. Nothing we are aware of clearly puts him above the caps and there was technically no rule against using an independent character that was an amalgam of two other characters.

Also, as for all of the controversial characters in the tournament, we will be watching closely for any abuses of the rules or limits. no expression
Expect heavy penalties or disqualification if it is clear to the judges that a team is cheating in some way. So play by the rules.


Finally, the judges will be using the following criteria for scoring the matches:

Originality: 0-5
Effectiveness: 0-5
Debating Skill: 0-10

If one or more judge calls a match a tie, we'll go to point totals to decide a winner.

id369
Originally posted by -K-M-
Crazy Gensis and Baron Zemo told Genis in THunderbolts he would destroy the universe so they got rid of him.



So what part of this comment, references Genis blinking characters out of existence?

-K-M-
Originally posted by King Kandy
iirc, that was because the way he was drawing power from the ends of times was going to destabilize himself and the universe, not because of anything he was personally capable of at the moment, but because of future risks.

I mean, you might as well say "Wonder Man is a multiverse buster" because he set of the flaw that was going to end the multiverse in Marvel: The End.

Actually Im pretty sure they said he was doing it on his own power, but if your not going to use the universe blinking/destroying version of Genis I see no problems.

batdude123
Originally posted by King Kandy
Sometimes I read the old matches from that tourney for fun. The trans level team tourney was imo the best tourney so far on KMC.

ha-som

Kris Blaze
Bottom of the page.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Ok, Batdude and I have made a few decisions. First, we are going to allow the Magneto/Xavier version of Onslaught. Nothing we are aware of clearly puts him above the caps and there was technically no rule against using an independent character that was an amalgam of two other characters.

Also, as for all of the controversial characters in the tournament, we will be watching closely for any abuses of the rules or limits. no expression
Expect heavy penalties or disqualification if it is clear to the judges that a team is cheating in some way. So play by the rules.


Finally, the judges will be using the following criteria for scoring the matches:

Originality: 0-5
Effectiveness: 0-5
Debating Skill: 0-10

If one or more judge calls a match a tie, we'll go to point totals to decide a winner.

Interesting stuff, real interesting.

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm all for letting feats be the judge most of the time, but that really Onslaught really doesn't seem to fit into that category IMO. I mean he may not have actually done anything that Surfer or GL couldn't, but at the same time unlike those characters we have literally NO idea of what it would take to put the guy down for the count.
The onus to prove what this version of Onslaught can do/survive is on the team that drafted him. That's the burden anyone takes in drafting someone with relatively few feats.


Originally posted by darthgoober

I'm also worried a little in regards to Nate Grey. I mean the stuff he's done to date isn't big deal to me, but it seems like I've heard something about him running into Sentry sometime soon and Sentry's character is obviously more than a little "iffy" at this point. So if I've heard right about the intended crossover I think he should be treated like Sentry and only allowed past appearances.

Future appearances are only allowed if they are consistent with past ones. If Nate gets a massive power-up in DA, then his new feats won't be allowable.

leonidas
Originally posted by -K-M-
Fair enough.

thumb up

-K-M-
Originally posted by id369
So what part of this comment, references Genis blinking characters out of existence?

That happened with crazy Genis not there, he was told he could destroy the universe then. However, if your not using those feats I have no problem with him.

id369
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm all for letting feats be the judge most of the time, but that really Onslaught really doesn't seem to fit into that category IMO. I mean he may not have actually done anything that Surfer or GL couldn't, but at the same time unlike those characters we have literally NO idea of what it would take to put the guy down for the count.

I'm also worried a little in regards to Nate Grey. I mean the stuff he's done to date isn't big deal to me, but it seems like I've heard something about him running into Sentry sometime soon and Sentry's character is obviously more than a little "iffy" at this point. So if I've heard right about the intended crossover I think he should be treated like Sentry and only allowed past appearances.

You will be happy to know that, no one has X-Man for the moment. He got dropped for the guy that slayed a Sky Father being, by pulling universe ending attack from his magical pouch.

But, but, but, Onslaught pulled the gem out of Juggernaut!

-K-M-
Originally posted by id369
You will be happy to know that, no one has X-Man for the moment. He got dropped for the guy that slayed a Sky Father being, by pulling universe ending attack from his magical pouch.

But, but, but, Onslaught pulled the gem out of Juggernaut!

Who did? Shaman? No he didn't kill Ranaq and Ranaq was weakened as he was using a human host as noted.

batdude123
Originally posted by -K-M-
Genis has been shown to blink out the universe erm....a specific version greatly depends on this.

They stated they were going to use Photon Genis.

TheKahn
Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna, Tangent Superman

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom, Eradicator

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar, Onslaught

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman, Martian Manhunter

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki, Atrocitus

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Beta Ray Bill, Talisman II/Shaman


Still need picks for these two teams:
Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman

Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman

id369

-K-M-

psycho gundam
casually kicking the shit out of juggernaut TWICE is being downplayed now, but later it will be a big deal.

watch

id369
Originally posted by -K-M-
haha no. Crazy Genis incident anyone? If you want to use just Photon which is fine. His powers and abilities changed after Atlas "killed" him.
facepalm

If by change of powers you mean, absorbing and internalizing the Nega Bands? Yes. With the change being he no longer needs to use an external device to apply the same power.

Atlas killing Photon? No! he killed Captain Marvel post insanity! Not Photon.
coffee1

-K-M-
Originally posted by id369
facepalm

If by change of powers you mean, absorbing and internalizing the Nega Bands? Yes. which means he has the same set of powers.

Atlas killing Photon? No! that is Captain Marvel post insanity killed! Not Photon.
coffee1

What? He became Photon after that and as noted in his death he changed. So are you using just Photon or all of Genis feats?

leonidas
Originally posted by psycho gundam
casually kicking the shit out of juggernaut TWICE is being downplayed now, but later it will be a big deal.

watch

yep.

and genis is going to cause problems, i've almost no doubt about that. i'd wager it's about 50/50 that he'll be banned at some point--i hope not, but it feels that way already. if he is, then would id's team repick? i'd think not, which would leave them with just 2 characters which would lead to them bailing which would lead to a bad number of teams.

i don't foresee a happy ending here . . . sad

-K-M-
I have no problem with Genis if your not using universe busting feats as that goes beyong everyone elses powerlevels and beyond the cap. *shrugs*

leonidas
Originally posted by -K-M-
I have no problem with Genis if your not using universe busting feats as that goes beyong everyone elses powerlevels and beyond the cap. *shrugs*

but i AM against neutering someone's power level and feats just to allow them in. and that is different from what's happening to magic users whose specific ABILITIES have been banned.

i'm not necassarily against genis--i just think he will cause problems later on, and if he does it could be unfortunate for everyone. erm

TheKahn
Originally posted by leonidas
yep.

and genis is going to cause problems, i've almost no doubt about that. i'd wager it's about 50/50 that he'll be banned at some point--i hope not, but it feels that way already. if he is, then would id's team repick? i'd think not, which would leave them with just 2 characters which would lead to them bailing which would lead to a bad number of teams.

i don't foresee a happy ending here . . . sad

Maybe, but I hope not. We've been as clear as possible on the limits and what is and is not allowable. We are going to do everything possible to prevent anyone from exploiting the rules. Everyone, just please follow the damn rules. It will make things more enjoyable and pleasant for everyone involved.

Also, any team who quits midround will forfeit the fight and their opponents get an automatic win.

psycho gundam
same here, shoehorning a character in by nerfing their power output is destined to be problematic.

id369

id369

leonidas

-K-M-

TheKahn

King Kandy
Originally posted by leonidas
id, does the version of genis you've drafted have the POTENTIAL to accomplish all the things the 'insane' version accomplished?
The "Insane" version never did anything I couldn't see SS doing.

id369

TheKahn
Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna, Tangent Superman

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom, Eradicator

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar, Onslaught

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman, Martian Manhunter

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki, Atrocitus

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Beta Ray Bill, Talisman II/Shaman


Still need picks for these two teams:
Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman

Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman





If anyone wants to add/drop characters, the deadline to do so is this Saturday at noon EST.

leonidas
hmm, so he has potential to end the universe but is still allowed in?
THAT's the part i don't get. why should he be allowed in if it takes the neutering of his power level to allow him in. why not let sentinel in? thanos? neither of them has the potential, using innate powers, to end the universe?

and genis's cosmic awareness and tp have been shown to function at omniversal levels. all of these things are things ss is NOT capable of.

i get what you're saying kahn. he can't use those levels of powers. what i don't get is if he HAS those levels of power, and can reach them without any outside augmentation, then why is he allowed in the first place?

id369

Omega Vision
Is it to late to call a third round pick? If not then I call Swamp Thing.

TheKahn

TheKahn
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Is it to late to call a third round pick? If not then I call Swamp Thing.

No, it isn't too late. Swamp Thing is acceptable as long as you are aware that he only get a single plant body. He can't transfer his consciousness to other bodies or rebuild a new body if the original is destroyed.

King Kandy
EDIT

leonidas
does he possess enough innate power to do this:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/6941/newthunderbolts018page199eo.jpg

if yes, his level of power is being neutered to allow him entry into the tournament. THAT is my issue.

Originally posted by id369
Genis-Vell does not have telepathy to begin with.

What the f**k?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5374595

id369

leonidas
Originally posted by TheKahn
KK and Id will be held to this.

At this level a lot of characters have suspicious high-end feats that could potentially disqualify them. We are giving the competitors the benefit of the doubt as much as we can. I trust the competitors to restrain themselves when it comes to referencing dubious feats in the tournament (if not Batdude and I will do it for them with zeal). no expression

again, to be clear--if his level of power has to be neutered, then it raises a large issue. i could say i'll use thanos, but only access levels of power`that are acceptable. i just don't see the difference between the examples. erm

id369

TheKahn

King Kandy
Originally posted by leonidas
does he possess enough innate power to do this:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/6941/newthunderbolts018page199eo.jpg

if yes, his level of power is being neutered to allow him entry into the tournament. THAT is my issue.
That was a level of power he was going to be capable of in the future. Not what he could do right that second. As we later saw confirmed when Zemo easily took out this "universe buster".

leonidas
Originally posted by id369
If he did, he would have been beaten by Barron Zemo.

that doesn't answer the question . . . .

kk already admitted he can do whatever insane genis could do. by extension, he possesses the innate power to kill eternity. when you say you won't use that example, i believe you. when you say you'll use him within the rules, i believe you.

my issue isn't with how you use him--it's that his base level appears to be well beyond the tier if used to it's potential.




i'll take your word for it.

TheKahn
Originally posted by leonidas
again, to be clear--if his level of power has to be neutered, then it raises a large issue. i could say i'll use thanos, but only access levels of power`that are acceptable. i just don't see the difference between the examples. erm

I believe KK and Id are arguing that Genis-Vell doesn't have to be neutered to fit under the caps. Aside from the whole recreating-the-universe feat where he had an unknown amount of aid from abstract entities, there hasn't really been any evidence to make us think he can do something other legal characters can't.

At this point, I think everyone knows I'm being particularly strict on the rules. If I honestly saw any evidence that showed Genis would give any team an unfair advantage, I'd ban him in a heartbeat. I just haven't seen any yet. erm

leonidas
Originally posted by TheKahn
I believe KK and Id are arguing that Genis-Vell doesn't have to be neutered to fit under the caps. Aside from the whole recreating-the-universe feat where he had an unknown amount of aid from abstract entities, there hasn't really been any evidence to make us think he can do something other legal characters can't.

At this point, I think everyone knows I'm being particularly strict on the rules. If I honestly saw any evidence that showed Genis would give any team an unfair advantage, I'd ban him in a heartbeat. I just haven't seen any yet. erm

all righty then. i'll reserve the right to 'i told you so', for later. big grin

TheKahn
Originally posted by leonidas
all righty then. i'll reserve the right to 'i told you so', for later. big grin

I swear the next tourney will consist solely of non-powered septuagenarians. Aunt May, Jarvis, and Alfred FTW. stick out tongue

TheKahn
Team psycho charlotte - Kyle Rayner (GL), Zatanna, Tangent Superman

Team darthgoober & Blair Wind - Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom, Eradicator

Team: id369 and King Kandy - Genis-Vell, Quasar, Onslaught

Team Philosophia and PR - Hal Jordan (GL), Superman, Martian Manhunter

Team Leonidas & Galen007 - Blue Superman, Loki, Atrocitus

Team Kris Blaze & KM - Captain Comet, Beta Ray Bill, Talisman II/Shaman

Team Omega Vision & JL King - Wally West (Flash), All Star Superman, Swamp Thing


Still need picks from:
Team JaketheBank - Thor, Cyborg Superman

King Kandy
Originally posted by leonidas
that doesn't answer the question . . . .

kk already admitted he can do whatever insane genis could do. by extension, he possesses the innate power to kill eternity. when you say you won't use that example, i believe you. when you say you'll use him within the rules, i believe you.

my issue isn't with how you use him--it's that his base level appears to be well beyond the tier if used to it's potential.
We don't know how he killed Eternity; one thing we DO know, is that he couldn't have done it on his own; neither genis nor Entropy could do it by themselves. Now, I always attributed Entropy with the bulk of the feat because it was mentioned earlier that he was the one who caused Genis's cosmic awareness to spike in the first place.

Besides, Eternity wanted to die in that encounter. Hardly a fair fight.

TheKahn

King Kandy
Originally posted by TheKahn
After discussing the issue, Batdude and I have decided that since you drafted the 'Photon' version of Genis-Vell, it will be up to you to convince the judges of the matches that Photon can replicate the feats of other Genis-Vell incarnations.
I'm fine with that. I strongly believe we can prove that one.

TheKahn
We should have the final pick in sometime tonight.

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