Batdude and Kahn's Match #1: Kris Blaze/KM vs. psycho gundam/Charlotte DeBel

Charlotte DeBel

Official post #1. Debating for characters Tangent Superman& Zatanna

And discussing their prep in general.
First of all, our opponents seemed to forget that thing in their opening strategy:
Originally posted by TheKahn

Prep Time:
- Each team will have access to a "team lounge" measuring 15x15 meters with a couple of couches, satellite tv, refrigerator, washroom, and an assortment of snacks and drinks for 5 minutes prior to each fight where they can use their prep time. . No extending of that prep time via any means (ie speed force or time manipulation).

Equipment:
- Characters are allowed to carry only what they normally have in their possession. For example a Green Lantern get his/her ring but Reed Richards can't go back to his lab for the ultimate nullifer or anything else.

We're NOT spending our prep on the planet's surface, and I'm afraid Beta Ray Bill's ship is a)too big to fit in the space of the team's lounge; b) is sub-standart equipment which is not allowed in there (the only exception made is for GL's batteries). I don't think ship (unlike Stormbreaker) fits the description unless Batdude and Kahn have allowed that specifically. Also, there's no summoning rule affecting BOTH the assistance of spirits for Shaman and ship summoning for Beta Ray Bill.

Rain, spreading powders etc would happen in the opening seconds of the battle.So basically the only things I can accept are: a)mindlink; b) Bill communicating with his hammer; c)fog of invisibility and shields; d)TK shielding

The rain and powders can be done in the battle only, and since our team has got the edge in speed against yours... I see Zatanna's astral projection doing that to Shaman even BEFORE he pulls out anti-flying powder and the rest
http://img81.imageshack.us/i/41484284xe8.jpg/

More freezing of top tier magicians\magical beings, such as Etrigan and Zauriel
http://img17.imageshack.us/i/zatannastop1.jpg/
http://img9.imageshack.us/i/zatannastop2.jpg/

So he won't be grabbing a THING during battle.

Can "magic-cancelling" blast interfere with that? No, he's too slow given our speedforce-enhanced reactions (and the fact that for our team thinking=action for the most part). Also, let's see that scan closer.
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Beta%20Ray%20Bill/magicblast.jpg

It's barely "washing off" magical energy from some guys, so at the very WORST it cancels the "damage reversal" spell on the constructs... which is the icing on the cake.

Cancelling the transformation of some beings is parlour tricks for Zatanna:
http://img211.imageshack.us/i/racerxcountdown38p12oy4.jpg/

AND can be done to Beta Ray Bill causing him to reverse into mortal form.

Captain Comet is also busy with Tangent Superman who is at the very least telepath in his class... if not greater. His clairvoyance is countered by ours...Tangent Superman can play that game as well. But in general spying on the opposition during the prep is not allowed in tourneys.

psycho gundam

wow, our opposition broke an assload of rules

psycho gundam

unofficial post

for visual referenceOriginally posted by psycho gundam
in the lounge.....

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/999/billyfb.jpg summoning outside help, not-so-portable technology ( the battleship potemkin aka skuttlebutt), access to the battlefield, AND tampering with our preparation.....

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5025/cmonson.jpg

khan, batdude, our team's simple utilization of the construct rule pales in comparison to the offenses committed above, it's not the level of trick rule breakage, but it's illegal nonetheless.

Charlotte DeBel

Official post #2.

Barring any nonsence from the list Gundam just've posted... continue the "how-we-kill-your-team" list.

1. Superior reaction speed advantage gives the right of the first hit to Zatanna and Tangent Superman in the battle. Shaman is a normal human reactionspeed-wise, and even IF he absorbs magical attacks (which he does consciously), he can be pretty much immobilized in non-magical way.
http://img228.imageshack.us/i/stealspowerxl7.jpg/
http://img225.imageshack.us/i/stealspower2ix1.jpg/

She can do to Shaman the same Faust (with stolen powers of Kyle and Wally West and zero direct experience with them) did to her. No free hands=no casting. And no pulling stuff.

Controlling Zatanna's astral projection=big no-no... She was able to override the control of the freakin' demonic diety of Chaos, your odds? Not so great.
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6231/zatanna417pu9.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/112/zatanna418dj1.jpg

On Captain Comet vs Tangent Superman. Tangent Superman can adapt as well, altering his body via molecular TK
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/13fn0.jpg/
He is supergenius and equal of Comet in terms of raw power at least. I bet he knows enough to understand his tactics. They both are creme de la creme of DC TP hierarchy.

Somebody who cah sence probings across multiverse can definetely compete with him in terms of the sensitivity. And genius level intellect means he won't be fooled by simple "psychic reversal" tricks (Grodd is genius but he's not "millions of years beyond mankind" genius).
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/sm3.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/sm4.jpg

The GL ring can assist in TP as well. In the "Reference" post I've shown some relevant feats of it.

Now, the feats of Kyle being mind controlled are irrelevant here, as he's being MINDCONTROLLED from the start of the match. He's under "psychic governor" of sorts, that keeps him ultrafocused and in sorts of trance.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1240538/ts3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1240539/ts4.jpg.html

Zatanna has already shown that she can "deny access" to several minds even for the most powerful telepaths. Pray tell me, does Comet beating Gorrilla Grodd (via clever move, I admit) shows that he's >> Despero or Martian Manhunter. In short, while trying to breach our shields, you have good odds to forget about your own shielding.
But I'll let my colleague deal with that.

Charlotte DeBel

Post # 3.

A few quick points.

1. Mindcontrol is banned, and Zatanna has resisted tampering with her form from Chaos god. Next, darling...
He's dealing with his peer as far as sorcery lore goes, not some random being. And "spirits as conducts of magic" I can buy, but they are sentient beings with their will (that's what Spirit Test is for).

I proposed ABSOLUTELY non-magical way of restraining Shaman and stopping him from casting. The only things he did without his pouch were some random blasts of magical energy... how "impressive". Timestop and teleports are good, but banned... Zatanna also has teleported without casting anything.

Your dusts aren't reaching the actual members of our team- we're in AIRTIGHT bubble (in most cases air is the conduct for the dusts) which was enhanced to not let any magic from outside in. The only ones affected by that are soulless constructs of Kyle's- antiflying dust won't help a bit, and being constructs acting on Kyle's beck and call (sp?) they're immune to whatever Dream Dust you pull out of your asses (in case of internalized bag- literally).

The feat of giving advanced technologies to neolite race and tampering with their minds so they can understand it... irrelevant and not impressive. It proves that a)he has that knowledge; b)he can implant it in the heads of lots of people.

Also, darling, stop parading around the feats of mind controlling GLs. Kyle's mind was tampered with in prep, is protected by mindlink\mind alteration from Tangent Superman (I've posted what is "psychic governor" wink

and additional shielding from Zatanna (who has prevented Martian Manhunter from reading JLA's minds, and has shielded the League from Despero's mind control\mind probing). I have no doubts he'll own unprotected Kyle (SLIGHT doubts to be fair since Kyle has several impressive anti-mindcontrol feats).

The relevant feats were posted before in the "reference" post, but I'll add some more just to show that attempts of Captain Comet to do ANYTHING to our team via TP are null and void.

http://img49.imageshack.us/i/scan0012eo3.jpg/
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0013cr6.jpg/
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0014dh7.jpg/
Despero was mind controlling J'onn AND Aquaman, both top tier telepaths, in that case. Any doubts that Zee-made mind shielding is sufficient to keep Captain Comet away?

And IF you're start talking about Comet being>>Despero TPwise....well, that's when I know it's time to GTFO from the tourney for you.
Basically the only thing that rices Despero above the caps is his TP, and saying Comet is better=BS of the highest order.

But that's all about our Ms Sexy Fishnets. Let's get to the bald brothah...

Tangent Earth technology is ahead of New Earth technology. Yet NOTHING on Tangent Earth can harm Tangent Superman...he evolved beyond the ability of their tech or metas to harm them.
http://img296.imageshack.us/i/tangentsuperman009hi2.jpg/

Evolved "milllenia beyond the current mankind", and we're talking millenia beyond technologically advanced race, and not the bunch of random cavemen.
http://img267.imageshack.us/i/23oh6.jpg/

The most powerful member of Tangent League.
Originally posted by Avlon
Superman becomes part of the JLA who are equipped with some other powerful characters. For example...WW who can erase beings from existence. Batman, the undead knight cursed by Merlin. Atom, who can play with molecular density in himself as well as other beings, and Green Lantern, who can bring the dead to life to fulfill their desires.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/996/tangentjla22vv6.th.jpg

Even then...he sees this as a way to relieve boredom.

Confirmed
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/tangent1.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/tangent2.jpg

Another reason why the fog of yours is useless to the extreme (though nobody seems to argue against that)
http://img61.imageshack.us/i/tangentjla21op7.jpg/

psycho gundam

1st post

kyle's mental fortitude sans power ring (dope ass feat):

http://a.imagehost.org/0043/GreenLantern124p11.jpg

http://a.imagehost.org/0040/GreenLantern124p12.jpg

breaks psimon's mental domination power:

http://h.imagehost.org/0568/nt116-022.jpg

http://h.imagehost.org/0929/nt116-023.jpg

combine that with my dude harvey dent backing him up, taking him mentally isn't happening, the daxamite hooligan beatdown is def a go.

capt. comet isn't cracking him.

speaking of that:

http://h.imagehost.org/0164/Green_Lantern_v3_089_pg19.jpg

http://h.imagehost.org/0086/Green_Lantern_v3_089_pg20.jpg

since kyle is pretty much hell bent on seeing your team getting shitstomped, any damage to his constructs will be regenerated (if they can even be damaged at this point). their attack style will be akin to a team of stardusts repeatedly battering your team at high speeds while relaying any and all trauma directly to your team, courtacy of zatanna. so any trauma received and any trauma given (normal punches, superman punches, etc) will be sent to you.

bill might let go of stormbreaker during some of this, and when he does our constructs will pick it up and continue to beat you with it. non-living structures and such circumvent the worthiness enchantment allowing our constructs to use stormbreaker as a bludgeoning tool, it's be good enough, and repeated speed force punches from the daxamites hand that corresponds to bill's will most likely loosen his grip on his mallet.

he'll have two mon-el style daxamites on his shit by the way.

the daxa-constructs can knock out your guys from jump anyway, talisman would be headless before he can do any fancy stuff, comet...i guess he'll put up a better fight, but eventually defeat is in the cards, and bill goes to valhalla.

oh yeah, kyle bypassing the shields of solaris:

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0674/dccomics1M4pg08

whom has mad juice behind his protection.

psycho gundam

i for one am still fighting the "daxamite debacle", creating mobile, flying bricks well within the rules, kyle's just damn good at it:

http://h.imagehost.org/0885/GreenLantern140-03.jpg

(thanks to charlotte for the scan)

not sure where the ruling came about that put a cap on his ability to create a simulacrum of an alien species WITHOUT the dna or thoughts of a daxamite, just their strengths and attack style culled from kyle's memory of them + his skills as an artist to animate said memories.

anyway, some stuff about his shields:

takes a high powered shot from extent right in the torso and lives, note that this was a spur of the moment feat so his shielding here could have been even greater if he was prepared for it.

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0935/19_Zero_Hour_02_Page_17_Image_0001

another instance:

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0354/Green_Lantern_Flash_Faster_Friends_01-47

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0171/Green_Lantern_Flash_Faster_Friends_01-48

and when he's got even more forewarning.....

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0874/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_09_Image_0001

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0956/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_10_Image_0001

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0855/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_11_Image_0001

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0163/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_12_Image_0001

beta ray bill's storms and blasts should be staved off by shields easily,
and our constructs durability is nothing to laugh at either.

and here is kyle making supergirl move lightspeed via will:

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0206/NTT124-09

so he can in fact make his super hard constructs move at the speed cap if he wants to (and he definitely does here) so not sure what the problem is with his ability to create useful constructs when he can do it within the rules at stronger levels.

should we just not call them daxamites? cause they're really not.

Charlotte DeBel

Continuing the debate.

Mungi, pray tell me, what does the Elisabeth's magic absorbtion property have to do with her dad? Cause Circlet of Enchantment only helps with the spirits and control over them. Magical reversion is the power of Elisabeth, and you've drafted AND using Michael.
Him being Talisman only gave him greater power over spirits, and nothing more. Elisabeth's power over magic is inborn, her being Native American Messiah.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/A_Flight2/AlphaFlight18-20.jpg

The power is inborn, at best Circlet of Enchantment only helps to control that power. So... Elisabeth's feats are highly irrelevant, as magical absorbtion\reversal is her INBORN power, not the one of Circlet.
No more Elisabeth's feats for Michael, please... and IIRC, he DOESN'T have magical reversal feats on his own. His daughter's feats aren't cutting it, sorry.
http://uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=86&page=2
Here's more on Circlet, and the proof that it's NOT the sourse of Talisman's power (the only thing Michael got from wearing it is unity with spirits, and not Elisabeth's inborn powers, Michael even call her "magical mutant" of sorts...she's kind of magical Bishop by birth and not because of Circlet).

And no magic absorbtion spells your doom... cause anything else Shaman does is useless. All you got from Talisman's position is greater control over spirits (useless in the tourney where summons are banned), not Elisabeth's inborn powers.
Speaking of spirits...
Shaman does NOTHING to Zee who has resisted Xaos' control over her spiritual self. While his summons can be rendered useless. How?

Green Lantern ring can control spirits or souls... Quite easily, TBH.

http://h.imagehost.org/0448/JLA_73_pg19.jpg
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0236/JLA_73_pg20
http://a.imagehost.org/0142/JLA_73_pg21.jpg

Zatanna has experience of trapping spirits...does that to Red Tornado, who's the closest thing to your Wind Spirit.
http://img359.imageshack.us/i/06qa7.jpg/

http://img359.imageshack.us/i/16vf6.jpg/
http://img301.imageshack.us/i/17tf5.jpg/
http://img148.imageshack.us/i/18zj9.jpg/

And without magical absorbtion (which is Elisabeth's INBORN power and is not depending on Circlet) Shaman is not safe from that...nor from the green construct covering his mouth and hands to prevent him from casting.

Hell, without magical absorbtion he's not safe from THAT:
http://img17.imageshack.us/i/zatannastop1.jpg/
http://img9.imageshack.us/i/zatannastop2.jpg/
And then... simple ring blast to the face is enough.

Same goes for Beta Ray Bill suddenly being able to use Thor's high end feats and tap into his experience. "Hammer wishpering"=\=direct mindlink by high end telepath (that allows Harvey and Zee to tap into Kyle's experience)... Exactly HOW MUCH of the information from Thor's millenia of experience he's going to absorb in 5 minutes or less especially when: a)Bill is leagues away from Midgard (and making it rain won't bring it any closer); b)hammer talking to our alien boy=\=mindlink in any sence of the word.
He doesn't share Thor's immunities to magic AFAIK. And thus freeze spell that held in place both Zauriel and Etrigan (high level angel and demon respectively) would make sure Billy the Alien Boy stands still for THAT.
http://img354.imageshack.us/i/28096454.jpg/
Beta Ray Bill<<<<Starbreaker.

To sum everything up-

You can't prove you have magical absorbtion powers;

Your spirits are highly useless cause of being containable;

Bill certainly CAN'T use all the Thor's feats and doesn't share his immunities due to his Gaea birthright

Your guys can be magically frozen in place long enough for simple, non-sentient constructs to play havoc with you (and those constructs can move on multiples of lightspeed)

Long story short... ban on Oblivion ark'esque stuff doesn't hurt your strategy at all, while you didn't prove Michael having Elisabeth's INBORN powers and hammer being able to give Bill such a plethora of knowledge without Thor being nearby (hammer link=\=mindlink to the actual person present on the battlefield).

Charlotte DeBel

OUR, not YOUR. Yours is in trouble with more than dubious use of Elisabeth's and Thor's feats smile

Charlotte DeBel

Communication feats are discarded there... range is irrelevant, if you want to talk about range... well, Tangent Superman has heard Hal Jordan from another UNIVERSE... that's better than galaxy-vast.

Also, what the hell does the range have to do with raw power or skill? I've already posted what happens when opponents are switched- Comet gets the same treatment Despero got there:
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0012eo3.jpg
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0013cr6.jpg/
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0014dh7.jpg/

She was able to kick J'onn out of her head while suffering major damage of soul AND being comatose.
http://img413.imageshack.us/i/jlablackbaptism109yi5.jpg/
http://img509.imageshack.us/i/jlablackbaptism110yh0.jpg/

Or mindwipe him
http://img143.imageshack.us/i/jla115007ig7.jpg/

Martian Manhunter was stated to have one of the fastest minds in JLA...akin to Superman and Wonder Woman.

Tangent Superman has no issues with magically protected minds (Tangent Batman, sort of Wandering Jew cursed by Merlin and transformed by him into magical being). He can mindrape Shaman with the greatest ease.
http://img341.imageshack.us/i/tangentjla18ck6.jpg/
http://img341.imageshack.us/i/tangentjla19ra5.jpg/

Also, when you talk about Talisman, you talk about Liz in 99% of cases...should have drafted her if that's the case. Her father was never a true Messiah...just the keeper of the Circlet. So unless you can state he can replicate ALL of Elisabeth's powers, her feats are highly irrelevant.
As far as spirit trapping goes, well... Kyle has next to no idea how to do that consciously, and that's just the reference that the ring serves as tool for that. Capability showing...
Red Tornado showing is more relevant in that case, since it's the trapping of air elemental...

=================
If we're going by recaps... well, let's do that.

Our stealth

Magical invisibility
http://img77.imageshack.us/i/adventurecomics41925fp7.jpg/
Intangibility if rain is used to deal with latter
http://img6.imageshack.us/i/93794277.jpg/
Same thing just with ring
http://g.imagehost.org/view/0359/20_6

Magical dusts?
Cancelled via ring
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0652/GLC_032_03
Or via magic
http://img264.imageshack.us/i/freemindseb9.png/
http://img339.imageshack.us/i/jlaincarnations433wc8.jpg/

As for Shaman being capable of everything his daughter did... why did he seem amazed at her powers?
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/A_Flight2/AlphaFlight18-20.jpg
She's NATURAL with her powers, and the Circlet is an amplifier and not the thing that makes Talisman (by your own words). She was allowed to pull out the Circlet because she was Talisman (the Prophesied One) and not became Talisman by putting on the Circlet. You got it backwards, darling.

Also, if you're depending on having your hands and mouth free to do your magic...
Something like that created on lightspeed keeps you utterly defenceless for say mindrape
http://img228.imageshack.us/i/stealspowerxl7.jpg/
http://img225.imageshack.us/i/stealspower2ix1.jpg/

And the proof of legality for said lightspeed boost was given, so...Shaman can try and absorb any magic casted on him, there's still non-magical way to beat him.

psycho gundam

@twoyoungmen

-the sleeping dust

easily falls under the ring's re-programmed atmospheric countermeasures in which our team is encased in (see: above post on his shields), and you're forgetting zatanna has already cleansed the atmosphere with a powerful spell.
(Charlotte has gone over this earlier)

-handful of baubles

meh, you need them to be dispersed by the north winds....too bad europa is out of their jurisdiction, the spirit staff can't make long distance calls.(of the spirit has to hitchhike to europa, which ever one is up to you)

note* shaman's winds are dependent on his proximity to the spirits he calls apon to aid him, thus the long wait

shaman isn't a big concern imo, just get up in his face (invisible constructs) and bust him in his shit ala michael pointer:

http://yfrog.com/jl47134826j

kyle's mind is being supplanted by TS whom has removed the ring from john stewert's hand and claimed it as his own, plus we had kyle grant him one in prep AND had them share experience including past kyle feats, the rings are going nowhere lol.

our defenses are legendary and have been tested by many, they aren't going to crumble before lesser assaults especially now with greater focus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as i posted earlier, kyle has gone through the shielding of solaris, whom is a notch above michael twoyoungmen in power, you can even throw captain comet in their to back him up and solaris still has him beat.

so in essence our offense is able to attack your characters since we're invisible, and we have the juice to get in your shields provided we have the will to do so (which we do).

http://h.imagehost.org/0538/LegendsOfTheDCU38p09.jpg

literally drops bombs on a dude

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0897/glonemillion16
http://a.imagehost.org/view/0867/glonemillion17

a fresh ring charges starman's space station and his ring is still able to use his ring's abilities

http://h.imagehost.org/0368/GreenLantern-Annual7-20.jpg
http://h.imagehost.org/0410/GreenLantern-Annual7-21.jpg

takes a hit by, and counterattacks nekron (the man behind blackest night)

http://h.imagehost.org/0802/GreenLantern132-15.jpg

a tiny crack in your shields, that's all we need

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0033/JLA_61_pg06

shaman creates a force field for miles, kyle creates a construct that's even larger and keeps it moving

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0587/Green_Lantern_v3_134_08

creates big humanoid constructs to beat down nero's fear forces

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0879/Green_Lantern_142-15

heals himself (could easily be aplied to his comrades)

http://a.imagehost.org/0630/pg0022im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0021/pg0023im.jpg

pwns ganthet's sinestro construct, would have done more but superman calms him down.

http://g.imagehost.org/view/0153/Green_Lantern_0-20
http://g.imagehost.org/view/0452/Green_Lantern_0-21

bye europa smile

http://a.imagehost.org/0244/pg0009im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0955/pg0010im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0851/pg0011im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0664/pg0012im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0051/pg0013im.jpg

hi europa smile

(if we want)

so yes, kyle definitely has the power to take shaman and company out hard and fast (pause) even without the others bracing his mental fortitude.

TheKahn

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i for one am still fighting the "daxamite debacle", creating mobile, flying bricks well within the rules, kyle's just damn good at it:

You're team was told to drop this issue but you've mentioned it twice since an official decision was made. Sorry, but I'm going to dock your team 1 official post. You now have a total of 9 not 10 for this round.

psycho gundam

Originally posted by TheKahn
You're team was told to drop this issue but you've mentioned it twice since an official decision was made. Sorry, but I'm going to dock your team 1 official post. You now have a total of 9 not 10 for this round. banning daxamite like constructs is fine and dandy.

no offense but maybe you mistakenly failed to notice quotations on "daxamite debacle" cause we are not using daxamites. they were just humanoid constructs that fall under gl constructs in which you allowed in the rules. after the daxamites we wanted to use got nixed just like the skuttlebutt vessel and such we had to change em.

plus the ruling is quite vague in it's bounds, a green lantern without the ability to create diverse constructs is unheard of and the actual banned constructs were replaced by not so banned ones.

what's the big d?

TheKahn

By my count both teams are done with their posts. I'll PM the other judges and let them know they can start posting their decisions.

illadelph12

Deliberating...

TheKahn

Insomnia has struck again, so I'll go ahead and cast my vote.

Overall
This mostly seemed like a defensive match involving the team's two magic users which was somewhat disappointing given the firepower available to both teams. At this level, I assume top tier magician can counter each other (especially when they're from different universes and thus have never interacted). Ultimately, I just felt like you could have switched out Zatanna and Talisman's teammates and the majority of the fight would have remained the same.

Originality
Blaze/KM - 2/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 3/5

I was a little disappointed with Blaze/KM's initial strategy. They didn't seem to mesh their characters together very well. They did take reasonable precautions by putting up several types of defenses but there was just too little interaction between the teammates. Also, we've seen the baubles and sleep powder before (lets see something new!)

Gundam/Charlotte did a wonderful job of meshing their characters diverse power-sets together. I could see from their initial post why they drafted each character and that they had a clear plan for each. Sadly, much of their plan involved a tactic that was judged to be illegal or else they'd have a higher score here.

Effectiveness
Blaze/KM - 3/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 1/5

As I said, the seemed like defensive magic battle from the start leaving some questions about the team's offensive capabilities in my mind. Still both teams did a commendable job with providing scans to back up their claims and I was convinced to most give them the benefit of the doubt as a result. Sadly, Gundam/Charlotte was again hurt by the fact that so much of their offensive strategy seemed to center around the illegal constructs - they just never seemed to recover from them being taken away

Debating Skill
Blaze/KM - 9/10
Gundam/Charlotte - 9/10

KM and Charlotte seemed to carry most of the load in this debate and they did a exemplary job in my mind. Although they had some heated back-and-forths, each remained civil and it was obvious that they read their opponent's posts carefully and were sure to counter each major point with both counter-arguments and scans when possible. Really, those two did an outstanding job.

Winner
This was a very, very close match in my mind and it took me some time to come to a decision. But by a slim margin, I'm giving it to Blaze/KM. I honestly hope the other matches I judge are not this close. Good job to all involved.

-K-M-

Originally posted by TheKahn
I was a little disappointed with Blaze/KM's initial strategy.

Yeah not suprized, as keep in mind we didn't even know what we could do in the initial post.

psycho gundam

Originally posted by TheKahn
Sadly, much of their plan involved a tactic that was judged to be illegal or else they'd have a higher score here. wink

still waiting on that reasonable explanation posted in my pm box......

stick out tongue

Digi

grargh, i gotta judge, huh? I want to give this the respect it deserves, so Thursday. Wednesday I'm too busy. hopefully that doesn't inconvenience anyone.

illadelph12

I'll have my decision posted after work.

illadelph12

Delph's Vote

After reading through the battle a few times I found some key issues with both plans. Once the exchange over capabilities began it seemed like an attention to detail was completely tossed out the window by both teams. For starters, taking both plans into account, both teams came to the battlefield magically and technologically cloaked and shielded. Neither team would be able to pinpoint the other instantaneously or effect a quick strike attack, but that became the basis of argument. Moreover, a spell is cast by Mungi that keeps both teams grounded, and Beta Ray Bill has unleashed a supernatural deluge and storm (which was never rescinded) that will flood the planet. This was at the onset of battle and never accounted for in practically any of the subsequent posts and tactics. Due to this point and oversight I have to give low marks to both sides in effectiveness and debating. Debating isn't just about making points, it's also about making sense and not tripping over your previous comments in subsequent posts.

Next issue is the "my magician is more powerful than yours" stalemate. Comparing feats is in of itself futile because neither character has a common reference point. Saying "my character takes down elder gods" while the other says "well my character defended against a powerful demon" isn't going to settle anything. Similar situation with the level of evolution of Captain Comet vs. Harvey. Far too many strawmen met their fate in these exchanges, and too many scans were taken out of their context, and nothing was really resolved.

Then lightning struck (and this pun is intended):

Kris presented a tactic which actually seemed somewhat viable.

He claimed that Stormbreaker could absorb the energy and magic of the oppositions shielding and presented proof which was never refuted. I didn't buy the ploy that since Odin created Stormbreaker to give it's bearer the abilities of Thor that Bill would do everything Thor would. I'd need feats to follow that line of logic, and frankly the hammer apparently "speaking" to Bill (stated by Bill during narration) and giving him info on Earth, Thor, and Odin's experiences with Galactus doesn't in my opinion mean that the hammer would bestow all of Thor's instincts, experiences, and battle tactics into Bill. At this juncture in the battle it's not really necessary. Given the battle tactics presented and the feasibility thereof, in my opinion, the use of Stormbreaker's energy absorption abilities proved to be the trump card that swayed the battle in KM/Kris's favor, and I give them the victory.

As for the point system allotments:

Originality:
Charlotte/Gundam 1/5
Mungi/Kris 1/5

Coming into battle shielded/cloaked and blasting from behind said shielding is so 2004. Step ya'll game up.

Effectiveness:
Charlotte/Gundam 2/5
Mungi/Kris 3/5

IMO, both teams spent too much time in circular arguments, and hedged their bets on obvious plans. Luckily Kris pulled a trump card in the end to sway things in their favor, but it started out lackluster (and flooded).

Debating Skills:
Charlotte/Gundam 6/10
Mungi/Kris 8/10

Mungi is always supremely organized. I always enjoy reading his posts. It makes his lines of logic easy to follow. Kris helped by staying on message and not taking away from the established plan. I was surprised at the lack of attention to detail though. Particularly in their own plan of attack. It was exacerbated by being baited into the "my character can do this and yours can't" exchange that ate up most of the posts.

As for Charlotte and Gundam, it appeared like they had scheduling/communication issues or something. Didn't seem like a coordinated attack. Gundam needs to refine his style for tourneys. Mainly just inexperience. It's more about presenting info and tactics than going for cheap pops. Let the plan make your opponent look stupid homie.

That's a wrap.

-Delph Digler

Digi

Some points, followed by the vote and numbers:

....

- Don't use imagehost please. It kept trying to give me a virus. Serious as I take these things, my PC's security is more important. This is the last match I'll click on imagehost links. Imageshack or photobucket, please.

- I've seen Thor feats used for Bill before. As a general rule, I dislike it. The amount of "talking" the hammer does to Bill seemed like information and physical abilities, not advanced battle tactics or new strategies. You guys dressed it up prettier than I've seen before, but pigs, lipstick, that schtick. Be careful what you try to impart to Bill via those couple scans, because I'm not the only judge who will ignore Thor's more exotic feats being used for Bill.

- The energy soak of hammers has long been a plague upon GLs in tourneys. That much isn't in question. The trend continues.

- BN #6 made ring duplication the rage, but there's a lot of caveats about "in times of great distress" and "being sanctioned by the Guardians" etc. etc. in regards to their newfound powers. Is there rock solid proof that duplication is always possible, not just at specific times? I actually didn't discount the duplication, because I don't think it has any bearing on the match. People forget how extremely hard it is to wield a ring. Telepathic link or not, a GL ring in the hands of anyone who hasn't been a GL would be akin to giving a 2-year-old a monster truck.

- Charlotte/gundam's team has more raw power, imo. Talisman's thing is versatility, and I've never been supremely impressed with Comet. Fact is, though, that Kris and Mungi did a better job providing effective counters for the other team. Since tourneys are about repping your own team, not providing a completely unbiased view, it often comes down to not who might actually win in, say, the vs. forum but who does the better job in the 4-5 posts given to them. And by the end I was pretty convinced that, for example, Shaman had a distinct edge on Zee, Comet had enough of an edge against GL's to make some noise, etc. etc.

- Lol at comparing telepathic cock sizes..."This is a galaxy-wide feat!" "Oh yeah, well this guy heard him from another universe, bub!" You guys have telepathy. Noted. Now stfu next time please, and stay relevant.

- And despite the admirable and already-mentioned clarity of Mungi's posts, I will say that a quote from the other team more often wouldn't hurt. Was occasionally hard to know exactly what you were responding to.

- As a clerical matter, what was decided on Scuttlebutt?

Originality
Blaze/KM - 1/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 1/5

Effectiveness
Blaze/KM - 3/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 1/5

Debating Skill
Blaze/KM - 6/10
Gundam/Charlotte - 3/10

I intend to have the lowest numbers of any judge. Gotta earn those points, poozers!

Vote for Kris/Mungi

Kris Blaze

Digi was the only one who got the debate score right no expression

Thanks for all your votes Judges. For those of you who don't know, this was actually my very first tourney/battlezone match ever. It feels really good to pull home a victory in my first one. Especially when it involved such weathered debaters such as Charlotte, Psycho and KM. Hat off to all of you, and also to our respected opponents. You put up a fight at least, and that's more than most people are able to against the powerful Team Social Healthcare. Awesome judges and a great opposing team, I could not have hoped for a better first tourney experience.

Starscream M

batdude and bentley didn't post their opinions yet...I guess it isn't necessary.

Bentley

Sorry for being late, I intended to be more active here but I barely could given that I'm in vacations traveling and stuff, I'm here though so lets see...

I guess my vote is not needed anymore, but I was going to vote Blaze and KM anyways, so there is that.

My reasons for those who care:

After so much messing around with the rules (whats with KM saying he controls Zatanna each post, I thought mind control was banned?), and so much circular debating (I literally thought I was rereading a post at some point), my choice came mostly to which strategy was more likely. I wouldnt accept Bill using Thor's feats most of the time but Mundi and Blaze kept it simple. I guess that keeping things simply when things were a mess was the best way to sound believable.

I didnt love the strategy of mind sharing Kyle's experience in order to have his experience as a green lantern, I didnt see any scan suggesting that TS could do that, and in my book phsychic power doesnt equal finesse nor matching other telepaths that have actual feats doing this kind of stuff. I still ran with it, but for other posters running psychics I would not let this kind of thing ruin your strategy in case you try it.

The rest was said by the other judges. This ain't about having the strongest character, but to blend their feats into a coherent and original debate. I hope to have the chance to read further matches.

Originality
Blaze/KM - 2/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 2/5

Not much to say here. Skip the go-blast strategies and squeeze your characters.

Effectiveness
Blaze/KM - 3/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 1/5

Neither plan is particularly effective or not, but KM and Blaze offered more things from their characters.

Debating Skill
Blaze/KM - 6/10
Gundam/Charlotte - 3/10

Gotta say that I expected a lot more countering, more weird interactions between power and less straight go-blast strategies. Overpowering is in my opinion, not a good debate to have, since here rules arent those of the VS forums.

Vote for Blaze and Mundi. Good luck guys.

-K-M-

Spirit control is not mind control.

Charlotte DeBel

Originally posted by -K-M-
Spirit control is not mind control.

When applied on person's astral projection and not on sentient force of nature? I beg to differ...

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
When applied on person's astral projection and not on sentient force of nature? I beg to differ...
Telepathy involves the mind. That's not up for debate.

Charlotte DeBel

It seems hypocritical to allow voodoesque stuff (mind control via soul control) and ban telepathy (how is magic better in the SAME stuff).

Cause what Mungi attempted is not some Spirit Test-like bending of spirits of nature. That's attempt to apply voodoesque manipulations on the soul of fellow sorcerers.
He's Spirit Binder, not soul\astral projection binder.

Anyways, congrats to you guys. I wasn't interested in winning that match... or to say better, I didn't care whether I win or lose.

But I'm going to make sure judges sort out the differences between voodoesque mind control via soul control and plain old telepathic mind control. "We take the souls of opposing teams under our control and make them kill themselves"=good FTW strategy. It's legality=doubtful.

-K-M-

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
When applied on person's astral projection and not on sentient force of nature? I beg to differ...

Its not, as the spirits still have their mind they are just compelled to oblidge to help the Talisman. Its not mind control far from it, they even show this in Alpha Flight.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
It seems hypocritical to allow voodoesque stuff (mind control via soul control) and ban telepathy (how is magic better in the SAME stuff).

He's Spirit Binder, not soul\astral projection binder.

But I'm going to make sure judges sort out the differences between voodoesque mind control via soul control and plain old telepathic mind control. "We take the souls of opposing teams under our control and make them kill themselves"=good FTW strategy. It's legality=doubtful.

It's not telepathy *facepalm*

Actually its the same thing as he has controlled astral projections before, hence why I said it was a bad mistake to do that. Shouldn't have picked a character so obscure as I have to explain every little detail erm

.

Talisman can't do that, the only reason I could do it here is you attacked me in spirit form directly. If you didn't, you would have been safe from spirit control. I highly doubt anyone else is going to try to go astral form against Talisman to be honest, nor was it a key stragedy in our plan you just made the mistake of going astral form which was to our advantage.