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I just read on Wookieepedia that Darth Sidious was not the only force user to summon a force storm, and that Darth Rivan was also able to summon one through his Darkstaff. The storm supposedly transported him through time.

Wonder what the source on that is. Most of Rivan's stuff came from the Star Wars RPG, though.

thanks rex, for beating me to it. Wiki isn't really a source.

Its from one of the adventures from the RPG and is thus sadly canon.

which RPG? KOTOR? confused a bit.

Originally posted by truejedi
which RPG? KOTOR? confused a bit.

The tabletop RPG. There are published canon adventures for people to RP.

this is very sad. I am very sad. Sadness all around.

Well, Rivan needed the Darkstaff to aid him in conjuring one obviously. And the result was not so flattering.

What is interesting to note is the fact that Force Storms can also be used to time travel.

Freedon Nadd has also been stated to be able to summon them, and in the Tales of the Jedi Companion it's listed as a Jedi ability (while forming a distinction between Jedi and Sith abilities).

Originally posted by Weltall
Freedon Nadd has also been stated to be able to summon them, and in the Tales of the Jedi Companion it's listed as a Jedi ability (while forming a distinction between Jedi and Sith abilities).

Seeing as how Sidious canonically was the first and only one to perform this feat without the use of a weapon, I fail to see how you're making any sense. Unless you're talking about an upgrade of force lightning. There's no evidence that Freedon Nadd could summon wormholes.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1129/naddzo3.th.png

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9889/swordwz9.png

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7243/webdf6.png

Also, we've been over this before and never has Sidious been stated to be the first and only person to be able to summon them. He was the first and perhaps only person to have displayed it, sure, however it's canonical fact that the technique isn't exclusive to his personal set of abilities, and that Freedon Nadd could also create them.

And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.

I believe the edit function works quite nicely...

The actual reference from the sourcebook is entirely helpful, thank you.

Originally posted by REXXXX
I believe the edit function works quite nicely...

The actual reference from the sourcebook is entirely helpful, thank you.

*Comment about ban function not working.*

Message me if you think I should be aware of something, please...

EDIT- Just kidding, Weltall finally popped up on the sock checker as being horribly socky.

Wow, that one lasted a while.

it did. I thought we had perhaps finally made peace.

Two months... that has got to be a new record.

I feel guilty though for breaking Nebs good run.

Freedon Nadd's use of Force Storms--a sketchy hypothesis at best--taken aside, it should also be noted for reference that the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia states that Force users (Jedi I believe) have previously combined their power to conjure them.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
--a sketchy hypothesis at best--

Elaborate.

Why is my aviatar not showing?!

Ah there it is.

A tad offtopic, and it's not showing

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
Elaborate.
The book states that he has knowledge of these powers, not that he has the ability to perform them on a whim and unaided. This doesn't disprove that Sidious is the only known Force user to summon and control Force Storms with his own power.

Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG under no condition beyond what is stated under the description of the power. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.

As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion; that he can summon them on a whim is something that cannot be verified, but something that was never originally in question. To the original point in question - no, Sidious is not the only person who can be said to be possessive of the abiltiy to create Force Storms.

That being said, has it actually been proven that Sidious can summon them completely under his own power? I recall somebody (Glentract I think) once observing that he carried a Kaibur Crystal (a power enhancing device?) on him at all times and that he used the Eclipse as a mechanism for controlling the Force energies at his disposal, though I can't entirely speak on the matter from my own first hand level of knowledge.

There is no source to my knowledge that confirms Glentract's ancient claims regarding Palpatine's ability to conjure Force Storms. Nowhere is the Emperor confirmed or suggested to have a device or artifact augmenting his power.

Much as some try to escape it, Palpatine is the only Force user in canon to be a known practitioner of the Force Storm, and the only one able to conjure them without aid or effort. It's incontrovertible and, rather like Nadd's knowledge of the Storms, not up for discussion.

As Elok Quintly mentioned, the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia mentions that Jedi were able to combine their powers to summon Force Storms, suggesting that Freedon Nadd (unlike the Emperor) was unable to do so on his own.

Accept it and move on.

Originally posted by Gideon
Much as some try to escape it, Palpatine is the only Force user in canon to be a known practitioner of the Force Storm,

As I've already established this is quite simply incorrect. Nadd has been confirmed to possess knowledge of the technique, and given the context, the ability to use it without assistance. How much time and effort is required on his part is unspecified.



To my knowledge, that Sidious can conjure them without aid technically hasn't been confirmed, only assumed (and quite possible disprovable).

Nonetheless, Freedon Nadd has been confirmed to be capable of conjuring them without aid, so at best, Palpatine can be said to join him on the list.



I don't recall a source documenting how much effort it took Sidious to summon them. I believe it's indicated that he could do so with little effort or time in the graphic novel, but again it's entirely possible that the amount of effort was mostly hidden and not elaborated upon, and that an amount of time passed that the immobile nature of the medium and the lack of detail in the writing were unable to precisely depict.



It's Nadd's knowledge of and ability to use the technique that's not up for discussion.



This doesn't follow. Unless you're operating under a hidden premise this doesn't appear to make sense. That Jedi were documented to be able to collectively summon Force Storms doesn't deny the possibility that other Force Users were able to do so singelhandedly, or that the collective effort on the part of the Jedi was even required.

From what I can see, the interpretation of your argument that makes the most sense would be that, by "Jedi," the source material was referring to all members that could apply to the group, that Freedon Nadd, being a former Jedi, would fit into that group (and apply for his level of ability during the years after his time as a Jedi), and that the collective effort was in all cases a requirement. Or that in this case, the term Jedi was in reference to all practitioners of the Force, which would include Nadd, but would also include Sidious (unless Sidious had been excepted in the source material).

Or that, because it required (again, something not actually stated) the efforts of multiple Jedi, that it would be unlikely that Freedon Nadd, given his established level/{lack} of ability, would be able to singlehandedly summon them?

Regardless, it's been confirmed that Freedon Nadd can summon them unassisted, and at best, you might have presented something that would otherwise have determined a certain probability that he couldn't.



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For the record, I'm pretty sure that the Force Storms that multiple Jedi were documented to have collectively summoned was a different ability altogether.



Only if you ask nicely.

Reported.

What you've established is inconsequential. Freedon Nadd is said to possess knowledge of Force Storms; nowhere is it indicated that he can conjure them alone, much less unaided. The extent of his knowledge of the technique may very well be that he knows how to spell it. All you have is an implication; which does not a valid argument make.



Your knowledge is painfully limited. That Glentract mistakenly claimed that Sidious was only able to conjure Force Storms via a Kaiburr crystal or the focusing mechanism of the Eclipse does not mean that either claim is factual; Glentract also claimed that Marka Ragnos was an unstoppable Force magus capable of playing ping-pong with planets. He was wrong.

Valid arguments are not made by assuming facts not in evidence. Until you can disprove the notion that Sidious can conjure them without aid, we are moving on.



Until you can provide an outright statement that Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid (or at all), we're moving on.



You always did have a selective memory.

"Through a simple act of will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires mere thought and inclination, I admit I am not able to completely control this phenomenon." (the Essential Guide to the Force, page 179.)

Translation: he can do it whenever he wants with negligible effort.



No, just the knowledge.

As far as the rest is concerned, the Force Storms summoned by other collective Jedi are the same energy storms that can only be created by Palpatine.

A comprehensive synopsis of your argument is that you claim Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid because a random sourcebook says that he possesses knowledge of the technique. Moreover, you conveniently ignore previously established information (the effort required by Palpatine to conjure Force Storms) and assume facts not in evidence (the entirety of the Nadd argument, Palpatine's mysterious "Kaiburr Crystal," ect).

To recap mine, the sourcebook does not outright state that Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms at all, let alone without aid. Sidious, on the other hand, is confirmed to be able to conjure them alone "with mere thought and inclination." The entirety of my argument is, by the way, based on canon evidence and assumes nothing.

Which is why my argument prevails. If you'd like to address this some other time, make sure you have something other than fallacies and logical blunders in your arsenal.

Originally posted by Gideon
What you've established is inconsequential. Freedon Nadd is said to possess knowledge of Force Storms; nowhere is it indicated that he can conjure them alone, much less unaided. The extent of his knowledge of the technique may very well be that he knows how to spell it. All you have is an implication; which does not a valid argument make.



Your knowledge is painfully limited. That Glentract mistakenly claimed that Sidious was only able to conjure Force Storms via a Kaiburr crystal or the focusing mechanism of the Eclipse does not mean that either claim is factual; Glentract also claimed that Marka Ragnos was an unstoppable Force magus capable of playing ping-pong with planets. He was wrong.

Valid arguments are not made by assuming facts not in evidence. Until you can disprove the notion that Sidious can conjure them without aid, we are moving on.



Until you can provide an outright statement that Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid (or at all), we're moving on.



You always did have a selective memory.

"Through a simple act of will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires mere thought and inclination, I admit I am not able to completely control this phenomenon." (the Essential Guide to the Force, page 179.)

Translation: he can do it whenever he wants with negligible effort.



No, just the knowledge.

As far as the rest is concerned, the Force Storms summoned by other collective Jedi are the same energy storms that can only be created by Palpatine.

A comprehensive synopsis of your argument is that you claim Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid because a random sourcebook says that he possesses knowledge of the technique. Moreover, you conveniently ignore previously established information (the effort required by Palpatine to conjure Force Storms) and assume facts not in evidence (the entirety of the Nadd argument, Palpatine's mysterious "Kaiburr Crystal," ect).

To recap mine, the sourcebook does not outright state that Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms at all, let alone without aid. Sidious, on the other hand, is confirmed to be able to conjure them alone "with mere thought and inclination." The entirety of my argument is, by the way, based on canon evidence and assumes nothing.

Which is why my argument prevails. If you'd like to address this some other time, make sure you have something other than fallacies and logical blunders in your arsenal.

Owned like a white guy at a Cinco de Mayo festival.

Now that that's cleared up, I leave it to DS to handle any further responses. I'm pretty much retired from debating on here and have no desire to get caught up in a protracted argument.

Originally posted by Gideon
Now that that's cleared up, I leave it to DS to handle any further responses. I'm pretty much retired from debating on here and have no desire to get caught up in a protracted argument.

While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I'm pretty much done here as well. In regards to Nebaris, the report function works nicely.

The Kaiburr Crystal rigmarole is SuperShadow fanon and should not warrant any mention.

Originally posted by Gideon
What you've established is inconsequential. Freedon Nadd is said to possess knowledge of Force Storms; nowhere is it indicated that he can conjure them alone, much less unaided. The extent of his knowledge of the technique may very well be that he knows how to spell it.

Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;



It is not an implication; it is the only interpretation that the context allows.



It's a good thing that no such claim was made then (Glentracts purportedly mistaken claims equating to fact).



In your opinion.



Stating that Sidious - to my recollection - hasn't been confirmed to be able to conjure a Force Storm without aid =/= assuming that he can't conjure a Force Storm without aid.



We'll move on when I say we can (or if you finally decide to ask nicely). A claim was never made on my part that Sidious couldn't conjure them without aid; just that it hadn't been confirmed that he could. As it stands proof hasn't been given for either the claim that he definitely can or cannot; as such my actual claim (that it hasn't been confirmed), as far as what evidence has been presented in this thread, remains correct.



Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;

Think of me as your teacher Gideon; don't run away from my lessons, embrace them.



If we were to take Palpatine's words at face value and ignore the fact that his statements are subject to hyperbole, dishonesty, or human error (the last one being an admittedly safe assumption in this case, but the former ones not).



Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No..



Not that this has any bearing on my argument whatsoever, but do you have any proof for this claim? The name has been used to describe numerous techniques.



Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;



Palpatine's statements do not equate to established fact, and they were being ignored because they served no purpose with respect to the point being made.



Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;



No assumption was made; I remember mention of such a device but explicitly stated that I could not personally verify it and brought it up in case there was some validity to it that somebody else would be able to confirm. Questioning the existence of something =/= assuming that it exists.

Then going on to state that it hasn't been confirmed that Sidious can conjure Force Storms unaided (per the evidence presented in this thread) was not an assumption, it was an expression of the facts.



Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;



If we were to take Palpatine's words at face value and ignore the fact that his statements are subject to hyperbole, dishonesty, or human error (the last one being an admittedly safe assumption in this case, but the former ones not).



Ok, I'll take your word for it.

I'll ignore the fact that your argument not only assumes that Palpatine's own statements are entirely immune from human error, dishonesty or hyperbole, not to mention that shockingly bad non sequitur (which you thankfully seem to have abandoned) which would rely on a number of assumptions to even come close to making logical sense, but Ill also ignore the assumptions that he can conjure them without assistance (and because I'm being nice I'll ignore the burden of proof fallacies made in conjunction with the above mentioned logical blunder as well).



Name one.

Your straw man arguments =/= my fallacies and logical blunders.

BTW, Sexy? I forbid you from responding. This is Gideon's argument.

BTW, Quintus? This still remains to be substantiated; get to that.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Freedon Nadd's use of Force Storms--a sketchy hypothesis at best

You're forgetting one thing...you have no power here.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
The Kaiburr Crystal rigmarole is SuperShadow fanon and should not warrant any mention.

You are a liar (and a coward)!

The Kaiburr Crystal has appeared in numerous sources, most notably Splinter of the Mind's Eye (which also happens to be its first appearence). According to Glentract Luke kept one half inside his lightsaber and Sidious carried the other half on a pendant (which he later recovered during the Dark Empire saga).

I have plenty of power... and you totally interrupted my run (I was looking to make a record).

Splinter of the Mind's Eye is so bad it hardly deserves to be canon.

Is that the book where Luke and Leia finally get it on out of curiosity?

SOTME is considered n-canon I believe.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
SOTME is considered n-canon I believe. So not-canon

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
Is that the book where Luke and Leia finally get it on out of curiosity? Hell yes, luke is a disgusting character that f*cks his own sister.

At least bane doesn't screw his own fathers rectum... unlike mcbeefington that does his sisters arse. mmmmmm

joke, right? about luke/leia?

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
You are a liar (and a coward)!

The Kaiburr Crystal has appeared in numerous sources, most notably Splinter of the Mind's Eye (which also happens to be its first appearence). According to Glentract Luke kept one half inside his lightsaber and Sidious carried the other half on a pendant (which he later recovered during the Dark Empire saga).
You misconstrue my point. The Kaiburr crystal is canon; Sidious's use of it is Super Shadow fanon. Glentract is not a reputable source at all and no canon sources--aside from fanon--back up his claims. However, he is partly right in that Luke did keep the Kaiburr crystal. He used it as a teaching aid at the Jedi Praxuem, and shards of it were used as focusing crystals. Lumiya used one for her lightwhip.

Also, Splinter of the Mind's Eye is c-level canon.

Addendum: The Dark Empire sourcebook and the Dark Empire endnotes all support Palpatine's claim that he is able to conjure the storms with a simple act of will.

And my name is not "Quintus".

Given there are three different types of force storms now, IE:
1. The wormholes Palpatine summons
2. Literal 'storms' in the atmosphere
3. Really, really powerful force lightning bursts

Where are we getting that Nadd knew the first there? Because nothing indicates that. And databook stats are traditionally not even looked at in canon.

Originally posted by truejedi
joke, right? about luke/leia?

I haven't actually read the book but according to Darth Glentract there is definite sex involved.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Given there are three different types of force storms now, IE:
1. The wormholes Palpatine summons
2. Literal 'storms' in the atmosphere
3. Really, really powerful force lightning bursts

Where are we getting that Nadd knew the first there? Because nothing indicates that. And databook stats are traditionally not even looked at in canon.

Look at the description, it's quite clearly the same one that Palpatine uses:

**cannot post the link, it's the second image on the first page of this thread and can be found in Weltall's second post**

And it's not a gameplay stat; it's telling you what abilities he possesses in his arsenal while maintaining a storyline context.

Originally posted by Quintus
Addendum: The Dark Empire sourcebook and the Dark Empire endnotes all support Palpatine's claim that he is able to conjure the storms with a simple act of will.

Could you post some specifics? Palpatine himself describes the technique in great detail in the sources that you mention and as he describes it an organised procedure involving the direction of Force energies around the body is required while maintaining a controlled level of anger in its creation (), rather than simply "willing" it into existence.

This, Nebaris, illustrates precisely why no one has bothered to really debate you for years.





You've used this tactic persistently (with little effect) for the entirety of your tenure here. On the one hand, you refuse to take Palpatine's words at face value, regardless off the fact that the words come from his entry into the Telos Holocron. On the other hand, you assume the same man's words to be factual when they're taken from the very same source.

The reason why, of course, is obvious. You accept sources that can be twisted to facilitate your argument while ignoring the rest.

That is why no one regards your conclusions in debates to be valid or factual. Why no one here really regards Darth Bane to be more powerful than the likes of Luke Skywalker; why no one accepts your arguments about the Xenogears saga and Japanese fetish to be accurate. It's not an insult, just an observation.

See through you, we can.



That Palpatine mentions the philosophical and emotional requisites to summoning Force Storms does not mean that it is a controlled procedure or, to borrow your annoyingly reused phrase, "ritualistic in nature." Palpatine summoning the spirits of ancient Sith Lords and creating ripples in the Force as seen in Sithisis? That's a ritual. Darth Bane being the focal point of a storm of energy that ravaged Ruusan? That's a ritual. Luke Skywalker's telepathic call to the entirety of the Jedi Order? That's a ritual.

A Force Storm, which can be triggered "by mere thought or inclination" is not a ritual nor a controlled procedure. The very same could be said of conjuring Sith lightning, which requires immense anger and willpower.

The human error excuse does not cut it nor does it persuade anyone here of its merit. You've yet to prove your case and instead rely on double standards and fallacies to push your own agenda.

The real tragedy here is whether or not you actually believe what you're spouting.

I'm going to choose to ignore the numerous and ridiculous misdirective strategies, with a quick reminder that Xenogears' position as the greatest piece of fiction ever written -- with its only rivals being six other works that were developed by some of the same storytellers and designers -- doesn't have to be agreed upon to remain factually correct.

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
Could you post some specifics? Palpatine himself describes the technique in great detail in the sources that you mention and as he describes it an organised procedure involving the direction of Force energies around the body is required while maintaining a controlled level of anger in its creation (), rather than simply "willing" it into existence.

Where abouts exactly did I take Palpatine's words entirely factually? I asked for specifics, largely because Palpatine's words aren't automatically to be taken at face value, and that I currently don't possess information at hand that can conclusively explain the facts. The reason I brought it up was that its source w the same one that Quintus brought up, and it's doubtful that the same source(s) would give two contradictory accounts of Sidious' use of the ability (even if one account were to have been coming from the omniscient narrator and the other from Palpatine).

You, on the other hand, were treating Palpatine's account of the ability as confirmation that he could summon it in such a way.

So, no double standards.



If this is what you were referring to with the human error excuse, I was simply listing all of the conditions that would naturally cast doubt on character dialogue; I even go out of my way to say that Palpatine's words not being subject to human error in this case would be an admittedly safe assumption (given that he'd clearly be in a position to verify how quickly and easily he could create a Force Storm). The primary conditions that would cast doubt on such an account is that Palpatine's words are entirely subject to dishonesty and hyperbole, but regardless, the point is that third party accounts are not infallible and as such not to be treated as uncontestable fact.

Originally posted by Gideon
That Palpatine mentions the philosophical and emotional requisites to summoning Force Storms does not mean that it is a controlled procedure

Of course not, it's that he mentions an elaborate physical requiste in the form of a precise and controlled motion of energies while maintaining a precise and controlled emotional state that qualifies it as a controlled procedure.



I'm actually now genuinely curious as to what fallacies I have been commiting as I must have missed something. Could you point out and name at least one of them?

Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
I'm going to choose to ignore the numerous and ridiculous misdirective strategies, with a quick reminder that Xenogears' position as the greatest piece of fiction ever written -- with its only rivals being six other works that were developed by some of the same storytellers and designers -- doesn't have to be agreed upon to remain factually correct.

You are claiming, that something completely subjective (worth of a storyline) can be determined to be objectively true?

I personally think the storyline of Planescape: Torment is more entertaining than the storyline of Xenogears.

Is my opinion objectively correct? No, it isn't and neither is your fetish for JRPGs.

And by the way, your assertion that I must be a remarkably passive person because I find the storylines of WRPGs to be more compelling is one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen.

Strawman, much?

It's that you'd have to be an inhumanly passive person to be able to feel completely in control of your character given the limited nature of choice based mechanics. The argument was that WVGRPGs attempts to adapt choice based gameplay into video games makes for a poor roleplaying function given the limited nature of video games. Please, it was all made quite clear.



Well then clearly you've been blessed with absolutely dreadful taste.

The fact of the matter is that by all objective measures, Xenogears's storyline absolutely annihilates Planescape: Torment's; it's far deeper and incredibly more complex, and people that actually have good taste in these matters will recognise its far superior quality and implementation of music, far more captivating setting, better cast of characters, and superior style of storytelling.

Sock, much?

Do I need to remind everyone that you are not supposed to interact with socks when they post? If I need to I will issue 'reminders' to get everyone back to that...

Continue with the topic.