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this is anti monitor at peak.

Anti-Monitor

CoIE Anti-Monitor?
It'll probably take more than 1 shot to completely nullify him, if it's possible.

Un erases him.

UN beats either version of AM.

The embodiment of the Anti-Matter nullified? I don't think so.

Originally posted by The Nuul
UN beats either version of AM.

UN? UN is a weapon. It needs a user.

If we are talking about it's highest feat, then it should win if it can replicate the feat 2 times. Anti Monitor already took a blast that created DCU. He was really hurt after it though. So 2 shots from UN(if possible) stops AM

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
The embodiment of the Anti-Matter nullified? I don't think so. if oblivon the embodiment of complete nothingness can be nullified(which dont make sence because you cant erase nothingness) so can anti matter

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
if oblivon the embodiment of complete nothingness can be nullified so can anti matter
That's not strong enough.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
That's not strong enough.
im just saying to the guy who made the coment about anti matter being immune to nullification

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
im just saying to the guy who made the coment about anti matter being immune to nullification

All you need is matter to nullify it

Originally posted by Parmaniac
All you need is matter to nullify it then it is sent to oblivion

Originally posted by xJLxKing
UN? UN is a weapon. It needs a user.

If we are talking about it's highest feat, then it should win if it can replicate the feat 2 times. Anti Monitor already took a blast that created DCU. He was really hurt after it though. So 2 shots from UN(if possible) stops AM Spectre wasn't trying to kill Am because the heroes fates were tied in with Am's. Context.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
All you need is matter to nullify it

Not in the DCU uhuh

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
if oblivon the embodiment of complete nothingness can be nullified wut

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
wut he was nullified but it had an opposite effect, it turned his "nothingness" into a universe

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he was nullified but it had an opposite effect, it turned his "nothingness" into a universe oh

but then he still exist! (i mean as somethin that no longer not-exists...or not...**** i dunno actually )

when did that happen? (and did they use the UN?)

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
oh

but then he still exist! (i mean as somethin that no longer not-exists...or not...**** i dunno actually )

when did that happen? (and did they use the UN?)
even tho it turned a part of his nothingness into a unverse ,there will always be a "nothingness" regardless,
when not used against oblivion, everything that is nullified goes to oblivion anyway

Originally posted by quanchi112
Spectre wasn't trying to kill Am because the heroes fates were tied in with Am's. Context.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Spectre wasn't trying to kill Am because the heroes fates were tied in with Am's. Context.
That might be true but it seems rather dense of the Spectre to avoid killing the AM just because the heroes would die as well. What's a few deaths compared to the infinite deaths the Anti-Monitor had already caused?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
That might be true but it seems rather dense of the Spectre to avoid killing the AM just because the heroes would die as well. What's a few deaths compared to the infinite deaths the Anti-Monitor had already caused? It was noted specifically in the story so why put it in there? Is this another comment you want to ignore just because you don't like it.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
If you read the comic you wouldn't be laughing iphone you would be agreeing with me as I am right as usual.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you read the comic you wouldn't be laughing iphone you would be agreeing with me as I am right as usual.
The fact that you believe you are always right, and no one else knows what they are doing shows your ignorance. Please, stop gloating. You got nothing to gloat about on internet especially since you are 26+ of age


Do you really think that Spectre was summoned not to kill AM? The dude is responsible for the most amount of deaths in DCU history. That alone warrants him a one way ticket to be judged by Spectre. I wouldn't expect you to know anything about COIE considering you haven't read it

Originally posted by xJLxKing
The fact that you believe you are always right, and no one else knows what they are doing shows your ignorance. Please, stop gloating. You got nothing to gloat about on internet especially since you are 26+ of age


Do you really think that Spectre was summoned not to kill AM? The dude is responsible for the most amount of deaths in DCU history. That alone warrants him a one way ticket to be judged by Spectre. I wouldn't expect you to know anything about COIE considering you haven't read it My age has nothing to do with anything. Really, why the obsession?

If you read the story you'd realize I am literally taking a crucial point directly from the story. You wanting to talk about the Spectre's actions is irrelevant to how he was portrayed and the circumstances in coie.

I read it, but don't think you comprehended it. Not the first time nor the last I am afraid, iphone.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Crisis_10_25-1.jpg

I was right.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
We cannot kill him or out comrades in arms will...all our friends whose power he steals will die....


I love when proof stares you right in the face and you deny it. Feel the burn.

Originally posted by quanchi112
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Crisis_10_25-1.jpg

I was right.

They didn't know the villains would fail. If the Spectre had foreseen the villains' failure he wouldn't have pulled any punches.

And Quan good posters are characterized by a certain level of maturity which you lack. Hence why everyone brings up that you're thirty years old, you don't act like it at all, if anything you act like my little 16 year old brother's friends.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We cannot kill him or out comrades in arms will...all our friends whose power he steals will die....


I love when proof stares you right in the face and you deny it. Feel the burn.
LMAO
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9335/am40tt0.jpg
It's called backfire

Originally posted by Omega Vision
They didn't know the villains would fail. If the Spectre had foreseen the villains' failure he wouldn't have pulled any punches.

And Quan good posters are characterized by a certain level of maturity which you lack. Hence why everyone brings up that you're thirty years old, you don't act like it at all, if anything you act like my little 16 year old brother's friends. The point is punches were pulled so saying he survived the Spectre is taking the context out of the scenario. The un nullifies him immediately.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
LMAO
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9335/am40tt0.jpg
It's called backfire LOL. This has nothing to do with the Spectre holding back when he had the power through his amp to destroy Am. Nice try though. The Spectre survived as well. LOL.

Originally posted by quanchi112
LOL. This has nothing to do with the Spectre holding back when he had the power through his amp to destroy Am. Nice try though. The Spectre survived as well. LOL.
LMAO
Spectre survived it so that means the attack was weak? WTF is the matter with you? Are you that ignorant. The fact that Spectre and AM both survived the attack shows that they were both powerful, NOT weak.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
LMAO
Spectre survived it so that means the attack was weak? WTF is the matter with you? Are you that ignorant. The fact that Spectre and AM both survived the attack shows that they were both powerful, NOT weak. I never stated this means the attack was weak. You always just pretend I state things or imply them which isn't the case.

You don't even understand the comics or my posts.


The Spectre wasn't trying to kill the Am. It was stated on panel which I was right once again.

Un erases Am.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never stated this means the attack was weak. You always just pretend I state things or imply them which isn't the case.

You don't even understand the comics or my posts.


The Spectre wasn't trying to kill the Am. It was stated on panel which I was right once again.

Un erases Am.
LMFAO, I think it's time for to re-read what I stated. You seem to be confused, or just playing dumb

Originally posted by xJLxKing
LMFAO, I think it's time for to re-read what I stated. You seem to be confused, or just playing dumb No, you stated I said it was weak when I implied no such thing. My point has always been the Spectre wasn't trying to kill the Am so using this as proof he can survive the un is ignorant to say the least. You need to reread things because this was painfully clear. They stated it word for word and the reasoning involved as well.

I said re-read my post. I never said which one.
Re-read the first one. It seems you have the argument completely wronng

Originally posted by xJLxKing


I said re-read my post. I never said which one.
Re-read the first one. It seems you have the argument completely wronng No need to. I proved my point. The un erases him and he survived nothing similar to the un's nullification powers.

Then, I guess you haven't read it. I posted the scan of him surviving a creation attack. The same one that contains infinite amount of parallel universes. The same amount that a UN can create.

Though, it seems you don't even try to reason. It's your way and no other way. I am pretty sure even if the author tells you himself, you wont change your mind

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Then, I guess you haven't read it. I posted the scan of him surviving a creation attack. The same one that contains infinite amount of parallel universes. The same amount that a UN can create.

Though, it seems you don't even try to reason. It's your way and no other way. I am pretty sure even if the author tells you himself, you wont change your mind The Spectre and the heroes survived. Who did this attack kill?

The un wasn't trying to erase everyone else just Abraxas and he didn't make the trip back.

You truly are a MORON

Originally posted by xJLxKing
You truly are a MORON
He manages to prove it again and again every day and push the envelope. You have to admire it in a way.

Admire? Of course. It's an inspiration for trolls, idiots, morons, and people who want to continue going southward

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He manages to prove it again and again every day and push the envelope. You have to admire it in a way. Do you see the Am surviving the un?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
You truly are a MORON So the attack killed no one yet you are touting it like it's a death curse. The point is you saying he survived a creation blast when it in fact killed no one present isn't proof he can survive the un. The Spectre also held back and wasn't trying to kill the Am.

You have to resort to insults, iphone because I bury you. Originally posted by xJLxKing
Admire? Of course. It's an inspiration for trolls, idiots, morons, and people who want to continue going southward You are some chil dwho doesn't know how to manage a complete sentence, misspells various words, and doesn't read marvel comics so you don't have any room to talk.

Actually, you are like a child. You try to act as if you are always right and smart. What you are is a fiend. You are ignorant and the mere fact that you try to question what happens in a panel even those it was basically stated to you in bold letters.

Seriously, nothing is good enough for you.
A statement? No.
A feat? No.
A statement and a feat? No.

Of course this all changes if it's for you. SO yeah, it shows your ignorance. It shows that you want to be correct despite all the evidence against you.

Just look at this scan!
http://img217.imageshack.us/i/am36qq2.jpg/

It practically states that they traveled to the dawn of time before the universes were created.

Then it this scans it shows the universe created.http://img356.imageshack.us/i/am40tt0.jpg/


Of course, you will try to undermine it, or weaken the statement as you always do. That is who you are after all.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, you are like a child. You try to act as if you are always right and smart. What you are is a fiend. You are ignorant and the mere fact that you try to question what happens in a panel even those it was basically stated to you in bold letters.

Seriously, nothing is good enough for you.
A statement? No.
A feat? No.
A statement and a feat? No.

Of course this all changes if it's for you. SO yeah, it shows your ignorance. It shows that you want to be correct despite all the evidence against you.

Just look at this scan!
http://img217.imageshack.us/i/am36qq2.jpg/

It practically states that they traveled to the dawn of time before the universes were created.

Then it this scans it shows the universe created.http://img356.imageshack.us/i/am40tt0.jpg/


Of course, you will try to undermine it, or weaken the statement as you always do. That is who you are after all. Dude, I could care less about your crying or your opinion of me.

I have stated my opinion while yours is falsely comparing the un's nullifying powers to a creation blast of the Spectre while at the same time ignoring the fact the Spectre not the sorcerers who were ampiing him stated we can't kill Am.

Un erases him. It's this simple unless you have a credible argument.

Quan, have you read COIE?

Anti-Monitor.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Quan, have you read COIE? Yes. I don't think you understood it.

First. The Spectre tried to Kill AM with his infinite energies. The only people able to hold back some power were the mages channelig their power into the Spectre, whose infinite energies weren't enough.
Fate stated they shouldn't kill him, not the Spectre. The Spectre under his own power couldn't kill the AM, which surely was his intention, with the help of the Mages he still wasn't powerful enough, not even to contain him completly.
When they saw the Viallains fail they gave him as much as they could which still wasn't enough to destroy the AM. The following "explosion" put the Spectre into a comatose state while it didn't kill the AM.
Fate even states later when fighting some shadow demons. "The Shadow-Demons are everywhere. That means the Anti-Monitor still lives." He believed the explosion at the dawn of creation had to be enough to kill the AM, and he saw he was wrong. So yeah, the AM should have been killed in the end, once the Villains failed but there was not enough power, even with the mages and spectre giving their best.

He was defeated once his powers were drained, PC Darkseid gave him his best shot and PC Superman finished him. Good showing for Supes fighting someone who had still the energies of his entiere Universe.

It's also quite funny how you try to prove an point "they didn't try to kill him" and acting like this prove alone is also the prove for the UN being greater then AM. The only thing that you might have proved would be that the mages didn't want to kill AM but this still wouldn't mean thet the UN > AM.

So AM >> UN, pretty obvious IMHO.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
First. The Spectre tried to Kill AM with his infinite energies. The only people able to hold back some power were the mages channelig their power into the Spectre, whose infinite energies weren't enough.
Fate stated they shouldn't kill him, not the Spectre. The Spectre under his own power couldn't kill the AM, which surely was his intention, with the help of the Mages he still wasn't powerful enough, not even to contain him completly.
When they saw the Viallains fail they gave him as much as they could which still wasn't enough to destroy the AM. The following "explosion" put the Spectre into a comatose state while it didn't kill the AM.
Fate even states later when fighting some shadow demons. "The Shadow-Demons are everywhere. That means the Anti-Monitor still lives." He believed the explosion at the dawn of creation had to be enough to kill the AM, and he saw he was wrong. So yeah, the AM should have been killed in the end, once the Villains failed but there was not enough power, even with the mages and spectre giving their best.

He was defeated once his powers were drained, PC Darkseid gave him his best shot and PC Superman finished him. Good showing for Supes fighting someone who had still the energies of his entiere Universe.

It's also quite funny how you try to prove an point "they didn't try to kill him" and acting like this prove alone is also the prove for the UN being greater then AM. The only thing that you might have proved would be that the mages didn't want to kill AM but this still wouldn't mean thet the UN > AM.

So AM >> UN, pretty obvious IMHO. Infinite really does mean a whole helluva lot though just saying. If he had infinite power what would be the point of an amp?

The Spectre wasn't powerful enough under his own power to defeat the Am who under my memory just had the powers of the heroes present anyways during the fight against the Spectre. That's not that impressive in terms of the Spectre needing an amp to contend with the powers of those heroes.

The sorcerers providing the Spectre with his amp stated they couldn't kill the Am meaning it wasn't attempted at these power levels to take Am's life.

Yes, they miscalculated but the creation blast hadn't destroyed the spectre or the Am. Someone being shocked at Am's continued existence still doesn't translate into surviving something that can wipe out the universe/multiverse with the press of a button whichever theory you prescribe to.

Am was eventually weakened and defeated by far less than a un. I am sure you don't believe the un can defeat the Am, but you don't have any solid proof or a good line of reasoning as to suggest why he would survive such a powerful weapon.

Un's feat is a lot more powerful/fatal than the creation blast with the heavy hitters we are are discussing here.


The creation blast didn't kill anyone on this level out of the two characters it directly affected.

When has the un failed to kill or destroy it's target?

Infinite means a lot with beings like AM and Spectre.
AM = infinite energy. Spectre = infinite energy.
Infinite vs infinite = eternal stalemate. With hero amp AM > Spectre, so Spectre needed an amp too.

Dr. FATE stated that they don't want to kill him, the someone schocked that AM is still alive was... ehm... Dr. FATE!

When the Villains failed, Spectre was given all the power they could give and the following explosion, with the birth of the Multiverse, was still not enough to kill the AM, though it was enough to put the amped Spectre into coma.

AM was deafeated by a power drain through an plot character that was extra created for the CotIE. Luthor.
Still that wasn't enough and they needed PC Superman (a beast an an nexus being, everything comes from Superman after all) and the best Shot of PC Darkseid. That is >>> UN IMHO.

The UN feats being more powerful is just your opinion mine differs. The birth of the Multiverse and an amped Spectre fighting you is more then "just" an UN.

The UN failed to kill Magnus with an incomplete IG which is still just <= 1 Universe.

Don't misunderstand me. The UN is powerful, Multiversal. But it's not enough for beings Like AM, Spectre or LT.

btw cubes & celestials are both infinite

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
btw cubes & celestials are both infinite

So is Juggernauts durability uhuh

UN doesn't just erase...it also restarts.
UN for the win

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Infinite means a lot with beings like AM and Spectre.
AM = infinite energy. Spectre = infinite energy.
Infinite vs infinite = eternal stalemate. With hero amp AM > Spectre, so Spectre needed an amp too.

Dr. FATE stated that they don't want to kill him, the someone schocked that AM is still alive was... ehm... Dr. FATE!

When the Villains failed, Spectre was given all the power they could give and the following explosion, with the birth of the Multiverse, was still not enough to kill the AM, though it was enough to put the amped Spectre into coma.

AM was deafeated by a power drain through an plot character that was extra created for the CotIE. Luthor.
Still that wasn't enough and they needed PC Superman (a beast an an nexus being, everything comes from Superman after all) and the best Shot of PC Darkseid. That is >>> UN IMHO.

The UN feats being more powerful is just your opinion mine differs. The birth of the Multiverse and an amped Spectre fighting you is more then "just" an UN.

The UN failed to kill Magnus with an incomplete IG which is still just <= 1 Universe.

Don't misunderstand me. The UN is powerful, Multiversal. But it's not enough for beings Like AM, Spectre or LT. I think the Am's only power available to him was the heroes power so to me it wasn't necessarily an amp at the time.

Yes, so in translation after the creation blast took place which killed neither he was shocked am was still alive. Prior to the creation blast the Spectre wasn't getting enough power to kill him because of the heroes.

Everything coming from Superman means nothing on a vs. board. He gets stomped by kingdom Gog and has been humiliated by various beings who the universe doesn't run through.

The Spectre was also actively resisting their efforts later on in the story and he wasn't dead so your point is?

The ig can manipulate the energies of the un with a thought which the Am cannot. he gets hit he dies. It's pretty simple.

Comparing the ig to the Am is laughable at best. Supergirl wrecked him earlier on his shell anyways prior to coming back with stronger armor.

The creation blast killed neither character while the un has failed to kill who when it hits something/someone?

The un would erase the Spectre imo and the Am just not the Lt. Lt's on a whole other power scale than someone who gets easily taken over by a black lantern's ring. Just sayin.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
When the Villains failed, Spectre was given all the power they could give and the following explosion, with the birth of the MultiverseUmm. No. Not even.

The simple fact that its debatable whether or not the UN can kill AM to me says Anti-Monitor is above Galactus, which some of you argue against to death.

Am survives

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Umm. No. Not even.

PM me why you think so and I will tell you why you are wrong .

Originally posted by redhotrash
The simple fact that its debatable whether or not the UN can kill AM to me says Anti-Monitor is above Galactus, which some of you argue against to death.

CoiE AM is > Galactus but SC AM is not IMHO.

It seems like DC has an Post Crisis AM too .

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do you see the Am surviving the un?

So the attack killed no one yet you are touting it like it's a death curse. The point is you saying he survived a creation blast when it in fact killed no one present isn't proof he can survive the un. The Spectre also held back and wasn't trying to kill the Am.

You have to resort to insults, iphone because I bury you. You are some chil dwho doesn't know how to manage a complete sentence, misspells various words, and doesn't read marvel comics so you don't have any room to talk.
WHat's the situation? Is the AM just sitting back and saying "sock it to me!" to whoever has the UN? If so then I can see the UN possibly working on him, at least weakening him like it did to MJJ. If its a fight though and the user is inexperienced AM wins hands down. The UN user would actually do better to try and nullify the AM universe to weaken the Monitor.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
WHat's the situation? Is the AM just sitting back and saying "sock it to me!" to whoever has the UN? If so then I can see the UN possibly working on him, at least weakening him like it did to MJJ. If its a fight though and the user is inexperienced AM wins hands down. The UN user would actually do better to try and nullify the AM universe to weaken the Monitor.

Some people think that the UN only has the ability to nullify. As I have said before Abraxas was not nullified hes concept(destruction) and being were erased, restarted and again Abraxas was trapped within Eternity and Galactus.
UN in the hands of Reed was multi-versal+, in the hands of galactus it could be mega-versal+

AM won't survive.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
WHat's the situation? Is the AM just sitting back and saying "sock it to me!" to whoever has the UN? If so then I can see the UN possibly working on him, at least weakening him like it did to MJJ. If its a fight though and the user is inexperienced AM wins hands down. The UN user would actually do better to try and nullify the AM universe to weaken the Monitor. How can the Am avoid it?

This isn't about inexperienced users it's about it's best feats vs. Am at his best.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
PM me why you think so and I will tell you why you are wrongSince this is a public debate thread, I don't mind airing it out in the open. Also, I find it convenient to just repost my opinion on this from another thread that was closed. The creation event involving Anti-Monitor and Spectre was not a birth of a Multiverse: Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I do think that I'm still disagreeing with your basic premise, that Anti-Monitor surviving the destruction/recreation conflagration speaks of his durability. I'm not sure I can agree with that because the heroes and sorcerers also survived.

Also, to further illustrate what I was thinking, I thought back to how that image compares to the original image that opens Crisis on Infinite Earths #1. As I think is fairly evident, that original black panel at the top of the second scan isn't really the multiverse being born or shuddering. We know what the multiverse being born looks like from the first scan's bottom panel. I think the plain presentation of the art reinforces my view. I know the second scan's narration makes it muddled, but I personally can't ignore the striking symmetry presented and assume that somewhere in-between the panels of the second scan, the multiverse was born and immediately destroyed, THEN the single universe is born. I think it's much more arguable that in the second scan, the multiverse was never born in the first place (since that was the Anti-Monitor's plan) and any narrative references to it could/should be explained as a reference to the Anti-Monitor's systematic destructive efforts during issues #1-10:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Crisis01.jpg ----> http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Crisis02-1.jpg Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Or... I could have just saved myself that long-winded post about artistic symmetry and narrative references and posted this panel, which I should have found earlier, but didn't until now:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis03.jpg

Anyway, yeah. In the third panel, Harbinger gives an account that confirms "the multiverse never existed." I think this added to the whole symmetry of the pages argument should lean the evidence over to my interpretation. If anything, that destruction/recreation conflagration was that of a single universe being born. Not a multiverse being destroyed/recreated.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since this is a public debate thread, I don't mind airing it out in the open. Also, I find it convenient to just repost my opinion on this from another thread that was closed. The creation event involving Anti-Monitor and Spectre was not a birth of a Multiverse:

I just wanted to save some things from others, humor me, i though it might come in handy.

Anyway.

Technically speaking.

1. The DCU is born. Single Universe? Not really but not unlike the CoiE situation.
2. The DC Multiverse is created when Krona tries to see what happend before the birth of the Universe. (It explains the inconsistencies of the DCU and the alternate earths)
3. The DCU is born when AM and Spectre fight while Krona triggers the catastrophe. (DC way of handling the inconsitencies once more)

But and here is where you are wrong. The Universe was born and it wasn't the only one. The Anti-Matter Universe still existed, it was also created, that's why it's still a Multiverse. I don't want to add the Reality of the New Gods to this or the Vertigo Univereses but it would be reasonable.

So even then it was a Multiverse, more then one Universe, at least two .

What we learned in the "recent" issues is that this Universe was still just an compact Multiverse and it was again seperated into 52 or more.

ODG, I think you are right and wrong. Yes, ONE universe was born during the blast after the events of COIE. However, it doesn't really matter. Why? The white light, or big bang always contained the same amount of energy whether Krona, AM, Monitors, Superman, or anyone else was there. Did they someone change the power of the big bang? Did they affect the blast? Did they weaken it? Not to my knowledge. They never one affected the big bang. That energy is always there. What happens with the energy is different. The blast (at first) was thought to create a multiverses, but not it only made one? How? Did they change the power? Redirect it? What?

Then there are still different universe(alternatives) like Vertigo, New Gods(if it's another universe I have no idea), and probably more.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
ODG, I think you are right and wrong. Yes, ONE universe was born during the blast after the events of COIE. However, it doesn't really matter. Why? The white light, or big bang always contained the same amount of energy whether Krona, AM, Monitors, Superman, or anyone else was there. Did they someone change the power of the big bang? Did they affect the blast? Did they weaken it? Not to my knowledge. They never one affected the big bang. That energy is always there. What happens with the energy is different. The blast (at first) was thought to create a multiverses, but not it only made one? How? Did they change the power? Redirect it? What?

Then there are still different universe(alternatives) like Vertigo, New Gods(if it's another universe I have no idea), and probably more.

Originally posted by quanchi112
How can the Am avoid it?

This isn't about inexperienced users it's about it's best feats vs. Am at his best.
He may not have to avoid it. He survived a blast that unmade creation which is pretty much what the Ultimate Nullifier is to an extent.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I just wanted to save some things from others, humor me, i though it might come in handy.

Anyway.

Technically speaking.

1. The DCU is born. Single Universe? Not really but not unlike the CoiE situation.
2. The DC Multiverse is created when Krona tries to see what happend before the birth of the Universe. (It explains the inconsistencies of the DCU and the alternate earths)
3. The DCU is born when AM and Spectre fight while Krona triggers the catastrophe. (DC way of handling the inconsitencies once more)

But and here is where you are wrong. The Universe was born and it wasn't the only one. The Anti-Matter Universe still existed, it was also created, that's why it's still a Multiverse. I don't want to add the Reality of the New Gods to this or the Vertigo Univereses but it would be reasonable.

So even then it was a Multiverse, more then one Universe, at least two .

What we learned in the "recent" issues is that this Universe was still just an compact Multiverse and it was again seperated into 52 or more.
The Anti-Matter universe still existed after COIE. So it was technically a multiverse (albeit the smallest possible multiverse). But you are right, it wasn't until IC that the Multiverse proper was remade.
Question: It's been a while since I've read COIE and I've forgotten but at the point that the Spectre rebooted everything had the AM already destroyed Earths 2 through 5?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He may not have to avoid it. He survived a blast that unmade creation which is pretty much what the Ultimate Nullifier is to an extent.

The Anti-Matter universe still existed after COIE. So it was technically a multiverse (albeit the smallest possible multiverse). But you are right, it wasn't until IC that the Multiverse proper was remade.
Question: It's been a while since I've read COIE and I've forgotten but at the point that the Spectre rebooted everything had the AM already destroyed Earths 2 through 5? The same blast didn't destroy anyone so what's your point?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He may not have to avoid it. He survived a blast that unmade creation which is pretty much what the Ultimate Nullifier is to an extent.

The Anti-Matter universe still existed after COIE. So it was technically a multiverse (albeit the smallest possible multiverse). But you are right, it wasn't until IC that the Multiverse proper was remade.
Question: It's been a while since I've read COIE and I've forgotten but at the point that the Spectre rebooted everything had the AM already destroyed Earths 2 through 5? You are confused. When marvel or dc is referred to as a multi verse it's different realities which splinter apart from the main one. The dc was made into one universe and just because it contained the anti matter universe this doesn't make it a multiverse anymore than the negative zone makes the marvel u a multiverse. You are confusing the terms and how it's applied in the comics. Most dc fans struggle to make sense of it.

^IIRC no. The Villains fought in the Timeline, they tried to stop Krona, if the Timeline still exists so does the Universe. Except of this, the Antimatter Universe which grows with each Universe it consumes (Making it a Universe as big as an Multiverse would be the only one left if those Universes would have been destroyed. Else The merged Universe wouldn't be an amalgam of the surviving Universes (Earth 2 Superman and Captain Marvel, JLA and JSA) because only those Universes which still existed before the reebot counted.

To the DC hater who struggles to make sense of all . The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma. Nasty experience I guess.

Oh and the terms and physics of both the Marvel U and the DC U work differently. Don't apply your Marvel biased Universal concept to the DC U, it won't work.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^IIRC no. The Villains fought in the Timeline, they tried to stop Krona, if the Timeline still exists so does the Universe. Except of this, the Antimatter Universe which grows with each Universe it consumes (Making it a Universe as big as an Multiverse would be the only one left if those Universes would have been destroyed. Else The merged Universe wouldn't be an amalgam of the surviving Universes (Earth 2 Superman and Captain Marvel, JLA and JSA) because only those Universes which still existed before the reebot counted.

To the DC hater who struggles to make sense of all . The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma. Nasty experience I guess.

Oh and the terms and physics of both the Marvel U and the DC U work differently. Don't apply your Marvel biased Universal concept to the DC U, it won't work. I don't hate dc I despise dc fanboys. The scan was already posted with it stating universe. You can argue all you want, but the whole point of coie was to flesh things out and make sense of it all.

You seem to have missed the entire point.


Also, both characters who experienced the creation blast lived. Comparing this to the un's nullification is laughable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't hate dc I despise dc fanboys. The scan was already posted with it stating universe. You can argue all you want, but the whole point of coie was to flesh things out and make sense of it all.

You seem to have missed the entire point.


Also, both characters who experienced the creation blast lived. Comparing this to the un's nullification is laughable.

Hm, you know that the big revelation that the Anti-Matter universe still exists and with it the AM was the big surprise of the very issue? The quote came from Harbringer and was before the big surprise, what did the staff of DC though while writing it? You don't have to understand it.

BTW i despise no one but i find Marvel fanboys really funny .

And you are right comparing the birth of the entire DC U to the UN's nullfification power in the MArvel U is laughable. When the UN can erase the entire Marvel U (or Omniverse as it calls itself) we can talk again, till then it's just a nice gun .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Hm, you know that the big revelation that the Anti-Matter universe still exists and with it the AM was the big surprise of the very issue? The quote came from Harbringer and was before the big surprise, what did the staff of DC though while writing it? You don't have to understand it.

BTW i despise no one but i find Marvel fanboys really funny .

And you are right comparing the birth of the entire DC U to the UN's nullfification power in the MArvel U is laughable. When the UN can erase the entire Marvel U (or Omniverse as it calls itself) we can talk again, till then it's just a nice gun . Yes, but the multiverse was erased. In marvel it's not a true multiverse if it's just 616 and the negative zone just like in dc it's not a true multiverse if it's just one universe and the anti matter universe.

The un remade the entire marvel u in a heartbeat while it also erased the one being who was causing chaos throughout the multiverse. The creation event created stuff it's purpose wasn't to nullify/destroy. The un can do both with one simple press of a button in the right hands.

You asked for something which already happened. Ignorance.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
When the UN can erase the entire Marvel U (or Omniverse as it calls itself) we can talk again, till then it's just a nice gun .

It can.
If someone on Galactus level or higher uses it.

the anti-matter universe exist in the same universe as the regular one.
its 1 universe
every universe has anti-matter within it.

a multiverse is two or more individual universes

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the anti-matter universe exist in the same universe as the regular one.
its 1 universe
every universe has anti-matter within it.

a multiverse is two or more individual universes

Originally posted by Juntai
the anti matter universe is not really a individual universe.

a universe is composed of half regular matter and half anti matter.
its not a seperate universe, you can basicly fly to the side of the universe containing the anti matter

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the anti matter universe is not really a individual universe.

a universe is composed of half regular matter and half anti matter.
its not a seperate universe, you can basicly fly to the side of the universe containing the anti matter

It is not a seperate universe because this is how I believe a real world universe works.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Technically speaking.

1. The DCU is born. Single Universe? Not really but not unlike the CoiE situation.
2. The DC Multiverse is created when Krona tries to see what happend before the birth of the Universe. (It explains the inconsistencies of the DCU and the alternate earths)
3. The DCU is born when AM and Spectre fight while Krona triggers the catastrophe. (DC way of handling the inconsitencies once more)

But and here is where you are wrong. The Universe was born and it wasn't the only one. The Anti-Matter Universe still existed, it was also created, that's why it's still a Multiverse. I don't want to add the Reality of the New Gods to this or the Vertigo Univereses but it would be reasonable.

So even then it was a Multiverse, more then one Universe, at least two.

What we learned in the "recent" issues is that this Universe was still just an compact Multiverse and it was again seperated into 52 or more. Whether or not the Anti-Matter Universe was recreated alongside the single DC Universe, that isn't quantitatively or even qualitatively the same as a Multiverse being recreated. By this reasoning, you could argue that Earth-1 and Earth-2 on their own make up a Multiverse. Semantically speaking, yes... taken together there are multi-universes. But we both know that this isn't a Multiverse. Even moreso, we should both know that a single DC Universe and Anti-Matter Universe does not equate to an infinite DC Multiverse or an infinite Marvel Multiverse. Originally posted by xJLxKing
ODG, I think you are right and wrong. Yes, ONE universe was born during the blast after the events of COIE. However, it doesn't really matter. Why? The white light, or big bang always contained the same amount of energy whether Krona, AM, Monitors, Superman, or anyone else was there. Did they someone change the power of the big bang? Did they affect the blast? Did they weaken it? Not to my knowledge. They never one affected the big bang. That energy is always there. What happens with the energy is different. The blast (at first) was thought to create a multiverses, but not it only made one? How? Did they change the power? Redirect it? What?

Then there are still different universe(alternatives) like Vertigo, New Gods(if it's another universe I have no idea), and probably more. No. To suggest that the power of the Big Bang in that scene in Crisis on Infinite Earths #10 contained the same quantitative power as the one that birthed the original DC Multiverse is preposterous. You're essentially arguing that the power was just equally redistributed within a single universe rather than across an infinite amount of alternate universes.

What you end up with, is this result: the power to destroy a planet in that single universe, is equal to the combined power required to destroy every single alternate version of that planet across the original multiverse. So Superman punching a planet in a single universe is equal to the combined power to destroy every single alternate version of that planet across the original multiverse. That's ridiculous. While your theory sounds like it makes sense on one level, it doesn't make sense when you try to extend it further logically. It's a single universe, nothing more, nothing less.Originally posted by Omega Vision
He may not have to avoid it. He survived a blast that unmade creation which is pretty much what the Ultimate Nullifier is to an extent.

Question: It's been a while since I've read COIE and I've forgotten but at the point that the Spectre rebooted everything had the AM already destroyed Earths 2 through 5? Same problem as above. On a semantic level, they're both creation events. But they're not the same. Furthermore, Anti-Monitor survived a creation event of a single universe, and no destruction event. UN's blast was a destruction/creation event of an entire multiverse.

Answer: AM didn't destroy Earths 2 and 5. They still existed, but AM decided to travel to the dawn of time.

So are you saying the two big bangs are different?What made the other one so much stronger then the other? Did the heroes intervene?

I am suggesting that the explosion/big bang, or whatever that gave birth to one single universe still had the same power that gave birth to the multiverse. It's not like the directly affected the big bang?

Originally posted by quanchi112
The same blast didn't destroy anyone so what's your point?

You are confused. When marvel or dc is referred to as a multi verse it's different realities which splinter apart from the main one. The dc was made into one universe and just because it contained the anti matter universe this doesn't make it a multiverse anymore than the negative zone makes the marvel u a multiverse. You are confusing the terms and how it's applied in the comics. Most dc fans struggle to make sense of it.
The antimatter universe is of commensurate size and nature to the regular matter universe so don't even try and compare it to the Negative Zone.

Immediately following COIE to my knowledge there was only New Earth, the 5th Dimension, the 4th World, Alex Luthor's Paradise Dimension, and the Anti-Matter Universe. Of those only two are true Universes and yet two universes is enough to be a multiverse by the strictest definition: universe=multiverse.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The antimatter universe is of commensurate size and nature to the regular matter universe so don't even try and compare it to the Negative Zone.

Immediately following COIE to my knowledge there was only New Earth, the 5th Dimension, the 4th World, Alex Luthor's Paradise Dimension, and the Anti-Matter Universe. Of those only two are true Universes and yet two universes is enough to be a multiverse by the strictest definition: universe=multiverse. You get the point. The size doesn't change my point.

There was one main universe and it was painfully obvious this was the entire point of coie. To bog it down to one clear universe by eliminating the multiverse.

A multiverse is divergent realities springing forth from the main reality.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Whether or not the Anti-Matter Universe was recreated alongside the single DC Universe, that isn't quantitatively or even qualitatively the same as a Multiverse being recreated. By this reasoning, you could argue that Earth-1 and Earth-2 on their own make up a Multiverse. Semantically speaking, yes... taken together there are multi-universes. But we both know that this isn't a Multiverse. Even moreso, we should both know that a single DC Universe and Anti-Matter Universe does not equate to an infinite DC Multiverse or an infinite Marvel Multiverse. No. To suggest that the power of the Big Bang in that scene in Crisis on Infinite Earths #10 contained the same quantitative power as the one that birthed the original DC Multiverse is preposterous. You're essentially arguing that the power was just equally redistributed within a single universe rather than across an infinite amount of alternate universes.


1. It is a Multiverse. Two Universes = Multiverse. There is nothing to agree or disagree. It's just a definition. But I knew you don't like to be wrong, that's why I wanted to PM you

2. The AntiMatter Universe has grown with eath Universe it destroyed, so it was as big as the previous Multiverse except the surviving.

3. An Infinite DC Universe and an Infinite DC Anti-Matter Universe (as powerful as the previous Multiverse) does indeed equate to a infinite Marvel Multiverse (or Omniverse), if all bias are dropped and both are treated equally. Both work with different Universal Concepts, you can't mix both just because they use similar terms.

4. xJLxKing is right. The birth of the Universe conatined the power to create an infinite DC Multiverse. Once Krona peered through the times he altered the outcome of the explosion so the Multiverse was created, this was more or less fixed with the CoiE. Maybe that's the reason why the DC heroes were so powerful before the Crisis. While Marvel distributes the power through multiple Universes and creates Cosmic beings to handle it, DC prefered the old fashioned way and treats their Heroes as cosmic beings, thus why Superman (Kal-L) could still fight AM who had the power of his Anti-Matter Universe. Both concepts are not really compareable on this scale, that's why so many discussions become fruitless. Just wonder why every hero from a different Marvel U then 616 is see as weaker?
Oh and we see that it still has the power of the Multiverse when Countdown happens, the birth of the new Multiverse is triggered by Luthor with the energies of the Main DC U.

5. The UN fired at the AM during CoiE would surely not end the Crisis. It would harm him but it would far from destroy him, that's something I'm sure of .

Originally posted by xJLxKing
So are you saying the two big bangs are different?What made the other one so much stronger then the other? Did the heroes intervene?

I am suggesting that the explosion/big bang, or whatever that gave birth to one single universe still had the same power that gave birth to the multiverse. It's not like the directly affected the big bang? Yea, they were different. It's a fact that one birthed a single universe (and antimatter universe) and the other birthed an infinite multiverse. I don't know why one created one or the other and I doubt that DC writers thought much about it either.

I understand that's what you think. But look where that leads: same Big Bang, same energy, that same energy must be distributed to (a) infinite multiverse or (b) single universe. In other words, the energy of that infinite multiverse = the energy of that single universe because the Big Bangs were the same. So what happens? The power required to destroy every alternate version of Mars across that infinite multiverse = the power required to destroy the single version of Mars in a single universe? Or vice-versa, the power required to destroy Mars in the single universe has enough power to destroy every alternate version of Mars across that infinite multiverse if you spread it around? That's an absurd result that logically tells you: well... the Big Bangs were different.Originally posted by Batman-Prime
1. It is a Multiverse. Two Universes = Multiverse. There is nothing to agree or disagree. It's just a definition. But I knew you don't like to be wrong, that's why I wanted to PM you

2. The AntiMatter Universe has grown with eath Universe it destroyed, so it was as big as the previous Multiverse except the surviving.

3. An Infinite DC Universe and an Infinite DC Anti-Matter Universe (as powerful as the previous Multiverse) does indeed equate to a infinite Marvel Multiverse (or Omniverse), if all bias are dropped and both are treated equally. Both work with different Universal Concepts, you can't mix both just because they use similar terms.1. Enough with the semantic nonsense. Galaxy is made up of stars. I don't call two stars a galaxy. Everybody knows when we refer to "multiverse," we're talking about that entire set of alternate universes that encompass a comic book company reality. When I talk about Earth-1 and Earth-2, I don't talk about the "Earth-1 and Earth-2 multiverse." Nobody would take such semantic terminology seriously.

2. You're completely missing one important point: this "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" didn't even exist when Anti-Monitor travelled to the dawn of time where the bruhaha with Spectre and the DC heroes happened. Because it was the dawn of time and nothing existed yet.

And if you're arguing that the resulting Anti-Matter Universe was a "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" because there was only one positive matter universe, then you're completely missing another important point: Anti-Monitor should have been extremely powerful (since he was merged with it) and been able to travel back to the dawn of time again (since absorbing the "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" was what enabled him to get there in the first place). He wasn't, and he didn't. Did Anti-Monitor ever state or show that he was even more powerful than ever post-Big Bang? No. In the face of this, you're arbitrarily assuming your conclusion. That the Big Bang was the same and energy must be conserved. It's clear the Big Bang wasn't the same because energy wasn't conserved. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
4. xJLxKing is right. The birth of the Universe conatined the power to create an infinite DC Multiverse. Once Krona peered through the times he altered the outcome of the explosion so the Multiverse was created, this was more or less fixed with the CoiE. Maybe that's the reason why the DC heroes were so powerful before the Crisis. While Marvel distributes the power through multiple Universes and creates Cosmic beings to handle it, DC prefered the old fashioned way and treats their Heroes as cosmic beings, thus why Superman (Kal-L) could still fight AM who had the power of his Anti-Matter Universe. Both concepts are not really compareable on this scale, that's why so many discussions become fruitless. Just wonder why every hero from a different Marvel U then 616 is see as weaker?

Oh and we see that it still has the power of the Multiverse when Countdown happens, the birth of the new Multiverse is triggered by Luthor with the energies of the Main DC U.

5. The UN fired at the AM during CoiE would surely not end the Crisis. It would harm him but it would far from destroy him, that's something I'm sure of. 4. Give me a break. Now you're completely contradicting what you said earlier by suggesting that the Anti-Matter Universe was where all that extra energy went. You can't even figure out how to align your own interpretations with each other. Now the power of the DC Multiverse was channeled into Kal-L, who at first was just a single Superman from Earth-2 pre-Big Bang? Did Kal-L ever state or show that he was even more powerful than ever post-Big Bang? No. Nothing's been shown to suggest that either the post-Big Bang DC universe or the Anti-Matter Universe or Kal-L contained the energies of the DC Multiverse that existed beforehand. In fact, the absurdities that follow completely argue against such a suggestion.

Don't be absurd. According to your theory, everybody would have been like, "Oh no! My power decreased exponentially all of a sudden now that Alexander Luthor brought the infinite DC Multiverse back!" And then when it settled on 52 Universes, they would have been like, "Aha! Now my power is increased again, but not quite up to the level where only one universe existed!"

5. If it hit him, it'd nullify him completely. An entire Multiverse couldn't withstand it's power. Anti-Monitor is not greater than an entire Multiverse.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yea, they were different. It's a fact that one birthed a single universe (and antimatter universe) and the other birthed an infinite multiverse. I don't know why one created one or the other and I doubt that DC writers thought much about it either.

1. Enough with the semantic nonsense. Galaxy is made up of stars. I don't call two stars a galaxy. Everybody knows when we refer to "multiverse," we're talking about that entire set of alternate universes that encompass a comic book company reality. When I talk about Earth-1 and Earth-2, I don't talk about the "Earth-1 and Earth-2 multiverse." Nobody would take such semantic terminology seriously.

2. You're completely missing one important point: this "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" didn't even exist when Anti-Monitor travelled to the dawn of time where the bruhaha with Spectre and the DC heroes happened. Because it was the dawn of time and nothing existed yet.

And if you're arguing that the resulting Anti-Matter Universe was a "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" because there was only one positive matter universe, then you're completely missing another important point: Anti-Monitor should have been extremely powerful (since he was merged with it) and been able to travel back to the dawn of time again (since absorbing the "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" was what enabled him to get there in the first place). He wasn't, and he didn't. Did Anti-Monitor ever state or show that he was even more powerful than ever post-Big Bang? No. In the face of this, you're arbitrarily assuming your conclusion. That the Big Bang was the same and energy must be conserved. It's clear the Big Bang wasn't the same because energy wasn't conserved.

4. Give me a break. Now you're completely contradicting what you said earlier by suggesting that the Anti-Matter Universe was where all that extra energy went. You can't even figure out how to align your own interpretations with each other. Now the power of the DC Multiverse was channeled into Kal-L, who at first was just a single Superman from Earth-2 pre-Big Bang? Did Kal-L ever state or show that he was even more powerful than ever post-Big Bang? No. Nothing's been shown to suggest that either the post-Big Bang DC universe or the Anti-Matter Universe or Kal-L contained the energies of the DC Multiverse that existed beforehand. In fact, the absurdities that follow completely argue against such a suggestion.

Don't be absurd. According to your theory, everybody would have been like, "Oh no! My power decreased exponentially all of a sudden now that Alexander Luthor brought the infinite DC Multiverse back!" And then when it settled on 52 Universes, they would have been like, "Aha! Now my power is increased again, but not quite up to the level where only one universe existed!"

5. If it hit him, it'd nullify him completely. An entire Multiverse couldn't withstand it's power. Anti-Monitor is not greater than an entire Multiverse.

Don't feel offended just because someone disagrees with you . It doesn't matter what you think about DC intentions nor what I think in the end, you might not agree, but you opinion surely isn't the only possibility nor the most likely.

1. It's nonsense for you because it proves you wrong. And no, the Marvel U works differently, it calls itself an Omniverse which is made of Megaverses, Multiverses and Universes, some Dimensions etc. The DC Multiverse as it existed and exists now is made of Universes and differen't kind of Dimensions, an Source wall, the bleed and whatever. They work differently, to simpify this we can't use the Terms equally on this scale. It might work with planets, it might work with Galaxies but it fails at Universal, Multiversal, Megaversal, Omniversal and Dimensional Terms. It's no rocket science to see this. So ok enough with this discussion, you won't change your opinion that's ok with me.

2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact.

Yes he traveled back to the energies which spawned everthing, which were still greater then the Anti-Matter Universe (as big as it was with all those Universes absorbed) because the dawn of creation birthed all the energies of all Universes the Antimatter Universe had absorbed + those it didn't, else there wouldn't even be a fight. If AM had destroyed all Universes he wouldn't have to go back in time .

4. You misunderstood me. I said that DC didn't have a need for cosmic beings back then because they made their heroes so powerful, some as powerful as New Gods. The Kal-L fight with the AM who absorbed the energies of his Antimatter Universe was just an example how poweful the PC-Superman was, not that he had the power of an Universe, just that he had enough power in him to give AM a fight. No contradictoon. Kal-L didn't need to absorb anything, DC made him powerful enough.
If you read IC however you would know that Kal-L is the key to the Multiverse though because everything comes from Superman shrug .

The CoiE was DC way to decrease the power of it's heroes, the energies of the Multiverse went to the Antimatter Universe, the remaining Universes were merged, that's why PC-Superman is considered more powerful then Post-Crisis Superman. You might disagree but anyway. The reasoning behind the decrease in power was surely another, it made the comics more interesting. Though that explains a lot . When Alexander brought the Multiverse back he took the energy from? He had the remains of AM, he had Kal-L as the key, he used the Spectre etc... but who am i to guess where the energy came from .

5. AM is great enough to be a threat to the DC Universe (not Multiverse/Megaverse/Omniverse bias just everything what DC has) he would surely resist a weapon which is a threat to the Marvel Multiverse (or Omniverse if it wasn't established back then and if the Multiverse it remade wasn't just a part of the Marvel Universe (<- everything Marvel has)) but everything in the Marvel U. He already resisted an energy greater then his own.

And that's the reason why I had prefered PM. You are to stubborn to accept if you are wrong in public, like Quan.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Don't feel offended just because someone disagrees with you . It doesn't matter what you think about DC intentions nor what I think in the end, you might not agree, but you opinion surely isn't the only possibility nor the most likely.

1. It's nonsense for you because it proves you wrong. And no, the Marvel U works differently, it calls itself an Omniverse which is made of Megaverses, Multiverses and Universes, some Dimensions etc. The DC Multiverse as it existed and exists now is made of Universes and differen't kind of Dimensions, an Source wall, the bleed and whatever. They work differently, to simpify this we can't use the Terms equally on this scale. It might work with planets, it might work with Galaxies but it fails at Universal, Multiversal, Megaversal, Omniversal and Dimensional Terms. It's no rocket science to see this. So ok enough with this discussion, you won't change your opinion that's ok with me.

2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact.

Yes he traveled back to the energies which spawned everthing, which were still greater then the Anti-Matter Universe (as big as it was with all those Universes absorbed) because the dawn of creation birthed all the energies of all Universes the Antimatter Universe had absorbed + those it didn't, else there wouldn't even be a fight. If AM had destroyed all Universes he wouldn't have to go back in time .

4. You misunderstood me. I said that DC didn't have a need for cosmic beings back then because they made their heroes so powerful, some as powerful as New Gods. The Kal-L fight with the AM who absorbed the energies of his Antimatter Universe was just an example how poweful the PC-Superman was, not that he had the power of an Universe, just that he had enough power in him to give AM a fight. No contradictoon. Kal-L didn't need to absorb anything, DC made him powerful enough.
If you read IC however you would know that Kal-L is the key to the Multiverse though because everything comes from Superman shrug .

The CoiE was DC way to decrease the power of it's heroes, the energies of the Multiverse went to the Antimatter Universe, the remaining Universes were merged, that's why PC-Superman is considered more powerful then Post-Crisis Superman. You might disagree but anyway. The reasoning behind the decrease in power was surely another, it made the comics more interesting. Though that explains a lot . When Alexander brought the Multiverse back he took the energy from? He had the remains of AM, he had Kal-L as the key, he used the Spectre etc... but who am i to guess where the energy came from .

5. AM is great enough to be a threat to the DC Universe (not Multiverse/Megaverse/Omniverse bias just everything what DC has) he would surely resist a weapon which is a threat to the Marvel Multiverse (or Omniverse if it wasn't established back then and if the Multiverse it remade wasn't just a part of the Marvel Universe (<- everything Marvel has)) but everything in the Marvel U. He already resisted an energy greater then his own.

And that's the reason why I had prefered PM. You are to stubborn to accept if you are wrong in public, like Quan. 5. Am was great enough through prep to be a threat because most weren't even aware of what was going on until there universes were being destroyed. The un can remake/destroy you with a press of a button. Am's physical shell was already wrecked just by Supergirl earlier in the story.

Am was a pretty big threat to dc, but nowhere near as powerful as the un or the ig. In dc it was epic, but imo the marvel threats/feats of power are more impressive in terms of what their big threats are capable of and what dc big threats are capable of.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Don't feel offended just because someone disagrees with you. It doesn't matter what you think about DC intentions nor what I think in the end, you might not agree, but you opinion surely isn't the only possibility nor the most likely.

1. It's nonsense for you because it proves you wrong. And no, the Marvel U works differently, it calls itself an Omniverse which is made of Megaverses, Multiverses and Universes, some Dimensions etc. The DC Multiverse as it existed and exists now is made of Universes and differen't kind of Dimensions, an Source wall, the bleed and whatever. They work differently, to simpify this we can't use the Terms equally on this scale. It might work with planets, it might work with Galaxies but it fails at Universal, Multiversal, Megaversal, Omniversal and Dimensional Terms. It's no rocket science to see this. So ok enough with this discussion, you won't change your opinion that's ok with me.

2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact.

Yes he traveled back to the energies which spawned everthing, which were still greater then the Anti-Matter Universe (as big as it was with all those Universes absorbed) because the dawn of creation birthed all the energies of all Universes the Antimatter Universe had absorbed + those it didn't, else there wouldn't even be a fight. If AM had destroyed all Universes he wouldn't have to go back in time.I'm certainly not offended by you being wrong. You can rest assured of that.

1. Arbitrarily declaring it works differently doesn't change the fact that based on your explanations, it's complete nonsense. I'm not going to look at Earth-1 and Earth-2 and say, "Well... that there's a multiverse!" No. I'm going to say, "Well... that there's two universes!" Uh duh.

2. No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd. facepalm

Nothing of what you said in the following paragraph makes sense. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
4. You misunderstood me. I said that DC didn't have a need for cosmic beings back then because they made their heroes so powerful, some as powerful as New Gods. The Kal-L fight with the AM who absorbed the energies of his Antimatter Universe was just an example how poweful the PC-Superman was, not that he had the power of an Universe, just that he had enough power in him to give AM a fight. No contradictoon. Kal-L didn't need to absorb anything, DC made him powerful enough.

If you read IC however you would know that Kal-L is the key to the Multiverse though because everything comes from Superman.4. Kal-L was powerful, but not because he was imbued with exponential power from the Big Bang. Why? Because he wasn't portrayed as any less or more powerful back when there were more universes around. Think.

That doesn't suggest that Kal-L contains the multiversal energies that weren't sent into either the single universe or the antimatter universe post-Big Bang.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
The CoiE was DC way to decrease the power of it's heroes, the energies of the Multiverse went to the Antimatter Universe, the remaining Universes were merged, that's why PC-Superman is considered more powerful then Post-Crisis Superman. You might disagree but anyway. The reasoning behind the decrease in power was surely another, it made the comics more interesting. Though that explains a lot. When Alexander brought the Multiverse back he took the energy from? He had the remains of AM, he had Kal-L as the key, he used the Spectre etc... but who am i to guess where the energy came from.

5. AM is great enough to be a threat to the DC Universe (not Multiverse/Megaverse/Omniverse bias just everything what DC has) he would surely resist a weapon which is a threat to the Marvel Multiverse (or Omniverse if it wasn't established back then and if the Multiverse it remade wasn't just a part of the Marvel Universe (<- everything Marvel has)) but everything in the Marvel U. He already resisted an energy greater then his own.

And that's the reason why I had prefered PM. You are to stubborn to accept if you are wrong in public, like Quan. You're ridiculous. Did you even just see what you wrote? If now none of those heroes are supposed to be more powerful, you just contradicted where you felt that Kal-L became more powerful. Good god. And guess what?! The antimatter universe didn't become more powerful! Why? Because Anti-Monitor was connected to it and he wasn't more powerful post-Big Bang! Not only did he never state or even suggest or prove he was more powerful, he got wrecked by all these "depowered" heroes! LORD.

5. He didn't resist anything more than what the sorcerers and heroes "resisted." They all survived, so what?

And this is the reason why I prefer open debate. To expose how backwards your reasoning is and you don't even see it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm certainly not offended by you being wrong. You can rest assured of that.

Ok cool down buddy.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

1. Arbitrarily declaring it works differently doesn't change the fact that based on your explanations, it's complete nonsense. I'm not going to look at Earth-1 and Earth-2 and say, "Well... that there's a multiverse!" No. I'm going to say, "Well... that there's two universes!" Uh duh.
.

It's still Multi, how YOU call it is not important.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

2. No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd. facepalm
.

See that's what i mean, you tend to become quite hostile once you are cornered. So it's best to rest the case for me as I don't whish hostility. His Universe provided the energy, true, he absorbed million worlds, true but his Universe remained. Brainiac couldn't sense his presence neither in the normal Universe nor the AM Universe. Wrong again, I guess.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Nothing of what you said in the following paragraph makes sense. 4. Kal-L was powerful, but not because he was imbued with exponential power from the Big Bang. Why? Because he wasn't portrayed as any less or more powerful back when there were more universes around. Think.
.

Just because you disagree shrug but nevermind.

I never said Kal-L was portrayed more powerful. I said he is just that powerful. I said however that Post-Cris Superman was less powerful. You keep misunderstanding me, i hope not on purpose.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

That doesn't suggest that Kal-L contains the multiversal energies that weren't sent into either the single universe or the antimatter universe post-Big Bang.
You're ridiculous. Did you even just see what you wrote? If now none of those heroes are supposed to be more powerful, you just contradicted where you felt that Kal-L became more powerful. Good god. And guess what?! The antimatter universe didn't become more powerful! Why? Because Anti-Monitor was connected to it and he wasn't more powerful post-Big Bang! Not only did he never state or even suggest or prove he was more powerful, he got wrecked by all these "depowered" heroes! LORD.
.

I didn't said it did i? It's ridiculous of you to accuse me of this. Kal-L ist just what he is, a beast powerful enough to hurt the AM.
The Antimatter Universe grows and becomes more powerful with each Universe it destroys, you might not like this but that's ok.
AM got wrecked once they exploited his weakness with a plot device character who was created for the sole purpose of CoiE. LORD

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

5. He didn't resist anything more than what the sorcerers and heroes "resisted." They all survived, so what?
.

They survived in a differen't way. They were remade into the new Universe, they earned their place in the new universe, while the Spectre for example got to live with the effect of the explosion. That's a big difference IMO.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And this is the reason why I prefer open debate. To expose how backwards your reasoning is and you don't even see it.

I like open debates with people I'm sure can stay polite and who can control their offensive natures. That's the sole reason I proposed you the PM .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Ok cool down buddy.

It's still Multi, how YOU call it is not important.

See that's what i mean, you tend to become quite hostile once you are cornered. So it's best to rest the case for me as I don't whish hostility. His Universe provided the energy, true, he absorbed million worlds, true but his Universe remained. Brainiac couldn't sense his presence neither in the normal Universe nor the AM Universe. Wrong again, I guess.Projecting some kind of temper tantrum onto my comments? Cute.

Oh yes. Earth-1 and Earth-2 can be called a "multiverse" to you. And I suppose that Earth-3 and Earth-4 is a separate "multiverse." So I guess when you look at Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3 and Earth-4, you rationally say to yourself, "Oh, hey now... here be two multiverses!" Yes. I'm sure that's what you do. Far be it for me to restrict free thought.

Projecting my cornering of you onto me is a waste of time. I'll take a look at it later to see ifd this is true. Ultimately it is irrelevant because my original point still stands: this "super grown antimatter universe" didn't exist at the dawn of time. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Just because you disagree but nevermind.

I never said Kal-L was portrayed more powerful. I said he is just that powerful. I said however that Post-Cris Superman was less powerful. You keep misunderstanding me, i hope not on purpose.No, really. You didn't make any sense in that paragraph. You tried to conflate the existing crisis with some sort of quantification of energy levels and it was compeltely incoherent.

Doesn't matter as the next few paragraphs reveal. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I didn't said it did i? It's ridiculous of you to accuse me of this. Kal-L ist just what he is, a beast powerful enough to hurt the AM.
The Antimatter Universe grows and becomes more powerful with each Universe it destroys, you might not like this but that's ok.
AM got wrecked once they exploited his weakness with a plot device character who was created for the sole purpose of CoiE. LORD

They survived in a differen't way. They were remade into the new Universe, they earned their place in the new universe, while the Spectre for example got to live with the effect of the explosion. That's a big difference IMO.So what? How does Kal-L being powerful have anything to do with how you think energy was redistributed in the Big Bang? Seriously? So what about the antimatter universe? This "supergrown antimatter unvierse" didn't exist at the dawn of time. NOWHERE is it stated that the new antimatter universe had the power of all the DC multiverse save for one universe. Show me where. Prove it.

Because you declare it to be so? Well, you're providing the answer to your own issues: If Spectre had to live with the effects of the explosion, then Antimonitor and the heroes and sorcerers didn't have to. Ok, so that's how they all survived. And there is no difference. Makes sense to me. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I like open debates with people I'm sure can stay polite and who can control their offensive natures. That's the sole reason I proposed you the PM. I like debates where posters like you (i) can remain coherent, (ii) bring forth things from the comics pages themselves, (iii) not rely on cute semantics and wordplay to suggest that two universes = multiverse just like infinite universes = multiverse, (iv) not project your own insecurities onto me, and (v) resort to ad ignorantium.

Your reasoning is atrocious. You ignore the simplest thing, that nowhere is it even suggested that after the Big Bang, this new antimatter universe is some superpowerful conglomerate. Is it? No. Such a notion is made obvious by the fact that Anti-Monitor himself, who is connected to it, didn't demonstrate any vast new power or even allude to such a circumstance. You're making this up to avoid the single simple fact that is stated and illustrated on-panel:

In one instance, an infinite multiverse is born. In the other instance, a single universe is born. They're not the same. Not even close.

Anti Monitor wins NO DOUBT AT ALL.

Originally posted by shokosugi
Anti Monitor wins NO DOUBT AT ALL. I doubt it

^You are cute indeed .

It doesn't matter how many Universes, one or infinite. Multiverse is the term DC uses for all the Universes it contains. So no, if there are 4 Universes you have one Multiverse not two Multiverses. If two Universes would be independent of the DC U it would be two Multiverses though. That isn't hard to understand.

Look at the CoiE issue after AM went to the dawn of Time, the page after the Guardians talk to Guy.
And it still is relevant as you said "No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd." See, wrong again. It won't make you less smart to accept that you can be wrong, on the contrary.

I never said the AM universe existed at the dawn of time . You keep misunderstanding me, sure it's not on purpose?

Second # of CoiE for example. AM "I steal his strength and mine grows stronger" Universe after Universe has fallen before my power, world after world is absorbed into one"

The Heroes woke up from a dream, they were integrated into the new Universe. AM and the Spectre suffered from the explosion and weren't simply remade shrug

You become unfriendly so this is my last post till you cool down.

And I never said that they are the same just that both were born through the same process. The energies were the same, the outcome was different, once because of Krona, the second time because of the AM and Spectre.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^You are cute indeed.

It doesn't matter how many Universes, one or infinite. Multiverse is the term DC uses for all the Universes it contains. So no, if there are 4 Universes you have one Multiverse not two Multiverses. If two Universes would be independent of the DC U it would be two Multiverses though. That isn't hard to understand.Go flirt with somebody else, not interested.

No it's not. Which reveals why your conflation of the universe and the antimatter universe as being a multiverse doesn't change the fact that it's still not a multiverse equal to the original DC Multiverse or the Marvel Multiverse. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Look at the CoiE issue after AM went to the dawn of Time, the page after the Guardians talk to Guy.

And it still is relevant as you said "No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd." See, wrong again. It won't make you less smart to accept that you can be wrong, on the contrary.How about I take a look at this, which conclusively shows that your so-called "supergrown antimatter universe," which you thought still existed in the future, actually didn't exist. As is clear, if anything was left, it was an ordinary antimatter universe as all the power, was absorbed by Anti-Monitor himself:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/InfiniteCrisis01.jpg

So sorry I said that the antimatter universe didn't exist because Anti-Monitor absorbed it. I should have been clear and said, the "supergrown antimatter universe you assert existed," didn't exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed all the energy from it. Which in either case, my misstatement on the particulars of the facts doesn't make my analysis or original statement incorrect:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
2. You're completely missing one important point: this "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" didn't even exist when Anti-Monitor travelled to the dawn of time where the bruhaha with Spectre and the DC heroes happened. Because it was the dawn of time and nothing existed yet.But it sure as heck makes your original response incorrect: Originally posted by Batman-Prime
2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact.Nope. No "supergrown antimatte universe" in the future. Not even. You can try following your own advice concerning when people are wrong.Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I never said the AM universe existed at the dawn of time. You keep misunderstanding me, sure it's not on purpose?

Second # of CoiE for example. AM "I steal his strength and mine grows stronger" Universe after Universe has fallen before my power, world after world is absorbed into one"

The Heroes woke up from a dream, they were integrated into the new Universe. AM and the Spectre suffered from the explosion and weren't simply remade

You become unfriendly so this is my last post till you cool down.

And I never said that they are the same just that both were born through the same process. The energies were the same, the outcome was different, once because of Krona, the second time because of the AM and Spectre. You keep acting like the Big Bang that occurred in Crisis on Infinite Earths was like a multiversal destruction/recreation conflagration. It wasn't. It was a single universe being born. No multiverse existed.

So what? Those events happened in the future and Anti-Monitor absorbed all those energies to travel back to the dawn of time. They went back to the dawn of time and the multiverse never existed. Hence, no multiverse to be absorbed into the antimatter universe.

Oh. So now the Anti-Monitor suffered from the explosion because you arbitrarily declare it to be so. Well, he didn't look like he suffered at all. Prove he suffered.

Take your hurt feelings and get over it. More projection. It isn't cute anymore.

The energies weren't the same. One created an entire multiverse, the other created a single universe. This wasn't some burgeoning new universe that had energy levels equal to the original multiverse. And these "make-believe" burgeoning energies didn't transfer to the antimatter universe either. You have no proof to suggest they did. And there's proof that completely counters such an erroneous assumption: Because neither the Anti-Monitor, nor the antimatter universe post-Big Bang was as super powerful as it was when it absorbed an infinite number of positive matter universes. You haven't posted a single shred of proof stating so or even alluding to it. There are other ways to expose the holes in your argument, but this is the easiest.

I love how that scan says their combined power could decimate a solar system. The combined power of all those beings could destroy a Galaxy or more.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I love how that scan says their combined power could decimate a solar system. The combined power of all those beings could destroy a Galaxy or more. once odin and zeus combined power was sad to destroy a planet or more.....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Go flirt with somebody else, not interested.

No it's not. Which reveals why your conflation of the universe and the antimatter universe as being a multiverse doesn't change the fact that it's still not a multiverse equal to the original DC Multiverse or the Marvel Multiverse. How about I take a look at this, which conclusively shows that your so-called "supergrown antimatter universe," which you thought still existed in the future, actually didn't exist. As is clear, if anything was left, it was an ordinary antimatter universe as all the power, was absorbed by Anti-Monitor himself:

So sorry I said that the antimatter universe didn't exist because Anti-Monitor absorbed it. I should have been clear and said, the "supergrown antimatter universe you assert existed," didn't exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed all the energy from it. Which in either case, my misstatement on the particulars of the facts doesn't make my analysis or original statement incorrect:
But it sure as heck makes your original response incorrect: Nope. No "supergrown antimatte universe" in the future. Not even. You can try following your own advice concerning when people are wrong. You keep acting like the Big Bang that occurred in Crisis on Infinite Earths was like a multiversal destruction/recreation conflagration. It wasn't. It was a single universe being born. No multiverse existed.

So what? Those events happened in the future and Anti-Monitor absorbed all those energies to travel back to the dawn of time. They went back to the dawn of time and the multiverse never existed. Hence, no multiverse to be absorbed into the antimatter universe.

Oh. So now the Anti-Monitor suffered from the explosion because you arbitrarily declare it to be so. Well, he didn't look like he suffered at all. Prove he suffered.

Take your hurt feelings and get over it. More projection. It isn't cute anymore.

The energies weren't the same. One created an entire multiverse, the other created a single universe. This wasn't some burgeoning new universe that had energy levels equal to the original multiverse. And these "make-believe" burgeoning energies didn't transfer to the antimatter universe either. You have no proof to suggest they did. And there's proof that completely counters such an erroneous assumption: Because neither the Anti-Monitor, nor the antimatter universe post-Big Bang was as super powerful as it was when it absorbed an infinite number of positive matter universes. You haven't posted a single shred of proof stating so or even alluding to it. There are other ways to expose the holes in your argument, but this is the easiest.



I never said that it's equal to the original DC Multiverse nor the Marvel Multiverse on the contrary. The new DC Multiverse was made of two (or more) Universes while the previous DC Multiverse was made of 1000 (or more) Universes, quite differen't, like black and white. It represents though exactly what the former DC Multiverse represented, the whole of the DC U.

I also never said that the "supergrown Antimatter Universe" as you now call it existed in the future. I said contrary to you, that the Antimatter Universe still exists in the future which is right, I did not care about the energies of the AM, the energies are not the space nor the size. You see that you are wrong so you try to change the point of the argument. The AM U exists, though the energies are with the AM. Simple. You were wrong.
I accept your apology though. I guess we agree now on something .

As for the birth of the DC U. The first time the big bang happend just the single DC U was born, Krona peering through the time to the dawn of creation and his try to see beyond it, was the reason for the birth of the Multiverse. His attempt altered the outcome. Like the AM and Spectre at the dawn of creation altered the outcome once again.

The Spectre suffered from the battle at the dawn, Phantom stranger states that.
The AM absorbed the energies of the "super AM U" and used them to go back to the dawn of creation. Even after the new big bang he says "I was to enlarge my AM U to replace all other Universes" so this event happened, he remembered it, like the heroes did.
I don't have to prove that he suffered at the dawn of creation, you did that already and you don't disagree with me here. He went to the dawn with the energies he absorbed in the future, he fought and lost, an all he was left with were the remaining energies of his AM U, still enough to be a threat but weaker. If that doesn't mean he suffered shrug

Do not worry about my feelings, just stay polite and everything is ok .

Originally posted by xJLxKing
You truly are a MORON

Reported for telling the truth.

UN wins this fight.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I never said that it's equal to the original DC Multiverse nor the Marvel Multiverse on the contrary. The new DC Multiverse was made of two (or more) Universes while the previous DC Multiverse was made of 1000 (or more) Universes, quite differen't, like black and white. It represents though exactly what the former DC Multiverse represented, the whole of the DC U.

I also never said that the "supergrown Antimatter Universe" as you now call it existed in the future. I said contrary to you, that the Antimatter Universe still exists in the future which is right, I did not care about the energies of the AM, the energies are not the space nor the size. You see that you are wrong so you try to change the point of the argument. The AM U exists, though the energies are with the AM. Simple. You were wrong.
I accept your apology though. I guess we agree now on something.Don't try to backtrack. You were and still are suggesting that the energies are equal.

Utterly false. You absolutely cared about the collected energies of the antimatter universe as is clear from this back and forth: Originally posted by Batman-Prime
2. The AntiMatter Universe has grown with eath Universe it destroyed, so it was as big as the previous Multiverse except the surviving. Originally posted by OneDumbG0
2. You're completely missing one important point: this "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" didn't even exist when Anti-Monitor travelled to the dawn of time where the bruhaha with Spectre and the DC heroes happened. Because it was the dawn of time and nothing existed yet. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact.And I'm the one trying to change the point? You're not confusing anybody by your feigned ignorance. What did you think? That these posts would magically disappear? Pretty wishful thinking. Extremely poor execution. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
As for the birth of the DC U. The first time the big bang happend just the single DC U was born, Krona peering through the time to the dawn of creation and his try to see beyond it, was the reason for the birth of the Multiverse. His attempt altered the outcome. Like the AM and Spectre at the dawn of creation altered the outcome once again.

The Spectre suffered from the battle at the dawn, Phantom stranger states that.
The AM absorbed the energies of the "super AM U" and used them to go back to the dawn of creation. Even after the new big bang he says "I was to enlarge my AM U to replace all other Universes" so this event happened, he remembered it, like the heroes did.
I don't have to prove that he suffered at the dawn of creation, you did that already and you don't disagree with me here. He went to the dawn with the energies he absorbed in the future, he fought and lost, an all he was left with were the remaining energies of his AM U, still enough to be a threat but weaker. If that doesn't mean he suffered

Do not worry about my feelings, just stay polite and everything is ok.So what? How does that even begin proving that all those energies were now contained in the new antimatter universe post-Big Bang? It simply doesn't. Keep up with the deflection tactics, but they're pathetically obvious. Recounting an obvious true fact here and there, intersliced with the absurd reasoning, doesn't suffuse your absurd reasoning with any element of truth. Those facts are completely inaposite and do nothing to suggest that the energies of the original multiverse were absorbed into the antimatter universe post-Big Bang.

(i) No kidding Spectre suffered. Has got nothing to do with proving that Anti-Monitor tanked anything. (ii) No kidding Anti-Monitor from issues #1-9 absorbed the positive matter universes. Has got nothing to do with proving that Anti-Monitor or the new antimatter universe post-Big Bang were suffused with the energies of the original DC Multiverse. Your deflection tactics are juvenile, transparent and now repetitive. (iii) Did you notice that you just completely tanked your entire argument in the underlined part by acknowledging that Anti-Monitor was weaker post-Big Bang?

Had the post-Big Bang antimatter universe been suffused with the energies of the original DC Multiverse, Anti-Monitor wouldn't have been weaker than he was before. As it stands, because he was weaker even after absorbing it again, that establishes that the energies of the original DC Multiverse weren't suffused into the post-Big Bang antimatter universe. Which proves your initial conclusion wrong. It also establishes that for whatever reason, the universe destroying/recreation blast that occurred at the climax of issue #10 did not contain the same energies as a multiversal destruction/recreation.

Which is exactly the point of this discussion from the very beginning. A universe was destroyed/recreated. Not a multiverse. Illustrated, narrated and stated. On-panel. And more than that, reinforced by the obvious ramifications which you ended up revealing yourself while chasing your own tail. Good show.

I do not backtrack. Your attempt at quoting me out of the context is pretty funny though.

"2. The AntiMatter Universe has grown with eath Universe it destroyed, so it was as big as the previous Multiverse except the surviving. "

Caring about energy, where? Stating something about post big bang, where?


"2. You're completely missing one important point: this "super-grown Anti-Matter Universe" didn't even exist when Anti-Monitor travelled to the dawn of time where the bruhaha with Spectre and the DC heroes happened. Because it was the dawn of time and nothing existed yet."

"2. It existed in the future like the remaining Universes which weren't consumed. fact."

Still nothing about the energies, just about the fact that the Universe exists in the future, when AM traveled back to the dawn of creation which you denied (which btw happend pre big bang, post big bang he didn't travel back to the dawn of creation). You were just wrong. "2. No. It didn't even exist in the future because Anti-Monitor absorbed it in order to travel back to the dawn of time. Gawd."
You executed yourself btw. He absorbed the energies not his Universe, that was still there.

You are again rather offensive and insulting. You try to put words in my mounth that suit your case because you were wrong.

The discussion started with you saing it was a single Universe while it still was a Multiverse, a small one but still pre big bang it was bigger, post big bang it was smaller if you wish so, energywise. You were wrong. It went on with you saing that the Antimatter Universe didn't exists in the future, at the time AM was at the dawn of creation, which I showed you is false. I would have never guessed that being wrong two times will get you so offensive and obsessed in attacking me on each possible straw you can find. You bring up the term "post big bang" so you have at least a point where you can accuse me of being wrong, because it's your only chance. Some facts become simply wrong if you take them to another point of the story. Pre big bang- till the dawn of time fight AM = energy of all the consumed Universes, post-big bang AM = Energies left in his U. Talk about pathetic shrug

The energies of the AM and the big bang were important, but I never stated he had the same post big bang, that's your misinterpretation. That's however what you would like. I didn't doubt however that those energies were somwhere, I even said "He had the remains of AM, he had Kal-L as the key, he used the Spectre etc... but who am i to guess where the energy came from", I can only guess, would I guess they are in those 3 beings or at least connceted to them so they can act as a focus? Yes. Would that mean the energies are in the AM U post big bang, no. You keep misinterpreting my post on purpose, at least I'm sure now.

You recount your "inerpretation" of what i "implied" over and over again, i guess recounting is a luxury for the few and not for all

So again, I never said that the energies went to the Antimatter U post big bang. I said they went there and that happened, my bad for not adding that it was pre big bang, i though it was obvious as all the Universes were consumed pre big bang (not pre big bang in the timeline, just pre big bang in the story, i have to be more careful for you )

The Spectre suffering was to show another point, a point you dropped because it couldn't help you attacking me shurg

Your blind rage that keeps you attacking me becomes repetitve btw.

Sure he was weaker, he took the energies to the dawn of creation with him, fought and lost, he suffered. No contradiction, just your way of misinterpretation.

They weren't suffused in the AM U post big bang, no contradiction with everything i said. But it doesn't establishes that the "universe destroying/recreation blast that occurred at the climax of issue #10 did not contain the same energies as a multiversal destruction/recreation" just because you say so. Where the remaining energies went is a guessing game. No facts. That it's still there is shown by Alexander who remade the Multiverse.

A Multiverse was destroyed (with a thousands or more Universes) and an Multiverse (Anti-Matter + Universe + maybe more) was recreated, no contradiction. You were simply wrong.

Interesting thoughts friends

Originally posted by guy222
Interesting thoughts friends

How are you Guy?

Always good my friend

Stay blessed

Batman-Prime: Frankly, I don't know how you post what you post when we can simply look at the history of the thread. This thread is only six pages long. You profess this in your last post: Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So again, I never said that the energies went to the Antimatter U post big bang. I said they went there and that happened, my bad for not adding that it was pre big bang, i though it was obvious as all the Universes were consumed pre big bang (not pre big bang in the timeline, just pre big bang in the story, i have to be more careful for you When you said this only a few pages ago: Originally posted by Batman-Prime
The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma. ???

How you flip-flop between your positions or profess to not say things that you said is beyond me. And ultimately, at this point it is completely irrelevant. You now agree that the post-Big Bang antimatter universe didn't contain the energies of the previous multiverse. That's fine. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Whether you intentionally or unintentionally misled me doesn't matter one bit. What we know is the resulting single DC Universe (along with its antimatter universe) didn't contain the combined energies of the previous DC Multiverse. Therefore the creation event wasn't the same as had destroyed and recreated the Marvel Multiverse in an instant. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
A Multiverse was destroyed (with a thousands or more Universes) and an Multiverse (Anti-Matter + Universe + maybe more) was recreated, no contradiction. You were simply wrong.Frankly, you're a$$-backwards on this. And no amount of wordplay or wishful thinking changes what was illustrated, narrated and stated on-panel. The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly. The creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths was not the same thing.

First, whether you say so or not, a Multiverse wasn't destroyed at the end of Crisis of Infinite Earths #10. How do we know? Because if we simply follow the plot, we know that this is the dawn of time before the multiverse existed. We also know it wasn't a multiverse that was destroyed in the blast because the narration of the very last panel states:

"And the universe explodes around him."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis03-1.jpg

What can I say? If someone suggested that the creation blast destroyed a multiverse, they're wrong (irrespective of what you're saying). And frankly, that's half of what the UN did instantly. Now the other half? The UN recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a blink. And the DC Multiverse was not recreated no matter how much you wished it was. How do we know? Because it's illustrated again and stated on-panel:

"For in that instant, a universe was born."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis01a.jpg

And if that's not clear enough for you, Harbinger explains it again,
"In that great battle with the Anti-Monitor, the universe was reborn.
Reborn from the dawn of time.
In this new universe-- the multiverse never existed."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis03.jpg

So for all your protestations that a Multiverse was born, no it wasn't. Not according to the writers. And whether you equate that a single universe+antimatter universe = multiverse... is irrelevant. Because irrespective of my personal thoughts, that's not how DC considered it either.

So all we have in Crisis on Infintie Earths is a universe destroying/recreating blast. So here you are, suggesting that Anti-Monitor is high above a Multiverse destroying/recreating blast... when all he survived was a universe destroying/recreating blast? Slight difference, slick. No matter how much you personally want to label it differently. And really... the heroes and sorcerers also survived that attack. So surviving that creation blast doesn't really speak to durability anyway. How you arrive at your opinion, in the face of what DC actually writes? By all means, PM it to me if you want, or post it here now that we have this whole "supergrown antimatter universe" argument laid to rest.

See that'w where you misinterprete again.

"So again, I never said that the energies went to the Antimatter U post big bang. I said they went there and that happened, my bad for not adding that it was pre big bang, i though it was obvious as all the Universes were consumed pre big bang (not pre big bang in the timeline, just pre big bang in the story, i have to be more careful for you"

The blast remade everyone, it integrated everyone into the new Universe, except AM and Spectre who took the blast, one was send back to his Antimatter Universe (which absorbed the previous Multiverse) the other was in coma.

You talk about energies while I talk about the size. Quite differen't I hope you understand it better now that you posted it yourself. Quantity not Quality.

The point is you were wrong on two instances and you have trouble accepting that. For the Multiverse part I can humor you and respect your opinion as I wasn't clear enough it seems. As for the AM U not existing in the future during the dawn of creation fight, this will stay wrong.

"single DC Universe (along with its antimatter universe)" = DC Multiverse, Multiverse by definition more then 1 Universe. Simple.

As for where the energies of the previous Universe went, I told you my opinion. Which comes from the later crisises.

". The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly. The creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths was not the same thing."

I asked if it destroyed/recreated everything in Marvel (or a part of Marvel) but no one cared to answer, so thanks you for clearing this.
I did not claim that the UN blast is the same. I just doubt that it is as powerful as the amped spectre + the creation blast (or the creation blast alone). Again, misinterpreting me won't help. IMO AM still survives. Humor me, but i though we talked about the most powerful CoiE AM who absorbed the energies of the AM U which contained the Multiverse (except the surviving Universes) during the absorbing process. So he had Multiversal energies which should be enough to survive the UN IMO.

You still don't understand it.

The dawn of creation stays the same, the energy it releases are altered two times, once by Krona, which leads to the previous Multiverse, then by AM and Spectre fight which leads to an similar Multiverse like the very first one (similar yet still different enough, mind you), the one before Krona changed the outcome of the big bang. Since this might not be clear enough.

1. Normal DC U big bang, everything is fine.
2. Krona, DC U Multiverse with an infinite number of Universes (or 1000) + Antimatter Universe
3. AM/Spectre fight. DC U with one merged Universe and the revelation that the AM U still exists is here (Multiverse, like it or not)
4. Alexander Luthor triggers the birth of the new Multiverse, where this energies came from shrug though he had AM's remains, Kal-L as a key and Spectre.

The issue with the newborn Universe had it's big surprise in the revelation that the AM survived. So why spoil everything in the beginning? You are left with the Universe and the Antimatter Universe, which are technically a multiverse. I didn't claim anymore.

I also explained you the difference between the heroes surviving and the major players surviving.

The supergrwon Antimatter Universe term came from you. It is as big as the previous Multiverse it just lacks the same energies, which the AM needed to reach the dawn of time. But that the energies are still there should be obvious with the countdown to 52 and IC.

I don't know how to properly translate that proverb "Wir reden aneinander vorbei" but it means something along the line "we talk without understanding each other properly". You misunderstood me, that's ok with me. Your offensive way of debating though is not.

^ Everything of what you posted is repetitive. You can say I was misinterpreted what you meant, but frankly, you weren't very clear at all. As it stands, the entire argument over a "supergrown antimatter universe" is null and void. I know you'd like to stay on that, because you professedly never gave up traction on your positions since we I was simply arguing with myself. But we're done with thaty. What we're left with and what you can't avoid, are your desperate attempts to characterize the creation blast as greater than or equal to what the UN did. Nope. The creation blast didn't destroy a multiverse, it didn't create a multiverse. You've said it yourself and it's justified on one level (I'm paraphrasing): It doesn't matter how I use the term "multiverse." It won't change what you think.

Well right back at you. I couldn't care less how you use "multiverse" because it doesn't change how I use it. The important difference between us? On-panel verification that DC agrees with me in the very same story we're arguing. No, the creation blast didn't create a multiverse, because they said so. Live with it.

And ultimately, you still haven't proven any difference between Anti-Monitor surviving the creation blast and the heroes/sorcerers surviving the blast. So irrespective of whether both DC and I disagree with your use of the term "multiverse," mere survival isn't a durability feat.

Read the comic. Rely less on equivocation and wordplay. The truth shall set you free. It's right there in the panels.

^I found the truth, you misinterpreted it.
I can live with that .
It's sometimes easier to change the discussion to different parts of the story, parts supporting ones opinion best but that's not my way.
I prefer the context where it belongs and if I'm not clear enough I don't mind to repeat myself more clearly, trying to explain it better each time, till I feel understood, you might call it wordplay, I call it correctness.
I also don't mind accepting if i wasn't clear enough. Something you still have to learn.

Have a good day.

^ I'm happy you realized the error of your ways and found the truth. Let's recap it for everyone else: (i) The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly; (ii) the creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths wasn't greater and wasn't even equal. How do we know? By simply reading the comic. Universe destroying blast:

"And the universe explodes around him."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis03-1.jpg

Universe recreating blast:

"For in that instant, a universe was born."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis01a.jpg

"In that great battle with the Anti-Monitor, the universe was reborn.
Reborn from the dawn of time.
In this new universe-- the multiverse never existed."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis03.jpg

Any wordplay or equivocation over "multiverse" is pointless over this on-panel evidence. DC and this story couldn't care less how people want to use terms. They were clear with how they used em in the story. This is what I said in the beginning, and after some unfortunate wayward detours, still what I rely on in the end. How apropos.

Later.

^repeating and reposting the same thing over and over again. Quoting things out of context etc. Post and copy, I know this pattern somehow though from another user. Your are quite similar in the end .

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm happy you realized the error of your ways and found the truth. Let's recap it for everyone else: (i) The UN destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single blast instantly; (ii) the creation blast in Crisis on Infinite Earths wasn't greater and wasn't even equal. How do we know? By simply reading the comic. Universe destroying blast:

"And the universe explodes around him."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis03-1.jpg

Universe recreating blast:

"For in that instant, a universe was born."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis01a.jpg

"In that great battle with the Anti-Monitor, the universe was reborn.
Reborn from the dawn of time.
In this new universe-- the multiverse never existed."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Crisis03.jpg

Any wordplay or equivocation over "multiverse" is pointless over this on-panel evidence. DC and this story couldn't care less how people want to use terms. They were clear with how they used em in the story. This is what I said in the beginning, and after some unfortunate wayward detours, still what I rely on in the end. How apropos.

Later.

A user of the UN who is smarter, has a pure soul and is more powerful than another person who has the exact same UN, would be able to do alot more damage. Assuming that this is Galactus he would be able to do a mega-versal destroying blast with the UN.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^repeating and reposting the same thing over and over again. Quoting things out of context etc. Post and copy, I know this pattern somehow though from another user. Your are quite similar in the end. Don't see how posting panels that state "universe destroyed" and "universe was reborn ... multiverse never existed" is out-of-context. That's pretty much exactly the issue we're discussing. No need to be so embarrassed by the clear evidence which you cannot admit to yourself! After all, with all your backhanded insinuations, it's clear that admitting things to oneself is highly important to you. Thought I'd help foster that effort. Repetition can be key after all!

But in all seriousness: to each his own.

^Context, revelations, what is know and what not, when it is known and when are other things revealed. Whatever. I feel generous and give you the last word. More power to you.

overall the ultimate nullifier is probably degrees of magnitude stronger than the anti monitor. however, in the contradictory way dc deals with its worlds its hard to say "i.e. the source wall even though it exists in one universe at a time is able to hold multiverse level beings off and similar things with the spectre etc.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Context, revelations, what is know and what not, when it is known and when are other things revealed. Whatever. I feel generous and give you the last word. More power to you. No kidding on that underlined part. And here I thought we were passing the last word back and forth like a hot potato! Ah well. C'est la vie.

I.M.O....the UN erases AM....and i dont think any version of the AM would resist it.

Originally posted by shokosugi
Anti Monitor wins NO DOUBT AT ALL. I see no reason to doubt the un erases him. None.Originally posted by Omega Vision
I love how that scan says their combined power could decimate a solar system. The combined power of all those beings could destroy a Galaxy or more. Writing is inconsistent and the scan pretty much makes it clear.Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Reported for telling the truth.

UN wins this fight. Reporting for attempting a funny. I really sincerely hope you will be funnier in 2010 than in years past.