Batdude and Kahn's Match #4: Team Pr/Philosophia vs. Team id/King Kandy

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Team Pr/Philosophia

Superman: Both
Martian Manhunter: Philosophia
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan): Pr


Genis (Photon)
Onslaught (Xavier/Magneto)

(I'd ask that id/King Kandy specify which characters will be used, and which one will be shared in their first posts of the match).

Location: Flooded Earth completely covered with water.

Prep Time:
- Each team will have access to a "team lounge" measuring 15x15 meters with a couple of couches, satellite tv, refrigerator, washroom, and an assortment of snacks and drinks for 5 minutes prior to each fight where they can use their prep time. . No extending of that prep time via any means (ie speed force or time manipulation).

Here's a link to the rules of the tourney:


Team Pr/Philosophia Part 1

Team Pr/Philosophia Part 2

Team id/King Kandy Part I.

Team id/King Kandy Part II.

Mod edit at poster's request.

King Kandy

King Kandy
Unofficial Post:

Because id's post where he stated this was edited, here's who's representing who:

Id: Onslaught
Kandy: Quasar
Both: Genis



King Kandy
Hmm... our counterparts are MIA, at least for the moment, and I felt I might as well try to leave another post out as a little welcome gift. I also wanted to dispell any worries the banned tactic actually will hurt our plan. So, without further ado:

Team Id/Kandy Post #3

Throughout what little debate has been finished so far, there's one member of our team who's been getting a little bit less appreciation than the other two... That member is Quasar. Now, without further ado, here's why even without our spacial prison, our team still rapes you, with an emphasis on Quasar's role in all this.

First off, they are relying mostly on their GL armor in order to stop us from exploiting the massive weaknesses every single one of their team members have. That's all well and good, but i'm about to show why it's useless. Quasar can easily absorb any construct made of visible light (he can absorb anything, but visible light takes no effort at all), and it will only make him even stronger.

Can absorb living laser, a being made of solid light much like GL's construct:

Capable of absorbing energy output beyond the GL's... here he absorbs almost all of Phoenix IIs energy in very short order:

Can convert energy blasts into concussive force and send it right back at the opponent:

Here he absorbs the energy of an entire star:

Can absorb all of Jack of Heart's energy extremely quickly:

Energy blasts pose no threat to him, not when he can just absorb them:

Absorbs power from four quantum band users, all wielding bands with power exactly equal to his... four herald-level characters cannot directly hurt him:

I don't have the scans on me right now, but later on he absorbs seven different living laser copies at the same time.

Mother of all absorbtion feats; here he absorbs Ego the Living Planet in his entirety (Silver Surfer tried earlier, and failed to do the same feat... Quasar's energy manipulation is>Surfers):

Those constructs? Not going to happen. We can easily take them over, absorb them, negate them, or bypass them. Then, we can get straight on to fire, red-sun, iron rip, taking over all of the rings (oh yeah, since their duplicates are also GL energy... those are ours as well).

Even if Quasar isn't around, everybody has a copy of Genis's powers, and Genis can do the same absorption:

Meanwhile, we are completely, truly undetectable to our opponents... they have absolutely no means whatsoever of finding us, as the only things they can see are illusions, while the real us are undetectable and incapable of being harmed. Meanwhile while they attack empty constructs like idiots, we can track them no matter where they go via multiple tracking methods and cosmic awareness.

They want to believe they can get a jump on us with superior speed, but it's not going to happen, for two reasons:

1. They can't find anyone to attack who's actually there.

2. They do not have the speed advantage they claim they do.

Here are some speed feats, just to show:

Photon flies at multiple times the speed of light (all of our members have a copy of his powers and knowledge of how to use them):

Photon flies around Earth and sun while carrying a casual conversation... he's not even trying:

Quasar, when not worried about damaging the atmosphere, comments that if he doesn't care about that he can easily match the lightspeed travel of living laser and proceeds to do so:

But, this is all really irrelevant, for the simple reason that... THEY CAN'T HURT US.

They can't even find us to even attempt to make an attack on us, between illusions, invisibility, and psychic cloaking that could fool X-Man. Should we choose to let them attack us, and reveal ourselves, they will have to get through shields that have resisted galaxy destroying force... all while we can silently siphon their energy like Quasar did to poor phoenix II, rendering them powerless.

Should we let down the shields, they are only going to hit armor so strong, silver surfer's blasts can't even make the wearer feel any pain.

They've made a lot out of their "anti-matter attack" (which they will never find a target for, but let's talk hypotheticals)... Genis can control anti-matter:

Even without any shielding, Photon can survive a hit by a being 2x Galactus (our team all have Photon's powers):

And Quasar can likewise conjure simple effortless constructs, that can resist Galactus's attacks:

Later on:

In Summary:

There is absolutely no way in hell they have the slightest chance of penetrating the layers upon layers of shielding, nor even locating us to attempt to do so.

Any energy attack or construct they attempt can be absorbed or taken over by us.

Their offense doesn't work.

All three of our characters can exploit every weakness of all three of their characters. No matter who fights who, they lose. Not that any fight will take place. Rather, we will quickly depower and kill them, while they have no way of retaliating.

They just cannot match us, in any way.





King Kandy

King Kandy









Team Post #

First of all, i want to thank Philosophia. I've been having a hell of a time this week (work and personal problems), so it was nice that Philo could carry the torch when i either wasn't here or wasn't able. I'm going to start carryiing my weight in later rounds (if we do prevail), but for this one, he has my thanks.

Now, to erase the memory of such an awful chick-flick moment:

A handbook that has been contradicted by the comics (which i have already pointed out in regards to the differences between the men). So what, Parallax Hal and GL Hal are the same guy now, even though their powerset is roughly the same? C'mon man.

which pretty much neuters his cosmic awareness, as seeing attacks coming would be considered precognition and is therefore useless. right?

i'm afraid i need to clarify something, then. my comments were not intended to state that the actual cosmic awareness itself was somehow weakened. it's Genis/Photon's use of it that is in question. He simply can't access it the way Insane Genis could, and even when he could access it to any decent degree, he needed time and concentration, something that this match simply won't allow him to have. And EVEN THEN, the actual usefulness of said "awareness" is questionable, seeing as Genis really has VERY FEW IF ANY feats of using it effectively post Insanity.

It's like having an tricked out gaming pc one minute, and then having a 1996 gateway with windows 3.0 the next. should do the same job, but not nearly as well.

Just so the judges see this:


"Coven's original powers are unknown"

"It is unknown whether or not his alien physiology granted him any other powers or enhanced skills"

i mean, c'mon.

and as regards him having the full power of an insane captain marvel... so? you can't prove that insane genis' feats are applicable, and you can't even begin to state that onslaught and quasar are somehow = coven after marvel gave him his powers. sure, it's arguable, but it's not definitive, which is what you need to prove. coven himself doesn't have many feats, so you're relying on hearsay and a handbook, which comics contradict all the time.

Honestly, what did Phyla Vell do that was so impressive? She can fly. She can shoot energy. She has decent strength and some CA. So does any basic kryptonian (bar the CA obviously). also, Phyla Vell wasn't given her powers by Genis, so the point is moot.

Rogue? You're using a HOUSE OF M (which isn't canon) scan to prove that Rogue was somehow decent with his powers? C'mon, guys.

Again, you're leaving out the big, giant elephant in the room: Coven has no feats of actual complex energy manipulation. In case you want to reference the above one, go ahead, but it still doesn't mean shit when Coven himself, and i quote:

"It is unknown whether or not his alien physiology granted him any other powers or enhanced skills"

and that's perfectly fine. the only problem is that onslaught's shields won't stop guys that have TWO (yes, TWO) separate ways of going intangible. Well, except Hal, as he only has the one. One is more than enough, though.

Ah. Yeah. The problem with THAT, is, it's inconsistent with Johns' own words. For anyone who missed it the first time:

GL energy is not "just light" remember? You can argue that some light is enough light, but the FACT is, GL willpower energy is part of it's OWN SPECTRUM.

and just for show, here's examples of light manipulators being ineffective against Green Lanterns.

Pre Johns:

Post Johns:

In that same issue, several pages later, the next time we see Doctor Light:

food for thought, no? especially seeing as John Stewart himself is still standing:

Problem is, yes, some writers have seen fit to show energy manipulators affecting Green Lanterns at times. Not anymore, though. Your one instance does nothing to contradict the mountain of evidence Johns has been giving us since Rebirth. This being the guy that basically rewrote GL mythology and powers, i'm inclined to take his word over that of Ron Marz, as much as i love the guy. Well, i really don't.

Besides, the majority breeds consistency. Your scan is inconsistent.

Team Post #10

Summary Post

I'm going to keep this short and sweet as best i can so that if id and kandy want to reply, they can:

You can run, but we're faster.

You can hide, but we'll SEE YOU.

Judges might be wondering why Philo and I haven't been concentrating on defending our own characters as much as we have going after theirs. Well, the truth is, we simply don't feel the need to. it's not arrogance. We're simply confident. We have a very simple set up:

Have GL Rings. Charge GL Rings. Hit them hard, hit them fast, and leave them begging for mercy.

We know THEIR weaknesses:

(Genis sucks in physical combat (ktfo by Ronan. Beaten to death (yes, physically BEATEN TO DEATH) by Atlas. Trouble with the Hulk, etc. He relies on his own inconsistent use of the cosmic awareness. He's been trapped in a Sue Storm force-field by Super Skrull too (and btw, that's Surfer breaking him out, the same guy who's supposedly meant to eat his heart out), so a GL blast would incapable of stopping him? Please.

Quasar sucks against anti-matter. And physical combat.

And both are slow as hell. Us, though? Racinig the Flash. Crossing the universe. TAGGING the Flash. TAGGING Superman.

Onslaught? He can't stop us phasing. He can't stop us cracking his shell, and we can take whatever energy release he hits us with. He's going down).

while eliminating our own (Iron, Mental Attacks, Red Sun/Kryptonite).

We don't have to reach, because our plan is painfully simple, and yet INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE. If you try to hide, we'll scan every spectrum. If you try to use shields, we'll phase through them. If you somehow magically try to drain our energy, we'll get physical. We have answers to EVERY strategy you might concoct. We're versatile and yet powerful at the same time. We adapt on the fly faster than you can.

That's why, when the smoke clears, we're still standing while they're not.

Also, i did have a chance to see Id's summary. I'm not going to address it. Honestly, i have to be in work soon so i don't have the time. And to be blunt? I honestly don't think he's said anything we haven't addressed already.



Match is over. Win or lose I feel greatly dissatisfied by the lack of consistent replies. More so after the 5 post blitz, 1 hour before the deadline.

psycho gundam
good luck to anyone judging this one, it's a doozy.

Originally posted by id369

Match is over. Win or lose I feel greatly dissatisfied by the lack of consistent replies. More so after the 5 post blitz, 1 hour before the deadline.

real life got in the way, which we've already explained.

and the tension is palpable here at the battledome...will it come to blows?

King Kandy
Originally posted by Martian_mind
and the tension is palpable here at the battledome...will it come to blows?
Nah, I just freaked out because I saw the posts and had no time to really think about the issue before I posted my complaint. I've cooled off now.

Though I had assumed that since we had already had a one-day extension issues like this would have been avoided.

Delph's Vote:

There was a lot more to consider than I'd anticipated in this match, so it took more time to read it over a few times and factor the key points to make sure I got this right. Here are some of the main factors that attributed to my decision:

-It's clear from the scans that Genis gave Coven the Power Cosmic. It's stated explicitly by Rick Jones and Genis Vell on panel. Granted, Coven had an alien physiology and undisclosed abilities, but on panel he himself attributes his increased durability and ability to survive numerous execution attempts to his alien physiology, not the abilities that Genis granted him with the PC. Saying that, nothing Coven did would make me believe he was as proficient as Genis, but it clearly gave him a large amp of PC abilities, and at one point he even took on the appearance of Genis when he stole more power.

-I wasn't convinced via the argument and evidence presented that Superman and Martian Manhunter would have enough proficiency with a power ring to implement the plan and create the results PR and Philo were gunning for without any proper guidance by Hal. Nothing was presented to support J'onn's proficiency save a couple scans of his overcoming adversities, and in the case of Superman it's a couple scans of him floating/flying with a ring when he was powerless, and then experiencing a simulated reality in which he went to Oa rather than Earth. None of this gave me confidence that he'd be able to create a construct of the Armor which Zod used to filter sunlight, or anything else complex, without the aid of Hal. If you'd just had Hal help them, which I'm VERY surprised you didn't, you could have avoided any doubts, but instead you guys were steadfast in your belief that semi-related scans would provide all the proof necessary.

-I am of the belief that PR and Philo have a speed advantage, however, given that this isn't an in comic battle and is a forum battle, Quasar wouldn't be hindered by flying slowly simply for fear of atmospheric damage. The speed edge still goes to PR and Philo.

-I wasn't convinced that Genis and Quasar would not be able to drain the GL construct. Reading that scan being volleyed back and forth in it's entirety, it states that the Lantern Powers are raw emotions converted into an "emotional" electromagnetic spectrum, i.e., all emotions from sentient beings are converted into an EM spectrum for lanterns to utilize:

Not that Green Lantern power is NOT EM, but that it has a unique source (emotions).

-I wasn't convinced that J'onn could remove the iron from his blood from the evidence that was presented (his regenerating an organ, creating an exoskeleton, and regenerating from a hand). If you'd shown him turning himself completely inorganic and still operating as normal (which I'm pretty sure there is likely a scan of, but wasn't presented in the match for our consideration) you could have shut this down out the gate. As it stands, I wasn't convinced.

-Though Onslaught has both Xavier and Magneto's powers (seemingly amplified to a great extent), using Magneto's feats is not a very good idea. Neither is using the feats and experiences of other Lanterns for Supes and J'onn. I can appreciate what you guys are trying to establish (same powers = same options), but I have to remain consistent, and in a previous match when the Thor = Beta Ray Bill argument was presented it was dismissed, and it's dismissed here as well. That said, Onlsaught manhandled Juggernaut like a kid does a G.I. Joe. His own feats aren't exactly remedial, and I don't think Superman would be able to so simply manhandle Onslaught in any manner.

-The energy lattice grid was a nice touch and wasn't ever really accounted for by PR & Philo. Id and Kandy would always be aware of where PR and Philo were, even with the speed advantage. On the flipside, while PR and Philo do have Supes' vaunted senses, I'm not sure he'd be able to see through the space fold cloaking of Photon for their team to pinpoint where to attack. I also don't think the illusions would fool the PR/Philo team for very long either.

-Manhunter would more than likely be able to phase through id/Kandy's defenses and assault them. I wasn't, however, convinced they would be found given the space fold cloaking.

In the end, it came down to my confidence that id/Kandy would be able to siphon the energies of PR/Philo's team while remaining undetected, then take out the weakened team.

My vote: id/Kandy

As for the point system allotments:

PR/Philo 1/5
id/Kandy 2/5

Share powers, shields up, amp, repeat. There's been a lot of vanilla plans thus far. id/kandy get a higher mark for the lattice grid and hearing devices to have complete awareness of the battlefield (nice touches), but beyond that it was more of the same. Need more creativity.

PR/Philo 2/5
id/Kandy 4/5

PR/Philo shot themselves in the foot by not solidifying their foundation and relying too much on general understandings than evidence. Yeah, Superman could be the greatest GL with training and experience, he's already greater than most GLs as a stand alone Kryptonian, but just handing him 10 rings with no guidance doesn't make Super Saiyan Sodam Yat 2 withut anything to base it on. Too much was left up to a seeming assumption that judges would be on the same page rather than concretely establishing the point. As for id/kandy, they kept it relatively simple: we have energy manipulators and shielding, we're gonna raise shields and drain your energy. The Magneto-esque cloaking was tossed out the window, but Photon made up for it. Always good to have contingency plans.

Debating Skills:
PR/Philo 5/10
id/Kandy 6/10

The debating was furious, particularly in the end with PR and Philo dropping a large closing argument, but nothing game changing was presented in my opinion. id/Kandy's plan was solid and effective.

Good match ya'll.

Now I'm on to Goober's Novel.

-Delph Digler

Batdude's Vote! (Yes, I'm presumptuous enough to put it in big font.)

First of all, I'd like to congratulate both teams on a good tourney performance. Both did an excellent job. It took me awhile to come to a decision here, but after reading through it a few times, and after careful consideration, I've decided to cast my vote for...


Imo, Pr and Philo did a better job at showcasing their team's effectiveness in this scenario. It was quite apparent that they were the one's on the offensive throughout the duration of this match, and had Id/KK on the ropes trying to defend their position.

I wasn't exactly buying the idea that Magneto's feats were somehow interchangeable with Onslaught's. Id/KK were putting quite a bit of faith into that particular point in this battle, which I felt hurt them. Also, I wasn't convinced Onslaught's shields would do anything in order to keep J'onn at bay.

J'onn has complete molecular control over his alien physiology. It's been stated many times, and shown many times. He has transformed himself into a wide variety of substances before, so to assume that the iron in the blood trick would still work when they had MM deliberately take it out is, quite frankly, ridiculous. This is just one example, but Id/KK didn't exactly use foolproof tactics when dealing with the other team's characters. Imo, they relied too heavily on easily counterable points.

Also, the GL rings require willpower and imagination... that's pretty much it. As long as one has the willpower, and can think of what he wants to do, he can do it. Philo did a good job of showcasing Superman's willpower, and proving that he is indeed good enough to create what they want him to create with it. J'onn, on the other hand, I wasn't actually convinced that he could really use a GL ring effectively, so I disregarded it. However, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it really mattered.

What it comes down to, for me at least, is effectiveness. I don't think that Id/KK could have achieved all that they wished to while simultaneously getting speedblitzed by J'onn and Superman. Pr/Philo did a good job of showing that Id and KK's team aren't on their team's level of speed and reaction times.

So, I broke it down like this...


Pr/Philo: 2/5
Id/KK: 2/5


Pr/Philo: 4/5
Id/KK: 2/5


Pr/Philo: 7/10
Id/KK: 5/10

Once again, good job to both teams. This was a really hard decision. thumb up

Starscream M
Starscream's Vote:

I felt that at the outset, Pr/Philo's (hereon referredd as PP) team was at a disadvantage. This was a matchup of brute force vs energy manipulators. They have two characters (superman, MM) with known exploitable weaknesses. I was curious to see how they would build against it.

Therein lies the crux of the match for me. It seems ultimately, PP's success or failure depended largely on the viability of Hal being able to create 29 GL rings and then give them to his partners. Now, since the brunt of their success depended on this happening, I was disappointed they didn't go more in depth to prove this to be even possible, let alone in a 5 minute period. The scan offered itself said that it could occur only in times of great need. I wasn't convinced Hal could just create 29 rings. Also, Hal saying superman 'would' make a great lantern doesn't mean that in 5 min, Superman could be a great lantern. The evidence is very tenuous and requires a leap of faith based on a statement that I don't hold too much weight in.

That for me sealed the fate of team PP. I think PP proved that MM could bypass the shields but that won't win them a victory. I was more persuaded by Id/Kandy (IK) idea of their team exploiting the easily exploitable weaknesses of PP.

I found Id's conclusion that this was a bad matchup for PP quite accurate. Had team PP been able to substantiate better Hal being able to create 29 rings in five minutes, it would've been a much harder decision. My vote is for: Id/Kandy.


Pr/Philo: 3/5 - I thought it was quite creative their plan of how each character would use the rings. Unfortunately, I don't think they proved the viability of the strategy.
Id/KK: 2.5/5 - very comprehensive plan...their prep was standard but covered all bases.


Pr/Philo: 2/5 - I didn't buy the main part of their plan (ring creation)...and unfortunately their entire plan depended on that aspect. Their plan did not seem tailored to their opponent and was more of a general brute force strategy.
Id/KK: 4/5 - I thought they did a good job of covering all bases and prepping specifically to exploit their opponents weaknesses.


Pr/Philo: 5/10 - good debating in general...but failed to convince me of an important part of their plan was viable. and due to issues IRL, the posts were sporadic and then came too late in the end with a post blitz.
Id/KK: 7/10 - effective. versatile. nuff said.

Overall winner: Id/Kandy

Total Score:
Id/Kandy: 13.5/20
Pr/Philo: 10/20

Good job to all participants!

Hmm... I didn't think these things would be so tough. I did agree that Pr/Philos team had the physical edge but id/King did a good job of minimizing that disadvantage. I also commend them on their use of the tournament rules to eliminate Genis' temporal awareness handicap.

I wasn't completely sold on Magneto feats being used for Onslaught. A lot of Magneto's greatness does come from his knowledge and experience. Nor was I sold on Martian Manhunter GLin' it up that well in 5 minutes, though on paper he does seem like a good candidate. Superman's evidence was a bit more compelling though. Still, I thought that id/King's plan worked better to counter Pr/Philos' attack and buy them enough time to do what they want to accomplish.

I really can't rank this because this is really the only tournament debate I've ever read here, but my vote goes to id/King. Good dishes, chefs.

Kris Blaze
Congratulations Kandy and ID, well fought battle from both teams. Though I'm left with a feeling that both held back a bit, perhaps saving their best stuff for later battles.

King Kandy
We certainly have more in store for later... I was hoping to be able to just trample over Pr/Philo, but it was way harder than I was expecting, but now we've seen everyone fight, so now I can more reliably gauge other teams and react accordingly.

Kris Blaze
This is for PR and Phil.


Originally posted by King Kandy
I was hoping to be able to just trample over Pr/Philo.

Ah, hubris.


Anyway, grats to both teams. I've been casually following the matches I'm not judging, though not reading them in depth. Seemed like a well-fought matchup. Deserving, potentially dangerous teams always fall early in non-round-robin formats.

Thanks for the votes everyone, and good luck to Id/Kandy in the following round(s).

King Kandy

This is like some Machida/Shogun bullshit.

Originally posted by id369
Hey Pr and Philo, I decided this would be the most appropriate song to play, when I bury your team. peachesgun3


Batdude/Khan, kindly match us up with K-M/Khris. peaches

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by id369
Batdude/Khan, kindly match us up with K-M/Khris. peaches

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Hurry up and win already, looking forward to crushing you guys 313

Has Kris been talking smack when I was gone? erm

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by batdude123
This is like some Machida/Shogun bullshit.

You don't say... I'm not surprised by this comment big grin

Good match guys.. I thought it was a good one

Originally posted by batdude123 This is like some Machida/Shogun bullshit.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi You don't say... I'm not surprised by this comment big grin Good match guys.. I thought it was a good one


Originally posted by id369

FsqJFIJ5lLs Originally posted by id369 sneer

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