World War Hulk Vs. Apocalypse

Master Court

Who has Apocalypse ever physically beaten on Hulk's level? Let alone WWHulk?

Juggernaut?
Thor?
Sentry?
Anyone?

Thor warded off Galactus and Sentry actually stalemated Galactus, and WWHulk knocked the f*ck out of Sentry and Savage Hulk has stalemated Thor. This is where ABC logic really shines. Has Apoc done anything like that?

Wrangling Hulk in and talking him down doesn't at all mean he "beat" Hulk. He had to get Hulk to comply. That should tell you something when someone who's suppose to be a big badass can't force one person to do his bidding. Instead, he just talked a lot of bullsh*t and Savage Hulk bought it because he's dumber than a bag of sh*t on crack, despite his more-often-than-not tactical combat prowess.

illadelph12

Who said it has to be a physical fight? Apocalypse has numerous ways of dealing with Hulk. He doesn't even have to let Hulk get near him via shields and teleportation. Hulk's outclassed.

h1a8

Plus Apoc has tk and can send WWh to space without even touching him.

Lord Feron

W/ Jobbing, CIS, PIS, off Apoc takes it.

Blanket

Originally posted by galactusischere
How is it that Apoc can beat WWH(stomp people are saying even) but no WW?

Master Court

Originally posted by illadelph12
Who said it has to be a physical fight? Apocalypse has numerous ways of dealing with Hulk. He doesn't even have to let Hulk get near him via shields and teleportation. Hulk's outclassed.

Oh, snap! cool

Good stuff.

But WWHulk, even? Without BFR, I mean. Kind of a tall order, isn't it? I mean, even just off the back of the Sentry-stalemate.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
Apocalypse grows 80+ feet tall and punts WWH into space, then teleports behind him and rail guns him into the sun ftw. Hulk's crushed giants before. This is WW Hulk. If it were this easy you must have a lower respect for marvel earth than I do.

wammamram

Originally posted by quanchi112
WW Hulk stomps him.
punk

Eternal Idol

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hulk's crushed giants before. This is WW Hulk. If it were this easy you must have a lower respect for marvel earth than I do.

Apocalypse at normal size is said to be in the Class 100 range. His strength and durability multiplies as he grows. Hulk is screwed.

http://www.leaderslair.com/noexcuses/hulk2-456.html

Omega Vision

Eternal Idol

Originally posted by Omega Vision
That explains why the X-Men have never been able to beat him. no expression

Sarcasm noted, but this hypothetical match is brought to you jobber-free, courtesy of galactusischere.

iceman24567

Same can be said about Superman's good showings against Seid erm

Omega Vision

Originally posted by iceman24567
Same can be said about Superman's good showings against Seid erm

Difference is that Darkseid had consistent good showings that put him beyond Superman before he started jobbing whereas Apocalypse never lived up to the hype and started jobbing not long after his earliest appearances.

iceman24567

Actually not so much

Eternal Idol

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Difference is that Darkseid had consistent good showings that put him beyond Superman before he started jobbing whereas Apocalypse never lived up to the hype and started jobbing not long after his earliest appearances.

Given his powerset, the writers pretty much had to. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much the X-Men, or even most of Marvel Earth, could do to stop him. Writers have done the same to characters like Juggernaut, Gladiator, Superman, Flash.... and the list goes on.

Superman isn't confined to Earth and has quite a few enemies who rival or exceed his own power, but still occassionally jobs to street-levelers and mid-tiers. Apocalypse, whose powerset gives him few peers on Earth, is made to job whenever possible because the good guys inevitably win.

illadelph12

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hulk's crushed giants before. This is WW Hulk. If it were this easy you must have a lower respect for marvel earth than I do.

Were those other giants equipped with telekinesis, teleportation, forcefield generation, shapeshifting (including techno-organic morphing to create conventional and energy weaponry), near equal strength, greater mobility, flight, high end energy projection, and the ability to morph around and evade all of Hulk's incoming blows?

If not, those examples don't apply.

It's not a lack of respect for Marvel Earth, it's just logical thought based on the factors in this particular forum battle.

Apocalypse has too many options and can negate WWH's only advantage (his strength). Apoc doesn't even have to allow Hulk near him, particularly in Hulk's punching range (which, even if allowed, isn't an endgame given Apoc's ability to morph around incoming attacks), and he has options to simply "air-juggle" Hulk into futility via port n' pwn (copyright).

Lostedge

Originally posted by illadelph12
Telekinesis, teleportation, forcefield generation, shapeshifting (including techno-organic morphing to create conventional and energy weaponry), near equal strength, greater mobility, flight, high end energy projection, and the ability to morph around and evade all

Too bad he never uses any of those, he is always in some cocoon. Hulk beats cocoon.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Apocalypse at normal size is said to be in the Class 100 range. His strength and durability multiplies as he grows. Hulk is screwed.

http://www.leaderslair.com/noexcuses/hulk2-456.html Hulk at normal savage levels gets a lot stronger once pissed off enough. This is a stronger based Hulk who used tactics and was stronger than savage even at his lower base.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Were those other giants equipped with telekinesis, teleportation, forcefield generation, shapeshifting (including techno-organic morphing to create conventional and energy weaponry), near equal strength, greater mobility, flight, high end energy projection, and the ability to morph around and evade all of Hulk's incoming blows?

If not, those examples don't apply.

It's not a lack of respect for Marvel Earth, it's just logical thought based on the factors in this particular forum battle.

Apocalypse has too many options and can negate WWH's only advantage (his strength). Apoc doesn't even have to allow Hulk near him, particularly in Hulk's punching range (which, even if allowed, isn't an endgame given Apoc's ability to morph around incoming attacks), and he has options to simply "air-juggle" Hulk into futility via port n' pwn (copyright). I think most of the threats WW Hulk faced were more powerful than Apoc.

Now if you want to go based on pure ability the Hulk's abilities don't look that great on paper, but in the comics this guy is an animal.

he took on the Juggernaut and bfr'd him like nothing after he went through two mutant teams with abilities ranging all over the map and nothing seemed to even remotely even irritate WW Hulk.

WW Hulk's strength and healing factor along with the factor of him being intelligent make this a no win situation for Apoc.

WW Hulk also can thunderclap him for a ranged attack.

What you are doing is arguing his powerset vs. the Hulk's powerset and are trying to downplay their roles in the comics themselves.

reading WW Hulk you know Apoc would have been teabagged had he showed off his ugly face in this story.

illadelph12

Good thing there isn't a plot in this thread.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
Good thing there isn't a plot in this thread. You still have to debate what's in character not become the character and completely dismiss their impact in the actual books themselves.

illadelph12

Read the OP Quan. The thread starter specifically removed this battle from the confines of plot driven interactions. PIS and CIS are both off, meaning this battle is not simply a re-enactment of the actions of the WWH storyline or any other story which are written specifically for the sake of a plotted outcome. I know you can grasp that concept.

Wei Phoenix

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hulk at normal savage levels gets a lot stronger once pissed off enough. This is a stronger based Hulk who used tactics and was stronger than savage even at his lower base.

I think most of the threats WW Hulk faced were more powerful than Apoc.

Now if you want to go based on pure ability the Hulk's abilities don't look that great on paper, but in the comics this guy is an animal.

he took on the Juggernaut and bfr'd him like nothing after he went through two mutant teams with abilities ranging all over the map and nothing seemed to even remotely even irritate WW Hulk.

WW Hulk's strength and healing factor along with the factor of him being intelligent make this a no win situation for Apoc.

WW Hulk also can thunderclap him for a ranged attack.

What you are doing is arguing his powerset vs. the Hulk's powerset and are trying to downplay their roles in the comics themselves.

reading WW Hulk you know Apoc would have been teabagged had he showed off his ugly face in this story.

His so called BFR of Cain was PIS.

The Nuul

Non jobbing Apoc wouldnt screw around like Strange did.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
Read the OP Quan. The thread starter specifically removed this battle from the confines of plot driven interactions. PIS and CIS are both off, meaning this battle is not simply a re-enactment of the actions of the WWH storyline or any other story which are written specifically for the sake of a plotted outcome. I know you can grasp that concept. Yes, I understand that but with that being said WW Hulk's strength is still off the charts. he has superior strength feats, an off the charts healing factor, and thunderclaps for ranged attacks.

Nothing Apoc is doing here is going to beat the Hulk here considering everything he survived in WW Hulk arc.

He won't be calming down either as by the op.

Apoc's size won't be an issue as the Hulk has crushed bigger threats prior to this. Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
His so called BFR of Cain was PIS. It doesn't matter one way or the other. He took on Juggernaut and he wasn't even remotely a threat to WW Hulk in this arc. WW Hulk only let him off easily imo due to the fact he was there for Xavier and Xavier only. Every mutant who got in his way or character prior to him getting his shot at Xavier was just a minor roadblock he went through.Originally posted by The Nuul
Non jobbing Apoc wouldnt screw around like Strange did. Apc doesn't have the options Strange has.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Omega Vision
That explains why the X-Men have never been able to beat him. no expression

When did they X-men fight and beat Apocalypse?

I must've missed this one.

psycho gundam

Originally posted by illadelph12
Good thing there isn't a plot in this thread. actually, plot prevented hulk from not only killing anyone that stepped to him, but shattering the earth.

illadelph12

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, I understand that but with that being said WW Hulk's strength is still off the charts. he has superior strength feats, an off the charts healing factor, and thunderclaps for ranged attacks.

Nothing Apoc is doing here is going to beat the Hulk here considering everything he survived in WW Hulk arc.

He won't be calming down either as by the op.

Apoc's size won't be an issue as the Hulk has crushed bigger threats prior to this. It doesn't matter one way or the other. He took on Juggernaut and he wasn't even remotely a threat to WW Hulk in this arc. WW Hulk only let him off easily imo due to the fact he was there for Xavier and Xavier only. Every mutant who got in his way or character prior to him getting his shot at Xavier was just a minor roadblock he went through. Apc doesn't have the options Strange has.

Apoc's still holding all the cards here. The only edge Hulk has is strength and that's not going to get the job done against Apocalypse, particularly not outside of the confines of a story arc written specifically in the Hulk's favor. Apocalypse can become intangible, erect forcefields, teleport out of harms way, or adjust his density to be able to absorb the blows Hulk throws (become rubbery so that Hulk's punches bounce off of him, or simply morph around them). Nur has too many options against a one trick pony like Hulk. He could always forcibly siphon the gamma out of him just like he did Cyclops's life force/energy. It's not even really close when it's a non-plotted scenario.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
Apoc's still holding all the cards here. The only edge Hulk has is strength and that's not going to get the job done against Apocalypse, particularly not outside of the confines of a story arc written specifically in the Hulk's favor. Apocalypse can become intangible, erect forcefields, teleport out of harms way, or adjust his density to be able to absorb the blows Hulk throws (become rubbery so that Hulk's punches bounce off of him, or simply morph around them). Nur has too many options against a one trick pony like Hulk. He could always forcibly siphon the gamma out of him just like he did Cyclops's life force/energy. It's not even really close when it's a non-plotted scenario. He can bide his time that's for sure, but at the end of the day Hulk's going to just get madder and madder making everything apoc does only further fuel this multi tricked pony. Hulk's got strength, thunderclapping, and healing that will continue to increase as this fight progresses.

Reed didn't seem to manage that well against WW Hulk.

The forcefields he erects will get smashed and like I said will only make him stronger and strengthen his resolve.

Acting like he can easily siphon the energy out of the Hulk and making a comparison to Cyclops is just wishful thinking at best.

In a nonplotted scenario he can WB himself at any moment or approach these levels. WW Hulk's on a whole other level.

illadelph12

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
When did they X-men fight and beat Apocalypse?

I must've missed this one.

There's a misconception on this board that the X-Men have beaten Apocalypse in direct combat numerous times. That's incorrect. They've delayed or foiled his plans, granted, but in direct engagement with Apocalypse himself (and not his henchmen) Nur actually has a good record against his opponents. Apocalypse hasn't lost many actual fights, he just gets his plans thwarted which leads to this board stigma of his being a loser. It's more along the lines of his plans being delayed so he falls back to the shadows to wait for the next part of his plan to come to fruition. Hardly ever has he been overwhelmed in combat.

psycho gundam

reed's elasticity < apocalypse's

they're not even the same since apocalypse can draw in more mass, and has dynamic strength like the hulk

quanchi112

Originally posted by psycho gundam
reed's elasticity < apocalypse's

they're not even the same since apocalypse can draw in more mass, and has dynamic strength like the hulk Ok, but my point is Reed was beneath the Hulk's notice and amping your mass is well and dandy but the Hulk can amp his strength.

His dynamic strength is nowhere close to the Hulk's best imo.

Blanket

Originally posted by illadelph12
There's a misconception on this board that the X-Men have beaten Apocalypse in direct combat numerous times. That's incorrect. They've delayed or foiled his plans, granted, but in direct engagement with Apocalypse himself (and not his henchmen) Nur actually has a good record against his opponents. Apocalypse hasn't lost many actual fights, he just gets his plans thwarted which leads to this board stigma of his being a loser. It's more along the lines of his plans being delayed so he falls back to the shadows to wait for the next part of his plan to come to fruition. Hardly ever has he been overwhelmed in combat. I still don't understand why villians just stop after a plan has been foiled. They may have just reamed the heroes' anus' out, but gee willikers if they can't use their ultimo device. Meh

psycho gundam

heroes die, no more comics

illadelph12

Originally posted by quanchi112
He can bide his time that's for sure, but at the end of the day Hulk's going to just get madder and madder making everything apoc does only further fuel this multi tricked pony. Hulk's got strength, thunderclapping, and healing that will continue to increase as this fight progresses.

Reed didn't seem to manage that well against WW Hulk.

The forcefields he erects will get smashed and like I said will only make him stronger and strengthen his resolve.

Acting like he can easily siphon the energy out of the Hulk and making a comparison to Cyclops is just wishful thinking at best.

In a nonplotted scenario he can WB himself at any moment or approach these levels. WW Hulk's on a whole other level.

Apoc can augment himself as well, and unlike Hulk, he doesn't have to get angrier to do it, he can just will it so. Apoc has Hulk trumped. Period.

Reed wasn't written to do it. Doens't matter in a non-plot driven scenario man.

He smashes, Apoc ports away and erects a new one, or teleports Hulk 2 miles above the ground and air juggles him. Your choice.

He can. Hulk runs on gamma radiation. Apoc can siphon energy. It's not like it's never been done before to Hulk.

Doesn't matter against an opponent that won't allow himself to be hit. If he breaks the world he has nothing to stand on and exert his strength. Apocalypse, on the other hand, can still fly and teleport. Hulk would be a super strong sitting duck. It's actually in Apoc's favor if Hulk destroys his footing.

Blanket

Originally posted by psycho gundam
heroes die, no more comics They could at the very least beat on them some more.

The whole "Ah ****, mah planz" is overused.

illadelph12

Originally posted by Blanket
I still don't understand why villians just stop after a plan has been foiled. They may have just reamed the heroes' anus' out, but gee willikers if they can't use their ultimo device. Meh

Just the way these stories work. The antagonist assaults the protagonist, the protagonist appears overwhelmed, the protagonist defies the odds and thwarts the antagonist, antagonist retreats to fight another day, and the cycle resets.

It's why I prefer stories like The Iliad.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
Apoc can augment himself as well, and unlike Hulk, he doesn't have to get angrier to do it, he can just will it so. Apoc has Hulk trumped. Period.

Reed wasn't written to do it. Doens't matter in a non-plot driven scenario man.

He smashes, Apoc ports away and erects a new one, or teleports Hulk 2 miles above the ground and air juggles him. Your choice.

He can. Hulk runs on gamma radiation. Apoc can siphon energy. It's not like it's never been done before to Hulk.

Doesn't matter against an opponent that won't allow himself to be hit. If he breaks the world he has nothing to stand on and exert his strength. Apocalypse, on the other hand, can still fly and teleport. Hulk would be a super strong sitting duck. It's actually in Apoc's favor if Hulk destroys his footing. We've never seen him augment himself to anywhere near WW Hulk or WB Levels in terms of strength anyways.

Yes, it does.

I get what you are saying, but my point is Hulk's strength has always been written as elite strength in marvel. Apoc can amp his abilities but don't act as if anyone believes he's a rival to the Hulk at his best.

Sooner or later Apoc is going to be closed in on.

Not by the likes of apoc.

Hulk wasn't trying to fight or hit anything. His energy was just tearing stuff up. If he uses his abilities and thunderclaps it's going to hit Apoc eventually. From there on out he do so until he buys himself enough time to get close enough to crush him.

The Nuul

But but but....Delph WWH could go World Breaker mode!!!

Nihilist

Apoc wins in these setttings without much trouble

illadelph12

Originally posted by quanchi112
We've never seen him augment himself to anywhere near WW Hulk or WB Levels in terms of strength anyways.

Yes, it does.

I get what you are saying, but my point is Hulk's strength has always been written as elite strength in marvel. Apoc can amp his abilities but don't act as if anyone believes he's a rival to the Hulk at his best.

Sooner or later Apoc is going to be closed in on.

Not by the likes of apoc.

Hulk wasn't trying to fight or hit anything. His energy was just tearing stuff up. If he uses his abilities and thunderclaps it's going to hit Apoc eventually. From there on out he do so until he buys himself enough time to get close enough to crush him.

He doesn't need to be that strong. Fisticuffs aren't Apoc's only options. Just because he's fighting Hulk doesn't mean he has to slather on oil and start Greco-Roman wrestling with him. Apoc has the tools to nullify Hulk's one advantage. He doesn't have to get physical if he doesn't want to.

No, it really doesn't.

Strength isn't the determining factor in this match. This is all out combat, not a strongman contest. Hulk being able to lift more is inconsequential.

Not very likely given his teleportation and ability to morph his body. Hulk doesn't have a counter. Nur holds all the mobility cards.

"Likes of Apoc"? Suddenly energy plays favoritism? How about the likes of Cellestial Technology embedded in one's body?

I read the comic bruh. Miek made his confession, Hulk got so pissed his step shook half the US, then he and Sentry had the most misrepresented and anti-climactic battle in the arc. I wasn't that impressed. And honestly, it has no bearing on this scenario. Particularly given that Apoc can always tk him so he's floating in the air and punt him offworld. All his strength doesn't increase his mass beyond Apocalypse's ability to throw it around like a football if need be. Just gotta look at this scenario objectively.

It's not really close.

The Nuul

Apoc doesnt even need to get close to win, he has other options to win with.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by illadelph12
There's a misconception on this board that the X-Men have beaten Apocalypse in direct combat numerous times. That's incorrect. They've delayed or foiled his plans, granted, but in direct engagement with Apocalypse himself (and not his henchmen) Nur actually has a good record against his opponents. Apocalypse hasn't lost many actual fights, he just gets his plans thwarted which leads to this board stigma of his being a loser. It's more along the lines of his plans being delayed so he falls back to the shadows to wait for the next part of his plan to come to fruition. Hardly ever has he been overwhelmed in combat.
I was being as sarcastic as only a white devil can be.

But yeah, all of this is correct. Because Apocalypse's plans do not always play themselves out to the fullest, people for some reason attribute this to him being a weak combatant. Like the "blood of apocalypse" arc. Though shitty, it shows that the X-men need to have Pulse further weakened an already incredibly weakened Apocalypse just to stand a chance no expression

Starscream M

Originally posted by illadelph12
Apoc has the tools to nullify Hulk's one advantage. such as?

WWH is depicted as quite a bit more powerful than Apoc ever has. I realize on KMC, versatility trumps sheer power...but in comics, sheer power trumps versatility.

illadelph12

Well, we're on KMC.

And the tools are, as stated before:

Shielding.
Teleporting.
Telekinesis.
Flight.
Ranged attacks.
Intangibility.
Malleability.
Energy Manipulation.

He doesn't have to allow Hulk to hit him.

Starscream M

Originally posted by illadelph12
Well, we're on KMC.

And the tools are, as stated before:

Shielding.
Teleporting.
Telekinesis.
Flight.
Ranged attacks.
Intangibility.
Malleability.
Energy Manipulation.

He doesn't have to allow Hulk to hit him.

shielding - WWH breaks through that

teleporting - good for a bfr, nothing else

telekinesis - WWH overpowers that eventually

flight - nothing WWH hasn't faced before in superior form

ranged attacks - WWH yawns...he's taken far more than Apoc can dish

intangibility - very rarely used. don't see how he would win with it

malleability - good. his face will deform greatly from WWH's fists.

Energy manipulation - perhaps effective. not sure about this.

---

Again, I see nothing Apoc has that WWH hasn't brushed off easily in his fight against basically the entire Marvel earth. PIS or not, it happened.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Starscream M
1. Hulk has broken Sue Storm's shield before. No reason why WWH can't break Apoc's shield. Shield creation takes alot of energy, against a guy like WWH pounding on your shield without give, Apoc will fatigue and lose his shield ability.
Apocalypse's shields are not Sue Storm's.

Prove that it costs Apocalypse energy.

Originally posted by Starscream M
2. Apoc doesn't use teleport like NC does. But even assuming he teleports to avoid Hulk, that's a draw at best.
He teleports away from attacks. You do not understand that it can be used in conjunction with other abilities? Do you not understand that because Apocalypse can teleport, he would not forsake his other abilities and -just- teleport? Clearly not.

Originally posted by Starscream M
3. He stalemated/beat Sentry...a far better flying threat than Apoc. That was after fighting half the planet, so a fresh WWH would've fared better, one would assume.
So because he fought a Sentry who willingly closed the distance between the two of them, he's got all flying threats covered? Your example does not apply to this scenario, faulty argument, please provide another example.

Originally posted by Starscream M
4. He's taken energy ranged attacks from members of xmen, xforce, avengers, etc combined....I'm sure that trumps Apoc.
Prove that the few ranged attacks that he took from the X-men and Fantastic Four, the only ones who attacked him with ranged attacks, are superior to Apocalypse's.
Originally posted by Starscream M
5. So Apoc has pulled someone to earth's core before? while intangible?
Has the Hulk ever kicked someone? Pretty basic application of Super-strength, never did it. I'm guessing he can't kick.
Originally posted by Starscream M
6. Apoc isn't rubber. he's malleable...but not anywhere near Reed.
Prove this.
Originally posted by Starscream M
7. Didn't strange try to manipulate WWH's energy and failed? I may have misremembered.
No, that's a lie.

Starscream M

1. Apoc isn't a magical being. He follows the laws of science, therefore his shields and all other abilities expend one form of energy or another.

2. I never said he couldn't teleport while doing other things. I can accept teleportation as a useful defensive mechanism for Apoc.

3. Sentry is a better flier than Apoc. So beating Sentry does cover him against Apoc's flying attacks.

4. Prove that Apoc's blasts are more powerful.

5. lol thats a ridiculous analogy...I'm not even gonna humor you.

6. I don't have to prove obvious facts. Apoc is not as malleable as Reed is a common fact.

7. How can it be a lie...I merely asked if I remembered correctly. A question cannot be a lie by its very nature.

supremthor

Apocalypse Stomps without jobbing, He can be as strong as he wants etc, Shit he can grow to galacticus size and transform his body to adamantium inside and out etc. So yeah WWHulk is fu<ked anyway i see it.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Starscream M
1. Apoc isn't a magical being. He follows the laws of science, therefore his shields and all other abilities expend one form of energy or another.

2. I never said he couldn't teleport while doing other things. I can accept teleportation as a useful defensive mechanism for Apoc.

3. Sentry is a better flier than Apoc. So beating Sentry does cover him against Apoc's flying attacks.

4. Prove that Apoc's blasts are more powerful.

5. lol thats a ridiculous analogy...I'm not even gonna humor you.

6. I don't have to prove obvious facts. Apoc is not as malleable as Reed is a common fact.

7. How can it be a lie...I merely asked if I remembered correctly. A question cannot be a lie by its very nature.
1. Lie. Apocalypse is integrated with Celestial technology, laws of science have nothing to do with this nor do you understand them. Apocalypse also manipulates -external- energies.

2. Concession accepted.

3. Sentry's flying attacks consisted of one failed bullrush and two attempted punching combos. Explain how this covers him against Apocalypse's use of flight.

4. I don't need to, you made the claim. Incidentally Apocalypse's blast knocked out The Living Monolith with a single blast.

5. You mean not being able to use an incredibly obvious part of your power is ridiculous? Yes, that is correct.

6. It's not "common knowledge" if that's what you were aiming for. You made a claim, prove it.

7. Concession accepted

Starscream M

lol you amuse me.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
He doesn't need to be that strong. Fisticuffs aren't Apoc's only options. Just because he's fighting Hulk doesn't mean he has to slather on oil and start Greco-Roman wrestling with him. Apoc has the tools to nullify Hulk's one advantage. He doesn't have to get physical if he doesn't want to.

No, it really doesn't.

Strength isn't the determining factor in this match. This is all out combat, not a strongman contest. Hulk being able to lift more is inconsequential.

Not very likely given his teleportation and ability to morph his body. Hulk doesn't have a counter. Nur holds all the mobility cards.

"Likes of Apoc"? Suddenly energy plays favoritism? How about the likes of Cellestial Technology embedded in one's body?

I read the comic bruh. Miek made his confession, Hulk got so pissed his step shook half the US, then he and Sentry had the most misrepresented and anti-climactic battle in the arc. I wasn't that impressed. And honestly, it has no bearing on this scenario. Particularly given that Apoc can always tk him so he's floating in the air and punt him offworld. All his strength doesn't increase his mass beyond Apocalypse's ability to throw it around like a football if need be. Just gotta look at this scenario objectively.

It's not really close. Like I said in my previous posts the options you have discussed won't defeat the WW Hulk so sooner or later he will close in on him.

It does and you are downplaying the Hulk's strength yet again and going all cbr on me.

If strength were all he brought to the table I'd see your point, but it isn't. He brings with him a healing factor almost second to none. The guy was depowered in his own story so they could break his neck in a tactical fashion yet when his power levels returned he healed from it immediately. A broken neck which was only achieved because he was depowered in the first place.

He will have to stand in one place to attack and Hulk can thunderclap. That's a proven ranged attack he can use.

Apoc creating horsemen and manipulating Celestial tech doesn't mean he can drain all the gamma energy out of the Hulk. A normal hulk he'd have a better chance but not this extremely pissed off Hulk on a mission here.

The whole story was focused around the fact the entire nation along with a lot of heroes were shitting their pants and that they couldn't just easily defeat him save Strange through his magic. He survived adamantium shells and what not ripping through his frame. he had a hole blown through him by Strange, etc. The Sentry cut loose and was the only one who could go toe to toe with WW Hulk imo. The Sentry needed up losing control and wanted to be put down though while Hulk kept his cool the entire time.

WW Hulk crushes him. He grows stronger and apoc has nothing in his arsenal to even remotely give him pause. if Thor's hammer won't bring him down after hours or combat and blows to the head Apoc is just going to piss him off.

Originally posted by Starscream M
lol you amuse me. This response might have just won the entire debate.

illadelph12

Not likely.

And this isn't the story.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
Not likely.

And this isn't the story. What's not likely?

illadelph12

That the "you amuse me" comment would change the factors of this match.

quanchi112

Originally posted by illadelph12
That the "you amuse me" comment would change the factors of this match. I know. I just thought it was a funny response.

The Nuul

Whats next WWH beating Loki..... laughing

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by The Nuul
Whats next WWH beating Loki..... laughing

People at the marvel.com forums think he can.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
People at the marvel.com forums think he can.

People at marvel.com forums generally subscribe to the notion that Wolverine, Hulk and Spider-man can overcome any challenge.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
People at marvel.com forums generally subscribe to the notion that Wolverine, Hulk and Spider-man can overcome any challenge.

thumb up

It's why I don't debate there anymore. The topic of WWH vs. Loki came up, and never before was I more disapointed in my fellow man.

quanchi112

Originally posted by The Nuul
Whats next WWH beating Loki..... laughing

Because he beats Apoc?

Starscream M

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
People at marvel.com forums generally subscribe to the notion that Wolverine, Hulk and Spider-man can overcome any challenge. and aren't they usually proven correct...by you know....comics?

quanchi112

Originally posted by Starscream M
and aren't they usually proven correct...by you know....comics? I think they are saying in a forum matchup the bad guys can win but no matter how severe the odds the hero will make it out alive and be at cold stone eating cake batter icecream at the end of the day.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Starscream M
and aren't they usually proven correct...by you know....comics?
Nope.

If you read some, you'd know.

Warlord

apocalypse pretty much the same fight as WWH vs Manhunter

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

So because he fought a Sentry who willingly closed the distance between the two of them, he's got all flying threats covered? Your example does not apply to this scenario, faulty argument, please provide another example.

How did Sentry willingly close the gap? I dont think he said hes got all flying threats covered, did he?

Originally posted by The Nuul
I think Megatron said it best!

"Your knowledge is only overshadowed by your stupidity Starscream.”

I dont know looks like you guys are being kinda douchebags really.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Deadline
How did Sentry willingly close the gap? I dont think he said hes got all flying threats covered, did he?
no expression

He flew towards Hulk, closing the gap between them.

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
no expression

He flew towards Hulk, closing the gap between them.

I thought you meant in a metaphorical sense ie letting him punch him. So thats an example of how hulk could defend himself from a flying attack.

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Apocalypse's shields are not Sue Storm's.

No it isn't but shes pretty powerful. Im sure Hulk has smashed stuuf stronger than that as well.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

He teleports away from attacks. You do not understand that it can be used in conjunction with other abilities? Do you not understand that because Apocalypse can teleport, he would not forsake his other abilities and -just- teleport? Clearly not.

Ok im hoping you got lots of examples of Apoc using teleportation in a fight.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

So because he fought a Sentry who willingly closed the distance between the two of them, he's got all flying threats covered? Your example does not apply to this scenario, faulty argument, please provide another example.

As I said before its an example of how he could defend himself from a flying attack. Id also like to see examples of Apoc using flight in combat, if thats what you're refering to.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

Prove that the few ranged attacks that he took from the X-men and Fantastic Four, the only ones who attacked him with ranged attacks, are superior to Apocalypse's.

Not sure if he has to prove anything. Im sure there are loads of examples of weaker hulks taking serious energy damage. Could be wrong but I doubt it.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

Prove this.

You know something. Eventhough its an assumption its not unreasonbale one. I think this is based on the fact that in terms of stretching Reed has more impressive feats. Its much like his assumption about Sentry being a better flier.;

Kris Blaze

I'm not going to bother with some scum biscuits who hasn't read X-Factor, possibly the greatest X-Men stuff there is out there. It's all there in Walter+Louise's run. Notice that Apocalypse does not actually fly straight into his opponent's fists, like The Sentry does.

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I'm not going to bother with some scum biscuits who hasn't read X-Factor, possibly the greatest X-Men stuff there is out there. It's all there in Walter+Louise's run. Notice that Apocalypse does not actually fly straight into his opponent's fists, like The Sentry does.

I think your trolling. I have read X-factor but im not sure what volume your talking about. I might have read it but I dont remember the author.

Just because you saw Apoc flying in X-factor doesn't neccsarily mean hes going to use it in a forum match. Do you read Uncanny X men were he was attacked by The Avengers and X men? I dont remember seeing one single solitary example of him flying or teleporting in a fight.

In fact you go to his respect thread and see loads of fights without any flying or teleportation.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Deadline
I think your trolling. I have read X-factor but im not sure what volume your talking about. I might have read it but I dont remember the author.

Just because you saw Apoc flying in X-factor doesn't neccsarily mean hes going to use it in a forum match. Do you read Uncanny X men were he was attacked by The Avengers and X men? I dont remember seeing one single solitary example of him flying or teleporting in a fight.

In fact you go to his respect thread and see loads of fights without any flying or teleportation.
Wow, killer argument. There are fights without him flying.

How do you explain his battle against high evolutionary, Ikaris and X-men? He's flying in all of them no expression

You clearly have not looked at many fights in his respect thread, or read the -good- X-Factor comics. How else can you justify trying to use a fight where he has been drained of his blood and further weakened by Pulse as an example of his average? I mean, obviously an incredibly weakened Apocalypse is not what we'll see in this thread.

Mshinu

I still don`t get how the overglorified green meatball is even going to get within striking distance unless Apoc acts like an idiot. Thunderclaps? Poccy got shields.

Starscream M

Originally posted by Mshinu
the overglorified green meatball *chuckles*

The Nuul

Like it has been stated before Apoc watches the most dangerous heros/villains and is prepared for them.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mshinu
I still don`t get how the overglorified green meatball is even going to get within striking distance unless Apoc acts like an idiot. Thunderclaps? Poccy got shields. All the apoc side has done is delayed the inevitable.

Mshinu

Originally posted by quanchi112
Which only makes him stronger and more determined.

He can be as determined he likes when Apoc shoves the decapitated head up Hulks own arse. Try regenerating a body there stick out tongue

Seriously Hulk gets carved up like a roast.

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Wow, killer argument. There are fights without him flying.

How do you explain his battle against high evolutionary, Ikaris and X-men? He's flying in all of them no expression

The hell do you think? Its like arguing that Superman is going use T-VO in a fight when for the most part he doesn't

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

You clearly have not looked at many fights in his respect thread, or read the -good- X-Factor comics.

You might be right but im pretty sure I could go there now and finds lots of fights without teleportation and flight

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

How else can you justify trying to use a fight where he has been drained of his blood and further weakened by Pulse as an example of his average? I mean, obviously an incredibly weakened Apocalypse is not what we'll see in this thread.

Wow killer argument. I think you had better read the arc gain. Thats just one part of it. He fights the sentinels not one single example of flight or teleportation. He then fights the X- men not one single example of teleporation or flight.
He then fights the X-men again and he doesnt use flight or teleportation once its only aftewards he gets weakened by Pulse.

I could be wrong maybe there are lots of examples of him teleporting or flying in combat but ive read comics with Apoc in and been to his respect thread. It seems to me for the most part he doesn't use flight or teleporating in combat so maybe you should provide some proof instead of just insulting posters.

galactusischere

Originally posted by Deadline

I could be wrong maybe there are lots of examples of him teleporting or flying in combat but ive read comics with Apoc in and been to his respect thread. It seems to me for the most part he doesn't use flight or teleporating in combat so maybe you should provide some proof instead of just insulting posters.

you are wrong.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/apocalypse%20high%20evolutionary/scanscans/powers24.png

Deadline

Originally posted by galactusischere
you are wrong.
url]http://media.photobucket.com/image/apocalypse%20high%20evolutionary/scanscans/powers24.png

You clearly didn't listen to what I said did you? Ok lets try again.

The hell do you think? Its like arguing that Superman is going use T-VO in a fight when for the most part he doesn't

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mshinu
He can be as determined he likes when Apoc shoves the decapitated head up Hulks own arse. Try regenerating a body there stick out tongue

Seriously Hulk gets carved up like a roast. He had pieces of him blown off and still crushed Strange/Zom. it wasn't even an issue at all. Apoc gets owned when Hulk gets a hold of him.

The Nuul

If Supes has used it a few times its a valid tactic in a forum fight.

quanchi112

Originally posted by The Nuul
If Supes has used it a few times its a valid tactic in a forum fight. It shoudn't be used to determine the majority though. That's deadline's point. I don't hear anyone throwing godblasting around as someone's justification for Thor winning any old majority.

Deadline

Originally posted by The Nuul
If Supes has used it a few times its a valid tactic in a forum fight.

Theres CIS. If a character hardly uses a power then hes going to hardly use it in a fight.

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Deadline
The hell do you think? Its like arguing that Superman is going use T-VO in a fight when for the most part he doesn't
Okay, did not know that Superman used T-vo in 50% of his fights. Apocalypse has used either flight or teleportation in half of his.
Originally posted by Deadline
You might be right but im pretty sure I could go there now and finds lots of fights without teleportation and flight.
Which would prove absolutely nothing.

And while you can not do what you just claimed, you also have a poor grasp on the rules here. Fighting to the full extent of ones abilities also seems to be a concept which is completely lost on you.
Originally posted by Deadline
Wow killer argument. I think you had better read the arc gain. Thats just one part of it. He fights the sentinels not one single example of flight or teleportation. He then fights the X- men not one single example of teleporation or flight.
He then fights the X-men again and he doesnt use flight or teleportation once its only aftewards he gets weakened by Pulse.
no expression

And? You clearly did not really understand my argument here. You see, I pointed out how Apocalypse was not at full strength and that only a person of sub-par intellect, would try and use this as an example of his average. I never once claimed that he teleported or used flight there. Here is what you responded to:
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You clearly have not looked at many fights in his respect thread, or read the -good- X-Factor comics. How else can you justify trying to use a fight where he has been drained of his blood and further weakened by Pulse as an example of his average? I mean, obviously an incredibly weakened Apocalypse is not what we'll see in this thread.
Now, while you might be an idiot (check your earlier posts for reference), it should not be difficult to notice that I do not once mention "teleportation" or "flight" in this bit. Just like how I claim that only a stupid person would justify using a weakened version as average in a thread where he is not weakened.
Originally posted by Deadline
I could be wrong maybe there are lots of examples of him teleporting or flying in combat but ive read comics with Apoc in and been to his respect thread. It seems to me for the most part he doesn't use flight or teleporating in combat so maybe you should provide some proof instead of just insulting posters.
Now, one of us is a liar.

It's you.

illadelph12

Originally posted by Deadline
Theres CIS. If a character hardly uses a power then hes going to hardly use it in a fight.

See the O.P.

Kris Blaze

I need to pick up some manners.

guy222

hey kris

wwh wins

OneDumbG0

^ Agreed.

WWH 9/10.

quanchi112

Originally posted by guy222
hey kris

wwh wins Yep.

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Okay, did not know that Superman used T-vo in 50% of his fights. Apocalypse has used either flight or teleportation in half of his.

I don't believe you. I just went to the respect thread. Alot of them aren't working but theres still alot of scans, the ones I saw I didn't see any.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

Which would prove absolutely nothing.

Yeah it would.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

And while you can not do what you just claimed, you also have a poor grasp on the rules here. Fighting to the full extent of ones abilities also seems to be a concept which is completely lost on you.

no expression

Heres your problem your too obnoxious to understand that people actually understand your point they don't agree. CIS.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

And? You clearly did not really understand my argument here. You see, I pointed out how Apocalypse was not at full strength and that only a person of sub-par intellect, would try and use this as an example of his average. I never once claimed that he teleported or used flight there. Here is what you responded to:

Now, while you might be an idiot (check your earlier posts for reference), it should not be difficult to notice that I do not once mention "teleportation" or "flight" in this bit. Just like how I claim that only a stupid person would justify using a weakened version as average in a thread where he is not weakened.

Now, one of us is a liar.

It's you.

I suspect your trolling. Even if thats not what you mean't any normal intelligent person would interpret it the way I did. The context of our discussion was how often Apoc uses flight and teleportation in fights, the whole reason why I brought that up was to show you that he doesn't always use it. Its pretty ****ing obvious that somebody would interpret you pointing out hes weakened state as a reason why he wouldn't use it. If thats not what you mean't its not my fault.

However I suspect your trolling and your not even for real. I suspect your just doing this for a laugh.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze

Now, one of us is a liar.

It's you.

Scans of flight and teleportation in combat.

Deadline

Originally posted by illadelph12
See the O.P.

Ah.

Kris Blaze

Can't believe these aren't in the respect thread. I will assume his X-Factor fights are there. These scans are from New Eternals #1 and X-Factor Annual 3, all good comics.

Vs Ikaris, we see malleability and flight here:
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/newet-p47.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/newet-p48.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/newet-p49.jpg

Vs HE, we see flight, teleportation and malleability here:
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_16_rougher.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_22_rougher.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_23_rougher.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_24_rougher.jpg

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Can't believe these aren't in the respect thread. I will assume his X-Factor fights are there. These scans are from New Eternals #1 and X-Factor Annual 3, all good comics.

Vs Ikaris, we see malleability and flight here:
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/newet-p47.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/newet-p48.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/newet-p49.jpg

Vs HE, we see flight, teleportation and malleability here:
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_16_rougher.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_22_rougher.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_23_rougher.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_24_rougher.jpg

Well thats clearly not enough anyway, not sure about him flying in the first set of scans. However the OP states that CIS off anyway so it doesn't matter now.

illadelph12

Also, the Apocalypse Respect thread needs to be updated. Most if not all of the scan links are dead.

guy222

Wish I could do it

Kris Blaze

Originally posted by Deadline
Well thats clearly not enough anyway, not sure about him flying in the first set of scans. However the OP states that CIS off anyway so it doesn't matter now.
Fighting/beating two guys above WWH isn't enough?

quanchi112

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Fighting/beating two guys above WWH isn't enough? They aren't above WW Hulk.

Deadline

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Fighting/beating two guys above WWH isn't enough?

Im not even sure if they are. I think a weaker version of Hulk decimated HE, but maybe I got the context wrong.

Xplosive

Apocalypse wins.

abhilegend

Hulk beats the shit out of Apoc.

carver9

Good fight. Current Apocalypse is a monster. I don't know who is winning this.

guy222

WWH still

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by carver9
Good fight. Current Apocalypse is a monster. I don't know who is winning this.

Flashback, not current.

Current Apoc's whereabouts are unknown, presumably captured by Celestials.

carver9

But that's the current perception of the character.

StiltmanFTW

Not how the forum rules work.

Appearing in an untold tale =/= current.

That's like saying: "Oh cool, Cap appeared in a ww2 flashback and was carrying a rifle, we're gonna use the rifle version now." Retarded.

Xplosive

X-Men didn't beat Apocalypse. They have lost against the weakest Apocalypse he has ever appeared in comics. Then Stryfe beat that Apocalypse.

There was rarely seen Apocalypse going toe to toe. He did it against Stryfe and Stryfe was easily defeated. He went against Savage Hulk and easily restrained him and warned him, Hulk got scared and obeyed him.

Then Inhumans + X-factor with all their powers (including Black Bolt) didn't even stratch him.

It was rarely seen Apocalypse going toe to toe against someone and to be bloodlusted and to go full on his opponent.

Honestly, I think the only time I've seen Apocalypse seeking someone and going bloodlusted on him was against young Thor and Stryfe.

Originally posted by Master Court
Who has Apocalypse ever physically beaten on Hulk's level? Let alone WWHulk?

Well, he has restrained Savage Hulk himself and he did it easily and then transformerd him into War Hulk.

War hulk>WWH

Originally posted by galactusischere
Jobbing, CIS and PIS are off.

In that case, Apocalypse would take it handily.