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has the gap gotten smaller if sasuke and naruto were to fight right now who would be the victor

As much as it pains me...Sasuke wins. Naruto has higher chakra, possibly faster, and all that...but Genjutsu kills, and I doubt Naruto has the strength to break through the incomplete Susanoo much less the now fully formed Susanoo. Plus unless out of character Naruto would never be going for the kill, and Sasuke would.

I think Naruto can win. I mean, look. Since Deidara, Sasuke has not once had a legit win.

Itachi: Lost on purpose.
Kirabi: Kicked Sasuke's ass completely before deciding to fake his death.
Raikage: Sasuke had to run away because Raikage and his allies were about to pound his face in.
Mizukage: Sasuke just lost this one completely, in fact he couldn't do anything to her.
Danzo: In the process of beating Sasuke handily.

For the supposed "jobber aura" Sasuke has, he sure does lose a lot...

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think Naruto can win. I mean, look. Since Deidara, Sasuke has not once had a legit win.

Itachi: Lost on purpose.
Kirabi: Kicked Sasuke's ass completely before deciding to fake his death.
Raikage: Sasuke had to run away because Raikage and his allies were about to pound his face in.
Mizukage: Sasuke just lost this one completely, in fact he couldn't do anything to her.
Danzo: In the process of beating Sasuke handily.

For the supposed "jobber aura" Sasuke has, he sure does lose a lot... In all fairness...all of them with maybe the exception of Mizukage can beat Naruto also.

Originally posted by Kento
In all fairness...all of them with maybe the exception of Mizukage can beat Naruto also. i dont believe that, i think if sasuke didn't have the sharengan this fight would be way to easy for naruto, that bloodline is just way too uber. i mean look at all that sasuke can do now, black flames(forgot what they are called), susanoo, illusions, and the regular cheapness of being able to see...well everything lol. i think the people he was fighting just knew how to fight against the illusions, and raikage just would not give up lol. but i think naruto is stronger than raikage in sage mode...possibly faster? raikage is crazy fast. bee is really cheep because he has control of his beast....so yeah he could probably beat naruto lol

Edit: but your point still stands LOL

well once we find out what itachi gave naruto we just might be able to answer this question, i think that will be something really important...if not then its really dumb

Originally posted by Kento
In all fairness...all of them with maybe the exception of Mizukage can beat Naruto also.
I seriously doubt it.

Naruto has the strength and speed to beat bee, and if it comes down to biju his is better.

Raikage, same. Just because he makes Sasuke look slow, does not mean he will have the same result on sage mode naruto, who is one of the fastest/strongest in the series.

Mizukage, lol Sasuke got owned badly, Naruto can beat her quickly before she mists everything (though to be fair, sasuke should have won that imo, one amaterasu could have finished her).

Let's also not forget Tsuchikage, apparently if not for Madara's intervention he would have annihilated Sasuke with that one jutsu despite susanoo. Naruto meanwhile would be too fast.

Even though imo Naruto only beat Pain thanks to extreme PIS, Pain>most of the people who have stomped sasuke.

Originally posted by menokokoro
i dont believe that, i think if sasuke didn't have the sharengan this fight would be way to easy for naruto, that bloodline is just way too uber. i mean look at all that sasuke can do now, black flames(forgot what they are called), susanoo, illusions, and the regular cheapness of being able to see...well everything lol. i think the people he was fighting just knew how to fight against the illusions, and raikage just would not give up lol. but i think naruto is stronger than raikage in sage mode...possibly faster? raikage is crazy fast. bee is really cheep because he has control of his beast....so yeah he could probably beat naruto lol

Edit: but your point still stands LOL
on what basis do you have that naruto is stronger and faster than raikage.

Originally posted by yungz22
on what basis do you have that naruto is stronger and faster than raikage.
He tossed that rhino super-high, which is as good as anything Raikage's done.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He tossed that rhino super-high, which is as good as anything Raikage's done.

i guess but throwing is different than punching strength ook at the crater raikage made when piledrived sasuke has naruto ever physically created an effect like that. plus he penetrated jugo's mark pretty easily. Also didnt raikage break suigetsu's sword and crack susanoo

Originally posted by yungz22
i guess but throwing is different than punching strength ook at the crater raikage made when piledrived sasuke has naruto ever physically created an effect like that. plus he penetrated jugo's mark pretty easily. Also didnt raikage break suigetsu's sword and crack susanoo
Well don't forget the rhino was charging at full speed and he stopped it in it's tracks with one hand. That's probably the best strength feat in the series (Tsunade wielding Gamabunta's knife is close).

Originally posted by yungz22
has the gap gotten smaller if sasuke and naruto were to fight right now who would be the victor

Naruto, if he uses Sage Mode.
Sasuke otherwise, despite current Sasuke being a supreme disappointment.


So basically, logically, Naruto wins.

Originally posted by yungz22
on what basis do you have that naruto is stronger and faster than raikage.
He's definitely a lot stronger. Faster, probably not, IMO Raikage is the fastest character when it comes to pure, actual speed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well don't forget the rhino was charging at full speed and he stopped it in it's tracks with one hand. That's probably the best strength feat in the series (Tsunade wielding Gamabunta's knife is close).
im pretty sure raikage can do all that what im talking about is striking power. onlyperson i can remember that do do damage equal to raikage when it comes to a punch is rock lee and he had gates activated

Originally posted by yungz22
im pretty sure raikage can do all that what im talking about is striking power. onlyperson i can remember that do do damage equal to raikage when it comes to a punch is rock lee and he had gates activated
He can just use rasengan...

Originally posted by King Kandy
He can just use rasengan...

but also raikge has that extreme speed face it naruto cant beat raikage he is too strong also the fact that he isnt afraid of pain makes him even more of a threat. the man cut of his arm a without thinkin twice

Originally posted by yungz22
butalso raikge has that extreme speed face naruto cant beat raikage he is to strong also the fact that he isnt afraid of pain makes him even more of a threat. the man cut of his a without thinkin twice
Sage Mode Naruto is just as strong as Raikage (remember when he lifted the stone toad). His speed is off the charts as well, maybe Raikage is faster but the two are at least comparable, so no speedblitz.

Of course, Raikage kicks sasuke's ass, and i'm sure naruto would as well, which is what this thread is really about.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Sage Mode Naruto is just as strong as Raikage (remember when he lifted the stone toad). His speed is off the charts as well, maybe Raikage is faster but the two are at least comparable, so no speedblitz.

Of course, Raikage kicks sasuke's ass, and i'm sure naruto would as well, which is what this thread is really about.
yea true we did get of topic but you said he could beat raikage and truly he cant you guys keep naming strength to pick things up which is totally diffrent than striking some thing when you lift something you use all the muscles in you body when you punch you use way less naruto hasnt done anything to physically match raikage

Originally posted by King Kandy
I seriously doubt it.

Naruto has the strength and speed to beat bee, and if it comes down to biju his is better.

Raikage, same. Just because he makes Sasuke look slow, does not mean he will have the same result on sage mode naruto, who is one of the fastest/strongest in the series.

Mizukage, lol Sasuke got owned badly, Naruto can beat her quickly before she mists everything (though to be fair, sasuke should have won that imo, one amaterasu could have finished her).

Let's also not forget Tsuchikage, apparently if not for Madara's intervention he would have annihilated Sasuke with that one jutsu despite susanoo. Naruto meanwhile would be too fast.

Even though imo Naruto only beat Pain thanks to extreme PIS, Pain>most of the people who have stomped sasuke. Bee has more control over his bijuu, and can fully release it, or use a large portion of it's power willingly. Naruto can only use like 3-tails without some kind of emotional trigger. So even if Kyuubi is that much stronger than Hachibi the hosts make it pointless to care. And Bee is the better fighter, and Bee had the speed to completely dominate the sharingan's pre-cog without trying.

Sage Mode Naruto may be the strongest buy he is by no means ever shown to be the fastest. He's fast yes but so far above the likes of Gai or Raikage no.

Yea, the reason I said with the exception of Mizukage.

Tsuchikage didn't even try, we know nothing about his speed. And Sasuke was half-dead, and low on chakra when Tsuchikage did the technique. So who knows what would happen.

And Pain > Naruto easily except because of PIS. Naruto beating Pain doesn't make him suddenly stronger than everybody. It was PIS, and he was dead to rights after using all his Sage Mode clones, and fighting a weakened Pain. Pain had been at full power he wouldn't have even got as far as he did before being beaten, and having to be saved by Hinata.

And most important it's not like Naruto can just go Sage Mode in the middle of any fight, he has to have the time to sit still and gather the energy even if it's just a small amount. Which Raikage sure won't do, Bee if actually fighting instead of messing around or protecting somebody won't do. Sasuke probably would do but genjutsu still kills Naruto.

Originally posted by menokokoro
i dont believe that, i think if sasuke didn't have the sharengan this fight would be way to easy for naruto, that bloodline is just way too uber. i mean look at all that sasuke can do now, black flames(forgot what they are called), susanoo, illusions, and the regular cheapness of being able to see...well everything lol. i think the people he was fighting just knew how to fight against the illusions, and raikage just would not give up lol. but i think naruto is stronger than raikage in sage mode...possibly faster? raikage is crazy fast. bee is really cheep because he has control of his beast....so yeah he could probably beat naruto lol

Edit: but your point still stands LOL Of course if Sasuke didn't use Sharingan he'd loose..Naruto can become faster, stronger, and has more chakra. But in the end Naruto still has no defense against genjutsu even if Sasuke's weaker than Itachi in that department.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Of course, Raikage kicks sasuke's ass, and i'm sure naruto would as well, which is what this thread is really about. Yes, but Sasuke uses Naruto's one weakness.

^ If Naruto gets prep time, he could repeat what he did against Pein i.e. using clones for Sage Mode in order to enter Sage mode whenever he wants.

Base form Naruto loses though.

naruto is currently a BEAST. and his power of sage mode has already surpassed the pain fight.

as for sasuke cant say much about his new susano. seeing as its durability hasnt been put to the test. it hasnt shown the yata mirror to reflect attacks, and were not sure that the sword it used was the tostuka no tsurugi which traps u in a genjutsu forever. we do know that the incomplete one has melted and broken a rib before so we dont know how much it can take{it cud probably take kirin}. and we dont know the specifics of that bow{doesnt seem like anything uber compared to the genjutsu sword.

i dont think that with sennin mode and nature chakra sensing plus kyuubi that genjutsu wud work too well.

what it comes down to is amaterasu. and i think sasuke wud probably win based on that.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
naruto is currently a BEAST. and his power of sage mode has already surpassed the pain fight.

as for sasuke cant say much about his new susano. seeing as its durability hasnt been put to the test. it hasnt shown the yata mirror to reflect attacks, and were not sure that the sword it used was the tostuka no tsurugi which traps u in a genjutsu forever. we do know that the incomplete one has melted and broken a rib before so we dont know how much it can take{it cud probably take kirin}. and we dont know the specifics of that bow{doesnt seem like anything uber compared to the genjutsu sword.

i dont think that with sennin mode and nature chakra sensing plus kyuubi that genjutsu wud work too well.

what it comes down to is amaterasu. and i think sasuke wud probably win based on that.
kyubbi has never helped naaruto get out of genjutsu neither has sage mode

I seriously doubt that Genjutsu would work on Naruto. I base this on the fact that Genjutsu works by manipulating your opponent's chakra, and Naruto resisted Nagato doing so even with a chakra rod embedded in him.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I seriously doubt that Genjutsu would work on Naruto. I base this on the fact that Genjutsu works by manipulating your opponent's chakra, and Naruto resisted Nagato doing so even with a chakra rod embedded in him.
but genjjustu always works against him

Um, not while he was in sage mode...

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, not while he was in sage mode...

when pain shot naruto with those rods that wasnt genjutsu

Originally posted by yungz22
when pain shot naruto with those rods that wasnt genjutsu
No but it shows he can resist people manipulating his chakra, which is what genjutsu is...

Originally posted by King Kandy
No but it shows he can resist people manipulating his chakra, which is what genjutsu is...
but it didnt cast any illusions which is also what genjutsu does. The rods pein shot out where meant to control his body. It seemed to me more like a will thing because we both know naruto is not one to be controlled

If his chakra can't be manipulated, then he can't be affected by Genjutsu... and it's a lot harder to resist chakra being pumped through you by a giant projector than from something like eye contact.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If his chakra can't be manipulated, then he can't be affected by Genjutsu... and it's a lot harder to resist chakra being pumped through you by a giant projector than from something like eye contact. But genjutsu, and the chakra rods work in completely different ways. You can't really compare the two.

Naruto needs to start a fight in base mode and then turn into sage reliably to actually win this fight as easy as he should.

We need to see what Kyuubi Sage mode can do.

Originally posted by Kento
But genjutsu, and the chakra rods work in completely different ways. You can't really compare the two.
It seemed to me that naruto breaking out of the rods control had more to do with willpower

Originally posted by yungz22
It seemed to me that naruto breaking out of the rods control had more to do with willpower Yea, and we've never actually seen what the rods would do on any other living person.

Originally posted by yungz22
It seemed to me that naruto breaking out of the rods control had more to do with willpower
I think it had more to do with Kyuubi-enhanced sage mode...

Tough to say.



Itachi and Kisame would have gotten their asses kicked by Jiraiya.

Jiraiya got his ass kicked by the pains...but would have won had he known the real Pain was somewhere else.

Naruto only won his fight with Pain because Pain started to monologue...but he got much further with just the pain bodies, alone. The idea that Pain was "weak" helped Naruto win is wrong. Pain showed even more abilities in the beginning of their fight, than Pain did against Jiraiya, proving quite reliably that Naruto was better than Jiraiya at that point.


Also, for the single fastest speed feat, I already took everyone though it. It was Naruto, in sage mode or something, dashing at Deva path from a footballfield away, in less than a second...as Pain himself was counting down. So, as far as speed goes, the fastest one, as confirmed in the manga, was Naruto dashing at Deva Pain towards the end of the pre-paper tree fight. Nothing Raikage did can be proven to be faster than that.

Strength-wise, yes, Naruto has the best strength feat. He threw that massive Rhino hundreds of feet up in the air almost instantly after he stopped it. (We see the Rhino Rush, then Naruto stops it in one panel, and it is in the air hundreds of feat, one or two panels later...and the only way Naruto could have done that is if he moved his arms absurdly fast (i.e., he could probably punch just as hard as any other character, including Raikage, due to how fast he moved his arms)).

Based on all of that, there is not proof that Naruto can overcome genjutsu. He still loses despite having the fastest and strongest feats as "magic" mind control trumps naruto...unless Kyuubi someohow can do for Naruto what Kirabi's beast did for him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Tough to say.



Itachi and Kisame would have gotten their asses kicked by Jiraiya.

Jiraiya got his ass kicked by the pains...but would have won had he known the real Pain was somewhere else.

Naruto only won his fight with Pain because Pain started to monologue...but he got much further with just the pain bodies, alone. The idea that Pain was "weak" helped Naruto win is wrong. Pain showed even more abilities in the beginning of their fight, than Pain did against Jiraiya, proving quite reliably that Naruto was better than Jiraiya at that point.


Also, for the single fastest speed feat, I already took everyone though it. It was Naruto, in sage mode or something, dashing at Deva path from a footballfield away, in less than a second...as Pain himself was counting down. So, as far as speed goes, the fastest one, as confirmed in the manga, was Naruto dashing at Deva Pain towards the end of the pre-paper tree fight. Nothing Raikage did can be proven to be faster than that.

Strength-wise, yes, Naruto has the best strength feat. He threw that massive Rhino hundreds of feet up in the air almost instantly after he stopped it. (We see the Rhino Rush, then Naruto stops it in one panel, and it is in the air hundreds of feat, one or two panels later...and the only way Naruto could have done that is if he moved his arms absurdly fast (i.e., he could probably punch just as hard as any other character, including Raikage, due to how fast he moved his arms)).

Based on all of that, there is not proof that Naruto can overcome genjutsu. He still loses despite having the fastest and strongest feats as "magic" mind control trumps naruto...unless Kyuubi someohow can do for Naruto what Kirabi's beast did for him.

speed wise naruto only went in front of tsunade and she was about 20-30ft away fro him not a football field away. sasuke has done the same in countless occasions. like when he blitz that cs2 user. he was probably equal distance away if not farther.

now that strength wise he is not as strong as raikage becuase when naruto punched demon pain it did not have same effect that raikage has when he punches things. When raikage punches its like has the affect that rasengan has on areas. based on your logic that a throw takes the same energy as a punch im pretty sure that raikage could probably launch that summon even higher in the air.

Originally posted by yungz22
speed wise naruto only went in front of tsunade and she was about 20-30ft away fro him not a football field away.

That was the beginning of the fight. I clearly indcated at the end of their fight.

No harm, no foul, right?

Originally posted by yungz22
sasuke has done the same in countless occasions. like when he blitz that cs2 user. he was probably equal distance away if not farther.

This would be a really good point if you were using the same scene I was. Lucky I didn't use that one, right? (I'd be pwned pretty hardcore, right now, if I had.)

Originally posted by yungz22
now that strength wise he is not as strong as raikage becuase when naruto punched demon pain it did not have same effect that raikage has when he punches things. When raikage punches its like has the affect that rasengan has on areas. based on your logic that a throw takes the same energy as a punch im pretty sure that raikage could probably launch that summon even higher in the air.

You've got that logic backwards. Based on what we see, Raikage would launch the animal a much shorter distance.


This:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/04/

Does not even come close to comparing to the crater Naruto can make with just his wind Sharingan.



And, which pain is the demon pain?

Originally posted by dadudemon
That was the beginning of the fight. I clearly indcated at the end of their fight.

No harm, no foul, right?



This would be a really good point if you were using the same scene I was. Lucky I didn't use that one, right? (I'd be pwned pretty hardcore, right now, if I had.)



You've got that logic backwards. Based on what we see, Raikage would launch the animal a much shorter distance.


This:


Does not even come close to comparing to the crater Naruto can make with just his wind Sharingan.



And, which pain is the demon pain?

lmao well let me correct my self lol sasuke blitzed that cs2 user in less time and at the same or greater distance than when naruto tried to punch Deva pain.... i got mixed up because naruto never hit pain he just got there so i thought you were talking about the beginning of the fight when he punched demon realm who is the guy Kakashi impaled with lightning blade

oh and the person's logic i was going by was king kandy.

Also windshuriken is a jutsu im talking about physical strength. the only strength feat people can use is when naruto threw that summon now when i say raikage is stronger im talking about only throwing power, impact strength too. because throwing and punching are too different things one takes two hands the other only takes one now if Raikage can do this

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/04/

with one hand what makes you think he cant throw that summon even farther than naruto did because throwing usually takes two arms. my argument is raikage has shown more strength capability than naruto.
lol this argument isnt even about this its about naruto..... my conclusion with that is I think this would be a good fight although i think the outcome will be the same as before because of those eyes. they are tooooo powerful

Originally posted by yungz22
lmao well let me correct my self lol sasuke blitzed that cs2 user in less time and at the same or greater distance than when naruto tried to punch Deva pain....


How do you know?

Why is it not more likely a genjutus than actual speed? There's nothing to prove that what Sasuke did was speed or not speed. We simply don't know.


Edit - And from what we see in the anime, it's more likely a genjutsu. It'd have to be because Sasuke cannot teleport.

Originally posted by yungz22
i got mixed up because naruto never hit pain he just got there so i thought you were talking about the beginning of the fight when he punched demon realm who is the guy Kakashi impaled with lightning blade

oh and the person's logic i was going by was king kandy.

Cool. And, like I said, no harm, no foul, DUUUDE!!

Originally posted by yungz22
Also windshuriken is a jutsu im talking about physical strength not only throwing power, impact strength too. because throwing and punching are too different things one takes two hands the other only takes one

It doesn't matter if it's a jutus. If Naruto was weak, he'd be blown away every bit as the ground was.

And, Naruto didn't throw his wind Shuriken, did he? He didn't have the ability to do that, yet, I though.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That was the beginning of the fight. I clearly indcated at the end of their fight.

No harm, no foul, right?



This would be a really good point if you were using the same scene I was. Lucky I didn't use that one, right? (I'd be pwned pretty hardcore, right now, if I had.)



You've got that logic backwards. Based on what we see, Raikage would launch the animal a much shorter distance.


This:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/04/

Does not even come close to comparing to the crater Naruto can make with just his wind Sharingan.



And, which pain is the demon pain?


lmao well let me correct my self lol sasuke blitzed that cs2 user in less time and at the same or greater distance than when naruto tried to punch Deva pain.... i got mixed up because naruto never hit pain he just got there so i thought you were talking about the beginning of the fight when he punched demon realm who is the guy Kakashi impaled with lightning blade

oh and the person's logic i was going by was king kandy.

Also windshuriken is a jutsu im talking about physical strength. the only strength feat people can use is when naruto threw that summon now when i say raikage is stronger im talking about only throwing power, impact strength too. because throwing and punching are too different things one takes two hands the other only takes one now if Raikage can do this

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/04/

with one hand what makes you think he cant throw that summon even farther than naruto did because throwing usually takes two arms. my argument is raikage has shown more strength capability than naruto.
lol this argument isnt even about this its about naruto..... my conclusion with that is I think this would be a good fight although i think the outcome will be the same as before because of those eyes. they are tooooo powerful i dont know what the heck happened with my last post

Originally posted by dadudemon
How do you know?

Why is it not more likely a genjutus than actual speed? There's nothing to prove that what Sasuke did was speed or not speed. We simply don't know.


Edit - And from what we see in the anime, it's more likely a genjutsu. It'd have to be because Sasuke cannot teleport.




http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-530452/naruto-shippuden-117/

start at 9m30sec

thats foot speed my friend you can see the dust trial at his feet

Originally posted by dadudemon
How do you know?

Why is it not more likely a genjutus than actual speed? There's nothing to prove that what Sasuke did was speed or not speed. We simply don't know.


Edit - And from what we see in the anime, it's more likely a genjutsu. It'd have to be because Sasuke cannot teleport.

No Sharingan. We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.
Also, Yungz pointed out the dust trail. It was speed, and we also see Sasuke start to move in the anime.

~ Kirabi's feats are also worth mentioning, particularly the one where he appears on a mountain that was about a mile away just after Juugo tries to attack him. It most likely was a speed feat.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No Sharingan. We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.
Also, Yungz pointed out the dust trail. It was speed, and we also see Sasuke start to move in the anime.

~ Kirabi's feats are also worth mentioning, particularly the one where he appears on a mountain that was about a mile away just after Juugo tries to attack him. It most likely was a speed feat.

yea that speed feat is up there in the rankings

Originally posted by yungz22
http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-530452/naruto-shippuden-117/

start at 9m30sec

thats foot speed my friend you can see the dust trial at his feet

I've seen that.


However, there's three problems with using that as evidence:

1. It is not canon.

2. it doesn't prove or disprove anythign I've stated. It just adds to the ambiguity.

3. We haven't seen Naruto in Sage mode, yet.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No Sharingan. We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.
Also, Yungz pointed out the dust trail. It was speed, and we also see Sasuke start to move in the anime.

~ Kirabi's feats are also worth mentioning, particularly the one where he appears on a mountain that was about a mile away just after Juugo tries to attack him. It most likely was a speed feat.

When did the sharingan become necessary to do genjutsu?

Depends on how naruto reacts to genjutsu. If he can put up good resistance to it then he wins. In sage mode he is the strongest guy in the show and at least the second fastest. Not to mention he has some of the most powerful jutsus as well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I've seen that.


However, there's three problems with using that as evidence:

1. It is not canon.

2. it doesn't prove or disprove anythign I've stated. It just adds to the ambiguity.

3. We haven't seen Naruto in Sage mode, yet.




When did the sharingan become necessary to do genjutsu?

We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.

If you're talking about the the dust trail being non-canon, it isn't, it's there in the manga. Also, I don't get how the anime paints it as genjutsu, considering we see Sasuke start to move.

~ That speed feat of Naruto's is also ambiguous to an extent, as he could have had help from a clone, after all, he moves that way again when trying to hit Deva Path with the Rasengan.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.


But the burden is on you to prove that he has to use his sharingan to do genjutsu. Since we know for a fact that he doesn't, there's not point in stating that Sasuke cannot do genjutsu without his sharingan.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If you're talking about the the dust trail being non-canon, it isn't, it's there in the manga. Also, I don't get how the anime paints it as genjutsu, considering we see Sasuke start to move.

1. Prove it.

2. But it's instant. Unless he was doing a trasnportation jutsu, it was genjutsu.

3. We see Sasuke move...then things get blank...then he instantly appers right in front of him, then he does another transport thingie and ends up towards Sasuke's left. He either teleported twice or he used genjutsu.





Fact is, Naruto has the fastest speed feat from the manga. No other speed feat can comare on the most literal level. You cannot prove, with the manga, that anything was faster than Naruto's speed feat as Naruto's speed feat is the only one assigned a time and a distance to.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But the burden is on you to prove that he has to use his sharingan to do genjutsu. Since we know for a fact that he doesn't, there's not point in stating that Sasuke cannot do genjutsu without his sharingan.

Again, I never stated that he cannot use genjutsu at all unless he is using his Sharingan.
I stated that he has never been shown to trap someone in a genjutsu using his eyes only when his Sharingan was not active. Two very different scenarios.

If he does indeed use genjutsu without hand-seals or his sharingan AND through eye-contact only, then fair enough, I'll admit I'm wrong.

He isn't shown making hand-seals in this particular instance, nor is he shown using his Sharingan.

Originally posted by dadudemon

1. Prove it.


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/349/16/

Haven't circled it, but you can see the dust trail near Sasuke's feet. The general direction of 'increase' (i.e. dissipation of particles) is away from Sasuke showing movement.

The translator was also kind enough to put down a note for the large sfx figure.


Originally posted by dadudemon
2. But it's instant. Unless he was doing a trasnportation jutsu, it was genjutsu.


3. We see Sasuke move...then things get blank...then he instantly appers right in front of him, then he does another transport thingie and ends up towards Sasuke's left. He either teleported twice or he used genjutsu.

Bull.

a) We never see him appear right in front of that CS2 user, nor is it explicitly shown or implied that he appears in front of the guy for an instant, slash him, then move again. What is implied is that Sasuke strikes the CS2 dude as he moves past him. It was one fluid continuous 'step'.

b) Naruto's speed feat was 'instant', yet I don't see you writing it off as a teleportation jutsu. Sasuke's first speed feat in Part II was 'instant' and Yamato is certain he moved. Sakura never mentions anything about a genjutsu, and since she has superb chakra control, she most likely would have known if she were in one.

~ Body-flicker technique; basic ninja 'flash-step-like teleport-looking high speed movement' jutsu. Virtually all high-speed ninjas use this.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Fact is, Naruto has the fastest speed feat from the manga. No other speed feat can comare on the most literal level. You cannot prove, with the manga, that anything was faster than Naruto's speed feat as Naruto's speed feat is the only one assigned a time and a distance to.

This is not me trying to prove Sasuke or anyone else had a faster feat than that 'off-screen movement' speed feat of Naruto's. This is me trying to disprove Sasuke's feat being genjutsu or teleportation-based.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But the burden is on you to prove that he has to use his sharingan to do genjutsu. Since we know for a fact that he doesn't, there's not point in stating that Sasuke cannot do genjutsu without his sharingan.



1. Prove it.

2. But it's instant. Unless he was doing a trasnportation jutsu, it was genjutsu.

3. We see Sasuke move...then things get blank...then he instantly appers right in front of him, then he does another transport thingie and ends up towards Sasuke's left. He either teleported twice or he used genjutsu.





Fact is, Naruto has the fastest speed feat from the manga. No other speed feat can comare on the most literal level. You cannot prove, with the manga, that anything was faster than Naruto's speed feat as Naruto's speed feat is the only one assigned a time and a distance to.

your trying to give sasuke a new ability without him ever doing it ... thats just like saying suigetsu can use lightning jutsu even though we have never seen him do it or rock lee can use shadow clones even tho we havent seen it... you arent making any sense. sasuke is a sharingan user any genjutsu he casts is with his eyes.... which means that sasuke didnt use genjutsu because no sharaingan was activated. Itach is the only person who has cast any genjutsu without using any seals or with his finger

Originally posted by yungz22
your trying to give sasuke a new ability without him ever doing it ... thats just like saying suigetsu can use lightning jutsu even though we have never seen him do it or rock lee can use shadow clones even tho we havent seen it... you arent making any sense. sasuke is a sharingan user any genjutsu he casts is with his eyes.... which means that sasuke didnt use genjutsu because no sharaingan was activated. Itach is the only person who has cast any genjutsu without using any seals or with his finger

No I'm not. Saying Sasuke can use Genjutsu is like saying I like donuts. "Duh."

Saying Sasuke can move that fast is like saying he can teleport: that's simply not true. You're the one giving him abilities he doesn't have.

It's either teleportion or it's a genjutsu. On top of that, we really don't know how fast Sasuke is as the Anime isn't canon. It's just an interpretation.


We did see Lee's movement speed, however. It was a blur, but was could still see his speed in the manga and anime.



Also, you have no way to disprove or prove that Sasuke was using Genjutsu. You also have no way to prove or disprove that Sasuke can't do genjutsu in a similar fashion as Itachi. In fact, we DO know that Sasuke can do Genjutsu without any noticable signs. See his fight with Itachi. The first half of their fight was completely had in Genjutsu and we don't see either of them do hand seals.

That would make sense since Oro was Sasuke's teacher so he would teach/tell Sasuke to develop an affinity for Gentjusu to the point of being on par with Itachi...at worst, Sasuke is good enough to keep from getting destroyed.

I think what Danzo said about Sasuke's ability with Genjutsu compared to Itachi isn't true at all, but just someting he was doing to get Sasuke angry.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No I'm not. Saying Sasuke can use Genjutsu is like saying I like donuts. "Duh."

Saying Sasuke can move that fast is like saying he can teleport: that's simply not true. You're the one giving him abilities he doesn't have.

It's either teleportion or it's a genjutsu. On top of that, we really don't know how fast Sasuke is as the Anime isn't canon. It's just an interpretation.


We did see Lee's movement speed, however. It was a blur, but was could still see his speed in the manga and anime.



Also, you have no way to disprove or prove that Sasuke was using Genjutsu. You also have no way to prove or disprove that Sasuke can't do genjutsu in a similar fashion as Itachi. In fact, we DO know that Sasuke can do Genjutsu without any noticable signs. See his fight with Itachi. The first half of their fight was completely had in Genjutsu and we don't see either of them do hand seals.

That would make sense since Oro was Sasuke's teacher so he would teach/tell Sasuke to develop an affinity for Gentjusu to the point of being on par with Itachi...at worst, Sasuke is good enough to keep from getting destroyed.

I think what Danzo said about Sasuke's ability with Genjutsu compared to Itachi isn't true at all, but just someting he was doing to get Sasuke angry.



Yea he didnt use hand seals but he was using the sharingan.....you cant just change sasuke's whole fighting style to your likeing just to disprove a point. sasuke doesnt know any teleportaion jutsu it is proven that sasuke does have the shunshin jutsu which is movement at extreme speed.. Yamato, Tobi, and deidara have seen it and praised his speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/07/-notice how far he is itz farther than the cs2 user he did it against
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/

if it was teleportation there would be no dust trail there is a dust trail and the sound effect says fast movement on the pic in the post before and in this one should i show another

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/14/ this was not teleportation because yamato said he fast

Originally posted by yungz22
Yea he didnt use hand seals but he was using the sharingan.....you cant just change sasuke's whole fighting style to your likeing just to disprove a point. sasuke doesnt know any teleportaion jutsu it is proven that sasuke does have the shunshin jutsu which is movement at extreme speed.. Yamato, Tobi, and deidara have seen it and praised his speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/07/-notice how far he is itz farther than the cs2 user he did it against
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/

if it was teleportation there would be no dust trail there is a dust trail and the sound effect says fast movement on the pic in the post before and in this one should i show another

1. That's not what we were talking about, so this is a strawman argument.

2. It clearly shows his speed as not instant as Tobi has enough time ot think about him being fast.

Originally posted by yungz22
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/14/ this was not teleportation because yamato said he fast

Yamato does say he's fast. But, he notices his traveling (as shown by the "fast" perception" lines in the background in his panel.)

It's definitely not teleportion, and it's definitely not genjutus. It's just really fast travel, but, still, it cannot be proven to be faster than Naruto's feat. If you want to go the illogical route of "panels" as a function of time, we can:



First, here's Naruto proving that he's everybit as stronger if not stronger than the Raikage:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/12/

He kicks the mo fo into a rock, really far away, and he creates a "damage are" in an area larger than the one Raikage created with mr. berserk. That's a direct feat to feat comparison with Naruto showing he's stronger.


Also, shortly thereafter, he covers a similar distance, in one panel, that Sasuke covered. Well, wait, he covered the same distance that sasuke covered in 2 panels, to be exact.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No I'm not. Saying Sasuke can use Genjutsu is like saying I like donuts. "Duh."

Saying Sasuke can move that fast is like saying he can teleport: that's simply not true. You're the one giving him abilities he doesn't have.

It's either teleportion or it's a genjutsu. On top of that, we really don't know how fast Sasuke is as the Anime isn't canon. It's just an interpretation.

So you're just going to ignore the dust on the ground near Sasuke's feet, the SFX figure, and the trail of blood from the sword? Nice.

You are also giving him an ability he has never demonstrated before. We do not see him make any hand-seals prior to dispatching the CS2 user. Sasuke's Sharingan was obviously not active.

Every time he uses genjutsu, he either has his Sharingan activated, or uses hand-seals, or both.
He has NEVER used a genjutsu without either his Sharingan or hand-seals. Saying that he can perform genjutsu without using his Sharingan or hand-seals when he has never demonstrated the ability to do so before, is giving him abilities.

I have also never seen anyone else trap someone in genjutsu using eye-contact alone (and without the Sharingan activated).

It was speed. He was already shown to be stupidly fast.

Also, 2 words + expletive...

OCCAM'S RAZOR B*TCH, OCCAM'S RAZOOOOOR

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, you have no way to disprove or prove that Sasuke was using Genjutsu. You also have no way to prove or disprove that Sasuke can't do genjutsu in a similar fashion as Itachi. In fact, we DO know that Sasuke can do Genjutsu without any noticable signs. See his fight with Itachi. The first half of their fight was completely had in Genjutsu and we don't see either of them do hand seals.

Irrelevant. Yes, they don't use hand-seals, but they do have their Sharingan activated during that.
In case you haven't realized, the Sharingan does allow the user to trap someone in a genjutsu with eye-contact alone. No such ability is demonstrated by anyone when the Sharingan is not activated or is not there.

We know Kakashi used some form of hypnosis with the Sharingan against Zabuza when he was fighting him (after Naruto and Sasuke force Zabuza to release him). It isn't illogical to think that more skilled Sharingan users would be able to fully trap people in a genjutsu using eye-contact alone when their Sharingan is active. That's how Tsukiyomi is shown being used.

So basically,
Sharingan active + eye contact = Genjutsu can be used and is shown in the manga.
Sharigan not present/active + eye contact only = Not yet demonstrated, so as of now, not possible to trap someone in genjutsu this way.
Hand-seals = duh.
Hand-seals + Sharingan + eye-contact = OVERKILL!!!

Orochimaru trapped Sasuke and Sakura in a genjutsu without seals or sharingan, and Sasuke knows his jutsus.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Orochimaru trapped Sasuke and Sakura in a genjutsu without seals or sharingan, and Sasuke knows his jutsus.

that didnt really seem like genjutsu it was more like what he did sasuke did to suigetsu and jugo...Killer intent and what not

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. That's not what we were talking about, so this is a strawman argument.

2. It clearly shows his speed as not instant as Tobi has enough time ot think about him being fast.



Yamato does say he's fast. But, he notices his traveling (as shown by the "fast" perception" lines in the background in his panel.)

It's definitely not teleportion, and it's definitely not genjutus. It's just really fast travel, but, still, it cannot be proven to be faster than Naruto's feat. If you want to go the illogical route of "panels" as a function of time, we can:



First, here's Naruto proving that he's everybit as stronger if not stronger than the Raikage:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/12/

He kicks the mo fo into a rock, really far away, and he creates a "damage are" in an area larger than the one Raikage created with mr. berserk. That's a direct feat to feat comparison with Naruto showing he's stronger.


Also, shortly thereafter, he covers a similar distance, in one panel, that Sasuke covered. Well, wait, he covered the same distance that sasuke covered in 2 panels, to be exact.

My links were not irrelevent they were all example to back up that what sasuke did was not genjutsu. plus the anime link i posted backs up everything i posted making all my links both anime and manga canon. It seems like you are in denial especially when you are refusing the fact that when you run you kick up dirt.anime gives the manga movement. Its not like everything in this manga is non canon only the parts that have nothing to do with the manga are.Things like filler and extra fighting in fights are non canon. Not the movement in between panels come on man be real.


ok the link you posted there are things wrong with it. the destruction naruto caused with his kick is no where as big as raikage's punch are you crazy. also a punch and a kick are too different things if you didnt notice. to compare strength fairly you have to compare a raikage punch with a naruto punch or a raikage kick with a naruto kick

compare:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/12/-Naruto
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/04/Raikage

you say i go illogical with using a panel as a function of time but that is exactly what you are doing with naruto's speed feat. All of my links that have to do with sasuke are backed up by anime which shows movement and time. come on man you are contradicting your self.

Originally posted by yungz22
that didnt really seem like genjutsu it was more like what he did sasuke did to suigetsu and jugo...Killer intent and what not
lol, that was obviously genjutsu. They saw kunai hitting them that weren't really there. It was an illusion.

Originally posted by King Kandy
lol, that was obviously genjutsu. They saw kunai hitting them that weren't really there. It was an illusion.

actually im right it was like what sasuke did to suigetsu and jugo.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/47/09/

Originally posted by King Kandy
Orochimaru trapped Sasuke and Sakura in a genjutsu without seals or sharingan, and Sasuke knows his jutsus.

That isn't expressively genjutsu. Sasuke himself states it was just his fear and Orochimaru's killing intent, not genjutsu. Orochimaru confirms Sasuke's comment about fear later.

Because killing intent causes illusionary kunai to fly around?

yea cause jus like little kids see things when they r scared

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because killing intent causes illusionary kunai to fly around? fear caused them to freeze.....Fear is what caused sasuke and sakura to visualize their death that is why sasuke was like we are gonna die.

What orochimaru did was use his evil presence to instill fear in sasukes heart causing him to not be able to move Sasuke and oro both admitted to this. oro later used a ninjutsu on sasuke that stops him from moving so that oro can immpalt the curse mark.

genjutsu is the illusion that makes the enemy lose contact with his senses. Sasuke was fully aware of his surroundings. he then stabbed himself in order to break free from his fear.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because killing intent causes illusionary kunai to fly around?

Yes, provided they 'kill' the victim. Sasuke states what happened and Orochimaru confirms it.
It isn't even a jutsu in the first place and hasn't been labelled as such in any of the data-books iirc. So please enlighten me on how it can be classified as genjutsu.

Sasuke....much as I like Naruto and as strong as he has come, mangekyou seems too much. Amaterasu is near unavoidable and still there is the tsukuyomi. He could maybe dodge amaterasu but we've never seen Naruto break a genjutsu. Then of course the Susanoo which just became complete( through hatred?) Rasenshuriken is strong but I don't see it being hard to dodge.

id say naruto needs one more power up if he is to beat sasuuke or his ultimate power of plot device...because honestly it wouldnt make sense if naruto could beat the magekyou jutsu's....not saying its impossible just unlikely

Six-tails is apparently stronger than sage Naruto--causing Pain to resort to Chibaku Tensei.

Sasuke takes this with Susano-O, the more I think about it the more I think each of the abilities of the Mangekyo would be sufficient. Unless Itachi's crowjob somehow made him resistant to any of it.

The sage/fox mode may make it more even, though Itachi's 3 given techniques will all give naruto trouble.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The sage/fox mode may make it more even, though Itachi's 3 given techniques will all give naruto trouble.
Amaterasu will do to Kyuubi what it did to Hachibi. Sasano-O is another method.

And unless Kyuubi helps Naruto snap out of genjutsu, Tsukuyomi does him in too.

Bump, has anything changed or is the consensus the same?

At the time this thread was made, I can't recall how strong Sasuke's Susano'o was. But assuming this is just normal MS Sasuke vs Sage Mode Naruto, Sasuke would win more likely than not.

Does Naruto have the Sage Mode prepped like he did fighting Pein. Because I honestly thing he could pull out a win if we were using that Naruto.

Current Sasuke w/ EMS should win.

No idea how strong EMS Sasuke is. :O

We know he can use the MS without going blind, which alone is enough to get him a win here.

Well now im updating it to the current sasuke and naruto

Naruto blitzes his butt.

Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi.

Should be Super Effective.

Shouldn't Naruto's speed be enough to prevent direct eye contact or couldn't he just summon the frogs to his arms so that if he does get caught they would be able to snap him out of it.

Even if the toads break him out of it, it will leave a perfect opening for Amaterasu.

Originally posted by Samurai100
Even if the toads break him out of it, it will leave a perfect opening for Amaterasu.

Hmm I'd say it depends if Sauke chooses to use genjutsu right off the bat and if he could connect in the first place with Naruto's speed. But doesn't both his Kyuubi mode and Sage mode afford him a level of enhanced durability and regeneration
that may allow him to tough it out seeing as Amaratsu seems to slow burn and not immediately incinerate.

Naruto does still feel pain and Sasuke can still use Susanoo and the Amaterasu as a shield to make him near untouchable

Susanoo should provide more than adequate protection against anything Naruto can do...

umm have you guys not seen naruto dodge raikage and that is him going at full speed where raikage did almost hit the fourth hokage with that speed therefore naruto can blitz

Yeah, NOW Naruto is probably beyond Sasuke's normal MS. Genjutsu has the slim chance of working but Naruto can blitz him.

How will he blitz him when he can just summon susanoo to protect himself?

how much stronger do you think A is than Naruto?

Enough to kill him in a single blow, apparently.

I'm asking because A managed to get through Susanoo... you don't think Naruto is capable of the same thing?

That was an incomplete susanoo... Sasuke currently uses a much more evolved form so that really means nothing.

well, using that logic, we can't say anyone in the series can beat Sasuke until we see how strong sasunoo is and what it takes to break through it.

Originally posted by marwash22
I'm asking because A managed to get through Susanoo... you don't think Naruto is capable of the same thing?

With brute physical force? Lol no.
In addition to being weaker physically than A, A only got through a lower form of Susano'o, and the attack lost most of its momentum on the way.

With Rasenshuriken? Yeah.

Of course, this is just the Susano'o Sasuke displayed against Danzou. The one he displayed against Kakashi should be stronger, and it might even have the Yata Shield.

Originally posted by marwash22
I'm asking because A managed to get through Susanoo... you don't think Naruto is capable of the same thing? with a rasengan yes, def with a fuuton: rasenshuriken

raikage just used a chop from a stationary position, so it's somewhat relative to the weaker state of the susano'o.

Originally posted by marwash22
well, using that logic, we can't say anyone in the series can beat Sasuke until we see how strong sasunoo is and what it takes to break through it.
We did see how strong it was. We saw danzo attacking and attacking away and just slowly getting through the thing. even doing combination attacks to improve his power. We saw his current form with Itachi and it blocked kirin.

Until the current Sasuke shows what he's got, curent Naruto wins.