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Takes place in the amegakure buildings, just like in the first fight. Jiraiya has the knowledge he gained right before dying, that Nagato is somewhere else controlling the bodies, but that's all he has. Doesn't know where he is, or what his powers are, or anything.

We're going to be disregarding the statement Pein made about if Jiraiya knew his secret. I wanted to see if there were any actual reasons to justify that statement.

i think the outcome would b da same

Depends on what Jiraiya does with the knowledge IMO. If he goes after Nagato and doesn't fight the 6 paths, he can win. If he decides to duke it out with the 6 paths, he'd probably lose.

Course, he'd have to find him first, and that would be the main problem, as I don't know if he'd resort to Naruto's method.

Jiraya dies crushed by a moon either way, no knowledge saves him from that.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Depends on what Jiraiya does with the knowledge IMO. If he goes after Nagato and doesn't fight the 6 paths, he can win. If he decides to duke it out with the 6 paths, he'd probably lose.

Course, he'd have to find him first, and that would be the main problem, as I don't know if he'd resort to Naruto's method.


idt the 6 paths would let him jus go lookin for nagato

Originally posted by Bentley
Jiraya dies crushed by a moon either way, no knowledge saves him from that.
Yeah, exactly.

Assuming the fact Nagato isn't going to go out of character, he isn't going to destroy his village just to finish off Jiriaya. Though, even without Chibaku Tensei or whatever it was called Pain still wins. Jiraiya may have a lot of tricks up his sleeve but none of them are beating Shinra Tensei

Don't forget the other five bodies as well, Naruto may have breezed through them but Jiraiya got beat down without God Pein even fighting him.

It's because he was ambushed after thinking he beat them all. If Jiraiya knew he had six bodies not three it probably would have went a bit different, but ultimately ended the same,

i think he would have taken out five of them but god realm would finish it

No way, he had the time of his life killing three bodies, five is imo out of the question.

I'm not up to date on the mechanics of Pain's Shinra Tensei or whatever. If its one of those forever and a day attacks, then I think Pain's better off making it a 6 on 1 beatdown. If its quick to use then its just a faster victory. Either way Pain wins...again.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I'm not up to date on the mechanics of Pain's Shinra Tensei or whatever. If its one of those forever and a day attacks, then I think Pain's better off making it a 6 on 1 beatdown. If its quick to use then its just a faster victory. Either way Pain wins...again. He can use it every 5 seconds

Also Naruto is stronger than Jiraya and he also had a hard time fighting a WEAKENED Pein.

Originally posted by Bentley
Also Naruto is stronger than Jiraya and he also had a hard time fighting a WEAKENED Pein. No real proof Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya. Naruto was just able to surpass him in Sage Mode in the fact Naruto completed it. Jiraiya still is stronger even with incomplete sage mode, and a better fighter. Though it is very possible Jiraiya can win with Frog Song genjutsu but unlikely.

I don't see how the genjutsu will help, unless he gets the revival body with it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't see how the genjutsu will help, unless he gets the revival body with it. If he's fighting all six at once it will help greatly. But he would have to actually survive that long to get it ready...or well for Ma and Pa to get it ready.

yeah, that's true. but until they can prepare the attack, Jiraiya would already be going up against all 6 bodies. getting off an attack like that with people going after you is hard.

Originally posted by Kento
If he's fighting all six at once it will help greatly. But he would have to actually survive that long to get it ready...or well for Ma and Pa to get it ready.
But, this is just like the first fight they had, so he'll have to get all the bodies deployed in order to fight all of them.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But, this is just like the first fight they had, so he'll have to get all the bodies deployed in order to fight all of them. If he has the knowledge he has at death, he won't get surprised attacked. He would know all about the bodies. So he wouldn't think he won by taking out three. He got that far once he can do it again. If the fight starts out with just three bodies he has a much better shot at winning.

But, he couldn't take them out without his genjutsu, and like Pein said the same trick won't work on him twice. Even if he takes out those three and removes the receptors, he will still have to deal with the other three while exhausted, and imo he just can't do it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But, he couldn't take them out without his genjutsu, and like Pein said the same trick won't work on him twice. Even if he takes out those three and removes the receptors, he will still have to deal with the other three while exhausted, and imo he just can't do it. It's not like Pain showed any way to counter the frog song so there is nothing to prove it won't work. Pain saying some off-handed comment doesn't really cut it. Also he won't be exhausted, surprised, and will be able to use the Frog Song again. Unless Nagato decides to destroy his village that is.

Originally posted by Kento
It's not like Pain showed any way to counter the frog song so there is nothing to prove it won't work. Pain saying some off-handed comment doesn't really cut it. Also he won't be exhausted, surprised, and will be able to use the Frog Song again. Unless Nagato decides to destroy his village that is.
Don't you remember that the frogs couldn't talk well after the jutsu and said it was too hard on their throats? I doubt they could pull a second consecutive one, and Pein could just pull it towards him and skewer him like he did the second time.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Don't you remember that the frogs couldn't talk well after the jutsu and said it was too hard on their throats? I doubt they could pull a second consecutive one, and Pein could just pull it towards him and skewer him like he did the second time. Forgot the first part.

alot of pains's strenght is based on the fact that you dont know his abilities having said that. according to the rules jiraiya is going to know about all 6 pains and their abilities... this plays a big factor because look what naruto did to them.... he had a heads up on their powers that gave him the ability to counter their attacks accordingly...that being said the only problem i see here is deva pain. with him its more of a hit or miss thing with him there are a number of ways jiraiya could beat him and and a number of ways he could lose

Originally posted by yungz22
alot of pains's strenght is based on the fact that you dont know his abilities having said that. according to the rules jiraiya is going to know about all 6 pains and their abilities... this plays a big factor because look what naruto did to them.... he had a heads up on their powers that gave him the ability to counter their attacks accordingly...that being said the only problem i see here is deva pain. with him its more of a hit or miss thing with him there are a number of ways jiraiya could beat him and and a number of ways he could lose
Jiraiya only knows the powers of the first three. The last three never used anything except physical attacks in their fight.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jiraiya only knows the powers of the first three. The last three never used anything except physical attacks in their fight. oh i must of read it wrong well my point still stands if Jiraiya knew the powers of the all the pains he might do better keyword might

Jiraiya would still lose regardless.

Do you people even watch Naruto or understand what you are reading? Pain has stated himself if Jiraiya new about all of his secrets when they fought Jiraiya would of most likely won. Good grief you people who like anime are sure clueless.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Do you people even watch Naruto or understand what you are reading? Pain has stated himself if Jiraiya new about all of his secrets when they fought Jiraiya would of most likely won. Good grief you people who like anime are sure clueless. And then Pain goes and uses Chibaku Tensei which destroyed Jiraiya completely. So..yea doubtful that Jiraiya could've won even knowing anything. He'd have done better probably cause he wouldn't have been ambushed but still.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Do you people even watch Naruto or understand what you are reading? Pain has stated himself if Jiraiya new about all of his secrets when they fought Jiraiya would of most likely won. Good grief you people who like anime are sure clueless.
Read the opening post before you say something stupid. This is a thread DISREGARDING that statement as one of the conditions of the fight.

I think Jiraiya wins because he knows how to locate Pain without having to stab himself with the controls rods (cause he knows his secret and he's smart enough) so he sends a giant toad after the real pain to just jump right on him while Jiraiya pulls away, with a shadow clone, away from the other 6 Pains.


That, or he goes into the mix, with several shadow clones, BEFORE attacking...figures out where the body is before Pain knows he going to attack, and kills Pain.


There's tons and tons and tons of scripted things you could come up with, if the person knows Pain's secret before Jiraiya attacks.

Why would Jiraiya look for anything other than the real Pain if he knew the secret? There's no reason to even fight the others....at all. That's why Pain said what he said. Think outside the box, dudes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think Jiraiya wins because he knows how to locate Pain without having to stab himself with the controls rods (cause he knows his secret and he's smart enough) so he sends a giant toad after the real pain to just jump right on him while Jiraiya pulls away, with a shadow clone, away from the other 6 Pains.


That, or he goes into the mix, with several shadow clones, BEFORE attacking...figures out where the body is before Pain knows he going to attack, and kills Pain.


There's tons and tons and tons of scripted things you could come up with, if the person knows Pain's secret before Jiraiya attacks.

Why would Jiraiya look for anything other than the real Pain if he knew the secret? There's no reason to even fight the others....at all. That's why Pain said what he said. Think outside the box, dudes. Getting to Nagato might not be hard but Nagato isn't exactly powerless himself. After all it was him, and not some puppet bodies that killed Hanzo and all the other Rain Village ninjas, and Konoha root ninja he killed.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think Jiraiya wins because he knows how to locate Pain without having to stab himself with the controls rods (cause he knows his secret and he's smart enough) so he sends a giant toad after the real pain to just jump right on him while Jiraiya pulls away, with a shadow clone, away from the other 6 Pains.


That, or he goes into the mix, with several shadow clones, BEFORE attacking...figures out where the body is before Pain knows he going to attack, and kills Pain.


There's tons and tons and tons of scripted things you could come up with, if the person knows Pain's secret before Jiraiya attacks.

Why would Jiraiya look for anything other than the real Pain if he knew the secret? There's no reason to even fight the others....at all. That's why Pain said what he said. Think outside the box, dudes.
The reason to fight the others is that he has to. They're attacking him. His only alternative is pretty much letting them beat on him, or running away which won't necessarily take him anywhere productive.

Nagato has the powers of all six pein bodies, and they protect him, so I don't see why he would be able to beat Nagato even if they met ftf. Nagato can also control his body if he is close enough.

Why disregard a statement a character made out of his mouth? That is like asking who would win Jiraiya or Kisame when Kisame already said he couldn't win.

How about you make a thread called Nine Tailed Naruto vs Kiba but then make a hilarious stipulation even though we know Kiba wouldnt win.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Why disregard a statement a character made out of his mouth? That is like asking who would win Jiraiya or Kisame when Kisame already said he couldn't win.

How about you make a thread called Nine Tailed Naruto vs Kiba but then make a hilarious stipulation even though we know Kiba wouldnt win. Because Pain goes and does Chibaku Tensei, and Shinra Tensei after. Pain has every single advantage. Jiraiya will never get close, and all of his attacks pretty much end up void with the exception of Frog Song. If Pain wanted he could lay out pretty much anybody in Naruto with one Shinra Tensei. He laid out Gamabunta and two other summons with one that wasn't even full powered. And Jiraiya is suppose to run from a man who can pull him back towards him if he so wished? And there is no reason to think Nagato himself doesn't have the same abilities. It's his chakra, him controlling the bodies. So even if he somehow got to Nagato and away from the bodies how does that help? Without some off chance of getting Frog Song off without Nagato getting him.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Why disregard a statement a character made out of his mouth? That is like asking who would win Jiraiya or Kisame when Kisame already said he couldn't win.

How about you make a thread called Nine Tailed Naruto vs Kiba but then make a hilarious stipulation even though we know Kiba wouldnt win.
That thread would be easy, because the nine tailed fox has feats that prove he is above kiba.

It seems the only ways for Jiraiya to wins is if he tries to take on all six bodies.(not at once though) If e tries running away he'll just be beaten down...again. Tries taking them all at once is just a death sentence and I don't think the other bodies would let Jiraiya go to Nagato.

If he tries to take them out one by one, they'll be revived if he doesn't get the revival pein first.

Originally posted by Kento
Getting to Nagato might not be hard but Nagato isn't exactly powerless himself. After all it was him, and not some puppet bodies that killed Hanzo and all the other Rain Village ninjas, and Konoha root ninja he killed.

Jiraiya was his young self, not his "learned and wise" Sage self, when he fought Hanzo. He came a long way since his days of fighting Hanzo.


Pain is definitely formidible in his own form, for sure. However, an enraged sage mode Naruto resisted Pain's body control technique.


I was thinking more along the lines of Jiraiya summoning a giant massive toad, then have the toad jump super high in the air and land right on top of Pain. The aind.


Originally posted by King Kandy
The reason to fight the others is that he has to. They're attacking him. His only alternative is pretty much letting them beat on him, or running away which won't necessarily take him anywhere productive.

Nagato has the powers of all six pein bodies, and they protect him, so I don't see why he would be able to beat Nagato even if they met ftf. Nagato can also control his body if he is close enough.

But that's not what Pain meant when he said Jiraiya could beat him if he knew his secret.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Jiraiya was his young self, not his "learned and wise" Sage self, when he fought Hanzo. He came a long way since his days of fighting Hanzo.


Pain is definitely formidible in his own form, for sure. However, an enraged sage mode Naruto resisted Pain's body control technique.


I was thinking more along the lines of Jiraiya summoning a giant massive toad, then have the toad jump super high in the air and land right on top of Pain. The aind. And Nagato was his young self not his super body puppet, dispel any move self when he killed Hanzo and a bunch of others by ripping out their soul.

He's had a lot of practice with Kyuubi. Jiraiya had to get Pa Frog to get out the rod that was in him.

How is that going to stop Shinra Tensei? lol

Originally posted by Kento
And Nagato was his young self not his super body puppet, dispel any move self when he killed Hanzo and a bunch of others by ripping out their soul.

He's had a lot of practice with Kyuubi. Jiraiya had to get Pa Frog to get out the rod that was in him.

How is that going to stop Shinra Tensei? lol
thats not fair jiraiya had one arm how cold he have taken it out

Originally posted by dadudemon
Pain is definitely formidible in his own form, for sure. However, an enraged sage mode Naruto resisted Pain's body control technique.
No, it was kyuubi sage mode that did that and we see the kyuubi's chakra overpowering Pein's there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/04/

Obviously an ability that Jiraiya lacks.


Originally posted by dadudemon
I was thinking more along the lines of Jiraiya summoning a giant massive toad, then have the toad jump super high in the air and land right on top of Pain. The aind.

The toad probably won't even fit in the building... and even then shinra tensei will stop it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But that's not what Pain meant when he said Jiraiya could beat him if he knew his secret.
What exactly did he mean, then?

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, it was kyuubi sage mode that did that and we see the kyuubi's chakra overpowering Pein's there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/04/

Obviously an ability that Jiraiya lacks.




The toad probably won't even fit in the building... and even then shinra tensei will stop it.


What exactly did he mean, then?

that was narutos will power the fox part was shown to demonstrate naruto's rage because that only comes out when he is mad

Originally posted by yungz22
thats not fair jiraiya had one arm how cold he have taken it out Which side did it hit him on?

Originally posted by yungz22
that was narutos will power the fox part was shown to demonstrate naruto's rage because that only comes out when he is mad
That is not even remotely implied... Naruto's eyes turned into his fox form eyes and we clearly see kyuubi chakra in Nagato the same way we saw Rinnegan chakra in the people Pein stabbed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That is not even remotely implied... Naruto's eyes turned into his fox form eyes and we clearly see kyuubi chakra in Nagato the same way we saw Rinnegan chakra in the people Pein stabbed.
ok look at the evidence that is not the first time th fox has appeared behind people like that...that form of naruto only comes out when he is enraged.... the rinnigan eyes come out to show that you are under his influence

Originally posted by Kento
Which side did it hit him on? it was on the side that had the arm

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, it was kyuubi sage mode that did that and we see the kyuubi's chakra overpowering Pein's there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/04/

Obviously an ability that Jiraiya lacks.

I'm aware of this: ergo my saying enraged sage-mode (which is an incompatible dichotomy as I remember papa toad sage saying he couldn't mix the two because the fox's chakra was too volatile or something.)

And, there's nothing that says that it takes the enraged sage-mode to resist Pain, at all. Seems more of a willpower thing, something naruto and Jiraiya have common.


Originally posted by King Kandy
The toad probably won't even fit in the building... and even then shinra tensei will stop it.


What exactly did he mean, then?

Oh, so now this toad, which jumps out of the sky to an unwitting Pain, and falls on him, and crushes him, is all of a sudden trying to walk into the building? That doesn't really fit well with what we were talking about.

He meant exactly as I have been describing it: if he knew his secret, he would have definitely pursued other methods of getting at Pain instead of his bodies. Remember that he bodies were almost all in these coffin type thingies with one or two, at most, being up and about. Drop a giant toad on the bodies: they are done. The other one or two go to investigate, another toad drops on the distracted Pain. The aind.



Like I said, there's a million and one ways Jiraiya could execute Pain, if he knew his secret. We could script this all day with many different things simply because Jiraiya has tons of chakra and a sage-mode.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Like I said, there's a million and one ways Jiraiya could execute Pain, if he knew his secret. We could script this all day with many different things simply because Jiraiya has tons of chakra and a sage-mode. Yea if you simply forget all of the bodies abilities. Or Animal Realm is the girl version, and Pain is severely weakened.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea if you simply forget all of the bodies abilities. Or Animal Realm is the girl version, and Pain is severely weakened.

How are the bodies supposed to do anything while they are in their suspended state? I really believe Pain when he says Jiraiya could have killed him if he had known his secret. I seems everyone is hung up on the fact that Jiraiya has to start the fight with all the bodies active and aware of Jiraiya. That's not the case, nor would it be: Jiraiya is an effin' ninja...you know....the most highly trained assassin/combat units in their world? Jiraiya was one of their strongest (at the time). At the very least, he was top 5.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a fully "awakened" Pain is really the strongest character in the series. Would I be wrong in assuming that?

Originally posted by dadudemon
How are the bodies supposed to do anything while they are in their suspended state? I really believe Pain when he says Jiraiya could have killed him if he had known his secret. I seems everyone is hung up on the fact that Jiraiya has to start the fight with all the bodies active and aware of Jiraiya. That's not the case, nor would it be: Jiraiya is an effin' ninja...you know....the most highly trained assassin/combat units in their world? Jiraiya was one of their strongest (at the time). At the very least, he was top 5.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a fully "awakened" Pain is really the strongest character in the series. Would I be wrong in assuming that? As soon as Jiraiya steps into Rain Village he is known about. No sneaking around is going to help. Also knowing Nagato's secret doesn't suddenly equal knowing where the bodies are. or where Nagato is. And the only body really needed is always up and running with knowledge of where Jiraiya is at all times because of the rain.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm aware of this: ergo my saying enraged sage-mode (which is an incompatible dichotomy as I remember papa toad sage saying he couldn't mix the two because the fox's chakra was too volatile or something.)

And, there's nothing that says that it takes the enraged sage-mode to resist Pain, at all. Seems more of a willpower thing, something naruto and Jiraiya have common.

iirc, in that instance, Pa was talking about why he could not help Naruto enter Sage Mode as was the case with Jiraiya. Hence Naruto had to leave behind clones, or perfect his Sage mode or something.

Originally posted by Kento
As soon as Jiraiya steps into Rain Village he is known about. No sneaking around is going to help. Also knowing Nagato's secret doesn't suddenly equal knowing where the bodies are. or where Nagato is. And the only body really needed is always up and running with knowledge of where Jiraiya is at all times because of the rain.

I disagree. Jiraiya enters the belly of a toad, the toad enters, covertly, and Jiraiya does some searching until he finds Pain. Summon, splat. done.


He can also Summon the toad outside the village, once he finds Pain, and then have the gigantic toad....or two, jump from outside the village, right into it.







Should I go on?


I mean, we can script out tons of different ways for Jiraiya to kill an unsuspecting pain.


There's also the fact that Kishimoto made it a canon statement. That means that if Jiraiya had known, Kishi would have written it to be so. It is up to us to figure out ways for it to happen...just for fun.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
iirc, in that instance, Pa was talking about why he could not help Naruto enter Sage Mode as was the case with Jiraiya. Hence Naruto had to leave behind clones, or perfect his Sage mode or something.

Knew I wasn't crazy.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Jiraiya enters the belly of a toad, the toad enters, covertly, and Jiraiya does some searching until he finds Pain. Summon, splat. done.


He can also Summon the toad outside the village, once he finds Pain, and then have the gigantic toad....or two, jump from outside the village, right into it.


Should I go on?


I mean, we can script out tons of different ways for Jiraiya to kill an unsuspecting pain.


There's also the fact that Kishimoto made it a canon statement. That means that if Jiraiya had known, Kishi would have written it to be so. It is up to us to figure out ways for it to happen...just for fun. Jiraiya has to get out of the toad to search. And when he does he alerts Nagato. Not to mention summons don't usually fall from the sky anyway.

And that gets pass Shinra Tensei how when its gravity control? It's not like they won't be seen coming down. Summons really aren't the way to go as Pain laid out the strongest Toad without using his strongest attack.

Kisame said Jiraiya would beat both Itachi and Kisame together. Does that make it true? Not a chance.

Originally posted by Kento
Jiraiya has to get out of the toad to search.

No he doesn't. The toad goes where he wants it to.

Originally posted by Kento
And that gets pass Shinra Tensei how when its gravity control? It's not like they won't be seen coming down. Summons really aren't the way to go as Pain laid out the strongest Toad without using his strongest attack.

False premise lead to the wrong conclusion. How can Pain get out a Shinra Tensei if he's dead? An alternate route: how can Deva path do anything if he's dead?

Originally posted by Kento
Kisame said Jiraiya would beat both Itachi and Kisame together. Does that make it true? Not a chance.


I don't believe that at all. Jiraiya could have killed them, no problem.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No he doesn't. The toad goes where he wants it to.



False premise lead to the wrong conclusion. How can Pain get out a Shinra Tensei if he's dead? An alternate route: how can Deva path do anything if he's dead?




I don't believe that at all. Jiraiya could have killed them, no problem. Yes, but Jiraiya doesn't even know where to go, and wouldn't even begin to know. And searching something without even knowing what you're searching is going to fail.

How would Pain get killed? Not by jumping frogs thats for sure. And not by anything Jiraiya can do.

Originally posted by Kento
Yes, but Jiraiya doesn't even know where to go, and wouldn't even begin to know. And searching something without even knowing what you're searching is going to fail.

How do you know? There's nothing to suggest that Jiraiya would have failed. He could have created a clone to draw out Pain...while staying in the toad.

And, Jiraiya DOES know where to go...that's why he ended up in the village.

Originally posted by Kento
How would Pain get killed? Not by jumping frogs thats for sure. And not by anything Jiraiya can do.



lulz

I think so. Pain is frail. He wouldn't suspect it until he was a mashed meat-tatos.

And...a gigantic toad is not the same thing as a little frog.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm aware of this: ergo my saying enraged sage-mode (which is an incompatible dichotomy as I remember papa toad sage saying he couldn't mix the two because the fox's chakra was too volatile or something.)

And, there's nothing that says that it takes the enraged sage-mode to resist Pain, at all. Seems more of a willpower thing, something naruto and Jiraiya have common.
No... we know that the kyuubi's chakra was able to not only resist Pein, but actually it was projected into Nagato instead of the other way around where Pein's Rinnegan chakra is projected into him... Jiraiya simply cannot duplicate that feat, and we know this for a fact because he was unable to stop the rod-swords from projected rinnegan chakra into him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, so now this toad, which jumps out of the sky to an unwitting Pain, and falls on him, and crushes him, is all of a sudden trying to walk into the building? That doesn't really fit well with what we were talking about.
No, i'm saying that Amegakure is mostly narrow towers, and these towers literally do not have enough width to fit a frog of bunta's size within them, regardless of where he enters. Nagato is inside of the buildings.

Originally posted by dadudemon
He meant exactly as I have been describing it: if he knew his secret, he would have definitely pursued other methods of getting at Pain instead of his bodies. Remember that he bodies were almost all in these coffin type thingies with one or two, at most, being up and about. Drop a giant toad on the bodies: they are done. The other one or two go to investigate, another toad drops on the distracted Pain. The aind.
But all of these methods fail due to the fact that Nagato himself possesses power equal to the pein bodies.... Jiraiya can't permanently stop the bodies while Nagato remains alive because he has the same powers that can revive the bodies.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Like I said, there's a million and one ways Jiraiya could execute Pain, if he knew his secret. We could script this all day with many different things simply because Jiraiya has tons of chakra and a sage-mode.
Not really... the point is that Jiraiya has no way of killing Nagato due to having to get rid of the bodies first.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And...a gigantic toad is not the same thing as a little frog. Look what happened to Gamabunta. lol

Originally posted by King Kandy
No... we know that the kyuubi's chakra was able to not only resist Pein, but actually it was projected into Nagato instead of the other way around where Pein's Rinnegan chakra is projected into him... Jiraiya simply cannot duplicate that feat, and we know this for a fact because he was unable to stop the rod-swords from projected rinnegan chakra into him.

T-that's not canon, dude. And, it wasn't his "kyuubi chakra", it was Naruto's will power and rage. His rage brought the Kyuubi chakra to the surface.

You can't just randomly add huge plot altering events to the manga to make a point. Stick with the truth.

And, the feat is willpower, not projecting Kyuubi chakra into someone.


Originally posted by King Kandy
No, i'm saying that Amegakure is mostly narrow towers, and these towers literally do not have enough width to fit a frog of bunta's size within them, regardless of where he enters. Nagato is inside of the buildings.

That's so weird. Why is Jiraiya sending giant toads IN to the city, at all? Read my posts, again.




Here, let me explain:


Jiraiya sneaks about in regular sized frogs.


Does that clear things up?


Originally posted by King Kandy
But all of these methods fail due to the fact that Nagato himself possesses power equal to the pein bodies.... Jiraiya can't permanently stop the bodies while Nagato remains alive because he has the same powers that can revive the bodies.

And magically, all of the bodies teleport into Nagato's hidey-hole, right? Oh, right, they don't. On top of that, Nagato can't revive the bodies if he is already dead....


Originally posted by King Kandy
Not really... the point is that Jiraiya has no way of killing Nagato due to having to get rid of the bodies first.

No, what I said.

The point is Jiraiya doesn't have to kill any of the bodies in order to kill pain. He just has to kill Pain himself. The bodies become useless corpses, after that.

Killing most of the bodies is easy, however.

Originally posted by Kento
Look what happened to Gamabunta. lol

True....but that was out in the open when Pain was ready.


How is Pain going to stop him from falling on him when he isn't aware of him until he is within a few feet of him?

Originally posted by dadudemon
True....but that was out in the open when Pain was ready.


How is Pain going to stop him from falling on him when he isn't aware of him until he is within a few feet of him? I'm pretty sure it would be a lot more than just a few feet from him when he notices a giant large shadow, and shape falling. Not to mention how does that stop them from being repelled be it a few feet or more?

Originally posted by Kento
I'm pretty sure it would be a lot more than just a few feet from him when he notices a giant large shadow, and shape falling. Not to mention how does that stop them from being repelled be it a few feet or more?


How is he supposed to see a shadow when he's hiding like a punk b*tch in a building? awesome


And, he'd notice that he was there because he'd finally recognize, with his rain, that a giant ass toad is about to fall on him. But, no Deva pain to the rescue.


And, if you claim that Pain can use the "force" in his real body....you have to prove it. I can't prove that he can't use it in that body except for the fact that he never used it or did it in any other body except for Deva Path's body.

Originally posted by yungz22
i think he would have taken out five of them but god realm would finish it the 6 paths are chackra puppets, and when there are less of them the remaining ones get more chackra and are then more powerful.

so if pain were smart....

god realm could only do the big gravity shit when nagato stopped transmitting chackra to the other realms, so to beat jiraya he only really needs god realm, asura realm, and hungry ghost to maximize offense and defense.

if that fails (somehow), nagato can just use animal realm to summon hell realm and human realm. animal realm stalemated jiraya for a long time alone, long enough for hell realm to res the other realms.

jiraya is perma-phucked

Originally posted by dadudemon
T-that's not canon, dude. And, it wasn't his "kyuubi chakra", it was Naruto's will power and rage. His rage brought the Kyuubi chakra to the surface.

You can't just randomly add huge plot altering events to the manga to make a point. Stick with the truth.

And, the feat is willpower, not projecting Kyuubi chakra into someone.
Not canon? It happened in the manga, which is the source of canon material...

So basically you're arguing that it was Naruto's "willpower" that caused Nagato to succumb to Kyuubi's chakra, but that somehow the chakra itself was not present? I guess it was Nagato's will as well that causes the rinnegan to appear when people as stabbed, and not the fact that his chakra is transmitted through the rods? Artistically they both appeared the exact same way except the affected character was reversed, but chakra only was used in one of these instants?

And beyond all that, it's irrelevant because when Jiraiya was stabbed, he COULD NOT overcome the chakra disruption. So obviously the same thing would happen in this case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's so weird. Why is Jiraiya sending giant toads IN to the city, at all? Read my posts, again.


Here, let me explain:


Jiraiya sneaks about in regular sized frogs.


Does that clear things up?
You misunderstood. I'm saying he cannot drop giant toads on Nagato because they won't fit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And magically, all of the bodies teleport into Nagato's hidey-hole, right? Oh, right, they don't. On top of that, Nagato can't revive the bodies if he is already dead....
The bodies know where Nagato is, and Jiraiya does not, but you believe that Jiraiya will be able to get there before the bodies? And on top of that, Nagato has Konan to protect him.


Originally posted by dadudemon
No, what I said.

The point is Jiraiya doesn't have to kill any of the bodies in order to kill pain. He just has to kill Pain himself. The bodies become useless corpses, after that.

Killing most of the bodies is easy, however.
He may be able to kill the bodies, but Nagato can just bring them back. Meanwhile Jiraiya has no means of killing Nagato. He couldn't deal with the bodies, so how will he beat someone who has the powers of all six?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not canon? It happened in the manga, which is the source of canon material...

So basically you're arguing that it was Naruto's "willpower" that caused Nagato to succumb to Kyuubi's chakra, but that somehow the chakra itself was not present? I guess it was Nagato's will as well that causes the rinnegan to appear when people as stabbed, and not the fact that his chakra is transmitted through the rods? Artistically they both appeared the exact same way except the affected character was reversed, but chakra only was used in one of these instants?

And beyond all that, it's irrelevant because when Jiraiya was stabbed, he COULD NOT overcome the chakra disruption. So obviously the same thing would happen in this case.


You misunderstood. I'm saying he cannot drop giant toads on Nagato because they won't fit.


The bodies know where Nagato is, and Jiraiya does not, but you believe that Jiraiya will be able to get there before the bodies? And on top of that, Nagato has Konan to protect him.



He may be able to kill the bodies, but Nagato can just bring them back. Meanwhile Jiraiya has no means of killing Nagato. He couldn't deal with the bodies, so how will he beat someone who has the powers of all six?

I'm done with this. I didn't even read your post (not because I don't like you, or something silly) because it's not worth my time. What I said was the most correct. Anything that contradicts that is wrong or not quite as correct as what I said. Yes, I am serious.

If I get bored tomorrow, I might read your reply.

Wow, turn down the douchebag meter, k?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Wow, turn down the douchebag meter, k?
im telling you that the kyubbi behind nagato was to symbolize naruto's willpower.....that form of kyubbi naruto was in isnt even really that strong against decent opponents so that is def not what caused him to resist it was his extreme willpower which has proven time and time again cannot be beaten

Personally i think this fight could go both ways...if you know about pein and all the bodies he is way easier to fight...while many scenarios can be built as to how pein can be beaten the same can be said about jiraiya..... just quit the pein fanboyism and accept it i mean come on rock lee is my favorite character but you dont see me saying he could win in every fight

Originally posted by dadudemon
And, if you claim that Pain can use the "force" in his real body....you have to prove it. I can't prove that he can't use it in that body except for the fact that he never used it or did it in any other body except for Deva Path's body. It's his chakra, and the bodies don't have those abilities before he puppets them. I seriously doubt eyes that can create any move only can use them in puppet bodies. And if all else fails he can still rip out Jiraiya's soul.

Originally posted by yungz22
Personally i think this fight could go both ways...if you know about pein and all the bodies he is way easier to fight...while many scenarios can be built as to how pein can be beaten the same can be said about jiraiya..... just quit the pein fanboyism and accept it i mean come on rock lee is my favorite character but you dont see me saying he could win in every fight I like Jiraiya better but neither are even in my top 5, maybe not even top 10 favorite characters.

Originally posted by Kento
It's his chakra, and the bodies don't have those abilities before he puppets them. I seriously doubt eyes that can create any move only can use them in puppet bodies. And if all else fails he can still rip out Jiraiya's soul.

I like Jiraiya better but neither are even in my top 5, maybe not even top 10 favorite characters. i wasnt necessarily referring to only you there are alot of ppl who think pein cant be beaten which isnt the case

Originally posted by yungz22
im telling you that the kyubbi behind nagato was to symbolize naruto's willpower.....that form of kyubbi naruto was in isnt even really that strong against decent opponents so that is def not what caused him to resist it was his extreme willpower which has proven time and time again cannot be beaten
Whether you think it was kyuubi chakra or not, Jiraiya was unable to duplicate that feat when he was stabbed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Whether you think it was kyuubi chakra or not, Jiraiya was unable to duplicate that feat when he was stabbed.
jiraiya only had one arm he was stabbed making that feat void. what you are trying to say makes no sense its just like saying sasuke can use amaterasu without having a sharingan....we both know thats impossible.

had jiraiya been stabbed in the same spot as naruto then you can compare the two.

Originally posted by yungz22
jiraiya only had one arm he was stabbed making that feat void. what you are trying to say makes no sense its just like saying sasuke can use amaterasu without having a sharingan....we both know thats impossible.

had jiraiya been stabbed in the same spot as naruto then you can compare the two.
WTF kind of sense does that make? I'm not saying Jiraiya couldn't pull it out! I'm saying that even WITHOUT pulling it out, Naruto was able to resist it's effects, while Jiraiya couldn't.

Well Pein still wins. Jiraiya can't sneak around forever and the moment he comes out of hiding all six will be ready to ambush him. Even if he found Nagato first, he would still have to navigate through the towers and still worry about all the other paths gathering for an attack. Jiraiya is still screwed but at least he has some hope this time.

Originally posted by King Kandy
WTF kind of sense does that make? I'm not saying Jiraiya couldn't pull it out! I'm saying that even WITHOUT pulling it out, Naruto was able to resist it's effects, while Jiraiya couldn't.
like i sai when jiraiya was hit his arm was blown off and idk bout you but when an arm is broken you do lose overall strength both physical and mental.... all im saying is when comparing feats you have to take in each persons physical condition at the time.

peins biggest weakness is his secret. if he knows the abilities of all the bodies i think he could win...but based on the scenario youve given i think he can only get up same point naruto was at right before hinata got injured

Originally posted by yungz22
like i sai when jiraiya was hit his arm was blown off and idk bout you but when an arm is broken you do lose overall strength both physical and mental.... all im saying is when comparing feats you have to take in each persons physical condition at the time.
And Naruto had just been impaled by a big rod much larger than the one that pierced Jiraiya... Neither one has a handicap here, and Jiraiya showed that the only time he was pierced, far away from Nagato, he could not resist it... but somehow when in close range, this is supposed to indicate he can? What sense does that make?

Originally posted by King Kandy
And Naruto had just been impaled by a big rod much larger than the one that pierced Jiraiya... Neither one has a handicap here, and Jiraiya showed that the only time he was pierced, far away from Nagato, he could not resist it... but somehow when in close range, this is supposed to indicate he can? What sense does that make?

how is this longer than -
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/03/

this- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/01/


also it doesnt matter how far they are they were both stabbed by chakra disrupters

lol of course it matters how close. Nagato's ability to project chakra decreases as it gets farther than him. This is why he located himself on top of a high point (as Ino's father found out), and why the deva realm couldn't use Chibaku until he was closer to Nagato.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/04/

"THIS CLOSE, I can easily control you with my chakra".

Originally posted by King Kandy
lol of course it matters how close. Nagato's ability to project chakra decreases as it gets farther than him. This is why he located himself on top of a high point (as Ino's father found out), and why the deva realm couldn't use Chibaku until he was closer to Nagato.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/04/

"THIS CLOSE, I can easily control you with my chakra".


ok you got me there but what does how long the pole is have to do with anything

I was saying how thick it is. As in, Jiraiya was injured but Naruto was also injured.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I was saying how thick it is. As in, Jiraiya was injured but Naruto was also injured. -_-

Originally posted by King Kandy
Wow, turn down the douchebag meter, k?

Not the douchebag meter: the arrogant a**hole meter.

Originally posted by Kento
It's his chakra, and the bodies don't have those abilities before he puppets them. I seriously doubt eyes that can create any move only can use them in puppet bodies. And if all else fails he can still rip out Jiraiya's soul.

You have to prove that, though. Where does it state or imply that those abilities are solely Pain's? Anything is better than nothing. From what we see, they are from the bodies.

Things such as the summons may or may not be able to work for Pain: the contract was made with that lady's (dude's) body, so Pain couldn't summon them.

The rocket main dude cyborg thingie: obviously, those abilities are of the body.

The "force" Deva Path powers: why would the logic stop here? It's a unique Kekei Ghenkai to Yohiko.

Etc.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You have to prove that, though. Where does it state or imply that those abilities are solely Pain's? Anything is better than nothing. From what we see, they are from the bodies.

Things such as the summons may or may not be able to work for Pain: the contract was made with that lady's (dude's) body, so Pain couldn't summon them.

The rocket main dude cyborg thingie: obviously, those abilities are of the body.

The "force" Deva Path powers: why would the logic stop here? It's a unique Kekei Ghenkai to Yohiko.

Etc. The eyes he has created ninjutsu.

Anybody can summon. Nagato could summon easily, just probably not the same animals, and that's probably why Female and Male Animal Realm use different ones.

He's a cyborg, his rockets may or may not be a jutsu.

God Realm used Chibaku Tensei. Who created that move? The Sage. Who is the one who is descended from The Sage? Nagato. Yahiko's body is using powers of something that he can't use as it's not his bloodline it's Nagato's.

Then there is Absorbing Pain who Jiraiya fought. You'd think he would have noticed the dude's ability to...well absorb jutsu. But lo and behold he didn't.

Another Pain's power is ripping souls out of people. Just exactly like Nagato did to Hanzo and the others.

Then reviving Pain, who revives the bodies. Exactly like Pain did to the entire village.

Originally posted by dadudemon

The "force" Deva Path powers: why would the logic stop here? It's a unique Kekei Ghenkai to Yohiko.

Etc.

Chronologically, Nagato is the first one to use Shinra Tensei (as far as we know). He uses it just after Yahiko is killed. Yahiko was said to be a master with water ninjutsu or something like that, not gravity-based powers.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/447/02/
&
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/447/03/

Or ya know there is that too...lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
You have to prove that, though. Where does it state or imply that those abilities are solely Pain's? Anything is better than nothing. From what we see, they are from the bodies.

Things such as the summons may or may not be able to work for Pain: the contract was made with that lady's (dude's) body, so Pain couldn't summon them.

The rocket main dude cyborg thingie: obviously, those abilities are of the body.

The "force" Deva Path powers: why would the logic stop here? It's a unique Kekei Ghenkai to Yohiko.

Etc.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/01/

"He who controls the rinnegan is a master of all six Pein's techniques".

Can't get much clearer than that.

How does any of this help Jiraiya? I just want to know because although the evidence provided so far is making Pein more of a beatable opponent, it doesn't mean that Jiraiya has any hope in a rematch. Or maybe I should read some of the other posts again, I don't know.

Originally posted by King Kandy
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/01/

"He who controls the rinnegan is a master of all six Pein's techniques".

Can't get much clearer than that.


1. It's quite clear that it was a saying/myth, not a statement of his power.

2. The 6th paths happened to be real entites of people with abilities that carried over from their actual "alive" selves.

3. It's also quite clear that it was saying that he was master over the 6 paths, meaning, he is literally the controller of the very real and physical 6th paths: actual bodies.



However, I concede that point beceause he is seen using the "force." smilie



Still doesn't change the fact that Pain goes down faster than a crack ho, if Jiraiya knew of his "secret."

It is still up to you guys to prove that Pain can react within seconds of someone entering his rain. Can Pain discern what it is, within 2-3 seconds? Can he discern it to the point of being able to move out of the way? That was never shown. Since canon has Jiraiya beating Pain, we can only assume in favor for Jiraiya beating Pain.


Again, that was just one scripted way he could beat Pain. There's always the ground...n'stuff.

But that "scripted" way, had him working immensely out of character.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is still up to you guys to prove that Pain can react within seconds of someone entering his rain. Can Pain discern what it is, within 2-3 seconds? Can he discern it to the point of being able to move out of the way? That was never shown. Since canon has Jiraiya beating Pain, we can only assume in favor for Jiraiya beating Pain.


Again, that was just one scripted way he could beat Pain. There's always the ground...n'stuff. He can react faster than Jiraiya can. That much is pretty clear with Jiraiya being tooled in h2h. And as for falling giant toads, yea pretty simple to just Shinra Tensei them. Won't be hard to do. Statements doesn't make something true. Vegeta would be the strongest. Freeza would be the strongest. Jiraiya would be able to beat Kisame, Pain, and Itachi all at once. There are so many statements made in manga that doesn't mean they are true. It's just statements without facts. Nothing Jiraiya showed, going all out, proves he can win.

simple fact is god realm (whom jiraya didn't have the pleasure of fighting) would phuck him up alone, the other paths just make it overkill.

Pain would still maul him.

Originally posted by Kento
He can react faster than Jiraiya can. That much is pretty clear with Jiraiya being tooled in h2h. And as for falling giant toads, yea pretty simple to just Shinra Tensei them. Won't be hard to do. Statements doesn't make something true. Vegeta would be the strongest. Freeza would be the strongest. Jiraiya would be able to beat Kisame, Pain, and Itachi all at once. There are so many statements made in manga that doesn't mean they are true. It's just statements without facts. Nothing Jiraiya showed, going all out, proves he can win.

He didn't react faster, per se. He did have him on ninjutsu beacuse Jiraiya was being viewed from all angles.


Reaction speed, I'd still give it to Jiraiya.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Pain would still maul him.


Is it DIIIIIIIIIIISSSS? awesome

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/mauled.jpg

Originally posted by dadudemon
He didn't react faster, per se. He did have him on ninjutsu beacuse Jiraiya was being viewed from all angles.


Reaction speed, I'd still give it to Jiraiya. Human realm blocked his punches quite easily. He'd have to have at least the same reaction time if not faster to do it so easily. Just being able to see it wouldn't do it.

Maybe Pain meant that frog song could have won it if all the bodies were on the table at once, but he wasted it on three prematurely.

But without the frog song he couldn't have even matched the first three bodies.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But without the frog song he couldn't have even matched the first three bodies.

The song affects anyone who hears it though. I dont think it makes much difference if three bodies hear it or six bodies hear it. Nagato was even in the jutsu himself, its just that the three bodies were there to be physically killed while the other three were absent. If all six were present then I feel all six would be dead.

But if not for the frog song, there would not have been any need to call in the other three. Jiraiya would have just fought with the first three until he died.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But if not for the frog song, there would not have been any need to call in the other three. Jiraiya would have just fought with the first three until he died.

Indeed, but if Pain starts with 6 and Jiraiya gets the frog song off it would one shot them all. However, Jiraiya would likely die before busting out frog song. I see NO WAY he can contend with Deva on the field. I'd still give it to Pain. Just saying the frog song is kind of broken if you arent expecting it.

Jiraiya would probably get the heck out of there if he knows the secret and knows there are three more bodies waiting to come out. He'd know he cant win...I think he can escape with his life at best in this scenario.

But pein won't start with 6. He'll start with animal realm, then the other two, and then all six if he needs to, just like the first time.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But pein won't start with 6. He'll start with animal realm, then the other two, and then all six if he needs to, just like the first time.

Yeah, well lets just say he goes with an early frog song since he knows that works, kills three, then just camps their bodies until the other three pop out. He'd need another frog song to take out the other three but he'd get shinra tensei'd before that happened since Pain would realize how dangerous it is at that point. Pain was probably still tramautized by frog song when he said Jiraiya would win if he knew the secret. Kid didnt recover yet and was still shaken...

The only way for Jiraiya to win is if Jiraiya calls out the other three bodies, perhaps Pain would accept the challenge and get frog songed. I can see him taking it like that. The key is having six on the field when the frog song hits. I don't know if Jiraiya has a powerful technique that would force the other three bodies out so he's gonna have to talk Nagato into busting them out..

The frogs throats are too hurt after the song to perform it twice in a row. So camping is no good.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The frogs throats are too hurt after the song to perform it twice in a row. So camping is no good.

Only chance is to call out those other bodies then...I don't know if Nagato will accept. I know Nagato would be shocked that Jiraiya figured out there are six bodies, but I'm not sure if he would put them on the field if he thinks three is sufficient.

Even if they could do a second song I dont think Pain is dumb enough to let it happen again....is he?

If all six of the pains fought him at once they get beat. Jiraiya's genjutsu would stop them all the same and he would still kill them all.

Pretty much no one could stop that technique considering Jiraiya is strong enough to fight them while Ma and Pa charge the genjutsu.

God realm is too strong for jiraiya alone. That doesnt make him weak by any means its just the 6 paths are devastating 6v 1

Originally posted by chasedown
God realm is too strong for jiraiya alone. That doesnt make him weak by any means its just the 6 paths are devastating 6v 1

Um, base Naruto with a bunch of clones broke through Almighty push. I'm sure Jiraiya in sage mode would scoff at its futility.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Um, base Naruto with a bunch of clones broke through Almighty push. I'm sure Jiraiya in sage mode would scoff at its futility.


They were both extremely weakened at that point and there is no evidence of jiraiya being able to create the amount of shadow clones naruto can.

Ppl forget that naruto would have lost that fight if it werent for the kyubbi