Venom vs Cheetah (Minerva) slugfest

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Omega Vision
Cheetah's speed is cut down to Spider-Man levels.

Who wins?

Q99
Cheetah, easily. She's way tougher and stronger.

carver9
I give this to venom. To versatile.

Q99
Originally posted by carver9
I give this to venom. To versatile.

What's he going to do? She's strong enough to break webbing/has claws that can cut it, and physical to physical she outmatches him badly in strength and can take a heck of a lot more defensively. Skilled fighter too.

carver9
Originally posted by Q99
What's he going to do? She's strong enough to break webbing/has claws that can cut it, and physical to physical she outmatches him badly in strength and can take a heck of a lot more defensively. Skilled fighter too.

He can turn invisible and grow in height and do numerous of things or he could just simply take over her body. He can also suffocate her, put a thousand spike around his body so that she wont be able to touch him, etc....

Q99
Originally posted by carver9
He can turn invisible and grow in height and do numerous of things or he could just simply take over her body. He can also suffocate her, put a thousand spike around his body so that she wont be able to touch him, etc....

She has super-senses that'll make detecting him not a problem even invisible, she can slice apart symbiont tendrils and such if he tried to suffocate her, and generally kill him quite messily for trying. Even grown he's quite a bit weaker.

Spikes is nice, but it's not so nice when it results in some small cuts that her healing factor will manage in no time in exchange for a ripped out heart when she decides to go for it anyway, y'know? In marvel terms she'd be a class-100+ with adamantium claws.

Lord Feron
Originally posted by Q99
In marvel terms she'd be a class-100+ with adamantium claws.

laughing out loud damn where do these guys come from...

Q99
Originally posted by Lord Feron
laughing out loud damn where do these guys come from...

Well, remember- she's a *Wonder Woman* villain who's come close to killing Diana on a few occasions smile Most WW villains pack at least some physical might, and the biggies tend to be really strong.

carver9
Originally posted by Q99
Well, remember- she's a *Wonder Woman* villain who's come close to killing Diana on a few occasions smile Most WW villains pack at least some physical might, and the biggies tend to be really strong.


I still wouldnt say that she's class 100 and I also dont think that her claws is as strong as you say they are.

JakeTheBank
Depends on how magic affects the symbiote, imo.

galactusischere
Cheetah stomps

Lord Feron
Originally posted by Q99
Well, remember- she's a *Wonder Woman* villain who's come close to killing Diana on a few occasions smile Most WW villains pack at least some physical might, and the biggies tend to be really strong.

no its just funny how you used "marvel-speak" and your comparisons was a little too off which caused some amusement.

Anyway i think Cheetah would beat Venom. H2H combat skills are good and so is her relexes & speed. IMO her strength is no where close to cl100. Unless you have scans of some serious strength and no "she is a WW villian" is not enough for me (nor should it be for anyone imo).

Q99
Originally posted by carver9
I still wouldnt say that she's class 100 and I also dont think that her claws is as strong as you say they are.

Well they can carve Superman and Wonder Woman and other stuff, and she can go strength to strength against top tiers and not come out too badly.



Well, DC doesn't have strength classes, just terms like "Alpha-1" strength (and even then, like, 5~ characters are rated), so might as well use Marvel's.





I do smile

Right here. It's the male Cheetah who stole Minerva's power temporarily, but he wasn't any more powerful than she was and was eventually killed by her. Both Superman's comment and slamming him around with the tail (and punching him through a lot of stuff to get there).

tideoftime
Originally posted by Lord Feron
no its just funny how you used "marvel-speak" and your comparisons was a little too off which caused some amusement.

Anyway i think Cheetah would beat Venom. H2H combat skills are good and so is her relexes & speed. IMO her strength is no where close to cl100. Unless you have scans of some serious strength and no "she is a WW villian" is not enough for me (nor should it be for anyone imo).

When Cheetah was first rebooted after CoIE, she was in the SpiderMan or so category of strength; since then, she has improved dramatically (as the one scan of (male) Cheetah vs. Superman where Supes remarks on how the Cheetah "hits like Diana... or Captain Marvel" indicates -- the recent 5 years of Barbara Minerva's Cheetah is even faster/more powerful than Sebastian's was...). While Supes statement may be a slight bit of hyperbole in terms of "todays" scaling (I don't see Barbara picking up a skyscraper anytime soon), in Old-School Marvel terminolgy, she is most definitely Class100 strength. Still, it is her speed that is the clincher here: she isn't going to "play" with Venom, in a forum fight, as she often does with many of her opponents in a "story" fight: she will literally rip him apart in fractions of a second. He won't have time to mount a viable counter-strike. And even if he got the drop on her, she is very durable nowadays, and could take blows that might fell a "lesser" metahuman (such as Spiderman, relatively speaking). Her claws aren't as durable as adamantium, but conceptually it is accurate to picture Wolverine fighting with a combat speed approaching that of the Flash's, and while her HF isn't like Logan's, her durability is a measure better.

Venom does have versatility, though, and is still a tough cookie...

Barbara: 8/10.

Q99
Here/are scans from their very first fight. She was around as strong as Wonder Woman even then.

Btw, *this* Cheetah, Barbara Minerva, is purely post-Crisis, those scans were shortly after the reboot. The earlier Cheetahs were different, weaker characters, which may be who you're thinking of, or animated Cheetah, who's biologically enhanced rather than a god-champion and more on that level. Minerva hasn't had a lot of powerups. Mostly just how easy she can transform into Cheetah, and the recent speed boost.


---

Really, the only thing preventing Minerva from being top tier is that she has no flight or side abilities, just speed, strength, toughness, and claws. But in those she's at or near top tier in each.

-K-M-
I see this pretty much going the same way "Northstar" vs. Venom went

Starscream M
Originally posted by -K-M-
I see this pretty much going the same way "Northstar" vs. Venom went you didn't read the OP, did you? erm

JakeTheBank
Wait, is this the sucky Venom?

I mean, Cheetah should win regardless, but I need to know whether it's Gargan or Brock getting beat here.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Starscream M
you didn't read the OP, did you? erm

I didn't actually, my mistake.

galactusischere
What strenght class is Cheetah in?

Q99
Originally posted by galactusischere
What strenght class is Cheetah in?

Near-Wonder Woman's, so that'd be class 100, Alpha class, whatever you want to call it.

And just as importantly, she's in the same toughness class. Trying to suffocate her is about the only thing that a Venom could do that might work, because those punches sure won't.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Q99
Here/are scans from their very first fight. She was around as strong as Wonder Woman even then.

Btw, *this* Cheetah, Barbara Minerva, is purely post-Crisis, those scans were shortly after the reboot. The earlier Cheetahs were different, weaker characters, which may be who you're thinking of, or animated Cheetah, who's biologically enhanced rather than a god-champion and more on that level. Minerva hasn't had a lot of powerups. Mostly just how easy she can transform into Cheetah, and the recent speed boost.

While the others' may need the scans, I certainly don't; bought the issue when it originally came out. *Contextually*, she was about as strong (more or less), as Spiderman on the Old Marvel Scaling; Diana, in those early Perez issues, wasn't demonstrating massive strength, herself, either. Just a few issues before that, she had great difficulty lassoing/stopping a dropped nuclear warhead from a plane -- not rocket propelled, merely dropped, and as she said/thought herself it "nearly ripped my arms off"- thus not even qualifying at that time as Cl100 strength, in terms of old school reference points. That's because Diana, as a character, was still quite a ways off from coming into her greater power. Nearly 25 years later, Diana can fart and missles turn aside. It's all relative to the setting/scaling of the writer at the time.

My comparitive scaling is accurate; Cheetah post-crisis wasn't that strong on the meta-scale; nowadays, she is (though much of her striking power is still due largely to uber-speed and mystical endowment). If you go back and check out the issues around those you are referencing, you'll see I'm right. Unlike some people around here (not meaning you, just *certain* people), I don't make comparatives like that unless I *know* I have read many issues regarding the character in question.

EDIT: However, because I just logged out and back in, I noticed I did make the common mistake of not reading the OP's conditions -- bad me. If Barbara's speed is reduced to Spiderman's, then Venom has a better chance. I still give it to her, marginally. Venom can make some impressive wins, still, as her speed is really the key to many of her victory's. (Of course, if she doesn't have her speed, then she really isn't the "Cheetah", as a character...)

Q99
Originally posted by tideoftime
While the others' may need the scans, I certainly don't; bought the issue when it originally came out. *Contextually*, she was about as strong (more or less), as Spiderman on the Old Marvel Scaling; Diana, in those early Perez issues, wasn't demonstrating massive strength, herself, either. Just a few issues before that, she had great difficulty lassoing/stopping a dropped nuclear warhead from a plane -- not rocket propelled, merely dropped, and as she said/thought herself it "nearly ripped my arms off"- thus not even qualifying at that time as Cl100 strength, in terms of old school reference points. That's because Diana, as a character, was still quite a ways off from coming into her greater power. Nearly 25 years later, Diana can fart and missles turn aside. It's all relative to the setting/scaling of the writer at the time.


Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."


It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.


And still, we aren't dealing with 'start of post-Crisis' Cheetah. This is *modern* Cheetah. Class 100, can take full blasts from Black Lightning and Firehawk, tussle with modern Superman and Diana Cheetah. She doesn't need to use speed, if she just trades punches Venom'll be a smear and she'll shrug everything he's got.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."


It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.

Yeah, a lot of characters have been portrayed as a far cry under their Pre-Crisis versions after the reboot. Diana wasn't displaying strength on the level she displays now. Captain Marvel is another good example. For most of the Jerry Ordway PoS ongoing series in the 90's, CM hardly ever displays Superman-level strength/durability/speed save against his brief scuffle with Superman himself.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."


It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.


And still, we aren't dealing with 'start of post-Crisis' Cheetah. This is *modern* Cheetah. Class 100, can take full blasts from Black Lightning and Firehawk, tussle with modern Superman and Diana Cheetah. She doesn't need to use speed, if she just trades punches Venom'll be a smear and she'll shrug everything he's got.

Well, yes, of course; I wasn't saying anything contrary to that. And as far as this scenario's "reduced speed", like I posted above: I still give it to Barbara to win, just without her uberspeed, Venom does have a chance at some wins (not huge, mind you, but I do give Venom some credit as a character...)

No hard feelings -- not "disaggreeing" with you, per se, just clarifying my position. Shake hands? smile

SamZED
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."


It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.


And still, we aren't dealing with 'start of post-Crisis' Cheetah. This is *modern* Cheetah. Class 100, can take full blasts from Black Lightning and Firehawk, tussle with modern Superman and Diana Cheetah. She doesn't need to use speed, if she just trades punches Venom'll be a smear and she'll shrug everything he's got. It depends, how well is her telepathy resistance? Also suffocating her should be an option as well, I don't see how's she gonna prevent a dozen tendrils moving at bullet speed from suffocating her. As for her punches turning Venom into a smear, it depends on which Venom. Gargan yeah agreed. Brcok, nope. He can take her punches easilly. The thing is, his durability level is far greater comparing to his strength level, plus he has a HF.

Q99
Originally posted by SamZED
It depends, how well is her telepathy resistance? Also suffocating her should be an option as well, I don't see how's she gonna prevent a dozen tendrils moving at bullet speed from suffocating her. As for her punches turning Venom into a smear, it depends on which Venom. Gargan yeah agreed. Brcok, nope. He can take her punches easilly. The thing is, his durability level is far greater than his strength, plus he has a HF.

Pretty good, like a lot of godly types. At the least, I've never seen her mind controlled, and there are some telepaths in WW's gallery that she's met.

Slice up the tendrils? Hit him flying so hard she's out of reach?

And even if not punching, there's ripping and tearing. That's always good.

She has a healing factor too, btw. That tail's regenerated from nothing a few times, for example.

SamZED
Originally posted by Q99
Pretty good, like a lot of godly types. At the least, I've never seen her mind controlled, and there are some telepaths in WW's gallery that she's met.

Slice up the tendrils? Hit him flying so hard she's out of reach?

And even if not punching, there's ripping and tearing. That's always good.

She has a healing factor too, btw. That tail's regenerated from nothing a few times, for example. Has anyone even tried to mind controle her before? Because symbiotes have effected even godly types before. She'd need to have a pretty darn good tp resistance feats.

Ripping and tearing wont cut it, Venom's regrown an arm once in 2 seconds. Besides its kinda hard to ripp a livving goo apart. And there's no way she could cut a few dozen tendrils that move faster than bullets, not with Spider-man's speed.

Doctor-Alvis
Is it really telepathy or is it like a biological interface?

SamZED
Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Is it really telepathy or is it like a biological interface? I guess both. But the symbiote has displayed ability to read minds even at a distance, mindraped several characters and used mind controle.

Q99
Originally posted by SamZED
Has anyone even tried to mind controle her before? Because symbiotes have effected even godly types before. She'd need to have a pretty darn good tp resistance feats.

I think Psycho has.

Doesn't a symbiont taking over someone new also involve leaving the old one, though? So you wouldn't have Venom victorious. You'd have Eddie Brock and Venom-Cheetah.



And if instead of ripping an arm, she rips a head or heart? Because she will go for the kill.



She can slice through the majority of them (it's not like Cheetah needs to block them, there's cutting after they've grabbed on), but there's also just powering through.

SamZED
Originally posted by Q99
I think Psycho has.

Doesn't a symbiont taking over someone new also involve leaving the old one, though? So you wouldn't have Venom victorious. You'd have Eddie Brock and Venom-Cheetah. Not necessary, it can mindcontrole another being without leaving it's host. I still think mindrape is still an option. Symbiotes have taken over even chars with crazy tp resistance.

Originally posted by Q99

And if instead of ripping an arm, she rips a head or heart? Because she will go for the kill. As I said it aint easy to ripp a livving goo apart. I remember when Brock fought She-Hulk she couldn't get a grip on him cause he'd stretch his body mr. Fantastic style.


Originally posted by Q99

She can slice through the majority of them (it's not like Cheetah needs to block them, there's cutting after they've grabbed on), but there's also just powering through. Fair enough, but what about other vulnerable spots? Eyes? Ears? She can't protect all at the same time, easpecially since Venom can hld her arms while attacking with tendrils.

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